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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > The Santa Question Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 16 2003, 04:07 AM As non-believers most of us wouldn't advocate telling children that the christian god exists. What about Santa Claus? Should small children be told that he exists so they can enjoy the fantasy and fit in with other children? Or, should they be given the facts and be shown how to find joy and wonder in other things? Posted by: Lokmer Dec 16 2003, 05:22 AM Growing up in a household that was big on faith and belief (but also very rationally rigorous, go figure), I was told in no uncertain terms that Santa Claus was pretend - that it was a fun story that we enjoyed and made a big deal about simply because it was fun. And I tell you, I had more fun with that than many of my contemporaries who believed in Santa or had parents who wanted them to believe - they took it much to seriously. -Lokmer Posted by: MalaInSe Dec 16 2003, 08:46 AM Gosh, I don't know what I'll do. I should probably decide by next year, but right now, the boo-gah just likes to rip the paper. My brother and I didn't suffer any real trauma when we figured out Santa wasn't real. We just made a pact not to tell Mom we'd figured it out, because we thought we would get more presents that way. I don't have a problem with Santa so much as I do with all of the presents he brings. I think kids expect more out of Santa than they would out of their parents. I think it leads to overspending by the parents, and materialism for the kids. Much better, I think, for the kids to know that they get what they get from their parents. I think we'll probably just treat Santa as a storybook character and not worry too much about it. I believed in H.R. Pufenstuff too, though no one encouraged me to. I got over it and I think we'll treat Santa as the same kind of fantasy character (but without the drug allusions). Ren Posted by: pitchu Dec 16 2003, 09:03 AM In retrospect, I'm sorry I played into the Santa myth with my two birth daughters. Every photo of my older girl with Santa has her looking frozen with terror; my younger one was more at ease with myth, as she's certainly shown herself to be with the god-concept. Maybe Santa is a gateway drug. Happy birthday again, TF! Posted by: MalaInSe Dec 16 2003, 10:37 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 16 2003, 09:03 AM) Every photo of my older girl with Santa has her looking frozen with terror; my younger one was more at ease with myth, as she's certainly shown herself to be with the god-concept. Maybe Santa is a gateway drug. You know, I forgot about that-- Santa is damn scary. All of my santa pictures show me crying and shrieking in terror. Boo-gah was afraid too last week when she saw Santa. I guess that we should scrap Santa until she's at least not afraid of him. Weird that I would think that a Santa picture is more important than my daughter's terror. Bad mommy! Ren Posted by: Doug2 Dec 16 2003, 11:38 AM My parents never told me that santa was real, and I am glad they didn't. Why did I care? I still got gifts! I never had problems fitting in with other kids (except wondering why their parents lied to them and how 12 year olds could still believe such a thing). Why lie to your kids just so they can find out later that it is false. This isn't even something that will help them. Posted by: Libertus Dec 16 2003, 12:16 PM I think that I agree with Pitchu that it can definitely be a "gateway drug". If we want our children to grow up with a realistic world view, then we shouldn't start them off with a belief in someone who is not real. We can give them the background of the story, but tell them that it's a fantasy. Without the xtian anti-Santa movement that treats him like a pariah stealing jesus thunder, I think that it could still be fun. I also am of the opinion that if a parent works their a$$ off to by their kids some presents, then those kids should know to whom thanks is deserved. Xpen Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 16 2003, 12:41 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 16 2003, 12:03 PM) Maybe Santa is a gateway drug. Very funny! And, I think you may be right. QUOTE Happy birthday again, TF! Thanks, I'm making it thru the day with a few gateway drugs of my own (chocolate and champagne). Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 16 2003, 12:44 PM I was naive as a child. We used to leave Diet Dr. Pepper and cookies for Santa. The same year that my dad switched to Tab, so did Santa. I never clued in. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 01:16 PM my kids have been told about Santa from certain family members, not to mention the school mates. I have decided that this weekend my twins are going to be told the truth. This is going to be hard. But theres something deep inside of me thats screaming.... TELL THEM THE TRUTH! its just too risky not to. I cant take this risk. Santa is scary! Nobody wants to make their kid seem like a freak, we want them to fit in with the other kids in school. But whats more important a friggin social instinct or leading your child to an independant lifestyle? Im so glad this was brought up because THE QUESTIONS have started already. For example.... mommy, why do we have bones from the dinosaurs? Is there a heaven? Where do dogs go when they die? Is there a dog heaven? It seems to me that one of my kids is asking me about death. This is very serious to me. These questions came up all on his own. I did not bring it up. How the hell is a little boy going to "process" death? I do know someone who works with the mentally retarded. He has told me that his old job was to counsel children in the hospital who were dying from cancer. I havent asked him anything about it yet & I dont know if he is religious. When I was a child I WAS told about god, heaven, & yes dog heaven! I was told this I suppose to make me feel safe. Guess what? I never felt safe. So how does an atheiat explain things like death to little children? Without scaring the crap out of them? I dont know what to do except for speak from my mind & heart & tell the truth. As parents we are going to make some mistakes along the way. I admit that I told my son the truth about dog heaven. I told him what we did when I was little & the dog died. We buried him in the ground and we remember him in our hearts so hes still alive, ect. ect. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 01:25 PM ps. I think that what we think is SO important as adults might not be such a big deal to kids. Death is part of life. Its unavoidable & the questions are going to come. Posted by: sexkitten Dec 16 2003, 01:29 PM I had a mom who wanted me to believe in Santa long after I figured out that Santa's letters were postmarked from the same small town that her best friend lived in instead of the North Pole. She tried for years afterwards to convince me that Santa was real which really annoyed me. I was clever, mom! congratulate me or something! I think she really wanted me to stay a child forever. Anyways, I plan to just tell my kids that Santa is a fun fairy story that we enjoy at Christmastime. I might not bother with Santa at all, but I wouldn't want them to miss out on the flying reindeer. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 01:38 PM thats crazy, its like she didnt want to admit to lying previously. Fuck all this fear and lying, Im getting a little pissed right now. At any rate Im hoping I wont be looking at books on how to deconvert your teenager from Christianity, 10 yrs from now. And if I am I WILL DEAL WITH IT! Posted by: fortunehooks Dec 16 2003, 02:36 PM i was just thinking about this same idea today. when i or if i have offspring will i tell them the truth that santa claus is a lie,same as biblegod. the santa claus gab never gave me any overwhelming happiness,but it made me go to sleep earlier then i would. my mother actually thought it okay to make believe santa,but father oh no he told me the truth. i think him for it now because later on in life i was confronted with another myth that needed to be discarded. Pitchu: if santa claus is the gateway drug i need help for my kids in about 5-10 years from now. i apologize for going off topic, but it's fortunehooks my mind always will wander so. is it wrong on my part for when or if i have offspring to reject them the free practice of any religion? i ask because i'm upset that i didn't have a choice in the matter. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 04:07 PM when it seemed like the whole world was celebrating Christmas how could you feel that you had a choice in it? My sister has a 10 yr old & she has decided that she will let her son come to his own conclusion. So as to not push either one on him. To let his mind say be free. Which I can respect but Christianity was so bad for me personally that theres no way I would want that for my kids, for obvious reasons. I dont want to PUSH being atheist on my kids either but at the same time how could I possibly not express myself around the kids either. At this point Im going to stop worrying about the whole thing & let it unfold, I will keep expressing myself & they can express themselves after all we are seperate human beings. Kids arent property. I am not the owner of their minds. I can direct a little but I cant write the whole friggin play. Posted by: GodzillaBless Dec 16 2003, 04:12 PM I used to wonder if Santa existed then how could he visit us at Christmastime seeing that we didn't have a chimney. Did he fit down the furnace flue or had my mother given him a key? I didn't tell my kids any tall tales about there being a santa. They've always known the packages that come in the mail at Christmastime come from Mommy. I do, however, think that whoever said Christmastime is an "occasion of sin" (if you will pardon the expression) as far as greed and materialism is concerned is correct. The original St. Nicholas threw bags of gold down the chimneys of the poorest families so that they could at least have the BASICS. One day when I actually manage to spend Christmas with my kids instead of thousands of miles away I would like to take them with me to a Salvation Army shelter to dish up Christmas dinner with poor folks just to show them the kinder gentler side of Christmas -- compassion and generosity.... anyway just my two cents...... Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 05:07 PM connie, thats your namr right? I like Godzilla too. anyway, I loved your 2 cents. These things are like gold to me. You mentioned the salvation army. They are the ones who brought Christmas presents to my door. Mom was on welfare with a 2 yr old & a 6 yr old, daycare cost would have been the whole paycheck, so welfare was the lifestyle until we started school. Dad couldnt send any presents due to the fact he was in prison for drug trafficking and all. Crazy bastards my parents were. Actually, when I was born it was an emergency walk in due to the fact that Mom was running from the law at the time too. I fianally got a birth certificate at like 6. Late starting school thats for sure. Anyway, yrs. later I would send tons of my husbands money to the Salvation Army. HE DID NOT LIKE THIS!! ha ha ha I wont be sending them any money now thats for sure. My mother stopped running from the law when it was time for me to start school. Im glad for that because I wouldnt have wanted to be raised in a foster home. Mom was fucked but thats mom. Better to have a wacko ma then no ma. I feel the same about relationships, better two people be wacked together than wacked alone. I hope your laughing because I am, I just dont take these things as seriously as I use to. Everywhere you hear: its my parents fault! my parents screwed me up, its all their fault! Well maybe part of it is but stand up & take responsibility for yourself for once. Ya know? I mean how many years can you point the finger at them? At some point I said its time for me take charge of my life. I like your posts & Im glad you come here. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 05:15 PM ps I realize I might be seriously judged for that last post. Who cares! Did I mention mom was arrested for shoplifting food from the grocery store when I was 4. Wait, I said that wrong, mom was CAUGHT shoplifting but not arrested because the general manager let her go & didnt call the cops! Good old general manager that he was, ha ha ha Posted by: ~Josalo~ Dec 16 2003, 05:32 PM Belief in santa and belief in religion are two different kinds of beliefs I think. As a person grows up they realize its all bullshit without having to be told, but being taught about santa is not brainwashing cough religion cough. Posted by: pitchu Dec 16 2003, 06:09 PM Wow! Go out for a few hours and, sure enough, you come back to a bunch of freethinkers thinking freely again! TF, you've sure started something here. Reading all these posts makes me realize that the issue of Santa may be the first big event that teaches our kids whether or not they can trust us to tell them the truth (and whether or not we consider truth-telling as looking out for their welfare, even against a tide of celebratory lie-enforcers). Since we're going to be waging that battle for all the years of rearing them, we might as well start out with the principle by which we plan to rear them, huh? And throw in not scaring the crap out of them like I did, what with Santa being all big and red like the Devil, eh, Renee? IMO, Michelle, kids experiencing the loss of a loved person or pet probably have just as much grief, no matter what they're told, but I think the heaven idea raises many more questions in their minds than a simple, "All living things die someday, Sweetie, and that's why loving and enjoying life is so important." (BTW, I doubt anybody here is judging you for the colorful behavior of your parents.) Connie, I hope next season you'll be dishing up a christmas meal for others, alongside your kids, just like you want... and that circumstances will bring them together with you often and in the best ways possible, soon and always. (For my 2 cents, you could post that picture of them again, with their faces that look like holidays are supposed to feel.) Posted by: chefranden Dec 16 2003, 06:49 PM We raised our kids without Santa. But we made that decision as christians. I was afraid that they might think God was made up when they found out that Santa was made up. So we didn't let them believe in the fake pretend person so that they could believe in the real pretend person. Neither one believes in any pretend people now. They are 22 and 26 and free in spite of me. They still like xmas trees though. grrr. Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 07:15 PM Pitchu, I had to laugh out loud (though I know you were serious) when you said... Since were going to be waging that battle for all the years of rearing them, we might as well start out with the principal by which we plan to rear them huh? Try telling that to a Christian. See when my twins were born that is exactly what drove me to church, looking for principals for them. Its not uncommon that young mothers turn to church for ideas on raising kids. I dont like it that I see my kids only on wknds & they live with the dad through the wk because I have that old idea from the outside word that kids should always go to the mother after seperation, its not always true, men are just as capable as we are. And I know my kids are safe in their home, although I truthfully dont always see them as being mentally safe when they visit Christian family members. But myths are everywhere, theres no avoiding it. Their dad is atheist. When my husband & me seperated my twins were 2 yrs old so they havent experienced divorce the way an older child might. Now that I think about it, that in itself saved them some greif. The only life they have known is living with dad & wknds with mom, although there was an intial absence when I first got sick. Of about 6 months. I probably should be doing personal email on this one. What I was trying to say before was going to church when the kids are born for principals, I suppose that is better than having none but I must say, I have my own now. I will admit what some ex-christians might not, that being that there were a few good ideas picked up in church that are still with me. But theyre still mine if Im livin em ya know? Anyway, this issue of greif when losing a person or pet This is not something we all know how to deal with, like where do you draw the line on the age for children attending funerals? Mostly I go by instinct and the maturity level of the child. Hugs are the best medicine as far as I can tell. One of my sons is in special ed which makes it all that more complicated. Twins have such a special relationship just like all siblings but I see the one thats not in special ed helping the one who is & I have concerns with that too. Broke free was a twin, maybe he could pop in here too. Im glad youre in here, beleive me I never came in here for parents experience I came in here pissed off at church people but we all need other people in this life. Im glad I found this place. Somebody give the webmaster a kiss lol Posted by: michelle Dec 16 2003, 07:37 PM chefrandan is so funny... they still like xmas trees, grrrr my kids have a tree in the house, I dont have one in this house too. Another issue with seperated parents... everything has to be in agreement with the father. grrrr well hell two heads are better than one! Posted by: GodzillaBless Dec 16 2003, 07:44 PM I have a fiberoptic Xmas tree that only cost me 10 bux so nyah!! Posted by: pitchu Dec 16 2003, 08:06 PM QUOTE (GodzillaBless @ Dec 16 2003, 07:44 PM) I have a fiberoptic Xmas tree that only cost me 10 bux so nyah!! No xmas tree inside the house, but plenty of snow covered ones outside the windows... just like jesus would have wanted! Michelle, I think you're right -- I Broke Free could be a big help for your specific twin concerns. As far as the other points you mention, if you take things as they come, as you seem to be doing, now, in your life, you sure seem to me to have an attitude that'll steer you to answers that'll work well for you and your boys. And, of course, as those things do come up, you know we're all here for you. Posted by: Matthew Dec 16 2003, 08:10 PM I wouldn't tell my kids about Santa Claus. I am a freethinker and I believe in developing a kid's sense of reason at an early age. I always thought that Christian parents who knowingly told their kids about Santa Claus were hypocrites: they might spank the hell out of their kids for lying to them..and even give a religious rationale for not lying (i.e. "A little lie makes baby Jesus cry") yet they turn around and tell their kids about Santa Claus. What would happen if the kid found out that Santa Claus was a myth and told the parent(s) something like "Well..I am an agnostic..if you weren't honest with me about Santa..I have no reason to believe you're being honest with me about Jesus and the Bible". The problem is that I think it retards a child's intellectual development and is an insult to their sense of reason. If you don't plan on preaching any myths/legends to them as an adult..why start as they're beginning childhood? It doesn't make any sense to me. I would never condemn someone for doing it..but it's something I would never do myself. Matthew Posted by: likeafish Dec 16 2003, 09:25 PM Oh brother, y'all are covering some territory that I don't want to think about. I have such mixed feeling, especially this year, about Xmas. My wife loves it. I, on the other hand, work in a retail environment, and have grown to despise it! We went to a Xmas tree farm with friends who had a toddler and cut down a tree. I have to admit, once I was out there it was fun. Watching little kids running around was great. But I dreaded it. But now the tree is up and we broke out the decorations (the sheep in the manger are humping!) and I like to come home and light a fire in the fireplace and turn on the tree lights. And it makes the house smell nice. Well, I just tried to write why I have all these mixed feelings but it's all about being a kid and involves stuff too painful to go over again, so I deleted it. The thing is, my wife wants a baby. I'm not sure if I do, and it is because of things like this. Fucking Santa Claus!!!! I imagine myself "explaining" things to my kids, like the story of St. Nick, and them looking at me with their eyes rolling back in their heads. Kids need fun and, dare I say it, a little "enchantment" perhaps. I don't want to be always the bearer of bad news and the cold, hard facts. I also don't want my kids to feel like pariahs. I suppose like anything, they will take from any of it a degree of seriousness (or fun!) that their parents put into it. I want to be a fun dad. Steve Posted by: Matthew Dec 16 2003, 09:44 PM QUOTE The thing is, my wife wants a baby. I'm not sure if I do, and it is because of things like this. Neato! How old are you two, respectively? Matthew Posted by: chefranden Dec 16 2003, 09:53 PM Steve, If you want to be conected with life and the great mystery, if you want to know the meaning of life, the universe, and everything, and are not satisfied with 42, then have a kid. They will take care of their own enchantment and bewitch you at the same time. Just yesterday my 2.5 year old grandson spent 30 minutes explaining to me how heat comes out of the base board. He used dance, and song, and serious lecture. When you move your hands in this mysterious way the he-he comes out. what more could you ask for? Posted by: pitchu Dec 16 2003, 10:45 PM Steve, How are you going to explain to your non-existent grandchildren that you didn't have their mother or father because of things like Santa Claus? I really think Chef is on track here. Especially in a household like I imagine yours to be, there will be every kind of evidence of originality and creativity to show them ways in which they can create wonderment. And they'll show you some. And you can make up your own holidays together (we did). Who needs pre-digested enchantment? Posted by: likeafish Dec 16 2003, 10:49 PM Someone said to me the other day that when you have a kid you get to experience childhood all over again. That sounds pretty good. The first round was a mixed bag. This time without the religious clutter perhaps things will have a little more shine. And Matthew, I'm 43 and she's 33, and all the sudden--WHAMO!!!--her clock didn't just start ticking, it started clanging like Big Ben! Looks like 2004 will be the year. Steve Posted by: Lanakila Dec 17 2003, 03:57 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 16 2003, 09:49 PM) We raised our kids without Santa. But we made that decision as christians. I was afraid that they might think God was made up when they found out that Santa was made up. So we didn't let them believe in the fake pretend person so that they could believe in the real pretend person. Neither one believes in any pretend people now. They are 22 and 26 and free in spite of me. They still like xmas trees though. grrr. We had the same idea as xians. My 3 older kids are too old for Santa, but this year we are playing pretend with my 3 year old. When she starts asking questions in a few years, I will leak it out that Santa is pretend. But my older kids feel deprived of this fun thing, that their friends all participated in, and I don't want to deprive my daugther, now that I don't think God will judge me for lying to my kid. I am not lying, I am just playing a pretend game, I think when the questions about Santa making it to every home start, and I correctly answer that its a pretend story, that we went along with for awhile, I can go into God being something that even adults believe in, with no evidence to prove his existence. (I won't tell my kids what to believe anymore, but I will answer them honestly) Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 17 2003, 08:11 AM This is a very interesting question. To be honest I LOVED believing in Santa as a small child. My parents placed most of the presents under the tree during the Christmas season with cards indicating who the present was for and from whom, but we were also told to expect a visit from Santa as well. It was the visit from Santa and the story behind the Santa myth that I found as enchanting as a child. My father would even leave a little cotton on the milk glass set out for Santa and tell us that it was part of Santa’s beard. On Christmas morning there were also a few presents from him too. Perhaps non-theists who relish their Christmas memories as a child could make this compromise if they wish to carry on the Santa tradition. Ask your child each year after Christmas what Santa had to do to accomplish his task of visiting millions of homes in one night. Challenge the myth each year (not too harshly) until your child understands that people often believe in things that cannot possibly be true. I think most children will find the process of examination enlightening and will feel proud of their new skills. Instead of the Santa myth becoming a gateway drug to Christianity, it could be used as a tool to sharpen critical thinking. I don’t have any children, and I can appreciate the thoughts of many of the parents on this board not wanting to lie to their children. But the Santa myth played a huge role in making my childhood “magical.” Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 17 2003, 08:24 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Dec 16 2003, 10:15 PM) Twins have such a special relationship just like all siblings but I see the one thats not in special ed helping the one who is & I have concerns with that too. Broke free was a twin, maybe he could pop in here too. Im glad youre in here, beleive me I never came in here for parents experience Hi Michelle: So one your twins is in special ed and the other is not. Are your twins identical or fraternal? I ask because growing up my identical twin brother and I had identical grades in school, even though the school always insisted that we be in different classrooms. Both of us either hated or loved a school subject. Neither one us was ever put in the position of tutoring the other. I am sure we would have if the need arose, but if we both were poor at a subject (spelling and sentence structure come to mind) we both just ignored it studied what we wanted (astronomy and geography.) Tell me a little more about your sons. If I can bring any insight to the matter, I would be glad to help. Posted by: michelle Dec 17 2003, 01:27 PM Broke Free, My boys look identical but they are fraternal. They are in seperate schools. I got concerned when the one who is not in special ed was asked to help his brother with something and he responded with "Eddies your problem, not mine man" I cant even beleive a 5 yr old talks like this. He probably just needed some space of his own & some attention of his own. I dont care what anyone says twins get less attention than an only child. And only parents of twins can understand how overwhelming it can be at times. I myself was the first born & helped my younger sister of 5 yrs out alot. The memoeies now are nice but I sure didnt like it at the time. I dont want my one son to be pressured. Most of the time they play together nicely & hug each other. Its clear that one is the leader & I dont know if this is healthy. Having twins you always want them have their own seperate identitys & you want to make sure they know theyre loved equally. The best thing to me seems to just forget the fact that they are twins. Just treat them the same way you would treat siblings of different ages. What do you think? Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 17 2003, 04:58 PM QUOTE (michelle @ Dec 17 2003, 04:27 PM) I dont care what anyone says twins get less attention than an only child. And only parents of twins can understand how overwhelming it can be at times. Our older sister was the one who complained about not getting attention after my brother and I were born. Most twins have a special bond and my brother and I were no exception. It more than made up for getting less parental attention. I cannot comment on one your twins being slower in school than the other. In my case our grades and skills were identical too and that issue never arose. Every situation is different. Far from being overwhelming, I can recall my mother saying repeatedly that raising twins boys was half as much trouble as raising one girl. But she only said this after my sister became a teenager. Posted by: woodsmoke Dec 17 2003, 06:01 PM Get ready, folks, here comes a long list of "I agree"s. First of all, with Lokmer, because I think it can still be a fun story even if you don't believe in it. Arabian Nights, anyone? I also agree with Renee. I don't think I even fully swallowed the Santa story--I just kind of went along with it to avoid causing a fuss and keep getting presents. But then, she also raises a good point about the credit given. Pitchu's also right, Santa's a scary guy to a little kid. I don't think I ever really liked going up and sitting on his lap, even after I was older and no longer afraid. That's just my indepenence coming out--I have a very clear definition of personal space, and there are very few instances in which I will permit that being violated. Santa was not one of those instances, I only did it to go along with the crowd and because he always gave me a bag of candy and peanuts after we were done. I'm sorry, I just have to interject here; am I the only one who enjoys sucking on the peanut shells for a while? I know it may sound weird--and it probably is--but I liked the salty flavor. I know, I'm strange, and proud of it! And Doug may well have hit the nail square on the head for many kids. Santa Shmanta, just give me my toys! I know some of my friends could have cared less if they were getting their presents from Charles Bronson, just so long as they were getting presents! Okay, I'm beginning to think my house is haunted. The door is locked all the time when neither Andy nor I have gone near it, and just now I heard voices--it may have been the radio, but either way--but no one else is here and Andy's fast asleep in his room sawing logs. Sweet. Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled programming: Excellent point, Michelle. Speaking solely for myself, I've never had a big problem with death. People die. That's a basic fact of life. It's not that big of a deal to me. A couple years ago I was speaking to my family and said off-handishly "When Gramps is dead," You'd think I'd just confessed to the murder of a profit. "How can you talk about such a thing? That's horrible how you address it with such callous disregard!" Granted, I probably could have gone about it a little more gently, but they could have been a little less sensitive to what I see as a basic fact of life, as well. Maybe everyone isn't like this, but I get the feeling most children just know and accept such things--it's usually only when we're taught to fear death that we do so. Josalo also has a good point--seems to be a lot of those flyin' around here. To me, at least, Santa is harmless. Everyone I know grew up, realized it's not true, got over it, and went on with life. No big deal, as far as we're concerned. Realliterating Doug "Why did we care? We still got gifts!" Sorry, Chef, I still like Xmas trees, too. It's just a fun part of the holidays. I absolutely love having a fresh, real tree in the front room and decorated to bursting. The smell is nice, but it's mostly just my traditionalist nature--I love the real thing, and I used to loathe the idea of getting an artificial imitation. Although, since I have my own house and would now have to clean the remains of the tree out of the carpet, I've come around to thinking artificial trees aren't so bad. That's what Andy and I have this year, and I don't think we'll get a fresh one for some time yet. Pitchu, I must say I'm jealous. My parents have two little pine trees on each side of the front porch at their house, but unless you go into the mountains, that's the closest thing to an outside Xmas tree around. Well, no, there are other big pine trees around, but they're all in yards and huge and whatever; just not the same, if that makes any sense. Steve, you have read my mind. Although Jessica and I are nowhere near to an equal degree of commitment and devotion in our relationship as you and your wife are, I think we're pretty serious for people our age. Then again, I may just be feeding my ego. That's one of the biggest factors in my thinking of this subject. I'm almost sure that Jessica would want to tell our kids about Santa. I know she wouldn't do it nearly as much out of a desire to control their behavior--"better be good, Santa's watching"--as just to share the fun of it. I'm sure she had a good time of it, and although kids may not need it to form their own fantasies and enchantment, it's sure a lot of fun for a kid to play with. It sure was for me, anyway, despite my constant suspicions. I don't know, if/when the time comes for such a thing, we'll work it out together. Overall, I think my sentiments come closest to IBF's. I loved the magic of the Xmas season and all the joy and fun that came with it, Santa included. I think it was a great thing for my imagination to wrap itself around. As you all know, I've got about the most active sense of wonder ever existed in a human being, so I drank up the Santa stuff and loved every minute of it. It may seem ridiculous--though I'm sure most o' y'all will understand--but I still sometimes have fantastic dreams of exploring the North Pole and finally finding that sneaky old man's hidden workshop! For the third time now, kids may not need Santa to enchant them, but he's sure a great toy to mix in with the rest! I think it's fair to mention, when it comes to the "childhood" holidays, I don't think I'll ever fully grow up. When I was a kid, I would always be the first up and most eager to go upstairs and dive into the loot--though just as much for the happiness brought about by the occasion as out of a desire to get my stuff. Even at 18 and living on my own, I still get excited about the season. Last year while I was still living with my parents, despite being 17 years old and having long since given up the Santa myth, just like always I was the first up and ready to dive headfirst into the holiday. Some people will never fully grow up. *proudly displays name badge bearing the inscription, "Hi, I'm some people!"* I just think Xmas is fun. I don't give a hoot either way about the mythological aspects of it, I just enjoy the spirit of joy that comes with it. As I've mentioned before, this will be my first holiday season spent with a girl, and I'm going to joyously devour every tiny crumb! When I have kids, I'll still do the same, and to Hell with everything and everyone who wants to hinder that! Posted by: Shadfox Dec 17 2003, 06:08 PM Santa, in my opinion, was created to be yet another all-seeing, invisible force of judgement. Kind of like god..or Ashcroft. "He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake." Personally I've found little comfort in that. I read in a psychology article that speaking to your children as if they were adults does wonders for building their character and self-concept. Speaking down to a child as if they lack understanding can produce somone who is overly dependant and self-doubtful. Likewise, I think conditioning them to believe there's an invisible force that watches them relentlessly, recording every sin and rewarding those who conform will open them up to the god concept. Posted by: Libertus Dec 17 2003, 06:11 PM QUOTE Santa, in my opinion, was created to be yet another all-seeing, invisible force of judgement. Kind of like god..or Ashcroft. Posted by: pitchu Dec 17 2003, 09:42 PM Woody, I wish you and Jessica all the magic you could possibly hope for out of this Season. I gotta say, though, all your glorious memories of xmas taken into account, when you grow up as one of the wretchedly poor in America, xmas ain't no damn fun. Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |