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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Why Would One Chose Xtianity Over Christianity? Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 18 2004, 03:18 PM To start I feel that I need to make it clear that I am a Christian. I do believe that the Bible was inspired by God but written by man. I believe that the Holy Bible (66 books) was compiled in the 4th century (Council of Nicea). I believe this council was guided by God. I have many more beliefs that will be revealed through future posts or by questions from you kind folks. Also, I feel that it is important for you to know that I seek to gain information and engage in open discussion and debate. The purpose of debate is not to have a winner and a loser but to exchange ideas. I will not attempt to convert any of you (except via private email on your request). Well enough about me, I would like to hear your thoughts to the question that is the subject of this topic. Why would one chose Xtianity over Christianity? I'm not saying one is better than the other - I'd just like your honest answers. Feel free to comment on posts, anything I've said thus far or simply commence to cursing me. However, keep in mind that I will not respond to personal attacks. Posted by: Ro-bear May 18 2004, 03:48 PM First we should clear up the terminology. Xtian=Christian x-xtian=ex-Christian On to your question:"Why would one chose[x-]Xtianity over Christianity?" Very simple, really; I just didn't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed miracles, rose from the dead, etc. I didn't believe the OT stuff about God, either. I rejected religion altogether because extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I simply never bought the supernatural stuff. Once Santa and the Tooth Fairy bit the dust, God and Jesus were doomed. Welcome to the site, openMinded_Christian! You'll find that Christians get flamed for one of two reasons: they initiate the hostilities or they put forth a particularly tired gambit. There are Christians here who are regarded as pretty good folks by most x-xtians. Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 18 2004, 03:58 PM Did you ever believe? Did you grow up in a Christian home? I'm not trying to pry, well yes I am. We are strangers to each other so I feel that we can be open and honest. That's the beauty of the net. Thanks for your reply and the cool vocabulary word "gambit". Posted by: chefranden May 18 2004, 04:18 PM Just to clear up the misunderstanding of Xian. X representing the greek letter chi (the hard ch sound in Bach) is the ancient abbreviation of Χριστός transliterated Christ in English -- thus Xmas and Xian. Posted by: chefranden May 18 2004, 04:22 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 05:18 PM) I believe that the Holy Bible (66 books) was compiled in the 4th century (Council of Nicea). I believe this council was guided by God. Why do you believe this council was guided by God? That is what evidence do you have that it was so guided, or is it just your assumption to enable your belief that the cannon = God's word. Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 18 2004, 04:38 PM Chefranden, thanks. Allow me to clarify for my own understanding; X(in Greek) = Christ(in English)? Therefore Xmas = Christmas? To answer your question - I don't know. I wasn't there and I don't believe that any of the history books can answer this question. This will only be answered in the afterlife; if there is one (I believe there is but I think it's ok for you to disagree). I wish we could travel back in time to see if Arian or Anathas (I think this was his name) or the other lesser known players were correct. Without this or some divine revelation I can't answer your question to your satisfaction. You want fact and without being there it (this fact that we both desire) is not available. Without this concrete evidence I have to take this on faith. Feel free to answer the questions I have posed in this post/topic. It's up to you but I've learned much from my reading on this forum. Posted by: Reach May 18 2004, 04:56 PM Hi OpenMinded Christian! Glad to have you here. I hope you'll enjoy the place. If you read some of the testimonies in the Testimony Forum, you'll find the answers to a lot of your questions and gain a greater understanding of the people who make up this community. I hope that you will come to love them as I have. This link may interest you and save you some time in locating some of the stories of some of the members: http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2424 A hearty welcome to Ex-C! -Reach Posted by: Lokmer May 18 2004, 04:57 PM A classy introduction if I've ever heard one. Let me start off admitting to a great personal affection for Christianity. My story is a long and involved one, and you can find it in my post history if you really want to. Eventually what it comes down to is that the Bible is not inerrant or reliable, and not clear on either matters of doctrine or morality. And, secondarily, if Christinity is "The Truth" as opposed to "a way of communicating truth", one would expect the Bible to be qualitatively unique and different when compared against other contemporary religions (contemporary toward when the books of the bible was written). I found - much to my dismay! - that the opposite is true, the Bible follows in development in near lock-step with contemporary religious thought of the region. There are a number of things this could mean - some of them favorable to God and some unfavorable to the existance of any God, and this is the question I am exploring right now as I re-read the Bible front to back and study other ancient cultures and (as odd as it may sound) continue to pray about it. That's it in a nutshell. Hope that helps. -Lokmer Posted by: Reach May 18 2004, 05:01 PM QUOTE (Lokmer @ May 18 2004, 07:57 PM) ...and this is the question I am exploring right now as I re-read the Bible front to back and study other ancient cultures and (as odd as it may sound) continue to pray about it. That's it in a nutshell. Hope that helps. -Lokmer Lokmer! You better watch it buddy. The Apologist Police™ might come by and color you blue if you're not careful. -Your buddy Reach Posted by: Lokmer May 18 2004, 05:06 PM Eek!! Blue is a scary color!!! >>Lokmer hides under the desk<< Posted by: chefranden May 18 2004, 05:09 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 06:38 PM) Chefranden, thanks. Allow me to clarify for my own understanding; X(in Greek) = Christ(in English)? Therefore Xmas = Christmas? ====================================== To answer your question - I don't know. I wasn't there and I don't believe that any of the history books can answer this question. This will only be answered in the afterlife; if there is one (I believe there is but I think it's ok for you to disagree). I wish we could travel back in time to see if Arian or Anathas (I think this was his name) or the other lesser known players were correct. Without this or some divine revelation I can't answer your question to your satisfaction. You want fact and without being there it (this fact that we both desire) is not available. Without this concrete evidence I have to take this on faith. ====================================== Correct. ====================================== Spock: Captian, that is not logical. Kirk: I know Spock, but it feels so nice. ====================================== Posted by: bob May 18 2004, 05:10 PM Welcome OMC, I was born a non-believer, just like you and everyone else. I later made the choice to believe when I was 17. At 42, I came to the conclusion that my belief in bible god, all those years, was in vain because I had no evidence that bible god actually existed. So, I stopped believing. Now, 4 years later, I have yet to be presented with one single byte of evidence that the god of the bible is real, therefore, I remain a none believer, or an ex-christian. "I am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of God. That should be all that needs to be said about it: no evidence, no belief." -- Dan Barker Posted by: PriorWorrier May 18 2004, 05:10 PM There doesn't appear to be much choice in the matter. Either on believes or they don't. My brain won't allow me to believe the Xtian claims no matter how many times or how vociferously I tell it to. Posted by: Reach May 18 2004, 05:22 PM OMC~ I forgot to mention this. There is an almost unspoken rule of etiquette you might find helpful for the Testimony Forum. As a rule, it is frowned upon for Christians to post there. I have posted there perhaps five times, usually trying to chase out an ill-mannered Christian. I thought you'd like to know since you seem like one who does not wish to offend. Again, welcome! ~Reach Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 18 2004, 10:42 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 03:18 PM) To start I feel that I need to make it clear that I am a Christian. I do believe that the Bible was inspired by God but written by man. I believe that the Holy Bible (66 books) was compiled in the 4th century (Council of Nicea). I believe this council was guided by God. I have many more beliefs that will be revealed through future posts or by questions from you kind folks. Hello openMinded_Christian: I wonder, did you examine all other religions before you placed your faith in Christianity? If so, what were your evaluation criteria for eliminating the others as unworthy of your faith? QUOTE Also, I feel that it is important for you to know that I seek to gain information and engage in open discussion and debate. The purpose of debate is not to have a winner and a loser but to exchange ideas. During the process of a debate, an exchange of ideas occurs, but that is not the purpose of a debate. The purpose of a debate is about the winning of arguments. QUOTE Why would one chose Xtianity over Christianity? Why do you really ask? It sounds like your question is asked out of genuine curiosity. Based on your stated desire to exchange ideas with Ex-Christians, I’m wondering if on an unconscious level, perhaps there is a substrate inquiry as to whether you could somehow become an Ex-Christian as well... As to your question, to me, the Christian belief proposition does not seem to be an intellectually honest position when examined in the light of reason. As with other religions, it seems to be a slowly evolved and contrived position created by wishful thinking, and emotionally driven by a religious adherents desperate assurance of continued existence of consciousness, and the understandable hope for happiness after death in this world. As for the Christian belief system, I see many challenges with it: It is based on hearsay information and structured in such as a way as to avoid giving any proofs. It cannot be validated. It cannot be tested. Ultimately, the Christian proposition comes down to one thing: One must have Faith. -Ignore the absurdities -Ignore the contradictions -Ignore your sense of reason -Ignore the lack of evidence -Ignore the illogic of Christian theology. -Ignore that bible-God has been silent for some 2000 years -Ignore that the books of the bible are of anonymous authorship -Ignore trying to morally reconcile the bloody and cruel history recorded in the purported “word of God” done by, and at the command of the Christian Deity. -Ignore all of your unanswerable questions Just have faith. The problem is that believing things on faith very rarely leads to truth. Christianity calls on one to hold blind faith in the face of contradictory and unreasonable information, while supplying no evidence. By holding belief in Christianity, a person must give up that part of their intellect and sense of reason that allows one to deal with the rational world around us. Instead, one must replace reason…with faith, and there is everything to lose when we sacrifice the indispensable tool of reason on the altar of faith and superstition. “It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what one does not believe” – Thomas Paine So why am I an Ex-Christian? Because I cannot summon faith just by deciding to do so. I must first know that the thing I place my faith in is worthy of it. I must first determine if something is or is not worthy of faith by using the only tools I have at my disposal…my mind, my observational experiences of the world, my sense of logic and reason. I will not simply depend upon a single, questionable source of knowledge, including the bible. Posted by: nightbreeze May 18 2004, 11:07 PM Do you believe that people will burn in hell? Posted by: Vixentrox May 19 2004, 04:52 AM My anti-testimony is out there somewhere. Feel free to look it up. Posted by: Skankboy May 19 2004, 05:15 AM I'm baaaaaaack! Why am I an x-xtian? I'd have to say the short answer is intellectual honesty. After awhile I reached a point in my education where I could no longer see religion as anything more than a collection of myths. And while these myths are important cultural artifacts, I don't believe they are accurate representations of reality. PS: Welcome! Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 19 2004, 05:16 AM Thank you all for your replies! I put my son to bed last night around 9 and fell asleep in the process. I thank you all for your responses and will respond to them all or ask questions individually via email. I'd love to chat this morning but it's off to work. In the mean time - Feel free to continue posting. Again, thank you all! Posted by: =Veritas= May 19 2004, 08:13 AM Welcome OMC! Glad you're here. Enjoy your stay. That is all, I have to say. I might have more another day. I'd better stop now, or this will get really annoying... =Veritas= Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 19 2004, 08:25 AM Upon many of your requests, I have read your testimonies and I am seeing a common factor in all of your statements. "NO PROOF!" Would you agree with my summation? Does this apply to all of you? some? none? I know that there are several other factors (e.g. contradiction, hypocracy, etc...) but the proof issue seemed to be the most common denominator. My opinions: Christianity is illogical. I'll be the first to admit that. Until God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit comes to visit me ,and allow me to video-tape the event, I will not be able to prove His/Her/It's existence to any of you. I have experienced things which have led me to the conclusion that God exists but you probably won't believe me or will tell me that other religions have similar claims. I don't believe that Christian's have a monopoly on God. I believe that to follow Jesus is to follow his teachings: Peace, Love, Acceptance, Etc... And, from my understanding, other religions teach this. I do pray daily that God will lead me to all the truth that my carnal mind can understand. RealityAmplifier: 1)I didn't have a chance to examine other religions. 2)My statement should have read "My purpose for debate is...." instead of "The purpose for debate is...." I feel that this discussion will only be a forum for the sharing of ideas because we are immovable forces in that I don't agree w/your conclusions nor do you agree w/mine. But this doesn't mean we cant discuss these issues. Nightbreeze: Is hell real? I dunno! I'm looking into it myself but more importantly (importance to me) I'm looking at what followers of Jesus should do, how they should act, etc.. I've tried to answer all of your questions/statements in the small amt of time I have. If there is one that I have overlooked please point it out to me. Also, feel free to ask questions of me or give me your opinions. I have greatly enjoyed talking with you and I feel that we can learn from each other. OMC Posted by: R.C. May 19 2004, 08:42 AM QUOTE My opinions: Christianity is illogical. I'll be the first to admit that. Until God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit comes to visit me ,and allow me to video-tape the event, I will not be able to prove His/Her/It's existence to any of you. I have experienced things which have led me to the conclusion that God exists but you probably won't believe me or will tell me that other religions have similar claims. I don't believe that Christian's have a monopoly on God. I believe that to follow Jesus is to follow his teachings: Peace, Love, Acceptance, Etc... And, from my understanding, other religions teach this. I do pray daily that God will lead me to all the truth that my carnal mind can understand. When I read the name "open minded christian", I was a little suspicious as that seems like a contradiction in terms. But from your post, I see that you display the compatibility of the two. Welcome to the forum! RC Posted by: Tocis May 19 2004, 09:24 AM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 03:18 PM) Why would one chose Xtianity over Christianity? Well, why would one choose to follow christ instead of Thor?We do what we do because we're convinced that it's the best thing to do. To me, Asatru is the faith that feels right from deep down inside. The Poetic Edda moved me - the bible never did. Posted by: Tocis May 19 2004, 09:32 AM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 08:25 AM) Christianity is illogical. I'll be the first to admit that. Until God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit comes to visit me ,and allow me to video-tape the event, I will not be able to prove His/Her/It's existence to any of you. You know that there are very few christians who ever came here and admitted that? I admit I was sceptical about you when I started with this thread and wrote my first reply, but now (unless you're a damn good actor... and that, in and of itself, would merit an applause ) it's time for me to wholeheartedly welcome you to our forums. Posted by: fuct> May 19 2004, 09:50 AM Salutations OMC, im a ex-xtian pretty much for the same reason everyone else here is, common [BLEEPING] sense. I dont believe ther are angels ,demons and all that nonsense. It's just silly to believe in that stuff and anyone that does should seek the attention of a therapist , fast. peace fuct> Posted by: Skankboy May 19 2004, 09:58 AM Welcome Fuct>! First of all, LOVE the avatar. Spike is without a doubt the coolest cat in the known universe! I think your exactly right. It's not necessarily about "proof". Proof can be manipulated and scewed to the benefit of the position being espoused. For me, it was intellectual honesty (which is just my fancy way of saying common sense). After awhile, I just couldn't believe it was all true anymore than I could believe the contents of any other set of myths. Again, welcome. Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 19 2004, 11:54 AM QUOTE im a ex-xtian pretty much for the same reason everyone else here is, common [BLEEPING] sense. I dont believe ther are angels ,demons and all that nonsense. It's just silly to believe in that stuff and anyone that does should seek the attention of a therapist , fast. Therapy? Thats for crazy people! I tell him "OMC your not crazy", then OMC said "who said that? is this a dream? where am i? OMC told me one time that I am sane but I didn't believe him because all the other voices were saying "cheesecracker, cheesecracker, cheesecracker!" What does this all mean? I cant handle it!!! Who said ? Show yourself!!!! But seriously Fuct>, why the insult? Is it so rediculous that I believe in God. Why am I worthy of this attention? Is it only Christians or all religions (that believe in God, Devil & other spirits) that need therapy? OMC Posted by: _Kevin May 19 2004, 12:22 PM OMC QUOTE Therapy? Thats for crazy people! I tell him "OMC your not crazy", then OMC said "who said that? is this a dream? where am i? OMC told me one time that I am sane but I didn't believe him because all the other voices were saying "cheesecracker, cheesecracker, cheesecracker!" What does this all mean? I cant handle it!!! Who said ? Show yourself!!!! But seriously Fuct>, why the insult? Is it so rediculous that I believe in God. Why am I worthy of this attention? Is it only Christians or all religions (that believe in God, Devil & other spirits) that need therapy? OMC OMC (You've sort of gone weird suddenly). Nearly EVERYONE here thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, hence the name of the site! Posted by: Reach May 19 2004, 12:28 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 19 2004, 03:22 PM) OMC (You've sort of gone weird suddenly). Hey Kevin! OMC might have been simply enjoying a moment of laughing at one's self. If that's the case, that's very healthy, mentally. I should know. I do it often. Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 19 2004, 12:41 PM QUOTE Nearly EVERYONE here thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, hence the name of the site! Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? Someone who claims to be an ExChristian means, to me, that they once were a follower of Jesus or they once believed in his teachings. The term has nothing to do with God. I could be an ExChristian and now be a Hindu which, if I'm not mistaken, believes in God or Allah. Right? I'm simply pointing out the fact that one doesn't have to be crazy, or need therapy, to believe in God. Tocis seems to be a pretty cool person and you won't see me attacking him for his belief in the gods of Asatru. I'm just asking for the same respect that you have given him and that I have shown to all of you. To say that one has to be "crazy" to believe in God is as closed minded as a xtian fundie that says one has to be a heretic or ignorant or "crazy" to not believe in God or Jesus. Posted by: bob May 19 2004, 02:52 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 12:41 PM) Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? Well, while I do think it is ridicules to believe in something that has no basis in fact, to the point that your life revolves around that belief (as mine did), I don't disrespect you for having such a belief, or consider you to be mentally deficient in any way. Posted by: Ro-bear May 19 2004, 04:17 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 03:58 PM) Did you ever believe? Did you grow up in a Christian home? I'm not trying to pry, well yes I am. We are strangers to each other so I feel that we can be open and honest. That's the beauty of the net. Thanks for your reply and the cool vocabulary word "gambit". Sorry about the delay in responding, OMC. I stopped believing gradually between the ages of seven or eight and twelve or thirteen. I was raised in a Christian home, but religion didn't dominate my family life. We went to church on Sundays; that's about it. My family is comprised of good people, but not religious. I just took it a couple of steps further. My testimony appears on April 1st of this year. Archived testimonies may be found on the left side of the testimonies area. Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 19 2004, 04:56 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 11:25 AM) Upon many of your requests, I have read your testimonies and I am seeing a common factor in all of your statements. "NO PROOF!" Would you agree with my summation? Does this apply to all of you? some? none? I know that there are several other factors (e.g. contradiction, hypocracy, etc...) but the proof issue seemed to be the most common denominator. Welcome OMC. I think your question should be "Why would one choose christianity?" We all begin as non-christians. Many of us were indoctrinated into christianity as children. However, you have to ask why an intelligent and untainted adult would accept christianity over other religions or over no religion at all. I think it has to come down to proof of some kind. Feelings can't be trusted. They come and go and can be caused by various physical reasons. Why would a god give us our reasoning ability and physical senses and then ask us to abandon them when it comes to determining his existence and will? It doesn't make sense. Posted by: BenjaminTC May 19 2004, 05:25 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 08:25 AM) Upon many of your requests, I have read your testimonies and I am seeing a common factor in all of your statements. "NO PROOF!" Would you agree with my summation? Does this apply to all of you? some? none? I know that there are several other factors (e.g. contradiction, hypocracy, etc...) but the proof issue seemed to be the most common denominator. My opinions: Christianity is illogical. I'll be the first to admit that. Until God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit comes to visit me ,and allow me to video-tape the event, I will not be able to prove His/Her/It's existence to any of you. For me personally, its just Xianity is quicker to type that Christianity. There is no disrespect meant, for my part. But you go on to say Xianity is illogical, and you presented no proof. So proof and logic are gone. What's left? How do you base a belief without logic or proof? On what do you base the belief? Here's a link to my testimony http://www.exchristian.net/testimonies/2004_02_07_archive.php I might make a new one because the responses to mine were erased. I also might have more to say. email: revmouse@rome.com Posted by: Tocis May 19 2004, 10:50 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 12:41 PM) QUOTE Nearly EVERYONE here thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, hence the name of the site! Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? OMC, please understand that most people here went through the horrors of fundyism. Naturally, a lot of anger does get built up, and is released every now and then against people who not exactly deserve it. Most of us don't exactly think that everyone with any kind of religion is an idiot - but especially with all those "loving" "christians" dropping in here, after some time you get used to treating everyone here as a fundie when in doubt. I disagree with your beliefs, but I think that everyone has the right to (dis-)believe in whatever he wants, as long as he does not try to force it on others. As far as I can tell you did not try this yet, and I can't really imagine that you will start trying this in the future. Yes, logically every religion (I know) is ridiculous. But to each his own - after all, I also have my ridiculous beliefs Posted by: Quicksand May 20 2004, 05:52 AM QUOTE OMC, please understand that most people here went through the horrors of fundyism. I wasn't exposed to fundyism so much as perhaps a lot of the folks on this site were, I did stop believing in the stew that christianity provides in its cookbook at a quite a young age. I think most Chrisitans are upstanding people (like my parents and co-workers) and if they have this belief that makes 'em feel good, then I don't want to stand in the way of it. However, when you preach it to me don't be surprised at my rebuttles and objections. Most of which I can pull from the Bible itself. I'm all fine with a belief in God if you have one/many. Christians state the most ludicrous lies about Bible-God that he is a nice loving guy, when many of his actions in the bible are not. Posted by: MalaInSe May 20 2004, 11:20 AM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 12:41 PM) Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? I don't think that your thoughts are ridiculous. I don't think that many of the commandments issued by Jesus regarding treatment of others are ridiculous, however, they do seem to mirror other active philosophies at the time. I don't find the concept of adhering to a religious philosophy generally is ridiculous, especially when one does so in a way that does not harm others. I think some of the more dire doctrinal concepts are ridiculous, and I think that blindly adhering to such doctrines and criticizing others for not doing so is ridiculous. However, looking to religion for behavioral guidance is not, in itself, ridiculous. Renee Posted by: Reach May 20 2004, 11:49 AM QUOTE (MalaInSe @ May 20 2004, 02:20 PM) QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 12:41 PM) Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? I don't think that your thoughts are ridiculous. I don't think that many of the commandments issued by Jesus regarding treatment of others are ridiculous, however, they do seem to mirror other active philosophies at the time. I don't find the concept of adhering to a religious philosophy generally is ridiculous, especially when one does so in a way that does not harm others. I think some of the more dire doctrinal concepts are ridiculous, and I think that blindly adhering to such doctrines and criticizing others for not doing so is ridiculous. However, looking to religion for behavioral guidance is not, in itself, ridiculous. Renee Thank you, Renee. Reach Posted by: mandylibra1979 May 20 2004, 11:55 AM OpenMindedChristian- Hi! Sorry that I am late in welcoming you to the site. Anyhow, Welcome! You asked if we think your thoughts are ridiculous. From my point of view, I feel that depends on what you mean exactly by ridiculous. Also I would have to know more about what you specifically believe before I could come to a conclusion. Religion is not my cup of tea. As long as you don't attempt to make me drink it then the 2 of us will get along fine. your mod mandy Posted by: chefranden May 20 2004, 12:19 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 02:41 PM) Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? My opinions: Christianity is illogical. I'll be the first to admit that. Until God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit comes to visit me ,and allow me to video-tape the event, I will not be able to prove His/Her/It's existence to any of you. I have experienced things which have led me to the conclusion that God exists but you probably won't believe me or will tell me that other religions have similar claims. I don't believe that Christian's have a monopoly on God. I believe that to follow Jesus is to follow his teachings: Peace, Love, Acceptance, Etc... And, from my understanding, other religions teach this. I do pray daily that God will lead me to all the truth that my carnal mind can understand. . I don't know why one would choose to believe something that is logically impossible. I think that you would benefit from a course on critical thinking, or at least a read of http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0767420489/qid=1085082551/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-8796013-3631257?v=glance&s=books. You will learn more from this about what is real then from prayer. As to your personal experiences, you ought to be aware that, if you are not, just because something seems (feels, appears) real doesn't mean that it is. That is we can not know for certain that an event or phenomenon has objective reality just because it appears to us to have objective reality. This is just a logical fact: We can't infer what is from what seems. The mind is too easily misled. That is the reason the scientific method was invented in the first place. Perception is not just a one to one direct correspondence with external reality. Perception is something that the brain constructs, and to save time and computing power it often just takes a guess. And it doesn't help to consult others, because they are often fooled in the same way (cf. http://dragon.uml.edu/psych/illusion.html). Instead one needs to examine the experience logically and form several hypotheses as to the cause and then test the hypotheses to find the best explanation. Remember no one sees http://dragon.uml.edu/psych/bspot.html with out a method. Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 20 2004, 12:32 PM Chef, Posted by: MrSpooky May 20 2004, 12:41 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 12:41 PM) QUOTE Nearly EVERYONE here thinks it's ridiculous to believe in God, hence the name of the site! Does nearly everyone here think my thoughts are rediculous? Someone who claims to be an ExChristian means, to me, that they once were a follower of Jesus or they once believed in his teachings. The term has nothing to do with God. I could be an ExChristian and now be a Hindu which, if I'm not mistaken, believes in God or Allah. Right? You're mistaken. Muslim. You'd be Muslim. Following the religion of Islam. Infidel. Posted by: formerfundie May 20 2004, 01:33 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 18 2004, 03:18 PM) Well enough about me, I would like to hear your thoughts to the question that is the subject of this topic. Why would one chose Xtianity over Christianity? I'm not saying one is better than the other - I'd just like your honest answers. Feel free to comment on posts, anything I've said thus far or simply commence to cursing me. However, keep in mind that I will not respond to personal attacks. This one I'll respond to because I like the approach you're taking. Like many other people here, I was a christian - or at least a deist - for the majority of my life. I chose ex-christianity for several reasons. I am currently an agnostic (or to some weak atheist) because right now it appears relatively impossible for anyone to prove/disprove the existence of any god, and even if a god/gods do exist - any intentions of the entity would be too open to speculation and interpretation - man's - any man's - speculation and interpretation. How then is one supposed to decide which of these is correct or true? I chose ex-christianity because it made me a better person. I knew how I was and how I thought when I was a christian - over time certain opinions changed. I realized that although I'd been taught and told that christianity - regardless of sect - was THE only way to love/peace/joy/happiness - there are other philosophies that are just as relevant to the achievement of these things. I was taught that "we" were "right" and EVERYONE else was "wrong." Some research quickly proved to me this opinion was just that - OPINION! Christianity has to be based on a matter of belief because it can't be supported any other way (i.e. - through any solid empirical evidence). Therefore, in order to maintain christianity, I would have had to shut off a mind that somehow had been opened through a ray of light - that light being a teacher I highly respected making reference to the bible stories being myth and legend and the many contradictions therein, which due to indoctrination I had never seen or THOUGHT about before - and afterwards because I'd never been told or taught to research this, doing a bit of research, I found out that much of what I'd been taught and had been adhering to my whole life had been a lie and that I'd been deceived by those who were propagating this doctrine who unfortunately were just as ignorant as I about where it all orginated from and if they weren't ignorant then it appears they were using nothing but priest-craft and mind control techniques in the employment of charlatanry. I chose ex-christianity because it was better for my mental health. I was under the assumption that I was demonically possessed or at least oppressed for years. Thanks to the people on this forum, that assumption has dissipated, and I've realized I'm not, and for the most part that I'm a normal individual with normal urges and desires and that I shouldn't feel guilty for having these. I always thought I was going to hell because I thought I had all these problems because I was demonically possessed/oppressed. Christianity did absolutely NOTHING to eliminate this way of thinking. As a matter of fact, I was steeped in a doctrine that actually ENCOURAGED it. I chose ex-christianity because it is more fiscally responsible. I never set up a savings account or looked to the future because I was always taught/told "god" was gonna take care of me - lay up treasures for yourself in heaven - give and it shall be given blah, blah, blah - and I believed and exercised and practiced EVERY DAMN WORD. It was drilled into my head at EVERY SERVICE I EVER ATTENDED INCLUDING THE CATHOLIC ONES I WENT TO WITH MY MOM WHEN I WAS OLDER. I have little monetarily now, but I can say with hopefulness now that this will eventually change after having to ride some winds of financial adversities for a season of time. I was suckered out of LOTS of money. I still think it is good to support charities and have always waxed pretty philantropic, THAT is being reigned in for now, but may expand again later. I feel like I was taken advantage of even though the people that were taking advantage of me weren't necessarily doing it intentionally. I chose ex-christianity because my thinking, and if there is a god he/she/it/whatever's thinking - are in complete disagreement with each other - according the the biblical doctrines that were taught/preached to me and from my own biblical studies. Why would anyone choose to be xtian over christianity - just look at what's happening in the political arena of this country today and tell me why anyone who could exercise a clear, reasonable, logical mind at all would choose to be christian OVER xtian? Thanks. FF Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 21 2004, 11:17 AM Apparently your most pressing question (the converse to my initial question): Why would one chose to be a Christian over an Ex-Christian? As of this moment, I cannot answer this question. I need more information on the subject. The question that I initially posed has become a much larger and a much more complex personal issue but I am determined to keep pressing on it until I find the truth. All of your arguments/opinions have merit (to me). It is impossible for me to assume that all of you are ignorant just because we disagree about the existence of God (and other issues). A sincere attempt will be made, by me and others, in private and public, even on this forum to find the information that I/we (not necessarily you) need to come to a logical conclusion. If you kind people have taught me only one thing I would have to say this is it: One of us are dead wrong! I may be wrong. If so, I'll humbly admit it. I will not stop until I find the truth. I will pray. I will read. I will ask. I will think critically. I will no longer run from a challenge of my beliefs when difficult questions are asked. I will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am right because I have the evidence to support my claim. I will seek and damn it I will find the truth!!! And most importantly, I will not be afraid of the truth or be so full of conceit to dismiss it when I find it. However, I will struggle to only allow my mind to believe in things/ideas that are logical. That is, "only things or ideas that can be empirically tested and proven via critical thinking or the scientific method." To only believe in things/ideas that can be tested would drastically limit the human experience. To limit the mind to the governing concept of logic denies even the possibility that anything exists outside of logic. Something cannot be tested; therefore it must not be true? The logical or reasonable mind is powerful and it must be developed. Allow it to direct you as it will help. However, one cannot allow logic to dictate as our logical or reasonable minds are limited. To live a life based solely on logic can cause you to miss out on many opportunities. Love is arguably illogical. But to believe that love doesn’t exist b/c it can’t be quantified (or broken apart for analyzing) is just plain wrong. I love my wife, my child, my family and all of my friends. Including all of you. Thank all of you for your kind and knowledgeable words. You have answered my questions and I am sorry that I can’t answer the converse to my original question. As I said before I need more information and I won't quit digging until I find it. Even if it does refute Christianity. Please keep an eye out for my name, openMinded_Christian, on future posts because I would like to discuss some of the alleged contradictions in the bible, facts (historical, archeological, etc..) that support/refute the bible, and many, many more. OMC p.s Chef, thanks 4 the advice - Critical Thinking. I didn't chose your book but I did read up on the subject. I read "Critical Thinking: What it is and Why it counts" by Peter Facione, exerpts from "Critical Thinking" by John Chaffee and "Critical Thinking: A statement of Expert Concensus for purposes of Educational Assessment and Instruction". All were very educational. Thank you! Posted by: extremeone May 21 2004, 11:40 AM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 21 2004, 11:17 AM) I will seek and damn it I will find the truth!!! And most importantly, I will not be afraid of the truth or be so full of conceit to dismiss it when I find it. the only way you'll get awnsers...and know for-sure.... is when you(we) die. Posted by: MalaInSe May 21 2004, 12:13 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 21 2004, 11:17 AM) I will seek and damn it I will find the truth!!! And most importantly, I will not be afraid of the truth or be so full of conceit to dismiss it when I find it. Gosh, if you figure this all out can you let me know?? Seriously, watch your absolutes. If the truth were knowable, there wouldn't be so much uncertainty and controversy here. What we're dealing with here, I believe, is belief based on evidence. I think the evidence points my way (there is no theos), rather than yours, but I would have a hard time categorizing what I believe as truth. I think it's impossible to know for certain. Honestly, I don't care if you believe or not, as long as you don't bother me. If you believe, then just be the nice person you seem to be. I don't believe, but I'll try to be a nice person to you too. I don't need to know that what I believe is "the truth" for that, and believing that the truth is knowable may turn you arrogant on us. Ren Posted by: openMinded_Christian May 21 2004, 09:02 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 21 2004, 11:17 AM) I will seek and damn it I will find the truth!!! And most importantly, I will not be afraid of the truth or be so full of conceit to dismiss it when I find it. QUOTE MalaInSe Posted on May 21 2004, 12:13 PM Gosh, if you figure this all out can you let me know?? Seriously, watch your absolutes. If the truth were knowable, there wouldn't be so much uncertainty and controversy here. Thank's Renee. This statement is overzealous in it's absoluteness which you playfully pointed out in your opening banter. I only questioned it after I pressed the "Add Post" buton. I agree that if we knew the "TRUTH" there would be much less controversy. Thanks for pointing this out:) Posted by: formerfundie May 21 2004, 09:48 PM QUOTE (openMinded_Christian @ May 19 2004, 11:54 AM) QUOTE im a ex-xtian pretty much for the same reason everyone else here is, common [BLEEPING] sense. I dont believe ther are angels ,demons and all that nonsense. It's just silly to believe in that stuff and anyone that does should seek the attention of a therapist , fast. Therapy? Thats for crazy people! I tell him "OMC your not crazy", then OMC said "who said that? is this a dream? where am i? OMC told me one time that I am sane but I didn't believe him because all the other voices were saying "cheesecracker, cheesecracker, cheesecracker!" What does this all mean? I cant handle it!!! Who said ? Show yourself!!!! But seriously Fuct>, why the insult? Is it so rediculous that I believe in God. Why am I worthy of this attention? Is it only Christians or all religions (that believe in God, Devil & other spirits) that need therapy? OMC A sense of humor, hmmm, this is a good thing. Like I said before and will say again, as long as you maintain this approach, which right now is appearing (at least to me anyway, but then again I'm kinda a 'softie') to be one of research (sincere research) and learning in an attempt perhaps to understand us and maybe even to better understand yourself, you'll find that most here remain civil with ya. As far as the insanity issue goes, I'd have to say that there are those among us here who would also classify as being somewhat "bent"(myself included) in spite of an unbelief in any deities. FF Posted by: BenjaminTC May 21 2004, 10:25 PM Its good to see that you are not totally fixed in your belief. You recognize that something may happen that will challenge your beliefs. You are even open to challenging your own beliefs. This sounds like a healthy approach. You are talking the way I was a few years back at the begining of my journey that eventually lead me through different beliefs and finally out of Christianity. However, you sound like your searching in inaccesible places. Outside of logic and demonstratable fact, what is there? There is speculation, but you can't base a life of beliefs on speculation. I could speculate that the universe is just an electron existing in another universe, and that one in another universe and so on. This may be fun to think about and ponder, but its just speculation. It was concocted outside of fact and logic. So why should I base my life on it? Also. You believe that God gave us our brains, right? He did not give us the ability to prove his existance. The logic and imaginative part of our brains invented thousands of versions of him. So basically, your creator didn't give us ample ability to understand even his own existance! How can he expect so much out of us as to understand anything else? And you may choose to respond with "he gave us the bible" but still, the church is devided into 3 parts. Beliefs range greatly. Wouldn't god want us to beleive in him? It was in his power for us to recognize that he exists unquestionably. I kind of rambled on there, if you can make anything out of that, good. Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |