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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Why all the anger? Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 7 2003, 07:23 AM I was just wondering why put so much effort in trying to disprove something that you dont believe in? Why do you all seem so worked up about it? If its all crap then why worry about it? Are you trying to prove to others that God doesnt exist, or yourselves? This website openly makes fun of christianity in a crude and harsh way and all i have to ask is why u are all so angry? Posted by: J of nothing Sep 7 2003, 08:07 AM Because IMO, it's very entertaining. Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Sep 7 2003, 08:12 AM Because it is nice change from all the devotion of the past few decades, and it is fun! Posted by: Conster74 Sep 7 2003, 10:02 AM Because we can. Now shut up. Look how much bandwidth you made me waste. Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 7 2003, 10:12 AM But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Maybe im sounding very naive about this, but this is the first time ive come across such a hatred for Christianity. Ive heard of back sliding but this is something way off the scale. There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Just say for one second that he really did die for you, wont you feel guilty when you stand before him and try to explain why you mocked him? At the moment do any of you know where u are going to spend eternity? Do u not feel restless? Im not expecting to get a serious answer but i would really appreciate it if someone would take me seriously and give me a reply without malice. God Bless Posted by: Doug2 Sep 7 2003, 10:41 AM How I felt as a christian? About the same I feel now, except now I don't have to do this to get the bible to actually fit my inerrant dogma. Christianity is really not a good drug. I recommend weaning yourself off of it asap. Peacemaker, I just spoke to the easter bunny and he is very sad that you haven't been around lately. Easter bunny is heart broken that you have rejected his loving kindness and the free chocolate easter bunny delivers every year. Won't you feel bad when you die and go see easter bunny, only to realize that you have mocked his good will all these years. Don't you feel restless without knowing where your next chocolate fix will come from? Repent while you can peacemaker. Someday you will wish you hadn't rejected his sweet, sweet chocolate. May zoroaster bring you peace. Posted by: Astos Sep 7 2003, 10:45 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 7 2003, 01:12 PM) But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Since debating is not my thing, im neither good at it and nor am I interested in it, i'll just answer your first question. Being almost 4 years ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my lord and savor and thus allowing me to be "born again", indeed I do remember the feeling I had when I was saved as it was yesterday. It was tremendous and a wonderful feeling. I do not deny that in any way. Most christians attribute that being the influence of the holy spirit, or the "holy spook" if you wanna play it mockingly. I do not feel that way anymore. Everytime I felt that way was after a moving sermon (repeated every 6-12 months) or during a weekend retreat or outing, I never felt it before or after no matter how much I prayed and gave up. I attribute to being in the presence of the holy spirit to giving in to extreme emotions, I will not debate this since I told you I am not a debater. I left christianity because I felt it to be too controling and I found many of the members to be hateful that I did not want to be associated with anymore. I never felt like I was part of the "family" no matter how hard I tried to fit in and most of the "family" did nothing to make me feel welcome. I admit, im ignorant of most thealogy and im not too familiar with apologetics, but thats not the reason I left. As for the anger, why not? Most of felt like we were lied to and we have our own evidence for that as you guys have your own evidence supporting your cause. If you're so sure that the bible is the truth, why bother debating? I doubt you'll win back any "souls" from this bunch. Posted by: Shadfox Sep 7 2003, 11:13 AM Ah, yes, Peacemaker. I remember well. I remember that emotional moment when I submitted my consciousness to the dogma. I remember being pressured up to the altar by my family. I remember wondering why God or Jesus never spoke to me directly again despite all my efforts to grow as a Christian. I still remember the fear and self loathing for not being good enough in "God's" eyes no matter how hard I tried. Plagued by apocalyptic nightmares instilled by church sermons...the irrational fears of the imaginary Satanic underground...fear of demons..fear of those who are different than me...oh, how I miss it, Peacemaker! Convert me back right now!! Posted by: fortunehooks Sep 7 2003, 01:35 PM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 7 2003, 12:12 PM) But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Maybe im sounding very naive about this, but this is the first time ive come across such a hatred for Christianity. Ive heard of back sliding but this is something way off the scale. There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Just say for one second that he really did die for you, wont you feel guilty when you stand before him and try to explain why you mocked him? At the moment do any of you know where u are going to spend eternity? Do u not feel restless? Im not expecting to get a serious answer but i would really appreciate it if someone would take me seriously and give me a reply without malice. God Bless peacemaker: i was never a xtian. i never commited myself to your particular dogma. i was influenced by christianity since birth. probaly like you parents' religion so you fall in line behind them. at the age of fifteen i realized the contradictions of the attributes of your biblegod. reading your holybook was also a great way to understand the flaws and overt lies told by human beings. do you even know about the effects of christianity since its introduction into the world? are you familiar about the dark ages? do you realize what the european explorers did to people in the world? this isn't backsliding this is removal of the comforts of religion. seriously don't put yourself into the water with sharks(us) about the historicity of jesus christ as told in the bible. if you serve jesus why won't you also serve dionysus,osiris they came before jesus. many have evidence to support the claim that the christians stole the charcteristics of these two to create your beloved jesus. why are you so interested about an afterlife. the xtians didn't make up this concept. the egyptians helped bring that concept up. why would your perfect god have to save the middle eastern people from himself. your god did a crappy job at trying to save people in your bible anyway. savior of the world who only occupies a certain region of the world, you undoubtly believe that occured. why do you think your brand of faith exceeds anyone else's in the world past or present? Posted by: Vixentrox Sep 7 2003, 03:14 PM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 7 2003, 01:12 PM) But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Maybe im sounding very naive about this, but this is the first time ive come across such a hatred for Christianity. Ive heard of back sliding but this is something way off the scale. There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Just say for one second that he really did die for you, wont you feel guilty when you stand before him and try to explain why you mocked him? At the moment do any of you know where u are going to spend eternity? Do u not feel restless? Im not expecting to get a serious answer but i would really appreciate it if someone would take me seriously and give me a reply without malice. God Bless Feel guilty when you stand before Zeuss or Ra? They are older than Jeesus. Posted by: TruthWarrior Sep 7 2003, 06:34 PM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 7 2003, 02:12 PM) But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Maybe im sounding very naive about this, but this is the first time ive come across such a hatred for Christianity. Ive heard of back sliding but this is something way off the scale. There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Just say for one second that he really did die for you, wont you feel guilty when you stand before him and try to explain why you mocked him? At the moment do any of you know where u are going to spend eternity? Do u not feel restless? Im not expecting to get a serious answer but i would really appreciate it if someone would take me seriously and give me a reply without malice. I've learned, or rather am learning, not to hate so much. As you might say, "it's the "sin" not the sinner". Christianity, and most all religions, creates alot of unnecessary man made baggage. They say you can't get right with god without the right book[s], churches, preachers, baptism[s], communions, tithing, funerals, knowing what sin is, repenting, praying, hearing, reading, preaching, etc. All these things and more I have found to be all man-made, "chasing after the wind" as it says. Man created god in his image. All these religions are is just man doing what another man tells him to do. So go ahead read your bible and do what it says, like it's some infallbile "word of god" [so says the almighty Paul]. Ha! Christianity's fruits tend to be more then just "love", but rather fear, hate, greed, egotism, ignorance, violence, etc. The degrees of that depend on what sect you are in now. At the very least, in Christianity, there is it mainly just fear of death & hell. Simpler beliefs such as deism on the other hand, has no baggage. There's a creator and that's it. Why add on to that? Are you afraid of the afterlife? Posted by: mah_jong13 Sep 7 2003, 08:14 PM I am wondering how you happened upon this site, Peacemaker. My second thought is why spend time posting your opinion here? I am here because I believe that Jesus of Nazereth is a compilation of several pagan people, or gods, or ideas. It took me a long time to break free of the odd christian beliefs that I was raised with. I need the thinking and moral support of the wild and wonderful ex-christians (and deists too) that post here. I am here because I honestly see christianity as evil and a detriment to my freedom. I know this is hard for you to understand. I asked many questions of christianity throughout the years. My hopes of ever getting real answers were finally dashed and I realized I no longer believed. I don't look for answers anymore. I just live the best life I can. I believe in 'to thine own self be true.' I can honestly say that, for the most part, christians themselves didn't harm me. What did harm me are many of the christian beliefs. The christian god is reprehensible, vindictive and intolerant. Those are the good qualities. The belief and practice of requiring blood sacrifice to ward off the anger of the gods is disgusting and superstitious. The whole religion is built upon this ancient ritual. I am here because I am enjoyinging the freedom to think, feel, be angry, and spout off if I want to, and not fear the flames of love from your god. On this site I don't care who disagrees with me, I don't care if anyone likes me. I feel fortunate to have found a website that I can identify with. I am grateful that I was not born in another era where I would not be allowed to talk freely about my disbelief in the god of the bible. Finally, this site makes me laugh all the time. I seem serious when I write, I suppose, but there is never a time that I visit this site that I don't leave with at least one good laugh. What the heck does 'god bless' mean? MJ Posted by: gecko Sep 7 2003, 10:31 PM Why all the anger? Peacemaker, I did a double-take when I saw the name of this thread because there is one with the exact same title on the Christian board I hang out at mosty. There, a Christian is asking other Christians why so many people seem at each others throats these days. And there are people leaving because of it. Long time posters who have gotten fed up with all the nastiness and cruelty. I haven't been on this board that long, but from what I have observed, the posters here simply speak their mind freely. I am sure that is shocking to you, but I wonder..... Have you ever seen how Christians post to pagans on their own boards, or even to each other sometimes? You might be surprised at the viciousness with which they are capable of posting. Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 01:01 AM I came upon this site while randomly looking up Christian websites. Im really curious about some of the things tha ppl have said. Is the reason u all find my God to be evil and vindictive because he condemns non christians to Hell? If not, what is the reason? Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Sep 8 2003, 01:15 AM umm, duh... Read the Bible. He is always getting pissed to the max and then losing his temper in a massive way. Condemning parents to eat their own children, giving men permission to rape conquered virgins, killing thousands in disease because of a census, the list goes on and on. The culmination is the eternal torture of billions of people because of temporal rejection of his love. Hell does have fury like a savior scorned! Posted by: Vixentrox Sep 8 2003, 04:41 AM Oh oh...and one of my favorites...ordering a bear to rip some kids to peices for making fun of god's old bald prophet. Yeah....the penalty really fits the crime there. Diabolical god indeed. Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 05:49 AM QUOTE There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Actually, there is no contemporary secular or scriptural evidence of the existance of Jesus. Although many different Roman and Jewish historians reported happenings in that area of the empire, no mention is made of Jesus. If he had been doing all of these marvelous miracles and had such a massive following, it seems that they would have at least mentioned him. The so-called gospels were written (as the current consenus of biblical scholars, including the Christ Cultists scholars, indicates), after the destruction of the temple. The first "gospel" was Mark, believed to have been written between 80 and 85CE (and not by anyone named Mark), followed by the other three with John probably written sometime before 120CE. Any "evidence" they present is at best circumstancial and definitely 3rd-4th hand information. QUOTE Just say for one second that he really did die for you, wont you feel guilty when you stand before him and try to explain why you mocked him? The serious answer to that is a resounding NO! Even if "he really did die for me", that is not proof that he was anything more than a crazy man that thought he was God's son (something that he never really claimed). I do not mock him, I doubt his existance and his divinity (as any rational human being would, were they not raised in a heavily Christ Cult influenced culture.) QUOTE At the moment do any of you know where u are going to spend eternity? Do u not feel restless? We probably have no more idea than you of the truth of an "eternity", all you have is words written on the pages of an antique and obsolete superhero comicbook (and a poorly translated superhuman comicbook at that). No, I do not feel restless, I have no desire for eternal life, I would find Heaven too boring with it mind-numbing praise singing to a egotistical God and even though the company in Hell would be better, I have no desire to extent my existance beyond the present earthly limit. Is that a good enough answer? Now as to why there is anger - I have never been a cultist, but have (as a Deist) be victimized by good Christ Cultists all of my life....I do not want to hear you bull manure, I do not ask you to present it to me and I AM GETTING TIRED OF YOU ASSES CONSTANTLY INVADING THE WEBSITE TO VANDALIZE IT WITH YOUR MESSAGE, THAT WE DON'T WANT !!! Posted by: zarathustra Sep 8 2003, 07:00 AM I, for one, felt anger after I left xtianity for several reasons. First I was angry at the warped dogma that is taught, for the mind and wallet-controlling ministrations of religious leaders. I was angered by the way preachers manufacture doctrines out of thin air to support their personal views as well as their sheep. Bahhh.. I was angered at the idea that these people claimed to represent a loving god yet contained not one ounce of true charity in them. Their designs were to build bigger churches and offerings for white, middle-class Americans. Screw the rest of the world. Not one cent of church money went to actually doing something positive for the community at large. I was angered at myself for the thousands of dollars that I had contributed to the power junkies. Angered at the years of guilt I felt for not giving more. Angered at the some 20 hours I gave of my time each week to promote their agenda and indoctrinate people to the lying propaganda of the bible and church. Mostly I was angry at myself, as you can tell from the above. Angered that in all of my life I never truly set out to read the bible and when I finally did it completely fell apart, unable to support the arguments of the church that claim it is a divinely inspired book, literally god-breathed. No god that has the characteristics attributed to him that xtianity does could craft such a non-sensical and historically inaccurate tome. Yeah, I used to be angry at xtians. Then I felt pity for them. Now I just ignore them. And, yes, I remember that feeling of being first saved. But I remember the feeling of dirtiness that xtians convinced me was inside of me. They made me evil and then delivered me from evil. Go figure. You have to make people sick in order for them to buy snake oil. Looking back I feel silly about it all, but then, I am human and somewhat gullible. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I won't get fooled again. Posted by: jesus_freak Sep 8 2003, 07:43 AM QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Sep 8 2003, 08:49 AM) QUOTE There is historic evidence that a man known as Jesus Christ did in fact live and that he was crucified. Actually, there is no contemporary secular or scriptural evidence of the existance of Jesus. Although many different Roman and Jewish historians reported happenings in that area of the empire, no mention is made of Jesus. If he had been doing all of these marvelous miracles and had such a massive following, it seems that they would have at least mentioned him. The so-called gospels were written (as the current consenus of biblical scholars, including the Christ Cultists scholars, indicates), after the destruction of the temple. The first "gospel" was Mark, believed to have been written between 80 and 85CE (and not by anyone named Mark), followed by the other three with John probably written sometime before 120CE. Any "evidence" they present is at best circumstancial and definitely 3rd-4th hand information. Come now cd, We don't need to go down this road again (maybe you weren't in on those discussions weeks ago). The historical Jesus isn't questioned by mainstream skeptic Biblical Scholars and archeologists. We've talked about many extra-Biblical sources that document the historical Jesus. Even the fringe folks like the Jesus Seminar accept the basic facts of the life of Jesus. Yes we can debate the dates of sources and how much of the accounts are fact/fiction, but the basics are well attested to. About heaven being boring. Do really think an infinite God would bore you in heaven ? Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Sep 8 2003, 07:48 AM Actually, outside the bible there is not one contemporary historic secular reference to Jesus at all - anywhere. There are a few veiled references to a cult of people who follow some Christus, which may or may not refer to Christians, but nothing directly about a man named Jesus, called the Christ. Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM QUOTE (zarathustra @ Sep 8 2003, 07:00 AM) And, yes, I remember that feeling of being first saved. But I remember the feeling of dirtiness that xtians convinced me was inside of me. They made me evil and then delivered me from evil. Go figure. You have to make people sick in order for them to buy snake oil. Looking back I feel silly about it all, but then, I am human and somewhat gullible. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I won't get fooled again. so u let the mistakes and influences of others affect ur faith? alot of ppl here talk about what other christians do wrong and how they are hypocrites and the mistakes they make. But yet the point of being a christian is acknowledging that u do make mistakes and that u are a sinner. Every one, whether thry are a Christian or not do wrong things and muck up. And christians may have led you to believe that there was dirt inside u, but im sure they should have been aware that there is just as much dirt in them. It takes a sinner to know one Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 08:07 AM Thank you Webmaster! Yes JF, I recall our discussions and how you kept trying to bring in information (in typical apologetic style) that is 30 to 70 years out of date and ignored the most recent information, even though much of it comes from Israeli and Christ Cult Archeologists. The Israeli want to prove the bible true, because it shows their "right" to the holy land and for them to show that the bible is wrong, must really hurt. Now if you have RECENT information on the bibles validity, please submit it! Posted by: zarathustra Sep 8 2003, 08:13 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM) so u let the mistakes and influences of others affect ur faith? alot of ppl here talk about what other christians do wrong and how they are hypocrites and the mistakes they make. But yet the point of being a christian is acknowledging that u do make mistakes and that u are a sinner. Every one, whether thry are a Christian or not do wrong things and muck up. And christians may have led you to believe that there was dirt inside u, but im sure they should have been aware that there is just as much dirt in them. It takes a sinner to know one To sum it a little differently, I find no evidence within the church or designs of christianity, or any other religion for that matter, that compels me to believe that there is a personal god in any dimension of existence. The holy books of the world are the designs of ancient superstitious people who were merely ignorant of the mechanics of the natural world. Sadly the power of these instruments to control the masses was quickly incorporated into the infrastructure of early governments to provide authority to those that ruled. Even the Shaman in primitive tribes carried more authority than tribal chieftans. They were able to hear the messages from gods that would dictate the movements of the tribe. I patiently wait upon any message that a personal god would wish for me to have. The bible, the qu'ran, the book of mormon, the book of the dead, the new world bible, etc. etc. fail to pass the test of a personal transmission from a god to anyone. But, hey..it does take a sinner to know one. I stopped being any form of that club when I left christianity. Shaloami Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 08:55 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 04:01 AM) Is the reason u all find my God to be evil and vindictive because he condemns non christians to Hell? If not, what is the reason? I "hate" Christianity as a whole because of the many years I believed the lie and for the deceptions that still have my family in its grasp. As for why I find your god to be evil and vindictive, just read the old testament. If anyone has an anger management problem it's yahweh. The atrocities of Hitler, Pol Pot and Stalin pale in comparison to the bloodthirst of this character. If he were real, any decent human being would have to hate him. Only sick freaks would want to worship him. Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 09:08 AM Yes, there are things in the Old Testament that are shocking, but God had his reasons and there are things that i dont understand, but if i did then i would be on the same level as God. For those deists, why does ur god allow natural disasters to kill his ppl? Why has he not been in contact with u and why does he not give u proof of his existence? Also many of the caes that u have pointed out are taken out of context. Have u ever heard of the Nephilim- Sons of God ie fallen angels- they were evil and that is why God allowed them to be slaugthered. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 09:13 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 12:08 PM) Yes, there are things in the Old Testament that are shocking, but God had his reasons and there are things that i dont understand, but if i did then i would be on the same level as God. For those deists, why does ur god allow natural disasters to kill his ppl? Why has he not been in contact with u and why does he not give u proof of his existence? Also many of the caes that u have pointed out are taken out of context. Have u ever heard of the Nephilim- Sons of God ie fallen angels- they were evil and that is why God allowed them to be slaugthered. And I'm sure Hitler had his reasons that none of us fully understand. That doesn't make it right or worthy of respect and worship. Following your line of reasoning, there's nothing yahweh could do that you would condemn. "God did it so it must be ok". What's your source for determining that the Nephilim were fallen angels? Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 09:25 AM QUOTE but God had his reasons and there are things that i dont understand, but if i did then i would be on the same level as God Typical Christ Cultist cop out.....If you are going to defend something, have a good defense - the typical one here is "But they were evil!", which in itself is very weak, but a much better defense than your pathetic effort. QUOTE For those deists, why does ur god allow natural disasters to kill his ppl? Why has he not been in contact with u and why does he not give u proof of his existence? There is simple answer to that, We don't know and we don't care. We are not fearful little simpletons that need the comfort of the presense of a deity (nonexistent or not). You must remember, Deist sbelieve in a Creator, but do not worship him. We feel that we can ascertain his nature through the study of his creation and we give him our love as he gives his to us. We are granted true free will and exercise that free will, asking nothing of the Creator, just as he asks nothing of us. Why should he spare us from natural disasters, when he does not spare his other creatures from them. Since we do not believe that man was created in the image of the Creator, why should he favor us over any other of his creatures and spare us from the natural disasters that affect them also? Posted by: Guest Sep 8 2003, 09:30 AM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Sep 8 2003, 09:13 AM) QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 12:08 PM) Yes, there are things in the Old Testament that are shocking, but God had his reasons and there are things that i dont understand, but if i did then i would be on the same level as God. For those deists, why does ur god allow natural disasters to kill his ppl? Why has he not been in contact with u and why does he not give u proof of his existence? Also many of the caes that u have pointed out are taken out of context. Have u ever heard of the Nephilim- Sons of God ie fallen angels- they were evil and that is why God allowed them to be slaugthered. And I'm sure Hitler had his reasons that none of us fully understand. That doesn't make it right or worthy of respect and worship. Following your line of reasoning, there's nothing yahweh could do that you would condemn. "God did it so it must be ok". What's your source for determining that the Nephilim were fallen angels? Yes but Hitler was a mere human not a God. And in Exodus 6:4 the Nephilim are refered to as as Sons of God. Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 09:31 AM In Job 2 the angels who come with Satan in the footnote are called Sons of God Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 09:34 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 12:31 PM) In Job 2 the angels who come with Satan in the footnote are called Sons of God Isn't Jesus also called a son of god? What does that make him? Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 09:45 AM There is a difference, he is the Son of God, no plural. But i will openly admit that there are things that i do not fully understand. Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 09:54 AM QUOTE There is a difference, he is the Son of God, no plural. Either he is the only son of god, or there are many sons of god. There is no wiggle room on that! Your bible is errant and contradictory and this is one place that it is (You might also check Job, where it is stated that the "Sons of God" gathered before him. QUOTE . But i will openly admit that there are things that i do not fully understand. It is simply that there is no truth in the Christ Cult or the bible, there is no need to understand gobblygook! Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 10:03 AM QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Sep 8 2003, 09:54 AM) (You might also check Job, where it is stated that the "Sons of God" gathered before him. No it says in the foot notes that they were sons of God but they were angels. But it does not contradict because the fallen angels had intercoarse with humans gensis 6:4, therefore they were sons of angels, which comes from God. Jesus was the Son of God in the same way, but the fallen angels when they had the intercoarse produced evil offspring, the Nephilimm which God orders to be killed. This however is my interpretation, with evidence, but i could be wrong. But i can admit it. Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 10:06 AM Bull shit, your "savior" himself said that there was no sex (meaning male or female) in heaven. In order to be sons, you must be male, angels have no sex, therefore they can only be "children" of god. This is the typical Christ Cult answer, I was waiting for it...Sorry no seegar! Posted by: txmex2003 Sep 8 2003, 10:19 AM Peacemaker, why did god have to wipe out the Nep. a second time? I thought that is why he sent the flood of Noah's day. Had to wipe all everything because of these dudes, but they are still around when the Hebrews reach the Promised Land. Hmm, what is your apoligetic answer for that? Posted by: Peacemaker_guest Sep 8 2003, 10:23 AM He was wiping out the off spring- the Nephilim, but as the sons of God (fallen angels) are immortal they can not be destroyed and that is how they come back. And to Deist, this angels were fallen, followers of Satan (found in Job) therefore they broke the rules. Posted by: txmex2003 Sep 8 2003, 10:31 AM God could have saved a lot of suffering he if he had made his angels without penises then. YOu think a guy who could see everything into the future would have prevented this. Oh yeah, I hope satan does double dog dare god about what you would do if satan had his way with you, like he did JOb. Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 10:32 AM QUOTE 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them Hmmmm, now why would fallen angels be gathering before the Lord?????? Seems like you are trying to pull the wool over our eyes. Now Just in case you were fooled by the inclusion of Satan QUOTE 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. Doesn't sound to me like the sons of god were with Satan, sounds like he was a party crasher....... QUOTE 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. Here it is again, Satan crashing a family get-together! Once again, no seegar! Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 8 2003, 10:34 AM Thats ur view, but why then did the angels come? Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 10:39 AM What angels? There were no angels mentioned in those verses...Sorry, I don't play apologetics games...It did not say angels, it said sons of god, the bible (you say) is inerrant, therefore Jesus is not the only son, therefore your whole house of cards is collapsing! Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 8 2003, 10:47 AM Yes there were angels mentioned in the verses in Job, therefore it is u who is getting confused my friend. It seems that u dont know the Bible well enough to condemn it Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 8 2003, 10:53 AM QUOTE 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them QUOTE Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. Where are the angels? The debate here did not concern angels, but the sons of god! Stay on the subject, I know most of your apologetic type ploys and don't often fall for them! Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 10:54 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 12:45 PM) But i will openly admit that there are things that i do not fully understand. Peacemaker, I admire you for this admission. I hope you'll take it further and take a critical look at your bible. That's what started me on the road to the truth. Apply the same critical view of the bible that you would likely use for the koran, book of mormon, etc. Use your head and really see what's in the bible. Don't just accept what it says and try to fit it to what you already believe. It will be an eye-opening experience. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 8 2003, 10:58 AM But its not only the bible. If i were illiterate i would still believe. Its a relationship and it is two way. I am pretty certain that i am not a mad women therefore the communication i have with God is real. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 11:08 AM Peacemaker, It's a well-known fact that people from ALL religious faiths feel like they are listening to a "small inner voice" that they interpret to be their god. I recommend you read a very good book that's just come out titled "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. It's the true story of two mormons who commit murder because they honestly believe that god has instructed them to do so. It actually has several more instances of mormons who do things that would be considered strange and unlawful by the rest of society based on their communications with god. I found it to be good since I'm from a Southern Baptist background, and so I never had any belief that the mormons knew what they were talking about anyway! It really shows how sincere and honest people can do horrible things because they think they are getting instructions straight from a supreme being. And it's hard for christians to say they're crazy because you all believe that god has told people to do horrendous things in the past. If he could do it back then, what's to stop him from telling someone to kill others today? Sorry for the long-winded review, but I really think you'll get something out of this book. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 8 2003, 11:09 AM Texas why did u stop being a Christian? Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 11:25 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker @ Sep 8 2003, 02:09 PM) Texas why did u stop being a Christian? I was a southern baptist all my life (we went to church four or five times a week). I was "saved" when I was nine, and then asked Jesus to be my personal savior again around 15 when I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing at the young age of 9. I certainly didn't want to end up in hell! I witnessed door to door and in school and was responsible for several others being "saved". As I reached my late teenage years I began to question the contradictions and errors in the bible. I had always been taught that the bible was perfect and the only true source of knowledge about god. I was placated by the answers given to me in the beginning, but after awhile, I felt like these answers were more excuses and suppositions rather than valid responses to my concerns. I also wondered why, if god was speaking to us personally, there were so many disagreements between christian denominations, much less between the major religions of the world. It seemed like a few good baptists and methodists and church of christ folks could just have a prayer session and have god clear up all the misunderstandings. But that never seemed to happen. I also wondered why a god who loved everyone in the world would make himself so scarce. If I had children who were on their way to eternal punishment I think I might put in a personal appearance - not just leave documents that are thousands of years old and that have been manipulated through the ages by people with their own agendas. I finally reached the conclusion that I couldn't place my belief in something that couldn't be proven any more than judaism or islam or mormonism. Each religion insists that you just have to "have faith". But I knew that I needed more than that - I need to be able to use my head and senses to determine what is right. After about three years of heavy study of the bible and other religions I'm at the place I am now - I'm an atheist in the sense that I haven't seen proof of any god or other supernatural being. Until the proof is given, it only makes sense to withhold belief. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 8 2003, 11:40 AM My mum isnt a Christian and it is something that pains me to see, but to have had ur faith then lost it must have been hard. Do u think im stupid in believing a God that according to u doesnt exist? Im 17 and my parents told me it was just a phase i was going through and ive proved them wrong. I know from the depths of myself that my God is real and true. If he had given us all the evidence that we needed then he may have well just created us already loving him. But he wanted to know that we loved him because we made the choice, not because him made us to. I will admit that i am probably the worst Christian. My devotions are scarse and i go through frequent periods of not praying to God or reading his word and then i blame Him. I constantly question whether he is real or not, but so do many of the Psalmists. He promised to always be with us, but not always to show his face. If he were constantly there then we would be like his puppets. But i dtrongly still believe that he is calling for u to come back and the proof of it is in this converstation. God talks through many things and i believe that he could be trying to reach u. It wasnt a coincidence that i came upon this site. I ask u to do one thing, and i know that u dont know me and may feel annoyed at being 'preached' at by a teenager, but please would u read the book, Rachel's Tears. Please, just try one more thing. <>< Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 8 2003, 12:10 PM QUOTE (Peacemaker @ Sep 8 2003, 02:40 PM) to have had ur faith then lost it must have been hard. Do u think im stupid in believing a God that according to u doesnt exist? I know from the depths of myself that my God is real and true. He promised to always be with us, but not always to show his face. If he were constantly there then we would be like his puppets. But i dtrongly still believe that he is calling for u to come back and the proof of it is in this converstation. I ask u to do one thing, and i know that u dont know me and may feel annoyed at being 'preached' at by a teenager, but please would u read the book, Rachel's Tears. Please, just try one more thing. <>< Peacemaker, You raise many points, I'll do my best to answer them... 1. Losing my faith wasn't hard - I've never felt freer. It's an amazing freedom to know that you alone are responsible for your thoughts and actions. Once you stop beating yourself up over sins committed by Adam and Eve and realize that you're just a human who has duties and responsibilities to other humans it becomes much easier to understand your place in the world. 2. I don't think you're stupid for believing in god. Most of the world has some sort of religious belief - many people think it's human nature to a comforting belief that your're not on your own and you'll end up somewhere nice when you die. Unfortunately, wanting to be comforted doesn't make it true. 3. You say that you know from the depths of yourself that god is real and true. That also isn't enough. The pilots who flew jets into the World Trade Centers knew in the depths of their hearts that their god was true - they believed it so much that they were willing to die for their beliefs. Suicide bombers have the same deep beliefs, yet I'm sure that you'd argue with them that what they are feeling is not god. What you feel is no different from what they feel - you are listening to yourself. I have two christian friends who were dating each other. They each are very devout christians and are very involved in their church. They have been praying to god about getting married. One of them is certain that god is telling him that they should wait. The other says that god has told her that now is the time. They can't both be right. Either god is teasing one of them, or he doesn't exist. Without proof, reason says you must accept that he doesn't exist. 4. It just doesn't make sense to say that god will be with us, but not show himself to us. Don't you see that this is the reason there is so much disagreement in religions. You're basically saying that god is there, but even though he sees how messy religion has become with so many opposite opinions, he's going to let us figure it out for ourselves. My viewpoint is that there are so many religions because there is no god, and everyone is either following a specific belief blindly, or worse, using religion to advance their own wealth or power. 5. I also can't agree with your assessments that if god were constantly with us we'd be like puppets. Do you feel like a puppet when you're constantly around your friends and family? (If you do, I'd suggest seeking counseling, and I'm not trying to be mean-spirited when I say that). 6. It's funny that you feel that this conversation is proof that god is trying to call me back to him. Actually, I feel like the reason we're having this conversation is that our webmaster knew that people like you who are curious and questioning would use a search engine or follow a link and come across this site. Someone like me would want to spend time talking with you, and maybe you'd progress a little farther toward reason and away from blind faith. It's not a coincidence or something a god did - it's something some caring (but slightly angry) non-believers set up to reach out to people like you. 7. I'll read the book you suggested once I hear back from you that you've read "Under the Banner of Heaven". Swear to yahweh. Posted by: td Sep 8 2003, 12:10 PM Real quick, just a 'hit and run fundie' posting here. LOL! Good question, Peacemaker. I know what it's like to be angry at God. I have gone back and forth in my relationship with him more than a few times. I've been dealt some rather bad hands in my life and have had a lot of Christians screw me over. Ive been disillusioned by charlatan preachers, had Christians treat me like gum on their shoe, and wondered why God had completely forgotten and rejected me. It has been rough, it has been ugly, and it doesnt usually make sense either. I've also wanted to lash out at Christians. Even wanted to take a few down with me. After 23 years as a believer, (accepted Jesus at age 23, do the math), He has restored all I have ever lost, improved my overall condition and made His presence even more real than before. It has taken serious study and assimilation of His Word, seeking Him day after day, working through the tough times. As a result, I am much stronger and firm than I ever could have been without the trials and tribulations. There are still some serious challenges ahead of me, but I dont blame God, the President, the Pope or my neighbor one bit for these. Not all my questions are answered, but Im not going to throw a tantrum and blame Him. Just so you all know, you aren't the only ones angry at God. But God is faithful, we are not. td Posted by: gecko Sep 8 2003, 12:12 PM QUOTE (Peacemaker_guest @ Sep 8 2003, 07:51 AM) It takes a sinner to know one Ahhh, but the thing is YOU don't know me. Nor do all those "sinning" little Christians who attempt to use their own guilt about their own life to define my thought, or beliefs, or experiences, or relationhship with God, the All That Is. They run to scripture to look up and find what they think supports what they believe about non-Christians, or even their brothers and sisters for that matter. The ironic thing is that much of the time, what they post describes the very behavior they are exhibiting. It's the old argument, "this passage applies to everyone I want it to but me." Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Sep 8 2003, 12:29 PM Peacemaker, As one who has long ago passed his 17th birthday, let me assure you that you are going through a phase. In fact, you will find that there are many more phases to go through, if you live long enough. I'm going through the mid-life "crises" phase now, as my body shows aches and pains I never had before. As a human being, you never completely "arrive." There is always growth, learning, discovering, etc. Oh yes, you are going through a phase, and in a few years, you'll understand. Posted by: gecko Sep 8 2003, 06:08 PM QUOTE (WebMaster @ Sep 8 2003, 12:29 PM) I'm going through the mid-life "crises" phase now, as my body shows aches and pains I never had before. Let's hope you are spared the emotional ones and the turn your life upside down, all around, shake your damn foundations, slap you on the wall kinda shit!! Yeah I know the religious transformation was just about there, but fuck.....follow it up with the personal business, and hell... you could easily slip back under and think the wrath of God is after your ass!! Ha, haa... by God I passed the test!!!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 9 2003, 01:40 AM QUOTE (WebMaster @ Sep 8 2003, 12:29 PM) Peacemaker, As one who has long ago passed his 17th birthday, let me assure you that you are going through a phase. In fact, you will find that there are many more phases to go through, if you live long enough. I'm going through the mid-life "crises" phase now, as my body shows aches and pains I never had before. As a human being, you never completely "arrive." There is always growth, learning, discovering, etc. Oh yes, you are going through a phase, and in a few years, you'll understand. I can assure its not a phase and u have said exactly what my parents said to me nearly three years ago. And in 3 years time i will still be a Christians. Its no longer a choice, its part of who i am, like my arm or leg and as much as i dont dont want to lose a limb, id rather than lose my faith. Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Sep 9 2003, 01:49 AM I became a Christian at the age of 11 and finally left it at 40. Some phases are longer than others. Have a nice day. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 9 2003, 01:56 AM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Sep 8 2003, 12:10 PM) QUOTE (Peacemaker @ Sep 8 2003, 02:40 PM) to have had ur faith then lost it must have been hard. Do u think im stupid in believing a God that according to u doesnt exist? I know from the depths of myself that my God is real and true. He promised to always be with us, but not always to show his face. If he were constantly there then we would be like his puppets. But i dtrongly still believe that he is calling for u to come back and the proof of it is in this converstation. I ask u to do one thing, and i know that u dont know me and may feel annoyed at being 'preached' at by a teenager, but please would u read the book, Rachel's Tears. Please, just try one more thing. <>< Peacemaker, You raise many points, I'll do my best to answer them... 1. Losing my faith wasn't hard - I've never felt freer. It's an amazing freedom to know that you alone are responsible for your thoughts and actions. Once you stop beating yourself up over sins committed by Adam and Eve and realize that you're just a human who has duties and responsibilities to other humans it becomes much easier to understand your place in the world. 2. I don't think you're stupid for believing in god. Most of the world has some sort of religious belief - many people think it's human nature to a comforting belief that your're not on your own and you'll end up somewhere nice when you die. Unfortunately, wanting to be comforted doesn't make it true. 3. You say that you know from the depths of yourself that god is real and true. That also isn't enough. The pilots who flew jets into the World Trade Centers knew in the depths of their hearts that their god was true - they believed it so much that they were willing to die for their beliefs. Suicide bombers have the same deep beliefs, yet I'm sure that you'd argue with them that what they are feeling is not god. What you feel is no different from what they feel - you are listening to yourself. I have two christian friends who were dating each other. They each are very devout christians and are very involved in their church. They have been praying to god about getting married. One of them is certain that god is telling him that they should wait. The other says that god has told her that now is the time. They can't both be right. Either god is teasing one of them, or he doesn't exist. Without proof, reason says you must accept that he doesn't exist. 4. It just doesn't make sense to say that god will be with us, but not show himself to us. Don't you see that this is the reason there is so much disagreement in religions. You're basically saying that god is there, but even though he sees how messy religion has become with so many opposite opinions, he's going to let us figure it out for ourselves. My viewpoint is that there are so many religions because there is no god, and everyone is either following a specific belief blindly, or worse, using religion to advance their own wealth or power. 5. I also can't agree with your assessments that if god were constantly with us we'd be like puppets. Do you feel like a puppet when you're constantly around your friends and family? (If you do, I'd suggest seeking counseling, and I'm not trying to be mean-spirited when I say that). 6. It's funny that you feel that this conversation is proof that god is trying to call me back to him. Actually, I feel like the reason we're having this conversation is that our webmaster knew that people like you who are curious and questioning would use a search engine or follow a link and come across this site. Someone like me would want to spend time talking with you, and maybe you'd progress a little farther toward reason and away from blind faith. It's not a coincidence or something a god did - it's something some caring (but slightly angry) non-believers set up to reach out to people like you. 7. I'll read the book you suggested once I hear back from you that you've read "Under the Banner of Heaven". Swear to yahweh. Texas, You said that losing ur faith gave u freedom, and that is something that many ppl describe their faith as, a cage, something that prevents them doing what they want. Yes, i will admit that the Bible is full of rules, but dont u see the effects that happen when they arent followed. Take for example sex before marriage. If young ppl would wait there would be less unwanted pregnancies, less single mothers, less abortions, less sexually transmitted diseases if we only had one partner, and less emotional hurt. In following the rules, and not doing what u want, God gives u the freedom to be happy and safe. Yes, u said that it is human nature to look for a God. And i believe that even now, despite not being a Christian that u have a hobby or interest that u devote alot of ur time to. A 'god-like' figure that u give time, energy and money to. But it does make sense to say that God will be with us but not show himself to us. There are times when he is there, right bang in ur face, but there are others when it seems as though he has disappeared. If he were contantly in our faces, determining our every move then he may as well have made an army of robbots. He let u make u ur own mind, or else u would have been trapped in a faith where ur heart is no longer believing in. And i wasnt looking for a site that could desuade me from my faith, but i will read the book that u suggested. And u have my word, as long as u read Rachel's Tears. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Sep 9 2003, 05:43 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker @ Sep 9 2003, 04:56 AM) You said that losing ur faith gave u freedom, and that is something that many ppl describe their faith as, a cage, something that prevents them doing what they want. Yes, i will admit that the Bible is full of rules, but dont u see the effects that happen when they arent followed. Take for example sex before marriage. If young ppl would wait there would be less unwanted pregnancies, less single mothers, less abortions, less sexually transmitted diseases if we only had one partner, and less emotional hurt. In following the rules, and not doing what u want, God gives u the freedom to be happy and safe. Yes, u said that it is human nature to look for a God. And i believe that even now, despite not being a Christian that u have a hobby or interest that u devote alot of ur time to. A 'god-like' figure that u give time, energy and money to. But it does make sense to say that God will be with us but not show himself to us. There are times when he is there, right bang in ur face, but there are others when it seems as though he has disappeared. If he were contantly in our faces, determining our every move then he may as well have made an army of robbots. He let u make u ur own mind, or else u would have been trapped in a faith where ur heart is no longer believing in. And i wasnt looking for a site that could desuade me from my faith, but i will read the book that u suggested. And u have my word, as long as u read Rachel's Tears. Peacemaker, It's a common misconception that aethists (or other people who have rejected christianity) have done so because they don't like all the rules. Nothing could be further from the truth. I happen to agree with your assessment that people could save themselves pain and suffering if they were more mature about sex. However, this is based on reason and human understanding, not a set of rules that was handed down from jewish people who lived thousands of years ago. In fact, I'm sure you don't even follow all the sex rules in the bible because you think they are foolish. Take a look at Deuteronomy 22:20-21 -20 "If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you." This wonderful passage says a non-virgin bride must be killed. I'm betting you think this rule no longer applies. And of course, the bible in its wisdom doesn't provide the same punishment for a non-virgin groom. I'll guarantee that there are hundreds of rules from the old and new testament that you don't follow because they simply don't make sense. It's not just that there are many rules in the bible that are stupid and not worth following. There are many rules that I have placed on myself (and our modern societies have enacted as laws) that aren't found in the bible. For example, the bible is obviously in favor of slavery. We know today that's a horrible thing. The bible isn't very hard on rapists, and in some instances, the "good guys" in the bible send out their own women to be raped. Genocide is ordered by god many times in the bible - today we're smarter than that and civilized societies try to prevent it. Women are given horrible treatment all through the bible - treated as men's possessions and worse. I, on the other hand hold myself to a higher standard and believe that women are equal to men. As a women yourself, you should be shocked at the status of women in the bible. So, don't try to tell me that I'm no longer a christian because I don't like rule. I think rules (personal and societal) are very necessary. They just must be based on reason, not on the fear of punishment from an invisible creature that doesn't exist. Come on Peacemaker, use you HEAD not your fear. You also make another common anti-atheist claim that I've replaced yahweh with a different god (that of being an atheist if I understand you correctly). Well, of couse most humans devote their efforts, time and money to some causes unless the are comotose. The difference in my activities and your are that mine are based in reason and devoted to humanity. Yours are based in blind faith and devoted to a fictional character that won't make himself visible to you because he can't - he doesn't exist. You say sometimes he is right there in our face. That's never happened to me or to anyone I know. If yahweh wants to speak to me FACE TO FACE I would certainly be willing to listen. Posted by: nightbreeze Sep 9 2003, 05:51 AM QUOTE But those of you who were Christians can you not remember how you felt when u were saved? Nope, can't remember that because I NEVER felt secure in gawd's love. Never. My experience with xianity has been only guilt and fear. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 9 2003, 05:55 AM All ur arguements are based on the old testament- not on the new covenant that came with Jesus. Yes, God acted in strange ways that i do not fully understand (as i have already admitted) but many of ur arguements are out of context. And what do u think my fear is? Going to hell? My fear is not being with the person i love the most. And that is not sentimental love. Dont u think that ive doubted myself? That other Christians have not doubted? Nobody on this earth was there at the beginning of the world, so many things we have guess and piece together. Even science doesnt have all the anwsers. Where did the first atoms originate from? Where did the atmosphere come from? You may have tangible evidence in science, but u dont have all the answers. An exmaple of this is the feeble arguements that humans do not have an afterlife, and therefore no real reason to be alive. Personally i take it as an insult to the human race for we are worth far more than that. Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 9 2003, 06:54 AM QUOTE An exmaple of this is the feeble arguements that humans do not have an afterlife, and therefore no real reason to be alive. While as a Deist, I recognize the distinct possibility of an afterlife, I see no empirical evidence (much less proof) that there is in fact anything remotely resembling an afterlife. Even if there was an afterlife, the probability of it being the one that Christ Cultist tout, is extremely low. Remember only you were the one that could see no reason to be alive without your pathetic little Jesus crutch. We all were trying to show you how beautiful life is, and not to count on some la-la-pie-in-the-sky promises of what might be! QUOTE Personally i take it as an insult to the human race for we are worth far more than that. Personally I take it as an insult that Christ Cult sells mankind so short and expect him to pay for sins that he individually never committed (as if there were a Garden of Eden), after the same God said that the son was not held accountable for the father's sins! Pathetic!!! Posted by: TruthWarrior Sep 9 2003, 07:02 AM QUOTE (Peacemaker @ Sep 9 2003, 05:56 AM) Take for example sex before marriage. If young ppl would wait there would be less unwanted pregnancies, less single mothers, less abortions, less sexually transmitted diseases if we only had one partner, and less emotional hurt. In following the rules, and not doing what u want, God gives u the freedom to be happy and safe. So married people don't have unwanted pregnacies? People can get divorced too which leads to single mothers. Marriage is overrated. It is just a pretty ceremony with pretty rings and a pretty license by the government. But other then that fluff it's the same as any unmarried relationship. When confronted with the abortion issue in my life I saw it more as a matter of taking responsiblity for one's actions. It has nothing to do with religion, unless you want to insert alot of unnecessary emotionalism into it. Christianity doesn't own morality. Posted by: Peacemaker Sep 9 2003, 07:11 AM QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Sep 9 2003, 06:54 AM) Personally I take it as an insult that Christ Cult sells mankind so short and expect him to pay for sins that he individually never committed (as if there were a Garden of Eden), after the same God said that the son was not held accountable for the father's sins! Pathetic!!! So does that mean ur perfect? That u never do wrong things? For that is what sin is! Posted by: Consummate Deist Sep 9 2003, 07:22 AM QUOTE For that is what sin is! Wrong, sin is going against God's will....Since every God has a different will, how do you determine what is a sin. What is sin to a Christ Cultist is not necessarily a sin |