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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > I Am A Christian. What Reason Should I Join You? Posted by: Andy F. Dec 16 2003, 08:12 AM My name is Andy. I have been a Christian for 25 years and have seen the effects of it in my life and in many others. I have much evidence the earth is 6000 years old and that it was destroyed by a world wide flood which I believe shows God had judged the world and makes it clear that he will do it again in 2 Peter 3. I believe it is my job to warn of the danger that is coming if people don't repent of the sin which they have committed. I don't hate sinners, I am one myself. I am learning to hate the sin that I do and that others do. I don't hate homosexuals. I hate the discission they make in practicing it and try to convince them with gentleness and reverence that they should repent because of the judgment that is coming. Jesus didn't hate people who were sinners. He gave up his life for them. I would jump in front of a bullet to save any of you if the chance was given to me. I don't even hate Saddam Hussain. He is someone who has committed a crime that has the punishment of death. I pray he repent and be saved by Christ but he should still receive the death penalty for the crime. If I was in his spot I would request it as a just punishment for what was done to others. I would be happy to engage in any logical, scientific, or theological argument if I could stimulate your thinking on the matter. I have heard people say that without God you can think freely. How can you think at all if you don't consider the person who gave you your thinking? That's not freedom. Andy Flom questions@allwillbejudged.com www.allwillbejudged.com Posted by: Consummate Deist Dec 16 2003, 08:37 AM QUOTE I have much evidence the earth is 6000 years old and that it was destroyed by a world wide flood which I believe shows God had judged the world I have seen much more evidence that the earth is 4-6 billion years old and have seen contemporary writings from the supposed time of the flood by individuals that not only didn't mention a world wide flood but didn't even realize they were under 8 miles of water! These individuals lived full normal lives as did their children (of whom there is also contemporary proof of their lives) and their grandchildren and on and on for many generations...so much for a flood! Any God that would judge a tiny infant and destroy it in a world wide flood, would not be any God that I would want to worship - in fact that God would be able to teach your Devil tricks in being evil. QUOTE I would be happy to engage in any logical, scientific, or theological argument if I could stimulate your thinking on the matter. Unfortunately the Christ Cult and logic don't go together, and I don't accept your antique comic-book as proof of anything, but if you think you can prove anything using true science, come on! Posted by: bdpuffin Dec 16 2003, 08:38 AM I was a Xtian for 20 years and I considered everything that can be considered. I've dismissed it all and have no interest in discussion or debate. Others here are good at debate and may decide to take you up. I just don't feel 'led' to and I don't think that debate is one of my 'gifts.' bdp Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 08:43 AM I don't hate Christians...I hate christianity. I am not a sinner. Neither are you for that matter. Everyone makes mistakes, that doesn't make you a sinner. People grow and learn when they make mistakes. If mistakes qualify as sin then one could make the arguement that God is a sinner since he repeatly 'repents' throughout the bible. You have nothing in the way of evidence of a young earth. No global flooding. The proof just isn't there scientifically. List it out here and it'll get blasted to pot. I'd be interested if it's anything new or just rehashed pseudo science. Your job might be to warn others of impending doom. Whippee. It's my job to tell you that nothing you do is any good, your works are like filthy rags in the sight of your god. You can do nothing right, you are the most needy person. You can't think for yourself because you are required by your religion to bring "all thoughts captive". If you think for one second, anyone here is willing to join such a dismally depressing religion such as what you are offering, think again...if you can. Your lack of hatred shows how immature you are. There is hate in this world that is very much justified. Your lovey dovey nature on this matter is insulting. What if the bullet that you intercept if intended for someone who is truely deserving? (Like a murderer who is holed up with a bunch of school children?) Perhaps the more we 'accept and still love' these baddies, the more we let society slip away. Sometimes ya gotta say ENOUGH! Get mad for cryin out loud! As to your thread title, why should you join us? I give up! Why should you join us? Why don't you start using that noodle of yours and figure out the why's on your own. Posted by: Andy F. Dec 16 2003, 08:48 AM QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Dec 16 2003, 08:37 AM) QUOTE I have much evidence the earth is 6000 years old and that it was destroyed by a world wide flood which I believe shows God had judged the world I have seen much more evidence that the earth is 4-6 billion years old and have seen contemporary writings from the supposed time of the flood by individuals that not only didn't mention a world wide flood but didn't even realize they were under 8 miles of water! These individuals lived full normal lives as did their children (of whom there is also contemporary proof of their lives) and their grandchildren and on and on for many generations...so much for a flood! Any God that would judge a tiny infant and destroy it in a world wide flood, would not be any God that I would want to worship - in fact that God would be able to teach your Devil tricks in being evil. QUOTE I would be happy to engage in any logical, scientific, or theological argument if I could stimulate your thinking on the matter. Unfortunately the Christ Cult and logic don't go together, and I don't accept your antique comic-book as proof of anything, but if you think you can prove anything using true science, come on! I ask for one piece of evidence that the earth is older then 6000 years that will hold up to close examination. How can you know they didn't know there was a flood? Did they tell you in the writings? Can you prove they were writing about something that wasn't relevant to the flood? How can you know when these documents were written? How can you know they lived full and normal lives? Do you have a video tape of the event? Any God Judged peoples sin because he is just. He doesn't let the murderer and rapist go unpunished. But he gives a way that they can be saved from the punishment if they will repent. That is a God worth worship. If you believe what you say you should have an easy time with me. Me a little David and you a big Goliath. Andy Flom Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 08:50 AM QUOTE (bdpuffin @ Dec 16 2003, 08:38 AM) I was a Xtian for 20 years and I considered everything that can be considered. I've dismissed it all and have no interest in discussion or debate. Others here are good at debate and may decide to take you up. I just don't feel 'led' to and I don't think that debate is one of my 'gifts.' bdp God gave you a free will. If you wish to reject Jesus's offer then I will let you. I will however mention that you were warned. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. Andy Flom Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 09:04 AM I thought you were a hit and runner. O.k. I only have a few minutes but....the speed of light. It takes millions of years for light to travel from the closest star. Let me get my list out later tonight...K? Global flood. How did Noah and his troupe breath that high in the atmosphere? WHy is there NO evidence of a global flood? Areas around the world experience local floods, but nothing that would suggest it happened at the same time round the world. Where did the water go after the flood? Your 'god' didn't even give the inhabitants of this world a warning of what he was going to do. This is just a silly story of how truly evil your entity is. The great 'sin' folks committed was 'eating abundantly and having sex' big deal! Your angry god. That's all he is....a volcano dwelling, dark cloud lurking, earthquake stomping, troglodite!! It's your hell...you burn in it. Do YOU have a video tape of the flood? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary PROOF! WHy don't you lay out your 'extraordinary' proofs to us? Your god likes rape. As a matter of fact, if you are married and raped, you are to be killed because you didn't scream~ Maybe you had a knife in your face...big deal...you still didn't scream, therefore you are an adultress and you deserve to die. If you are a virgin and raped, you must marry the rapist and you can never divorce him. (After he pays your daddy off like you are a cow or some ohter piece of property) God is the biggest murderer ever! He needs to do somemore repenting the big mean 'sinner.' Posted by: Lokmer Dec 16 2003, 09:09 AM QUOTE (Andy F. @ Dec 16 2003, 08:12 AM) My name is Andy. I have been a Christian for 25 years and have seen the effects of it in my life and in many others. I have much evidence the earth is 6000 years old and that it was destroyed by a world wide flood which I believe shows God had judged the world and makes it clear that he will do it again in 2 Peter 3. I believe it is my job to warn of the danger that is coming if people don't repent of the sin which they have committed. I don't hate sinners, I am one myself. I am learning to hate the sin that I do and that others do. I don't hate homosexuals. I hate the discission they make in practicing it and try to convince them with gentleness and reverence that they should repent because of the judgment that is coming. Jesus didn't hate people who were sinners. He gave up his life for them. I would jump in front of a bullet to save any of you if the chance was given to me. I don't even hate Saddam Hussain. He is someone who has committed a crime that has the punishment of death. I pray he repent and be saved by Christ but he should still receive the death penalty for the crime. If I was in his spot I would request it as a just punishment for what was done to others. I would be happy to engage in any logical, scientific, or theological argument if I could stimulate your thinking on the matter. I have heard people say that without God you can think freely. How can you think at all if you don't consider the person who gave you your thinking? That's not freedom. Andy Flom questions@allwillbejudged.com www.allwillbejudged.com Hi, Andy. First, if you're looking to win converts you have a pretty tough row to hoe - much of your undergirding beliefs (6000 year old creation, et.al.) are not substantiable. Before I get into that, perhaps an introduction of my own would be in order. I was a very committed Christian for many years (20+), and that conviction seemed only to grow with time, as I experienced what I still can only define as spiritual epiphanies in the face of enormous emotional pressure, hypocricy in the church, what have you. I did not deconvert because of the bad behavior of Christians - although I witnessed a lot - nor because of my desire to live a sinful life, or anything of that nature. Rather, I was dragged kicking and screaming out of the faith, and it's a subject that is still very tender for me - I miss God and wished I could still believe. Being the child of a seminary professor (a well-published conservative theologian), I was not only raised in the faith but encouraged in an active intellectual and emotional relationship with God. No question was ever off limits, no subject taboo (at least in theory - in reality everyone has places where it isn't safe to go, but it took me a long time to find those places with the community I grew up in). I am, as a consequence, extremely well read in history, science, theology, apologetics, scriptural studies, the arts, rehtoric, logic, and the humanities. My journey toward apostasy began with my experience as an artist in the socially moderate-to-liberal (but theologically very conservative/orthodox) evangelical Christian community to which I became attatched a few years ago. As part of the community life in my church, I attended a lot of concerts given by local artisans (mostly Christian folk singers and poets) at a local Christian bookstore. I had, for a long time, made it a practice to stay out of the Christian bookstore culture because, as a sincere believer who valued the words of Christ, I was not comfortable with being in the presence of the sort of crass materialism one finds in such establishments. On one occasion while I was there, I took a walk around the bookstore during a set break to check for a couple of new books I had heard about, and was struck by just how little of what was in the store was of any value - either by secular standards of excellence or by Christian standards of integrity. As a Christian and an artist (novelist and filmmaker) I decided that it was time somebody said something, and I sat down and wrote an essay about the cultural, moral, and theological implications of the Christian retail culture. I found myself wondering why Christians had sequestered themselves into a ghetto, feeding only on cheap re-iterations of things they already took for granted instead of reading the great classical writers of the faith, or real science, or other such things where God's handiwork in the world could be genuniely perceived. The few books/albums I found in the store that were of any true worth were not only stuck in this backwater of commercialism, but weren't out in the secular bookstores where they could do some good (i.e. provoke people to think of eternal things). I sat down and counted the current crop of Christian artists and thinkers worth any real note, and came up with only a handful. "Well, no problem" I thought "every culture has its dry spells, and every church has its dark age. I'll just go out and make a difference." So I did. I worked harder than I had before on my art and my faith, jumping head first into a series of projects that forced me into spiritual and intellectual dicipline unlike what I had known before. About a year after I wrote the essay, a friend of mine (another prominent conservative theologian) read it and suggested that I turn it into a book on Christian integrity in the arts. I thought it was a great idea and plunged ahead. I am now almost finished with the book. It needs about another 15 pages and then a second draft, and its ready for publication, but I am, at the moment, unable to finish it with integrity. A funny thing happened to me on this little journey with God - I found that, no matter where I turned or what questions I asked, Christianity was failing to live up to its claims. I already knew about the history of the church - the bloodiest and most grotesque of any civilization, ancient or modern, with the possible exception of certain phases of Islam - but that didn't bother me too much. If you shall know a tree by its fruits, I reasoned, than the church certainly has not kept the faith with God. But, since I have never been particularly attatched to any institution, that didn't phase me too much. What did start getting to me was reading some of the more prominent conservative and neo-orthodox theologians (I'm talking about REAL theologians, not apologists) like Barth, Ellul, Neighbur, and McGrath, and even some of the more interesting lay Christian thinkers like Lewis and Bonhoffer. I discovered that every one of them concluded that God has chosen to disappear from the modern age, and that Christians are obligated to live without religion, persisting in only simple faith. Ellul particularly was absolutely razor sharp in his dissection of Christian superstition with the twin blades of reason and historical Biblical scholarship in his books "Prayer and Modern Man", "The Subversion of Christianity", and "Hope in a Time of Abandonment." McGrath also in his historical theologies has proved time and again that God's hand does not work in the Christian church (although he himself is a devout and very conservative Christian). This was not a discovery that floated my boat, to say the least. So, I went back to sources, and resolved to read the Gospels without the veil of doctrine in front of me. I read them as stories first, and then again as a holy book to see if I could justify my Christology, my theology, and my faith by them. Instead, I found to my horror that Christ as depicted in the gospels was - although a charismatic guy with a lot of good things to say - a criminal and a false prophet. Lewis, in his book "Miracles", frankly admitted as much when he said of Jesus' prophecy about the end of the world "If we are honest, we must admit that this is the greatest embarassment to the Christian faith ever perpetrated. Jesus was simply mistaken." But, if he was mistaken (which, after studying the greek and listening to the arguments of the best theologians on the topic, I regretfully concluded that he was), then he could not have been God. Moreover, by the standards laid down by Yahweh in Deuteronomy, he could not even have been a prophet of God or from God. Once this domino fell, it was a matter of time. I found myself in a mad rush to shore up my crumbling faith in the face of discovery after discovery - from being forced to confront the implications of the Greco-Persian mystery cults which I had long ago studied as a cultural curiosity, to the vacuous and ultimate futile dicipline of historical-Jesus research (I now hold the men who do this research to be valiant defenders of the faith on a hopeless quest), to the authorship history of the Old Testament, to finally facing the fact that if the Creation and Fall account in Genisis 2 are not FACT (rather than myth embodying important truth, which I had always believed them to be in the face of my knowledge of physics, geology, genetics, and natural history), then the whole structure falls. You see, if there was no original sin in the Pauline sense - no garden, no fruit, no Adam and Eve - then Christ's redeeming work means nothing. He may have said some cool things (though he said nothing original - again, not a problem if God's moral law is written on all hearts), but he did not redeem mankind because the thing which he was supposed to redeem us from (the sin of Adam) never happened. I was still determined to salvage my faith - the price of being wrong was too high. Although I never believed in hell (knowing for a long time now that it was a myth borrowed from the Egyptians and the Greeks that has no place in Hebrew thought before ~300-400 BCE). I couldn't bear the thought of standing before God and admitting that I had been an unfaithful servant. The idea of not doing right by the one who gave me this amazing gift called life filled me with immense sorrow - it sometimes still does. But I got to a point where I was forced to admit, against my own best wishes, that there is no more truth in Christianity than there is in any other religion. And, being very deeply studied in comparative religions, I have never had any use for religion as anything more than a vehicle for understanding people. So, here I am. If God exists, he's certainly being coy. I don't know if there is a God or not, but I know that the Christian God is not an accurate picture. Yahweh is a tribal diety who never was able to outgrow his roots as a projection of Hebrew insecurities. I am open to the idea of a God which transcends such considerations - a God like Campbell's God (the mystery which transcends all categories of thought) or Tillich's God (The Ground of Being in which we grow), or the emergent's God which understands the God concept as something similar to The Force. But a personal interventionist God? Not in the way we understand the terms. You say you have seen the effects of Christianity in your life and the lives of others. I have seen the same things - also in the lives of Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans, Mormons, JWs, Taoists, and Atheists. Any deeply held belief transforms a person whether or not it is true. And, not to be cruel, but the "evidence" that you claim to have that the world is 6000 years old and was destroyed one in a flood is absolute bullshit. I know you believe it, and have spent a lot of money on books from the Institute for Creation Research and have probably read a lot of Dr. Henry Morris' work, but that line of thinking is a tissue of lies that even most conservative theologians acknowledge as being unmitigated twaddle. Also, as to the "coming danger" of the "end of the world", if you are truly an honest man it would behoove you to learn about the history of dispensationalist belief. It is a system designed to reconcile the failed prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, the Gospels, and the Epistles with the cold hard facts of history. It was invented in the mid-nineteenth century during the Secod Great Awakening and has been beset with new failed prophecies ever since. It is a theologically bankrupt paradigm (not to mention intellectually bankrupt), and accepting it means that you have to accept a set of assumptions about the nature of God that are totally at odds with orthodox theology. If you are near a library, I suggest you find a book entitled "Blackwell's Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought" and look up the article "Dispensationalism" for a thorough history of the movement and a sypmathetic critique of its methods and motives. I wish I did believe in God. I miss him. But there exists not the slightest bit of evidence that he exists as a personal entity. "Faith" is another word for trust. You can have faith in God only as a consequence of believing in him. You cannot trust what you're not sure is there. Faith is a bond shared between friends. If there truly is a God who is the author of all, then all truth must eventually lead back to him. If there doesn't, then it's better to know that he's not there. This is what I call "God's Bluff." "I am the source of all there is", he says? Then by looking at all there is any honest person should be able to find him (Paul says as much in Romans 1). I'm looking - I will probably always be looking - and I remain open to a new vision of God. But the Christian God just ain't there. Or, as my very devout mother said to me when I told her that I was no longer a Christian (just two weeks ago - wow, it seems like forever) "It's God's business to prove he exists. If he won't he can't judge you for doubting." Are you truly confident in your beliefs? Then call God's bluff. Read the science and the history in a spirit of integrity and humble inquiry, searching for the truth. Once you understand it from its own perspective, then go back and see how well the gospel holds up. -Lokmer Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 09:11 AM QUOTE (Guest @ Dec 16 2003, 08:43 AM) I don't hate Christians...I hate christianity. I am not a sinner. Neither are you for that matter. Everyone makes mistakes, that doesn't make you a sinner. People grow and learn when they make mistakes. If mistakes qualify as sin then one could make the arguement that God is a sinner since he repeatly 'repents' throughout the bible. You have nothing in the way of evidence of a young earth. No global flooding. The proof just isn't there scientifically. List it out here and it'll get blasted to pot. I'd be interested if it's anything new or just rehashed pseudo science. Your job might be to warn others of impending doom. Whippee. It's my job to tell you that nothing you do is any good, your works are like filthy rags in the sight of your god. You can do nothing right, you are the most needy person. You can't think for yourself because you are required by your religion to bring "all thoughts captive". If you think for one second, anyone here is willing to join such a dismally depressing religion such as what you are offering, think again...if you can. Your lack of hatred shows how immature you are. There is hate in this world that is very much justified. Your lovey dovey nature on this matter is insulting. What if the bullet that you intercept if intended for someone who is truely deserving? (Like a murderer who is holed up with a bunch of school children?) Perhaps the more we 'accept and still love' these baddies, the more we let society slip away. Sometimes ya gotta say ENOUGH! Get mad for cryin out loud! As to your thread title, why should you join us? I give up! Why should you join us? Why don't you start using that noodle of yours and figure out the why's on your own. The whole earth is covered with sedimentary rock, the only way sedimentary rock is formed is by water depositing minerals. When this happens, water carries the minerals DOWNHILL, not UPHILL. So tell me how did clams get up to the top of the mountains and where did the dirt come from for the top layer of sediments that evolutionist claim is for today. When water evaporates from the Ocean. It leaves behind the sediments. The earth is eroding into the Oceans. How did the sedimentary rock form. The only answer that fits with science is a world wide flood. If it was many small floods there would be no sedimentary layers at the tops of the mountains, or clams like at the top of Mt. Everest. Where in the Bible does it say I can't think for myself. It does say in Psalm 1 that He who thinks on the things of God will have a solid foundation in their thinking. There are things in this world that I do hate, Starting with Satan. I will enjoy seeing him cast into Hell. I hate Homosexuality but not Homosexuals. I hate when someone hurts another unjustly. But I will love them like Christ did and warn them of their impending doom. It's coming whether you believe it or not. Let me make myself clear. If a bullet is fired at at a person who is threating peoples lives you can rest assured that I was the one who fired it. Self defense and defense of others is OK according to the Bible. I am not putting myself above you or anyone else. I am saying that I am just as guilty and as deserving of Hell as everyone else on this planet. I, however, have received happily the offer that was presented to me that God made me an offer that he would give me HIS righteousness in trade for the punishment for my sin. I accepted. And now I am making you aware that the offer is applied to you as well. I would consider it because you, just like myself, am going to die someday and will be dead for a long time. I am using my brain that has more connections then every electrical connections ever wired by man in the history of mankind. Are you using your 3 pound super-super computer that rests inside you skull to consider just how complex your noodle is? Fearfully and wonderfully made. Andy Flom Posted by: pitchu Dec 16 2003, 09:38 AM QUOTE (Guest @ Dec 16 2003, 08:50 AM) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of an angry God. Truer words were never spoken! And I feel sad for you that you did. Today is a great day to deconvert, Andy! Feel the benevolence of a neutral universe -- the freedom of knowing there's nothing to be saved from! Imagine the joy of that mind of yours click-clacking away at the job which physical causal necessity gave it -- the perceiving and integrating of the facts of existence so you may live safely and appreciatively within it! Oh, it's Good News, all right, that your life belongs to you and the good is to live it! Do it today, Andy, so you can give every little baby the love and honor and right to join us all as equal humans in the sight of ourselves! Do it today so you won't have to squander even one more Decenber 25th worshipping a baby who may or may not have been born! It's my duty to bring you the wonderful Word of Reality, Andy, with no promises from above and no threats from below! Join us here on earth, Andy! Love being here! Love all creatures here, and make a pact with them to do better by them than that contemptuous-of-his-own-creation god of yours has ever done! Come, Andy! Come! Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 09:41 AM QUOTE (Guest @ Dec 16 2003, 09:04 AM) I thought you were a hit and runner. O.k. I only have a few minutes but....the speed of light. It takes millions of years for light to travel from the closest star. Let me get my list out later tonight...K? Global flood. How did Noah and his troupe breath that high in the atmosphere? WHy is there NO evidence of a global flood? Areas around the world experience local floods, but nothing that would suggest it happened at the same time round the world. Where did the water go after the flood? Your 'god' didn't even give the inhabitants of this world a warning of what he was going to do. This is just a silly story of how truly evil your entity is. The great 'sin' folks committed was 'eating abundantly and having sex' big deal! Your angry god. That's all he is....a volcano dwelling, dark cloud lurking, earthquake stomping, troglodite!! It's your hell...you burn in it. Do YOU have a video tape of the flood? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary PROOF! WHy don't you lay out your 'extraordinary' proofs to us? Your god likes rape. As a matter of fact, if you are married and raped, you are to be killed because you didn't scream~ Maybe you had a knife in your face...big deal...you still didn't scream, therefore you are an adultress and you deserve to die. If you are a virgin and raped, you must marry the rapist and you can never divorce him. (After he pays your daddy off like you are a cow or some ohter piece of property) God is the biggest murderer ever! He needs to do somemore repenting the big mean 'sinner.' The Bible says that when Adam was created he was a full grown mature man who could walk, talk, and get married on his first day of existence. The creation was a mature creation. Light was created before the stars were. The Bible says that the light from the stars were to shine on the earth. Genesis 1. Can you prove that it didn't happen in this way? Psalms 104:8 "They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them." This is from the King James and it is an old english phrase that means the mountains arose, and the valleys went down. This would mean the while the earth was under water it would have been all soft sediments and would have been very flexible under pressure. Where the crust is 2 miles thick it would have then had to support the water that was under previously under the crust of the earth that it didn't support before forcing it down. The places where the crust of the earth is 30 miles thick would have bulged upward because of the pressure, sort of like a water bed, if you press down on one part it goes up in another part. This would mean the mountains wouldn't have been 5 miles high before the flood. Say, How come they find petrafied clams in the closed position at the top of Mt. Everest anyway? No evidence of a flood? Clams in the closed position at the top of Mt. Everest. The only way you find a clam in the closed position is if it is alive or if you found it was trapped while it was alive. Oil that is still under pressure? When they drill for oil it is under 10,000 PSI!!!!!! That pressure couldn't have lasted for more then 10,000 years!!! Why is it still under pressure. I got a lot more about the earth, moon, sun, bacteria, plants, animals, fossils, dinosaurs, etc. Pick the area of your expertise. Excuse Me, A warning of what he was going to do? NOAH STOOD THERE AND PREACHED FOR 120 YEARS THAT A FLOOD WAS COMING WHEN HE WAS BUILDING THE ARK AND INVITED THEM TO COME!!!!!!!! Genesis 6-9 God Gave them a garden to Eat till you full all the time and have great SEX wile your at it to but don't eat of this one tree so that love can be shown by your own free will to your creator. That's right, it is my hell, its what I deserve, its what everyone deserves and if there wasn't an offer to go to heaven free of charge, I would get drunk and die and still would have no reason to blame God because we still screwed up. But since I have an offer just like Adam and Eve had, I am going to make the best of it. Your choice is your own. You've been warned!!! I may not have video of the flood but I do have a historical document with I witness testimony called the Bible which I welcome to cross examination here. About your paragraph on rape: can I please see reference in the Bible that gives evidence to your comments? God can't qualify as a murder, He is the creator. The reason we qualify as murders is because the creator says you will not take life that the creator has given. The mother and father are not the creators either, The didn't invent the mechanisms the produce the baby, the creator did. The creator has the right to delete anything that isn't functioning the way it was intended. Just like you have the right to destroy the computer program you wrote. He has Heaven waiting for me, how about you? Andy Flom Posted by: meizonmouei Dec 16 2003, 09:43 AM QUOTE (Guest @ Dec 16 2003, 09:11 AM) in response to the question about how clams got to the tops of mountains: I have been to a mountain top in the Alps whose summit is rich in fossilized crustaceans. well, well over 6000 years ago, the land forming the mountain was the floor of the mediterranean sea, which was raised by volcanic activity. period. calling them clams only betrays a superficial knowledge of the actual science. comparing your interactions in an internet forum to a spiritual battle a la David and Goliath betrays a serious delusion. please think about what you're doing for your sake. Posted by: Lokmer Dec 16 2003, 09:55 AM As I pointed out before (funny how salient points always get ignored in conversations like this), the Bible fails the test of truth on its own merits - and Jesus certainly fails the test of Godhood on its account of him. All the rest of this is window dressing, wishful thinking, and circular reasoning. You believe the Bible is true, therefore you take what it says at any point at what you suppose to be face value, not realizing or acknowledging that you are reading your presuppositions into it. So you use it as evidence to prove that this dusty old book of myth,history,poetry, and propaganda is truer than the accumulated emprically tested knowledge of 300 years of scientific research. Hmm.... Can you spell "tautology"? No? How about "deliberat ignorance"? -Lokmer Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 10:01 AM QUOTE (Lokmer @ Dec 16 2003, 09:09 AM) QUOTE (Andy F. @ Dec 16 2003, 08:12 AM) My name is Andy. I have been a Christian for 25 years and have seen the effects of it in my life and in many others. I have much evidence the earth is 6000 years old and that it was destroyed by a world wide flood which I believe shows God had judged the world and makes it clear that he will do it again in 2 Peter 3. I believe it is my job to warn of the danger that is coming if people don't repent of the sin which they have committed. I don't hate sinners, I am one myself. I am learning to hate the sin that I do and that others do. I don't hate homosexuals. I hate the discission they make in practicing it and try to convince them with gentleness and reverence that they should repent because of the judgment that is coming. Jesus didn't hate people who were sinners. He gave up his life for them. I would jump in front of a bullet to save any of you if the chance was given to me. I don't even hate Saddam Hussain. He is someone who has committed a crime that has the punishment of death. I pray he repent and be saved by Christ but he should still receive the death penalty for the crime. If I was in his spot I would request it as a just punishment for what was done to others. I would be happy to engage in any logical, scientific, or theological argument if I could stimulate your thinking on the matter. I have heard people say that without God you can think freely. How can you think at all if you don't consider the person who gave you your thinking? That's not freedom. Andy Flom questions@allwillbejudged.com www.allwillbejudged.com Hi, Andy. First, if you're looking to win converts you have a pretty tough row to hoe - much of your undergirding beliefs (6000 year old creation, et.al.) are not substantiable. Before I get into that, perhaps an introduction of my own would be in order. I was a very committed Christian for many years (20+), and that conviction seemed only to grow with time, as I experienced what I still can only define as spiritual epiphanies in the face of enormous emotional pressure, hypocricy in the church, what have you. I did not deconvert because of the bad behavior of Christians - although I witnessed a lot - nor because of my desire to live a sinful life, or anything of that nature. Rather, I was dragged kicking and screaming out of the faith, and it's a subject that is still very tender for me - I miss God and wished I could still believe. Being the child of a seminary professor (a well-published conservative theologian), I was not only raised in the faith but encouraged in an active intellectual and emotional relationship with God. No question was ever off limits, no subject taboo (at least in theory - in reality everyone has places where it isn't safe to go, but it took me a long time to find those places with the community I grew up in). I am, as a consequence, extremely well read in history, science, theology, apologetics, scriptural studies, the arts, rehtoric, logic, and the humanities. My journey toward apostasy began with my experience as an artist in the socially moderate-to-liberal (but theologically very conservative/orthodox) evangelical Christian community to which I became attatched a few years ago. As part of the community life in my church, I attended a lot of concerts given by local artisans (mostly Christian folk singers and poets) at a local Christian bookstore. I had, for a long time, made it a practice to stay out of the Christian bookstore culture because, as a sincere believer who valued the words of Christ, I was not comfortable with being in the presence of the sort of crass materialism one finds in such establishments. On one occasion while I was there, I took a walk around the bookstore during a set break to check for a couple of new books I had heard about, and was struck by just how little of what was in the store was of any value - either by secular standards of excellence or by Christian standards of integrity. As a Christian and an artist (novelist and filmmaker) I decided that it was time somebody said something, and I sat down and wrote an essay about the cultural, moral, and theological implications of the Christian retail culture. I found myself wondering why Christians had sequestered themselves into a ghetto, feeding only on cheap re-iterations of things they already took for granted instead of reading the great classical writers of the faith, or real science, or other such things where God's handiwork in the world could be genuniely perceived. The few books/albums I found in the store that were of any true worth were not only stuck in this backwater of commercialism, but weren't out in the secular bookstores where they could do some good (i.e. provoke people to think of eternal things). I sat down and counted the current crop of Christian artists and thinkers worth any real note, and came up with only a handful. "Well, no problem" I thought "every culture has its dry spells, and every church has its dark age. I'll just go out and make a difference." So I did. I worked harder than I had before on my art and my faith, jumping head first into a series of projects that forced me into spiritual and intellectual dicipline unlike what I had known before. About a year after I wrote the essay, a friend of mine (another prominent conservative theologian) read it and suggested that I turn it into a book on Christian integrity in the arts. I thought it was a great idea and plunged ahead. I am now almost finished with the book. It needs about another 15 pages and then a second draft, and its ready for publication, but I am, at the moment, unable to finish it with integrity. A funny thing happened to me on this little journey with God - I found that, no matter where I turned or what questions I asked, Christianity was failing to live up to its claims. I already knew about the history of the church - the bloodiest and most grotesque of any civilization, ancient or modern, with the possible exception of certain phases of Islam - but that didn't bother me too much. If you shall know a tree by its fruits, I reasoned, than the church certainly has not kept the faith with God. But, since I have never been particularly attatched to any institution, that didn't phase me too much. What did start getting to me was reading some of the more prominent conservative and neo-orthodox theologians (I'm talking about REAL theologians, not apologists) like Barth, Ellul, Neighbur, and McGrath, and even some of the more interesting lay Christian thinkers like Lewis and Bonhoffer. I discovered that every one of them concluded that God has chosen to disappear from the modern age, and that Christians are obligated to live without religion, persisting in only simple faith. Ellul particularly was absolutely razor sharp in his dissection of Christian superstition with the twin blades of reason and historical Biblical scholarship in his books "Prayer and Modern Man", "The Subversion of Christianity", and "Hope in a Time of Abandonment." McGrath also in his historical theologies has proved time and again that God's hand does not work in the Christian church (although he himself is a devout and very conservative Christian). This was not a discovery that floated my boat, to say the least. So, I went back to sources, and resolved to read the Gospels without the veil of doctrine in front of me. I read them as stories first, and then again as a holy book to see if I could justify my Christology, my theology, and my faith by them. Instead, I found to my horror that Christ as depicted in the gospels was - although a charismatic guy with a lot of good things to say - a criminal and a false prophet. Lewis, in his book "Miracles", frankly admitted as much when he said of Jesus' prophecy about the end of the world "If we are honest, we must admit that this is the greatest embarassment to the Christian faith ever perpetrated. Jesus was simply mistaken." But, if he was mistaken (which, after studying the greek and listening to the arguments of the best theologians on the topic, I regretfully concluded that he was), then he could not have been God. Moreover, by the standards laid down by Yahweh in Deuteronomy, he could not even have been a prophet of God or from God. Once this domino fell, it was a matter of time. I found myself in a mad rush to shore up my crumbling faith in the face of discovery after discovery - from being forced to confront the implications of the Greco-Persian mystery cults which I had long ago studied as a cultural curiosity, to the vacuous and ultimate futile dicipline of historical-Jesus research (I now hold the men who do this research to be valiant defenders of the faith on a hopeless quest), to the authorship history of the Old Testament, to finally facing the fact that if the Creation and Fall account in Genisis 2 are not FACT (rather than myth embodying important truth, which I had always believed them to be in the face of my knowledge of physics, geology, genetics, and natural history), then the whole structure falls. You see, if there was no original sin in the Pauline sense - no garden, no fruit, no Adam and Eve - then Christ's redeeming work means nothing. He may have said some cool things (though he said nothing original - again, not a problem if God's moral law is written on all hearts), but he did not redeem mankind because the thing which he was supposed to redeem us from (the sin of Adam) never happened. I was still determined to salvage my faith - the price of being wrong was too high. Although I never believed in hell (knowing for a long time now that it was a myth borrowed from the Egyptians and the Greeks that has no place in Hebrew thought before ~300-400 BCE). I couldn't bear the thought of standing before God and admitting that I had been an unfaithful servant. The idea of not doing right by the one who gave me this amazing gift called life filled me with immense sorrow - it sometimes still does. But I got to a point where I was forced to admit, against my own best wishes, that there is no more truth in Christianity than there is in any other religion. And, being very deeply studied in comparative religions, I have never had any use for religion as anything more than a vehicle for understanding people. So, here I am. If God exists, he's certainly being coy. I don't know if there is a God or not, but I know that the Christian God is not an accurate picture. Yahweh is a tribal diety who never was able to outgrow his roots as a projection of Hebrew insecurities. I am open to the idea of a God which transcends such considerations - a God like Campbell's God (the mystery which transcends all categories of thought) or Tillich's God (The Ground of Being in which we grow), or the emergent's God which understands the God concept as something similar to The Force. But a personal interventionist God? Not in the way we understand the terms. You say you have seen the effects of Christianity in your life and the lives of others. I have seen the same things - also in the lives of Buddhists, Druids, Wiccans, Mormons, JWs, Taoists, and Atheists. Any deeply held belief transforms a person whether or not it is true. And, not to be cruel, but the "evidence" that you claim to have that the world is 6000 years old and was destroyed one in a flood is absolute bullshit. I know you believe it, and have spent a lot of money on books from the Institute for Creation Research and have probably read a lot of Dr. Henry Morris' work, but that line of thinking is a tissue of lies that even most conservative theologians acknowledge as being unmitigated twaddle. Also, as to the "coming danger" of the "end of the world", if you are truly an honest man it would behoove you to learn about the history of dispensationalist belief. It is a system designed to reconcile the failed prophecies in Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Revelation, the Gospels, and the Epistles with the cold hard facts of history. It was invented in the mid-nineteenth century during the Secod Great Awakening and has been beset with new failed prophecies ever since. It is a theologically bankrupt paradigm (not to mention intellectually bankrupt), and accepting it means that you have to accept a set of assumptions about the nature of God that are totally at odds with orthodox theology. If you are near a library, I suggest you find a book entitled "Blackwell's Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought" and look up the article "Dispensationalism" for a thorough history of the movement and a sypmathetic critique of its methods and motives. I wish I did believe in God. I miss him. But there exists not the slightest bit of evidence that he exists as a personal entity. "Faith" is another word for trust. You can have faith in God only as a consequence of believing in him. You cannot trust what you're not sure is there. Faith is a bond shared between friends. If there truly is a God who is the author of all, then all truth must eventually lead back to him. If there doesn't, then it's better to know that he's not there. This is what I call "God's Bluff." "I am the source of all there is", he says? Then by looking at all there is any honest person should be able to find him (Paul says as much in Romans 1). I'm looking - I will probably always be looking - and I remain open to a new vision of God. But the Christian God just ain't there. Or, as my very devout mother said to me when I told her that I was no longer a Christian (just two weeks ago - wow, it seems like forever) "It's God's business to prove he exists. If he won't he can't judge you for doubting." Are you truly confident in your beliefs? Then call God's bluff. Read the science and the history in a spirit of integrity and humble inquiry, searching for the truth. Once you understand it from its own perspective, then go back and see how well the gospel holds up. -Lokmer I'm not trying to win converts. That's God's Job. My job is to preach the gospel and to correct fallacies that have been brought forth so you have a better understanding of reality. It's great serving God. No heavy burdens to bear. You mention in your testimony that Christianity was failing to live up to its claims. What claims are you talking about? The church has always had problems. Paul didn't write letters to people saying they needed to act like the church. He wrote letters saying the Church needed to act like Christ. I don't care how bad the church got, God will punish those who don't follow his word, even me. But now it's a family matter and the punishments are for correction. With people that aren't in his family that is another issue. I don't care what people say, I care what the Bible says. What did Paul, Peter, Luke, John say about God? These were the men that the Bible says the Holy Spirit spoke through. Please explain the Jesus as a Criminal and a False Prophet? I would like to point out something here, you aren't getting your information from the Bible to form you opinion of the Bible. You are getting it from a 3rd source that appears to have a bias they aren't telling you about. This is a long article that you wrote. Lets me and you have a nice discussion here. Lets keep these letters short for time purposes. I still have a wife God gave me that I have to love and serve. Let's first tackle these issues that I pulled from your letter and then we will go back and get the others. Andy Flom Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 10:06 AM QUOTE (meizonmouei @ Dec 16 2003, 09:43 AM) QUOTE (Guest @ Dec 16 2003, 09:11 AM) in response to the question about how clams got to the tops of mountains: I have been to a mountain top in the Alps whose summit is rich in fossilized crustaceans. well, well over 6000 years ago, the land forming the mountain was the floor of the mediterranean sea, which was raised by volcanic activity. period. calling them clams only betrays a superficial knowledge of the actual science. comparing your interactions in an internet forum to a spiritual battle a la David and Goliath betrays a serious delusion. please think about what you're doing for your sake. Please explain to me how you KNOW they are over 6000 years old. Volcanic activity during the flood, lots of things happened under a planet covered with water. First, your belief is what your trying to use to prove my belief wrong. You can't use speculation to prove speculation wrong, you have to use facts. Before you can say that my David and Goliath was incorrect you need to first prove it didn't happen USING FACTS which I will cross examine. Andy Flom Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 10:12 AM QUOTE (Lokmer @ Dec 16 2003, 09:55 AM) As I pointed out before (funny how salient points always get ignored in conversations like this), the Bible fails the test of truth on its own merits - and Jesus certainly fails the test of Godhood on its account of him. All the rest of this is window dressing, wishful thinking, and circular reasoning. You believe the Bible is true, therefore you take what it says at any point at what you suppose to be face value, not realizing or acknowledging that you are reading your presuppositions into it. So you use it as evidence to prove that this dusty old book of myth,history,poetry, and propaganda is truer than the accumulated emprically tested knowledge of 300 years of scientific research. Hmm.... Can you spell "tautology"? No? How about "deliberat ignorance"? -LokmerW First off, What Silent Points? Second, What Tests of truth does the Bible fail? Third, What tests of Godhood does Jesus fail? Speak with you thoughts in front of you. What "FACTS" have I been ingorant about. I will lose no sleep at night ignoring you speculation, thories and beliefs but I will listen to any FACTS you present which will be subject to my cross examination. Using speculation to prove speculation is a form of speaking in tautologies!!! Andy Flom Posted by: Consummate Deist Dec 16 2003, 10:14 AM QUOTE I ask for one piece of evidence that the earth is older then 6000 years that will hold up to close examination. Stratifiction of rock for one…..radioactive decay for another. QUOTE How can you know they didn't know there was a flood? Doesn’t it seem strange that they wouldn’t just off hand mention the fact that the weather was strange, that the 40 days and nights of rain had made the rivers overflow, that they were sitting underwater at the time of writing – that would seem pretty important to me and probably to them too. The fact that none of this was mentioned by them and by their later historians is pretty fair proof that there was no flood. While we are on the subject, what were the supposed mechanics of the flood. Where did the water come from and where did it go? How did Noah and his family survive? QUOTE Did they tell you in the writings? Can you prove they were writing about something that wasn't relevant to the flood? Somehow, I figure day to day events, battles, decrees by the Pharaoh and other kings, the price of commodities, etc have nothing to do with a global flood. This is what you find in the still existing documents of that time period – not wailing and gnashing of teeth, pleas to God for mercy or any of that clap-trap! QUOTE How can you know when these documents were written? They are dated – even back then people dated Documents and we have been able by correlating Known dates with those dates to give us a timeline…. QUOTE How can you know they lived full and normal lives? Do you have a video tape of the event? How do you know that George Washington lived a full and normal life – through history of course, do you think that the Europeans or Americans invented history? Mankind has been writing down history since we learned to write (over 5000 years ago), you have to agree with that. QUOTE Any God Judged peoples sin because he is just. He doesn't let the murderer and rapist go unpunished. But he gives a way that they can be saved from the punishment if they will repent. That is a God worth worship. But who judges God’s sins – he lies, he has even admitted that, he kills people wantonly, he has she bears rend young boys for poking fun (a very small sin, if it is a sin at all) at a bald headed man….Nice God you worship, you should learn of the Creator’s love and leave that Hebrew Demon and his bastard son! Posted by: Guest Dec 16 2003, 10:28 AM Does your bible have a concordance? Look up rape for yourself. Some of what I found under RAPE was Deuteronomy 22 13-30. Just sick. Not something I want for my daughter thank you very much. EXCUSE ME!! I just perused Genesis 6-9 and nary a word of warning for the inhabitants of the world!! It never once says anything of 120 years of preaching. I still haven't seen any extraordinary evidence on your behalf mr. flom Posted by: Andy F. Dec 16 2003, 10:43 AM QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Dec 16 2003, 10:14 AM) QUOTE I ask for one piece of evidence that the earth is older then 6000 years that will hold up to close examination. Stratifiction of rock for one…..radioactive decay for another. QUOTE How can you know they didn't know there was a flood? Doesn’t it seem strange that they wouldn’t just off hand mention the fact that the weather was strange, that the 40 days and nights of rain had made the rivers overflow, that they were sitting underwater at the time of writing – that would seem pretty important to me and probably to them too. The fact that none of this was mentioned by them and by their later historians is pretty fair proof that there was no flood. While we are on the subject, what were the supposed mechanics of the flood. Where did the water come from and where did it go? How did Noah and his family survive? QUOTE Did they tell you in the writings? Can you prove they were writing about something that wasn't relevant to the flood? Somehow, I figure day to day events, battles, decrees by the Pharaoh and other kings, the price of commodities, etc have nothing to do with a global flood. This is what you find in the still existing documents of that time period – not wailing and gnashing of teeth, pleas to God for mercy or any of that clap-trap! QUOTE How can you know when these documents were written? They are dated – even back then people dated Documents and we have been able by correlating Known dates with those dates to give us a timeline…. QUOTE How can you know they lived full and normal lives? Do you have a video tape of the event? How do you know that George Washington lived a full and normal life – through history of course, do you think that the Europeans or Americans invented history? Mankind has been writing down history since we learned to write (over 5000 years ago), you have to agree with that. QUOTE Any God Judged peoples sin because he is just. He doesn't let the murderer and rapist go unpunished. But he gives a way that they can be saved from the punishment if they will repent. That is a God worth worship. But who judges God’s sins – he lies, he has even admitted that, he kills people wantonly, he has she bears rend young boys for poking fun (a very small sin, if it is a sin at all) at a bald headed man….Nice God you worship, you should learn of the Creator’s love and leave that Hebrew Demon and his bastard son! Stratification of rock proves that is was layed down by a great flood. Prove me wrong. Radio active dating shows the current levels of a radioactive element that are in the object TODAY and the rate of what they are decaying at TODAY. Can you prove to me that It didn't start at the flood and that your uniformitarianism theory will withhold for millions of years without historical documentation but on pure assumption. I don't know there was a flood. I BELIEVE there was a flood and my belief fits with the evidence, I have asked it many times now and haven't got an answer. How did clams in the closed position get at the top of Mt. Everest? Who are you talking about that is saying this? Noah left a great record of the event. People are still talking about it today. If your talking about the ancient Egyptians please keep in mind that the Bible says they lived after the flood and you may not be documenting about the flood on the articles you are reading. They may be a cooking recipe, the flood usually isn't relevant information when trying to bake bread. As for the mechanics of the flood, Here's what the Bible says The water above the earth fell, that's why it's not there today, the water from under the earth busted up the earth to get to the surface, probably that is why we have techtonic plates, and the water is currently in the oceans, I don't know if you've seen them but they are HUGE! The bible says in Psalm 104 that the valleys sank down and the Mountains arose and all that water ran into the low places carving Grand Canyon in 30 minutes. The oceans have enough water to cover the earth 2 miles deep if you lower the high places and lift up the ocean basins. By the way about the mention of historians of the flood, there are currently 270 flood legends from around the planet. What are you talking about? Noah and his family survived aboard the Ark that God told them how to build. When I go home I am going to have a dinner and talk with my wife about the great day, if the mention of you doesn't come up does that prove you don't exist. No, it prove you weren't relevant to that conversation. What you said doesn't prove the flood didn't happen. Maybe the memory of it was still so fresh on their minds that they hated even the mention of a moment in history that was so terrible. Think about it. What documents, what timeline, how are they dated, is the Bible considered in your dating or does your bias keep it out? I know George Washington was real because we have a book that tells of him that doesn't contradict know history. Same way I understand the flood. The only evidence of man learning to speak is the Bible. What evidence do you have? Please give Bible references to your last paragraph makes sense. The reason we can be listed as murderers is because the creator says that we are to take no life that the creator has created. The creator has the right to destroy anything that's not functioning the way he intended it to function. As anyone in computer programming if that's true. No matter how young or old the creation is. This is his world, he can wreck it if he wants. My creator came down to this planet and experience all the hard ships we experience and even make himself subject to the same law he have us and he is the only one who has kept it. I have no excuses for my behavior. I would love to cross examine yours if you have any. Andy Flom Posted by: Lokmer Dec 16 2003, 10:44 AM QUOTE First off, What Silent Points? That's salient as in "relevent". Comes from the word "saline" which means "salt." A salient point is a particularly pointed and important point. The ones I raised in my (admitedly VERY long) first post - such as Jesus prophetic failure - are the ones to which I was referring. QUOTE Second, What Tests of truth does the Bible fail? It fails the test of history, internally. The histories given by Chronicles do not agree with the histories given in Samuels/Kings on several major points. The gospels disagree irreconcilably on every point of major doctrine. They do not agree on the geneology of Jesus, on the details or the time of the resurrection, on how many people he was cruci |