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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 09:43 AM |
| What Bugs You the Most? False Doctrines [ 1 ] [1.05%] False Arguments [ 4 ] [4.21%] False Piety/Smugness [ 19 ] [20.00%] Self-Righteous Assault on Us [ 9 ] [9.47%] Naked Hate Assault on Us [ 4 ] [4.21%] Assault on Races, Groups, Etc. [ 6 ] [6.32%] Hitting and Running [ 3 ] [3.16%] Using Many Names [ 1 ] [1.05%] Failure to Address Points [ 12 ] [12.63%] Repititiveness [ 1 ] [1.05%] Parroting [ 6 ] [6.32%] Illiterateness [ 0 ] [0.00%] Absence of Curiosity [ 7 ] [7.37%] Anti-Intellectualism [ 12 ] [12.63%] Other [ 10 ] [10.53%] Total Votes: 95 |
| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 09:44 AM |
| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > What Bugs You The Most? Posted by: pitchu Feb 5 2004, 08:56 AM I'm sure I'm leaving out a lot of choices, but it occurred to me that visiting xians may not be aware of the varieties of ways in which we're still *sob* long-suffering at their hands. In fact, until I started making the list, I, myself, was not aware of the infinite variety of annoyances they bring us. So which one most gets under your skin? And, in light of this, how would you describe your ideal visiting xian? Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 5 2004, 09:14 AM It has got to be the... I'm just a very nice person who has dropped by to tell you that you are going to hell. And PS. God Loves You There words are entirely disingenuous. They are not here to warn us of anything. They hate us for rocking their already weak faith, and feel impowered by condemning us. Posted by: Reach Feb 5 2004, 09:19 AM Oh my! Can we talk? Most of it bugs me. Dishonesty, Stealing the employer's time to post here Bigotry, Hatred, Racism, Anti-Semitism Refusing to register - insisting on maintaining a position of separateness while wanting to engage in battle Closed minds, oops, my mistake... I mean locked-up minds Refusing to read through some of the posts before posting - Why? Because this community really is not important to them. Refusal to consider what appears to be decent scholarship Arrogance, Pride, Smugness, False Piety Refusal or inadequate apology when rude or offensive Unnecessary rudeness - just for the fun of it Lack of respect for others' issues, problems, struggles General ignorance and distrust for education Illiteracy, Anti-intellectualism General disingenuousness Obnoxious stench overall I could continue. I'm sure I left out a lot. reach Posted by: Buddy4me17 Feb 5 2004, 09:32 AM Actually I don't usually mind debating with christians. I find that it helps support my view that they are morons and I am superior. And who doesn't like to feel that? Posted by: BillJ Feb 5 2004, 09:35 AM What bugs you the most about debating with Christians? They won't admit to their own fallacies or accept Bible injustices. Even if you show them the context and go as far as to get the Hebrew translation, they still will come up with lousy explainations. Some will even accept the Bible injustices, and they will say things like, "If your evil you pay the price." or "Doesn't matter if your innocent, if your under rule of a rebellious leader you are guilty by association." Posted by: pitchu Feb 5 2004, 09:51 AM Buddy, I admire your honesty and your freshness! (Let us know if you remain unbugged after a dozen or so encounters, okay? ) Even this soon, you guys make me realize how many things I didn't include. I even forgot my own second top choice -- abject humorlessness. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 5 2004, 10:13 AM QUOTE Failure to Address Points I really hate when one of us has written a lengthy, detailed response to a Xian's questions or arguments, and it is not only ignored, the Xian makes lengthy complaints about no one addressing his posts. SOMEONE TELL ME ABOUT THE CLAMS ON MT. EVEREST!!!!! Posted by: Buddy4me17 Feb 5 2004, 10:16 AM Actually Pitchu, I have been on ICQ's atheist message board for about a year (http://web.icq.com/community/message_boards/browse_folder?folder_id=9208) and have found more than my fair share of foaming at the mouth fundies. And while I have never been religous, it really makes me want to thank my parents for not forcing a relgion on me. Those people are really disturbed. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 5 2004, 10:17 AM Pitchu, I've got a couple of troubles here. 1. I can only vote once. 2. Are we talking about xtians encountered here or in real life? 3. There are Christians whom I've encountered both here and in meatspace that don't fit the above qualities. Should I tell you about my ex-pastor. That guy is alright. We need a better word to describe the close-minded people who call them selves christians, and a word to describe those people who call them selves christians and who treat people with respect and love. What 'da think? Posted by: TruthWarrior Feb 5 2004, 10:25 AM I picked other. What bugs me the most is that they base their entire reasoning out of fear. That is the root of all these annoying things. They fear both themselves and all around them are at risk of being thrown and hell. Actually it's death they fear, of their spirits and bodies. So the little chickens hide in their bible boxes and cry out "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" Everyone fears something though. But to let it control you like that is just plain wrong, both in politics and religion. Posted by: moorezw Feb 5 2004, 10:34 AM All of the above. Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Feb 5 2004, 10:54 AM A lot of things. Like when you take great pains to debate with them and they address only your weakest point or none at all. They summarize everything they said as if none of it had been challenged. They come back after some measure of time with the same old arguments. They jump on the Us vs. Them bandwagon. They post multiple threads about the same thing. Well it used to bug me. Now I find it mildly amusing. The only thing that really bugs me is that these people are running the country, state and county governments, businesses, etc; that they have some sort of "evil detector" and think they can go after anyone because of what they feel instead of what they know. Scratch that. They don't go after anyone - they force people like you or I to do it for them. They can talk up a shitstorm and I will laugh at them, speak lightly and watch their house of cards fall down. But one think I cannot tolerate is the fact that they have their guns and their "superior morality" trained on me - there, to tell me what to do and how to think. Posted by: Reach Feb 5 2004, 11:02 AM I'm sorry if anyone feels I should not be posting in this thread since I am a follower of Christ. Especially to pitchu, I'd make my apology; however, your question is multi-faceted. "What bugs you the most, about debating with xians?" You mention "visiting xians" and I'm a member here. "So which one most gets under your skin?" I don't find myself debating with xians here, members or guests, but... I have to point out one more glaring thing I see: A predisposition to single out gays and lesbians for assault. reach for truth Posted by: pitchu Feb 5 2004, 11:53 AM Couple of points. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. I'm talking only about visiting xians to these forums. Do the designations, "fundy," "xian" and "visiting xian" not cover demarcations accurately or adequately? Any suggestions? My top complaint, too, regards assaults on gays, lesbians, Jews, out-of-favor-other-xian-sects, those in the fields of science, education, arts... the sub-groups under assault are legion. I really get heartsick over the expression of these (yes, fear-based) prejudices. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 5 2004, 12:26 PM Fundy might actually fit. I should have proposed that before... Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 5 2004, 03:07 PM QUOTE (TruthWarrior @ Feb 5 2004, 01:25 PM) I picked other. What bugs me the most is that they base their entire reasoning out of fear. That is the root of all these annoying things. They fear both themselves and all around them are at risk of being thrown and hell. Actually it's death they fear, of their spirits and bodies. So the little chickens hide in their bible boxes and cry out "The sky is falling! The sky is falling!" Everyone fears something though. But to let it control you like that is just plain wrong, both in politics and religion. Reach QUOTE I have to point out one more glaring thing I see: A predisposition to single out gays and lesbians for assault. Reach, your sweet for saying that, thank you. I think TruthWarrior hit the nail on the head when he discussed the FEAR factor of Christianity. Fear is a very powerful emotion. If you can tap into it, you can control other people. Here is a personal example that happened to me and exemplifies both the FEAR factor many Christians are enslaved by and the fundamentalist Christian preoccupation with homosexuality. When I came out to my parents at the age of 19, both my parents were completely taken aback. (To say the least) Both were engrained with the prevailing misconceptions of what gay people were and how they lived their lives. My mother on one hand relied on Christian principles (Her version anyway. Reach, I am trying very hard not to paint with a large brush here) as her guide in dealing with the situation. My father on the other hand had no such encumbrances. Over the next 20 years my mother refused to budge from her position. Why? I believe it was out of fear. She knew what kind of person I was and that nothing had really changed about me after my declaration. She knew I was not an evil person. Yet from her perspective, if she accepted me, she was in some way rejecting her faith. Her fear of the eternal consequences of accepting me as I am, resulted in a relationship that was utterly superficial. She died in 1997 not knowing who I was at all. I think she would have been proud of me if she had taken the time to question and understand me. I still love my mother very much, but our relationship was ruined by fear. My father on the other hand was quick to pick up reading material on homosexuality. He questioned his own preconceptions. He questioned me. He questioned my partner. He learned to trust his own judgment. By the time of his death 18 months ago, he knew more about me, and me about him, then any two members of our family. He trusted me with information about his own plans for euthanasia. (He did take his own life after a very long and painful period) He adored my sister’s partner and my partner as well. He helped us buy our home and genuinely respected our relationships. When he died a piece of me went with him. I felt no such feeling when my mother died. Posted by: starstuff Feb 5 2004, 03:33 PM I voted for anti-intellectualism. Like when they claim to use reason to support their beliefs, but if reason does not support their belief they just say that that particular belief is beyond reason and requires faith. You just CAN'T honestly claim to base your beliefs on reason when you will believe it weither reason supports it or not! "Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -Mark Twain Oh, and the word games. How many (not all, though) christians try to take the word "faith" and define it as something indistinguishable from "hope" or "trust." As for me, I can't have hope in, or trust in, any person whose very existence I must accept on faith. Posted by: Autumnwind Feb 5 2004, 04:16 PM The thing that bugs me the most about fundies who come to debate, or who debate ANYWHERE, is their stubborn need to always have an answer. I'd have a HELL of a lot of respect for a xian who simply said, "I don't know," rather than, "Well, it's God's will!" or "We can't begin to comprehend God!" (Which I call bullshit- the deity supposedly wants to save us from the damnation to hell that HE caused, I would think he wants to make things as CLEAR as f-ing possible... but that's for another thread) The other typical response I see when a fundy is backed into a corner is condescending refusal to answer the question, for some reason (just had that experience at another board) but that's just amusing. I think the inability to just say, "I don't know" has to be the most irritating to me. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Feb 5 2004, 06:08 PM Object Other = False Doctrines + False Arguments + False Piety + Self-Righteous Assault on Us + Naked Hate Assault on Us + Assault on Races, Groups, Etc. + Anti-Intellectualism; while (Other==true) { New Religion Christianity = "Bad"; } Posted by: Loren Feb 5 2004, 06:48 PM When I first read the choices, I didn't vote, because I couldn't pick ALL of them. But having just come from another thread (which shall remain nameless out of respect for the person who started it), I'd have to say that, right now, what disgusts me most is when they leave in high indignation with a promise to never return SIX OR SEVEN TIMES IN A ROW!!! Posted by: pitchu Feb 5 2004, 07:30 PM QUOTE (Loren @ Feb 5 2004, 06:48 PM) [...]I'd have to say that, right now, what disgusts me most is when they leave in high indignation with a promise to never return SIX OR SEVEN TIMES IN A ROW!!! But, Loren, don't you know good boys and girls always make up for it by flagellating themselves with birch branches after every single time they swear they will never sneak out the window again to go to the precipice overlooking the bonfire around which the heathens dance under the full moon...? Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Feb 5 2004, 07:58 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 5 2004, 10:30 PM) But, Loren, don't you know good boys and girls always make up for it by flagellating themselves with birch branches after every single time they swear they will never sneak out the window again to go to the precipice overlooking the bonfire around which the heathens dance under the full moon...? No, they just blame it on witchcraft *cough* Crucible *cough* Posted by: Jay Feb 5 2004, 09:06 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 5 2004, 09:19 AM) Stealing the employer's time to post here Bigotry, Hatred, Racism, Anti-Semitism Refusing to register - insisting on maintaining a position of separateness while wanting to engage in battle Closed minds, oops, my mistake... I mean locked-up minds Refusing to read through some of the posts before posting - Why? Because this community really is not important to them. Refusal to consider what appears to be decent scholarship Arrogance, Pride, Smugness, False Piety Refusal or inadequate apology when rude or offensive Unnecessary rudeness - just for the fun of it Lack of respect for others' issues, problems, struggles General ignorance and distrust for education Illiteracy, Anti-intellectualism General disingenuousness Obnoxious stench overall Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? Posted by: Jay Feb 5 2004, 09:08 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 5 2004, 11:02 AM) I have to point out one more glaring thing I see: A predisposition to single out gays and lesbians for assault. Wow. As a fellow Christian, I must say that this irritates me as well... Posted by: Reach Feb 5 2004, 10:42 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 5 2004, 09:06 PM) Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? pitchu QUOTE Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough. I'm talking only about visiting xians to these forums. Hey Jay! ~ In making this statement, I recognize it will be a broad general one but I'm not going to go over the list individually and debate this with you. So speaking in general terms now, I hoped to see LESS of this in Christians, Jay, instead of MORE. I thought Christians were called to reflect Christ. Look around, especially at the "Christian" visitors' postings to this site, and tell me I'm wrong. ~ reach for truth Edit: We were discussing only "visiting xians to these forums." Posted by: Tocis Feb 5 2004, 11:20 PM I chose "other", like many others, because only single choices are allowed. I'd summarize what bothers me as "generic and utter dishonesty". Examples include the well-known pseudo-scientific "proofs" for babblical creationism, accusing others of doing what they themselves routinely do, and declaring themselves to be the victors of a debate when in fact the debate ended long ago, when they refused to even consider anything that would contradict their fundie worldview. Specification of the last point above: Take for an example "P. D" (I just give the initials for obvious reasons ) in alt.religion.christian... in my first discussion with him he ignored my valid points multiple times, then bragged that "you could not refute my claims". Or take "M. J." in alt.talk.creationism who thinks he can win the evolution-creation battle if he keeps asking everyone what exactly the "theory of" is. He keeps asking me, among others, although I answered his ludicrous question weeks ago. The obvious reason, of course, is that as soon as he starts to admit that I answered, he also has to admit that he hasn't got anything to answer now. Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 5 2004, 11:29 PM QUOTE (moorezw @ Feb 5 2004, 10:34 AM) All of the above. I have to agree with Moorezw when he said, "All of the above." I also feel compelled to correct him since he left out, "and then some." Posted by: Reality Amplifier Feb 5 2004, 11:41 PM The "Seagull Christian" who flys in, craps on everything that's non-Christian, and then flys off is somewhat annoying. Also, those invisible mental-shielding helmets that I've seen deflect all logic, evidence and reason which would otherwise have them sincerely re-examine their worldview bug me. Typically only hardcore fundies wear those... If I may have planted a few seeds of reason, those encounters are still worth it though. Posted by: Guest Feb 6 2004, 01:52 AM QUOTE (Reality Amplifier @ Feb 5 2004, 11:41 PM) If I may have planted a few seeds of reason, those encounters are still worth it though. Don't you mean, "Seeds of Evil"? I couldn't agree with you more on this quote RA. Posted by: moorezw Feb 6 2004, 07:33 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 6 2004, 12:06 AM) Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? Jay- They're unique to most fundamentalists of any religion. We just see more Christians here. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Feb 6 2004, 07:43 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 6 2004, 12:06 AM) Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? You have a point, Jay. There are many of these that can apply to non-christians (including us on this board). It's a good reminder to me to try to avoid using the same tactics that I hate in visiting christians. *************** Anyway, I voted for "Self-Righteous Assault on Us". I almost voted for "Failure to Address Points". It's really annoying when a new christian arrives and attempts to be nice (or not) but can't help themselves from throwing a self-righteous zinger or two into their first post. The recent "Bonnie Affair" comes to mind. She posted a time or two how sorry she was for our suffering at the hands of christians. Then, she just HAD to add a zinger that said that we were stupid for denying god, etc. My other pet peeve in actual debates is when we make a good point and it's just ignored by the christian. The ongoing "Andy Flom Ordeal" is a case-in-point. Andy Flom went on and on about closed-shelled clam fossils on Mt. Everest. Once several people provided good, scientific reasons for these high altitude clams Andy Flom clammed up. I don't recall Andy Flom saying, "Oh, I guess that's not good evidence for creationism or a world-wide flood. I'll stop using it". Good topic Pitchu. Posted by: chefranden Feb 6 2004, 07:43 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 5 2004, 11:06 PM) Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? Jay, Of course these things all occur in the general population. They occur in me. The point is that xians are supposed to be new people, significantly more righteous (not just self-righteous) than me, a hindu, a muslim, ect. However, there is no evidence of this new righteousness, is there. chef Posted by: Loren Feb 6 2004, 08:32 AM QUOTE (Tocis @ Feb 5 2004, 11:20 PM) I'd summarize what bothers me as "generic and utter dishonesty". Examples include the well-known pseudo-scientific "proofs" for babblical creationism, accusing others of doing what they themselves routinely do, and declaring themselves to be the victors of a debate when in fact the debate ended long ago, when they refused to even consider anything that would contradict their fundie worldview. In complete agreement here. Posted by: Buddy4me17 Feb 6 2004, 08:45 AM QUOTE (Reality Amplifier @ Feb 5 2004, 11:41 PM) Also, those invisible mental-shielding helmets that I've seen deflect all logic, evidence and reason which would otherwise have them sincerely re-examine their worldview bug me. Typically only hardcore fundies wear those... That helmet? You can see it here: http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/bibleharness.html Posted by: Loren Feb 6 2004, 09:35 AM Bibleharness: Buddy, I like you! My kind of heretic! Posted by: Matthew Feb 6 2004, 03:09 PM A more or less equal combination of all of the above irritates me to no end about Christians but if I absolutely had to single out an particular characteristic that drives the proverbial stake through the heart, it would probably be the arrogance of many Christians, especially their apologists. I tend to hate apologists more than any other group. Apologists act like they're the only humans capable of being rational and if you're not a Christian, you're a hopelessly bumbling moron. They act like apologetics is insermountable and if you fail to refute it to their satisfaction, they then declare you have a secret sin or sinful life to hide and arrogantly pass judgement on you. Matthew Posted by: pitchu Feb 6 2004, 05:57 PM What I find fascinating at this point is that, other than "Other", the category getting the most votes is "Self-Righteous Assault on Us" while right below that category is "Naked Hate Assault on Us," with zero votes. Does this mean the naked hatred attack is more dismissable because it's crazy? Or is it that it's kinda fun? Does self-righteousness get more juices flowing than hatred? What's going on with this? Posted by: Reach Feb 6 2004, 06:20 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 6 2004, 05:57 PM) What I find fascinating at this point is that, other than "Other", the category getting the most votes is "Self-Righteous Assault on Us" while right below that category is "Naked Hate Assault on Us," with zero votes. Does this mean the naked hatred attack is more dismissable because it's crazy? Or is it that it's kinda fun? Does self-righteousness get more juices flowing than hatred? What's going on with this? pitchu, I don't think so. I voted for Self-Righteous Assault on Us. I was either the first or second to cast a vote. It's important to remember, we can look at the total results of previous votes before we cast our own. I want to point something out if I may. Judge the following as a group. I think these are so similar that they are simply hard to distinguish from each other. From my perspective they pretty much define the same thing. Notice the word "Assault" in each one. I think that's a key. These options may be somewhat redundant. No offense. Self-Righteous Assault on Us Naked Hate Assault on Us Assault on Races, Groups, Etc. Now look at these as a group. While not as similar as the three above, we could call them "cousins." Repititiveness Parroting Honestly, I noticed this when the topic broke but I didn't think there was any way to edit it so I never mentioned anything, figuring people can vote how they want to. There will always be vile people who get a charge out of gross behaviour but I do believe this answers your question if I've made myself clear. If not, let me know and I'll try again. Just a case of options being too similar. peace to you sister, reach Posted by: pitchu Feb 6 2004, 06:54 PM reach, I think there are distinctive differences in these. Stylistically, a naked hate assault is directed very specifically at us, has elements of horror, bald condemnation to hell, other curses, disbelief at our wickedness or that such a site is allowed to exist at all, and has a most wild-eyed cast to it. Conversely, self-righteous assault most often aggrandizes the status of the poster and the poster's relationship with god/jesus, is replete with inferences and implications rather than direct statements, and has a tone that's assured and cool. Groups other than us I listed separately because that implies being more bugged out of altruistic/societal concerns than self-defense of any kind. Somebody here correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand parroting to be the act of referring to, or quoting from, another source, sometimes with little or no additions by the one posting. While repetitiveness I understand to be returning to the same point over and over with no concern for, or addressing of, what might have been presented in between. Posted by: Reach Feb 6 2004, 07:09 PM pitchu, I most certainly agree with all that you've said here. These distinctives, as varied as they most certainly are, still, with a ballot of this size and no option for multiple choices makes for a very complicated decision in the voting process. I wished to draw your attention to the similarities. That's all. Recognizing some similarity does not detract at all from the essence of these horrid behaviours. I should add that in no way did I wish to convey a sense that I am trivializing any of this. Your own visual acuity is quite sharp because of your proximity to this and experience with all this wretchedness aimed at you. reach Posted by: pitchu Feb 6 2004, 07:21 PM reach, Thanks for both the affirmation of my intent and the organizational tip. When I do another poll, I'll try to pick a topic wherein I don't have a blood-boiling reaction to the unique irritations of every single-assed thing. Posted by: Reach Feb 6 2004, 07:40 PM pitchu, I know my apology counts for little here. In this arena, I've really no experience to draw from. Married to an atheist man I dearly loved, for 16 years, we never had this to deal with. Perhaps it was his silence on what he believed that prevented him and/or us from being targeted for assault. I don't know what it was but we were sheltered from this hatred. All I can say is that I offer my sincerest apology. If it ever comes to battle or war, I will stand with this community, next to you, on your side. reach Posted by: pitchu Feb 6 2004, 07:45 PM I believe you would, reach. You have nothing to apologize for. (Can't wait to try that brownie recipe, by the way.) Good night to you. See ya tomorrow. Posted by: fortunehooks Feb 6 2004, 09:00 PM i dislike wasting to much time,and talking about a subject that they will not honestly research for themselves. after all,they have some great faith to fall back on. nice topic ms.pitchu. Posted by: pitchu Feb 7 2004, 07:26 AM QUOTE (fortunehooks @ Feb 6 2004, 09:00 PM) after all,they have some great faith to fall back on. Y'know, Hooks, I've yet to figure out how one is supposed to debate Faith. Posted by: Jay Feb 7 2004, 12:03 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 6 2004, 07:43 AM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 5 2004, 11:06 PM) Just out of curiousity, are these things that you find to be unique to Christians, or do people do these very same things in other contexts? Jay, Of course these things all occur in the general population. They occur in me. The point is that xians are supposed to be new people, significantly more righteous (not just self-righteous) than me, a hindu, a muslim, ect. However, there is no evidence of this new righteousness, is there. chef That is a really good point, and it disappoints me that my fellow Christians sometimes behave less like Christ than non-Christians... Posted by: chefranden Feb 7 2004, 12:16 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 02:03 PM) That is a really good point, and it disappoints me that my fellow Christians sometimes behave less like Christ than non-Christians... It is not merely disappointing, it is evidence that fundamental doctrinal expectations -- new birth, filled with the spirit -- are ineffective, or mere fantasy. Posted by: Starflier Feb 7 2004, 03:18 PM What bugs me the most? Since I've been on these forums, the ones flying or jumping or crawling around in my house that have proliferated since I joined this site. Before I got on here I didn't have all these pesky fruit flies, gnats, fleas, spiders/webs, etc. all over me & in my house. I don't even own a pet & this a new house. Is this what they called manifesting our own reality or what? Like thoughts become things? Or am I just buggy or merely bugged? I may have to get off these forums to get rid of the bugs in my house. If I go back to painting pictures or furniture instead, I probably won't have so many things I'm reading on here bugging me. Sounds like a plan to me. Posted by: Reality Amplifier Feb 7 2004, 05:01 PM Oh, I forgot! Their ability to do this is annoying. Posted by: pitchu Feb 7 2004, 06:14 PM Buddy, Re-Amp, The Bibleharness and the cartoon are so great and funny. Thank you. Posted by: Jay Feb 7 2004, 08:37 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 7 2004, 12:16 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 02:03 PM) That is a really good point, and it disappoints me that my fellow Christians sometimes behave less like Christ than non-Christians... It is not merely disappointing, it is evidence that fundamental doctrinal expectations -- new birth, filled with the spirit -- are ineffective, or mere fantasy. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the claims made by such people (that they have been reborn and filled with the Spirit) are false... Posted by: chefranden Feb 7 2004, 08:48 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 10:37 PM) QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 7 2004, 12:16 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 02:03 PM) That is a really good point, and it disappoints me that my fellow Christians sometimes behave less like Christ than non-Christians... It is not merely disappointing, it is evidence that fundamental doctrinal expectations -- new birth, filled with the spirit -- are ineffective, or mere fantasy. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the claims made by such people (that they have been reborn and filled with the Spirit) are false... Then how are they "fellow Christians"? Are you saying that the spirit doesn't fill those who are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? The responsibility is on the spirit to do the filling, and the changing. That is does not do so is evidence that it cannot do so. If you put the responsibility on the believer, then HS and its other 2 parts is unnecessary. Posted by: Jay Feb 8 2004, 06:04 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 7 2004, 08:48 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 10:37 PM) QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 7 2004, 12:16 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 7 2004, 02:03 PM) That is a really good point, and it disappoints me that my fellow Christians sometimes behave less like Christ than non-Christians... It is not merely disappointing, it is evidence that fundamental doctrinal expectations -- new birth, filled with the spirit -- are ineffective, or mere fantasy. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the claims made by such people (that they have been reborn and filled with the Spirit) are false... Then how are they "fellow Christians"? They are likely 'fellow Christians' in name only. Not all who claim Christ are of Christ. However, I cannot see into someone's heart to know if they are indeed of Christ. That is why I said 'perhaps'. If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. However, if they are filled with the Spirit of God, that change in behavior is not of their own doing. Not all people (and I am beginning to think that not even a majority of people) who go to church every week and say certain catch phrases are in Christ. They may call themselves Christians, and they may even stand next to me in the worship sevice, but that does not mean that the Spirit dwells in them. And now, it appears that I have hijacked this thread...I'm sorry...please carry on with the original topic... Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 07:59 AM Christian smugness, self righteousness, and righteous indignation grate the worst on me. Pick any moment in time and it's "Don't we desperately need a revival of the Spirit just about now?" I think the test of true Christianity should be how willingly they would forfeit their eternal mansion to a poor, unenlightened, unsaved soul. A cosmic permanent Trading Spaces. What a generous Christian impulse that would be. I think Possle Paul said something to that effect. Posted by: bob Feb 8 2004, 08:06 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 06:04 AM) Perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the claims made by such people (that they have been reborn and filled with the Spirit) are false... They are likely 'fellow Christians' in name only. If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. However, if they are filled with the Spirit of God, that change in behavior is not of their own doing. Not all people (and I am beginning to think that not even a majority of people) who go to church every week and say certain catch phrases are in Christ. They may call themselves Christians, and they may even stand next to me in the worship sevice, but that does not mean that the Spirit dwells in them. I am jumping in the middle here with out even seeing what is going on in previous replies. Just felt the need to comment on Jay's remarks. Jay, of course the claims of some people that they have been reborn, or filled with the spirit, are false. The claims of all people that they have been reborn or filled are false. There is no new birth or spirit. I base that statement on past experience only. I claimed both for myself for over 20 years. I have never even once met anyone who claimed a rebirth or spirit filledness that showed any signs of being possessed by a supernatural, loving, being. Therefore, I can safely assume that no such thing exists as rebirth or spirit filledness. Christians are christians in name only. Anyone who believes in the biblical Jesus and the biblical god are christians, regardless of how they act. QUOTE If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. If you could just give me a concrete description of how this supposed spirit filled person will act in contrast to the person, like me, who does not have this spirit filledness, that would help. It is beginning to seem to me, from your statements in this post, that you really are no different than any other fundy. You began to sound to me like you were a thinker, but now, you are giving the same old tired christian party line; 'A person's not a true christian if they don't act like a true christian'. That requires no thought at all. It reeks of self-righteousness. It gives you and every other believer the label "righteous judge". You can now determine, (if not out loud, as you have done here in this last post, at least in your own mind) who is a believer and who is not, based solely on your observations of their behavior. I am so fucking glad I got out when I did. Now I don't have to constantly worry whether or not I am going to hell. If there is a hell, my seat is reserved. Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 08:20 AM bob, I want to patent a geiger counter for xtianity. Maybe a litmus test would be better. An x-meter, fraud detector, BS tester or whatever you want to call it. The next time you're in church surrounded by throngs of apparent true believers exhibiting the same otherwise undifferentiated fruits of the spirit, you'd be able to detect the fruit that's rotten at the core. All I need are the correct variables to plug into the meter and the amount of tolerance deviation. Are you suggesting that all the fruit is rotten? Posted by: pitchu Feb 8 2004, 08:39 AM The last few posts here remind me of why I go so nuts debating with xians. It starts to feel like the croquet game between Alice and The Red Queen. Every rule changes, every tool changes, and always to the benefit of the Red Queen Xian. I wish I could get it through my head for once and for all that a xian is a xian until any other xian says it can't be known if that xian is a real xian but you can know a real xian by the spirit being in him but you can't judge if the spirit is in him but you can take his word for it but not too much because by their fruits you shall know them but you can't know if the spirit or the devil produced the fruits because the devil wears many disguises but the lord moves in mysterious ways so it could be the devil impersonating a mysterious way that god made an unreal xian seem like a real xian. WTF is anybody supposed to do with this? Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 09:04 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 8 2004, 08:39 AM) WTF is anybody supposed to do with this? Pray!...Pray hard!...Pray harder!....Pray real hard! Maybe, just maybe, if you have a close enough walk with sweet jesus, he'll confide in you who the real genuine articles are. He ain't about to tell the rest of us though. Posted by: Starflier Feb 8 2004, 09:33 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 06:04 AM) Not all who claim Christ are of Christ. However, I cannot see into someone's heart to know if they are indeed of Christ. That is why I said 'perhaps'. If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. However, if they are filled with the Spirit of God, that change in behavior is not of their own doing. Sounds like possession to me. Exorcism anyone? Posted by: bob Feb 8 2004, 09:38 AM QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Feb 8 2004, 08:20 AM) bob, I want to patent a geiger counter for xtianity. Maybe a litmus test would be better. An x-meter, fraud detector, BS tester or whatever you want to call it. The next time you're in church surrounded by throngs of apparent true believers exhibiting the same otherwise undifferentiated fruits of the spirit, you'd be able to detect the fruit that's rotten at the core. All I need are the correct variables to plug into the meter and the amount of tolerance deviation. Are you suggesting that all the fruit is rotten? PW, I think that the tester has already been produced. It's called a "cattle prod". Simply sneak up behind one in church and zap them in the ass. When they yell "What the fuck?", you will know for sure that the spirit of god does not dwell in them. If they yell "thank you Jesus", you got your self a true christian. Posted by: bob Feb 8 2004, 09:47 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 8 2004, 08:39 AM) I wish I could get it through my head for once and for all that a xian is a xian until any other xian says it can't be known if that xian is a real xian but you can know a real xian by the spirit being in him but you can't judge if the spirit is in him but you can take his word for it but not too much because by their fruits you shall know them but you can't know if the spirit or the devil produced the fruits because the devil wears many disguises but the lord moves in mysterious ways so it could be the devil impersonating a mysterious way that god made an unreal xian seem like a real xian. Thanks pitchu, for translating so the rest of us can finally understand. All along, all I have been hearing is, "blah blah blah blah blah blah. Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 09:53 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 8 2004, 08:39 AM) I wish I could get it through my head for once and for all that a xian is a xian until any other xian says it can't be known if that xian is a real xian but you can know a real xian by the spirit being in him but you can't judge if the spirit is in him but you can take his word for it but not too much because by their fruits you shall know them but you can't know if the spirit or the devil produced the fruits because the devil wears many disguises but the lord moves in mysterious ways so it could be the devil impersonating a mysterious way that god made an unreal xian seem like a real xian. Pitchu, I loved that. May I quote you? Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 09:55 AM QUOTE (bob @ Feb 8 2004, 09:38 AM) I think that the tester has already been produced. It's called a "cattle prod". Crap, there goes my market! Posted by: Starflier Feb 8 2004, 10:00 AM QUOTE (bob @ Feb 8 2004, 08:06 AM) I have never even once met anyone who claimed a rebirth or spirit filledness that showed any signs of being possessed by a supernatural, loving, being. Therefore, I can safely assume that no such thing exists as rebirth or spirit filledness. QUOTE Neither have I. Tho I've definitely experienced the violent, non-loving opposite in two men who were formerly nice, normal people. One, a Christian, was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, the now deceased other, a Jew, with dementia/Alzheimer's. If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. If you could just give me a concrete description of how this supposed spirit filled person will act in contrast to the person, like me, who does not have this spirit filledness, that would help. It is beginning to seem to me, from your statements in this post, that you really are no different than any other fundy. You began to sound to me like you were a thinker, but now, you are giving the same old tired christian party line; 'A person's not a true christian if they don't act like a true christian'. That requires no thought at all. It reeks of self-righteousness. It gives you and every other believer the label "righteous judge". You can now determine, (if not out loud, as you have done here in this last post, at least in your own mind) who is a believer and who is not, based solely on your observations of their behavior. I am so fucking glad I got out when I did. Now I don't have to constantly worry whether or not I am going to hell. If there is a hell, my seat is reserved. I'd like to read that description too. "Righteous judge" is right on. But then it stands to reason if one is possessed of Jesus' (god's) spirit, well....it's written he's the judge of the living & dead. In other words, they come to believe they ARE god-Jesus or proxies for him. That's the basis of the Catholic priesthood & papacy in fact. It happens every time as I've observed it. They "own" the judgmental Jesus but refuse to own the part of him that said to give everything they own away to poorer people, thus impoverishing themselves. The Vatican's been one of the richest entity on earth for centuries. So "filled" doesn't cut it since they judge which parts of him to own & which to disown. [/QUOTE][QUOTE] Posted by: Starflier Feb 8 2004, 10:03 AM Looks like I need to work on getting my replies to come out right. That post was too confusing. Sorry folks. Posted by: Jay Feb 8 2004, 11:02 AM QUOTE (bob @ Feb 8 2004, 08:06 AM) QUOTE If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not. If you could just give me a concrete description of how this supposed spirit filled person will act in contrast to the person, like me, who does not have this spirit filledness, that would help. It is beginning to seem to me, from your statements in this post, that you really are no different than any other fundy. You began to sound to me like you were a thinker, but now, you are giving the same old tired christian party line; 'A person's not a true christian if they don't act like a true christian'. That requires no thought at all. It reeks of self-righteousness. It gives you and every other believer the label "righteous judge". You can now determine, (if not out loud, as you have done here in this last post, at least in your own mind) who is a believer and who is not, based solely on your observations of their behavior. I am so fucking glad I got out when I did. Now I don't have to constantly worry whether or not I am going to hell. If there is a hell, my seat is reserved. I understand your criticism. And it is a good one. As unbelievers, I have no doubt that looking at Christians is both humorous and frustrating at the same time. I have the same thoughts myself. I have no litmus test for being a Christian, but I can tell you that my reaction from being zapped with a cattle prod is "OUCH!" (I worked on a farm for a while). I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. I am sorry if my previous comments sounded self-righteous. It is actually with great sorrow that I say that not all who claim Christ are of him. It seems from our other discussions here that you do believe that one can observe a set of circumstances and draw conclusions, yet you call me self-righteous when I employ that technique in the same way Jesus did. He said that we would know his followers by their works. Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 11:27 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 11:02 AM) I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. There have been extensive recent fruitful conversations on other threads including this one http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2124&st=0 debating how accurate a measure these characteristics are for gauging a xtian. Too many non-xtians do these things better than the best xtians. Too many xtians fail miserably. Would you judge them as imposters and say their claims are an illusion no matter how heartfelt they are, if they don't bear the fruit? Posted by: bob Feb 8 2004, 11:35 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 11:02 AM) I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. I am sorry if my previous comments sounded self-righteous. It is actually with great sorrow that I say that not all who claim Christ are of him. It seems from our other discussions here that you do believe that one can observe a set of circumstances and draw conclusions, yet you call me self-righteous when I employ that technique in the same way Jesus did. He said that we would know his followers by their works. QUOTE I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Just wondering here Jay, but do you qualify as a christian by your own definition? Do you consistently exhibit the qualities you mentioned? What is your definition of "consistent"?, 100% of the time?, 75%, 50%, 43.6%? Is there a biblical standard that you can apply to yourself and others so an ignorant SOB like me can determine if you and those like you are telling the truth when you say you are a christian? QUOTE It seems from our other discussions here that you do believe that one can observe a set of circumstances and draw conclusions, yet you call me self-righteous when I employ that technique in the same way Jesus did. He said that we would know his followers by their works. Then it is possible for you to know for sure that the person who claims to be a christian, is in fact a christian, simply by observing their behavior. After all, Jesus said... Posted by: TruthWarrior Feb 8 2004, 11:42 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 03:02 PM) I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. Woopie! Then I'm filled with the spirit even though I'm not a christian anymore! All of these attributes are possible just as easily, if not more, among non believers too. And, to be fair, non believers also can be just as corrupt as any bad christians. So it's nothing new, nothing unique, no guarantee that such a "spirit" will last long. Once again all up to people how they want to act, and all under their control, and not by the gods. Is Santa Claus the one who makes me a good boy before Christmas comes? Do I do good purely out of the fear of getting a lump of coal? Do I even need belief in Santa to do good? Posted by: Jay Feb 8 2004, 12:05 PM QUOTE (bob) QUOTE I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Just wondering here Jay, but do you qualify as a christian by your own definition? Well, let me clarify by saying that doing these things do not make some one a Christian or qualify them to be Christians. These things are evidence that someone is filled with the Spirit, but they are not conclusive evidence, and cannot be used to prove someone is filled with the Spirit. QUOTE (bob) Do you consistently exhibit the qualities you mentioned? What is your definition of "consistent"?, 100% of the time?, 75%, 50%, 43.6%? Is there a biblical standard that you can apply to yourself and others so an ignorant SOB like me can determine if you and those like you are telling the truth when you say you are a christian? I consistently live my life that way. I have not set out to measure a percentage of the time that I do those things, and Jesus dd not give us any certain percentage to achieve. But, I could be a fake. For all you know, I could be lying to you. In fact, I could be putting up the world's biggest charade. You have no way to know, and there is no way to prove it, anymore than one could prove they love someone. QUOTE (bob) QUOTE It seems from our other discussions here that you do believe that one can observe a set of circumstances and draw conclusions, yet you call me self-righteous when I employ that technique in the same way Jesus did. He said that we would know his followers by their works. Then it is possible for you to know for sure that the person who claims to be a christian, is in fact a christian, simply by observing their behavior. After all, Jesus said... Well, let me offer a clarifying explanation...If someone claims to be of Christ, and they do not do what he said, then they are not of Christ. If someone does the things he said, they may be of him, but they could be doing those things for other reasons. That is all I can offer you. Posted by: Jay Feb 8 2004, 12:25 PM QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Feb 8 2004, 11:27 AM) There have been extensive recent fruitful conversations on other threads including this one http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2124&st=0 debating how accurate a measure these characteristics are for gauging a xtian. Too many non-xtians do these things better than the best xtians. Too many xtians fail miserably. Would you judge them as imposters and say their claims are an illusion no matter how heartfelt they are, if they don't bear the fruit? Interesting thread, and great question. For sure, if someone does not bear fruit they are not one of Christ's. However, it is not really my mission to sort them out. That is up to Christ do do himself. There was an interesting question posed in the other thread that is germane here: QUOTE (pitchu) Do the Christians here think I have an obligation to sort them out? Or think I have an obligation to take the word of Christian "X" that Christian "Y" falls short of the mark? Then do I have an obligation to tell "Y" she is not a real... oy, oy, oy. No, you have no obligation to do any of those things, and I would encourage you not to do any of them. If you are interested in following Christ, then you should do so. You should not follow Christian X, Y, or J. If you have no interest in following Christ, then I can't imagine what use it would be to sort out people who claim to. Posted by: PriorWorrier Feb 8 2004, 12:28 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 12:05 PM) I could be a fake. For all you know, I could be lying to you. In fact, I could be putting up the world's biggest charade. You have no way to know, and there is no way to prove it, anymore than one could prove they love someone. Jay, For all you know, you could be lying to yourself and you could be a fake without realizing it. Maybe you've been duped. You have no way to know, there is no way to prove it. Even to yourself. Posted by: Reach Feb 8 2004, 12:44 PM QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Feb 8 2004, 12:28 PM) For all you know, you could be lying to yourself and you could be a fake without realizing it. Maybe you've been duped. You have no way to know, there is no way to prove it. Even to yourself. PW~ Are you lying to yourself? Are you a fake without realizing it? Have you been duped? Is there no way to know, to prove it to one's self? Even to yourself? You come across to me as the genuine article. Your humour and sarcasm aside, which I enjoy immensely, btw, yet when you are being serious you seem awfully real and honest to me. reach Posted by: Jay Feb 8 2004, 12:49 PM QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Feb 8 2004, 12:28 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 12:05 PM) I could be a fake. For all you know, I could be lying to you. In fact, I could be putting up the world's biggest charade. You have no way to know, and there is no way to prove it, anymore than one could prove they love someone. Jay, For all you know, you could be lying to yourself and you could be a fake without realizing it. Maybe you've been duped. You have no way to know, there is no way to prove it. Even to yourself. Not being able to prove something, and not being able to know it are two different things, as we demonstrated in a different thread. It is impossible to prove there is no tooth fairy, yet none of us believe in one. It is impossible for me to prove to you that I love my wife, yet I know that I do (and more importantly, she does as well). I cannot prove that I am a Christian, yet I know I am. Will that prove it to you? Of course not. But as a Christian, my responsibility is not to prove to you that I am one, but to live as Christ lived, exhibiting the characteristics I previously mentioned. Posted by: Starflier Feb 8 2004, 01:10 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 12:49 PM) It is impossible for me to prove to you that I love my wife, yet I know that I do (and more importantly, she does as well). I cannot prove that I am a Christian, yet I know I am. Will that prove it to you? Of course not. But as a Christian, my responsibility is not to prove to you that I am one, but to live as Christ lived, exhibiting the characteristics I previously mentioned. You claim "to live as Christ lived"? Meaning the biblical Jesus? Why are you married then? He wasn't. Have you given all your belongings, house, car, investements, cash, etc. to the poor as he taught? Do you go about into the country side, cities & towns preaching & teaching by yourself? Or with your followers & allies? Do you always turn the other cheek? How many times have you changed water into wine? How many people have you healed or raised from the dead? Or are you practicing to learn to do so? Are you in training to learn how to become a physical immortalist or ascend into heaven bodily? What other books besides the Bible have you read about other things Jesus did or said that aren't in the Bible & often contrary to it as related to him & his life or teachings? The Gospel of Thomas? Holy Blood, Holy Grail? The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ? The Gospel of the Essenes? The Lost Years of Jesus? Posted by: chefranden Feb 8 2004, 01:16 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 02:05 PM) Well, let me clarify by saying that doing these things do not make some one a Christian or qualify them to be Christians. These things are evidence that someone is filled with the Spirit, but they are not conclusive evidence, and cannot be used to prove someone is filled with the Spirit ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` I consistently live my life that way. I have not set out to measure a percentage of the time that I do those things, and Jesus dd not give us any certain percentage to achieve. But, I could be a fake. For all you know, I could be lying to you. In fact, I could be putting up the world's biggest charade. You have no way to know, and there is no way to prove it, anymore than one could prove they love someoneThen it is possible for you to know for sure that the person who claims to be a christian, is in fact a christian, simply by observing their behavior. Does the faux-xian know that they are faux, even if they are exhibiting the fruit? Why would some one go through the labor of being fruitful, when they could just as well let the spirit do it? Or are TrueXians lazier than FauXians? (FauXians? I like that! You all may use it ) What good is being a Xian if one can already live a righteous life without and avoid the tax. Do you ever pursue your assertions to see if they are Reductio ad Absurdum? ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Don't avoid the the question please. Do you know if you are TrueXian or FauXian? If you don't want to sound self-righteous, just answer yes I know or no I don't know. You realize of course that you are a heritic, right? None of the churches I've been part of would accept you as a TrueXian. By creed you are FauXian. QUOTE (The Nicene Creed) We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. How do you know that you are being consistent if you don't keep track of your behavior? Consistency is important you say, yet you have no way of knowing if you are consistent! What if God requires 88% and you are only doing 87%? Don't you think you ought to pay attention? It appears that you are disappointed that many Xians don't pay attention, but it is ok if you don't. Posted by: Starflier Feb 8 2004, 01:37 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 8 2004, 11:02 AM) [QUOTE=bob,Feb 8 2004, 08:06 AM] [QUOTE]If someone is filled with the Spirit of God, they should behave differently than someone who is not.[/QUOTE] I would say the characteristics of someone who is filled with the Spirit would be consistent display of the following characteristics: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness, and Self-Control. Untrue, Jay. Jesus was exactly the opposite of these alleged characteristics, in many biblical instances. For starters, enraged, he overturned the money changers tables at the temple entrance. Hardly an exhibition of "patience" or "self-control", let alone "joy, peace, gentleness". He also insulted his mother & denied (disowned) her & his siblings (sisters as I recall) relative to "love" among other things. In the Gospel of Thomas, which never made it into the Bible with the other apostles' writings, he blasphemed & majorly insulted females & feminity altogether saying only males could enter the kingdom of heaven. Not at all a message of love, peace, joy, goodness, kindness....ad nauseam. There's way more but that's enough to make my point. Which mainly is you're making a case for a non-human persona. I'd like to see how many of the characteristics you listed would fly out the window in a nanosecond if your wife were raped & murdered &/or your daughter(s) or your kids kidnapped, your house burned down by an arsonist included & all you owned was destroyed. Or even if only the first or second thing I mentioned occurred. Get a grip, Jay, people (humans) crack for far less than this. Even professed spirit-filled Christians like yourself. SF Posted by: bob Feb 8 2004, 01:38 PM Jay, you know what would be refreshing? This would be refreshing; a christian makes some statements, then when confronted with the contradictions in those statements, admits that they are contradictions, and admits that they really are like the rest of us and don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about because the bible gives such poor explanations and can be used to justify so many contradictory beliefs. That would be refreshing. QUOTE I cannot prove that I am a Christ |