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Posted by: JP1283 Feb 5 2005, 04:42 PM

I don't understand why Jesus would throw in the unforgivable sin into the Bible without even an explanation as to what it really is. The idea of an unforgivable sin has troubled so many people (myself included) that it seems to me God would be very irresponsible as to just kinda throw it in there without giving a precise definition thus causing a lot of suffering. Also, to me, it seems very contradictory. I've always been told that God would never hold a grudge, yet "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin" sounds like a grudge to me. Some Christians say that it refers to a hardened heart, thus they will never have forgiveness and that it why it is an eternal sin. The Bible just doesn't explain it that way.

Posted by: Clergicide Feb 5 2005, 05:05 PM

I'm posing a similar question http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2668&st=0

Only I'm trying illustrate that by definition it makes all sin unforgivable. Blasphemy includes thoughts and actions. Therefore any thought or action that is in direct opposition to the Holy Ghost (the source of virtue in a person) would be a hell-worthy trespass. Since virtue covers round about all sins, it would follow that no sin could be forgiven.

Posted by: NIGHTFLIGHT Feb 5 2005, 05:06 PM

I spent several years fearing that I had commited that sin. I dropped out of college because of it.

Posted by: JP1283 Feb 5 2005, 05:23 PM

QUOTE (NIGHTFLIGHT @ Feb 5 2005, 08:06 PM)

I spent several years fearing that I had commited that sin. I dropped out of college because of it.

For me it was several months, and it was all because of someone that took advantage of my OCD when I was younger that basically said "Don't committ this sin, it is not forgiven." That's horrible that it made you drop out of school. Again, I ask, why would God, knowing all the suffering it was going to cause, throw that in there sort of as an "Oh, by the way..." statement?

Posted by: SuicydeAlley Feb 5 2005, 05:46 PM

*shrugs*

Can anyone really put it down in a nutshell?
I've been asking this question to friends, no one can seem to explain it, they couldn't ever since I was little.
It would be nice to have it spelled out for us 'gold mining neandrathals'.

Posted by: spamandham Feb 5 2005, 09:14 PM

The unforgivable sin was to attribute Jesus' miracles to demons. It's unforgivable, because biblegod is a petty tyrant. The Old Testament made that pretty clear.

Posted by: Madame M Feb 6 2005, 06:17 AM

Well, don't forget this passage from Hebrews 6, that indicates another "unforgivable" sin. The "sin" of "falling away".

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This passage indicates that the offense is against Jesus (Son of God) and not the Holy Spirit. Which in some ways contradicts the passage that states that blasphemy against Jesus is forgivable, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable.

So there are actually two unpardonable sins- blasphemy and falling away.

Then there is the third unforgivable sin... not believing in Jesus and accepting His gift of salvation.

So now we have 3 unforgivable sins:

1.) Never believing
2.) Blasphemy of the HG
3.) Falling away

When looked at together, you will note there is an element to these things that brings about control and isolation.

1.) Never believing- those who don't believe are "different", not part of us. Not trustworthy. Kind of like that line in the Matrix where Morpheus and Neo are walking in a group of people, and Morpheus states that until someone's mind is freed, they are an enemy. In Christiandom, until someone is saved, they are the child of Satan.

2.) Blasphemy of the HG- keeps people from expressing ideas outside accepted beliefs. For instance, I attended a church many years ago, in which the pastor kept the congregants under control with threats of "blasphemy". Whenever any new or strange teaching occured or new manifestation, he would say that any questioning of this "new move of the Holy Spirit" was blasphemy- even thinking anything negative. Blasphemy keeps people afraid to question and explore to far outside the circle of belief.

3.) Falling Away- this keeps people afraid to leave, even if there is abuse. If they "fall away" they can never come back. In the larger community of Christianity, this keeps the average Christian from leaving Christianity. In controlling churches, this may even keep them from leaving a specific church or denomination. This last "sin" is essentially the lock on the door once someone has become a Christian.

Posted by: Reach Feb 6 2005, 11:31 AM

What is the unforgivable sin? The rejection of Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Saviour, the Son of God, by hardening one's heart against the wooing of the Holy Spirit. One can "fall away" or one can never have believed in the first place. Either way, it makes no difference in the identification of "the sin."

Some Christian links:

http://net-burst.net/hope/sin.htm

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html

http://www.equip.org/free/DU250.htm

Continuing to struggle with these types of issues (this very question and the subsequent implication of spending an eternity in hell) suggests a reflexive response to what Loren calls neurological sabotage, which is precisely what Christianity did to us.

Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 6 2005, 02:37 PM

QUOTE (JP1283 @ Feb 5 2005, 07:42 PM)

Irresponsible? Heaven's no!

The purpose of an undefined unforgivable sin is to create the anxiety you are showing right now. It works perfectly.

You wouldn't deny God the entertainment value in watching His followers squirm, would you?

Posted by: Clergicide Feb 6 2005, 05:45 PM

QUOTE (Reach @ Feb 6 2005, 02:31 PM)

I'm testing this one on the Fundies on one of their webboards, and so far thier responses are in line with those links. At one time some of the Catholic Fathers were toying with the notions as I presented them, that any sin in direct opposition of a virtue would constitute a sin against the Holy Ghost. The Catholic church outlines 3 categories of that sin, and only one of them would be identifying the Holy Spirit as Satan. Pretending to be a Fundie that is having trouble with someone I am witnessing, I'm hoping to at least flesh out a contradiction in doctrine with my Q & A.

Posted by: Reach Feb 7 2005, 05:21 AM

QUOTE (I Broke Free @ Feb 6 2005, 02:37 PM)

QUOTE (JP1283 @ Feb 5 2005, 07:42 PM)

I don't understand why Jesus would throw in the unforgivable sin into the Bible without even an explanation as to what it really is... <snip>... thus causing a lot of suffering.

Absolutely! Anxiety and squirming in the pews. Fear that grips you and keeps you IN the church. And if one is able to get away, leaving the church is one matter but freeing one's self from the shackles of fear is another thing entirely.

--------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (Clergicide @ Feb 6 2005, 05:45 PM)

At one time some of the Catholic Fathers were toying with the notions...

There seems to be no end to the number of things the Catholic Church has toyed with. Good luck in your endeavors to expose the contradictions in doctrine.

Posted by: Clergicide Feb 8 2005, 12:00 PM

QUOTE (Reach @ Feb 7 2005, 08:21 AM)

QUOTE (Clergicide @ Feb 6 2005, 05:45 PM)

At one time some of the Catholic Fathers were toying with the notions...

There seems to be no end to the number of things the Catholic Church has toyed with. Good luck in your endeavors to expose the contradictions in doctrine.

LoL too true

Anyway the discussion is http://www.theologyweb.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47158 for anyone interested. At this point I'm hoping that I have them fishing around for the scripture that supports my 'neighbors' position. ;P