Sorry Desiree, there is no way to prove or disprove this. This is no evidence available to make arguments for this either way. Proving or disproving the existence of God is an insoluble problem. Theists’ belief based on faith. Non-theists stand on a range of skeptical grounds (from Atheism, agnosticism, to non-theism) based on reasoning from the available evidence, or rather the lack thereof.

Now if you have evidence that might sway the skeptics here, you are welcome to present it. However, I'm afriad you might find it difficult to find some...

No, actually I don't know what. I don't know that God gave me my intelligence, or you your intelligence, or anybody his or her intelligence. Unless you or somebody else can prove this assertion, it's an entirely speculative argument.

Hmmmmmmm. There is no way to prove God isn't real. There is no way to prove God is real. Proof is not predicated on evidence. Got it? Now you can waste your time trying to prove he is real if you like...

Chicken-butt?

No, I don't know that. Neither do you. If it makes you feel better to think that, good for you. Unless you can positively prove it, forgive us if we remain un-swayed on our skeptical grounds.

So you say. As the Muslim says of Allah, and the Sikh says of the God concept in Sikhism, and as I say of Poindexter the Holy, the Invisible Magic Gnome who lives on the Dark Side of the Moon and who is the real Creator of the Universe, our loving God, and the Master of the Universe.

Desiree, do you believe that you can prove that god does not exist? Are you saying that I believe I can prove god does not exist. How do you know that's what I believe. You do not even know me. I bet, you do not even know many Atheists.

What does that mean anyway? "Humans have reached the point where they are now like... I can prove that you (god) do not exist". Humans have done no such thing. In fact, the majority of humans believe in one god or another.

Please explain. Did you know that there is a positive correlation between non-belief and education. Funny it's usually the more ignorant that believe in a god.

Well if your wrong about a simple thing like this then who knows what else you might be wrong about.

Many christians say this. Few deliver.

is right. He was simply expressing what religion (christianity specifically) teaches.

Name me one of these 500 people.

The bible is a collection of books. It is not a person named jesus. Jesus did not right the bible. Of all the people who did right the bible it is most likely that not even one of them spoke to or even saw jesus.

When jesus talks to you, what does he say. Does he speak in english?

Please do get started. Please say something that we have not heard and in many cases preached 15,000 times before.

What a horror to use the intelligence god gave us! He gave it to us so we could remain dumb. That's just real smart...

Have you proven that little flying elves aren't real?

Why does that sound like Santa? "He knows if you've been bad or good..." You know, that right there does seem to make children behave. Hmmmmmmm......

Desi, if you recall you suggested that we all go out and get a bible so we could "check it out." I was merely informing you that I have more Christian literature in my home than your public library, and I have more than "checked out" the bible. Your presumption stinks of Christian arrogance coupled with stupidity. Read the posts of the people here my girl, I guarantee you will find that many of our members know the bible better than your preacher.

(by YHWH_why_didn't_you_bless_her_with_an_IQ_over_75?)

Oh yes, you mean the class of intelligent, rational, academic minded human beings. How dare they read the bible like a book? Let’s burn them all at the stake!

(by Abraham's_Child)

Oh right, the morons. Yes I've heard of them. Don't they eat crackers on Sundays and believe that they are eating the flesh of God? Poor dumb beasts, are there any physicians working on a cure for their affliction?

(by YHWH's_Little_Angel)

Don't worry Desi, there isn't much of a mystery. Your Jesus Christ probably never existed, it's as simple as that. And if he did, it is likely that he was a political, social, and/or theological reformer who paid the ultimate price for his rebellion. Consider Jesus "demystified"; and I didn't even need the Holy Spirit to do it. Wow, this Jamaican Blue Mountain coffee really makes a man efficient.

(by Sweet_But_Misguided_Girl)

I think the Vatican might already have them. It would explain all of the ring kissing that goes on over there. They are trying to get a look at the Pope's super secret, super Holy, Catholic Christ decoder ring.

(by Neil)

But Neil, "you seem to be an intelligent young man that God can really work marvelous things through." Why don't you just smash your head into a brick wall until you suffer from massive head trauma, and then perhaps you can forget about all of these silly intellectual objections to Christianity and return to the fold? God has a plan for you Neil.

(by Neil)

This reads like a Christian story book, ages 6-12. Thanks for that um, information Desi. Again I'm quite sure most if not all of us were aware of this already. Actually your post reminded me of a 6th grader trying to teach astrophysics to a PhD at NASA. Entertaining, but not terribly informative sweetie. But A+ for effort; you are such a good Christian robot!

(by well_meaning_pre-teen)

I was being facetious.

Really... I think theres about 3 billion people out there who would beg to differ.
What do you want God to do? Come out of the sky with a big megaphone screaming "I told you so, I told you so!". How obvious do you really want God's presence to be? Was your faith so weak as to rely on physical sight? Are the testimonies of billions of Christians around the world not enough evidence?
In the words of dc talk, my faith is the evidence of things unseen. I know if I share my own personal experiences of God with you, you'll dismiss it as a load of bullshit. But how can you explain a feeling that goes all around the world and changes so many lives?

Right...rape and degrading women...In all my reading, I've never found anything that suggests God supports rape. Please enlighten me.

...Riigghht...I'll just play along with that statement...
Aside from historical evidence, logic would unravel that theory pretty quickly. Do you think somebody was just sitting on their back porch one day and thought "You know what? I'm going to make up some guy named Jesus and spread a story that he died on a cross for our sins. It's gonna be great!" This guy would have had to known the Scriptures not only word for word, but be extremly lucky, because there are prophecies that Jesus fulfilled that are not even mentioned in the new testement.

....okay, now it's kind of hard to play along with that statement, because theres not even the slightest bit of truth in that. Look at the dinosaur. If you compared the odds of those things evolving from a single cell and there being a God that made it, it's kind of hard to deny that the odds would overwhelmingly point to the existence of a higher power.

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. -John 14:12

Are you really so blind? Christians around the world are doing what Jesus did. Not always in the same way, but they're doing it. What exactly do you mean when you imply that we are not doing what He did? Yeah, we're not being crucified on crosses, but look at that verse again. Jesus said that we will do what he has done doing, but not everything that he has done. We are healing the sick. We are feeding the poor. We are offering salvation to the world. This verse really does nothing to prove your point.

Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. -Matthew 21:21

This promise also remains. What you don't seem to understand about that passage is that God isn't going to let us just throw mountains in the sea for no reason. God told us not to put him to the test. If we command God to cause a fig tree to wither or a mountain to jump into the sea just so we can be sure he exist, I imagine he wouldn't be to happy. Who are we to tell God what to do? Jesus told us that whatever we ask for in his name will be done for us. If you put God to the test by telling him to throw a mountain in the sea, is that in Jesus' name or in yours? Honestly now, how would that benefit God? It would only mean that we are telling him what to do, and he becomes our plaything to throw mountains around whenever we want him to.

Smarter,wiser,more intellectual, more intelligent.........whatever.

And yet the obvious answer eludes you. Curious.

Then it's not a very good book, is it?

Mr. Neil, Touche!!

You see, I guess believing in Jesus and accepting Him might be one of the biggest leaps of faith an unbeliever might take. He just believes that Jesus came into the world to die for him/her even when he doesn't see how..........but he/she just believes that it is true. That's what salvation is about. Believing. It sounds simple and hard. But that's it.

No, you have to know that you are a sinner (even if you are 7yrs old cos we were all born into sin, and as the Bible says, are filthy rags......).
Yes, they brought sin into the world by that act of disobedience. And don't forget that the fruit of wich they ate is that of good and evil. They became aware of good and evil and could choose between the two(this is the way I understand it Mr. Neil).
Yes, since God is Omniscient He definitely knew that man was going to fall. But what was wrong with Him still be angry about it? And how was the Fall part of God's plan. The plan came after the Fall not before. That's when God originated it.

I couldn't agree more. Now turn that statement around, point it at yourself and then we will be getting somewhere.

(by Desi)

Does that include arrogant, presumptuous, degenerate apologists? Let's hope so. See you in Hell Desi.

(by Believer_Amen)

How about a single, genuine extra-biblical reference to Jesus Christ that was written during his alleged life time? Surely God could have inspired a single literate human being to have taken notice of his son, who was also allegedly God, and write so much as a blurb about him. The fact that there is a gaping hole 80 years wide in the secular history of Jesus Christ, and a gaping hole 30-40 years wide in the Christian history of Jesus Christ is a pretty serious whoopsie daisy by old YHWH. Why did YHWH make it appear like his sons life was an evolution of old myths? Why make it so hard to believe that a historical personage named Jesus Christ even existed, never mind that he was God? Is he testing our faith? Or is God such a degenerate fuck that he wants some of us not to believe so that he has people to chuck into the lake of fire?

(by Believer)

So what you're saying is that you have to convince yourself that it makes sense, even though it doesn't.

That's insanity.

That's called a fixed bet. If God knew what was going to happen, then it was all part of his plan when he created Adam and Eve. Therefore, he has no reason to be angry, because everything happened as he knew it would.
Your explanation doesn't make sense.

Yes, that's how people describe Christianity. I guess I'm used to that. But Christianity, from begining to end is about FAITH.

So your God purposefully made the bible so that it doesn't make sense? You willingly serve a diety that obscures the truth?!? Who's the father of lies?

I'd love to articulate my own response, but Nietzsche said it better than I ever could:

I have never witnessed any type of soft-drink that actually had genitalia.

So, what you are saying here is that, I have been me ever since I was born, and in order to "get right" with god, I must forsake all that is me?

According to what you believe sin to be, I acquired more "power" over it since walking away from religion.

In several battles during the conquest of Canaan God commands and/or permits the Hebrew men to rape the captive teenage girls (and also commands them to kill children, babies, and pregnant women with the sword). In Numbers 31:18, for example, God tells the men to kill all the men, women, and male children, but to keep alive for themselves all the virgin girls to use as they wish. Then, in verse 25ff, God urges Moses to distribute the spoils of war - including the virgin girls.

Hmm...well, if they are not mentioned in the NT, would you be kind enough to point them out. I myself have extensive theological training (bachelor's level in some areas, master's level in others) - and got it while I was a Christian. I spent years searching the scriptures for a single prophecy that Jesus fulfilled - and I could not find one. Certainly none of the passages that Matthew cites were messianic prophecies, and Paul is just as fast-and-loose with his citations (a homiletical tradition called "midrash", which means telling a new story in an old form or using an old story to mean something new).

Also, as a fiction writer I must tell you that it is surpassingly easy to fabricate a character to fulfill prophecy. An encyclopedic knowledge of scripture is easy to obtain - just read the Bible a few times. I am not suggesting that Jesus was fabricated whole cloth - the reality is much more complex (and that's a whole other post and thread).

Actually, the fossil evidence completely contradicts the Bible - creation did not happen in 6 days, it is not 6,000 years old, there was no global flood or ark carrying all the animals on Earth. This is God's story of how he did it - - - - and yet it's patently false. I guess that about wraps it up for God - or at least, the God of the Bible. Of course, the question of whether there is a higher power is an open one - I'm agnostic on the question, but I like the idea. But that higher power, whatever it may be, is certainly NOT Yahweh or Jesus - at least not as portrayed in the Bible or in Christian doctrine.

If you don't want to see God, you won't. You can easily dismiss any "miracle" or supernatural act as a coincidence, whereas Christians know there is an explanation of supernatural events. But if you don't want to see this stuff, you won't. Trust me, you won't find it on TV much, so if your perception of the world comes through that, then you're right, you probably won't find much evidence of a God.

I see too many "coincidences" and "natural occourances" in my everyday life to believe that it's all happening by chance. You can believe what you want, but I don't believe in coincidence or luck. It takes less faith to believe in God, honestly.

^See answer above^

What Tocis said.

I didn't say anything about jesus. We're talking about dinosaurs. Stay focused.

I didn't claim to have any odds. I'm not making any argument.

Of course! That's obviously the problem!

Dude, enough of your atheist charicatures. You're forgetting the name of this site: EX-CHRISTIANS. Many of us used to believe in a God, but without any fault of our own, we slowly came to the realization that something is fucked up.
We didn't stop believing on our own wills, but rather because we became more educated about the faith. We looked for answers and found things that didn't make sense.

Your representation of us is false. Try arguing without painting us all with your tainted brush.

Wrong. It's so easy to dismiss a naturalistic phenomenon as a "miracle" if you don't want to investigate any further. You can believe that lightning, earthquakes, and disease are the acts of a wrathful god, or you can learn a thing or two about meteorology, plate tectonics, and microbiology.
Learning takes effort. Believing in miracles is easy.

Anyone who wants to take the time to actually discuss these topics with any degree of expertise. It sounds like you're making an excuse for being lazy.

The emotional impact of a story has nothing to do with whether or not a story is true or false. Get that idea out of your head. That doesn't make any sense.

Why do you assume that I do not want to see god? I couldn't care less if there is a god or not. If there is, there is. If there isn't, there isn't. Geez. Stop putting opinions into my mouth. Where have I said that I do not want to believe in god? Your statement merely reveals your belief that the reason anyone does not believe in god is because they do not want to, nothing more.

In your second line you assume supernatural events can, and indeed do, occur. Read what I have written, stop distorting it. I haven't said anywhere in that post that miracles are impossible. What is your point?

You have already assumed miracles (supernatural events) can, and do, occur. Did you actually read my argument?

I currently do not own a television. I haven't watched a TV for months. Stop making straw man arguments.

Assumptions, assumptions... Where have I stated anything which I believe in that post? It is abundantly clear you are making wild assumptions from your own pre-conceived prejudices of atheists and then running wild with them. How would you feel if I did the same to you? I haven't stated a single one of my beliefs in that post. It is obvious you are making up my opinions for me (a straw man argument by definition) then arguing against them. From my post you cannot tell if I am atheist, agnostic, Christian, Muslim... Why are you making up my beliefs for me?

You have patently chosen to ignore my other post on your 'on their back porch' argument. How convenient.

I can postulate any number of reasons why people choose to believe this stuff. Indoctrination, self-delusion... You haven't asked yourself why this same argument applies equally to Muslims, Buddhists and everyone else who is not a Christian. Why? If Christianity is true, Muslims, Buddhists and everyone else is wrong. But a Muslim's personal experience tells him that Allah is there. Personal experience is not enough I am afraid to say.

First, thanks for thinking the worst of me. I thought we were having a simple discussion but obviously I have conveyed deep contempt for your personal experiences by asking a few simple, non-inflammatory questions. Mate, it is obvious that if you engage in a debate on a site where there are atheists, there will be a conflict between their interpretation of your experiences, and your own interpretation. If this is a problem for you, why did you come here? Don't get on your high horse and start throwing wild accusations about when you're feeling threatened. It is disgraceful to do so. Please point out where I have attempted to diminish your experiences. I would never dream of doing so. Look at my other posts. I have even refused to post on occasions because of this very fact.

Oh your god! You are just too funny and intellegent too.

You mention in-dwelling of the holy spirit and then say others that rant are lunatics!

I think Lokmer hinted about understanding the culture when these stories were made. Have you ever read Greek Mythology? Greek Gods were worshipped as if they were real and we know now they were nothing but stories.

The power of Myth can be life changing. Sometimes it is useful to create something that you can focus outside yourself to heal and understand yourself. Of course, none of it is suppose to be taken literal, but there is a deeper meaning in the stories of the ancients.

The Egyptians were the most hygenic people in the ancient world. Their workers were kept in hygenic conditions - dirty people were not welcome in Egyptian society. Were the Hebrews so stupid that after 400 years of being in Egypt, with their first generations living among the royalty, that they lived like anarchical pigs? If that's the case, why in the world would they copy the Egyptian dietary laws (what we call "Kosher" now, laid out in Deuteronomy)? Are we to believe that they had no contact with the egyptians to such an extent that they were pathetic, mud-ridden barbarians who didn't know not to take a dump in the middle of the camp next to the food prep areas? In the midst of the most advanced society of the ancient world (the Egyptians even practiced brain surgery), they were so ghettoized that they lived like animals?

That's awfully anti-semetic, not to mention naieve. I'll leave alone the ridiculous notion that Yahweh is "love" for the time being.

And what is a supernatural event, exactly? Define that word... supernatural.

Yes I see. It would have to be simple wouldn't it. As Paul implies you would have to be a fool, to believe it.
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I remember when it seemed a big deal. Such a big deal that I went off to preacher school. Ha! That is one on me ain't it. You know what they say, "too soon old, too late smart.
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Ya, like thinking. Let's see if I put spotted sticks over by my gold fish they will have spotted babies.

Thanks, hey, I only graduated from bible college 2nd in my class by .04 points.

Praise Zeus.
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How does that happen? Genetic defect? Kind of like a dog being condemned for having a tail?
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Really? But he hangs out with Satan. Kind of snooty don't ya think?
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Wrong! (1 Samuel 15:1-3) Unless of course murdering babies isn't a sin. If that is the case then murdering babies is one of those things I used to do that I don't have give up, right? WWJD? Murder babies. I get it. Sounds like fun. Maybe, I'm a sinner because I don't murder enough babies these days, and because I like fig newtons.
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I guess then you haven't read Ezekiel 18 yet then?

I guess then that God doesn't really know what a sacrifice is then? Like when I sacrifice my lamb, my lamb is gone. You know, "you can't sacrifice your lamb and have it too." God ties a string to his slug when he sticks it in the slot machine.
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I like how you made believe bold like that, as if no one ever heard that one before. Boldness is very compelling, rather like Bush's bold face lies compel the fools of this nation. Why do I have to believe? Must be the string and the slug trick, eh? The alleged sacrifice wasn't enough, but if I pretend it was enough then it will be, eh? Ok, I get it.

Ok,

"Dear Jesus, I would have believed you are the son of God if you had gotten me that bike when I was 10. It isn't like I asked for a Hummer, and remember when Zack broke his leg and I asked you to make it stop hurting so much for him, and that you could make my leg hurt instead and you didn't, and remember when Cerise asked you make that preacher guy quit raping her and you didn't (Oh I forgot, you aren't against rape being a reward for your guys) and when I prayed that you would not let the Iraqis be bombed into the stone age and they were. So you see I don't trust you all that much. Therefore, if you came into this world to save me from sin I don't really trust you to do it.

Who is it then that saved you from the sin of murdering already born babies? That is the one that gets me Jesus old buddy. I really can't stand being in the presence of cold blooded baby killer. Therefore, I'm sure you can see that to ask you to "Please cleanse all of my sins today and save me from the shackles of sin" would be kind of funny causing me to laugh and choke on one of these peanuts, which may be what you are after since you missed me with all those bombs and bullets. Don't be sad though, cause I was a great deal skinnier in those days, and wasn't much of a target. In addition it wouldn't be appropriate to, "Thank you for doing this Jesus", because you don't seem able to get things done. For the moment I'll stick with Zeus, because he didn't promise me anything, so I'm not surprised that he doesn't deliver.

Ok then I'll catch you on the flip flop. Oh could you just wave your arms or something so that Desiree feels better?

Red herring. You were trying to say that there's no rape in the Bible, and clearly there is.

Neither did the children.

Except for the parts where clearly states that the Isrealites shave their heads, pare their nails, and go unto them while clearly stating that these women are in captivity. Go back and read the passages I cited. It says that.

Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, Desi.

That's not the point. Why kill men, women, and children but spare virgins? You're also forgetting that animals were slaughtered as well. Were the animals going to rise up and battle the Isrealites out of vengeance? Was it necessary to slaughter oxen and donkeys? And yet keep the virgins for themselves!?

Come on, Desi. You're trying really hard not to see what's right in front of your face.

No, I didn't say that. I said that your appeal to God's mysticism is a cop-out.