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| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Your opinions on the following |
| Posted by: Wanna-be Writer Jan 22 2005, 02:53 PM |
| 1.) www.teenchallenge.com How do you explain the fact that (true) christianity changes lives? |
| Posted by: Shadfox Jan 22 2005, 02:57 PM |
| Keep these links to one thread, please. This is bordering on spaming. Or, a better way to do it is post a chunk of the webpage, give YOUR opinion and we can follow with a discussion. This is the 3rd or 4th "go here and tell me what you think" thread. |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Jan 22 2005, 03:01 PM |
| Wicca changed my life. I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread. Then Atheism changed my life. And I recognized that Wicca was on the same level as an appeal to Santa Claus. Conversion tends to change people's lives, and has a tendency to change them for the better when that their new belief system emphasizes ethical behavior. However, some ethical models can be rather extraneous and limit human freedoms and happiness rather than maximize them, which is the problem with Christianity. |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Jan 22 2005, 03:06 PM |
| LOL, oh MAN, that reminds me of this one kid I heard on campus... "When I was a teenager, I was depressed and I had no guidance after high school. So one day I decided to try Christ. After that, I felt great, I decided to do something with my life, and now I'm totally happy! Maybe there IS something to Christianity!" I smiled. "It's nice to know you got over the slings and arrows of puberty, dude. Glad to hear your hormones stopped doing crazy stuff." Well, that's what I WANTED to say, at least. I find it kinda funny that this supposed new sense of happiness after a period of chaos and lack of guidance often tends to coincide with the end of puberty. |
| Posted by: Shadfox Jan 22 2005, 03:08 PM | ||
What a precious, heartwarming story! |
| Posted by: Wanna-be Writer Jan 22 2005, 03:09 PM | ||
[Shadfox] In this segment of the forum you can voice whatever opinion you wish, even if it's "preachy." I accidently clicked "edit" on this posting rather than reply on accident. I'm not used to the mod features yet. Sorry Wannabee Writer :( I didn't mean to screw with your post. I can't figure out how to undo this one. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Jan 22 2005, 03:12 PM |
| Auto accidents change lives too. What's your point? |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Jan 22 2005, 03:27 PM |
| We can tolerate preachiness to an extent. I just don't think we tolerate inane crap. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Jan 22 2005, 03:30 PM |
| Very nicely put MrSpooky. |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Jan 22 2005, 03:41 PM |
| That pineapple of yours looks mighty tasty, SmallStone. Sadly I burned my tongue on a shrimp dumpling yesterday. Crap. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Jan 22 2005, 03:53 PM |
| What is the big deal with "change my life"? Sounds like a diet pill comercial. I took this pill and it "changed my life" all my toes fell off and I pee out my ear. What if I don't want my life changed? If I became a christian, again, and my life changed I'd be pissed. Take it from this old grandad, truth be known, you can't help your life changing. If you are older than 7, you don't even have the same matter making up your body that you started out with. Like they say in Texas, if you don't like the weather just wait a minute. |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 22 2005, 03:55 PM | ||
How do you explain the fact that Mormonism changes lives or Branch Davidianism changes lives? How do you explain the fact that Islam changes lives or that Viagra changes lives? You're going to have to do better than that wanna-be. |
| Posted by: gssq Jan 22 2005, 07:32 PM |
| "Chicken Soup for the Soul" changes lives |
| Posted by: Tocis Jan 23 2005, 12:19 AM |
| And, just for the record, my deconversion to Asatru was the start of an altogether better life for me too. What does that prove, hmmm? |
| Posted by: Asimov Jan 23 2005, 01:14 AM |
| My massive 18" internet penis has changed lives. |
| Posted by: Ian Jan 23 2005, 01:15 AM |
| I took up heroin ! It's changed my life ! |
| Posted by: lalli Jan 23 2005, 02:27 AM | ||
True Christianity sure changed my life. It told me that my mental health problems were bad and demonic, and that the only way out was to pray to Jesus. This ensured that my problems only worsened over the ensuing decade of fervent prayer and Bible study, until the day I woke up to reality, deconverted to agnosticism, and allowed my evil Pagan friend to take me to an evil atheist doctor.  Thanks to the medical professionals I've been seeing since, and thanks to the patience and support of my evil agnostic partner, I'm much more able to cope with my problems and for the first time in my life have an optimistic and hopeful view of my future, instead of despair at the prospect of an eternity in hell for my sins. Thank you, Christianity, for making my problems so much worse that it's probably going to take a decade of work to reverse the damage. (edit: damn smileys) |
| Posted by: Ian Jan 23 2005, 02:33 AM |
| Lalli..I am here to preempt the standard "THEY WEREN'T TRUE CHRISTIANS" response. Then again, you probably knew that was coming... |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Jan 23 2005, 02:39 AM |
| Emotion is not tied into our reality. If Christianity improved someone's life, fine. That does not prove, however, that some godman carpenter was nailed to a hunk of wood in the first century. You know, we've heard this shit before. It's not very impressive. |
| Posted by: I Broke Free Jan 23 2005, 06:52 AM | ||
Strike out the last word in your question please. It will read better.  |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Jan 23 2005, 06:55 AM |
| Ever notice that those who claim to have "true" Christianity almost never agree on what true Christianity is? |
| Posted by: SmallStone Jan 23 2005, 07:18 AM |
| I'm not sure limiting it to just 'true' xtianity is fair. After a number of years of indoctrination as a child, twenty years of on/off research (mostly off), and a year of activity on this site, I'm farther from understanding just exactly what xtianity is than I was the day I started. The more xtian material I read, and the the more xtians I talk with, the more confused my understanding gets. One cult says one thing, another cult says another thing, and when I read the bible, I get something totally different out of it. When I factor in the wildly differing viewpoints that have been held down through the ages, I'm left with a gooey mess. It seems the bible was crafted by astrologers, or at least people that would have made good astrologers. |
| Posted by: Anomalie Jan 23 2005, 07:54 AM |
| I thought from the title, you were gonna say something smart. I was wrong. |
| Posted by: pitchu Jan 23 2005, 08:13 AM |
| About 30 years ago, my sister called to tell me she'd found the "real" "true" scratchpad. I joined her at the altar of this scratchpad after discovering it lived up to its claims: it never stuck you with sharp little pieces of itself, didn't collect crud inside it, performed gently and thoroughly in leaving everything it touched clean, and it lasted in its effectuality damn near forever, which is more than can be said of xianity. ScotchBrite changed my life.  |
| Posted by: Madame M Jan 23 2005, 08:23 AM | ||
Or with the beginning of adulthood. AFter leaving high school, most people feel a sense of chaos or not knowing what to do with themselves or fear of no longer being a child..etc. After I left high school, I felt that way. I was on my own for the first time, I moved out of my parents house 2 months after graduation. I was already a Christian, but I found a really high demand group that gave me a "purpose" and a social group. It was too high demand, and is actually listed as a cult, but I wanted the same kind of church that gave me a "purpose" without the cultishness. So I went to a really large charismatic church with a friend that had a huge singles group and tons of activities. It was more intense spiritually than the church I grew up in and I felt like I had found a reason for my life or something that made it cohesive and make sense. |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 23 2005, 08:34 AM | ||
 I can relate to that one, Pitchu. I daresay that electricity has changed my life for the better. Electricity and ScotchBrite.  |
| Posted by: Madame M Jan 23 2005, 08:36 AM | ||
This reminds me of a story my ex pastor (baptist) told us in church. Well, it wasn't a story, really. He brought the People magazine in and it was an article on celebrities and religion. He read Madonna's story, and she said something to the effect of, "I was wondering, why am I here, what is life about..etc." You know, those kinds of questions. Then she went on to say that a friend introduced her to Kabbalah and now she is at peace, has purpose...yadda yadda yadda. Know what the pastor's response to this was? "This lady was reaching out for answers, and if only a Christian had been there to give her one. Instead she has been lead onto a false road." The nagging thought that popped into my head was, why was her feeling of fulfillment, peace and having found "the truth" false simply because she had found a different religion than he agreed with. If her story had stayed the same and the word "Kabbalah" was changed to "Christianity", then he would have been rejoicing and using her story as a testimony of how God changes lives. Do you see the hypocricy? I hate hypocricy. I think that moment in church might have been the moment after my RE-conversion that I started questioning and thinking skeptically again. |
| Posted by: Wanna-be Writer Jan 23 2005, 09:10 AM | ||
I am just posting these on behalf of the people of a certain TV show. Bring it up with them. They tell me what to think and write. |
| Posted by: MadMac Jan 23 2005, 12:47 PM | ||
No wonder you're a wannabe. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Jan 23 2005, 01:24 PM | ||||
You are a 79 year old ex-colonel that has never been in the military from Canada that has a TV show do your thinking for you. Don't you wear your tin foil hat to keep the voices out? You really should you know. You just can't trust those TV voices, cause they just want your money. |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Jan 23 2005, 01:45 PM |
Speaking of puberty... |
| Posted by: Anomalie Jan 23 2005, 02:10 PM | ||||
What I said was not meant as an insult and my apologies if any was caused. It is just that many Christians display a frustrating lack of objectivity when trying to prove what they believe (which to an outsider comes across as a bit dumb). Saying Christianity changed my life is all good, but for it to be a proof it would have to be the only thing that had the power to change lives. Either that or everyone who becomes a Christian ought to have a life changing experience. Your statement of True Christianity further adds to the frustration because there is no universal definition of what is the true brand so you reserve the right to cop out and say so and so was a fake. Since none of this can be clearly defined or measured the proof is worthless in general. However its only value is in a personal experience with True Christianity, which I am sure you would say we have all never had... (lets just not go there!!!!) Your posts and 'proofs' are all welcome but really try and think how an outsider to the faith might see them. Post like this one are just spritual cannon fodder that only serve to cement the idea that Chritianity removes the ability to reason about issues like this. |
| Posted by: Zoe Grace Jan 23 2005, 05:43 PM | ||
How do you explain the fact that: 1. "true" hinduism changes lives 2. "true" atheism changes lives. 3. "true" buddhism changes lives. 4. "true" paganism changes lives. 5. "true" mormonism changes lives. I don't think I have to go on here. As the list could get REALLY REALLY long. And I haven't even added Asatru here...mainly because I doubt you know what it is...but I've seen major life changage with that path. Bottom line: Any religion/belief system/philosophy can make one a better person, a more hopeful person, allow them to see life more fully in more color. There are "miracles" in all religions. (i'm not including atheism as a religion...atheism isn't even an all-encompassing philosophy...but some people do not GEL with spirituality or religion at ALL. I've seen too many people who were formerly religious and tormented by it...let it all go, become atheist...and experience freedom...so I have to say that "true" atheism also changes lives.) Leaving Christianity and becoming Pagan changed my life for the better. WAY for the better. It doesn't make paganism the one true truth...it just makes it the right fit for me. |
| Posted by: pitchu Jan 23 2005, 08:40 PM | ||
Oh, and, oh, "The Daily Show!" I know how important hope is to you, Reach, and though electricity makes the world go 'round and ScotchBrite keeps it tidy, "The Daily Show" may be the world's only hope. So can we say: Electricity, ScotchBrite and "The Daily Show" changed my life! Whatever your answer, I'll continue to think of the above as my very own Holy Trinity. |
| Posted by: Cerise Jan 23 2005, 09:07 PM |
| As a real GTA Canadian, I must defend the intelligence of my people when I say that the majority of us are not like Wanna-be-writer. And some of us are not wanna be's. We can actually write.  |
| Posted by: Bill Johnson Jan 23 2005, 09:43 PM | ||
I don't need to explain anything. It's a non sequitur to imply that Christianity is true because it changes lives. Please stop trolling an offer some logical arguments. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Jan 24 2005, 08:55 AM | ||||
No chef...that's Oklahoma.
Texans...always copying Oklahoma. Sheesh... |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Jan 24 2005, 10:43 AM |
| They think it changes it. It is all pycological. If it makes them feel warm and fuzzy all over then more power to them. Many people can say the same for islam and buddhism. Religion is for the weak minded. |
| Posted by: Lokmer Jan 24 2005, 01:33 PM | ||
Although I share Reach and Pitchu's reverence for Scotch-brite and Electricity, I'm going to attempt a more thorough answer  True Christianity ™ DOES change lives. So does True Islam, True Jainism, True Buddhism, and serious pursuit of Star Trek. Sincere belief precipitates a sea-change in the heart of the sincere beleiver. By trusting in something greater than oneself - whether it is the benevolent will of a personal diety, or the wisdom of people who have come before you - something is opened up in the heart of many people. But the reason for this is not because these things by themselves have an inherent power, but rather because the myths, stories, and ideas conveyed by these things hold up a mirror to ourselves and our culture. They give people a way to deal with life that is easier to understand and morally comprehensible. For the very thoughtful person, they provide a metaphor that reflects the most troublesome and grandiose parts of themselves - that forces a person to face up to his own worst tendencies, and that reflection spurs one on to self-improvement of a genuine kind. For the less thoughtful person, they provide a system to live by, abdicating individual responsibility in exchange for a set of easy answers and programmatic solutions that may or may not be valuable or even good. But in either case (as well as in cases of those moved to atrocity, activism, violence, or monasticism by their faith) it does change lives, and sometimes for the better. But that has nothing to do with the "objective truth" of the thing, but is rather becasue of the character of the individual and the investment he puts into his religion. -Lokmer |
| Posted by: skankboy Jan 24 2005, 03:21 PM | ||
Testify! (Of course I'm a TRUE buddhist, what other kind is there...?) |
| Posted by: Matthew Jan 24 2005, 03:35 PM | ||
Many religions/cults/faiths have glowing testimonials about how their new spirituality changed their lives for the better. I have Mormon friends who probably have books filled with glowing testimonials and there's no doubt that I can befriend some J.W.'s with glowing testimonials who would be all too eager to share. Freethought changed my life for the better; I am more joyful than I have ever been and I am not ever going back to fideism. Matthew |
| Posted by: VulgarisPrime Jan 24 2005, 04:27 PM | ||
How do you explain that having a boulder dropped on you changes your life? Or having your lower body paralyzed? Or having a debilitating disease? All these, and your claim, have one main thing in common - they change your life usually FOR THE WORSE. Have you ever heard someone say, "Boy, I'm glad I had a car accident that killed three people and made it so I'll never walk again, boy howdy!" NO! So why imply that something that's as bad is such a blessing?! |
| Posted by: pitchu Jan 24 2005, 04:29 PM | ||
That would be the 12-pack ScotchBrite, right?  (Forgive me, Lok. You're brilliant. I'm a hoyden.) |
| Posted by: Lokmer Jan 26 2005, 03:56 PM | ||||
I'm brilliant? awww... I'm hoyden you to that statement! -Lokmer P.S. - 12 pack of scotch-brite? Wow...that's 3 years' supply! I'll take it! : |
| Posted by: Merlinfmct87 Jan 26 2005, 05:46 PM | ||||
Bastard beat me to it! (good show!) Merlin |
| Posted by: Amethyst_Moonstar Jan 26 2005, 06:48 PM |
| Let's see. True Christianity changed my life by giving me low self-esteem, when if I didn't have fundie parents or go to a fundie Lutheran church, I would have had more self-esteem. True Christianity changed my life by teachers who supposedly believed in it allowed other kids to bully me, even after my mom got sick with cancer. True Christianity made my mother constantly accuse me of going straight to hell just for disagreeing with her and being a normal kid. True Christianity changed my life by making me feel guilty for being a normal human being and having normal human wants and desires. I'm not even talking sex here, I was only a child and still thought boys were icky. I was made to feel horribly guilty about just about everything I said or did. And why? Because it was in "the Bible." I read the Bible before I was 12, and didn't understand any of it. At that age, I couldn't even figure out why there were so many "begats" in the beginning, but I read it because my mother wanted me to. At 13 or 14, I read it again and decided I couldn't believe in a religion that wanted to stone women for any reason, nor burn people at the stake for following another religion. I never told my mom, though. When my mother died, "true" Lutherans told my dad she was going to hell because she was afraid of death, a perfectly human thing. I now go to a liberal UCC church, primarily so my parents don't worry about me. I suppose most of you wouldn't consider that "true" Christianity because it's liberal, and the church I go to accepts gays. I honestly would rather die than be forced to hate someone just for being different from me without even knowing that person, because that is who I am. I've been accused of being "too sensitive" most of my life. I guess I am just "too sensitive" to be a Real True Christian ™. Nor do I want to be part of a religion that believes that everyone else who doesn't belong to that religion is going to burn in a bizarre alternate dimension made up completely of fire and brimstone and is populated with mythical demons. Not to mention that I believe the Bible is literature, and was never meant to be taken literally. But of course, that will send me straight to hell, won't it? I do think that Jesus was probably a historical figure, but that most of what he said was either exaggerated or outright made up by his followers to promote the new religion, or outright stolen from pagan religions that were popular at the time. Good thing I believe in reincarnation and second chances. Honestly, realizing that one can be spiritual without being religious changed my life. My self-esteem is much higher than it used to be, although I do have guilt attacks from time to time. But I am slowly breaking myself of that habit. ;) |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 04:01 AM | ||||
That's it right there, sister. I think I got it now. Electricity = God, the power source ScotchBrite = Son, the clean-up agent The Daily Show = Spirit, our daily source for guidance and inspiration Truly hopeful, Reach |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 04:04 AM | ||||||
That was North Carolina, silly Chef and NBBTB. Didn't you guys study geography? |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 04:08 AM | ||
Truth changes lives. Getting a hold of some truth changes lives. Imagine the first human who discovered the truth that he could "make" fire. |
| Posted by: Vixentrox Jan 27 2005, 05:00 AM |
| Notice Mr. Wanna-be hasn't had squat to say about all these other things that "change lives". Heck, every choice one makes in life "changes" you life in some small or not so small way. Do you try to run the stop light? You might make it through ok and get to where your going a little faster that keeps you from the 5 car pile up that happens 3 minutes later. Or, you might cause the 5 car pile up, or just get a ticket from a near by doughnut munching cop. |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 05:13 AM | ||
No kidding, Vix. Mr./Ms. Wanna-Be tends to drop a new thread here and ask, "What do you guys think about this?" and then he/she leaves for several weeks, only to return and do it all over again. I normally ignore this type of poster, realizing my time is valuable to me and I don't like to spend it (or waste it) on people who aren't making the slightest investment of themselves in this community whose opinions they seek and whose time they waste. I'm sure I'm not alone in this thinking. |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Jan 27 2005, 05:24 AM |
| This forum has changed my life. How do you explain that? |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 05:34 AM | ||
Isn't that The Truth? By the way, Neil, I'm sure enjoying your art on http://neilsama.deviantart.com/. |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Jan 27 2005, 05:50 AM |
| *throws on a cheesy salesmans mustache* That's right! Thank you, Reach. All of my side projects, new and old, are to be found there. Included in the collection is my http://www.deviantart.com/view/14348114/. |
| Posted by: Reach Jan 27 2005, 06:22 AM | ||
Regarding salesmen, well, the used-car type... |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Jan 27 2005, 09:23 AM | ||||
Like a race horse with blinders on. Any movement in his peripheral vision might frighten him and cause him to veer off-course. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Jan 27 2005, 09:42 AM | ||
Neil, That is great! I love it! |
| Posted by: Tocis Jan 27 2005, 11:00 AM |
| Wonderful, Neil! Simply wonderful! |
| Posted by: BlueGiant Jan 27 2005, 11:39 AM |
| Chango changed my friend's life. Various belief systems have changed mine (including true Christiantiy). What's your point? Any strong enough experience, especially emotional, can do that. There is no proof there. |
| Posted by: Amethyst_Moonstar Jan 27 2005, 05:04 PM | ||
Very true. Last year, I lost a friend to suicide. He was my roommate. He killed himself by starting a fire, in which I lost pretty much everything but my life. That changed my life. Now, I actually enjoy my life and try new thingsthat I otherwise wouldn't have (such as taking the bus downtown to a creative writing workshop last fall). Life is too short not to enjoy. I don't think we were supposed to spend it feeling guilty over enjoying every little thing. If that were true, we would all be Puritans. |