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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Your Gripe Against God. Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 06:52 AM So. Tell me honestly what your BIGGEST gripe against God was/is. If you had to name one thing, what would it be? (eg. Unanswered prayer, starving children, poor health, divorce, bad breath....eeeww) Just one thing. No monologues please, no comfy sofa type intellectual deep meaningful responses. Just what is, is what. Kevin: Posted by: Bruce Mar 10 2004, 06:57 AM Lack of existence. Posted by: brick Mar 10 2004, 07:03 AM His inability do to follow through on ANY of his assertions, most important of which is his providing the slightest evidence of his existence. Posted by: UV2003 Mar 10 2004, 07:10 AM QUOTE (brick @ Mar 10 2004, 07:03 AM) His inability do to follow through on ANY of his assertions, most important of which is his providing the slightest evidence of his existence. I have no gripe against the Christian concept of God. I cannot have a gripe against something I don't think exists literally. Your question is somewhat of a loaded question. It would be like me asking you what is your biggest gripe against Allah if I were Muslim. I won't go so far to say something like a "God" does not exist, but I don't think Jesus, the Christ,=God. To turn it around, what do you like most about your God? What do you like about him that Muslims can't like about Allah? Some of my Muslim friends like that Allah is "always there" for them. What's not to like about that? -UV Posted by: TexasFreethinker Mar 10 2004, 07:15 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 09:52 AM) So. Tell me honestly what your BIGGEST gripe against God was/is. I don't have gripes against fictional characters. (Hope that response wasn't too intellectual for you). Posted by: Skankboy Mar 10 2004, 07:22 AM He didn't give me the ray gun I wanted for christmas when I was five. No wait, that was the other mythical guy! Seriously though, I would say the bigotry/xenophobia he espouses... Posted by: bob Mar 10 2004, 07:28 AM No grip against god. I don't think he exists. My grip is against the attitude of the followers of this god, and the atrocious and absurd book that god-followers proclaim as true. Posted by: channelcat Mar 10 2004, 07:50 AM The claim that God wrote the Bible, then the contradictory claim that God is perfect. Posted by: I Broke Free Mar 10 2004, 07:52 AM Biggest gripe against god..... Show yourself Posted by: Zorra Mar 10 2004, 08:14 AM Biggest gripes against the christian god (as opposed to any real deity-type forces that may or may not exist): he has no respect for his Mama, and he sure doesn't know how to treat a lady. (See http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_05_10_archive.php Posted by: Judyism Mar 10 2004, 08:27 AM I have no real gripe with any god - my gripes usually are focused on the illogical espousings of the fundamentalist followers of whoever/whatever god they worship. Posted by: Fweethawt Mar 10 2004, 08:56 AM The Book! Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2004, 09:39 AM My biggest gripe? I wish everyone on this site lived next door to me. Everyone? Well, 99%. Is that ok? Edit: Could you put pitchu, my sister and beloved friend, on the right side, the place of honor? 2nd Edit: Can I have the Pacific Ocean at my bare feet and could Loren be there for company? 3rd Edit: Could IBF and his partner live across the street? We want to cook potstickers and BBQ together. 4th Edit: Can we have back what Vietnam stole from us? 5th Edit: Sorry, to lengthen the list, but can Lokmer and Kitty live next door in the house on my left side? I have a feeling we could talk for years. 6th Edit: Could my daughter marry someone on this site meaning one of you becomes actualized family? No matter how many times I might edit this piece, may I say thanks to asdf for starting the whole thing? As I told you before, I'm never giving up and never letting go. You are a friend for life. Posted by: brij Mar 10 2004, 09:45 AM My biggest gripe with god is why did he make us human beings such assholes. Posted by: Jazz Mar 10 2004, 09:49 AM This reminds of a time a pal o' mine took me to down to Lincoln Center. It started to rain and he began cursing God because his hair was all wet. Just the day before he had been cursing him because it was too dry! These anti-religious types sho' do be cryin' a lot. Posted by: brij Mar 10 2004, 09:53 AM QUOTE This reminds of a time a pal o' mine took me to down to Lincoln Center. It started to rain and he began cursing God because his hair was all wet. Just the day before he had been cursing him because it was too dry! These anti-religious types sho' do be cryin' a lot. Yeah i do the same, damm that christian god, why cant he make my hair just right? maybe i dont pray right. Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 09:54 AM hmmm . . . what is my biggest gripe with god? well, if the christian god or any other gods actually exists (which I feel that we cannot know) I personally think that he / she / it should make its presence known to EVERYONE. let us not forget the creation of hell, IF it exists. that is just horribly intolerant. Posted by: BillJ Mar 10 2004, 09:59 AM QUOTE (Jazz @ Mar 10 2004, 12:49 PM) This reminds of a time a pal o' mine took me to down to Lincoln Center. It started to rain and he began cursing God because his hair was all wet. Just the day before he had been cursing him because it was too dry! These anti-religious types sho' do be cryin' a lot. It seems that the fundies have been crying lately since the release of the dreaded movie The Passion of the Christ. Posted by: Judyism Mar 10 2004, 10:00 AM QUOTE (mandylibra1979 @ Mar 10 2004, 12:54 PM) hmmm . . . what is my biggest gripe with god? well, if the christian god or any other gods actually exists (which I feel that we cannot know) I personally think that he / she / it should make its presence known to EVERYONE. let us not forget the creation of hell, IF it exists. that is just horribly intolerant. Gosh, Mandy, isn't faith good enough? [SIZE=1]Disclaimer: Please note sarcasm. Heh.[/SIZE=1] Posted by: SuicydeAlley Mar 10 2004, 10:04 AM To gripe about god is like griping about the Borg. I prefer to gripe about things like gravity, or intrest rates. Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 10:15 AM QUOTE (Judyism @ Mar 10 2004, 02:00 PM) QUOTE (mandylibra1979 @ Mar 10 2004, 12:54 PM) hmmm . . . what is my biggest gripe with god? well, if the christian god or any other gods actually exists (which I feel that we cannot know) I personally think that he / she / it should make its presence known to EVERYONE. let us not forget the creation of hell, IF it exists. that is just horribly intolerant. Gosh, Mandy, isn't faith good enough? [SIZE=1]Disclaimer: Please note sarcasm. Heh.[/SIZE=1] **sarcasm has been noted** FAITH, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. -- Ambrose Bierce (The Devil's Dictionary) Posted by: Starflier Mar 10 2004, 10:29 AM I have no gripe with a nonexitent male deity. But I sure do with whomever invented him, wrote his "word", propagandized him & enforced his psuedo laws all these many centuries. If I had stayed long enough in the Wiccan religion & learned enough witchcraft, I'd likely find a spell to curse them with for all eternity. Also I'd organize group fire rituals & collect or steal Bibles to burn by the heaps as well as effigies of priests & gospel preachers to attone for the witch burnings & that of the Alexandria library & desecreation of the ancient Goddess temples & slavery of females. Good thing reason prevented me from joining any further organized teaching religions no matter which deity they espoused, female, male or both. Otherwise, given my oftentimes volcanic Italian temper, I could be in jail by now. I suppose I have my own intelligence, reason & logic to thank for that. Or maybe it's just the peace of mind I now have that prevented it. Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 11:21 AM My reason for asking my question was to find out if you became disillusioned with God at the same time you came to the conclusion that He did not exist. Were you waiting/expecting something to happen which never did, or did the doubt creep in as time went by? I want to understand your thought process, and how you reached your conclusions. I do not mean to trap you in any way. I am just a nosey bugger, and will continue to be one. Kevin: Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 11:41 AM kevin- I am agnostic so I neither believe or disbelieve in god. I feel that matters of an afterlife, deities, etc. cannot be known . . . at least not while we are alive. So if it can't be known then what is the use of living your life according to a religious doctrine in order to make it into a place that you aren't sure even exists? Posted by: Neil Mar 10 2004, 12:05 PM No disallusionment or anger here. My separation from God was very systematic and thought-out. I wasn't angry when I concluded that he wasn't there. My only gripe is with after-the-fact born again Christians thinking that I'm mad at God or don't like "his plan" or didn't have a prayer answered. None of that is true, and wish they'd stop asking. Posted by: chefranden Mar 10 2004, 12:06 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 01:21 PM) My reason for asking my question was to find out if you became disillusioned with God at the same time you came to the conclusion that He did not exist. Were you waiting/expecting something to happen which never did, or did the doubt creep in as time went by? I want to understand your thought process, and how you reached your conclusions. I do not mean to trap you in any way. I am just a nosey bugger, and will continue to be one. Kevin: I don't have a gripe against a non-existent being. That would be silly. As Sweetie would tell you, I'm not given to silliness. The process of getting to knowledge of non-existence could be likened to the clown trying to keep many plates spinning on the ends of sticks. Eventually all my plates fell down, and only empty sticks were left. Posted by: SuicydeAlley Mar 10 2004, 12:19 PM Kevin, QUOTE My reason for asking my question was to find out if you became disillusioned with God at the same time you came to the conclusion that He did not exist. I became disillusioned with the concept of the Christian god when I reached adult hood and was able to have my own opinions. My beliefs about him changed when I began my deconversion a few years ago. I have not yet come to the conclusion that an entity known to man as the christian god does not exist. I have however, descended him from Supreme Almighty Guru of Everything to a disgruntled coworker intent on taking over the corporation. QUOTE Were you waiting/expecting something to happen which never did, or did the doubt creep in as time went by? The doubt did creep in as time went by. The 'turning' point in my 'belief structure' came the day my kitten was found after being lost for 4 days. I had been struggling with my deconversion and this was the 'last straw'. I felt I could handle no more. My cat means the world to me. To make a long story shorter, I prayed. I searched. No cat. For 3 days. At the end of the 3rd day I put up posters with a reward. I went to every door handing them out personally to those who would answer. I searched. I stopped praying. Day 4, morning, the phone rings. The caller says they had found my cat 3 days ago and I can come pick her up. They did not refuse the reward. I realised than my prayers were not answered. i got my cat back because I made an effort and another human being was motivated by greed, not compassion from god. QUOTE I want to understand your thought process, and how you reached your conclusions. I do not mean to trap you in any way. I am just a nosey bugger, and will continue to be one. I hope this helps you understand my thoughts and circumstances and as long as you continue to be a polite nosey buggar I won't feel trapped in any way....lol Alley Posted by: davety227 Mar 10 2004, 12:20 PM I don't have a gripe with god. I do not believe he exists. The problems I had were theological issues. See extremeone's recent posts. Posted by: sexkitten Mar 10 2004, 12:29 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 06:52 AM) So. Tell me honestly what your BIGGEST gripe against God was/is. What's your biggest gripe against the Sith Lord Emporer Palpatine? Like others have said, you can't really have a gripe against someone who you don't believe is real. Perhaps biggest gripe against Christianity or against Christians would be a more productive conversation? Posted by: IamLight Mar 10 2004, 12:32 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 06:52 AM) So. Tell me honestly what your BIGGEST gripe against God was/is. If you had to name one thing, what would it be? (eg. Unanswered prayer, starving children, poor health, divorce, bad breath....eeeww) Just one thing. No monologues please, no comfy sofa type intellectual deep meaningful responses. Just what is, is what. Kevin: I can't answer that without a definition of "God". What or whose concept of "God" are we to gripe about? But to add, the anthropomorphizing of "God" always tickles me. Posted by: Lokmer Mar 10 2004, 12:41 PM http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2829 I posted on this very topic last night -Lokmer Posted by: Skankboy Mar 10 2004, 12:47 PM QUOTE What's your biggest gripe against the Sith Lord Emporer Palpatine? You mean other than his atrocious fashion sense? Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 02:02 PM Thanks for the direct answers (even the sarcastic ones). If I made a decision based on what I know, then I would have to say there is no God. But what do I know? I know what I am told, what I read, and what I see around me. If I am not smart enough to know that there isn't a God, then maybe I'm also not smart enough to know that there IS one. The only common denominator is that I am not smart enough, and from my two possible choices. I choose the latter because it has more to do with love than anything I have come across before. It is a postive influence in my life, if I chose to let it be so. People like me need God; need to believe in God. Please don't pee on my bonfire, it keeps me warm on those cold lonely nights. Kevin: Posted by: UV2003 Mar 10 2004, 02:09 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 02:02 PM) Thanks for the direct answers (even the sarcastic ones). If I made a decision based on what I know, then I would have to say there is no God. But what do I know? I know what I am told, what I read, and what I see around me. If I am not smart enough to know that there isn't a God, then maybe I'm also not smart enough to know that there IS one. The only common denominator is that I am not smart enough, and from my two possible choices. I choose the latter because it has more to do with love than anything I have come across before. It is a postive influence in my life, if I chose to let it be so. People like me need God; need to believe in God. Please don't pee on my bonfire, it keeps me warm on those cold lonely nights. Kevin: KJ, you are honest. Whatever you end up believing, stay that way! Posted by: TexasFreethinker Mar 10 2004, 02:33 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 05:02 PM) People like me need God; need to believe in God. Please don't pee on my bonfire, it keeps me warm on those cold lonely nights. Seems like you've come directly to the pissoir - why would you keep coming back if you're worried about your bonfire getting wet? Posted by: A person Mar 10 2004, 02:48 PM I can't give you any particular gripe. I was reading the Bible and various things stuck me as factually wrong (I have no idea why I felt this, I just did) or morally wrong (I don't think I need to expound on those things). The nail in the coffin, though, was when I was told that I was going to hell because my physical gender isn't the correct one. I have an intersex condition, meaning my sex was ambiguous at birth. The doctors assigned the wrong one. For wanting to correct this birth defect, I was told I was barred from salvation. And they backed it up with Bible verses. So I'm stuck here, thinking- I have a fucking birth defect. My gender was chosen at birth because THAT one would be easier to make appear cosmetically correct. It was the wrong one. I want to FIX this because I live in nothing short of hell. If God creates all things, he created me with ambiguous genitalia, and I'm damned to hell because of a choice other humans made. Add that to a concept that God doesn't want anyone to go to hell and it doesn't jive. I couldn't actually believe in that god anymore- not because I was supposedly destined for hell simply by my existence, but because those two concepts don't mix. Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 02:57 PM QUOTE Seems like you've come directly to the pissoir - why would you keep coming back if you're worried about your bonfire getting wet? Apart from being a glutton for punishment, I happen to like some of you miserable bastards. KP Posted by: bob Mar 10 2004, 03:02 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 02:02 PM) If I am not smart enough to know that there isn't a God, then maybe I'm also not smart enough to know that there IS one. The only common denominator is that I am not smart enough, and from my two possible choices I choose the latter... AHHHhhh but Kevin, you are smart enough. You just have to remove your blinders. Posted by: SuicydeAlley Mar 10 2004, 03:23 PM Kevin, I understand the need for believing in your concept of god, my mother and daughter are the same way. If god keeps some warm at night by all means believe, but don't burn me with the coals of zealousness attempting by force to get me to agree your fire is the warmest or the best one built. If mine is failing and I can't seem to rekindle it, I might wander in to your camp and aks for advice, deciding myself wether to take it or not. Or you might wander over and offer some, still my decision to take it or leave it. I might just want to sit in the cold for a spell. Alley PS What does intelligence have to do with it? A person does not have to posess intelligence to know gravity works. Gravity is obvious and provable. You are equating faith in something not provable with your IQ. Don't be silly. ......and that would be Bastards and Bitches...or you could just say Bitches. Bitches works for both male and female but Bastards doesn't work when there are females involved and you are adressing the group as a whole. Of course you could have only BEEN adressing the males here and not the females at all, thereby rendering this addendum moot. Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 04:03 PM kevin- who syas that you HAVE to make a choice at all? you could just simply admit that you cannot know one way or the other. you could be agnostic if you wanted to. things aren't always black or white . . . sometimes there is a gray and I feel that religion fits into the gray area perfectly. if you feel though that you HAVE to believe and that you need something that you aren't even sure exists in your life then that is your choice and if you are comfortable living that way then so be it. anyhow, welcome to the forum. I look forward to reading more of your posts! a person- I really don't know what to say except that I am sorry you have had to go through all of that. life should be easier or at the very least the people in our lives should be more understanding and compassionate. welcome to the forum! I hope you stick around! -mandy Posted by: chefranden Mar 10 2004, 04:26 PM Kevin, Person has the best gripe. How would you answer him/her? Here the problem of evil rears its ugly head and there is no way you can assign it to free will. QUOTE (Psalm 139) 13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. God is responsible by his own word. I take no pleasure in telling you that you are not in as safe a place as you suppose. What cute little surprises does the Lord have in store for you? chef Person, I hope you stick around. Maybe we can help hold your hand as you go through your trials. chef Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 04:49 PM Person QUOTE The doctors assigned the wrong one. For wanting to correct this birth defect, I was told I was barred from salvation. And they backed it up with Bible verses. Chef QUOTE Person has the best gripe. How would you answer him/her? Here the problem of evil rears its ugly head and there is no way you can assign it to free will Chef: Person's situation sounded a little strange to me, especially that quote above, so I left him/her alone. Kevin: Posted by: Outsider Mar 10 2004, 05:01 PM KJPee, The only gripe I had was when your Avatar was Sponge Bob. It was hard to have a discussion with that goofy character, just kidding. No gripes here and I know it has been said a billion times, but our "gripes" really have nothing to do with God. Personally I did not leave due to any gripes, but was forced out by my own intellectual honesty. Posted by: Judyism Mar 10 2004, 05:03 PM Hey A Person, I hope you will stick around, too. There's a pretty neat bunch of people here from what I can tell in my 11 days of posting. Welcome aboard! QUOTE Chef: Person's situation sounded a little strange to me, especially that quote above, so I left him/her alone. Kevin: Person's situation is not completely uncommon. There has been some publicity regarding several people who have experienced the same thing over the last several years. Doctors, without letting a child grow into one sex or the other when the child is born with ambiguous sexuality, have in the past made the decision to choose one sex over the other. Sometimes with the parents wishes for a particular gender being the deciding factor. They figure they have a 50/50 chance of getting it right, and if the child has no memory or knowledge of the surgery, that they will develop into whichever sex is chosen - even if it is not the right one. I sincerely hope the publicity surrrounding these cases has prompted the medical community to rethink the methods they used in the past. Cheers, Judy Posted by: Starflier Mar 10 2004, 05:29 PM QUOTE (SuicydeAlley @ Mar 10 2004, 03:23 PM) ......and that would be Bastards and Bitches...or you could just say Bitches. Bitches works for both male and female but Bastards doesn't work when there are females involved and you are adressing the group as a whole. Of course you could have only BEEN adressing the males here and not the females at all, thereby rendering this addendum moot. Huh? Scuze the intrusion, Alley, & not to be nit-picky, off-topic or anything like that, but I don't get your turned around gender meanings for "bastards" & "bitches". Do you know something I don't? I thought the primary original meaning of a "bitch" is a female dog, thus a female... period. "Bastard", on the other hand, originally meant "illegitimate child of either gender. No? Yes? Or have the meanings changed in the newer dictionaries now? Posted by: Starflier Mar 10 2004, 05:32 PM QUOTE (A person @ Mar 10 2004, 02:48 PM) The nail in the coffin, though, was when I was told that I was going to hell because my physical gender isn't the correct one. I have an intersex condition, meaning my sex was ambiguous at birth. Hi Person, I'm so sorry to learn of your plight. That must be truly tough to deal with. I invite you to hang around here & perhaps we can offer some support. Welcome here anyway. Starflier Posted by: chefranden Mar 10 2004, 05:47 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 06:49 PM) Chef: Person's situation sounded a little strange to me, especially that quote above, so I left him/her alone. Kevin: It is rare but real: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Gender/intersexuals/article_jh_intro.htm Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 06:27 PM QUOTE It is rare but real: http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Gender/intersexuals/article_jh_intro.htm I live and learn. My heart goes out to you, Person. I apologize for my ignorance. Kevin: Posted by: michelle Mar 10 2004, 06:59 PM My gripe with a God would be that if he existed he doesnt let us grow up. We are to be dependant on him like a child. Now how am I gonna get by in the world as a 13 year old 37 year old? It just wont work. Its like the mom or dad who doesnt want the kid to move out of the house. I know somebody will throw the free will thing at me on that one but I hardly think that Christians actually have free will. I mean they do but their not using it. I dont like the idea of hell either because it has been known to make people go crazy, literally. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 10 2004, 07:07 PM For "Person" I would really be interested in what Bible verses were quoted that would say that someone with your problem is going to hell. Michelle, the thing I LIKE about hell is that there are some crimes so henious, that hell is the only thing that makes sense as punishment for them. If Hitler had survived the war, probably his punisment would have been execution. That would have been easy compared to the suffering that he inflicted on millions of people. Hell will be very appropriate for him. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Mar 10 2004, 07:14 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 10 2004, 10:07 PM) Michelle, the thing I LIKE about hell is that there are some crimes so henious, that hell is the only thing that makes sense as punishment for them. If Hitler had survived the war, probably his punisment would have been execution. That would have been easy compared to the suffering that he inflicted on millions of people. Hell will be very appropriate for him. I know the Hitler thing is worn out, but I can't help but point out a couple of things. 1. According to most evangelical christians, Hitler could have been saved by a death-bed conversion and he'd be on his way to heaven, no matter what crimes he committed on earth. 2. Hitler killed far fewer humans than god has sent to hell according to his own book. It amazes me that a christian can overlook all the genocide attributed to bible-god and then say how horrible Hitler was. They're both monsters (if you believe what the bible says is true.) Posted by: Fweethawt Mar 10 2004, 07:15 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 10 2004, 10:07 PM) For "Person" I would really be interested in what Bible verses were quoted that would say that someone with your problem is going to hell. Michelle, the thing I LIKE about hell is that there are some crimes so henious, that hell is the only thing that makes sense as punishment for them. If Hitler had survived the war, probably his punisment would have been execution. That would have been easy compared to the suffering that he inflicted on millions of people. Hell will be very appropriate for him. Hell is appropriate for nobody Jimmy. There are some people who would rather be in what you call hell, than to attempt to dwell in bliss knowing that anyone is there. ANYONE. Therefore, the right thing to do would be to dismiss the concept altogether. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Mar 10 2004, 07:18 PM QUOTE (A person @ Mar 10 2004, 05:48 PM) So I'm stuck here, thinking- I have a fucking birth defect. My gender was chosen at birth because THAT one would be easier to make appear cosmetically correct. It was the wrong one. I want to FIX this because I live in nothing short of hell. If God creates all things, he created me with ambiguous genitalia, and I'm damned to hell because of a choice other humans made. You're welcome here A Person, no matter what your genitalia arrangement or sexual orientation is. I look forward to hearing more from you. Posted by: Outsider Mar 10 2004, 07:19 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Mar 10 2004, 10:14 PM) I know the Hitler thing is worn out, but I can't help but point out a couple of things. 1. According to most evangelical christians, Hitler could have been saved by a death-bed conversion and he'd be on his way to heaven, no matter what crimes he committed on earth. 2. Hitler killed far fewer humans than god has sent to hell according to his own book. It amazes me that a christian can overlook all the genocide attributed to bible-god and then say how horrible Hitler was. They're both monsters (if you believe what the bible says is true.) TF, Not trying to continue this Hitler topic more, but you forgot one more point. 3. Most of Hitler's victims were Orthodox Jews and would be frying along Hitler in the same Hell. Posted by: michelle Mar 10 2004, 07:21 PM With the world I live in, Hell isnt even neccassary. Theres a whole bunch of crazy humans walking around who can & do things to each other that make hell look like a cake walk. Posted by: BillJ Mar 10 2004, 07:35 PM JimmyDtD, If people go to hell for eternity then the only purpose of hell would be to satisfy the sadistic behaviors of God. If hell is about learning your lesson what good is this lesson if one cannot escape? Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 07:37 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 10 2004, 11:07 PM) For "Person" I would really be interested in what Bible verses were quoted that would say that someone with your problem is going to hell. Michelle, the thing I LIKE about hell is that there are some crimes so henious, that hell is the only thing that makes sense as punishment for them. If Hitler had survived the war, probably his punisment would have been execution. That would have been easy compared to the suffering that he inflicted on millions of people. Hell will be very appropriate for him. Per chance, IF hell does not exists then shouldn't people be punished while they are alive? Think about it; if someone in your family were murdered wouldn't you want some type of punishment to be exacted NOW? Posted by: chefranden Mar 10 2004, 07:45 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 10 2004, 09:07 PM) For "Person" I would really be interested in what Bible verses were quoted that would say that someone with your problem is going to hell. Michelle, the thing I LIKE about hell is that there are some crimes so henious, that hell is the only thing that makes sense as punishment for them. If Hitler had survived the war, probably his punisment would have been execution. That would have been easy compared to the suffering that he inflicted on millions of people. Hell will be very appropriate for him. If he went Jimmy. Maybe he repented after he killed himself but before he actually died. That is the flaw in your justice system. Posted by: SuicydeAlley Mar 10 2004, 08:40 PM QUOTE (Starflier @ Mar 10 2004, 06:29 PM) QUOTE (SuicydeAlley @ Mar 10 2004, 03:23 PM) ......and that would be Bastards and Bitches...or you could just say Bitches. Bitches works for both male and female but Bastards doesn't work when there are females involved and you are adressing the group as a whole. Of course you could have only BEEN adressing the males here and not the females at all, thereby rendering this addendum moot. Huh? Scuze the intrusion, Alley, & not to be nit-picky, off-topic or anything like that, but I don't get your turned around gender meanings for "bastards" & "bitches". Do you know something I don't? I thought the primary original meaning of a "bitch" is a female dog, thus a female... period. "Bastard", on the other hand, originally meant "illegitimate child of either gender. No? Yes? Or have the meanings changed in the newer dictionaries now? Yes, bitches refer to females but is used when one would like to degrade a man. I always thought bastard was an illigitimate male, I never thought about females....lol I stand corrected. I hadn't looked it up in a dictionary, I was going off of the flow of insults one finds in a chat room. Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 08:43 PM QUOTE If he went Jimmy. Maybe he repented after he killed himself but before he actually died. That is the flaw in your justice system. Chef: Wouldn't he actually be dead if he killed himself? Where is the flaw? On a complete tangent: I saw photos of some of the people here, on the Randy Sweatt web site gallery thingy. I am amazed to find that you all look like normal people I see everyday at work! I type words into this monitor, and responses miraculously come back. I never really believed any of you actually existed. Things will never be the same, now that I've seen your faces. You all look like....christians! I need to go lie down now... Kevin. Posted by: SuicydeAlley Mar 10 2004, 08:45 PM lol Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 08:50 PM QUOTE (SuicydeAlley @ Mar 10 2004, 09:45 PM) lol QUOTE lol I know. And you are all so young!!! I've got socks older than most of you. Oh, where's my bible? Posted by: chefranden Mar 10 2004, 09:04 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 10:43 PM) QUOTE If he went Jimmy. Maybe he repented after he killed himself but before he actually died. That is the flaw in your justice system. Chef: Wouldn't he actually be dead if he killed himself? Where is the flaw? The flaw is that he wouldn't have to suffer hell. If he repented at the right moment, he would die in grace. Hypothetical Story: A young girl is forceable raped on a college campus. She is beaten severely and left for dead. She recovers physically, but not psycologicly and she turns to drugs and prostitution and turns her back on XianGod who she feels failed to come to her aid both during and after the attack. Mean while the rapist is out looking for another victim and stumbles across a Chic Tract. Upon reading it he realizes the burden of his sin, he repents says the sinners prayer like he reads in the back of the track. He replaces the tract and goes on his way bemused by the lifted burden. With his mind on his savior he doesn't see the bus that kills him. He is on his way to the pearly gates. The hooker a short while later finds the Chic Tract. She laughs and tears it to bits. Then she shoots up for the last time and is on her way to the lake of fire. This is Xian Justice! Posted by: Starflier Mar 10 2004, 09:08 PM QUOTE (SuicydeAlley @ Mar 10 2004, 08:40 PM) Huh? Scuze the intrusion, Alley, & not to be nit-picky, off-topic or anything like that, but I don't get your turned around gender meanings for "bastards" & "bitches". Do you know something I don't? I thought the primary original meaning of a "bitch" is a female dog, thus a female... period. "Bastard", on the other hand, originally meant "illegitimate child of either gender. No? Yes? Or have the meanings changed in the newer dictionaries now? [/QUOTE] Yes, bitches refer to females but is used when one would like to degrade a man. I always thought bastard was an illigitimate male, I never thought about females....lol I stand corrected. I hadn't looked it up in a dictionary, I was going off of the flow of insults one finds in a chat room. Okay, thx. I'm just trying to get caught up with some of the newer word meanings. The younger generations keep changing things so much. Previous insults understood. Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 09:10 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 11 2004, 12:43 AM) QUOTE If he went Jimmy. Maybe he repented after he killed himself but before he actually died. That is the flaw in your justice system. Chef: Wouldn't he actually be dead if he killed himself? Where is the flaw? On a complete tangent: I saw photos of some of the people here, on the Randy Sweatt web site gallery thingy. I am amazed to find that you all look like normal people I see everyday at work! I type words into this monitor, and responses miraculously come back. I never really believed any of you actually existed. Things will never be the same, now that I've seen your faces. You all look like....christians! I need to go lie down now... Kevin. It's funny isn't it, Kevin? We actually ARE normal people who exist. We could be anyone you know. We could be a co-worker, we could be family member or a friend and perhaps you would never know that we were an atheist, agnostic, etc. You are right; things will never be the same now for you. Maybe, hopefully, you will become friends with us and who knows . . . in time . . . perhaps you will even join us. Posted by: Guest Mar 10 2004, 09:22 PM QUOTE Maybe, hopefully, you will become friends with us and who knows . . . in time . . . perhaps you will even join us. One thing at a time Mandy. I still can't get over Chef looking like Colonel Sanders. Posted by: KJPee Mar 10 2004, 09:30 PM QUOTE Hypothetical Story: Chef: God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. Posted by: Sanguine Mar 10 2004, 09:38 PM QUOTE God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. all that old testament hate and hair trigger vengeance.... yeah, he's on a WHOLE other plane of emotional intelligence......... Posted by: mandylibra1979 Mar 10 2004, 09:39 PM QUOTE (Guest @ Mar 11 2004, 01:22 AM) QUOTE Maybe, hopefully, you will become friends with us and who knows . . . in time . . . perhaps you will even join us. One thing at a time Mandy. I still can't get over Chef looking like Colonel Sanders. ha ha . . . chef looks like a big ol' teddy bear to me! Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 07:58 AM Texasfreethinker: "2. Hitler killed far fewer humans than god has sent to hell according to his own book. It amazes me that a christian can overlook all the genocide attributed to bible-god and then say how horrible Hitler was. They're both monsters (if you believe what the bible says is true.)" This though doesn't really answer your point, Texas, but nobody gets out of life alive. Everybody that ever lived is now dead, or will be dead eventually. By the way, just curious, is that hairy guy with the towel in your avatar actually you? I'll try to answer BillJ later. Posted by: Reach Mar 11 2004, 08:08 AM QUOTE (mandylibra1979 @ Mar 11 2004, 12:39 AM) ha ha . . . chef looks like a big ol' teddy bear to me! I always thought so too, Mandy. Posted by: Starflier Mar 11 2004, 09:29 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 09:30 PM) God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. It's always a puzzlement to me that some people know so much about what the xtian male deity is or isn't. Like he's inside them speaking through them. More like they imagine they've got a direct line of communication with him that no one else has. Or that their interpretation of what he's saying through or to them is the only valid truth. This is just like channeling any entity or deity. Such as the new age types who channel messages from Seth, Archangel Michael, Jesus Sananda, the Virgin Mary or any of the "ascended masters" as they refer to them. I see no difference between the latter channelers who xtians poo poo & xtians who channel god. Because there isn't any difference at all. It's the pot calling the kettle black. It's also the height of arrogance or conceit to assume a supernatural deity or powerfully divine entity lives inside oneself. And constantly speaks through that person who is the enttity's divinely special & chosen mouthpiece. This is tantamount to assuming one is the same as Jesus speaking for his father, god or as the supreme being himself. It's the same as assuming they're Jesus then, isn't it? Posted by: Starflier Mar 11 2004, 09:32 AM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 07:58 AM) This though doesn't really answer your point, Texas, but nobody gets out of life alive. Everybody that ever lived is now dead, or will be dead eventually. Some physical immortalists would disagree with you. But then I guess they even have their limit tho it might be thousands or even billions of years of embodied life. Posted by: Skankboy Mar 11 2004, 09:34 AM Agreed Starflier. In many circles, claiming to hear and know the voice of God is heresy. Though I like the Simpsons take on it. Homer has a dream in which God tells him it's OK to start his own religion. Of course, no one believes him: QUOTE Lisa: Why are you dedicating your life to blasphemy? Homer: Don't worry, sweetheart. If I'm wrong, I'll recant on my deathbed. -- Always have a backup plan, ``Homer the Heretic'' Posted by: Starflier Mar 11 2004, 09:37 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 08:50 PM) I know. And you are all so young!!! I've got socks older than most of you. Ya mean you're older than me or chef? Posted by: Starflier Mar 11 2004, 09:42 AM QUOTE (Skankboy @ Mar 11 2004, 09:34 AM) Agreed Starflier. In many circles, claiming to hear and know the voice of God is heresy. Though I like the Simpsons take on it. Homer has a dream in which God tells him it's OK to start his own religion. Of course, no one believes him: QUOTE Lisa: Why are you dedicating your life to blasphemy? Homer: Don't worry, sweetheart. If I'm wrong, I'll recant on my deathbed. -- Always have a backup plan, ``Homer the Heretic'' Yeah, Plan B is always a good idea. Posted by: Caddius Mar 11 2004, 10:06 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 08:52 AM) So. Tell me honestly what your BIGGEST gripe against God was/is. If you had to name one thing, what would it be? (eg. Unanswered prayer, starving children, poor health, divorce, bad breath....eeeww) Just one thing. No monologues please, no comfy sofa type intellectual deep meaningful responses. Just what is, is what. Kevin: That he can't just come down here and get us all straightened out. Instead He has left us with a guessing game, ducking it out with a power angel HE threw out and letting people run over his people at every turn. Or better put, because he doesn't exist or has nothing to do with us, my grip is really on me for ever actually buying into the bull. And against the religious society that is constantly having to fight to keep people believing it. Posted by: God's Prosecutor Mar 11 2004, 10:08 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 11:30 PM) QUOTE Hypothetical Story: Chef: God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. Sorry. Maybe I'm slow today. What does this comment have to do with Chef's hypothetical story? Also, why do you think God doesn't have to same emotions we have? Assuming we are created in BibleGod's images, then I would think that you speak heresy. If God does not have the same emotion's that we have, (i.e. GodLove is different in some way than HumanLove) then how can we relate and what would be the purpose? How does GodLove, if it exists, distinguish itself from HumanIndifference. Posted by: Lanakila Mar 11 2004, 10:38 AM I don't believe God exists. But if their is some type of God it cannot be the Christian God for many reasons. My biggest gripe with the Christian God is hell. Posted by: KJPee Mar 11 2004, 10:40 AM QUOTE QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 11:30 PM) QUOTE Hypothetical Story: Chef: God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. Sorry. Maybe I'm slow today. What does this comment have to do with Chef's hypothetical story? GP An omniscient God would not be limited in any way. If God had the same emotions as we do, then He would be vulnerable, which would make Him weak, which He can't be. I would expect that His decisions have a higher purpose, since He is greater than us in every way. I was trying to convey that to Chef after reading his little story. KJPee Posted by: Bruce Mar 11 2004, 12:46 PM An omniscient god would indeed be limited. If this deity is omniscient, then it knows everything that has happened, is happening or will happen in the future with absolute knowledge. If this is true, then this deity cannot effect any change to anything or anyone. Moreover, this deity cannot have any free will of it's own. If this deity can change it's mind about any action or thought it has, then it is not omniscient. If anything or anyone in the universe can also effect a change, then this deity is not omniscient. Omniscience restricts random actions or free choices to mere illusions. Thus if god is omniscient and indeed the Bible is it's revelation, then it has lied about our own free will and the instances where god claims to have changed it's mind due to repentence of people or for other reasons. Either way, the claim that the biblegod is or is not omniscient, effectively reveals the Christian theology for the jumbled, incoherent mythology it is. //Bruce// Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 01:30 PM Lanakila hell is not the same for every offense. Hell will be more tolerable for some than for others. Posted by: Guest Mar 11 2004, 01:42 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 01:30 PM) Lanakila hell is not the same for every offense. Hell will be more tolerable for some than for others. That is such crap. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 01:43 PM "If people go to hell for eternity then the only purpose of hell would be to satisfy the sadistic behaviors of God. If hell is about learning your lesson what good is this lesson if one cannot escape?" BillJ you are in a burning building. A fireman knocks at your door and tells you to follow him out. He tells you that all escape routes are cut off except one. You start to follow him down the hallway, then realize that he is taking you past the apartment of a neighbor whom you hate. You never like to walk that way. You stop to decide...do I follow him or do I try to figure something else out? He keeps going....you hesitate.....it's your choice.... (you write the end of the story for yourself) Posted by: Judyism Mar 11 2004, 01:43 PM QUOTE (Guest @ Mar 11 2004, 04:42 PM) QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 01:30 PM) Lanakila hell is not the same for every offense. Hell will be more tolerable for some than for others. That is such crap. That was me, btw. Forgot to log in. Posted by: Reach Mar 11 2004, 01:49 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 04:43 PM) BillJ you are in a burning building. A fireman knocks at your door and tells you to follow him out. He tells you that all escape routes are cut off except one. You start to follow him down the hallway, then realize that he is taking you past the apartment of a neighbor whom you hate. Not to argue with you here, Jimmy, but BillJ is not in a burning building. How can he relate to this analogy? Can you redraw this? Thanks. Posted by: Quicksand Mar 11 2004, 01:51 PM hey veritas.... QUOTE Hell will be more tolerable for some than for others. where do you base that on? just curious. is it a dante-thing, or something biblically related? quicksand Posted by: Judyism Mar 11 2004, 01:52 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 04:43 PM) BillJ you are in a burning building. A fireman knocks at your door and tells you to follow him out. He tells you that all escape routes are cut off except one. You start to follow him down the hallway, then realize that he is taking you past the apartment of a neighbor whom you hate. You never like to walk that way. You stop to decide...do I follow him or do I try to figure something else out? He keeps going....you hesitate.....it's your choice.... (you write the end of the story for yourself) Bad analogy. Posted by: Skankboy Mar 11 2004, 01:55 PM QUOTE "If people go to hell for eternity then the only purpose of hell would be to satisfy the sadistic behaviors of God. If hell is about learning your lesson what good is this lesson if one cannot escape?" Is this a quote from somewhere? Please give references if possible... The only Hell, I've ever heard of is ETERNAL. If hell is only temporary, but Heaven's forever, then what's the big deal. You do your time, "burn" off your sin and boom your in heaven. I'm not trying to trivialize the issue, but when you're working against the backdrop of infinity, anything finite is practically non-existant... Posted by: AggieNostic Mar 11 2004, 01:58 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 04:43 PM) BillJ you are in a burning building. A fireman knocks at your door and tells you to follow him out. He tells you that all escape routes are cut off except one. You start to follow him down the hallway, then realize that he is taking you past the apartment of a neighbor whom you hate. You never like to walk that way. You stop to decide...do I follow him or do I try to figure something else out? He keeps going....you hesitate.....it's your choice.... Why do Christians use such lame analogies? You can see and hear the fireman. Presumably you understand what he is saying. The same cannot be said of biblegod, who has done a piss-poor job of communicating to human beings. And, yes, I include all of the holy books in existence in that statement along with all of biblegod's supposed believers who are some of the most ignorant and incoherent people on Earth. If biblegod would do even half the stuff he was alleged to have done during the "time of Christ," I'd believe. Heck, if Christians could do half the stuff Jesus said they would (greater things than this you will do in my name, etc.)., I'd be a believer. Instead we get nothing but excuses for why biblegod won't (or can't) do miracles today. Keep in mind that people were far more ignorant during Jesus' time. It wouldn't have taken much to convince them of supernaturalism. Yet, biblegod held nothing back and showered them with miracles. Today, we are not nearly as ignorant and we have many explanations for things once considered unexplainable. The bar to convince people that a supernatural realm exists is much higher. Biblegod's decision? Don't do anything miraculous. What a genius! Posted by: Bruce Mar 11 2004, 02:27 PM JimmyDTD, Dude, have you not understood? We don't believe in your fairy tales any more. We are simply discussing the baseline absurdities of the mythology. So, in order to be fair and consistent, here is a point to ponder on par with the concept of hell. Which is more powerful, an Imperial Class Star Destroyer or a Borg Cube? Fantasy....entertaining as long as you don't base your life on it. //Bruce// Posted by: chefranden Mar 11 2004, 03:23 PM QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 11 2004, 12:40 PM) QUOTE QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 10 2004, 11:30 PM) QUOTE Hypothetical Story: Chef: God does not have the same emotions we have. None of us would ever die if He did. Sorry. Maybe I'm slow today. What does this comment have to do with Chef's hypothetical story? GP An omniscient God would not be limited in any way. If God had the same emotions as we do, then He would be vulnerable, which would make Him weak, which He can't be. I would expect that His decisions have a higher purpose, since He is greater than us in every way. I was trying to convey that to Chef after reading his little story. KJPee My little story has nothing to do with XianGod's emotions. It is merely a picture of his justice. It was written in response to the question about Hitler repenting before he died, ie Homer Simpson's plan B. By the way justice is not a remedy for immorality, at worst it is just retribution, at best it is a lesson to the perp not to do it again. Once the evil is done it is done and cannot be undone. Since XianGod can tell what is in your heart before you act (Gen 22:12) there is no need for him to allow evil to be consummated. Therefore he can have both free will and moral existence. No matter how you slice the cake, if XianGod exists, he is responsible for all evil, in the same way that the priest and the levite were responsible for passing by on the other side of the road. However since it is impossible for XianGod to be responsible for evil, it is also impossible for XianGod to exist. Therefore since evil exists, XianGod does not. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 04:55 PM Reach, True, we are not in a burning building in the sense that we see imminent danger all around us and know that we need to escape, however if you consider your life and how frail it is, and are aware that death lies ahead, be it today, or 20 years from now, we are in a sort of danger that is very real. It is interesting that when a person receives news that he has a terminal disease, he begins to live his life differently, making the most of the time, etc. His neighbor, who is the same age perhaps, without the same disease, does not live life that way at all, but lives as if his time is unlimited. The truth is, that the neighbor with no disease could be dead tomorrow, through whatever circumstance, even though he is healthy. The burning building analogy helps to heighten the sense of danger, because, truthfully none of us is guaranteed tomorrow. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 05:03 PM Quicksand the idea that Hell will be more tolerable for some than others comes from scriptures like this: Mt:10:15: Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Mt:11:22: But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. Mt:11:24: But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. Mk:6:11: And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Lk:10:12: But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. Lk:10:14: But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. Note that these scriptures point to the "day of judgement." I think that there is a misconception that at death God throws all the unbelivers into the fire, no matter what, end of the story, that's all folks. That is NOT true. There is a judgement day scheduled for everyone, and that is where punishments and rewards are meted out. You get your day in court. Evidence is absolute, complete and indisputable. Judgement is utterly fair and just. Even our posts on "exchristian.net will be there to read. (Even my goofy ones.) Posted by: BillJ Mar 11 2004, 05:06 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD) BillJ you are in a burning building. A fireman knocks at your door and tells you to follow him out. He tells you that all escape routes are cut off except one. You start to follow him down the hallway, then realize that he is taking you past the apartment of a neighbor whom you hate. The Bible says that I am going to Hell for eternity for not believing, but yet it doesn't specifically describe hell. Your analogy implies that I know hell exists (burning building) and I am being led away from hell by the firefighter (Bible). The difference is that I do not know that hell exists and I don't believe in the Bible. QUOTE (JimmyDtD) You never like to walk that way. You stop to decide...do I follow him or do I try to figure something else out? He keeps going....you hesitate.....it's your choice.... My beliefs are not a choice. QUOTE Mk. 9:48 where “`their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ [Isaiah 66:24] Job 24:19 As heat and drought snatch away the melted snow, so the grave [Hebrew Sheol] snatches away those who have sinned. Job 24:20 The womb forgets them, the worm feasts on them; evil men are no longer remembered but are broken like a tree. Is. 14:11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. Is. 51:7 “Hear me, you who know what is right, you people who have my law in your hearts: Do not fear the reproach of men or be terrified by their insults. Is. 51:8 For the moth will eat them up like a garment; the worm will devour them like wool. But my righteousness will last for ever, my salvation through all generations.” Ac. 12:21 On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. Ac. 12:22 They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.” Ac. 12:23 Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died. Traditionalists still insist that these passages are talking about a soul that cannot die. Some misquote these verses by saying their worm never dies, when it really says, "their worm does not die." Although traditionalists try to interpret this passage symbolically, it is literal because worms eat bodies. QUOTE Is. 66:24 “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” The Greek word Hades and the Hebrew word Sheol are sometimes translated into the word hell. They do not tell us anything about the final state of nonbelievers, since they only concern the intermediate state of death. Gehenna/Geena is the only word for hell that talks about nonbelievers at judgment. According to basictheology.com, the word gehenna occurs twelve times in the New Testament (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 23:33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6). Gehenna refers to the Valley of Hinnom which is near Jerusalem. This valley was a massive garbage dump with the dead bodies of animals and humans. God calls it the Valley of Slaughter (Jeremiah 7:31-8:3, 19:1-13) The events that happened at the Valley of Hinnom might explain the phrase, "Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." To quench a fire means to put it out before it burns everything up. An unquenchable fire cannot be put out until only ashes remain. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 05:10 PM AggieNostic, there are miracles every day! Miracles have not ended. Miracles, however, are not the norm, and were not the norm in Bible times. Posted by: JimmyDtD Mar 11 2004, 05:18 PM Bruce I can't tell you the answer, because I am totally ignorant about the Borg. I'll give you one back though: After the rebel alliance destroyed the death star, what did they do, go on vacation while the Empire built a second one? Duh, look dudes, they're building another death star. I wonder why they're doing that, since we blew up the first one in the last movie? Posted by: Judyism Mar 11 2004, 05:39 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, 08:10 PM) AggieNostic, there are miracles every day! Miracles have not ended. Miracles, however, are not the norm, and were not the norm in Bible times. Name some that can be attributed to divine intervention. With references, please. And forgive me, but spelling is one of my pet peeves. Judgment has no e after the g. Posted by: KJPee Mar 11 2004, 06:00 PM QUOTE No matter how you slice the cake, if XianGod exists, he is responsible for all evil, in the same way that the priest and the levite were responsible for passing by on the other side of the road. However since it is impossible for XianGod to be responsible for evil, it is also impossible for XianGod to exist. Therefore since evil exists, XianGod does not. Chef: God is responsible for everything, and allows evil to exist here on earth. We don't have to bother about it anymore when we die and either way (believe or don't believe) it makes sense. Now that you don't believe in God, how do you account for those times when things just can't be explained? Those "coincidences" in life that miraculously happen. How do you explain what love is. For what purpose is laughter? Where did all this stuff come from? Do you believe it all happened by chance, by the law of averages? I don't and I never will. Kevin Posted by: BillJ Mar 11 2004, 07:20 PM QUOTE How do you explain what love is. Love is a survival tool - it is so that mother's and father's care for their young. QUOTE For what purpose is laughter? QUOTE Philosopher John Morreall believes that the first human laughter may have begun as a gesture of shared relief at the passing of danger. And since the relaxation that results from a bout of laughter inhibits the biological fight-or-flight response, laughter may indicate trust in one's companions. Many researchers believe that the purpose of laughter is related to making and strengthening human connections. "Laughter occurs when people are comfortable with one another, when they feel open and free. And the more laughter [there is], the more bonding [occurs] within the group," says cultural anthropologist Mahadev Apte. This feedback "loop" of bonding-laughter-more bonding, combined with the common desire not to be singled out from the group, may be another reason why laughter is often contagious. QUOTE Where did all this stuff come from? Do you believe it all happened by chance, by the law of averages? This is the same belief you hold to your God. If you are going to apply those questions to the universe you cannot stop there. Posted by: Fweethawt Mar 11 2004, 07:25 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Mar 11 2004, |