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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > The One Big Question I Have Posted by: A Bleeding God Dec 22 2003, 11:20 AM This question has been bugging me ever since I was a child. 1. If god is omniscient and knows everything that will ever happen, why did he create satan if he knew that satan would fall from grace? And why does he make people if he knows that their life choices will inevitably lead them to hell? If he knows thats where they are going, then why does he make them? If god truly knew everything that is ever going to happen then it seems to me that free will doesn't exist, and that is a possibility I cannot accept. A Bleeding God Posted by: chefranden Dec 22 2003, 12:38 PM Please don't alow illogic bother you. There is no God and no Satan. Come and rest your weary head in the comfort of free thought. Posted by: Cerise Dec 22 2003, 12:56 PM Back when I was Christian, I would have said something along the lines of: God wanted his children to love him because they wanted to, not because they had to. In order to give people a choice, he created evil and sent it into the world, though it made him sad to see humans suffering. However, looking back I see no reason why and omniscient and omnipotent and benevolent (supposedly) God would decide to create anything in the first place, let alone humans, evil, and Hell. The whole point of having a God seems to be having a Supreme Being who is in control of everything so that people don't feel like their lives are pointless. However, if that Being truly does control everything, then there should be no reason that free will could not exist without evil (yes impossible, but remember, nothing is impossible for God or so I've heard). I don't know why evil would exist in a God controlled world. I can see how evil might exist in a world without God though, therefore it becomes much more practical for me to simply come to the conclusion that there is no God. Not in the sense of omnipotence, omniscience, and benevolance. Posted by: No surprises Dec 22 2003, 01:37 PM From my personal perspective...I don't think that omniscience and free will can negate each other, or are actually related in anyway. As an analogy, when my wife and I were contemplating having children...there were many things to consider...We knew that child birth was going to be painful...We knew that her body was going to change(weight gain, stretch marks, and other changes) We knew that there was going to be quite a financial draw(med bills, bigger house, living expenses). We also knew that there were risks to my wife's health, tons of unknown factors as our child grew up...would they become involved in sports, drugs, gangs, will they graduate, have children as teenagers?, the list can go on forever... We knew all of this ahead of time...but we also knew of the joys that our children would bring us, we knew that our child had the potential to positively impact hundreds of people, and maybe even change the world. We wanted our child to experience life, marriage, children...everything that life has to offer. We didn't know which bad decisions our child would make(I'm not omniscient) but we knew that many life-changing negative decisions were inevitable(free-choice). We still had a child...actually five. My oldest daughter is thirteen...she is making terrible,life changing-decisions. I knew that these scenarios were possible/probable....but we did it anyway, and as painful as it is...I think I would do it all over again the same way. The most painful decision that my daughter could make that I can think of....Would be to break all ties with me, cease communication, then live and die apart from me. That would break my heart...but it would be her choice... Posted by: likeafish Dec 22 2003, 06:48 PM NS, I would think that the analogy falls apart when you consider the power ascribed to this god and that he is worshipped as almighty, etc. Given your parental anaolgy, wouldn't a parent do anything in their power to prevent the annihilation of their child? There are parents who have rescued (saved) their children from cults, or sent them off to military schools (you pick the analogy) to prevent as best they knew how, the lose of their child to whatever it was they thought was taking their child away (drugs, a cult, a bad group of friends). Is that too much? Or even a simple illustration of a parent who would simply do anything, like work their butt off for their child's sake, just so they have a shot at life. You admit that your power is limited. That is not what we are considering when we talk about the Xtian god. That is unless you allow that this god is limited somehow as well, or perhaps self-limiting, but then if this is so, to what extent is god saving anyone? I see what you are saying--there is a tension between letting go (freeing her to her own will) and holding on (saving her by your power to raise her well). Let's say the worst case scenario happened and your daughter did end up in that far away place. Would your love be limited at that point? At what point is your human love going to dissipate and your daughter be condemned for her actions or unwillingness to love you back? Will you ever not love her? I guess it's hard to say. It becomes a question of your own willingness. And aren't preachers always and forever going on about what they say is the will of god? I think it is certainly wise to ask the same sorts of questions of the claims made for trusting in an all-knowing, all-powerful god. What are the limits if there are no limits? What does salvation mean if god is not willing to save? I think Chef sort of does the best work here because logically none of these things fit together. They are paradoxical and absurd. Realizing this about the Xtian claim, it is perhaps better to do as Chef suggests and think for yourself. Steve Posted by: fortunehooks Dec 22 2003, 10:03 PM likeafish: mostly all the time you give people something great to read. to me, as a youngster god needing the devil to be the total opposite of him in every way was a dependency mechanism. a god who can't exist unless he has some polar opposite is dependent, on that polar opposite sustaining as long as it sustains. why did god send evil into the world, because he needs evil to justify his existence. only problem is evil is subjective, what's evil to you might not necessarily be evil to me. what is absolute good, i guess i would need the total opposite to define it, but they are both subjective so they can't be absolutes. some define god as absolute truth, and what the hell does that mean? what is absolute truth? to make the existence of a deity more plausible, we would have to dumb down the definitions we use to define how we describe a god. things god can't be: perfect, all knowing, all powerful, all loving,and in need of constant worship. if you disagree your choice,but look around the world for once and try to see my perspective. Posted by: likeafish Dec 22 2003, 10:55 PM QUOTE to make the existence of a deity more plausible, we would have to dumb down the definitions we use to define how we describe a god. hooks, I don't know if I've ever heard a better definition of theology in a nutshell. There is actually a term for the sort of "war between good and evil" you describe. It's called "theogonic" and it is often used together with the "freewill defense" of god to explain how there can be evil in the world (blame it on the humans and their evil freedom) and a loving god who is limited to the degree that he is locked in this battle to overcome evil he did not intend. Notice that the metaphor of battle is everywhere in evangelical Xtianity. God is fighting for us, and against us (gee, even that doesn't fit ). I am thinking of the pagan origins of Xmas. Yesterday was the shortest day of the year, when pagans would light their torches and celebrate the coming victory of the god of light over the god of darkness as the days now begin to get longer. That's where these ideas come from. . . You are so right on! The ironic thing is the incredible energy and mental strain it takes to "dumb down" things to such a degree so that they have the appearance of fitting together. I have Master's degree in it. Steve Posted by: No surprises Dec 23 2003, 08:26 AM Steve, No degrees here...perhaps I should change my name..."no degrees" kinda catchy...hehe. That's just my personal perspective...not necessarily the Biblical, Christian, or necessarily the correct perspective. I don't necessarily feel that the analogy has been crumbled yet. I, personally wouldn't want a God that controlled my every move...I have no desire to become a marionette, or "borg" as some have said...In fact, I would rebel against an all-controlling God. Which it seems like that is the suggestion here...He's omniscient, & omnipotent, so he shouldn't allow us to make mistakes, or allow any harm to befall us. I Jeff Posted by: chefranden Dec 23 2003, 03:30 PM QUOTE (No suprises) We still had a child...actually five. My oldest daughter is thirteen...she is making terrible,life changing-decisions. I knew that these scenarios were possible/probable....but we did it anyway, and as painful as it is...I think I would do it all over again the same way. The most painful decision that my daughter could make that I can think of....Would be to break all ties with me, cease communication, then live and die apart from me. That would break my heart...but it would be her choice... It would also be your choice, because by analogy you have the power to teach her to make healthy choices. This may be cruel, but if your daughter is going the wrong way then you have fucked up as a parent, since you have not done all in your power to make her way righteous – I’m speaking as if you were god. As a human you should be able to see that your God has let you down. Has your God not promised? QUOTE (Prov.22:6) Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. So what is the problem? Either you have fucked up or your god isn’t good at keeping promises, or maybe your god isn’t real. QUOTE No degrees here...perhaps I should change my name..."no degrees" kinda catchy...hehe. That's just my personal perspective...not necessarily the Biblical, Christian, or necessarily the correct perspective. I don't necessarily feel that the analogy has been crumbled yet. I, personally wouldn't want a God that controlled my every move...I have no desire to become a marionette, or "borg" as some have said...In fact, I would rebel against an all-controlling God. Which it seems like that is the suggestion here...He's omniscient, & omnipotent, so he shouldn't allow us to make mistakes, or allow any harm to befall us. Yet you accept a God that says do this, this and this; believe this, this, and this, or go to hell. What kind of dumb ass choice is that? I didn’t control my children’s every move, but I sure as hell controlled the stupid ones. “Oh look, little Johnny is running into the street, oh my, but that is his choice.” That is what you have just said that your god is like. Criminal neglect. Your god is a dead beat dad. Steve, Thanks for the kind words. Posted by: No surprises Dec 23 2003, 05:53 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 23 2003, 03:30 PM) QUOTE (No suprises) We still had a child...actually five. My oldest daughter is thirteen...she is making terrible,life changing-decisions. I knew that these scenarios were possible/probable....but we did it anyway, and as painful as it is...I think I would do it all over again the same way. The most painful decision that my daughter could make that I can think of....Would be to break all ties with me, cease communication, then live and die apart from me. That would break my heart...but it would be her choice... It would also be your choice, because by analogy you have the power to teach her to make healthy choices. This may be cruel, but if your daughter is going the wrong way then you have fucked up as a parent, since you have not done all in your power to make her way righteous – I’m speaking as if you were god. As a human you should be able to see that your God has let you down. Has your God not promised? QUOTE (Prov.22:6) Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. So what is the problem? Either you have fucked up or your god isn’t good at keeping promises, or maybe your god isn’t real. QUOTE No degrees here...perhaps I should change my name..."no degrees" kinda catchy...hehe. That's just my personal perspective...not necessarily the Biblical, Christian, or necessarily the correct perspective. I don't necessarily feel that the analogy has been crumbled yet. I, personally wouldn't want a God that controlled my every move...I have no desire to become a marionette, or "borg" as some have said...In fact, I would rebel against an all-controlling God. Which it seems like that is the suggestion here...He's omniscient, & omnipotent, so he shouldn't allow us to make mistakes, or allow any harm to befall us. Yet you accept a God that says do this, this and this; believe this, this, and this, or go to hell. What kind of dumb ass choice is that? I didn’t control my children’s every move, but I sure as hell controlled the stupid ones. “Oh look, little Johnny is running into the street, oh my, but that is his choice.” That is what you have just said that your god is like. Criminal neglect. Your god is a dead beat dad. Steve, Thanks for the kind words. Chef, You said: " It would also be your choice, because by analogy you have the power to teach her to make healthy choices. This may be cruel, but if your daughter is going the wrong way then you have fucked up as a parent, since you have not done all in your power to make her way righteous – I’m speaking as if you were god." Analogy or not...I do have the power to teach her to make healthy choices. My daughter has free will...I don't want to interfere with that,, and logistically, as a parent...I can't. As long as my daughter has free will, and I've taught her about right and wrong...and more importantly...shown her an example by the way I live my life...I don't think that I've screwed up. You also quoted the Bible...Prov.22:6]Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.[/QUOTE] So what is the problem? Either you have fucked up or your god isn’t good at keeping promises, or maybe your god isn’t real. First of all...I don't consider 13 old....God makes several promises in the Bible, and I have miraculously come through for me in a time of utter desperation. My God is very real to me...Chef, it's ok if He isn't real to you...I don't love you any less. Jeff Posted by: BillJ Dec 23 2003, 07:33 PM The writers of the bible wanted control over humans, they didn't think it through before they said he was all knowing. They threw in the all knowing part so you would be too scared to sin anywhere at anytime, how else would he be able to judge you on judgement day? Think of it this way, who would people want to worship? An all loving god of course, but to control someone, the idea of an all loving god who doesn't know what the fuck you are doing on a daily basis, would not cause flocks of humans into churches. People don't like to be told what to do, if they can do whatever they want without god knowing, it ruins the whole hell concept because god needs to be able to know yours sins and deeds in order to send you to heaven or hell. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan? Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 11:06 AM As you know Bill, I'm no theologian, or apologetics specialist...just your garden variety double amputee....but my take on the biblical issues that you've raised, differ from yours quite a bit. I'll humbly offer the differences in blue. Thanks, Jeff You said "The writers of the bible wanted control over humans, they didn't think it through before they said he was all knowing. They threw in the all knowing part so you would be too scared to sin anywhere at anytime, how else would he be able to judge you on judgement day? [COLOR=blue] I don't feel afraid...I respect God and His power, but I don't cower in fear. My understanding of Judgement Day is this...there is a great white throne...people that have spent their lives rejecting Jesus Christ, appear here. It has nothing to do with their achievements, humanitarian awards etc...nor does it have to do with who've they've cheated, lied to, or hurt in this life. If they've rejected Christ, He says..."I don't know you." They spent their whole life utilizing their God-given free-will separating themselves from Him...He says no problem...We can continue that policy for eternity. [COLOR=blue]Now this is where it gets a little unpopular with 95% of Christians...You won't hear this preached in most churches, and I haven't seen any bumper stickers relating to it. If a person, at one point in his life, has acknowledged God for who He is, asked for forgiveness, and basically offered his life to Christ...then he/she will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ. When this person accepted Christ, they were completely forgiven...the slate was wiped clean...HOWEVER, THEY MUST NOW GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR LIFE FROM THAT POINT ON. While their eternal destination(heaven or hell) is not in question. Their rewards, and position are affected by their sins...their still may be the gnashing of teeth for them. People that consider themselves Christians...don't want to hear this...it's not a popular teaching, but it is in the Bible. Think of it this way, who would people want to worship? An all loving god of course, but to control someone, the idea of an all loving god who doesn't know what the fuck you are doing on a daily basis, would not cause flocks of humans into churches. People don't like to be told what to do, if they can do whatever they want without god knowing, it ruins the whole hell concept because god needs to be able to know yours sins and deeds in order to send you to heaven or hell. [COLOR=blue] Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan" [COLOR=blue] Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of....does God claim to want to make the world a better place...in fact He says that those that have accepted him are aliens here, and we will suffer here, also we are not supposed to be conformed to this world...that's the problem with most people that claim to be Christians...this heaven sounds great...but they still want to "fit" in with everyone else...house in the burbs, nice cars in the garage, they still want to live as they please...rather than living for Christ. True followers of Christ are supposed to be different...set apart by the way they live their lives. Conversion rates are dropping like crazy...both Mormonism and Islam are growing, but Christian churches across the world are closing their doors. The Bible predicts this, in fact the there is a time coming where people will be completely blinded, and it won't be possible to turn to Christ anymore. I don't believe that Christianity is or ever will be close to dying. Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 11:39 AM I tried to fix the "blue" highlights, but don't have permission to...hopefully it is still readable Posted by: chefranden Dec 24 2003, 12:32 PM QUOTE (No suprises) First of all...I don't consider 13 old....God makes several promises in the Bible, and I have miraculously come through for me in a time of utter desperation. My God is very real to me...Chef, it's ok if He isn't real to you...I don't love you any less. Jeff, Heck I wouldn't doubt your love for me just because you are willing to make excuses for that murdering Yahweh. (yes i can provide evidence, infalliable some say) I would question your definition of real though. I know you have had some terrible troubles, but I doubt it the help you've received has been his doing. QUOTE (Chef) Yet you accept a God that says do this, this and this; believe this, this, and this, or go to hell. What kind of dumb ass choice is that? I didn’t control my children’s every move, but I sure as hell controlled the stupid ones. “Oh look, little Johnny is running into the street, oh my, but that is his choice.” That is what you have just said that your god is like. Criminal neglect. Your god is a dead beat dad. Here is the core of my argument, which you neglected to answer. One the one hand xtianity tells us that we are too dumb to understand why Yahweh permits, commands, and commits evil, because, and correct me if I'm wrong, we are as children to him. On the other hand we have the capicity to make adult god decisions about life and death issues? By the way, does being children of god mean that we will grow up to be gods? Or is that just a term of indearment for God's favorite pets, like my sister calls her 4 cats her children without expecting them to grow up to become people? It is perhaps true that your daughter has free will put if so she doesn't not know how to use it properly, and in like fashion if we are children we don't know how to use it properly. But, knowing that you are human, if your daughter went to a far place by her own choice as a child you would, if you had the power, go get her. Now don't come up with the incarnation as "well he did come get us." If that is all he did then he isn't very powerfull, since it hasn't worked very well. In fact looking around me I can't see that it has worked at all. By the way I hope that everthing works out ok with your child. Maybe we should stop using her as an example. And, forgive me for being so personal, but make damn sure that you are not scaring her with your religion. You can do that by talking about the need for god's approval to get into heaven i.e. stay out of hell. My mom did that to me at about that age, for my own good you understand, and I ended up doing that to my oldest not with hellfire talk but with the love of god talk, which he could see through as love god or else. And he was right! Posted by: chefranden Dec 24 2003, 01:14 PM QUOTE (No Suprises) Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan" You are correct in saying that the bible has proved effective for conversion. This fact is an argument against the existence of the Christian god which I haven’t seen here yet. Assuming this about Yahweh: God exists as a being that who rules the entire universe. God loves humanity. God has provided humanity with an afterlife. and assuming that God has provided a saving belief. QUOTE (Jn3:16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. And assuming that God’s desire is that none should parish QUOTE (2Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If God were to exist then he would posses all of these properties among others 1. All things considered, God would have the ability to bring salvation to all. 2. It would be God's desire that every human have salvation 3. The desire for salvation of all humans would be his #1 priority i.e. no other desire would conflict with salvation for all. 4. God is rational: meaning that he would act in accord with his highest purpose. It is not the case that all, or almost all humans have come to a saving faith in Jesus. Therefore there does not exist a being that posses all four properties. Therefore the Christian God Yahweh does not exist. Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 01:33 PM Chef, I love having discussions with you...I haven't nor will I ever purposely neglect an issue that you bring up. I think that I will be honest with you, and just tell you that I don't have an answer for you, if that is ever the case. A lot of my points are going to be just that..."my points." I am not professing to be a perfect example of a "Christian", nor represent a group of people claiming to be Christians. If God really is my God...I definitely don't feel the need to make excuses for Him. You quoted a Bible verse, and I explained why I disagreed with your use of it... for this example...that's all. I do want you to know that I trruly do love you...that wasn't hypothetical. "Real" by my own definition, is something that I've experienced personally, and consequentially seen tangible results. Before anyone proves that Webster or Merriam has a different definition...I know...I'm sure they do...but that's my honest and personal definition for this context. Chef, you said "I would question your definition of real though. I know you have had some terrible troubles, but I doubt it the help you've received has been his doing." In a new thread...I will tell you just what Jesus Christ has done for me...then you can certainly judge for yourself...I will be keenly awaiting your appraisal. Here is what you called "Your core issue" Yet you accept a God that says do this, this and this; believe this, this, and this, or go to hell. What kind of dumb ass choice is that? I didn’t control my children’s every move, but I sure as hell controlled the stupid ones. Would you say that having unnprotected sexual intercourse at the age of 14 with a 42 yr old HIV infected heroin addict... iis a stupid choice? I don't think that you could control that, as well as lots of other "real life" examples for both of us. “Oh look, little Johnny is running into the street, oh my, but that is his choice.” That is what you have just said that your god is like. Criminal neglect. Your god is a dead beat dad. Chef, the God that I know, says "Have a personal relationship with me, accept Me for who I am, Love me with all of your heart, love your brother as you love Me, and spend eternity with Me. Conversely, He says if you don't want anything to do with me...that hurts, but so be it...As you wish. I haven't said, at least as far as I'm aware...anything about the Johnny story...What exactly did I say, that leads you to that conclusion? Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 02:01 PM [QUOTE=chefranden,Dec 24 2003, 01:14 PM] [QUOTE=No Suprises]Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan"[/QUOTE] *This was actually Bill's quote...not mine...just my inability to use colored print.* You are correct in saying that the bible has proved effective for conversion. This fact is an argument against the existence of the Christian god which I haven’t seen here yet. Assuming this about Yahweh: God exists as a being that who rules the entire universe. God loves humanity. God has provided humanity with an afterlife. and assuming that God has provided a saving belief. [QUOTE=Jn3:16]For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [/QUOTE] And assuming that God’s desire is that none should parish [QUOTE=2Pet 3:9]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.[/QUOTE] If God were to exist then he would posses all of these properties among others 1. All things considered, God would have the ability to bring salvation to all. *I believe that God DOES have the power to bring salvation to all.* 2. It would be God's desire that every human have salvation...*Yes, I agree* 3. The desire for salvation of all humans would be his #1 priority i.e. no other desire would conflict with salvation for all. *In agreement here too Chef* 4. God is rational: meaning that he would act in accord with his highest purpose. *I'm not sure about the def. of "rational", there is a lot about God, that I don't understand. I do know some about his character though...He is the same yesterday,, today, and forever, and I know that His ways are not man's ways...so, is he rational in a worldly sense?...I'm not sure. It is not the case that all, or almost all humans have come to a saving faith in Jesus. Therefore there does not exist a being that posses all four properties. Therefore the Christian God Yahweh does not exist. Chef, I hope that I'm not off base here...but, from the things you've said... It doesn't seem like you want a "saving faith in Jesus" I think that you've been pretty clear about that...as have many others here. So are you saying that if God is real...He could and should force you to submit to Him? I don't want a God like that...And I don't want my God to "make" you do anything. Also, I appreciate your words, and wishes concerning my daughter Courtney. Do I strike you as a fire and brimstone type of guy Chef? I'll try to post a pic of she and I. Love ya, Jeff Posted by: AggieNostic Dec 24 2003, 02:27 PM QUOTE (No surprises @ Dec 24 2003, 04:33 PM) "Real" by my own definition, is something that I've experienced personally, and consequentially seen tangible results. Before anyone proves that Webster or Merriam has a different definition...I know...I'm sure they do...but that's my honest and personal definition for this context. As a skeptic, I never question what people tell me they "feel" or "perceive." When someone says a particular deity is "real" to them, I can only take them at their word. However, the problem for the skeptic is what to do with all the "real" experiences that lead to contradictory conclusions. I'm sure a Mormon's "burning in their bosom" is as real to them as is a Baptist's feeling that Jesus is listening to their prayers. No religionist has ever given me a useful tool for distinguishing the "false real experiences" from the "true real experiences" (at least not without resorting to question begging). Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 03:07 PM Aggie, Great points...I don't know of a "tool" either...I spoke in depth about Mormonism in a different thread. I too, believe that a Mormon can feel a burning in their bosom...just as I feel the presence of God in my life...I promised Chef that I would start that thread...but probably not until after Christmas. The feelings and proof are real to me, as they are real to my Mormon friend....neither experience proves anything about the validity of God's existence to an outsider. What's "real" to myself or the Mormon...really shouldn't matter to you anyway...What is real to you...from experience...is what should be important to you. ps...I hope that you don't consider me a "religionist" That just doesn't have a nice ring to it. Jeff Posted by: BillJ Dec 24 2003, 04:09 PM QUOTE I don't feel afraid...I respect God and His power, but I don't cower in fear. Reject the bible then, be a good caring person without the bible, if you truly believe in a loving god, who you surely believe is watching your every action, then you should have nothing to fear. I think you do fear god, you fear not accepting jesus because the bible says that those who reject christ will perish. QUOTE It has nothing to do with their achievements, humanitarian awards etc...nor does it have to do with who've they've cheated, lied to, or hurt in this life. So basically your saying the bible teaches you how to do less in this world. Be a prick and an asshole to everyone, just make sure you accept christ. QUOTE When this person accepted Christ, they were completely forgiven...the slate was wiped clean...HOWEVER, THEY MUST NOW GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR LIFE FROM THAT POINT ON. While their eternal destination(heaven or hell) is not in question. Their rewards, and position are affected by their sins Earlier you said it has nothing to do with achievements, and humanitarian awards, they just have to accept christ, then you said that after you have accepted christ your slate was wiped clean. Then you continued to say that after you have had your slate wiped clean, your rewards and position are affected by your sins. I thought the slate was wiped clean, how can you be rewarded and given a position when your sins have been forgiven? God has forgotten them, you can kill babies, eat people, blow up cars, slash throats, kill more babies, skin people alive then accept christ and all is good. Jeffrey dahmer accept christ, he must be so happy that he can sing to god for eternity, even though he photographed a dead corpse of someone's precious life with their stomach removed. QUOTE Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of....does God claim to want to make the world a better place...in fact He says that those that have accepted him are aliens here, and we will suffer here, also we are not supposed to be conformed to this world WRONG, god is all loving, you can't be all loving and want your own creation to turn to shit. All loving means you cannot possess feelings of hate, making people suffer is a form of evilness. God get's angry, you can't be all loving and be angry, if he was all loving he would punish people in a non-emotional way, for things like murder, rape, and not things as stupid as not believing in something without proof. If He is all loving he would eventually have an overwhelming desire to free prisoners in hell, and give them a second chance. QUOTE The Bible predicts this, in fact the there is a time coming where people will be completely blinded, and it won't be possible to turn to Christ anymore. I don't believe that Christianity is or ever will be close to dying. That isn't a prediction, it is a guess, of course people are going to reject christ, they have no physical proof of his existence. When you write a book with as many contradictions with childish ways, it's inevitable for a human (one with a conscience) to accept such bullshit. The bible makes future guesses, the guesses have no date, and are written in such a way that they can be attributed to many different situations, the less specific the easier it is to ascribe to any situation. QUOTE Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan *This was actually Bill's quote...not mine...just my inability to use colored print.* Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. <<Except this part Posted by: BillJ Dec 24 2003, 04:24 PM Just to let you know "No surprises" I'm not trying to sound angry in my post. I'm just looking for a good debate, and you are a respectable person. I'm trying to understand your thinking, and I do not want you to think im an asshole because of the words I choose. I Look forward to your response!!! Posted by: No surprises Dec 24 2003, 04:43 PM QUOTE (BillJ @ Dec 24 2003, 04:09 PM) QUOTE I don't feel afraid...I respect God and His power, but I don't cower in fear. Reject the bible then, be a good caring person without the bible, if you truly believe in a loving god, who you surely believe is watching your every action, then you should have nothing to fear. I think you do fear god, you fear not accepting jesus because the bible says that those who reject christ will perish. * Bill, I'm not afraid of God...you'll just have to take my word for it...look in my profile, do I look afraid? Read all of my posts....do I sound like a spineless coward? Armless knucklehead...maybe...but I assure you...my life has never been run fron a fearful perspective. I accepted Christ at age 12...not because I was afraid of hell...but because someone told me that I could have a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. * QUOTE It has nothing to do with their achievements, humanitarian awards etc...nor does it have to do with who've they've cheated, lied to, or hurt in this life. So basically your saying the bible teaches you how to do less in this world. Be a prick and an asshole to everyone, just make sure you accept christ. *It doesn't sound like that to me, but maybe my communication skills have gone to pot.* QUOTE When this person accepted Christ, they were completely forgiven...the slate was wiped clean...HOWEVER, THEY MUST NOW GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR LIFE FROM THAT POINT ON. While their eternal destination(heaven or hell) is not in question. Their rewards, and position are affected by their sins Earlier you said it has nothing to do with achievements, and humanitarian awards, they just have to accept christ, then you said that after you have accepted christ your slate was wiped clean. Then you continued to say that after you have had your slate wiped clean, your rewards and position are affected by your sins. I thought the slate was wiped clean, how can you be rewarded and given a position when your sins have been forgiven? God has forgotten them, you can kill babies, eat people, blow up cars, slash throats, kill more babies, skin people alive then accept christ and all is good. Jeffrey dahmer accept christ, he must be so happy that he can sing to god for eternity, even though he photographed a dead corpse of someone's precious life with their stomach removed. *I thought that I was pretty clear about the distinction between the 2 groups* QUOTE Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of....does God claim to want to make the world a better place...in fact He says that those that have accepted him are aliens here, and we will suffer here, also we are not supposed to be conformed to this world WRONG, god is all loving, you can't be all loving and want your own creation to turn to shit. All loving means you cannot possess feelings of hate, making people suffer is a form of evilness. God get's angry, you can't be all loving and be angry, if he was all loving he would punish people in a non-emotional way, for things like murder, rape, and not things as stupid as not believing in something without proof. If He is all loving he would eventually have an overwhelming desire to free prisoners in hell, and give them a second chance. You say that I'm wrong...I can provide verses to back-up my personal opinion...I'd like to hear verses that state otherwise. QUOTE The Bible predicts this, in fact the there is a time coming where people will be completely blinded, and it won't be possible to turn to Christ anymore. I don't believe that Christianity is or ever will be close to dying. That isn't a prediction, it is a guess, of course people are going to reject christ, they have no physical proof of his existence. When you write a book with as many contradictions with childish ways, it's inevitable for a human (one with a conscience) to accept such bullshit. It's no surprise that the Bible is meaningless to you...I don't need to discuss that... The bible makes future guesses, the guesses have no date, and are written in such a way that they can be attributed to many different situations, the less specific the easier it is to ascribe to any situation. QUOTE Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. The goal of the bible isn't to make the world a better place, it's goal is to convert as many people as possible. If the goal was to make the world a better place, it would be achieved because god is all powerful, it's funny because his goal of converting as many people as possible didn't work either even though he is all powerful. Christianity is dying, is this part of invisible yahwehs plan *This was actually Bill's quote...not mine...just my inability to use colored print.* Again, biblically-speaking heaven or hell doesn't really relate to sin, unless it's the sin of rejecting Christ. <<Except this part Bill, I won't take it personally...we've interacted before...with no malice...Happy holidays! Posted by: likeafish Dec 24 2003, 05:04 PM QUOTE What's "real" to myself or the Mormon...really shouldn't matter to you anyway...What is real to you...from experience...is what should be important to you. Jeff, That sounds almost like something out of a 12 step program or even slightly Buddhist. But does it bother you at all that your god would do such a thing as what you describe in your picture of judgement day? You make it sound so mundane. Eternal punishment for thinking for yourself? Eternal pain for looking around and using your (god given!) abilities to determine that there is no god, just us, and we must choose how to make the best of this world, this life, to take responsibility for it? Eternal suffering because we chose sense over theological nonsense, ancient myth, religious authorities, and a confusing jumble of truth claims coming from every angle of a church that is in no way unified as its namesake claimed it would be? That is disturbing, that is horrible, that is psychological terrorism if you asked me. That not something simple to be just brushed aside. If you really accept this as real, where is your desparation for your fellow human beings? The quote above seems to suggest either you don't take this ghastly end to humanity seriously, or you don't care. You can't say what you just said above and then tell me you love your fellows if god is really going to cast us all into eternal damnation. those two do not fit together. Do you see that? I am not tormented now by being "seperate" from Jesus. Why must he inflict eternal pain upon me at my death, because I did not carry in my mind a proper assent to the above described "truth." A person's life counts for nothing. What we do is meaningless to god. Then why all these concerns for ethical behavior if, in the end, he only wants allegiance? That or we will be tortured eternally. That is what you believe? That's cruel, plain and simple. Steve Posted by: AggieNostic Dec 24 2003, 06:50 PM QUOTE (No surprises @ Dec 24 2003, 06:07 PM) What's "real" to myself or the Mormon...really shouldn't matter to you anyway...What is real to you...from experience...is what should be important to you. It wouldn't matter to me except people's "real personal" experiences have a way of determining how they conduct their lives, which invariably involves interacting with other human beings. People who have "real personal" experiences do not live in a vacuum. Depending on how people use their "real personal" experience, the impact on a non-believer's existence could range from none to obnoxiously intrusive. Also, it does "matter" to me because I'm interested in knowing what is "universally real" ... not what is "personally real." Which is an oxymoron anyway because either something is real (true) everywhere in all instances or it is not. You cannot have something be "personally real" and also not "universally real." P.S. My anecdotal experiences are important to me. But, they don't determine what is "real." They may contribute towards the case of understanding reality. But, I'm not going to make the claim that just because I experience something, it must therefore be universally real and true. P.S.S. I'll tell you another reason why it "matters" to me as someone who is interesting in knowing what is really real versus that which only seems real but only exists in the mind of the beholder -- and that reason is that I cannot find out what is really real if two individuals have "real personal" experiences, but those experiences lead to different conclusions about reality. Unless you're willing to concede that Mormonism and fundamentalist Christianity can be simultaneously real (true), it's not useful just to accept that both religionists had "real personal" experiences and therefore it shouldn't matter. It matters very much. Either one of those religionists has been mislead by their own feelings/experience or they both are mistaken. But, they both cannot have experienced something that exists in reality. The burning bosom was either in the mind of the Mormon or it was a real physiological occurrence. The feeling of Christ being a real presence was either in the mind of the fundamentalist Christian or it was genuine sensation because it is somehow possible for the Christ Spirit to make itself known to our physical existence. Or, both the burning bosom AND the Christ presence were merely creations of the mind of each religionist. Posted by: chefranden Dec 24 2003, 06:56 PM Jeff, 4. God is rational: meaning that he would act in accord with his highest purpose. QUOTE (No surprises) *I'm not sure about the def. of "rational", there is a lot about God, that I don't understand. I do know some about his character though...He is the same yesterday,, today, and forever, and I know that His ways are not man's ways...so, is he rational in a worldly sense?...I'm not sure. Rational in the sense that God will not act against his own interests. If he did he would be too capricious to rely on. It is not the case that all, or almost all humans have come to a saving faith in Jesus. Therefore there does not exist a being that posses all four properties. Therefore the Christian God Yahweh does not exist. QUOTE (No surprises) Chef, I hope that I'm not off base here...but, from the things you've said... It doesn't seem like you want a "saving faith in Jesus" I think that you've been pretty clear about that...as have many others here. So are you saying that if God is real...He could and should force you to submit to Him? I don't want a God like that...And I don't want my God to "make" you do anything. You are not off base. You have just missed the point. If God existed he would do what ever it takes to present convincing evidence of his existence, goodness, and intentions to everyone. This has not been done, myriads of people have died without even hearing. The bible is not sufficient evidence of his existence, and it certainly is not evidence of his goodness – quite to the contrary. (1Sam 15:1-3). Study of the bible lead to my de-conversion. I converted before I knew it well. There is nothing of force in compelling evidence. “It is not the case that all, or almost all…”, is the argument giving room for free will if there is such a thing. QUOTE Also, I appreciate your words, and wishes concerning my daughter Courtney. Do I strike you as a fire and brimstone type of guy Chef? I'll try to post a pic of she and I. It is not necessary to speak of hell to a child to scare one. I did not do so with my oldest, now 26, yet he discerned the premise of love god or die, and he was very frightened. He got over it around the age of 20. This is something that I didn’t know until about 6 months ago. You may not know it either, which is why I mentioned it. QUOTE Would you say that having unnprotected sexual intercourse at the age of 14 with a 42 yr old HIV infected heroin addict... iis a stupid choice? I don't think that you could control that, as well as lots of other "real life" examples for both of us. Absolutely! Of course you don’t have the power to stop that. I can’t imagine that you would not have stopped it if the circumstances allowed. But we are not discussing your existence, are we? Christian God has the power, knowledge, and supposedly the motivation to stop such things, but does not. If you as a father were in the presence of your daughter and this man, would you have said, “well it’s her choice”? Of course not. Don’t lets be silly! Supposedly though she and the guy were in the presence of God, right? According to the infallible word of God, Yahweh killed Uzzah for merely trying to save the Ark of the Covenant from falling, right?. How much more did this guy deserve death when he first laid a hand on the girl with this intent? Are you saying that your daughter, if you are speaking of her, deserves this for the purpose preserving this guy’s free will, or even her own underdeveloped free will? Of course you don't think that, but that is the reductio ad absurdum of your aguement from free will. I don’t mean to add to your anguish, but even if I were a believer I wouldn’t let God take care of anything more important then walking the dog after that. Would you consider even your best friend a moral man if he stood by and let it happen? I think not. Yet, you are willing to believe in the existence of an all good, all powerful, all good God even though he just stands by in hundreds of thousands of such cases just like this one every day. This does not compute. Chef Posted by: BillJ Dec 24 2003, 07:28 PM QUOTE Bill, I'm not afraid of God...you'll just have to take my word for it...look in my profile, do I look afraid? Read all of my posts....do I sound like a spineless coward? Armless knucklehead...maybe...but I assure you...my life has never been run fron a fearful perspective. I accepted Christ at age 12...not because I was afraid of hell...but because someone told me that I could have a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I'll take your word for it. QUOTE When this person accepted Christ, they were completely forgiven...the slate was wiped clean...HOWEVER, THEY MUST NOW GIVE AN ACCOUNT FOR THEIR LIFE FROM THAT POINT ON. While their eternal destination(heaven or hell) is not in question. Their rewards, and position are affected by their sins acceptence of christ = slate wiped clean You said heaven or hell isn't in question, and that their rewards and position are affected by their sins. Are you trying to tell me that they are going to heaven because they accepted christ, but are limited to certain pleasures because of their sins? QUOTE It has nothing to do with their achievements, humanitarian awards etc...nor does it have to do with who've they've cheated, lied to, or hurt in this life. You said good deeds are meaningless, and that bad deeds are forgiven if you accept christ. I dont understand, you can choose to not help the world, and you can choose to hurt cheat and lie, and as long as you have accepted jesus you aren't going to hell. Are you saying that achievements and sins won't cause you to burn in the fiery pit, but determined that you are going to heaven, but since you still did bad things even though you accepted christ, you are, like I said before, limited to your heavenly bliss? QUOTE Nowhere in the Bible that I am aware of....does God claim to want to make the world a better place...in fact He says that those that have accepted him are aliens here, and we will suffer here, also we are not supposed to be conformed to this world You say that I'm wrong...I can provide verses to back-up my personal opinion...I'd like to hear verses that state otherwise. Being labelled as loving means that you want to make this world a better place, and yes the bible does say god is loving. If there is a loving god with the intelligence to create a rational brain like mine, I can assure you that they would not send me to hell because I didn't accept someone (jesus) who I don't know anything about, don't know if he really wrote those words, and I don't know he even exists. If I go to hell then that means god isn't good, and it means that my rational brain was nothing but a piece of organic trash. I cannot accept someone I don't know, and if I go to hell because I choose not to accept someone who is as existent in my brain as whinny the pooh, then so be it. I'll join satan's army, which if hell exists we know that his army is 1000 fold bigger then gods army. I believe only 33% of world is christian, so that would give you idea of the massive amount of future hell soldiers, if in fact such a ridiculous place exists. QUOTE It's no surprise that the Bible is meaningless to you...I don't need to discuss that... I only find the verses that don't make logical sense to be meaningless, verses with suffering of innocents and verses that invoke fear are repeated. I tried to find a verse I liked to show you, but almost every verse in bible says: I am god the best damn thing ever, screw non-believers and the wicked who really just need some help, praise the lord, praise jesus, god is the best, jesus is the greatest, o yeah praise the lord. Like marilyn manson said the bible doesn't praise intelligence, only god praises himself, it doesn't say much about nature being spiritual, it only talks about the holy spirit. If you can find a verse that says that I am worth something, for who I am as of now, I will give that particular verse some credit, and maybe it will have some meaning to me. Posted by: BillJ Dec 24 2003, 08:01 PM Jeff, I seen the picture in your profile, your daughter is going to grow up to be an attractive women. It makes me sad to see you in the condition your in, but then I see that your smiling, and it doesn't bother me as much. Sorry for asking this, but I'm not sure exactly how fast you can type, I won't expect you to reply to my post with huge paragraphs. I can tone down my posts a bit if you want, I'm known for being harsh and not so much respectable. I'm not trying to treat you better because of your condition, I try to treat everyone equally with respect, and If I am just boring you with my trash talk, I can remove anything negative (jeffrey dahmer argument) (joining satan's army, though I probably would rebel against satan too) and try to understand your way of thinking better. That is all I'm trying to do, is learn why people choose to believe in certain things. I'm choosing to follow my conscience, I am less negative, I don't neglect animals, I don't hate things as much, and I am going to better myself, and when I look back at all the good things I have done, I think a little hospitality after I die would be nice. I don't believe in the bible, but if I end up infront of god's throne, and jesus is there, I really hope that I am greeted with love. If I feel I should be punished for bad things I have done, well I think I deserve it, but to leave me in the lake of fire forever, wouldn't be too nice. Everyone is capable of change, and I dont think eternal damnation will do much for them, you might as well just make them non-existent, because after 1000 years of torture, they are going to get used to the heat, and it won't be so much torture anymore, in the pain sense, but torure through bordom. Posted by: fortunehooks Dec 24 2003, 08:07 PM happy holidays to whoever celebrates them. i don't pray on christmas day, so please don't assume i do. likeafish: are you typing that the xtian god discriminates? if you are i agree to the highest definition of the word agree. it's troubling to me when i realize how the quest for salvation has way to many folks salivating, and disregarding the rest of the human population as if the xtian god was just doing it's job. eternal, maybe when you think about that word find a dictionary and analyze the word in full. i've seen people who died at 18 and wouldn't be considered to be righteous to some,but they were always good to me. i couldn't think of my friends who have died so young spending damnation in a hell created by the xtian god. it saddens to even acknowledge that my family believes wholeheartedly in this type of cruelty,and torment. i wonder,and then i realize that biblegod does love to see his divine plan for punishment enforced in full. take a look in the mirror. Posted by: No surprises Dec 25 2003, 01:08 AM O.K guys I'm feeling pretty overwhelmed...but I'm very interested in all of the points that you've made, so I'll try to address as much as possible. Steve, you said: "Jeff, That sounds almost like something out of a 12 step program or even slightly Buddhist." *.I've never been through a 12 step program, or studied Buddhism. I'll give you a personal example of what I'm trying to say about what is real for me. Most of you know about my physical circumstances...I had 14,400 volts running through my body, then had my arms cut off. I can still feel my hands...I can even move them. The down side is that my hands feel like someone took a razor blade and made hundreds of cuts all over my hands, then dipped them in a cauldron filled with thick tar, mixed with lemon juice...it's difficult to open my fingers...there is resistance, and they sting like crazy. Also, it feels like they've added a 110 volt electric wire to the mix...so I'm getting shocked as well. The bad thing about this pain is that it is never-ending...24/7. That is my baseline pain...I have more pain in a 1 hr period than I had in the 30 yrs before my accident...combined. On my new pain scale...I consider that a 3 on a scale of 1-10. When it hits 8...I can't think or talk...I just thrash around in my bed...sweating profusely and moaning. The good thing about my pain...is that it is 24/7...I've learned to deal with it...without medication. Try explaining this pain to a physician...I'm telling you right now from experience...they have absolutely no comprehension of my pain...they can't see it...they don't really understand "phantom pain" But I assure you...It is very real to me. While I've given you guys a pretty vivid description of my pain...I can't expect you to completely believe me or understand. However if Steve or Chef had lost a couple of limbs...it's quite possible that they could empathize with me. If you've never felt the presence of God, and you've never watched as God has answered your prayers, and you've never seen a miracle that can't be explained...then I can't help you understand what I'm talking about...I agree 100% that it isn't logical or rational...but it is very real to me. You guys have been vey patient and gracious to me...I have tears in my eyes as I type...you really have impacted my life in a very positive way. I can't explain why...I've been made fun of, mocked, cussed out, and ganged up on...but in the end...you've made yourselves vulnerable, and let your true selves shine through...it's truly touched me. It makes no sense...that a pack of atheist, deist, agnostic, christian/Christ haters could make me feel welcome and loved...it's not logical or rational, but it's how I feel. Steve, I don't trivialize eternity...I deeply care about and love all of humanity. I've defined hell as eternal seperation from God. You've stated that you like being seperated from Christ...you want to think for yourself, and do whatever you want...when you want to. If this Christianity stuff is just a bunch of crap...like you all seem to think it is...why shoud being eternally seperated from the poster child(Jesus) and a bunch of His flaky, fraudulent, fanatical followers...be a punishment? Isn't this exactly what your spending your time here on earth wanting? Christ has made His case...I can't make it for Him...I don't need to. I think you have a very clear understanding of what he wants from you...he wants you to love Him, and serve Him. I know..."serve" sounds utterly repulsive...but it's not to me...my life is filled with joy and peace...right in the midst of pain and agony. Do I come across as a mindless borg or some Sunday morning phony to you? Steve...Do I seem cruel, heartless and unconcerned for you? You've seen my hooks...I only use one, as the other arm was amputated very near the shoulder...count these letters...then tape a pencil to your elbow, and type this amount of words. Still think I don't care about you? The reality is...never mind...I can't make you believe how I feel. I can only do my best to show you. I was reading some other posts the other day...and there was discussion about motives and conversion and stuff like that. I can honestlly say that I'm not trying to change anyones mind, or convert/re-convert anybody...I just want you to know me...for who I really am...then decide if you love me or hate me. I guess that is my motive...not really poetic or philosophical...but it's real. Can you handle that? But does it bother you at all that your god would do such a thing as what you describe in your picture of judgement day? You make it sound so mundane. Eternal punishment for thinking for yourself? Eternal pain for looking around and using your (god given!) abilities to determine that there is no god, just us, a |