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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Pacts With The Devil Posted by: Tiffany Jun 11 2004, 07:23 AM I have been debating with a Satanist on another boardhttp://www.cenobite.com/forum/ and he talks a lot about Satanism being it's own religion and that it does not promote Christianity, "If more people feared Satan this world wouldn't be as %$#@ up as it is." I have been trying to tell him that people fearing Satan is the reason things are so bad in the world. Check out my debate and tell me what you think, On ether board. Here is the link to the thread, His user name is Baphomithttp://www.cenobite.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=4544 Posted by: R.C. Jun 11 2004, 07:30 AM QUOTE (Tiffany @ Jun 11 2004, 07:23 AM) I have been debating with a Satanist on another boardhttp://www.cenobite.com/forum/ and he talks a lot about Satanism being it's own religion and that it does not promote Christianity, "If more people feared Satan this world wouldn't be as %$#@ up as it is." I have been trying to tell him that people fearing Satan is the reason things are so bad in the world. Check out my debate and tell me what you think, On ether board. Here is the link to the thread, His user name is Baphomithttp://www.cenobite.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=4544 I thought satanist did'nt believe in a literal satan. RC Posted by: Tiffany Jun 11 2004, 07:50 AM I posted this: QUOTE I do not believe in the devil or Satan because they were created as a means to control. Just like the media tells you everyday to fear, Fear, FEAR, the evil terrorists to get your vote for the Republican party, the bible tells you to fear, Fear, FEAR, the devil so you will stay afraid of Gods wrath and there for stay under control of the church. Anyone who believes in Satan believes in the dogma that created him. and he posted this in reply: QUOTE Oh, but Tiffany, it is that very fear seething in the unconscious that makes the pacts so much more psychologically liberating. I think you might enjoy reading Black's and Hyatt's book that I linked to above. It's not true that anyone who believes in Satan believes in the dogma that created him. It depends on how you define Satan. Making pacts with Satan and/or his 'demons' is about overcoming fear and social programming. It sounds like it would be right up your alley. So I think he does believe in the literal Satan. Posted by: Joshua Jun 11 2004, 08:11 AM Well, Christianity is the parent of Satanism, so in a way I guess one could say they are Christians or at least inspired by Christianity. I think Satanism is just a way to rebel against mainstream Christianity. A belief in Satan is more ridiculous than a belief in God. Posted by: Lokmer Jun 11 2004, 08:19 AM There are basically two kinds of Satanism: LeVeyan Satanism is basically a repackaging of Alastair Crowley's work, which is essentially hermetic astrological self-diefication. It does not believe in a literal Satan, but does practice black magic. The other kind of Satanism believes in a literal god or demi-god named Satan, and is basically a Christian heresy. -Lokmer Posted by: Joshua Jun 11 2004, 08:23 AM I always found that funny one version of Satanism came from Crowley's work since Crowley himself was not a Satanist nor did he ever claim to he one. Most Satanists will claim, though, that he was the quintessential Satanist. Posted by: PseudoGod Jun 11 2004, 10:15 AM QUOTE It's not true that anyone who believes in Satan believes in the dogma that created him. It depends on how you define Satan. Making pacts with Satan and/or his 'demons' is about overcoming fear and social programming I don't see how this is any different than Christianity. Making pacts with Jesus is about overcoming fear (of death, of god's wrath, etc.), and social programming (i.e. "secular" programming, the "liberal media", etc). All Satanists are doing is replacing one invisible friend with another. I actually don't even have a problem with people that need invisible friends to get them through life, what I do have a problem with is when those invisible friends insist on imposing their will on others. Posted by: Heavenly Deceit Jun 11 2004, 10:36 AM I'm Modern Satanist, I do not believe in a being called Satan just as I don't believe in one called the toothfairy. Satan is a representation of what the Chruch/Christianity considers evil, basically just human nature. Posted by: Guest Jun 11 2004, 11:06 AM QUOTE (Heavenly Deceit @ Jun 11 2004, 10:36 AM) I'm Modern Satanist, I do not believe in a being called Satan just as I don't believe in one called the toothfairy. Satan is a representation of what the Chruch/Christianity considers evil, basically just human nature. That is a really cool Avatar I must say Posted by: Tiffany Jun 12 2004, 01:52 AM That guest post was me BTW, I forgot to log in My Debate has stopped, The Satanist didn't want to continue. I guess he was a novice in the debate world. Thanks for all your help Love ya, -Tiffany- Posted by: SaviorForSale Jun 12 2004, 02:32 PM I THINK: The satanists that DO believe in Satan are just angry Christians... If you believe in Satan then you have to also believe in God. therefore you know that you are on the bad side and are trying to be rebelious. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jun 12 2004, 05:19 PM It's the goofiest thing anyone can ever say to say that Satanists are Christians. Amost as goofy as saying that you are a satanist, but don't believe in Satan. Posted by: Fweethawt Jun 12 2004, 05:22 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 12 2004, 09:19 PM) It's the goofiest thing anyone can ever say to say that Satanists are Christians. Amost as goofy as saying that you are a satanist, but don't believe in Satan. Jimmy, If you know anything about Satanist, you should know that they do not consider Satan to be an actual being. Satanism is a concept and lifestyle, not worship and religion. Posted by: Joshua Jun 12 2004, 08:32 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 12 2004, 05:19 PM) It's the goofiest thing anyone can ever say to say that Satanists are Christians. Amost as goofy as saying that you are a satanist, but don't believe in Satan. Where did the concept of Satanism come from then? Posted by: Tiffany Jun 12 2004, 10:51 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 12 2004, 07:19 PM) It's the goofiest thing anyone can ever say to say that Satanists are Christians. Amost as goofy as saying that you are a satanist, but don't believe in Satan. A Christian is one who believes Jesus Christ is the Lord and savor and that he died for your sins......right? So, The literal (true to the bible) Satanists would in fact be Christians, would they not? Because they believe in Jesus they just hate him. Read what I wrote to Baphomet: Yes, Christians do believe in Satan as a living being. They believe him to live in the center of the earth, and that he is a fallen angel who wants to corrupt and turn enough souls to amass an army so he can march them onto the world and begin the final war against God and his followers (Armageddon). The main argument of all Christians is, "God is going to win this war so you better be on our side or you'll find yourself burning in hell forever." Have you ever seen Stephen Kings The Stand? This movie pretty much sums up what all "God fearing" Christians believe is going to happen in the end of days. These people want the world to believe in Satan so much that they made up a story of these miners who in the middle of there drilling started to hear screams and cries for help, they stopped there drilling and recorded the voices coming from underneath the very bottom of the mine. Some very powerful evangelical Christians say this is a real recording of hell it's self. They also claim Satan spoke to Jesus and tried to get him to deny God with several tempting offerings. They really what to make it clear to all that Satan is real and if you don't follow the Lord you will become one of his victims. Now becoming a Satanist will only tell the world what the Christians want them to hear, "Satan is real just look at the following he has already, you better join us now because it won't be long before Armageddon is here." So you see that by becoming a Satanist you are actually helping to spread Christianity, and it's religions like these that are the reason the world is so messed up. Posted by: Heavenly Deceit Jun 13 2004, 03:42 AM QUOTE So you see that by becoming a Satanist you are actually helping to spread Christianity, and it's religions like these that are the reason the world is so messed up. Every Non-Christian help spreads Christianity. Christians find it their job to convert, the more non-believers, the more they'll work to try and convert people. The Bible states those who deny God are already blinded by Satan, so your theory applies to nearly every belief and religion that doesn't center on God. As long as there are non-believers, christians will convert, or atleast try. Posted by: Tiffany Jun 13 2004, 05:52 AM QUOTE (Heavenly Deceit @ Jun 13 2004, 05:42 AM) Every Non-Christian help spreads Christianity. Christians find it their job to convert, the more non-believers, the more they'll work to try and convert people. The Bible states those who deny God are already blinded by Satan, so your theory applies to nearly every belief and religion that doesn't center on God. As long as there are non-believers, christians will convert, or atleast try. I never even thought of that.......... OH MY GOD!!! Look over there. *takes opportunity to run and hide* Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 13 2004, 09:31 AM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 12 2004, 06:19 PM) It's the goofiest thing anyone can ever say to say that Satanists are Christians. Amost as goofy as saying that you are a satanist, but don't believe in Satan. Well, satan is part of the xtian myth, is it not? You might say that baaaad xtians are satanists but it is still all part of xtianity. See how silly the whole concept is? You know a few years ago on the news they were talking about kids who were stringing up neighborhood cats, torturing, then killing them. People were outraged, and rightfully so. But people also made asses out of themselves. When interviewed they were angry and demanding to know where children were learning this kind of behavior! They just had to be satan worshipers, where else could they even conceive of such an idea? I remember screaming at my TV... "Where do you THINK they learned this behavior you asswipes! Where?" Holy crap, how stupid. Just where do little children learn to find an innocent creature, hang it up on something, torture it and kill it? Where would someone learn such horror? Why xtianity, of course. Not satanism, xtianity gets full credit for this one. So if you want to write of 'goofy' behavior, let's get honest here. Xtianity wins the prize on goofy behavior. Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 13 2004, 09:37 AM QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Jun 12 2004, 06:22 PM) Satanism is a concept and lifestyle, not worship and religion. Very true. There is a great difference between someone who is a satan worshiper vs. a satanist. Usually those who worship satan are the bumbling little xtian buttwads who are rebelling against Momma and Daddy. They think they are satanists but the truth is they don't even know what a satanist is! Satanists are a totally different breed. I don't have a lot of respect for satanists and I disagree with much of their thinking but they are not satan worshiping a-holes unlike xtian teens rebelling against their family and church. But when we really get serious, how dangerous is it to worship a mythical dude? The danger comes into play when they start acting out the OT. Only difference is that they think they are getting direction from the mythical devil vs. the mythical baby butcher of a gawd. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jun 13 2004, 07:28 PM Tiffany wrote: QUOTE A Christian is one who believes Jesus Christ is the Lord and savor and that he died for your sins......right? So, The literal (true to the bible) Satanists would in fact be Christians, would they not? Because they believe in Jesus they just hate him. Tiffany, One doesn't become a Christian merely by believing those things. If that were true, the demons would be Christians. The book of James says: 2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Christians not only believe, but they also DO the will of God. Here's a verse from Matthew 7: 21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So forget Satanist as Christians. If you go by this verse, there are a lot of Christians who are not Christians. Posted by: Tiffany Jun 14 2004, 02:06 AM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 13 2004, 09:28 PM) Tiffany wrote: QUOTE A Christian is one who believes Jesus Christ is the Lord and savor and that he died for your sins......right? So, The literal (true to the bible) Satanists would in fact be Christians, would they not? Because they believe in Jesus they just hate him. Tiffany, One doesn't become a Christian merely by believing those things. If that were true, the demons would be Christians. The book of James says: 2:19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Christians not only believe, but they also DO the will of God. Here's a verse from Matthew 7: 21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So forget Satanist as Christians. If you go by this verse, there are a lot of Christians who are not Christians. Such a confusing religion, I think that's why I dropped it some time ago. If there is only one God and he does all the mean things the bible says he does, and will do then who needs him. If Satan is the opposite of the Christian God then maybe he is all loving and all forgiving, God knows God sure isn't. Good point about works VS. faith but I'm sure there are contradictions somewhere in the bible about this. I'll have to dig them up for you........later. Posted by: Quicksand Jun 14 2004, 09:02 AM QUOTE Christians not only believe, but they also DO the will of God. No they don't. They do what ever they want. Do chrisitans: Mattew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Jimmy, you type in brail right? or do they: Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. ...kill their Childern for smartin off? C'mon on now- Let's do the will of GOD! Posted by: JimmyDtD Jun 14 2004, 07:33 PM Tiffany, it is as simple as this. from John 10:10 10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. The "thief" is Satan. Jesus is speaking about himself. Posted by: Tiffany Jun 14 2004, 08:27 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jun 14 2004, 09:33 PM) Tiffany, it is as simple as this. from John 10:10 10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. The "thief" is Satan. Jesus is speaking about himself. I used to be a follower of Jesus, really! I have a tattoo to prove it, but I have read and seen the cruelty of what it means to follow such lies. Only by following my own beliefs have I found truth and freedom from pain and bigotry. Jesus was a power hungry wannabe king who had his crown stolen from him, boo hoo, let's get over some Jewish reformer who died 2004 years ago. Open-mindedness is my savior, and my Gods will take care of me, suicide or no, I am a child of the planet earth not America, not Jesus. What I fear about Christians the most is that God said the world will end in Armageddon, so if you are a good Christian you will do your best to bring about the end of the world, because the Lord thy God said in the bible that this is what is to come. Is this what bush is doing? Maybe, I don't believe the world to end in such a way so I must stop those who wish to destroy the earth in the name of God. P.S. Doctor Satan says let the world be safe, peaceful and free from God. Posted by: Cerise Jun 14 2004, 08:31 PM Yikes Tiff! That is one scary looking dude. Of course, it's after midnight and I've just eaten some questionable cottage cheese...so maybe any picture would look scary at the moment. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jun 15 2004, 08:49 PM Tiffany, If you are considering suicide, armageddon is the last thing you should worry about. I don't know where you got your ideas about Jesus. I've been on this site for a while, and heard a lot of things, but never heard him called "power hungry." Posted by: BlueGiant Jun 15 2004, 09:49 PM Actually, Crowley may not have been a satanist, but most of the occidental modern magickal traditions come out of his work, and owe him some debt one way or another. His stuff is more oriented towards hermeticism than anything else, and often finds itself incorporated into other systems. Posted by: Killswitch Jun 15 2004, 09:55 PM QUOTE Christians not only believe, but they also DO the will of God. No they don't. They do what ever they want. Do chrisitans: Mattew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. Jimmy, you type in brail right? or do they: Matthew 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. ...kill their Childern for smartin off? C'mon on now- Let's do the will of GOD! Again, i have to get on this thread for a minute, even though my response will be ignored. .. Jimmy. This, my friend, is why I personally cant believe any more. A "christian" Chooses to ignore scriptures like this, with a standard comment such as "its a metaphor" and yet insists on taking other parts of the bible straight, bone-stock truth. Why is it you always ignore the posts that are actually pertinent to a conversation? Posted by: Tiffany Jun 16 2004, 03:54 AM QUOTE Yikes Tiff! That is one scary looking dude. Of course, it's after midnight and I've just eaten some questionable cottage cheese...so maybe any picture would look scary at the moment. LOL!...That is Doctor Satan from the movie House of 1000 corpses, very good movie BTW. QUOTE Tiffany, If you are considering suicide, armageddon is the last thing you should worry about. I don't know where you got your ideas about Jesus. I've been on this site for a while, and heard a lot of things, but never heard him called "power hungry." I think Jesus was no different then all the Kings of his time, they all made up super fantastic stories of great adventure, Terrible enemies and a glorious victory. Alexander the great had a story very similar, the only problem was Jesus was trying to reclaim his thrown and couldn't so there was no great victory to be had, or was there? I think Jesus did a very good job of turning the oppressed people against the powerful Jewish Overlords of that time but I think all this, "chosen one" stuff came from him trying to turn the people of the time to his cause, everyone would lie a little if you were trying to get someone to follow you instead of the current king (that is in your mind illegal anyway). Suicide, yes, I have some problems but I'm not worried about myself when it comes to Armageddon, I'm worried about the rest of humanity. If the world isn't careful they might give power to a Super Christian who thinks he has to bring about the end of the world so Jesus can come back. Bush said him self that God is on his side in the war on Islam Oops, I mean "Terror". Posted by: Guest Jun 16 2004, 07:11 AM Hey Christ Is Lord, have you made any pacts with the devil lately? Posted by: Killswitch Jun 16 2004, 11:21 AM Jimmy, answer Quicksand and myself, because I really would like an answer. Posted by: Killswitch Jun 16 2004, 04:46 PM bump; Im not letting this die. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jun 16 2004, 05:20 PM Killswitch, I'm working at home some very long days, so please excuse my absence. What do do.... You do have to exercise some sense when you address scripture. The issue of cutting out your eye underscores the seriousness of morality. And...yes...if you are going to end up in hell because of your eyes, etc.... it would be better to be blind. Does anybody do it? I don't know of any personally. It's a good reminder to me that you brought it up. Thanks! Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |