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| Posted by: mshehap30 Dec 20 2004, 08:04 AM |
| [COLOR=blue]In Islam there is absolutely no difference between men and women as far as their relationship to Allah is concerned, as both are promised the same reward for good conduct and the same punishment for evil conduct. The Qur'an says: "And for women are rights over men similar to those of men over women." (2:226) The Qur'an, in addressing the believers, often uses the expression,'believing men and women' to emphasize the equality of men and women in regard to their respective duties, rights, virtues and merits. It says: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward." (33:35) This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life. The Qur'an says that women have souls in exactly the same way as men and will enter Paradise if they do good: "Enter into Paradise, you and your wives, with delight." (43:70). "Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will We quicken to happy life." (16:97) The Qur'an admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women: "O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good." (4:19) Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares: "O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you." (4:1) The Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) said, "Women are the twin halves of men." The Qur'an emphasizes the essential unity of men and women in a most beautiful simile:"They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them." (2:187) Just as a garment hides our nakedness, so do husband and wife, by entering into the relationship of marriage, secure each other's chastity. The garment gives comfort to the body; so does the husband find comfort in his wife's company and she in his. "The garment is the grace, the beauty, the embellishment of the body, so too are wives to their husbands as their husbands are to them." Islam does not consider woman "an instrument of the Devil", but rather the Qur'an calls her "muhsana" - a fortress against Satan because a good woman, by marrying a man, helps him keep to the path of rectitude in his life. It is for this reason that marriage was considered by the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as a most virtuous act. He said: "When a man marries, he has completed one half of his religion." He enjoined matrimony on Muslims by saying: "Marriage is part of my way and whoever keeps away from my way is not from me (i.e. is not my follower)." The Qur'an has given the raison d'être of marriage in the following words: "And among His signs is this, that He has created for you mates from among yourselves, that you may dwell in tranquillity with them; and He has put love and mercy between you. Verily in that are signs for those who reflect." (30:21) The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was full of praise for virtuous and chaste women. He said: "The world and all things in the world are precious but the most precious thing in the world is a virtuous woman." He once told the future khalif, 'Umar: "Shall I not inform you about the best treasure a man can hoard? It is a virtuous wife who pleases him whenever he looks towards her, and who guards herself when he is absent from her." Before the advent of Islam women were often treated worse than animals. The Prophet (PBUH) wanted to put a stop to all cruelties to women. He preached kindness towards them. He told the Muslims: "Fear Allah in respect of women." And: "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." And: "A Muslim must not hate his wife, and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, let him be pleased with one that is good." And:"The more civil and kind a Muslim is to his wife, the more perfect in faith he is." The Prophet (PBUH) was most emphatic in enjoining upon Muslims to be kind to their women when he delivered his famous khutba (sermon) on the Mount of Mercy at Arafat in the presence of one hundred and twenty-four thousand of his Companions who had gathered there for the Hajj al-Wada (Farewell Pilgrimage). In it he ordered those present, and through them all those Muslims who were to come later, to be respectful and kind towards women. He said: "Fear Allah regarding women. Verily you have married them with the trust of Allah, and made their bodies lawful with the word of Allah. You have got (rights) over them, and they have got (rights) over you in respect of their food and clothing according to your means." In Islam a woman is a completely independent personality. She can make any contract or bequest in her own name. She is entitled to inherit in her position as mother, as wife, as sister and as daughter. She has perfect liberty to choose her husband. The pagan society of pre-Islamic Arabia had an irrational prejudice against their female children whom they used to bury alive. The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) was totally opposed to this practice. He showed them that supporting their female children would act as a screen for them against the fire of Hell. It is narrated by the Prophet's wife, 'A'isha, that a woman entered her house with two of her daughters. She asked for charity but 'A'isha could not find anything except a date, which was given to her. The woman divided it between her two daughters and did not eat any herself. Then she got up and left. When the Prophet (PBUH) came to the house, 'A'isha told him about what had happened and he declared that when the woman was brought to account (on the Day of Judgment) about her two daughters they would act as a screen for her from the fires of Hell. The worst calamity for a woman is when her husband passes away and, as a widow, the responsibility of maintaining the children falls upon her. In the Eastern World, where a woman does not always go out to earn her living, the problems of widowhood are indescribable. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) upheld the cause of widows. Most of his wives were widows. In an age when widows were rarely permitted to remarry, the Prophet encouraged his followers to marry them. He was always ready to help widows and exhorted his followers to do the same. Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet said: "One who makes efforts (to help) the widow or a poor person is like a mujahid (warrior) in the path of Allah, or like one who stands up for prayers in the night and fasts in the day." Woman as mother commands great respect in Islam. The Noble Qur'an speaks of the rights of the mother in a number of verses. It enjoins Muslims to show respect to their mothers and serve them well even if they are still unbelievers. The Prophet states emphatically that the rights of the mother are paramount. Abu Hurairah reported that a man came to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) and asked: "O Messenger of Allah, who is the person who has the greatest right on me with regards to kindness and attention?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your mother." "Then who?" He replied, "Your father." In another tradition, the Prophet advised a believer not to join the war against the Quraish in defense of Islam, but to look after his mother, saying that his service to his mother would be a cause of his salvation saying, "Then remain in your mother's service, because Paradise is under her feet." The Shari'ah regards women as the spiritual and intellectual equals of men. The main distinction it makes between them is in the physical realm based on the equitable principle of fair division of labor. It allots the more strenuous work to the man and makes him responsible for the maintenance of the family. It allots the work of managing the home and the upbringing and training of children to the woman, work which has the greatest importance in the task of building a healthy and prosperous society. It is a fact, however, that sound administration within the domestic field is impossible without a unified policy. For this reason the Shari'ah requires a man, as head of the family, to consult with his family and then to have the final say in decisions concerning it. In doing so he must not abuse his prerogative to cause any injury to his wife. Any transgression of this principle involves for him the risk of losing the favor of Allah, because his wife is not his subordinate but she is, to use the words of the Prophet (PBUH), 'the queen of her house', and this is the position a true believer is expected to give his wife. In contrast to these enlightened teachings of Islam in respect of women, Western talk of women's liberation or emancipation is actually a disguised form of exploitation of her body, deprivation of her honor, and degradation of her soul! * Director of the Center for Islamic Legal Studies, Ahmadu Bello University, Zaira, Nigeria[/b][/B][/B] |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 20 2004, 08:19 AM |
| Welcome mshehap30. You are welcome to join our site, but I'd like to give you some advice that will help you enjoy your stay. 1. This is a site for ex-christians. We welcome all viewpoints, but topics are generally related to leaving christianity. If you would like to discuss why you left christianity, you are more than welcome to do so. If you're just here to push your own religion, then you probably should find another site. 2. PLEASE DON'T SHOUT AT US. Following common web etiquette is useful if you want people to read what you have to say. Using large, bold letters detracts from your point and equates to shouting. People are less likely to listen when you scream. |
| Posted by: Anomalie Dec 20 2004, 09:31 AM |
| I have heard some of this before and I dont think it is true. Why are men allowed to have many wives and women allowed only one husband? I have heard also that under some circumstances it is permissible to hit your wife? Why are women forced to cover their bodies but men are not? "This clearly contradicts the assertion of the Christian Fathers that women do not possess souls and that they will exist as sexless beings in the next life" Where on earth did you get that from? I have never heard anything like that anywhere in church. This is a forum for people recovering from leaving one religion and not trying to find another. Most people, including myself, do not take kindly to proselytising regardless of the source. The whole point of your post is to say "Islam is better then Christianity so join us". Unless you have something meaningful to say apart from pushing your own religious cause down people throats, I (and several others) would prefer if you did not post. Most of us have had enough of that for one lifetime. |
| Posted by: Totallyatpeace Dec 20 2004, 09:32 AM |
| I can't resist........ Quotes from the "Holy" Quran on Women Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate). So go to your tilth as ye will... Here you can clearly see how highly Islam treats women. Women in Islam are referred to as fields that are to be cultivated by man. What an honour for a Muslim woman! Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other.. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves , let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies... Here we see, that a husband can easily accuse his wife (or wives) and eventually sentence her to death by merely declaring four times that the accusation is true. On the other hand, women have no such right in Islam. Quotes from Hadith TIRMZI AND OTHERS If a woman's conduct is mischievous or immodest, the husband has the right to beat her up but must not break her bones. She must not allow anybody to enter the house if her husband does not like him. She has the right to expect sustenance of her husband. It is forbidden for a woman to be seen by any man except her husband when she is made up or well-dressed. A woman is not a believer if she undertakes a journey which may last three days or longer, unless she is accompanied by her husband, son, father A woman must veil herself even in the presence of her husband's father, brother and other male relations. She is forbidden to spend any money without the permission of her husband, and it includes giving food to the needy or feast to friends. Women who are ungrateful to their men are the denizens of hell; it is an act of ingratitude for a woman to say: "I have never seen any good from you." **edited due to length From my humble Christian prespective....... Woman is the rib that guards and protects the man's heart. |
| Posted by: luck mermaid Dec 20 2004, 10:07 AM | ||
I'm not sure about that. But during Muhammed's lifetime, there was a war and alot of men were killed. This left alot of widowed women. Some Muslims think that this was written in the Qu'ran SPECIFIC to that time period - meaning if you're a man you'd better marry some widows because they need you to bring in the bacon. To them it no longer applies and they are NOT allowed to marry more than one woman. Also , unlike traditional Mormonism you have to be able to SUPPORT all your wives and treat them equally well. So no trailer parks unless they're in Beverly Hills - of course this is all in theory and like many Christians Muslims do not live up to the decent aspects of what is preached in the 'good book'. Some Muslims think that what is written in the book applies FOREVER. So if somewhere it says in the Qu'ran 'gather in your horses to prepare for war', it's not a reference to the fact that they needed to gather in their horses 1,500 years ago. It means you'd better own some horses and you'd better have those babies GATHERED for impending war! |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 20 2004, 11:47 AM |
| mshehap30, I hope you are here for more than just spaming purposes like this post. Certainly this sort of non-sense is not going to move anybody here to appreciate Islam, when we know how women are treated in many Muslim lands. That is not to say that Chrstians are your superiors in this regard, having been by and large regulated out of owning women by secular governments. It would be nice to have you here for your prospective on things, even if you may be a fundy bastard yourself. chef. |
| Posted by: Slayer-2004 Dec 20 2004, 12:28 PM |
| Totallyatpeace you should know better then that . Since the quran is true then obviously those quotes you have provided are taken out of context and/or are being misinterpreted by the reader . Stop rebelling against the will of allah with your christianity and convert to islam ! ( Free virgins ! ) |
| Posted by: Totallyatpeace Dec 20 2004, 01:20 PM | ||
I saw that coming even as I posted it.  |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Dec 20 2004, 03:00 PM | ||
Pot said to kettle... |
| Posted by: Slayer-2004 Dec 20 2004, 03:21 PM | ||
http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_08_29_archive.php |
| Posted by: Totallyatpeace Dec 20 2004, 04:09 PM |
Not at all. It's your house.  |
| Posted by: Ro-bear Dec 20 2004, 04:20 PM | ||||
It's hard not to covet one's neighbor's ass when his ass is superior to one's own ass. Not that I have that problem; I'm jus' sayin'. |
| Posted by: Lokmer Dec 20 2004, 04:51 PM | ||
The Christian Fathers he's refering to are Justin Martyr and Tertullian, if memory serves, though Augustine, Origen, Irenaeus, and a few others got in on the action. And he is correct on the doctrine. Early Christianity was not a good time to be a woman. -Lokmer |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 20 2004, 05:25 PM | ||||
Just the fact that we're talking about The Christian Fathers speaks volumes about the status of women in the early church. |
| Posted by: Challenger1 Dec 20 2004, 07:24 PM | ||
As well as yours  |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Dec 20 2004, 07:41 PM | ||
FANCY BIG FAT TEXT DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. NEITHER DOES YOUR BELIEF IN IT. I'm trying to figure out if your name is a misspelling of 'mishap' or an abbreviation for 'my shit heap'. |
| Posted by: nivek Dec 20 2004, 08:01 PM |
| Why is it, if allah the bumifical and magnificallent is such a good Team Leader, and all his jackasses, err, mulahs are such good men, that there is a continual stream of folks leaving the muslim world and streaming to Freedom here in the Americas? I don't see many "Cat Stevens" sorts headed to the Big Muslim PX after they've taken allah's words to heart. Nahh, they want to live where life is a hellova lot better than the shit_hole pest_infected, no_rights, and backwards_societies are... Tell me what *modern fundy_mohammedism* has done for world but intro the AkM and RPG to the forefront of its evangelizations.... I have several Ballistics Parties planned for any of the good mohemmedans who come a'knockin'.... n, Freeman |
| Posted by: Karl Dec 20 2004, 09:38 PM | ||||||||||||||||||||
| "mshehap30": Thank you for stopping by this site, and for expressing your opinions. As others have said, there is no need for a large bold font for an entire post. We are ex-Christians, and there are many differing views here: atheists, Pagans, agnostics, Christians, Unversists, Deists and others. We also have one Muslim member, Mosa, but he does not post frequently. Mosa's profile can be read here: http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showuser=250 We stand for the right of every person to believe whatever they want to and practice whatever religion they want to in peace, without persecution or...to practice no religion at all if that is what they choose. We do not proselytize, and we find the practice of forcing people to adhere to religious views that they do not subscribe to, as by societal law, to be totally reprehensible. We also find exclusionist claims ("we have the only "true religion"" etc., to be ludicrous, especially in light of textual errancy and incongruity in both the bible and the Qur'an) I will be citing verses from the 'The Holy Qur'an' - Translation and Commentary by A. Yusuf Ali, hard-cover/dual-text, from Saudi Arabia. There are lots of people who believe in a Universal Higher Power/Intelligence that are not Muslims, Christians or Hebrews. My take is that religion (an external process consisting of tradition, dogma, observances, Esoteric texts, etc.) is only an external framework in which Spirituality (an Internal Process) is supposed to Operate. A person's religion can be whatever they want to be. What is important is the Divine within, and not an endless cacophony of memorizations, rules and home-made "commandments". One of my favorite books is by Sufi Mystic and Master Hazrat Inayat Khan (every Muslim should read his books). Khan goes into the origins of the name Allah with this:
The ancient Hebrews emerged from the Pagan Canaanite population,
where EL was the chief Deity of the Pagan Canaanite Pantheon. The ancient Hebrews retained the name of the Pagan Canaanite Deity EL in some of their Mythical writings (EL Shaddai, EL Elyon, ELohim, ImManuEL, etc.). In other words, its origins are..PAGAN.
The Qur'an doesn't appear to have a very high opinion of Pagans, even though the names Allah and its preceding Hebrew root EL have their origin in.....Paganism. Intolerance of other religious systems is very much in evidence in Saudi Arabia, and Islam in general. Perhaps you would care to offer an explanation for such hypocrisy. My focus in examining the Qur'an and Islam is on consistency, as it is with Christian claims of "inerrancy". For a list of self-contradiction/incongruity in the Qur'an, one can visit: http://www.answeringislam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html The above is a Christian site, which is amusing, since the bible also contains much incongruity, self-contradiction and historical impossibility. Of course, imperfect books can not be the "word" of a "perfect" God. Islam also claims the Myths of the biblical OT and NT "Jesus". Where are "Moses" and "Abraham"?
"Jesus" is also a Myth. There is no extra-biblical historical evidence whatsoever for a god-man named "Jesus", or his alleged "genealogy" (including "Mary"), which means that references to "Jesus" in the Qur'an are also erroneous. There were numerous "Jesuses" operating at that period, any one of which could have been the model for the biblical NT pseudepigraphic constructs. The Noah's ark story is also physically impossible, and is nothing more than a Myth.
You speak of women's rights under Islam. In Saudi Arabia, women are not permitted to drive automobiles as fas as I know. In Afghanistan, women were not permitted to hold jobs and were not being educated. The abyssmal treatment of women in Afghanistan by the Taliban and similarly by the MMA in NW Pakistan (where women's faces are even scratched out on billboards by the religionist lunatics) further demonstrates the repressive nature and hypocrisy of Islamic fundamentalism. Women are forced to wear head scarves or burqas, in direct contradiction of this:
So just what does Sura 2:256 mean to Muslims? Apparently nothing, as it appears that the prelates pretty much make up their own "commandments". And maybe I was just imagining things when I saw CNN footage of women in burqas being beaten by the beasts known as the Taliban...
Believe it or not (!), there are people in the world who live a naked lifestyle. You can learn more about what it means to be truly free of wretched legalistic fundamentalist bondage here: http://www.enature.net/athome.htm and here:http://www.naturism.co.nz/. There are also numerous violent conflicts even between the Shiite and Sunni sects in Islam. And are we to assume that suicide bombings and other horrific murders and acts of hate and violence are the works of "Godly" men? Those are difficult to understand when looking at this:
In light of this verse, the hate, violence, brutality, discrimination, repression and persecution of non-Muslims by Islam and its associated govenments are indicative of only one thing...abject hypocrisy. It looks like with all of the hate in Islam, and the hate and fear-mongering that is taught in some of the radicalized madrasas, that not a whole lot of people are actually "purified", as per the text. In other words, people talk about how Islam is a religion of Peace, but instead we see what I mentioned above. Talk and spewing "scripture" is mighty cheap, isn't it? Fundamentalism is a societal cancer which destroys humanity. The radical fundamentalist extremist (of ANY persuasion), in his abject ignorance, has no concept of the deeper Esoteric Truths and instead is content to live in the abyssmal bondage of legalistic medieval superstition and barbarism, turning whole societies and nations into a nightmarish existence of fear, conflicts, misery and stagnation. "Hell" is the total absence of love, nothing more. Muslims have the same problems Christians have. If "Gabriel" were to deliver the "word of God", would it not be to ALL the people on earth? Could there not have been others in the western hemisphere chosen as prophets to have the same text "revealed" to them in their own languages? Would not all people in the world have had the same books when they finally discovered each other? Shouldn't it have been very easy for "Gabriel" or other members of the supposedly numerous "angelic heavenly host" to pop in anywhere in the world and deliver the "word", especially considering the near physical impossibility of ancients in crossing the vast oceans, etc.? First you have Judaism, when the first 1,000 years of biblical history as stated in the pentateuch and beyond has no emprical foundation whatsoever, then you have Christianity supposedly replacing that with unsupportable NT pseudepigraphy and absurd literalizations of Pagan Esotericism, and then one has Islam, supposedly replacing both of them, and citing the same historically and archaeologically unsupportable literalized Myths and texts. It doesn't make sense. I'll definitely pass on both Islam and Christianity, thank you. The Pagan position is based in Nature. The Pagan rede will suffice for me: "Do what thou wilt and harm none". Love, Light and Life. The Pagan has no other law than this.
Neither can I. It is suggested that one first give a valid apology for one's own "only true way" exclusionist dogma, before pouncing on somebody else's "only true way" exclusionist dogma.... K |
| Posted by: Ro-bear Dec 21 2004, 01:52 PM | ||||
Surely, Karl, you don't expect the Christians hereabouts to play defense only. What fun would that be? In reference to an earlier post, I saw my neighbor this morning as I left for work, and I'm pretty sure he was coveting my ass or something else that is his neighbor's. Should I smite him? |
| Posted by: mshehap30 Jan 1 2005, 10:01 AM | ||
Peace on who follow the right path I thnak all those who have read my post ,, and i thank who have repled to it ,, i wish that every body want to reply to it ,, please stick to facts only and donot give twited or cut facts ,,, not compted fact is a type of lie too , here is one of examples of those who say one part of the fact and leave the other part so it apears ina very bad way sure this is very very wrong and i will just complete the part of traslted meaing of Quran he qauted and you will see the great differnce ""And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth. (An-Nur 24:6) And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her). (An-Nur 24:7) But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie. (An-Nur 24:8) And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth. (An-Nur 24:9) """" i think every thing is clear now it is equal ,, his word agaist her word and if she is pure ,, she could siomple swear it and if he is liar ,, sure punishemt of God is great great --- and any wife and husband do that ,,, they are divorced ,, no marriage again between them at all and the woman who sweared that she is pure ,, no one can call her any bad thing and if any one call her any bad thing ,, he is subjecting himself to sever pusnisment like any other Muslim woman """"And those who accuse chaste women, and produce not four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes, and reject their testimony forever, they indeed are the Fâsiqûn (liars, rebellious, disobedient to Allâh). (An-Nur 24:4) """ as Islam put chastity a very high postion and it is a big crime in Islam to accuse the chastity of a pure woman as the harm of such accusal injure not only the woman ,, but also all of her family too Islam protects purity and chastity of the comunity this way. i hope this point become clear now .. i will reply whenever i have any time to as much as i can of the queation been asked to me in this post with all my best wishes for every body that God help us and guide us to His right way to win happiness and ever lasting heaven |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 1 2005, 10:24 AM |
| Mshehap30, Thank you for following web etiquette this time. Would you be willing to honestly answer a few questions? 1. Do you agree that Shari'a law should become the civil law of some or all of the countries in the world? 2. What do you think the punishment should be for atheists and apostates - people who either reject Islam or leave Islam? |
| Posted by: Totallyatpeace Jan 1 2005, 10:33 AM | ||
mshehap30~ I had grounds for my earlier comments. TotallyatPeace= Apostate (of Islam) |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Jan 1 2005, 11:18 AM |
| mshehap30~ I'm Glad you came back. I was beginning to think of you as a drive by shooter. I am well studied in the Christian religion, but I know almost nothing about Islam, though I have read the Koran and Islam for Dummies. I didn't find anything truer than any other religion I've studied. The evil that Islam practices against their women, and the pyschopathic concern about chastity convinces me at this point that Islam doesn't offer a truer religion then Christians, and Christians don't offer a true religion. It would be nice if you could give your testimony. Are you a Muslim from birth, or did you convert from something else? chef |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 16 2005, 09:34 AM | ||
Mshehap30 - are you not willing to answer these questions? |
| Posted by: Madame M Jan 16 2005, 10:23 AM | ||
Mehshap, I'm curious. What happens to women who are raped but can not prove the rape? What about men? Are Muslims as concerned about the chastity of men as they are of women? If no, why not? If yes, then how does one prove a man's "chastity"? |