| QUOTE |
| Also, what if we're ALL wrong? What if the only people that got it right was some tiny tribe in Europe that was exterminated long ago, and whose beliefs were completely forgotten? |
LOL!!!!! I like it
| Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format |
| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Why reject Jesus? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:06 AM |
| As I read the various anti-testimonies and other writings on this site I am struck by an interesting notion. All of these "ex-" Christians seem to be rebelling against this church, or that church, this Bible version or that Bible version, this theologian or that theologian. Some complain that people were unfriendly or down right mean, some people complain about being oppressed or betrayed. But as I read my Bible I find that it teaches about Jesus Christ, about the love of Christ for the world. The fact that he died for this world and that people just have to believe. I read about Jesus Christ being eternal life. So my question is this. To all of you "ex-" Christians out there, what did Jesus Christ ever do to you? When did he turn his back on you? When did he take back his gift of eternal life? When did he lie or betray you? Do you expect me to believe you like everyone you work with? That you support every policy your company enforces. Do you forsake your family because you can't get along with certain family members? For all of the criticisms that you have for all of these Christians, are you not guilty of the same. If anything, as bad as these Christians maybe at times, at least they never betrayed the one who loved and died for them as you have by declaring yourself an "ex-" Christian. So I ask, openly and honestly, what hateful, despiteful, betraying act did Jesus Christ do to cause any of you to reject him? |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 09:13 AM |
| Good questions, I guess. I just don't really see all this rebellion here, against the church or Bible versions or theologians or mean people that you speak of. Most people, myself included, just reevaluated the faith that we possessed and found it wanting. There was nothing to it. The Bible, after reevaluation, was just another book of ancient legends, and fell far short of appearing to have divine origins, with its superstitions, contradictions, ignorance, and sometimes downright cruelty. You're right, Jesus didn't do anything to us - but he also didn't do anything for us - he didn't do anything at all. What resentment I have is towards the lies and dishonesty, and towards myself, for living a lie for so many years, and the fear that fundamentalism may do damage to our culture. But that's a whole different topic. |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 09:13 AM |
| Nothing. Jesus did nothing to me. It's the folks who turned him into a god and built a religion on those teachings I have a problem with. You see, I don't think Jesus is God or the son of God. So why exactly should I be worshiping him? |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 09:16 AM |
| You should just delete this post and go back to the DOZENS of threads on this subject. I know you'd like us to fit into what you believe we are. If you really think we fit in the box you describe you haven't read much here at all. If you have read a lot, then you're kinda thick. Either way, keep reading and stop talking until you understand and answer your own question. And yeah I'm a little hostile, you're only the 30th or 40th person to join the site and ask that exact same question. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 09:19 AM | ||
Well, like the former poster, I don't believe that Jesus was/is the Son of God. Jesus may not even have lived, there's very little evidence online or anywhere else. Then there's God and I'm not even sure about that concept. Then there's the Christian church. When one becomes a Christian, you have to take on the Book of Hate too, crappy church services and people who frankly I don't care a lot for plus this nonsense about Eternal Life, I've never believed in that. Why would I want to live forever and ever? I can't see any reason why that would be a good thing. Then there's the fact that Christians have the One True Way which I find utterly repugnant, the existence of the Devil and demons which to me is indicative of an extremely childish mind in action, the montoring of what one watches and who one associates with also ... f*%k that for a game of soldiers. And last but by no means least, this person that I quite frankly couldn't give a stuff about. People have to win my love and trust and some being who may not have lived and if he did, is now most likely crumbling in an unknown grave somewhere, is not someone that can do a lot for me as he's DEAD! Yours, Peyton. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 09:26 AM |
| I reject Jesus for the same reason I reject Osiris, Zeus, Apollo, Allah and a thousand other so called gods. Jesus did nothing to me, because he is a fictional character with no, ZERO, evidence in history. He is a mythical being. I reject Christianity for being a false religion, centered upon a mythological deity and decidedly irrtional. I also do not believe in Santa Claus for the sme reasons; he did nothing to me either, he simply does not exist. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 25 2005, 09:30 AM |
| It is kind of hard to reject somebody you don't believe is real, don't you think? If Jesus was REAL, and was actually zooming me around the universe, answering my questions, I'm sure I'd be more apt to believe in him. If the Bible is true, even Thomas got to see/touch the holes in his hands...why not me? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:30 AM |
| I have read quite a few posts this morning, most of them in the anti-testimonies section, which is why I specifically mention the ranting and raving about dissatisaction with churches, Bible, theologians, etc. In particular, I took time to read Dave's anti-testimony and the numerous comments following it. LloydDobler, I am sorry I have frustrated you, I guess you know you can now ignore this topic as it has been dealt with to your satisfaction. Diogenes, you mentioned that Jesus did nothing to you, but that he also did nothing for you. Outside of salvation, I guess one can choose to dismiss God's working in one's life as coincidence or just random luck. But I have seen in my life and the life of others good changes, positive improvements and new look on life as a result of Jesus Christ. Diogenes as a before becomming and "ex-" Christian, what kind of life did you live? Did you really believe the Bible and Jesus or were you always doubtful and skeptical. I ask this nicely and sincerely. I just have a hard time understanding why so many people would choose a life without Christ after initially having one with him. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:33 AM |
| If one never believed in Jesus Christ, I can see how you would not accept him. If you just don't believe, you just don't believe. Rather, my comments are more focused to people who at one point did believe and placed their faith and trust in Jesus Christ. How can they turn away? |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 09:34 AM | ||
I've also seen it and it ain't pretty. There is a thread called Changes which you might be interested in. The new look is a world weary expression, a heavy weight on the shoulders and a total transformation of personality to one devoid of humour and spontaneity and when you consider that the person in question is doing nothing more than deferring responsibility to the imaginary, that makes it all the more scary. |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 25 2005, 09:34 AM | ||
Do you realize that people in EVERY religion have changed lives and can say their god gave them this? If Jesus is 'the only way' then why are there BILLIONS of other people happily going along in their religions..having changed lives? |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 09:34 AM |
| Love how you write off the numerous explanations above you of the fact that we see Christ as nothing more than legend and myth. But hey! Whatever works towards your final point, right? You know, at one point I believed in Santa Claus, I saw his work on my life, the presents he left me, the good things that happened because I was good all year, and left him cookies. Then I found out the gifts were from my parents and my dad ate the cookies. He wasn't real. That's what happened here, we found out the Jesus is nothing more than a story, possibly based on a real person, but certainly no son of god, or god himself. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 09:38 AM | ||
It's quite simple really. Some people come to the conclusion that putting faith and trust in something they come to understand as being imaginary isn't the best way for them to live their lives. What part of this don't you get? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:38 AM |
| Every other religion of this world demands that you do something for God to appease his wrath. Jesus Christ, says I did it for you, just believe. Santa Claus brought out greed. Jesus Christ brings out love. There is no comparison. |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 09:41 AM | ||||||
Either you have no knowledge of what you speak, or you're a liar. You're on the internet, please research before you make stupid, wrong claims.
No. The BIBLE says Jesus did it for me, I've never actually met the guy, so he's never told me anything. And I refuse to 'just believe' I believe what can be proven to me.
They have one big thing in common. They're both fake. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 09:41 AM | ||
Oh dear, you're not deferring back to the Bad Book again are you? Okay, I need to walk away from this thread now as I can sense circular arguments forming. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 09:42 AM | ||
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Here comes the lecture on real christians vs all those fakers out there. |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 09:42 AM | ||||||||
Ok, that makes sense. We've taken polls and discussed the reasons why people left the faith on this site, and the major reason is simply that christianity is baseless.
Ok, but I see no reason to attribute it to some mystical being living in one's heart. I think it's more likely that a change of one's viewpoint/worldview/attitude/whatever can account for the kinds of changes I saw in myself and others as christians. Certainly nothing supernatural going on.
Valid question. I was pretty zealous, read the Bible through once a year, used to go door-to-door evangelizing when I was first 'saved', been on missions trip, been an elder in a church, led Bible studies, wrote essays on theology for christian newsletter, married a fundamentalist christian lady, prayed and fasted, had a nice little fundy family, went to church, usually tithed, didn't and for the most part, still don't have many of the vices which are taboo in christianity. How did I do?
Same reason someone decides to become a christian. Decides based on the information, experiences, and circumstances one has at their disposal. The decision to convert is likely more emotional, while the decision to deconvert is likely more rational. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 09:43 AM | ||
This is all such bullshit. Buddhism makes no such requirement. Santa -can- bring out greed. That doesn't mean it's all he has in his sack. Jesus -can- bring out love. That doesn't mean it's all he has in his sack. I'm calling shenanigans. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 09:43 AM | ||
"In 1991 an illuminating study was reported. According to a Roper survey, born-again Christians deteriorated in their behavior following conversion. Respondents had gone from only four percent driving while intoxicated before conversion to 12 percent ding so afterward. Illegal drugs were used by only five percent beforehand, but after being born-again, the number rose to nine percent. And illicit sex increased from two percent before conversion to five percent following." - The Fundamentals of Extremism, page 141 |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 09:45 AM |
| Actually reading the Bible is the best cure for believing in it. Also, studying apologetics at a Christian University cemented the facts that the religion is built upon myths, without empirical proof and is replete with deceit. A common thing I heard said to people going to seminary is "What you learn will make you a true believer or an atheist". From what I learned, I could not practice the cognitive dissonance required to believe in something that was obviously not real. It was a difficult path to walk, and I went the puritanistic model of stripping away what was obviously illogical and/or false. When that was all said and done, the only things that remained were general moral guidance which are universal to almost all religions and philosophies. Besides the well documented frauds in early Christianity (see early Church Fathers), the large and irreconcilable contradictions between scientific reality and biblical claims forced me to be truthful. If Yahweh/Jesus are the deity, then the revelation of nature and the revelation of the Bible cannot contradict. The fact that they do is inescapable. Nature is subject to testing and is well, real. The Bible is testable as to its claims about reality, and the truth is the Bible fails. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:46 AM |
| Diogenes, what was the last straw? What finally caused you to leave? |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 25 2005, 09:49 AM |
| If jesus was not so jelous and did not have such an ego, I would probably not reject ALL of the sayings that your holybook claims he said. Heck maybe he was really just a groovy philosoper whos real teachings got snuffed out by all his followers over the centuries. Also Jesus should not ask our families to choose him over us, or to leave us for him. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 09:50 AM | ||||
This should say:
Belief is a powerful thing, nobody here will deny that at all. Many of us did a lot of radical things and made very tough decisions based on our belief. In the end, though, all you have is a bunch of people fixing their problems by themselves, and then giving credit to their imaginary friend. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 09:51 AM |
| All of you... What makes you so sure that you're right? What evidence do you have the Jesus did not die to save people's souls? And what if you're wrong? For I know we have all be wrong at some point before. If all of you are right, I will die just the same as you and it is over. But, if the Bible is true, then our final destinations could be quite different. |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 09:52 AM | ||
Your first post here was the last straw. Just kidding... An important change in my life occurred, which caused me to look to my faith for an answer. I literally read the book of Job through four times, and came to the realization that, like Jung said, God is morally inferior to Job. The answer in Job is 'I'm bigger than you, so don't question it. So much for the loving, sacrificial god. After that came the consideration that the universe is so complex and majestic, that no ancient middle eastern tribal deity created it, much less some ancient prophet 'godman'. Then all the contradictions and silliness of the bible fables. Everything else just followed. Ever seen dominoes fall? Just like that. |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 25 2005, 09:53 AM | ||
Sigh.... What makes you so sure that Luke Skywalker isn't the creator of the universe? Is it because there isn't any evidence? Same answer I give to how I know I'm right (or am 99.9999% sure anyway). |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 09:53 AM | ||
Hooray for Pascal's wager! You didn't read one single thing on this site other than some testimonies did you? You're a friggin walking christian cliche. Your statement applies equally to Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, Hinduism, Roman/Greek gods, etc etc etc. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 09:54 AM | ||||
None, because you cannot prove a negative. If you are claiming a positive, it's your responsibility to prove that Jesus DID live and do all that the Bible said he did.
What if Mormonism is the "one right religion"? What if Islam is? Then we're all screwed. You can never be 100% safe, so you might as well be intellectually honest with yourself. I take comfort in knowing that my god would never punish anyone or send anyone to hell for not believing in him/her, because looking at the way the universe is set up, eternal punishment just doesn't make any sense. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 09:55 AM | ||
And that just about sums it all up for me. An excellent sentence LloydDobler. |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 09:56 AM | ||
HAHAHAH! I'd take you down on Pascal's Wager there, but I'm sure someone either already has, or is about to. And I could be wrong, I always keep that possibility close in mind, I could be wrong about anything, as could you, you simply have to try to do the best with the knowledge you have. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 09:56 AM | ||
For the same reason I know there are no circular squares or that there are no square circles. The Yahweh/Jesus deity is illogical and hence cannot exist. Your question is an informal restatement of "Pascal's Wager". Let's restate it for you. What if the 1.2 billion Muslims are correct and Atheists, Christians, Jews, Deists, Hindus, etc. will all end up iin hell? //Bruce// |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:00 AM |
| Also, what if we're ALL wrong? What if the only people that got it right was some tiny tribe in Europe that was exterminated long ago, and whose beliefs were completely forgotten? What if the ancient Egyptians were right? What if the Greeks were right? Can you PROVE that Zeus doesn't live on Mount Olympus? |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 10:00 AM | ||
Snooze ya lose! ROFL. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 10:01 AM | ||
LOL!!!!! I like it |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:01 AM | ||||
I'm also quite lazy. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:01 AM | ||||
Thank you very much. ^_^ |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 10:03 AM | ||||||||||||
We have our various reasons on this site. It should be of no sunrise because people are diverse. Who are you to say that any reason given is not valid for rejecting Christianity? What makes you the final arbiter over the validity of what a person decides? Please tell me.
That would be great if in fact Jesus could turn his back on me. But he didn't. In fact, there is a great reason to believe that he never existed, but that's another debate for another day. If in fact, Jesus gives me this gift of eternal life – as you say, why in the hell does he want anything in return? My gifts have no requirements and no traps. Ask yourself, why are the gifts I give truly free, but Jesus', in return requires you to believe in him and uphold justify such ugly concepts as slavery within that same bible of yours? Jesus had no problem with slavery, just don't beat your slaves to death. Jesus, the slave holder.
Good point. I can always quit. I can make a decision. Like your religion, I resigned.
Your analogy breaks down, companies are not beholden as the absolute work and words of God.
Absolutely nothing. There are enough grounds rooted in reason to reject your Christ.
You are correct. Santa Claus is real then. And... the Easter Bunny brings out sexual relationships outside of marriage. Ain't that right? Oh my. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:03 AM |
| I have never heard of "Pascal's Wager" before, nor am I trying some sort of circular reasoning. All of you seem to have such heart felt convictions, that I am curious as to whether those convictions are mere personal opinion or are they based on something of substance, some sort of evidence. We can discuss what is valid or invalid evidence, but that is all together a different topic. I am just curious what you are basing you convictions on when say "my god this..." or "my god that...". Obviously my objective evidence is the Bible. I know all of you reject that as valid evidence, but what do you hold up as evidence? |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 10:04 AM | ||
The Cathars!!! |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 10:05 AM | ||
Right. That's the point. There is no evidence. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:07 AM | ||
You obviously have not comprhended what you read. For me, I accept objectively verified reality. Nature and the Bible are in conflict, nature is real, the biblical claims have not proven to be so. Secondly, the Judeo-Christian deity is impossible to exist for logical reasons. Thirdly, the documented history of Christianity and Christian doctrine speak conclusively to its position as a man-made mythology. Fourthly, the Bible and Christians make positive claims that have never been proven. No one should ever accept anything upon faith, without objective, verifiable proof of said claims, especially when strong evidence exists to the contrary. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:09 AM |
| I fully understand that all of your reject Jesus and the Bible. But, in the hearts of anyone out there... Do you desire to know God? |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:10 AM | ||
You REALLY just don't get it do you? |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 25 2005, 10:10 AM |
| He just don't do it for me |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:11 AM |
| Bruce.... So what does you evidence lead you to believe? Do you believe anything? |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 10:11 AM | ||
Well, objective proof might be a good thing for starters. Like perhaps, 'God' appearing in some measurable way except through your religious version of Aesop's fables. This is however a pointless exercise as no such proof will manifest. I view your God figure the way I view any fictional character in a book. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:11 AM | ||
Most of are ExChristians. I wanted to not only know God but to serve him the best that I could. Fortunately, like Dorthy in the Wizard of Oz, I found out that is was really only men behind the curtain. The Judeo-Christian deity only exists as an imaginary being. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 10:12 AM | ||
God who? Who are you talking about? If we reject the bible .....  |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:12 AM |
| Peyton, instead of downing what I believe, tell us what you believe. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:12 AM | ||
This seems to obviously be directed at me, as no one else in this thread has mentioned belief in a deity. Okay, then... my evidence is nature. I learn about the way the universe works and I see such astounding beauty that all I can think is, "This is sacred. This is all a miracle." Now, when I say "god," I don't mean specifically one god or two or three or none. I mean, the thing I see all around me that's sacred and mystical. Maybe god IS its own creation, a la pantheism. Who cares? Does it matter? To go any more in-depth than that would be to come to conclusions based on no evidence but my own hopefulness. I do not know what is, but I do know what isn't. The Judeo-Christian god Yahweh is internally inconsistent, so it cannot exist as the Bible says. (As someone else argued in this same thread.) I feel no reason to name it, but when I'm talking to Christians, it usually makes them feel better if I call it "god," as in, one god. So there you go. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:13 AM |
| SmallStone, what do you believe? Folks its easy to rip apart others beliefs. Why not take a stand on your own. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 10:14 AM | ||
I believe in Life. Life before Death. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:14 AM | ||
Yes. That is why I checked out Christianity in the first place. I looked around, found no god in that religion, and decided to search elsewhere. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:15 AM |
| anony~mouse, how did nature come to be? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 10:16 AM | ||
Hey, are you saying that you know God? |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 25 2005, 10:16 AM | ||
What god should we "desire" to choose, Your god? Someone elses god? The gods of the mayan or sumerian cultures? What makes your god so speicial that we have to believ in it? What proof do you have of your god? How can believing in some great powerful thing benifit me? What can god do that I can not do for my self? |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:17 AM | ||||
And if you are, can you get us his autograph? |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:17 AM | ||
I accept reality, that is objectively verifiable. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I do recognize when supposed answers are fallacious. Using logic and science, one can rule out many religious claims. Belief is a loaded term Wired and I do not like using it. I do not believe in gravity or evolution for instance; I accept both because they are objectively observed and can be used for predictive purposes an hence can be considered real. A maxim I hold to is "No unreal thing exists". //Bruce// |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 10:17 AM | ||
I believe that you are in waaaay over your head. I believe that you've made such ridiculous statements in this thread that I'm precluded from taking you seriously as a rational human being. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:18 AM |
| Peyton and the Bible agree on something... Life does come before death. |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 25 2005, 10:18 AM |
| 000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000 |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 10:18 AM | ||
LMAO!!!!! Hey, you can probably get it framed off of eBay for under 10 bucks!  |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:19 AM |
| I predict we will soon hear the "God of the Gaps" argument. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:19 AM |
| SmallStone, what statements have I made that you object to? |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:20 AM | ||||
Those are all fakes. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:20 AM | ||
I have no idea, but probably a god, group of gods, or some kind of divine power that we as humans will never be able to understand. Why are you asking me? I just made it very clear that I am not an atheist. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 10:21 AM |
| wiredoutreach, I think perhaps we need to ask you a question. Other than the fear of death and Hell, what makes you believe in such piffle? |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 10:21 AM | ||
Please, all your questions will be answered if you just spend a couple days reading this forum. We can happily rehash all the stuff but it's all been answered before. You haven't heard it called Pascal's wager, but you just used it to argue your case. It goes like this: If god exists, and I believe, I win. If god exists, and I don't believe, I BURN IN HELL. If god doesn't exist and I believe, it's no loss. If god doesn't exist and I don't believe, it's no loss. The problem however falsely assumes two things: 1) that you lose nothing by believing, and 2) that the god you happen to be debating is the right one. If you pick the wrong god to make this wager about, it becomes: If god A exists, and I believe in god B, I BURN IN HELL. If god A exists, and I don't believe in god A or B, I BURN IN HELL. It's basically a logical fallacy, and not a valid reason to believe in god. It's equivalent to the 'fire insurance' quip often thrown around in christian circles. If you believe in god out of fire insurance you're fooling yourself. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:22 AM |
| Wired, You need to understand that almost everyone here on ExC.net is used to the claims and various apologetics used by believers. Before you go on, it would be wise to understand that the existence of God and the validity of Christianity are two different issues. Muslims believe in God, but discount Christianity as a fairy tale. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 10:22 AM | ||
I've already pointed them out by quoting them and responding to them. Playing dense isn't going to get you anywhere. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:23 AM | ||
Not to mention the fact that the Bible itself says you must TRULY believe with all your heart or you will still go to hell. So believing "just in case" won't work under that belief system. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:23 AM |
| You folks keep trying to predict that I am trying to make one particular argument over another. I just want to know what you believe and what evidence you have to support it. I am beginning to think most you just have a rebellious spirit and its manifesting itself in the form of rejecting Jesus. |
| Posted by: Matthew Feb 25 2005, 10:24 AM |
| Wired, The question you ask is a common one and unfortunately it's predicated on a common assumption that divine betrayal is the root of all apostacy. This is not true and, what's more, it's a stereotype. I can only speak for myself- so here goes. Many apostates such as Robert M Price, Gerd Ludemann, Michael Goulder, Farrell Till and others are not Christians anymore because they studied their way out of the faith. Their skepticism is intellectual. My skepticism is both intellectual and emotional. The reason I reject the Christian faith is because I believe the Bible to be errant and a lack of extraordinary evidence for the resurrection and evidence I believe there to be against it. My emotional skepticism is rooted in the fact that I find it personally impossible to believe that there exists a personal god of love who has interest in me- but that's my business and no one else's. I am open to the possibility that the Christian faith is valid but to come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ has risen but it would be a very painful and grudging conclusion on my part. In fact, I have vowed to take my own life if I ever came to the conclusion that the Christian faith is valid, the Bible inerrant, or Jesus risen. Once again- that's my business. To answer your question- Jesus didn't do anything to me. I don't believe he could have because I don't buy into the truth claims made about him on behalf of the New Testament writers or the Church these days. I suffered under the delusion that I was "saved" and I am freed from a delusion of my own making. Now I have a devotion to freethought, skepticism, and biblical criticism. Matthew |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:26 AM | ||
Believe what you want to believe if it helps you sleep better at night. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 10:27 AM | ||
Shenanigans X 2. |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:27 AM | ||
Remember, when all else fails, claim they're just rebelling. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:28 AM | ||
Wired,
Once you do these, then discussion is possible. Until then, we might as be debating is Darth Vader is really evil. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Matthew Feb 25 2005, 10:28 AM | ||
I have no desire to "know" any deity in the sense of wanting a "personal relationship" with such a being. If I came to conclude the biblical deity existed I would take my own life. I have no interest in heaven, would rather be be brutually slaughtered than spend eternity with the biblical god or many of the assholes I have encountered who are Christians, and I don't see the reason in delaying the inevitability of hell. Matthew |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 10:29 AM | ||
I believe that people are good. I believe that liberal domestic policies and education are best for the citizens of our country when we the people deem it so. I believe that I like a great back scratch. I believe in not drinking and driving. But what, I have decieded not to beleive in is God or any supernatural beings. You have decided to believe in such a fairy tale. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 10:29 AM | ||
Can we talk about Bester from Babylon 5 instead? Babylon 5 was so much cooler than Star Wars. |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 25 2005, 10:31 AM | ||
Jesus has inspired many of those who lead his followers to touch little kids in the pants. I reject the child molestation! LOL..what a stupid question. You make the bold assumtion he ever existed. If I don't follow the teachings of Confucioius, he must have done something hateful to me right? Why don't you follow Mohammed? Did he betray you in some way? Why should you reject him when he's done nothing to you? Idiot |
| Posted by: crazy-tiger Feb 25 2005, 10:32 AM | ||
And God will throw you into hell for being a smartarse... |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 10:35 AM | ||
You are not special, you are not unique, you are not the first christian to visit here. You are following the exact pattern of every other christian who has come in here and just started trying to save us under the FALSE PRETENSE of 'just asking questions'. Every single question/statement you have posted so far in this entire thread has been asked DOZENS of times in almost the exact same order, with the exact same intent. Some of us even did it during our faithful days. Like I said, you're a walking cliche, who still refuses to take sage advice and go read, choosing instead to talk rather than learn. We aren't trying to predict anything, you're fitting the pattern exactly as you are taught to. And you are quite unprepared for the argument you're starting. |
| Posted by: Ian Feb 25 2005, 10:36 AM |
| I believe believing in Jesus is as valid as believing in Buddha or Siddharta or Odin . I just don`t believe any of them exists. Sorry I believe I am hungry so I am gonna get a sandwich... |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 10:40 AM | ||
I have faith that the sandwich will heal your hunger. ALL HAIL THE GREAT SANDWICH OF IAN. |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 25 2005, 10:45 AM | ||||
why are you rejecting Dinty Moore in favor of sandwhiches? Did Dinty Moore do something hateful to you? Did it give you the runs? Did Dinty Moore give you Montezuma's Revenge? |
| Posted by: Matthew Feb 25 2005, 10:46 AM |
| Fellas, please.... Let's not crowd upon or gang up on 'Wiredoutreach'. Let this fellow respond to each of our posts where we ask a pertinent question or raise a good point. I am amazed that this thread has grown this many posts but I don't want our guest to feel overwhelmed and ganged up on and feel no room to answer or even breathe. Matthew |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:47 AM |
| If I am following any typical pattern it is not intentional nor have I been taught to ask certain questions. I know I have not been the first Christian here... But since you keep referring to all of these Christians. Have you ever converted one over to your way of thinking through this forum? I mean a Christian who came here "ask questions" and in the end they joined your side? |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 25 2005, 10:48 AM | ||
Depends on how brainwashed they are really. |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 10:52 AM | ||
We don't try to 'convert' or 'deconvert'. People come to whatever conclussions they please based on the information they get. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:53 AM | ||
Bad analogy Wired. We have no religion to convert people into. We are an association of people who have a commonality. That commonality is that we were once practicing Christians of one degree or another. Some were deep in the religion as pastors, leaders, seminarians, etc. and some were just deeply believing lay persons. There have been professing Christians who have came here and have since deconverted. These however are typically those that were beginning to question the religious claims of Christianity to begin with. ExChristian.net was founded to help people who have walked away from Christianity, particularly in the USA, because our culture is heavily saturated with Christianism. There are very few places or organizations for ExChristians to find support, while there are more churches in the USA by population than any other country in the world. These churches are by and large highly evangelical, missionary and seem to want to force their beliefs on others using the public arena and monies. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:56 AM |
| Has anyone from this group of ExChristians come back to Christianity? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 10:58 AM |
| Clergicide, who does the brainwashing? Do you have personal experience? |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 10:59 AM |
| A very few ExChristians have reconverted. In my four years here, they have been those that left Christianity for emotional reasons or where the emotional needs were paramount over the intellectual reasons. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 25 2005, 10:59 AM | ||||
You can read our testimonies and find that out. You seem to have a herd-mentality..does it really matter to you what 'other' people have done? What is it you are interested in doing?
Would you like a definition? I would say anyone that accepts something as truth without first verifying the authenticity, or the origin of it is effectively submitting themselves to brainwashing. What do you think of when you look at other faiths? Do you assume they are being led to belive something that is false? Wouldn't you call that brainwashing? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:06 AM |
| My interest here today is to meet people who have left the faith and find out why. I had read many testmonies before starting this topic, but reading testimonies is not interactive. Its difficult to ask questions and get quick responses. So I figured, I would come and ask some people directly. In my course of life I have not met anyone who outright rejected Jesus after believing. I have met people who never accepted and never believed. So I figured if I wanted to come find out why people left, I should start a topic. An instead of focusing on church, Bible versions, theologians, other Christians. I would just start at the heart of the matter. Why reject Jesus? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:09 AM |
| How many people here would you the term "born-again Christian" to describe themselves at some point in the past? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 11:10 AM | ||
Now you have. I hope you enjoy your time here. Invite some friends too. Cheers! |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 25 2005, 11:11 AM | ||
Why accept he ever existed? Why do you reject Mohammed? These are the questions you should be examining. The second is virtually the same as your own, and illustrates the fallacy of your question. |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 11:15 AM | ||
Okay, okay, I'll continue to play your game for a while. I wanted to believe in God so I joined a church thinking this would give me the answer. I was told that Jesus was God and that all I had to do was put my faith in 'him' and everything would fall into place. It didn't. Every question I asked there on in led to yet more questions forming and no specific answers. I realised I had been duped into believing in something that wasn't real. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 11:19 AM | ||
I allow that people are fallable and will screw up their churches, make the wrong decisions, and treat others badly, even if they claim to "love Jesus." That never put me off. After asking Jesus into my heart at age 26 or so, I spent 12 years confessing my sin, praying to God, studying scripture, memorizing psalms and verses, praying for guidance, deliverance from sin & temptation, asking for comfort, peace, & healing. I witnessed, supported missionaries I met, gave to my church, prayed with/for people, lead worship in bible studies, and more. I found after 12 years that my life was no better in any way than in the years prior to accepting Christ. I never had any tangible guidance from God that wasn't equally attributable to any wise old coot. I had no rescues from debt, pain, suffering, etc. as a result of prayer. I had no benefit that I could discern in my life from being a Christian. The scriptures are full of inspiring stories, but so's contemporary, documented life, (ie. Earnest Shackleton and Lance Armstrong are huge inspirations to me). The worship songs and psalms of David brought me comfort and inspiration, but so does Bruce Springsteen. When it was all said and done, I found no compelling reason to continue any devotion to God and/or Jesus. "Deliverance from Hell" is just not enough since there's no evidence anywhere to support any afterlife. Since quitting Christianity 2 years ago, my life is no better or worse, although I have more time to devote to my kids and myself since we're not in church, which is nice. The reaction I get from some Fundies is always that I must have done something wrong, failed to truly embrace Him, some kind of personal shortcoming of mine, for how else could my "Walk With the Lord" have been so unfulfilling. No, it's unfulfilling because there's no there there. ...and yes, I considered myself "born again." |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:22 AM |
| Peyton, the Bible never claims that everything falls into place because you accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. Getting "saved" only gives you eternal life, it does not solve life's problems. In fact, the Bible is very clear that when you get "saved" that is when the real trouble starts. I am sorry people could not answer your questions. I am sorry if you were promised happiness or prosperity as a result of salvation. |
| Posted by: Pope Ima Mused Feb 25 2005, 11:27 AM |
| Wired, I know YOU believe Christianity is the only way to know God, but there are many here who DO believe in a God or Gods. Christianity is only one of many, many religions. There are people who are happy in every religion - people who experience positive life changes, miraculous healings, "a personal relationship" with the Deity of their choice. Perhaps a Loving Energy exists, but doesn't particularly care what you call it. Or maybe there are lots of "Gods." (If there weren't, why would Yahweh be so jealous?) Then again, perhaps "God" is just a figment of the imagination. . .a coping mechanism to enable people to live with the knowledge that someday they will die. I personally am agnostic, but if a Higher Power exists, I really don't think it is so petty and insecure as to damn me to eternal torment for not believing something there is no evidence of. After all, if God gave me a logical brain, is it wrong for me to use it? Plenty of proof against Christianity can be found in the Bible itself. If you remove the rosy glasses of "faith" and read what it says (rather than what you've been told it really means), the Bible is a VERY ugly book. It is vengeful and bloody, condones and commands barbarous acts, includes talking animals, inaccurate scientific, mathmatical, and historical information, and contradicts itself over and over again. This AWFUL book is the ONLY "evidence" that Jesus ever existed at all. The Bible is a seriously flawed set of documents written by numerous anonymous bronze age sexist pigs. It has WAY too many problems to have been "inspired" by God. Humans made it up, just like every other book out there. Jesus is a mythological figure and his "gift" is not free. Please, don't delude yourself in that respect. "Salvation" from your loving, heavenly father who will torture you eternally for disbelief costs plenty. In order to be "saved" people must believe first that they are repugnant sinners (goodbye self esteem!), that Jesus existed, was a demigod born of a virgin, walked on water, raised the dead, rose FROM the dead, flew off to heaven, etc. (insert whatever impossibility you like - and give up your critical thinking abilities!) Of course, most importantly, you must believe he LOVED you enough to die for YOU. (Hello, guilt, shame, manipulative "love," and fear of ETERNAL punishment.) Now, after you give up your self esteem and critical thinking abilities, you must adopt a whole new set of attitudes and beliefs to fit in with the others. You should hate gays, vote republican, go to church and tithe at least 10% of your income, try not to associate with the "unsaved" except to preach at them, only think what they tell you to think, watch what they tell you to watch, read what they tell you to, listen to what they tell you to, etc. Mind control at its finest. Christianity costs you A LOT. For a long time, raised Christian as many of us here were, I paid the price with a low self esteem, feelings of guilt and unworthiness for causing Jesus to die so horribly for ME, the inability to discern reality from superstitious nonsense, alienation from "the unsaved", etc. Wired, if you really want to know the truth about your religion, stick around and read as much of the site as you can. If you are only here looking for converts, it isn't going to happen. We've been there and done that, and saw it for what it is. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:28 AM |
| One of the problems today in Christianity is people pushing the whole prosperity gospel. Give your life to Jesus and you'll be happy, rich, successful, etc..... The Bible teaches no such thing. Jesus gives us the hope eternal life, salvation from eternal damnation. The prosperity gospel is a false gospel designed to rob millions of people of their hard earned money while giving them a false hope of material success. Jesus is so much more than material success, but that requires faith. I know people can place their faith in the wrong place, but research and experience have led me to believe that Jesus is the way and his Bible is the word of God. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 11:28 AM | ||
But doesn't a "personal relationship with God" suggest that God is actually there and somehow interested in each of us? Prayer answered is God's Mercy Prayer unanswered is God's Mystery because He has some purpose in it. Sure. Real tidy the way there's always an answer for the silence. Christian's don't promise that accepting Christ will make life's problems go away but then how will God demonstrate His glory if he never makes an appearance? What's the point of ceaseless prayer if He never responds? Someone told me, "Ahh, but perhaps The Lord wants you to learn patience." Right. Well, see, God allegedly knows my limits and knows he let me go beyond mine. If He's still interested He knows where to find me. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 11:29 AM | ||
I have stated the reasons for my leaving the faith. Here are my main reasons:
//Bruce// |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 11:29 AM | ||
I must admit, I was never a born-again Christian. I never officially converted or attended church. However, years ago when I went on a spiritual quest, I researched Christianity along with every other religion I could find. I found nothing unique or original in Christianity; nothing to distinguish it from any other religions in that it contained both truth and obvious lies, both that which is admirable and that which is maddeningly offensive. Everything that distinguished these religions from each other was window dressing; the real meat of it was exactly the same. So I decided to stop trying to find some kind of dogma that explained everything and allow for the possibility that some things are just unexplainable. (Or at least haven't been explained yet.) I'm a much more peaceful person because of it. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:35 AM |
| anony~mouse, if you have so much peace. Why spend your time on an ExChristian forum? Go enjoy this life, its all you have! Seriously, go out make the most of it, get off this computer, there is so much to do! But perhaps you quest is not over. Perhaps there is not real peace in your heart. My wife will tells me she is fine, even when she is not. She will deny it for days but then one day she breaks down and pulls down the barriers she has built up and confesses the burdens in her heart. How many people here have built such barriers? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:36 AM |
| ratto, maybe God is seeking you today.... |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 25 2005, 11:37 AM | ||
The body of Christ is the church- ie: the believers. The church overall is disjoined and fighting amongst itself. I do not see consistent change in people. I do not see any of the power that is promised. I do not see any overall unity or consistency of beliefs that would be the case if a supernatural and perfect spirit were residing within and guiding all believers. In fact, alot of Christians spend and inordinate amount of time trying to determine who is "really" saved and why. The Bible says that we will know them by their fruits. I see nothing about the body of Christ which consistently shows me any fruits of it being Jesus on earth. Therefore, by the Bible's own standard I must reject in order to maintain my integrity. I spent 23 straight years in Christianity and recently went back and gave it another shot. If you want to interpret the above as me having a beef with a certian denomination or theology or whatever, that is your perogative. I have spent time in more than one denom and around more than one theology. (**Note: the above was in answer to the first page of this thread. If I read through all the pages before adressing the OP's original issue, I would lose my train of thought.) |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 25 2005, 11:41 AM | ||
You mean like believe, repent, turn from sins.... or fry in hell. Or you mean like tithe, go to church regularly, let your works refect your faith, don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing, exhibit the fruits of the spirit, keeping the sabbath holy, giving all your riches to follow Christ...etc? Of course, is this the same God that spent a huge amount of time dictating all the OT laws that had to be followed perfectly in order for a person to escape His wrath? This God, the one who never changes. Seems like in the beginning He was like all the other "god" you disdain so much. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 11:42 AM | ||
Therapy in recovering from the enormous disappointment in discovering that the God to which I'd devoted so much time and resources is a non-starter? |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 11:42 AM |
| Let the preaching begin........GLORY!!!!! |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:43 AM |
| Madame M, I understand exactly where you are coming from. I battle the same thing in my church. But by what standard do you presume to judge the body of Christ? Your own or the Bible's? Well the Bible says we are all sinners, saved by the grace of God. So what type of body do you expect to find when you have a building full of sinners. Church is far better than a strip club. So if a strip club is the comparison I can see Christ at work in the heart and minds of churchgoers. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 11:44 AM | ||
wiredoutreach gets the FundyPlatitudeBonus. And I'd know God was seeking me because.....? I give up. I spent a long time looking for Him to be seeking me and came up empty. I made myself real accessable too. Now I figure if I lay low something'll happen. Ya think? |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 25 2005, 11:47 AM | ||||
Uh.... duh... *scratches head*.... because I was part of said body, maybe? You are setting up the circular brick wall that christians are good at doing. What you are saying is that I have no right to judge a thing and since I have no right to judge, on what basis do I dare leave it. I say to you, you have no right to judge Hinduism, get your behind into the nearest Hindu temple and just believe. Actually, we are supposed to "know them by their fruits". Therefore, the Bible is saying that we are to observe and come to a judgement.
So if I am not in church, I must be in a strip club? What kind of strawman was that? |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 11:47 AM | ||||||||
"So much time"? I have only 75 or so posts here; I'm a newbie. But as for why I'm here today, there are two reasons for that: 1. My secretarial job offers me way too much time in which to do nothing but play on the computer or browse Internet message boards. 2. The people here are nice, and the discussions thought-provoking.
Easy for you to say; you're not chained to a computer all day with very little to do.
I have no doubt of that; no quest is ever over. However, I seriously doubt that my personal quest will end with Christianity - if it ends at all.
It's quite judgmental of you to make such suggestions. You came and asked why we were not Christians. I answered to the best of my abilities without judging you for your beliefs. Granted, others here have. But I consider it rude to be so disrespectful of others' beliefs that you would suggest that we believe what we believe because we "rebelled against Jesus" or "set up barriers." |
| Posted by: Peyton Feb 25 2005, 11:49 AM | ||||
But life ends at death, there is no such thing as living forever, it is a myth. Just because millions of people believe in something doesn't make it so.
Don't be sorry, I'm glad I'm finally free of the Christ cult. I'm a better person today. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 11:55 AM |
| ratto, you said God could find you if he wanted you. Do you know the chances that I would be on a forum such as thing during the middle of the work day? Out of the blue I decide to get on a forum. This is only the second time I have ever created a forum topic. In fact, at the moment I should be working on a programming project (I am software developer for a living), but instead I am giving up several hours of $$$ to do this. These types of things are not always conincidental... |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 11:56 AM | ||
... confirmation bias in other words. |
| Posted by: Pope Ima Mused Feb 25 2005, 11:56 AM |
| Wired, I was a "Born Again" Christian for 18 years. Eventually, it was my own knowledge of the Bible that caused me to disbelieve it. And as a Born Again, you ought to know that without the Bible, there is NO JESUS. This is NOT a question of a "version" of the Bible, or a "Translation" - it is EVERY BIBLE. IT IS BULLSHIT. Period. I know it is standard practice to sucker people in using emotional appeals - (Jesus loves you! You'll go to HELL if you don't ask him into your heart!) but emotional appeals won't work here. As, I said, we've been suckered once. If you can prove Jesus existed without using the Bible, maybe you'll begin to get somewhere. Then again, once you stun us all by proving Jesus lived at one time, you will have to prove that he wasn't just an ordinary human rabbi who was eventually deified by other humans. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 25 2005, 12:02 PM |
| I have to go for a while. I need to go drive 2 hours. I will check in again tonight to see if there are any new postings. I have enjoyed meeting all you and if we do not get to meet again I wish you all the best. Thanks |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 12:02 PM | ||
There is actually evidence for the former. There WAS a man named Jesus who was executed (via cross, like all other criminals) by the Romans. However, everything else about his life is unverified and mostly speculation. |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 12:03 PM |
| Okay, I've only got to page four of this thread and I have to speak. Wideout, I found your 'do you have resons or just emotional reactions' attitude to be really condescending. Pre-life, post-life, god, deity, devils, angels, saints, heaven, hell -no proof of ANY of it so it's all irrelevant - there are enough good things worth doing here and now, in the things we know are real and provable, to waste time paying insurance premiums on theoretical possibilities. And yes I was a devout Xtian for somewhere between 17 to 20 years, it's hard to pin down the exact leaving date but leave I did and far too late. bdp |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 25 2005, 12:03 PM | ||
Maybe your subconscious doubts of the fairy tale and extraordinary claims of your faith, brought you here to try and break free of the tyranny of false beliefs. Search your mind...the truth can set you free from bronze-age myths and invisible (imaginary) beings. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 25 2005, 12:05 PM | ||
If God loves honest people, then he should love and protect those who believe based on reason, and verifyable facts, and who also keep an open mind to new evidences. Honest folks don't believe in things just because they are threatened with harm by someone. Honest folks believe in things based on the available evidences that is avaiable to them at the time. Only beings of low character threaten folks, in order to get them to do, or believe something. Threats should never be a part of the equation in convincing people of something that is good , and true. Your bible fails the test of what is true and good just based on the threats it makes. No other proof is needed that your bible is a mythology book. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 12:05 PM | ||
Yer kiddin' right? Yer all kindsa facetious with this. Sure you gotta be. What're the chances I come to a discussion forum about faith and after describing my lack of it, someone says they're here to welcome me back into the Body of Christ? On a internationally accessable forum with thousands of participants discussing THAT VERY TOPIC? Yeah, that's a million-to-one-shot, alright. |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 12:06 PM | ||
This is Christianese and means nothing. bdp |
| Posted by: Pope Ima Mused Feb 25 2005, 12:11 PM | ||
We enjoy aiding those who choose to free their minds of the unhealthy teachings of the Christ Cult? We regard the other posters here as friends? We enjoy learning new things? We like to share our experiences with people who understand where we are coming from? There are a lot of reasons I like to come here. Secretly fearing that Christianity is true is NOT one of them. I find your assumption typically arrogant and judgemental. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 12:12 PM | ||
I do not like god, Sam-I-am I do not like green eggs and ham. (not mocking you, complementing the unintended excellence) |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 12:14 PM | ||||
Spirit from the the latin word "to breathe." How'dya know about my bad breath? |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 25 2005, 12:16 PM | ||
Yes, what are the odds that you would find yourself on an ex-christian forum? It confirms to me that you subconsciously want to leave your faith, but can't admit it to yourself. Why else would you choose a forum of people who left Christianity, instead of one where you could find christian fellowship? Fate led you here. Of course, what are the odds that I would be online today. What are the odds that I would be born in a country and at a socioeconomic situation in which I could own a computer and cable internet access. What are the odds that my kids are watching tv and giving me time to browse and respons? What are the odds that my hair turned out blonde. Oh, it is all a mystery. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 12:19 PM |
| I gotta admit we crack me up sometimes. As of right now there are 19 people reading this thread. PIG PILE ON THE CHRISTIAN! NOOGIES TILL YOU SAY UNCLE JESUS! SAY IT! SAY IT! |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 12:20 PM | ||||
LOL! What are the odds we'd all be sitting here playing "armchair psychologist"? What are the odds I'd end up being one of those annoying people who puts quotation marks around everything?  |
| Posted by: Pope Ima Mused Feb 25 2005, 12:30 PM | ||
Yeah, I know A Jesus was executed by the Romans. I should have been more specific: Prove that THE (BIBLICAL) Jesus existed and did the things portrayed therein. I once read a fascinating paper on the internet - I believe it was written by a Jew - who asserted that the teachings of the Biblical Jesus and some of the events in the New Testament were based on the lives and teachings of 4 different men. This was awhile ago, and I don't remember offhand who the author was, so I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure I could find it again if anyone is interested. |
| Posted by: Khan Noonien Singh Feb 25 2005, 12:31 PM | ||
If you could only imagine the little kid who once believed in Santa Claus, but no longer does, I could only hope this helps your understanding. Was there once a time you believed in Santa Claus? |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 12:42 PM | ||
Can we officially set this up as a poll? At least with a strip club I know up front exactly what's going on and nobody is judging me behind my back (for the record I have never ben to a strip club, they don't interest me). bdp |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 12:46 PM | ||||
It IS pretty cool, isn't it? Shame it's the only kind of excellence I'm capable of... bdp |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 12:47 PM |
| You know, the sad thing is in a strip club, you know who's pretending and who's not. You also get what you pay for. The irony of the comparison is that Jesus, if he existed, would actually be in a strip club saving the sinners rather than a church preaching to the pharisees on sunday morning. |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 12:50 PM | ||||
I DIDN'T have a life with him, it was roleplay and wishful thinking. I just chose to stop pretending, that's all. bdp |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 25 2005, 12:50 PM | ||||
I know... I was just being annoying and nit-picky.  I do that sometimes. Don't mind me. |
| Posted by: Godless Wonder Feb 25 2005, 01:02 PM |
| Out of curiousity, what is this extra biblical evidence of a Jesus executed by the Romans? Anything not covered http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/scott_oser/hojfaq.html |
| Posted by: Pope Ima Mused Feb 25 2005, 01:03 PM | ||
When I was a Christian, I thought I had a life with Christ too. It didn't seem strange to me at the time that I thought I had a "relationship" with an invisible mute guy who (if he ever did exist) had been dead for 2000 years. But ultimately, "Life with Christ" wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Christianity is an oppressive, elitist, narrow worldview. Come join reality - the truth will set you free. |
| Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 25 2005, 01:16 PM |
| Yah, some well traveled, pre-Spanish dude named Je-sus was cought nicking a few grapes from the local govener's vineyards. The govener trumped up the charges and had him nailed to a cross. His buddies were not too keen on their friend loosing that macho image so they made up some god story to keep the family honor intact..... Hey....if you belive one Jesus story why not another? |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 01:27 PM | ||||||
Gonna have to go with 1920's movie babe, there. |
| Posted by: GodsPrincess Feb 25 2005, 01:28 PM |
| i think y'all could benefit from a song that changed my life... it's called "wait" and it's by the band zoegirl. here are the lyrics: You've been hurt You've been lied to You ran all your life Just to get out of your shoes But you settled in too soon Now your road is clear Leave dark no room For any light to break through You're on a mission to get even with the world To give back all the pain you received It's just too hard to believe That anything can make it better Please don't let it end this way You could wait another day It's foolish games that players play One choice can bring you so much ache Please don't end up this way There's got to be some other way You could live without this mistake So please wait You've been betrayed Left so confused Couldn't understand How trust could be so abused So you let the darkness Come over you Now you dont know Anyone to turn to You're beat up and bitter Face down in the cold Lyin' in the ground with footprints on your back Where ya gonna go? You've never been so low Please don't let it end this way You could wait another day It's foolish games that players play One choice can bring you so much ache Please don't end up this way There's got to be some other way You could live without this mistake So please wait Please don't let it end this way You could wait another day It's foolish games that players play One choice can bring you so much ache Please don't end up this way There's got to be some other way You could live without this mistake So please wait |
| Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 25 2005, 01:36 PM | ||
Yes! That's how it felt being a Xtian. Lied to. Hurt. Confused. Betrayed. Afraid. Yes, much better of without those feelings since I left Xtianity. |
| Posted by: GodsPrincess Feb 25 2005, 01:45 PM | ||
that's what you tell yourself...... but infact your just turning away from jesus because PEOPLE betrayed you and lied to you and hurt you! jesus is still waiting for your love and is still willing to give you REAL love -- not the false love that your church gave you. were all sinners, including christians unfortunately. but GOD would never hurt you. i think you should give HIM a chance. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 01:48 PM | ||
Like he didn't hurt the Egyptians? |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 01:49 PM | ||
I wouldn't so much say lied to, hurt, betrayed and laying broken and aching and wanting. More like disappointed that I stood waiting for a train that never came (Christianity), went out and bought a really bitchin' car (My own free will), and now I'm having a much more satisfying, fulfilling time knowing I'm doing what I want for myself. Perhaps if, after giving up on Christianity I was dispairing, lost and empty, reaching out for something, that song would do...I dunno, something for me. Such is not the case. I used to moan and wonder and hope and pray that I was pleasing God and never really knew because I never got any feedback from Him. Now, however, I know right away if I'm pleasing myself and can rectify immediately. Much more efficient. My choices are much more deliberate and genuine because I'm living for myself, not for some absent, silent, deity who will not show Himself or deign to speak to His faithful devotee. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 01:49 PM | ||||
Well its just too damn bad that you Christians can't do a real good job of representing the guy. Perhaps Jesus should step in. Ask him for us. The Bible tells us that God will do anything for those that really believe like yourself. So take it up with him. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 25 2005, 01:50 PM | ||||
That was justified, silly goose! God would never hurt you unless you deserve it! |
| Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 25 2005, 01:52 PM | ||||
I think 20 years or so is quite enough time to give to your demon gawd thank you. Pray to a brick, pray to your gawd. The results will be the same. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 25 2005, 01:53 PM | ||||
Please describe how this Divine Love is manifest in this life? I mean, just in case I never actually looked for any person or institution to do anything for me when I was a believer. What evidence might I have had to know God loved me and Jesus was real? Please tell. |
| Posted by: SmallStone Feb 25 2005, 01:58 PM | ||||||
Ahhhhh. That old chestnut. |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 02:03 PM | ||
LOL! I didn't think it looked that obvious, I thought it had more of a modern androgynous look a la Marilyn Manson to it. But yeah it is a 1920's movie babe, though I'm none of those things. I still think it's a striking image though. bdp |
| Posted by: bdp Feb 25 2005, 02:10 PM | ||
Oh boy, did it ever...*sigh* still picking up pieces but I'll never have those 15 years back where I denied myself and passed up opportunities. bdp |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 02:13 PM | ||||
You know, that is sooo true. I rejected Crazianity as a wee lad. And I've had so many great! experiences (yeah mostly sexual) that I would have missed otherwise. And cussing. I would have missed that a lot too. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 25 2005, 02:19 PM | ||||
That's really fun to say...sha nah nah gens! What are you saying SS? That you are not rebelling against Allah the Alla Mighty? Oh, wait...that's the newbie doing that isn't it? |
| Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 25 2005, 02:27 PM | ||
How very nice, Please tell Jesus I said thanks... |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 02:33 PM | ||||
Why is he always so angry? Bipolar or something? What a miserable existence. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 02:36 PM |
Once could call the bible " wrathing-paper" to go along with that free gift of his.  I really really crack myself up!  |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 25 2005, 02:37 PM | ||
I just love it when one looks on the bright side of one thing and on the dark side of something else that is identical. What does Santa do? He brings gifts to children (and adults, through people giving to people) What does Jesus do? He brings gifts to children and adults (that act like children). Bad side: What does Santa do? He brings out greed in people. What does Jesus do? He brings out greed in people. What you see: What does Santa do? He brings out greed because of the people that receive those gifts are wanting more. What does Jesus do? Jesus brings out love in people that want nothing in return (huh?). What is the reward for believing in Jesus? Is it greater than toys? Now you tell me which would promote more greed? |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 25 2005, 02:38 PM | ||
 |
| Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 25 2005, 02:40 PM | ||||||
I think there is something about being a god that gives them constipation. None of them seem very happy. Perhaps if we all prayed for bran flakes? |
| Posted by: The Silent One Feb 25 2005, 02:42 PM | ||||
I... I never saw it before! You're right! God's right there for me! Oh thank you! You've helped God open my eyes! Okay, no, no you haven't. This is a feel good piece which assumes that we're all 'rebelling' because we didn't like being 'hurt' by the folks at church. That, dear, is a catalyst, a starting point, for most here that (if that was their experience) led them to question their faith, and then research it rationally, and find the load of crap that it was. We 'reject' Jesus (read: don't believe in him) not because some human hurt us, but because we find no evidence of him as God, and for some of us, no evidence of him even EXISTING. |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 25 2005, 02:44 PM | ||
in the spirit of quicksand's wit: if god is bipolar, santa is only north-polar! |
| Posted by: crazy-tiger Feb 25 2005, 02:47 PM | ||||||
'Fraid not... I'd already left Christianity before this wonderful, egotistical, sexist, racist, arrogant, condesending fuckface of a peadophilic Christian minister decided to show me just what Jesus's "true love" was...
Only according to Christians, so don't try to lay any kind of guilt-trip on us...
Fuck off! God is going to torture me for all eternity if I don't get down on my knees and "worship" him... It's the same old crap... why can't you Christians come up with a new way to stereotype us? |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 25 2005, 02:47 PM | ||||
Oh shit! |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 25 2005, 02:52 PM | ||||||
Let's hope none of decides togo into comedy as a serious profession! |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 25 2005, 02:58 PM |
| reading this makes me miss quine.... |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 25 2005, 03:01 PM | ||
OH THE HORROR!  |
| Posted by: nivek Feb 25 2005, 04:45 PM |
| wired.... If it is said correctly I 'worship" anybody, it would be John Moses Browning. Not because that LDS cat was a mormon, but because he was the most prolific Inventor of American Firearms, ever.. For this mean_old_man, firearms are indeed "Libertys Teeth". Nothing says "Fuck Off" to a rapist, murderer, abuser, fag basher, or other miscreant intent on depriving one of their Freedom and/or Life like JMB and a "Ballistics Party". Worship what you want, be "not pissed at jesus", be happy, content, and prepared.. have a 38 Special tucked where you can reach it at all times.. "Know Peace, Through Superior Firepower" Life is pretty damn simple when the badguys can't fuck with you... n, Freeman, through force of Arms *when* necessary |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 25 2005, 05:05 PM | ||
I agree. If my dogs don't get em, I will. |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 25 2005, 05:37 PM | ||||
I wasn't referring to you at all Euthphro....I was referring to the christian that is trying to help us with his 'arguments.' Sorry for the confusion! |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 25 2005, 05:40 PM |
| I am very paranoid of smart people even though I admire them. In R.T. people think I'm dumb because of my Southern English. I relocated 5 years ago. People poke fun at me, and its wierd that I project my fears here of all places. I just now took a chill pill. Thanks Sorry. |
| Posted by: CRCampbell Feb 25 2005, 05:54 PM | ||
This Christian cliche of yours is one regurgitated in ALL circles. Unfortunately, it flat out contradicts so many scriptures that urge works. This is just one of millions of confusing doctrines found in the collection of man-made books claimed as "gawd's wurd". |
| Posted by: GreyGirl Feb 25 2005, 05:57 PM |
| Why did you reject the Invisible Pink Unicorn? Answer that question, and you'll have answered your own question. |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Feb 25 2005, 06:07 PM | ||
And then there were those of us who were never a member of the church. Hi, I never left any formal version of theology. I'm just someone with an average education who finds it somewhat strange that there is so much emphasis put on stories that not only don't have any clear indication of being true but also seem to have a lot of indication of being false. Our own medical knowledge tells us that damage to the brain has direct influence on a person's ability to behave and interact in society and his environment in general. If enough damage occurs, then the person simply ceases to be who they are and they become brain-dead. But the most prominant religion in the world exists on the principle that some guy 2000 years ago came back to life three days after his death, and this just happened to take place at a time when the human race was particularly naive and a lot of similar myths and legends just happened to be passed around. And yet I'm supposed to believe that this is not a myth and that this god-man really did come back to life. Do I have to explain why I find this preposterous? I mean, what else really needs to be said? |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 25 2005, 06:20 PM | ||
I was told when in pre-marital counseling- of all places- that people can not feel or recieve God's love until they deal with their issues and learn to love themselves. In the book, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", written by a Chrsitian author- he explains that it is best to raise our children constantly reinforcing the fact that God loves them so that they can feel His love all their life. Sounds like mental conditioning if you ask me. I would think an omnipotent diety that implants his spirit in his followers could overcome human obstacles like growing up feeling unloved or not being told of God's love as an impressionable child. It was stuff like this that rang false to me. But hey, that's just me. |
| Posted by: CRCampbell Feb 25 2005, 06:43 PM | ||
How many times are they going to answer your question before you stop asking it? |
| Posted by: CRCampbell Feb 25 2005, 06:44 PM | ||
I was a born again, Bible believing Christian who was studied up on all the apologetics. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:18 PM | ||||
If Hell were a real place, a comment such as this would be grounds for your presence there…   I like Star Wars. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:20 PM | ||||
Wutt’r U? Nuts?  |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:20 PM | ||
When someone is ‘seeking’ something, that means that they don’t know where it’s at. Does God have to ‘seek’ for anything? Did God misplace Ratto? |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:22 PM | ||
I’d be willin’ to bet my left nut that if you took patrons from one strip-club and placed them in another strip-club, they would have no problem in getting along with the regulars there. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:23 PM | ||||
To the best of my knowledge, there has never been a single God from any ‘revealed’ religion that has bothered to even slightly teach, or explain, honesty to its believers. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:24 PM | ||||
If I thought for a second that you’ve ever given your bible an honest evaluation, I’d call you a liar. Here's a little secret... Read it as though it is the first time you’ve ever read it…  |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:27 PM | ||||||||
There are things that I’ve experienced in my life that have taught me to never underestimate the sheer raw power and sovereignty over my intestines, that has been bestowed upon the bran flake.   |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:28 PM | ||||
    |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 25 2005, 10:31 PM | ||
I don't think there is any 'side' to this community here.  |
| Posted by: Mr. Neil Feb 25 2005, 10:45 PM |
| Perhaps the real question should be "Why accept Jesus?". I see no reason. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 25 2005, 11:49 PM | ||
I never believed. But some of the teachings attributed to Jesus Christ were very powerful to me. But now when ever I read the beautiful parts of the jesus philosophy I get really pissed off because I remember the "Only through me...." and the threats of hell. Also the parts in the bible were jesus the sword wants us to choose him over even our own families should they turn apostate. Threats, Bribes, and blind submision. Theres no dignity in that. Thats how a pimp treats his whores. Just like any other pimp, pimp daddy jesus mixes in sweet talk with his bribes and threats while calling us worthless. " You need me and only me!" "I did it for you now be grateful!" "You are a worthless sinner!" Pimpin'. I wish I could go back in time to see if there really was a jesus just to see what he really taught. If HIS teachings were what I hoped for I would demand that he write severel books and I would hide copies in a cave some were. i dunno. |
| Posted by: saviorforsale Feb 25 2005, 11:54 PM |
| Well, you USED to believe in Santa Claus! Why dont you anymore? Because you grew up and were honest with yourself. I picture Jesus as the "adult's Santa Claus". Some people will never grow up and some will NEVER be honest with themselves. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 26 2005, 12:01 AM | ||
You wouldn't have to hide them in a cave.  All you would have to do is, tie a rope around them and hang them on the OUTSIDE of your time machine while you returned to the present. That way, the pages will be properly aged when you get back and there won't be any disagreement over when they were written. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 26 2005, 12:06 AM | ||||
Fuck that - tea bag it. no balls required!     |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 26 2005, 12:09 AM | ||
I see someone has been tippin' the'ol glass tonight, huh?  |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 26 2005, 12:12 AM | ||||
tippimg? lol oh my.. nah its like tipping however youre in a cigarette boat with gravity ninebillgion times heavier than we know it on a waterfall - going downhill nah not at all  |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 26 2005, 12:16 AM | ||
 |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 26 2005, 12:26 AM | ||||
Good thinkin'. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 26 2005, 12:32 AM | ||||||
YOU'RE DESSSPICABLE!!!  What does "tea bag it" mean? |
| Posted by: Kay Feb 26 2005, 12:38 AM | ||||||
Shifting the onus of proof AND pascal's wager (aka a pathetic attempt at fear mongering) all in the one post!  And I note that you still haven't provided evidence that Jesus did die to save people's souls. Wired, before you so typically and condescendingly label us ungrateful rebellious souls (aka ego masturbation), please respond to Bruce's post. For your convenience, I have taken the part that you need to answer before any meaningful discussion may continue:
What standard of proof shall we use? How about criminal standards of proof beyond reasonable doubt. Of course, that means the hearsay rule kicks in, which means that I don't give a flying fuck what Party B says in the bible about what Party A told him about Jesus. Furthermore, if you do intend to rely on historial evidence such as the Josephus, please engage Rameus on this thread (http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=946&hl=testimonium).
In the words of the webmaster: "love me or I'll burn you for all eternity!" Real unconditional love brimming for us there..... Kay |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 26 2005, 12:43 AM | ||||||||
i use the eupamism in a "double entrade way" meang' not only can tea bags age a document, but when a man rest his balls on someone forehead sticking thru his underpants, its tea bagging once again its a funny, wel okay not super funy but well kinda funny? |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 26 2005, 12:56 AM | ||
LOL. |
| Posted by: VulgarisPrime Feb 26 2005, 11:50 AM | ||
ERROR: Presumes facts not entered into evidnce. Sorry, girlie, but not all of us got out of the cult because we were treated like shit - some of us (myself included) simply found it to be illogical and pointless. I figure, what kind of god is it that's not powerful or caring enough to show himself DIRECTLY UPON REQUEST? And don't give me the "you can't question GAAAWD!!!!!!111ONEONE" run-around, because any god that cares so much shouldn't have any problem with owning up. You'd benefit from reading up on past beatings other Babbleheads have received here. You'd notice every argument you could EVER USE being used, abused, and defused. It might lead you out of here... or it may very well lead you to end your abusive relationship with Biblegod™. |
| Posted by: Fyrefly Feb 26 2005, 07:59 PM |
| Why do people reject Jesus Christ? Because they learn to think for themselves. It's as simple as that. I may not be the most intelligent person in the world (hell, with an IQ of barely 100, I'm definitely not the sharpest nail in the toolbox), but even I figured out that, with all the archaeological proof we have, there is no possible way that one lone higher power could have created an entire world in six days. And there is no proof that Jesus Christ even existed. And without any tangible proof, then guess what? I don't believe. But that is not admittedly the only reason I don't believe. I was hurt irreparably, both emotionally and psychologically, by Christians, who were kids my own age and the teachers at the Christian school I was forced into attending for seven long years. I used to believe, but after witnessing the behaviour of the Christians that I interacted with over that seven-year period, not only did I become completely disillusioned, but it frightened the shit out of me. There is only one religion that I am willing to try these days - Wicca. I feel a kinship with it, and as soon as I'm able to leave home then I'm taking it up as soon as possible. It may the only way for me to find, after searching for Goddess only knows how long, that little place in the world where I truly belong. |
| Posted by: Merlinfmct87 Feb 26 2005, 11:58 PM |
| I don't believe in jesus because he didn't give me Broadband Internet and the Ultimate Gaming Machine. Merlin |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 27 2005, 01:05 AM | ||
You took it out on context. According to the newly discovered scrolls, Jesus clearly stated "Where I go will be many mansions with fibre-optics and high-bandwidth drops". Jesus did not say you would get it here in this life. HERECTIC! //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Merlinfmct87 Feb 27 2005, 01:31 AM | ||||
If I accept heretic status does that mean I get broadband? Merlin |
| Posted by: BlueGiant Feb 27 2005, 02:42 AM |
| Well, you asked, just hope you're still here to read the response... Let me tell you something about the nature of what you call god. It doesn't care. Really, it doesn't. You want my evidence, spend a day in an ER or even better, an ICU. The key trick to this is to look at what is happening around you and to actually understand it. It is there, it may act, it may be sentient, may not, probably is huge. My closest concept to what you call god would be whatever underlies the universe, be it some being, a grand unified theory, the tao, something along those lines, however at its level, let's just say that it really is too big to care. I left because I got a better deal, and realized that Christianity was a farce, and not even all that funny of one at that. The long and short of it is that I woke up, and realized that the Pauline branch of Christiantiy was a complete crock, put bluntly. Any other would-be soul winners on this thread are welccome to respond to this. I don't expect love from some invisibe sky daddy, why pine for what I already have from my fellow man? |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 27 2005, 03:28 AM | ||
Is it possible that God(s)/Sentient Universe had at least a measure of love for us, by giving us the potential to build an ever improving paradise? As you say we have eachother. I am grateful for our ability to Love. |
| Posted by: ~Dhampir:~ Feb 27 2005, 11:04 AM |
| I reject Jesus and all other man-made gods because everyone who believes in them, without exception, believes in them. Belief is unnecessary in the face of actual knowledge. |
| Posted by: BlueGiant Feb 27 2005, 03:42 PM | ||
Disclaimer time: my personal views meant for personal use, kinda like that stash in grandpa's cornfield. That being said, it is possible, but more based on looking around myself (mostly due to the "problem of evil"), I'm pretty well convinced with the answer: no. It is possible, that there was/is, but I do not feel that this is likely. I also question whether we can ever achieve a paradise. In some ways, a perfect world would be hell. I question whether the potential is there at all. I know some in humanity have it, but I don't think everyone does, at least those are my thoughts at this time. |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 28 2005, 03:03 AM |
| Is this what I missed by being out sick? Another Fundy comes and goes... Fly Fundy! Let the wind be at your back! |
| Posted by: Pseudonym Feb 28 2005, 03:10 AM |
| The implication of your argument is that those who reject christianity are on some immature "anti-authority" trip, lashing out at a former parent figure who has done nothing to warrant their ire. How then does your argument account for people such as myself, who have never been christian, who was raised in a secular environment and was able to critically consider the bible and still rejected it? |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 05:43 AM | ||
Glad you are feeling better, Reach. Sounds like you are even feeling poetic. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 28 2005, 06:04 AM | ||
I agree. ^_^ But I don't think wired IS still here to read the response... didn't he say he'd be gone for like 2 hours? |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 28 2005, 07:40 AM | ||
The Fundy will invoke God's Huge and Mysterious Prerogative on this one and say that all the suffering brings an opportunity for those in this life to glorify Him with their demonstrations of Faith and Hope and the Promise of His Goodness. I quit buyin' it too. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 07:57 AM |
| I am back, and buried in snow at the moment. Sorry for not responding sooner, I did not get a chance to post again on Friday night and this weekend was too jam packed. I was reading through the posts and I sensed deep bitterness (Even if Jesus isn't the right way (even though he is) I would still not want to be like any of you). Several people did pose some interesting questions which I am going to do my best to answer and then all of you can critically evaluate my answers (which I am sure you all will enjoy doing). Here are the questions I will attempt to answer... Prove Yahweh can logically exist Prove Yahweh does exist Prove Jesus existed Prove Jesus was/is Yahweh Prove the claims made in the Bible that are contradicted by reality I will use a mixture of the Bible and outside historical facts. Give me a week or so to do this, I have a very busy schedule. I will answer them in the order listed. I will not respond to any comments until I have answered all five (although I reserve the right to violate this). I have no expectation that I will win any of you over, but the intellectual exercise seems interesting. After all, I am one of the few Christians I know who did not get saved through some emotional experience or because my friends were doing it or because I was in some deep dark depression. I got saved because I was impressed by the prophetic nature (and fulfilling of that prophesy) of the Bible and decided the Bible was for real and then followed the Bible's plan of salvation as outlined in the New Testament. I will need some help on the last question... "Prove the claims made in the Bible that are contradicted by reality" - I need to know what claims are supposedly contradicted by reality. If this list is too long, it may take longer than a week. By the way, give me some good stuff here, if I get the same old, same old from every "I hate the Bible web site", I will be disappointed. Such as "a snail's shell does not melt as stated in Psalms 58:8" when in fact the primary ingredient in a snail's shell is calcium carbonate and it has a melting point of 825C. I look forward to doing this... Thanks! By the way, I will ignore all future replies that use foul language, such language is unbecoming of a person and merely shows a lack of creativity in your word choice. And further reinforces that you really do have nothing to offer this discussion or the world. |
| Posted by: Heimdall Feb 28 2005, 07:57 AM | ||
Dear Wired, as a 3rd generation Deist who has never belonged to your little cult, my answer would be: I see nothing in your religion that is more than a poor copy of other mythologys of much older religions. There is no contemporary secular historical evidence of the existence of your "Savior", nor is there any evidence for his so-called disciples. I would probably come as close to being an "animalist" as a Christ Cultist. In fact probably more apt to be an animalist, seeing the blood soaked history of your religion - Does that answer your question? |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:02 AM |
| Hemdall, Good to see you again. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:19 AM | ||||
I will give you a few, which are as you want the good stuff.
If you are a tue believer, can you drink Drano and not be affected? If so will you prove it? If not, then why does the Bible make this claim? Many apologist claims this is an addition to the original text, if this is so, why should we believe anything in the Bible?//Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 08:28 AM |
| Bruce, Your first and third questions are good and I will look into them. The second question is trivial. I have never been to China but I can see China on my TV set. If I had several TVs broadcasting images of different parts of the earth I could easily see all of the kingdoms. Now something tells me that if man can figure out how to see the whole earth from one location on the earth, then God and Satan can figure it out. Thanks... Eric |
| Posted by: Slayer-2004 Feb 28 2005, 08:29 AM | ||
you forgot "prove" the bible was written by Yahweh . Otherwise you may end up mistakenly "proving" the claims in the bible are not contradictory because yahweh wrote it , which will result in circular reasoning . Man , I mention circular reasoning a lot when I debate with religion . |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:30 AM |
| Wired, Television and artificial satellites did not exist 2,000 years ago. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 08:31 AM |
| By the way, I should probably let you all know that I am KJV-Only. So quotes from the Bible must use the KJV. I consider the NIV and other English translations to be Satan's counterfeits. I know this is a whole different topic of debate (which we will not enter into now). So please reference all verses from the KJV. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 08:33 AM |
| Bruce, you missed the point. If man can figure out how to develop satellites and TVs, then God and Satan can figure out how to see the whole world at once, using whatever methods they use. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:34 AM | ||
Heh, I guess if the KJV was good enough for the apostles it is good enough for us? How about dealing with Kione Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, which is what they were written in? Sola lingua bona est lingua mortua! //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:38 AM | ||
Wired, I guess thee missed the point. Art thou suggesting that this story is not literally true but allegorical? If so, please telleth me how thou can determine what is literal and what is allegorical? //Bruce// |
| Posted by: mrtruth Feb 28 2005, 08:47 AM | ||
Wow....I don't even know what to say.....satan's counterfeits..... wow.... The KJV 1611....from God's mouth to our eyes/ears. Not a bit of human intervention involved. wow.... |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 08:51 AM |
| Bruce, I am saying it is literally true. But you are making an assumption that a supernatural act did not take place. One cannot merely dismiss the supernatural because they cannot explain it or see it. That is the biggest problem with you folks. If I can't put in front of your face then it must not be true. How sad of a life you folks must lead since the greatest things in life cannot be seen such as love. Sure you say you can see the results of love or experience the feelings of love, but the Christian says the same thing about Jesus and you folks are so quick to dismiss it. So I guess you are so quick to dismiss love. Consider this verse (although I am sure many of you already have) 2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. I'd rather focus on the eternal than the temporal myself... |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 28 2005, 08:51 AM | ||||
All those years I was reading satan's bible (mostly NASB). No wonder I deconverted. This pretty much ended what little interest I still had in this discussion. Next... |
| Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 28 2005, 08:51 AM |
| Didnst thou knowest that Gawd only speaketh Olde English? Modern languages are the labors of that evil serpent call Satan. Get down on thy knees sinner, pray to thy Lord, and rebuke him that writteth such false slanders and untruths. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 08:58 AM | ||
Wired, Avoid the ad hominems and stick to the points. If you can prove your faith and claims, then please do so. If not, then admit it is all faith and don't waste my time. You are the one who accepted the challenge to explain the problems on my terms. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:01 AM |
| Does anyone other than Bruce offer real substance on this forum thing? Sarcastic remarks are not appreciated nor are they beneficial in discussion. Besides what is the point of being a "free thinker" if the thoughts are just junk or pointless insults. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 09:07 AM | ||
Once parts of brain, or your brains dies as your body gives out that's it – no memories, no thoughts, nothing. So this eternal you're focusing on, your very likely to mindless for that eternity. Pretty neat. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:08 AM |
| Bruce, You seem to be a serious guy, I like that. What if the proof is supernatural? I will do my best the answer the other questions under the assumptions previously set forth. But as a little side consideration... What if the proof is supernatural? What line of reasoning can you offer that rejects the supernatural? I'm not trying to dive into ghost stories here. But, it seems to me to so quickly dismiss the supernatural is a very dangerous position to take. What do you think? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 09:10 AM | ||
YOU came here to preach. Not to "discuss." So please, cry somewhere else. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:13 AM |
| gee, quicksand, I did not know you could read my mind. give up on the cheap shots, I'm not impressed.... If I wanted to preach (which I probably should) you would know it.... |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 28 2005, 09:15 AM | ||||||||
I agree, Bruce is terrific. But even if I were still a fundy xian, I would probably not have any dialog with you. As for pointless insults, check out your signature:
Interesting in light of: Matt 5:22 - "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Also, quoting you:
Very condescending. Early in this post you seemed more rational and genuine and I responded in kind. Then in your first post you're all about Jesus:
Now it turns out, all bibles other than KJV are satanic. Now I know pretty much what to expect if I were to stick around and read your further posts. To quote you again: 'Same old same old'. Bye. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 09:15 AM | ||
I spend my use of reason wisely and on who I spend it on – wiser still. Cheap shots, don't cost me dime. You want a debate? Then, post a topic. I haven't had a good religous debate in awhile. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 09:19 AM | ||
I do not think it is dangerous to dismiss the claims of the supernatural. The facts of history and science seem to bear that out. When the supernatural was a generally accepted premise, unknowns were attributed to gods, demons, fairies, ghosts, etc. An eruption of a volcano was attributed to the anger of the god(s) and people presumed that something in human behavior had to be modified or something/someone had to be sacrificed to appease the god(s). We now know that vulcanism is caused by perfectly natural processes of plate subduction and have developed the technologies to predict when a volcano is going to erupt with ever increasing levels of accuracy. This naturalistic science has saved more people from vulcanistic events than all the sacrifices to appease god(s) ever did in the past. Wired, I think it is exceedingly dangerous to presume the supernatural exists, because it has led people to not investigate or learn the facts of reality, but instead to attribute events to invisible beings and then suffer in continual ignorance. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: VulgarisPrime Feb 28 2005, 09:22 AM | ||||
Sorry, baby; our board, our rules. Don't like? Leave. (Of course, we usually use the KJV as our own reference, so asking for it is kind of moot.) Besides, the KJV was edited by old Jim to give justification for all his paranoid hatred. You're the one living the lie, girl, not us.
I refer you to your own http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?act=Search&CODE=getalluser&mid=637. YOU PREACH. And we DO know it. |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 28 2005, 09:25 AM |
| Is this your website? www.wiredoutreach.org |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:27 AM |
| Diogenes, Don't be so quick to leave. My harsh comments are for those who are here to be jerks. I singled out bruce as he took the time to respond to my earlier post about the questions I will attempt to answer. I read your testimony about your life as a christian which you posted on the topic on Friday. You gave an overview of why you left, but you were not specific. In reading the anti-testimonies of others I found myself sympathetic with some of the statements they made as I could see from my own life where they would come to those conclusions. My goal here is not to beat up on people, but merely find out why and now I am adding to that list of goals the answering of those questions. I hope you'll reconsider joining the discussion. |
| Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 28 2005, 09:28 AM |
| Are yaw located in Houston TX? |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 28 2005, 09:29 AM | ||
I'm sure if God or Jesus existed, they could probably make castles of cheese and pull elephants out of their hats as well. Unfortunately, (or probably fortunately, if you've looked at the bible lately) they don't exist. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:30 AM |
| Yes, my web site is www.wiredoutreach.org. It needs to be updated, I have not had time for that recently, plus it is a work in progress. Any comments would be greatly appreciated. In fact, I don't really have time for this, but I find you folks and your arguments to be interesting. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 09:31 AM |
| Wired, Here is my anti-testimony. Please read it so you can have a basis of understanding of why I no longer am a Christian. http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3077 //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:32 AM |
| I am located in the area of Lynchburg, VA. No, I do not go to Jerry Falwell's church. In fact, I don't even like Jerry, that's another issue, I will not dive into... |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 09:32 AM | ||||
I spit my orange juice when I read that too "Ronny James" Dio-gnese. Like a dawg-fight I'd like to put this guy in the pit against a contrarian. Four centuries ago, William Tyndale translated the vulgate Bible into English. The Roman Catholic church hounded him and burned him like a witch at the stake and all his translated copies. I wonder if Wired knew this? He could in fact be reading a translation that is inspired by witchcraft and by Satan. Obvisouly, the Catholic church thought it prudent to do so. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 28 2005, 09:34 AM | ||||
|
| Posted by: DanInPA Feb 28 2005, 09:44 AM | ||
So you're ready for that shot of Drano? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 09:48 AM | ||||
Or more cool-aide? Wired, the only aspects of this universe that we can test and verify are those things that are natural and confrom to natural laws – because that's where we live. We have no science, no tool that is, and no empircal way of testing anything that is held as "supernatural." Sorry, but the realm of your Gods is not demonstrable. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:50 AM |
| Bruce, I read your anti-testimony. Interesting... so a college course in apologetics is what killed your faith (or at lease it was the straw that broke the camel's back). Did you ever consider that the professors teaching those courses were seeking to destroy your faith? I have dealt with a number of pastors who were very "learned" and they didn't believe the Bible either. They taught their people to believe it, but they did not. That is very deceptive I think. If you don't believe don't tell others to. Don't you think its odd that a "Baptist" college would even teach stuff that would make Christianity appear a fraud. I started taking a course one time a Liberty University on systematic theology. At the beginning of the course the professor (Elmer Towns) started telling the me the Bible 100% true. But by the middle of the course he was correcting it. How can something be true if it needs to be corrected. This is rank hypocrisy if you ask me. Either believe the book or don't. At least you folks here are honest, and that I can respect, even if I disagree with your conclusion. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:53 AM |
| quicksand... I agree we live in the natural world. But prove love. It is natural, but it is something you cannot prove. If you do prove it, the same arguments used to prove it can be used to prove Jesus. Kind of odd to since God is love. By the way, what other religions claim that God is love? (This is a serious question, I do not know the answer) |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 28 2005, 09:56 AM | ||
Your first question was 'why reject Jesus'..you've been answered, and you've failed to address any of the points made. Now it seems you're only interested in reconversion...how about you clarify what it is you're actually here to discuss..and we can all go from there. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 09:58 AM |
| clegicide, I am going to answer the five other questions I posted earlier today. I just have not had time yet. Instead, I have just gotten caught in the conversation going back and forth, but I will answer them.... |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 28 2005, 10:08 AM | ||
These 5? I wouldn't go with those 5 if I were you. I would pick others that can factually be answered. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 10:08 AM | ||
Sure... I can prove love very easily. It's in your noggin, that 3 Pounds of grey matter that fills the space in your cranial cavity. Similarity so is your belief in Jesus. Its all in your head. God is love? So is Visnu. You believe in Visnu? And Ganeasha? My Hindu friends all say the same thing. God is love. Well god and himself as Jesus that came from his incestious relationship with his mother is in your brain as well. If "love" is the "tool" in which we use to access the supernatural, than its all in our brain. Tell me, is your brain, that 3 Pounds floating somewhere out in the supernatural ether? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:14 AM |
| clergicide, if I cannot logically prove that God exists, then frankly what is the point? I have tried this before but I want to make sure that I put together a good argument before I post it. I perceive that all of you are very well versed on the "usual" arguments used, so I will strive to come up with something unique and interesting. Now, ultimately, if a person just refuses to believe then I am afraid there is nothing I can do to persuade. After I prove the first, I will then use it as a stepping stone to prove the others. But, the existance of God must be proved or none of this matters. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 10:19 AM | ||
I'm just waiting for you to answer Bruce. I think the problem is, that you are not the first Christian who has come here and sparked up a debate. It's kind of been done before. I wish you would stick to the questions you feel are "worthy". Ignore the posts you do not feel are worthy of your attention and stop wasting time making pointless posts to counter other "pointless" posts. Just within the past few minutes you have pretty much told us we lead "sad" lives and throw out "junk", among other ad hominems. We get the point. YOu don't approve of people who are not Chrisians- and I am guessing- you don't approve of people who are not KJV-onliest Christians (I mean, how could you, them reading the Devil's word and all). So just get on with the show. Regale us with your brand of True Christianity ™. |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 28 2005, 10:19 AM | ||
I think proving the 'Christian God' exists would be more productive for you than simply trying to prove that there is a God..many of us here are agnostic to some degree. Simply proving God exists says nothing about how pleased He is with how you fundy's have portrayed him in your holy book. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 10:22 AM | ||||
I've wondered about that. Without the brain, can a person exist. Christianity says we are "spirits". Yet, if someone gets in an accident and becomes an amnesiac, starts their life over from scratch with no memories- are they even the same person. Without our memories, how do we know who we are. If we leave our brain behind when we go to heaven, and we go without memories, what difference will it make? We will not know anything of our earthly life, and neither know why we are recieving blessings or punishment. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 28 2005, 10:27 AM |
| Furthermore, our cells completely regenerate themselves every 6 or 7 years. (I forget exactly which.) So the person you were at age 1 is made up of totally different cells than the person you are today. It's a curious head-scratcher: who am I? My cells - which die and replace themselves? My memories - which can be erased? Wasn't there a novel about a detective or cop who got amnesia and forgot everything about himself, and was shocked to find out that he was a really horrible person? I think it was by Anne Perry, but I'm not sure. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:28 AM | ||
Your ideas and my ideas are in our heads that does not make them so. Saying love is in our head is no proof. People can see the love the between two people. Do we exhibit ESP when we see that love between two people? Can we read their minds? There is something bigger, something our rational conscience may not completely understand. Love is not a logical concept, yet is exists and exists everywhere... Every culture, has love, our children have love for their parents even when those parents do not exhibit love towards that child. Have you ever wondered why every society has a desire to seek God? There is something within all people to worship something. Now that worship may be misguided, but everyone worships something. Perhaps money, sports, education, their own ego, or various gods, or the one true God (I through in the "one true" just for fun ). So what is this love that people pursue? What is this worship that all people look for? Are they related? Could it be that people are looking for something to love and worship, something bigger than themselves? Take "Free Thinking", is this not a god? |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 28 2005, 10:28 AM | ||
Reminds me of the movie 'Dark City'. |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 28 2005, 10:30 AM | ||
Yes of course people are looking for something, more meaning to life. Churches like yours have sold them a bogus answer for millenia for 10% of the Gross. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 10:32 AM | ||
Love is an emotions, same as anger, sadness, happiness...etc. Humans can demonstrate their emotions through actions. The supernatural is not in the same realm as emotions. It supercedes emotions, just as it supercedes the 5 senses, and supercedes the laws of reality. Loving Jesus and feeling loved by Jesus; are conditioned responses and feelings. Why would God put Himself above all the abilities that humans have to sense Him, and then fry them for being being unable to sense Him with the tools He equipped them with? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:34 AM |
| Consider this, many of the people who become ExChristians are disappointed, feel lost? Why? When my parents told me Santa was not real I did not feel lost or disappointed. I still got the same number of toys, my parents were just not lying to me anymore. But, if I ever came to the point in my life where I believe I lost Christ, that would devastate me! Why? Why does it devastate some many who come here? What is in us that causes us to look for God? While this is certainly not a convincing proof for a God, it does provoke some serious thought on the matter... |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 10:34 AM | ||||||
I'm not real read up on it. But what medical science has discovered and learned from Alzheimer's research and through cases of severe brain damage that once parts (cells, not necessarily the specific regions of the brain like the reptilian or mammilian) of the brain is gone, so are the skills and memories associated with them. Wasn't Phineaus Bog, who got rammed with a pipe through the skull, had a change of personality. I know there as been other cases of this as well. I hadn't considered amnesia before Madam M (Good to see you back btw). For arguments sake, your "spirit" (latin "to breathe btw) is a back-up system and this backup system resides on mainframe heaven. Well once your brain looses all its prior memories and builds new once, I think its very possible that up at mainframe heaven, you could run into a copy of yourself, although you'd be a multiplicity and able to shake hands. Think of all the chores you could get done and how much faster it will be to count all those riches in heaven that Mat19:21 promises you. Yeah, what's the point of punishing if you can't remember how odious you were in life anyway. Won't matter, you're brain will have turned to jello anyway so blessings or punishment won't mean a thing. Perhaps, we will be Zombies with an insatiable appetite for flesh? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:40 AM | ||
But what if God did? Many people believe, he sent himself, he inspired a Book, he created all that is around us... He changes people lives... Yet all of this is dismissed as mythology and mental fraud. These statements don't prove a thing. Take creation... When I was Physics major we learned about the Big Bang. I could go along with that except where did the Bang come from? Which came first the the "chicken or the egg"? The only plausible explanation is an Intelligent Creator... Which I am sure many of you would agree with... Of course some would say, there ya are explaining the unexplainable with God again, but at some point it must be considered that there is a God. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 10:50 AM | ||||||||||||
[quotes=wired]
We don't see gravity, however its effects are pretty well demonstrated because bodies in space exhibit this fact that is testable. As is love. Humans exhibit this. Simple Occam's Razor. To go assert beyond what is axiomatic, is to make claims that can not be justified. You said it yourself... people can see the love the between two people. Which we call indirect observation of evidence.
Are you saying that you believe that ESP, and perhaps telekinesis is for real? Oh my. Get me some video tape. I'd like to see that one.
Ah, yes, love is logical. You're brain precedes the feelings of love.
So what? This is not a debate wether people love or not. But what loves prime-vector is.
Yes. And I studied it. Have you?
Wow , what a hunk of babble. I know where this is going. Theists sez: You make a God out of yourself... yadda yadda... If I could make a God out of myself, I'd be somewhere in that unreachable sphere of the supernatural. However, because I am not, I am just like you. Human, with a brain, but without a belief in God, which can not be defined because "it" is not even paying rent with the rest of us. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:55 AM |
| Everybody picture this, you're God (which I am sure of you think you really are) 1) You create everything 2) You perform miracles throughout the ages 3) You create man, commune with him, he rejects you 4) You plan a way to save him and bring him back to you. 5) You execute the plan yet people still reject, ever though it requires nothing of the person but to believe. 6) You give them a Book 7) You give some the ability to do miracles during certain times in history 8) You give prophesies in your book that come true. When you write me on this forum, you tell me your anti-testimonies, you tell me your logic, some of you send me private messages... But, I keep rejecting you, I telling you you're wrong, I keep telling you I just can't see it your way... In the end, I keep saying to you, I don't care what you say, I am still going to rebel and do what I think is right... And what is the response from you? Insults, complaints, criticism, I think one person wanted to put me in a pit. When I go against what you say you get mad, how many of you if given the choice would cast me into Hell? So if God tries to reach you but you keep rejecting, what do you think God's response will be? Think about like this, no matter what you tell me I will dismiss it. Do you not do the same thing with God? Just something all of us need to think about. As all of us, Christians included, reject the will of God everyday of our lives in favor of what we want to do. |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 28 2005, 10:56 AM | ||
Yeah, some serious thought about where you get your information from, that is. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 10:56 AM | ||||||||||||||
No we usually judge via their actions. Still the same, if you watch a romance movie, do you feel the "chemistry" between the actor and the actress? Does that mean in real life they are "in love" or were they just mimicing "love"? You could see two people holding hands, and one could be in head over heels love and the other could be staying out of obligation.
"Love" is tied in to our survival skills. Humans are social species and we need each other in order to survive. It is logical for people to "love", to feel a strong attachment to a person. There are also different reasons for love. Love can intermingle with sex. We are wired for sex for survival of the species purposes. Women get increases in hormones when they are pregnant, the nurturing hormones help them bond to their babies. Again survival of the species. Also, does love always make sense? Somebody might love you, but you feel indifferent towards them. Love can go haywire and cause someone to be a stalker. Why do we "hate"? Again, doesn't that have to do with survival instincts? Why do we often feel "hate" for those who disagree with our way of life. Does this lead back to survival instincts, when groups of people (tribes) stuck together in order to survive and an influx of differing opinions and traditions threatened their cohesiveness?
Children have survival instincts. They will instinctively bond with their primary adult caretakers for survival reasons. They are unable to fend for themselves, they require others to care for them. Also, if a child does not get to bond correctly or is abused from a young age, which interrupts bonding- they can develop attachment disorder which makes them unable to feel love for anyone. For that matter, how can you say that animals do not love? Christians do not believe animals have spirits, so where does their "love" come from? Does it come from survival instincts, chemical processes? Try to take a newborn pup away from it's mother and you are likely to be nursing a serious bite wound. Does she "love" her puppy? where does this instinct to nurture and care for her puppy come from? Why?
Yes, I have. And frankly, it led me to the point where I could not in honesty say that Christians had found the "only true way". If all are honestly seeking, why would God not have answered the other cultures throught history.
Who are you to say that other religions are "misguided" and yours is genuine. How do you determine this? By what measuring stick do you determine other religions to be misguided? do you look at their history? Do you look at their holy books? Do you look at the family values and morality? Or do you use your own holy book as the measuring stick, which is circular and sets up the other religions for failure before examination.
I think, first that people convince themselves to worship because they fear retribution and punishment. Which dates back to when people believed all natural occurances were the whims of the gods. They didn't know if a tornado would wipe them out or if the sun would come out consistently. So they started doing things to appease "gods". Eventually, science has explained much of what there is to explain, so mostly people just fear invisible demons and satan causing rukuses like cancer, and they fear the afterlife which can not be proven nor disproven.
No, it's just a label that means the person is not bound by religion. You are typing on your computer. Your answers require thought. Could I logically say that "thinking" is another god you worship in addition to the God of the Bible? |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 10:57 AM |
| quicksand, why does every society seek God? |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 28 2005, 10:57 AM | ||||
Then it would not be a God I would ever bring myself to love or worship. It would be like worshipping Hitler. |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 28 2005, 10:59 AM | ||
Pride is a sin, I believe, you arrogant sod. Perhaps you should try talking to us without all the ASSumptions, hm? I daresay you would fare better. As it stands now, you've got as much chance of converting anyone to your religion which turns people into arrogant sods as an ice cubes' chance in...well you know where. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 10:59 AM |
| Boo hoo! wired! Let's see what we got here. Lots of pouting, some Pascals Wager, ad hominem, and a little Tu Quque. Pretty complete on this one. Good job Wired! oh.... i forgot a little "persecuation-complex" thrown in for good measure too! |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 11:01 AM |
| Madame, where do instincts come from? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 11:02 AM | ||
And? What does that prove? Thinking is hard work. Thinking is dangerous. Why doesn't every society think? Why dont you tell me why every society seeks God. Please. But before you do, pause for a second, look around and remind yourself that we share your society and no longer seek your God. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 11:03 AM | ||
Because when one is a Christian, their whole life is consumed by Christian thought, Chrisitan stuff, Chrisitan friends and they look at the world through Christian lenses. The reaction of leaving is similar to people who leave cults. Or, have you ever dealt with a Jewish or Muslim person who converts to Christianity. I've dealt with Jewish people. They basically give up their whole way of life and family. (I know I just left myself open for some evangelism, but don't even go into the 'why would a Jew give up their way of life to be a Christian, must be the truth' stuff) It's the same for Christians who leave Christianity and their whole life and family is wrapped up in the religion. Even a recovering drug addict will be struggling and depressed for awhile, they not only gave up their drug crutch, but also their friends and lifestyle that went with it. they have to start all over again. Would you recommend they go back to the drugs? Anyone who gives up their worldview will have a time of adjustment. Don't judge by the adjustment period. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 11:09 AM |
| Cerise, I am arrogant? Excuse me? Where did I directly attack you? Do you think yourself a God? Also, you are making assumptions about me. Who says I am trying to convert? After all this a forum for ExChristians, so I assume most of the people here are born-again, which since I believe in "Eternal Security" means all of you are still going to heaven even if you don't want to. If I am here to do anything it would to urge all of you repent, but I have not stated that at all. I am here to hear your stories and now since this morning debate somethings. A truly arrogant person is the one who rejects the Saviour they accepted. Dismissing a Bible truth for their own "experiences". Now if we can get back to the discussion that would be great, keep the personal insults to yourself. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 11:10 AM | ||||
Well, "what if" He did. Then He is unprovable and unfindable. It's almost a ridiculous statement. In fact, you could almost wonder if perhaps He did such because He had no intent on setting up religions or writing books. Have you ever seriously looked into other religions and the history of religions? Have you ever asked yourself why other people believe their religions with as much fervency as you do yours. Have you ever visited a Muslim forum and read what they have to say about Allah, how they pour over their scriptures and express their devotion and love. (and I don't mean some kind of nutty jihad thing, just average joe Muslims). Have you ever wondered about many of the big religions that have come and gone through history. Have you ever thought that maybe you look at religion through colored lenses, that have been tinted by culture and the period of time you live in. At one point Christianity was the tiny underdog religion. at some point it will fade from popularity. At one point Islam was the underdog, now it is gaining on Christianity- may even overshadow it as far as population soon. Why is that? Why does Christianity act pretty much just like every other religion, with a parent set of beliefs to spin off of (Judaism), with a starting point, morphing over time..etc. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 11:11 AM |
| quicksand... you claim to be the "Free Thinker" and you said you studied the topic indepth. I have made no such claims. I only know that every society seeks God because of my hearts and the evidence of the millions of religions out there. |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 28 2005, 11:11 AM |
| So you need to directly attack someone in order to be considered arrogant? I don't think so. You are so sure you know each and every one of us, so certain that you know exactly what we think and feel, and you are smug and yes arrogant in the way you talk to us. I think you came here to pass judgement. So far you are proving me right. |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 11:13 AM | ||
We'll your redlined bottom quote for one shows the arrogance from the get-go. No person that does not believe in God has ever done good? Um, okay. Knowing this now, I should have kept my money that I donated for Tsumani relief and the amount of time and talent that I have worked in homeless organizations. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 28 2005, 11:13 AM | ||||
Our Man WideOutReach did say:
I took the time to reply most specifically to your question and at no time have mocked or otherwise attempted to demean your participation here. The best you've offered me is some nebulous suggestion about the coincidence that we should be here at the same time. OK, "million-to-one shot" was sarcastic, but it was a relevant and specific reply to your assertion that you and me on this board is God's will and I wouldn't find some active Christian here who wouldn't play the "God sent me" card.
I shall call "causality" on this argument. You suggest that it is leaving the church which results in people feeling "lost". I submit that these people were "lost" to begin with, attempted to be "found" in Christ, found that unsatisfying and returned to their previous "lost" state. I feel considerably more deliberate, aware, and alive after reclaiming my life for myself (and my wife and kids), rather than "giving it to God", or "living through Christ." As I described earlier, I waited and waited, faithfully performing the exercise, and found that after 12 years of it, my life was no better or worse by any metric than before "coming to Christ" (or leaving Him). When I was a practicing Christian, I did allow that I could not account for all the mysteries and inconsistencies described in the Bible, KJV, NIV, or RISB. I studied all three. I allowed that things like Satan showing Jesus all the kingdom's of the world, the parting of the Red Sea, the earthquake and rending of the temple curtain at Christ's death, water turned to wine, all of these were supernatural occurances which would defy our physics, chemestry, biology, and that which we consider "natural laws." I did not challenge the supernatural and trusted that God controlled all life and existance and I did not question, (ie. clay & potter). So once again, to answer your original question: How did Jesus betray you? I would answer that if I were to describe betrayal, it would be that despite my continuous devotion to Christ, I had no more guidance, direction, relief, comfort, inspiration, or courage than without. The whole exercise was pointless. With only the promise of Heaven after death I said "enough" supernatural. I could suspend my disbelief no longer. What good is a God who's only "trick" is that he promises something to which nobody...NOBODY...in this life can honestly attest delivery? |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 11:14 AM | ||||
| Wired, No disrespect here, but your methodolgy is telling. You are attempting to find avenues for testimony and conversion for us. I did not "leave because of one course in apologetics", rather apologetics demonstrated that Christianity is based upon false premises. Of course, one apologetics course or one professor did not lead me to disbelief, that is a demeaning assertion. What did lead me to finally reject the faith of my fathers was the subsequesnt investigations that factually validated what I had learned while studying apologetics. You are trying to shift the problems with the Bible and with apologetics onto individuals and away from the real problems which are the Bible and Christian claims.
Do not try and postulate a theologcal meaning to our statements about feeling lost. I did not feel lost in the Christian sene of needing salvation. I felt lost because the society I live in and most of my family are Christian and I was the odd man out. The world-view that I believed in was demonstratively proven to be false, the things I had focused my life around were wishful thinking.
This is comparing apples to Voklswagens. No one builds their life around the belief in Santa Claus. There are not Santa Claus seminaries, people are not threatened with eternal torture for not believing in Santa Claus. Belief in Santa Claus does not require adherence to accepted doctrines, which are differing based upon which denomination of Santa Clausism one belongs to. Wired, please focus on the relevant points at hand. You claimed you could address the issues I posted. Please do so. Show me the money! //Bruce// |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 28 2005, 11:16 AM | ||
The trial & error of natural selection? |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 28 2005, 11:16 AM | ||
wired, I'm disappointed in you. You started out being (or at least seeming to be) genuinely open. You just wanted to know why people would leave Christianity. Now, I realize that many people on this board have been cruel and sarcastic. A lot of people here are still nursing wounds from their Christian days and remain bitter about Christianity - and Christians. In my opinion, lashing out at strangers is never justified. However, neither is lowering oneself to the level of one's attackers. Bruce is not the only one here who has tried to be respectful to you, but even if he were, that would not give you reason to accuse these people of being mindlessly rebellious or thinking themselves gods. You registered at this board knowing that many of its members would be hostile; you knew what you were in for. If you can't deal with this hostility without striking back with your own hostile comments, then perhaps you should find some other place to witness. Because frankly, if you can't be open-minded enough to treat us with the respect that every living creature deserves, you will not succeed in converting a single one of us. |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 11:17 AM |
| Madame, I realize people convert from one religion to another. And I have Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, JWs, etc friends and family members. And all of them truly believe what they believe. But none of them have any hope. See all of them have no idea what will happen to them when they die. Some who have a concept of heaven believe they must earn it but they have no idea how many good acts that have to do to earn it. When I tell them about Jesus and the promise of eternal life through him, they can only respond, I just can't believe that. So instead they continue their lives trying to do good things to make God happy. Yet God will never be happy because even our "good" works are motivated by our own selfish interests or good feelings. |
| Posted by: Madame M Feb 28 2005, 11:18 AM | ||||
Well, it must be God, Wired. There could never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever be any other explanation possible. Somehow, I will now miraculously make the leap that this means Christianity is true. Hallelujah!! Shandala randala mo hi la la la la la.... Once again, instincts come from our need to survive. If living organisms do not have a needs to survive, they would die out and we would not be having this conversation. Please explain why Christianity is the true expression of God and all other people in other religions throughout history have been misguided. *according to creationism time line* Why did God wait 4000 years to bring the Messiah, when the population of the earth was such and communication modes were such, that it would be impossible to reach everyone for hundreds of years and prove the story true. And why would He waste 2000 years setting up a religion, just to show 2000 years worth of people that they couldn't redeem themselves, then scratch the whole religion he set up? seems like a crazy plan to me.
So why did God allow honest people to be misled? |
| Posted by: quicksand Feb 28 2005, 11:18 AM | ||
... all due to epistmological immaturity. That's where the thinking comes in. You've not done the thought, nor the background research. Up until a few days ago you never heard of "Pascal's Wager." Evidence by the simple fact in the endless repition of the same arguments over and over again you post. Also, the evidence of the millions of religions out there is your only proof? If this is your "evidence" then you will have to Wired, retreat to an agnostic position regarding which religion to believe in. You have no way of determining which is true or not. |
| Posted by: Bruce Feb 28 2005, 11:25 AM | ||
Wired, My Great Gandfather was the oldest living and longest commissioned Southern Baptist Missionary ever. With that in mind, I have heard and even at one time used these arguments. You should consider that you are not dealing with uninformed people here, in regards to Christianity, but with former Christians, some with considerable education and experience in theology. You state that followers of other religions have no hope, because their faith is based upon orthopraxy. The Christian New Testment is not clear on how salvation is accomplished. Acording to Pauline epistle statements, it is by faith alone, which is the traditional Protestant doctrine. Other books specify that salvation is accomplished by works couple with faith; that faith is not alone adequate (namely James), which is the traditional Catholic doctrine and held by some Protestants. So perhaps you can tell us why the New Testament has seemingly contradictory and unclear statements on salvation. Better yet, I will not respond futher until you actually address the initial problems that I gave. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: wiredoutreach Feb 28 2005, 11:27 AM |
| anony~mouse, I am sorry I have disappointed you. I have been open and continue to be. I thought that is was ok to offer my own thoughts on things, as I said to Cerise I am not here to convert as born-again ExChristians are still eternally secure, so what is there to convert? But if someone tells me there is no God, or that Christ is a joke, why can I not respond? Perhaps I should ignore those who are merely being insulting, but my fleshly sinful side finds that very hard to do. Perhaps I should work on that. But I am glad to know that one point, you were not disappointed with me. |
| Posted by: ratto Feb 28 2005, 11:30 AM | ||
. . . 9) A man earnestly believes in Your Book, not through coersion or simple family tradition, but through diligent study and his own election; 10) You see him go to church and bible study each week; 11) You see him make spontaneous contributions of money, even though he has little, to support Your church and Your missionaries; 12) You see him witness Your goodness to others; 13) You see him struggle with the challenges of living in a fallen world; 14) You see him suffer illness, injury, unemployment, all the while praying to You for guidance & deliverance; 15) You see him take the time to pray to you before making any decisions about investing his time and resources in work, relationships, and recreation. 16) You sit idly by, and offer him nothing. You give him none of the direction he seeks. You give him none of the relief for which he asks. So far as he can tell, you've utterly ignored him. 17) You don't really wonder why he quit participating, do you? 18) No, you don't. |
| Posted by: anony~mouse Feb 28 2005, 11:32 AM | ||||||
Your previous comments suggest otherwise. Openness does not include approaching people with premature assumptions of why they believe what they believe, nor does it include insulting them.
For whatever reason, you're attempting to convince people to change their opinions. Nothing wrong with that; I do it often. Everyone does. But when you start insulting people who disagree with you, that's when the discussion stops and the arguing begins.
It is perfectly okay to respond, and even defend your opinions. I was talking about your comments about us believing ourselves to be gods, and various other insulting accusations and insinuations. |