Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format

Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Old Board > The Old "Forgiveness" Thread

Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 09:25 AM

ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > Forgiveness Posted by: Reach Feb 18 2004, 09:04 PM Forgiveness. How do we get there? There are so many obstacles in the way: abuse, rejection, killing words, war zones and killing fields, rape, incest, murder and every conceivable manner of emotional molestation. I don't want to exclude the failure of faith and a deity, but I'd like to cover more than that. I was commenting on another topic today. I mentioned being raped before and that was a tough thing to walk away from, without carrying the chains that would bind. I was raped one time but I refused to let that one man rape me for the rest of my life. He only got me once. I didn't give him the freedom to color my attitudes about my five brothers and all the other men who would be part of my life, be it for a moment, a day, a year or decades. I was 22 when it happened but I was also 22 when I got free from him. What was harder for me to let go of was this: I don't mean to be crude here, so I hope what follows isn't too offensive. Maybe two months before I was raped, another man put a loaded gun to my head and forced me to give him a blowjob. It was ghastly, to say the least and it left me very turned off to doing that kind of thing ever again. I had to either get over that, or deny the man I married the following year, something that would bring him great pleasure. It was most difficult but eventually, after a couple years, I did get to the point where I could enjoy him fully without seeing that loaded gun in my face. That was hard for me and it was scary and painful but I broke free. No more loaded gun pointing at me. I BROKE FREE said this... QUOTE There have been people in my life that have wronged me terribly and I held that anger with me for years. It has only been in the last ten years that I have learned how to forgive them and in turn give up the hate that was once bottled up inside me. Learning to forgive is a wonderful freeing experience. If it is not too personal, could you discuss with us your feelings about these men who raped and threatened you? I will understand if you feel that it is too personal. I'm going to answer IBF's question. In the meantime, how have you found success in breaking through to forgiveness? I know I can share some things here because I truly live in the forgiveness mode. I walk in it everyday, by choice. Just being on this site, as a Xtian, requires me to do some forgiving and letting go on a regular basis (Doncha know? *wink*). I've found forgiveness to be costly. But the alternative, bitterness, is deadly. I truly believe with all of my heart and mind that we are healthier without bitterness, which produces so much in our life we'd be better off discarding. While I piece together more of my story, have you made a choice to try and forgive someone? Are you getting there? How are you doing it? Are you able to let go? Do you see the light at the end of the tunnel? I refuse to be held captive by things in the past. I'm owning my life. It's all I have. When everything is stripped away, I only have me. So I allow no one to hold my mind in a vice grip. I will break free. How about you? Let's drop some of our load and let's get there. Emancipated: set free and restored to liberty. Are you letting go of the ties that bind? reach Posted by: Cerise Feb 18 2004, 10:03 PM This is a bit of a hot spot with me. Forgiveness. I've had so many people come up to me and tell me that I need to forgive the men who hurt me. That I wouldn't be "free" until I did so and that I was "letting them take control of my life." Please understand, I'm glad that others have found refuge in forgiveness, that they can embrace that as part of their healing that that it is helping. But please also understand that it hurts those of us that don't feel inclined to forgive to hear that perhaps we are somehow lesser then those who do choose to forgive. Heavens, I've even been accused by people of my grandmother's church of being just as bad as a rapist by refusing to forgive one. Do you know how bad that makes me feel? How insulting that is? Forgiveness is a personal choice. I don't believe I am binding myself to those who hurt me by refusing to tell them I don't hate them for it. Because I do. I hate them. Probably more then I've ever hated anyone in my life. And I don't think I'm a bad person for hating rapists and pedophiles. I just don't. And there was a time when my anger and hatred, yes and 'bitterness' as you say, was the only thing keeping me alive. Sometimes I think that if I wasn't so very angry at what happened, at the fact that it was happening to others, is happening to others still, if I didn't have that hatred then I would have probably given up. For me, forgiveness isn't going to stop the flashbacks and the body memories. Forgiveness isn't going to make the boogie-man go away or decrease the shadows under my bed. It won't give me a trusting relationship and it won't let me sleep at night. That only thing that can do that for me is time. Time to dull the memories. Time to dull the fear. Just time. For me, healing isn't about letting go of everything, if it were then forgetting would be my prime goal. I could drown myself in drugs and alcohol and accomplish the same thing. No, healing is about living well with what you have. Yes, these things in my life effect me. They will continue to effect me throughout my life, maybe in the way I always make sure doors are locked behind me, maybe in the way I check every bathroom stall before using a public washroom, maybe in the way blue blankets will always make me feel a bit nauseous. But that doesn't mean that I'm failing, or that somewhere out there all the ones who have hurt me are winning. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm still living I've already won. I think if I were going to forgive anyone, I'd have to start by learning to forgive myself, for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, for being an ignorant child, for believing lies, for daring to walk into a shop in broad daylight, for things beyond my control that I still feel guilt for. Forgive my parents for things beyond their control, for not being omniscient, for not being omnipotent, for not being able to protect me from the world. But even forgiving myself for something I didn't deserve seems a daunting task right now. I think, only once I've figured out how to do that, can I ever begin to start thinking about how to forgive various monsters for things they definitely do not deserve my precious forgiveness for. I am sorry if my words have offended. Posted by: Starflier Feb 18 2004, 10:09 PM Hi Reach, Nice of you to open this topic. First of all I should mention my issues on forgiveness or not date back to my early childhood & total rejction of me by my father that lasted until the day he died. That issue has colored every relationship with every man in my life especially in my intimate relationships & 3 marriages. So............ About forgiveness: I'm still not sure exactly what that means. I think it means moving on in one's life & still being open to love & trusting others & oneself. And not rehearsing in one's mind or speech all the past issues that deal with abuse or transgressions against oneself by others. That would be like giving up wallowing in it & thus dragging it along in all one's relationships, even with oneself. But if group or private therapy of any sort is needed to assist one to get on with one's life, then the issues would necessarily have to be thought of, spoken about, even in depth often repeatedly. I see a lot of that ongoing here on this site in fact. Also this has happened to me a few times in my life realted to my relationship issues stemming from my nonrelationship with my father. I have found tho, that often, if the bitter, painful issues stem from early childhood or even one's birth, there seems to remain an imprint of them on one's subconscious mind somehow. So that in one form or another they keep repeating in one's life albeit unconsciously & unbidden no matter how much one has "forgiven" or "forgotten" the original cause or event. Thus different but similar events trigger the same old anger & bitterness from the original cause of it. So the wounds reopen & all the same or worse pain is experienced. This has been the case for me anyway. So while one might say or believe they have indeed forgiven or broken free on a conscious level, still subconsciously unbeknownst to them, it hasn't entirely disappeared from one's life stream. For me I think that meant picking men in my life that reminded me of my father, including his neglect of me, albeit unknown by me who thought I'd "forgiven" or "forgot" it or moved past it somehow. So though my male relationships might start out well enough in a mutually caring, loving way, they often ended in disaster with bad feelings remaining on both sides. Although not in ALL cases for me. And certainly not with my two sons, brother or male in laws. Tho that varies a bit from person to person. But for the most part I do get along well with them all & feel love for them & vice versa. If that is forgiveness of my father, then I guess it never was an issue I carred into other male relationships even as a child. But that's not all....... Another way to look at forgiveness is not to feel so angry as to do a vengeful act on the transgressor against us. Or to misplace that vengence onto another target, human, animal or otherwise. The anger might still be felt but it is not acted on, in other words. It is then controlled anger. One could even say it is suppressed anger or bitterness. In other words the anger or bitterness might be purposefully cancelled from one's thoughts every time that thought surfaces until, at some point in time, there is no further need to consciously suppress it as has become an automatically unaware process. It is then sufficiently suppressed. I would guess this is somewhat the process you endured with your gun-to-head image & attendant feelings. In your case I'd say the love you & your husband shared was a great factor in assisting you with that process & releasing it. But where does it go really? Apparently for some, like myself, it remains in the subconscious or somewhere hidden in the body-mind from even one's own view. Only to surface in another form when triggered by another person or event. Now how to finally get rid of it in one's subconscious is the real challenge as I see it. And in fact is what I've been trying to do one way or another for nearly all my life. I doubt I've completely accomplished it even now. I may never totally do so. And frankly I've given up trying by now of ever having a truly loving relationship with a man. For I don't want any of my subconscious nonforgiveness to affect yet another intimate relationship disastrously. I couldn't stand to go through that ever again. So whether that means I've sufficiently "forgiven" or broken free is the arguable it seems. How will I ever know for sure? That is the question. Posted by: Reach Feb 18 2004, 10:25 PM Cerise, It's all choice. Whatever keeps one alive, at any given point in time, is a good thing. I celebrate life while I still wipe away some tears once in a while. My comments were not from any position of superiority. Not at all. This topic is not a debate. It's about choices. I've made some of my own and I'm free. You haven't offended me in the least but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for choosing something which brought me freedom. I love life, but only when I'm not in chains. I'm free of the monsters. No more. No less. And this is not an "us vs. them" debate. reach Posted by: chefranden Feb 18 2004, 10:53 PM I have a forgiveness issue left over from Vietnam. Oddly enough it is not for the VC or NVA soldiers. Those poor saps were just trying to get us out of their affairs. No I'm still angry about my country sending me/us to do such a useless thing. Sent us to a war the Johnson escalated just because he didn't want to go down in history as the only president to lose a war. I took part in the Cambodian incursion in 1970 our actions there pushed the NVA further west into Cambodia. Since we had their supplies the NVA took what they needed from the locals. That and the secret carpet bombing along the Ho Chi Ming trail forced the rural people to join Pol Pot, who until then was a minor bandit, in the north. The carpet bombing killed 100s of Thousands. Eventually Pol Pot killed a million or more Cambodians. At one point our government even supported Pol Pot against the Prince. I have trouble forgiving the whole of the United States for sending my into that mess, for taking advantage of my stupid kidness. I have my flashbacks, and dreams to keep me going and going and going, along the unforgiveness trail. Posted by: Reach Feb 18 2004, 11:11 PM Me too Chef. My favorite brother came back from Vietnam but he never made it in to a port of safety. He was back for about six months and I came home to find him drunk. The rest of the family was out on a vacation. He and I couldn't (and didn't necessarily want to) leave our jobs for a family outing. I'd never seen my brother sauced before and he was sobbing, "I killed a man! I killed a man!" All I knew to do was sit on the floor and hold him in my arms. He was on a PT boat in the Mekong Delta. My brother noticed a man in the water swimming up to the boat with a grenade in his teeth. He pointed it out to the Officer in Charge (OIC) and the OIC said, "Shoot him." Much argument ensued, killing words and rage and fear. In the end my brother shot and killed. When he saw the floating enemy, just as death took its toll, he saw a 15 year old boy. He's never gotten over this. I've loved my brother my whole life but all we ever do when we talk about Vietnam is cry. Is there any help out there for him? Returning to SFO (San Francisco International Airport) from Vietnam, the first American to run into him spit in his face. He's never been able to wash that spittle away. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 18 2004, 11:52 PM I suspect that I must forgive... something in the past. The problem is I can't put my finger on it. My rage has become disassoicated from my memories. I don't wish to be defined by my rage. I've never looked at an angry person and thought "Wow, there is an enlightened well adjusted individual." So I'm looking for ways to let it go. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 12:11 AM This is a needed thread, I think. And a needed reminder that it's not an 'us' vs. 'them' debate, whomever those two factions might be. I hope some of the guys will add their thoughts and experiences, too (which may have happened by the time I'm finished writing and submitting this post). As an overview, I'd say an enormous amount of whatever strength I've had in dealing with 'transgressions against me' has come from growing up in abject poverty. I highly recommend it for the development of a sense of humor, of perspective, and of context. These three things, for me, have freed me from (most, not all) feelings of anger, hatred and resentment against those who've maltreated me. These I've turned to for strength and survival because I don't understand the nature of forgiveness. Someone once said, "Forgiveness should only be given to those who ask for it." That I understand -- the dismissal of acknowledged debt/wrong by the one to whom the debt is owed or the wrong was done. But this isn't always possible. Their are thieves in the night who damage and wrong us in so many ways, then disappear from the light of reckoning. I have no understanding of what it means to forgive them. My life has been spent in the company of, mostly, such good people. The men in my life have been, mostly, of excellent character and unwavering goodness. Many men have heroically done right by me. But the wrongs that have hurt me the most have been done to me by men. Here are four of them: I am an eleven-year-old-girl walking along a public street, on my way to see a Saturday afternoon movie. It's one with Jane Powell in it, and I'm thinking of her and how much I love her movies, and how lucky I am to get to see her and hear her sing again. My young self is completely given over to these young thoughts and anticipations, when a man somewhere in his 'forties, who has been walking toward me, stops directly in front of me and says, "You have very nice breasts for a girl your age." My self is wiped away. The habit of politeness remains. I say, "Thank you," and walk on with jello knees. (This one was recalled to me by Reach's story.) I am 21, at my first job as a cocktail waitress. One of the guys in the band offers to drive me to my car after work, since I had had to park at some distance. He doesn't drive me there. He takes a revolver out of the glove compartment and drives me to a lonely road, where he keeps the gun at my head while he makes me give him a blowjob. We both show up for work the next night. He and I never talk again. I never tell anybody about it. I am 24, a single mother living alone. The phone rings and one of my neighbors tells me he's in the bar around the corner and that when he hangs up he's coming to fuck me and I'd better not lock the door on him or he'll break it down. (This is before the institution of the 911 emergency number.) I gather up my sleeping little girls, aged three and five, one under each arm, and race for my car. I put them in the back seat, climb behind the wheel, start the engine, begin to pull away from the curb, and he leaps in front of my car. I brake. I call to him, get away! get away! I'll run over you! He raises his arms in the air and screams, I don't care! My girls are crying, terrified. If I back up, I'll back into another car. I start edging the car forward, forward. It knocks him down. I drive slowly over him, and can feel/hear the scraping, bumping; my girls screaming. Then I look in my rear-view mirror and see him standing in the street, a grease streak completely down the front of him. I speed away, telling my girls, look! look! look out the window! He's okay! Mommy didn't kill him! But mommy would have killed him. I am 35. A job I need desperately comes, I begin to learn, with the requirement of my occasionally sitting in the straight-backed wooden chair in the boss's office while he stands behind me, fondling my breasts, mumbling obscenities to himself, and jacking off. In the scheme of things, I know I'm lucky. What's happened to me is not so bad as so many things that happen to people at the hands of other people. But they were the things that happened to happen to me. And somehow I had to place them somewhere, give them context within all the other, happy, glorious things that had happened to me. I had to gain perspective on these guys in light of what I knew about all the other wonderful men in my life. And, finally, I came to a place where I could laugh at the thought of these sick, pathetic bastards, thinking their pitiful and fleeting power over me could gain them anything that was mine. They all missed getting me. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 12:25 AM Chef. Terrible. Too terrible. I've often thought that an official U.S. Government apology to all the victims of that war, victims on both sides, would at least begin some kind of honesty, which might begin some kind of healing. Erik. I understand much of where you are. Posted by: biggles7268 Feb 19 2004, 04:43 AM The people who do these things do not deserve forgiveness, not in the least. I don't believe in Hell, but I wish there was something like that for them, it's all they deserve. I really have no business telling anyone how to get over their pain, and certainly no preacher has a right to either. Reading that they were actually making you feel bad about it and saying you were as bad as them made me very angry. You bear no responsibility for being a victim and anyone who says different gets my boot shoved so far up his ass he'll be able to taste the leather. Perhaps some of my feelings in this comes from the fact that 3 out of 4 of the women that I've dated had been abused one way or another during their lives. This covers everything from child molestation to spousal abuse, and every single one of the guys who did it to them got away with it because no one would beleive them. I was going to post something that happened to a friend of mine who's in Iraq right now, but I don't think it's relevant. Anyway all I can think to say is that my love goes out to all of you, but I have nothing but hate for the sick people who did those things. Posted by: Cerise Feb 19 2004, 08:23 AM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 18 2004, 10:25 PM) Cerise, It's all choice. Whatever keeps one alive, at any given point in time, is a good thing. I celebrate life while I still wipe away some tears once in a while. My comments were not from any position of superiority. Not at all. This topic is not a debate. It's about choices. I've made some of my own and I'm free. You haven't offended me in the least but at the same time I'm not going to apologize for choosing something which brought me freedom. I love life, but only when I'm not in chains. I'm free of the monsters. No more. No less. And this is not an "us vs. them" debate. reach I don't want apologies Reach. And if I did you wouldn't be the one who needed to provide me with them. And I'm sorry if it appeared I was making it into an "us vs them debate" because that truly wasn't my intention. I only wanted to express my own feelings and thoughts regarding the subject and I did say that I understood others' need to forgive in order to heal but that it just wasn't the same for me. You may say that I haven't offended but all the same it feels as though I have. It's rather funny you know. After all theses years I still haven't learned my place, still haven't learned to be silent. Pitchu you ARE a beautiful snowflake. Never change. ((((hugs)))) Biggles, thank you dear one, for knowing exactly what I needed to hear. Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 08:40 AM Starflier, What a rich post! Thank you! I know the rejection of a father. Mine walked out when I was two years old and I never saw him until I went looking for him when I was 19. That's another story. I imagine I'll tell it here some time. I've forgiven him but touching that wound still makes me cry. You said it best already... "total rejection of me by my father." I think you're right in that we seem to attract to ourselves, or purposefully choose without even being aware of the fact, the men who are like that father, or that one who failed us. We seem to have this deep-seated need to right the situation. I think that recognizing that can free us up to make more intelligent choices, based on reality and not fantasy. Some people won't change and some relationships will remain broken. QUOTE In other words the anger or bitterness might be purposefully cancelled from one's thoughts every time that thought surfaces until, at some point in time, there is no further need to consciously suppress it as has become an automatically unaware process. It is then sufficiently suppressed. I don't think it has to be suppressed. I think it can be cast aside. I'm reminded of a Bible verse (I John 4:18) that says there is no fear in love; but perfect love drives out or casts out fear because fear has torment or punishment. I believe that in an atmosphere of nurturing love and unconditional acceptance, from another person or one's self, fear fades away, in time... I know that's not everyone's experience. It doesn't fit every situation. It fit some of mine. Grief had such a hold on me. I had to let it go because it was killing me. Erik mentioned anger. For me it was grief. I think of these as killing fields. I had to search for and then carefully dig up the claymore mines or they would have taken me out eventually. It was dig or die. ***** Cerise, no offense at all. Apparently, the tone of my words could have been warmer. My apology for that as it was unintentional. This is a tough subject, isn't it? *hugs* Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 09:10 AM One short story... A man falls into a deep hole. A doctor walks by and the man calls from the hole, "Doctor, can you get me out?" The doctor writes a prescription and drops it down to him and leaves. The prescription, of course, doesn't help the man. Soon a priest walks by and the man calls from the hole, "Can you help me?" The priest writes a prayer and drops it down to him. The prayer, of course, doesn't help the man. Later a friend walks by and the man calls from the hole, "Can you help me?" The friend jumps down into the hole with the man for which the man replies, "What good will this do? Now there are two of us in the hole." The friend replies, "Don't worry; I've been here before and I know the way out." Author unknown much love, reach Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 10:03 AM This one is for pitchu, especially, thinking of her story of when she was eleven... A true story... A father waits at Chicago's O'Hare Airport for a connecting flight to take him home to Montreal, Quebec. He's so tired that even his laptop with his friendly online connections isn't attractive enough at the moment to overcome his fatigue and draw him in. He waits, exhausted from his business dealings all week, three cities coast to coast, in five days. He sits and waits. His wandering mind lands on his four children and where they're at. Two of them will soar as eagles, be successful at whatever they touch. But the other two... It's Friday afternoon. They are all teenagers and probably have plans for the evening. He makes a call home to the wife and asks her if she can ask the kids, tonight, could everyone stay home for a family meal because he has something to talk about that's very important. She promises to do her best. He asks her to beg them if she has to. Just this once. He can make dinner by eight. Eight o'clock at the table, everyone is there. He asks, "Did someone ever do something to you or say something to you that got inside of you and hurt you and stole part of who you were supposed to be?" The two children that he thought would soar as eagles one day shook their heads, "No." The other son started crying quietly, but the seventeen year old daughter broke out in uncontrollable sobs. It was several minutes before she gained control of herself. She was five years old. It was her first day of school and daddy was walking her out to the school bus stop while mom was finishing up with packing the lunches for the four of them. She was so excited because she could finally join her siblings and go to school like a big girl. She had new shoes, her very first lunch box, pretty ribbons in her hair and she didn't want to miss the bus so daddy and she got there 10 minutes early, just in case. The big moment arrived and the bus pulled up. The four children, after kisses from their dad, hopped on to the bus. The little girl hesitated, last in line, a little bit scared and had to get one more hug from daddy. Finally, she stepped on to the bus and as she passed by the bus driver she heard him say, "What an UGLY little girl!" Some words kill. reach ***** Edit---> Biggles, somehow (?!?) this got left off of my last post. QUOTE Anyway all I can think to say is that my love goes out to all of you... Thank you for your warm embrace and consider it returned. *hugs* Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 10:26 AM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 08:40 AM) I think you're right in that we seem to attract to ourselves, or purposefully choose without even being aware of the fact, the men who are like that father, or that one who failed us. We seem to have this deep-seated need to right the situation. Cerise, Biggles... thanks. ________ reach, Starflier, Though I didn't have an abandoning and totally rejecting father, my dad was an intermittent practicing alcoholic who could sometimes stay sober enough to make some money for his family of six, but most often lay like a lox with the wine bottles building up under his bed. When he was sober he was a brilliant, funny, colorful, engaging and engaged man (think: the father in "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn"), but most of the time he was merely an additional burden to my mother, who struggled under desperation to keep us all fed. Forget about 'clothed'. As I grew up and began to realize I was consistently choosing men who had strong aspects of my father, I believed I was trying to 'save' them as I was unable to 'save' my father. Then some years ago, I got to the truth beneath that truth: I was trying to 'save' my mother -- by proving she wasn't a fool for having invested her life's blood in such a man. Both my parents have been dead since the early 'seventies, but I keep discovering new elements of my relationship to them. For the 'wrongs' they visited on us kids, the concept of forgiveness doesn't even seem to pertain, because they had no idea what their other choices were. They were so terribly limited by their background and education. I don't think one 'forgives' inevitable acts; one understands them. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 10:38 AM reach, These sorts of hurtful words to children, made by total strangers whom the children have no way of addressing, are like poison darts that lodge, cellularly, in the child, and seem never to stop releasing the poison over the years. If I could find that bus driver today, I would absolutely run over the creep with my car. Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 11:47 AM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 08:40 AM) Starflier, What a rich post! Thank you! 1.I know the rejection of a father. Mine walked out when I was two years old and I never saw him until I went looking for him when I was 19. That's another story. I imagine I'll tell it here some time. I've forgiven him but touching that wound still makes me cry. You said it best already... "total rejection of me by my father." 2.I think you're right in that we seem to attract to ourselves, or purposefully choose without even being aware of the fact, the men who are like that father, or that one who failed us. We seem to have this deep-seated need to right the situation. I think that recognizing that can free us up to make more intelligent choices, based on reality and not fantasy. Some people won't change and some relationships will remain broken. 3.I don't think it has to be suppressed. I think it can be cast aside. I'm reminded of a Bible verse (I John 4:18) that says there is no fear in love; but perfect love drives out or casts out fear because fear has torment or punishment. I believe that in an atmosphere of nurturing love and unconditional acceptance, from another person or one's self, fear fades away, in time... 4. know that's not everyone's experience. It doesn't fit every situation. It fit some of mine. Grief had such a hold on me. I had to let it go because it was killing me. Erik mentioned anger. For me it was grief. I think of these as killing fields. I had to search for and then carefully dig up the claymore mines or they would have taken me out eventually. It was dig or die. Ty for the response, reach. 1. In my case my Catholic dad always resided at our home until the day he died of alcoholism at age 46. I was 20 & pregnant with my first of four at the time. He was the pillar of our small community & at church & the president of the Holy Name Society (Jesus' name). Everyone loved him. Mom included. For her the sun rose & set on his & my two brothers' heads. Still does even now for her at age 92 in a nursing home for dementia from a stroke. Sne still recognizes & is delighted to see my living brother. The other one died at age 15 & my dad drank himself to death in the four following years after he lost his firstborn son, his namesake. Same as saying "f...you" to the rest of us. But mom no longer even knows me & the last time I visited her she accused me of pretending to be her daughter. Even given her condition, it still hurts like hell. So tho I did love him he never aknowledged I existed or spoke to me at all except when threatening to punish me while motioning toward his belt. Which, my mom told us, could kill us dead if we said a word to protest or didn't change our behavior immediately. That was enough for me. I used to feel that belt hitting & killing me & had constant nightmares about it. No need for a fear of the boogie man. He was my father. Maybe I would have been better off had he left home & abandoned us all early on. I specifically recall at age 17, my dad returning from a trip to Hawaii with his brother. When he walked into the front door, everyone in the family went to greet him & hug him & welcoming him home. When it was my turn, I hugged him & said my welcoming thing. He stood there & didn't even put his arms around me or acknowledge I was even there. Like a stone cold mute statue he was. Nobody, not even my mom noticed it apparently. I was crushed beyond imagination. I hated him before & even worse then. He wasn't worth my even speaking to, even in childhood. Why waste my energy? Later after much personal therapy I sort of forgave him but apparently subconsiously I never really did. For he kept resurfacing in my life through other men, especially in my marriages. I dare not try marrying ever again or have a live-in relationship for I don't trust myself in male choices anymore. Even after 37 years of deconversion & all kinds of therapy. Will it ever end? I haven't a clue. 2. This is indeed the truth of it. I apparently chose my husbands for that very reason, tho unknowingly. After the first one & much theapy I thought I was cured. But no. Two husbands & many failed relationships later apparently I'm still not. They were great, loving, social, popular gentle, good, nice men at first. Then later in the marriage they gradually turned into monsters in one way or another. Am I the cause of that, albeit subconsciously? Sometimes I wonder. My first (17 year marriage) he became violent against our two sons, suicidal, alcoholic & was, after our divorce, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia after attempting suicide. The schizophrenia never surfaced early on but later did in spades tho I hadn't a clue what was wrong with him. My second (6 month marriage) was to a recovered, sober alcoholic but a nice, gentleman who treated me with the utmost respect & love. I should have known better tho. After he lost his job he walked out, got a bottle, & stayed drunk on the streets. I had to hunt him down to place divorce papers on his person. He was drunk at the time. Later after he got help in a state run detox place, we became good friends though I haven't seen or heard from him for years & years now. My third (since 1989, 11 years, now deceased from pneumonia, cancer & dementia as of April 2000) was a great family man with two sons from a previous marriage & on good friendly terms with his former wife as was I. He was a a professional man, a light social drinker, never drunk, social, popular, had many lifelong friends & my kids all loved him. It was more a marriage of convenience for me though, given I was disabled, homeless, jobless, carless & penniless at the time with kids to raise. He offered his help, I accepted. All was fine at first. In 1995 he became disabled from a job-related accident. I became his full time caregiver with all our kids now grown & gone from the nest. He was, a few years later diagnosed with dementia/Alzheimer's. By then he had already become a violent, destructive, uncooperative, verbally abusive raving maniac. I had to leave him on my doctor's order to preserve my own health & sanity after his two adult married sons, one a well known movie star-comedian, childless millionaire refused to help me with him for 5 years straight. Their wives didn't either. After I left for respite at my daughter's nearby home, the older son seized control of our joint bank accounts & assets, had his dad sign papers to remove my name from everything, locked me out of our home, filed restraining orders against me & had his dad file for divorce. A few days before I got the legal papers, I went to my residence to try to talk to my husband & get my belongings still in our home. The older weightlifter son was there, he broke my arm when I tried to enter the house & refused me access to my husband. Then for 2 years we had a long drawn out legal battle which resulted in their getting 75% of our joint assets & leaving me with $100k in debts they created for their dad in my absense. Which, as his widow, I became responsible to pay. After 5 divorce attorneys in succession & with the divorce unfinalized due to his death, I had to hire a criminal law attorney to retrieve the little I got & help me get rid of the $75k of those debts. Can I ever forgive them? I'm trying but it's very difficult. I'm glad I no longer live anywhere near them so I don't have to deal with them ever again. As for my late husband, of course he's forgiven. He was mentally ill & couldn't help it. Not his fault. May he rest in peace. 3. This is what I do. Cast it aside & get on with my life as I have much to do & cannot afford any time for wallowing. I'm a survivor, always have been. But I have long way to go, it seems, in the forgiveness process & apparently haven't yet experienced the "love" you mentioned from others or myself. Nor can I trust another man completely again no matter how nice they are at first. One never knows. Anyway, this a great place to discuss such issues. Glad you started this thread. Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 11:55 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 19 2004, 10:26 AM) I don't think one 'forgives' inevitable acts; one understands them. Thanx for this & your posts too, Pitchu. "Understanding" is the way I describe where I'm at. It's the best I can do. But tho it may not be total forgiveness with all the love felt for our transgressors, it's better than vengence I'd say. Tho I have to say I have a great imagination I often entertain about what I'd like to do to them. I don't like to dwell on that tho as it doesn't add anything to my need for self-comfort & personal love or peace & contentment. Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 12:14 PM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 19 2004, 11:55 AM) QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 19 2004, 10:26 AM) I don't think one 'forgives' inevitable acts; one understands them. Thanx for this & your posts too, Pitchu. "Understanding" is the way I describe where I'm at. It's the best I can do. But tho it may not be total forgiveness with all the love felt for our transgressors, it's better than vengence I'd say. Tho I have to say I have a great imagination I often entertain about what I'd like to do to them. I don't like to dwell on that tho as it doesn't add anything to my need for self-comfort & personal love or peace & contentment. I couldn't agree more with you two. That's one of the reasons I named the thread, "Forgiveness, Letting go." Some things may be forgiven. Others? Hopefully we come to a place of a little understanding at least and then, let it go. I'm visualizing a helium balloon rising. Thanks to you fine ladies for giving so much of your self here. Starflier, I'm going to come back and reply to your other post. Too many tears for one woman... Posted by: MalaInSe Feb 19 2004, 12:19 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 08:40 AM) I know the rejection of a father. Mine walked out when I was two years old and I never saw him until I went looking for him when I was 19. That's another story. I imagine I'll tell it here some time. I've forgiven him but touching that wound still makes me cry. You said it best already... "total rejection of me by my father." I was three. I have still not seen him in person since, though I talked to him briefly when I was in my teens, on the phone. I didn't really want to. I felt I already had enough to deal with as a teenager. Since my baby was born he's been e-mailing me. I've kept in sporadic touch with my half sister, whom I have also never met in person. She contacted me when she graduated from high school, and I never really felt any reason to exclude her from my life. She is a nice enough person. Anyway, I have not responded to any of my father's e-mails. I've been feeling this sense of resentment, that I couldn't define. I don't really feel anything negative toward the guy, except in some sort of vague way-- a general lack of respect for a guy who could walk away from two children and not look back until one of them (my brother) contacted him as a teenager. He was also abusive toward my mother. There was a time when I had anger, but I don't think I do now. I've done fine. I finally realized why I am so bothered by his contact. My mother tells me that I should forgive him and talk to him, and his emails continue. I resent the implication that I am doing something wrong by not talking to him. The thing is, I just don't really care what he does. I've now recognized, as a parent myself, that it's not a matter of forgiveness. You have to decide to be a parent early to your child. You can't come in when the child is 36 and still be a parent. The moment has passed. Being a parent is a matter of "is" not "should be" or "could or should have been." We can't go back now and make that relationship. He's simply not my parent, and that is a decision that he made. To pretend that the decision is now somehow mine, is ridiculous. I got another email from him yesterday saying that his mother died. My mother is upset that I am not upset. Hello! Knew her for about a week when I was three. I'd rather be upset about the tragedies in the lives of the people I know, than waste tears on someone I don't know. I'm sorry she died, but I just don't feel anything about it personally. Renee Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM For my beloved friends... Albatross or Tombstone My father was a musician, a professional composer, pianist and a "backslidden" Mormon; he walked out on us when I was two. The week after he left, my mom found out she was pregnant with his child. He never wanted to be a father, didn't want to be tied down to all that "family stuff." Because he never sent a single dollar towards our support I ended up missing out on piano lessons. I'm not bitter about this now but it was a bitter pill, a tragic loss to me for many years. That, along with his rejection brought me much grief. Somehow, I needed to part with this albatross. Time went by and I forgave him and I went looking for him. He had always been close by, just forty-five minutes away, through San Francisco. We met a few times and it was sweet. Unfortunately, however, he hadn't changed so he still wasn't into the family thing. You might say he left again. His choice. His loss. He missed out on knowing me. I was almost 20, when for the first and last time, my father played the piano for me. Some things you can't go back in time and get. Sand, like time, always slips away. As years went by I was given an opportunity to help a friend in dire straits who had nothing left to sell but a brand new baby grand piano. I bought my friend's piano, started lessons and diligently practiced, sometimes 40 hours a week. It was not meant to be. Too much time had slipped away. I can't begin to measure the grief out for you to see it. I believe God saw me through. Since we were a military family, this purchase resulted in me lugging this baby grand from coast to coast like a giant albatross or "dead" tombstone. Everyone in the family could play a little but no one could play well. This ivory-colored beauty looked wonderful wherever we placed it but it never seemed to belong in our home. It took up too much space. How could we roll away this stone? Last September, a local moving company showed up at my door. I know this little company pretty well because they've moved my piano three times in this town. Always nice to see this group; they come as a team of five because this piano is a very heavy one. Within 35 minutes, the truck pulled away and then I saw it; somehow, I had literally rolled away that stone. I have a lovely friend whose name is Jamie. She sings and plays beautifully. She often works for hire as she performs passionately with everything she's got. Churches, weddings, you name it. All she ever wanted was a piano and now she's got one. There were tears in both homes that day, joy or bittersweet. The good news is that Jamie only lives 20 minutes from me. I don�t have to go looking for her and there is nothing to try to forgive. Best of all, as long as she is alive she will always play the piano for me. My soul still sings; no one will ever get my song from me. ~ reach Posted by: Loren Feb 19 2004, 02:48 PM God, what a wrenching thread. There is a special place in one of the many worlds within me. It's an octagonal house on heavy pillars with a wraparound deck. My parents and I built it over the years at Yachats, OR. Here's the key. You are welcome to retreat there whenever you need to. The house is on a hill with a forty-five degree slope. From the driveway, you look down on the roof. You descend a stairway to get to the house. The front deck is twenty-five feet off the ground and looks out into the tree tops, through which can be seen the Pacific ocean. The house is set in thick, mossy, verdant semi-temperate rainforest. Salmonberry, moss, ferns, alders, foxglove and elderberry grow so thickly around the house that it's impossible to see very far into the greenness on either side. It's difficult to see the house from the highway. Birdsong washes lightly over you like a small stream chattering brightly over rocks. The three front walls are mostly glass. In the center of the house is a burnt orange metal fireplace with a fourteen foot flue. It sits on a raised hearth of black slate. Inside, at each of the eight roof corners a four by twelve beam ascends to the apex with an additional four by twelve midway between. They draw your eyes up to the center where the flue exits. The beams are stained dark brown, with the grain plainly visible. The ceiling is tongue and groove cedar decking which has been stained with a white stain which was then wiped off before drying, so it's a very subdued white that shows the grain clearly. The walls are unstained real wood paneling. The roof is cedar shake. Each piece of shake makes a different tone when struck by raindrops. All the colors are warm earth tones with bare wood predominating. There is no T.V. Instead, there is a glorious sunset. In the summer dusk, you sit on the wide front deck and listen to the surf as you watch bats do aerial ballet against the fading light of sunset. At night, you can hear the surf pounding on the twisted volcanic rocks of the shore. If you're still, you can feel it through the pillars which support the house. Very little artificial light from elsewhere reaches the house. You see the stars clearly. Relax. Inside, you listen to the fire snap and pop. The room is lit by a play of warm flickering light and shadow. Feel the ocean, older than old, in your bones as it buffets the rocky coast. Relax. There is nothing here that needs to be done. There are no wrongs here that need to be addressed. All that is elsewhere. As you watch the fire and feel the pounding of the surf, you reflect on the fact that you have sea water coursing in your veins. You realize that your very tears are sea water. You feel relaxed and content. Feel the muffled booming of the sea and know that this surging and ebbing, pounding and withdrawl is a rhythm which is well understood in the ancient wisdom of your own DNA. Heal. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 03:09 PM Loren, Now which one of these is the front door key? (Just your description slowed my heartbeat.) Posted by: MalaInSe Feb 19 2004, 03:15 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM) The good news is that Jamie only lives 20 minutes from me. I don�t have to go looking for her and there is nothing to try to forgive. Best of all, as long as she is alive she will always play the piano for me. Lovely, reach. And thanks, Loren, for the retreat. Ren Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 03:42 PM I'm with them. Some others will be arriving a little later. Loren, you amaze me. Thank you. Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 19 2004, 03:46 PM Firstly, I want commend the strength of character of anyone who is able to bounce back and resume a normal life after experiencing the kind of violence Reach described. The older I get the more I have found how common (especially for women) this kind of violence is in people�s lives. I am thankful that I have never had to endure any kind of serious physical violence against me. (I think the motives behind rape would make another interesting thread) Even though I was the one who requested that Reach start this topic, I am a bit timid about entering it myself. I made reference in a previous post to people who had wronged me in my life and how I was able to forgive those people. For you to understand the whole process of why I forgave these people, it will be necessary for me to reveal something I have done that I needed forgiveness for; thus my apprehension. I met my first partner in 1979 at the age of 19. My partner was two years my senior. We were both young gay men from a conservative part of Southern California and within two months of meeting decided to move in together and live in San Francisco. Things went okay for the first three years, but then we moved to a new apartment building atop Twin Peaks. It was filled young gay men into the �party� scene so prevalent in San Francisco during the early 80�s. I was introduced to every drug imaginable but found my favorite in cocaine. Within weeks my small savings was gone and I was irritated that I had to hide my drug use from my partner. I made an excuse to split up and got my own apartment so I could use whenever I wanted. There was only one problem; cocaine costs a lot! I was working as a teller at a bank downtown and I began to see ways to �supplement� my income. Whenever a customer would bring up a deposit slip to my window with several checks to deposit, I was required to add them up to see if the deposit slip was correctly filled out. Let�s say you brought me a deposit slip that said the total of the checks was $920. When I added them up, it came to $980. Instead of correcting the deposit slip, I would take the difference. You would be surprised how often this happens. Over the next five years I estimate that I ripped off customers for about $6000. None of the customers ever found out and I was never caught. Now this is bad enough but what I did next is what really sent my life into a tailspin. One day the teller next to me (Jose) accidentally dropped $500 from his drawer and did not notice it. I was Jose�s direct supervisor at the time, and thought to myself that I would teach him a lesson. I picked up the money and planned on keeping it until he balanced out at the end of the day. I was then going to give him a big scare and return the money; except it did not turn out that way. All day long I imagined how much cocaine I could buy with that money. By the end of the day I had rationalized (addicts are good at this) reasons for keeping it. His drawer was short $500 at the end of the day. My boss asked me if I thought Jose had stolen the money. I told him that I did not think Jose would do such a thing. I told him that I thought Jose just made a mistake with a customer. My boss looked me right in the eye and told me �Dennis, I think Jose did steal the money and I would be willing to stake my life on it!� I felt two inches tall. I kept telling my boss that Jose would never do anything like that, but it did no good; Jose was fired. That moment in my life was a dividing line for me. I could have confessed and saved Jose�s job, but I did not. I can remember a dark feeling came over me. It was as if I was now a different person from who had been before. I was now an official drug addict and nothing would stand in the way of me and what I wanted. The only way to survive now was to turn off my moral compass. The only way I can describe it is a �spiritual� bottom. After three years on my own, I decided to move back in with my partner. We had always remained close and I thought living with him would be a way for me to save money and try to control my drug use. It worked out well. I stopped using and actually began to save some money. He was now 29 years old and a licensed pilot for general aircraft and helicopters. In 1987 he was renewing his instructor�s license for helicopters when there was some kind of malfunction and he plummeted 1000 feet to his death. It is important for me to back up a bit here and tell you that my partner�s parents divorced when he was 4 years old. He had not seen his father since he was 12 years old and his mother and stepfather had disowned him when he came out as gay eight years before. In addition we had never cemented our relationship with any legal documents. When he died his parents were so sweet to me and took care of everything. I never realized that behind the scenes they had initiated legal action against the helicopter company. To make a very long story short, I was left holding the bag. They seized his bank account where I kept $3000 of my money for a higher interest rate and each parent received $180,000 from the legal award. I was left with the debt on our car! I sent letter after letter to each of my partner�s parents requesting that only my $3000 should be returned to me. I enclose documents that proved it was my funds they had seized. What was their response? They sent me an empty wallet for Christmas! I contacted an attorney and it was quickly apparent that I had no legal leg to stand on. I was just his roommate in the eyes of the law. My new found sobriety was over. I wrapped myself up in hate and self-pity and started stealing and using again. My need for cash was greater than ever so I was not as careful. Eventually I was caught by the bank I was working for and fired. Thank goodness the bank did not take legal action. I knew I needed help and started attending Narcotics Anonymous meetings. Although I did not practice all the twelve steps, I was sure that �making amends� was essential to my recovery. I paid the bank back all the money I had stolen from them directly, but there was no way to find out the individual names and dates of the people from whom I had stolen over the years. I wanted more than anything to contact Jose, but his last name was LOPEZ. There are probably over a hundred Jose Lopez�s in San Francisco and I was not able to locate him. So here I was, wanting to make amends and no way to do it. I desperately wanted to forgive myself for the things I had done, but at the same time I was still holding on to the anger I felt for my partner�s parents. Both seemed to be linked somehow and one could not be resolved without the other. After a great deal of self-reflection the course of action was obvious. How were the actions taken by my partner�s parents any different from what I had done? At least from my perspective, we had all hurt someone for financial gain. I was no better than them. If they were not worthy of forgiveness, than neither was I. It was a difficult letter I wrote to my partner�s mother that night. I expressed my sorrow for the loss of her son and told her that even though I was disappointed in her actions, I did forgive her. Whether or not she felt she needed forgiveness was beside the point. I needed to forgive her to get on with my life. I immediately felt 100 lbs lighter! That letter was my ticket to new life. I forgave myself and it felt right. I realize that my story regarding forgiveness is quite different from the one Reach described. Whether or not I could forgive someone who held a gun to my head is quite another matter and I don�t want to presume that my actions would necessarily be appropriate in such a case. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 04:20 PM God, IBF, what an amazing and shocking story. And how brave of you to tell it. I guess there are people who've never been larcenous or selfishly cruel in some other way. I'm not one of them. And I'm not always honest with myself about the particulars. Thank you for setting a standard for that kind of honesty. Posted by: Loren Feb 19 2004, 05:17 PM Wow. I have no words to describe how moved and honored I am to read all that everyone has written in this thread. And IBF? It's a privilage to know you.

Posted by: Reach Jan 18 2005, 08:47 AM

Reposting part of this missing thread... Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 06:44 PM IBF: Because you asked... Comment: This is a loose rewrite of a story that was designed for an international audience. I have intentionally written it so that ESL (English as a Second Language) students and the less educated could understand it with ease. The Seagulls Had No Choice It should never have happened. I was only 22 years old. I had a beautiful young man in my life with plans to marry the following year. But it did happen and it wasn't my fault. The man was a stranger. He was a policeman in the San Francisco Bay Area. He raped me. I was a full time student at Mills College, in Oakland. To help with college expenses I worked as a waitress at a very busy coffee house that was open 24 hours. The prices were low and the coffee was fresh. It was a service-with-a-smile kind of place, comfortable and cozy. A lot of local policemen ate there. They thought of the place as their home away from home. At the time, I was on the weak side, recovering from pneumonia which almost took my life. Some of the officers became friends of mine. It happened that two of them had saved their money for several years and were finally able to pool their resources and buy a used boat. As they prepared their boat for its maiden fishing voyage, excitement ran high. I was invited, along with eight to ten of their friends, co-workers, wives and girlfriends for this first excursion off the coast of California. I was thrilled. I had never put a pole in the water so the idea of deep-sea fishing was the ultimate fishing adventure as far as I knew. For some reason, that day, my car was in the body shop being repaired. I simply needed a ride. My friends who owned the boat suggested I team up with one of the others they had invited. Harry lived near me, in the same city, some 25 miles away from where the boat was birthed. I didn’t know this man but my friends did. Like the others, he was a policeman. I was taught that men in uniform could be trusted. I loved the military men and firemen I knew. It all seemed safe enough. It turned out otherwise. Harry and I arrived at the pier about 15 minutes before the others. I would soon regret these 15 minutes. Our conversation during the commute was pleasant and we were excited about fishing. You could even say we 'hit it off' well as new friends. I never saw what was coming once we got onboard… even though I tried to fight him off I finally gave in to forcible rape. When he was finished, as he zipped up his pants, he shocked me even further with these words, "Oh, by the way, I'm not going fishing today. I have to be in court at two o’clock." With that, he disembarked and walked away. It wasn't a problem that I was 25 miles from home but I was left emotionally stranded, locked in a world of grief and shame and premeditated rape. I was numb with shock. The others arrived. I couldn't focus. Something like a robot, I did catch some nice fish that day but I was not good company. I just wanted to get home and shower. I put on the best acting face I could and tried to be cheerful but I really needed to get home and process through what had just been done to me. It was the longest day in my life. I felt unwashed. Unclean. To make matters worse, sometime in the afternoon, Larry, Harry's partner who had come along, got bored with fishing and decided on using a couple of seagulls for target practice. He was curious and wondered how long it takes seagulls to drown if you shoot up one of their wings. Two shots were fired and there lay two more victims, drowning in the ocean. The seagulls had no choice. Everyone on board was outraged at Larry. On the practical side, the police department required the filing of a lengthy report for each bullet fired. More shocking was the senseless cruelty. Would this day never end? The day would come to a close and I would make my way home to the shower and my thoughts. I never told any of my policemen friends what 'one of their own' had done to me. I understand why rape most often goes unreported. In my case, who would believe a cute, young, coed waitress vs. an attractive, 'respectable' officer of the law? Some people have been taught that waitresses might be a little on the trashy side, a little loose in the morals department. To top it off, Harry was also in his twenties, cute, charming, adorably innocent looking on the outside. Policemen are the good guys. There was no way I could win in court and I had everything to lose by seeking vengeance. In the mental recesses of your mind, what do you do with rape? Where do you put the problems it creates in your soul? How do you go on and maintain loving relationships with your father, five brothers and the other men in your world when one of the men in that world has gone after you and stolen something from you that was not his to take? How does the issue of having been raped color your attitudes about men and God and the police force and life in general? Where do you go to cry? And when and how do you stop crying? Where do you find healing for your soul? Who can you talk to who can get inside with you and understand your pain? And where was God anyway and how could he allow this to happen? I don't fully understand but I have some ideas. The next week or two found me wandering through life rather numb to the world and traumatized by one man's rape and another's killing for pleasure. But numb as I was, I had already come to a most important realization. Something moved deep inside me and even though I had been victimized, I found myself empowered, by choice. I was given the gift of choice. I could choose to let these acts of violence color my attitudes and my relationships for the rest of my life or somehow, some way, I could walk away from the wreckage and leave it behind me, trusting that enough time would take care of the healing of my inner person. I believe I chose well. Today, I can answer those questions somewhat. I had to leave rape behind, like fish guts and foul, rotten things and driftwood on the beach. I had to embrace the grief and pain in my soul. I decided to not judge all the males in my life by the hate-filled violence of two of them. I found myself enabled to not allow the raping of my body effect my soul adversely. I chose to trust others. I chose to be transparent and honest and let God and time, if anything was salvageable, make something good out of my wretched experience. The Pacific Ocean is still my favorite place to be and the San Francisco Bay Area will always be what I call home. No one is getting my ocean out of me. I felt like I cried an ocean of tears but when the tears ran out, I surrendered the whole ugly thing and let it go. My tears helped thaw out a heart which was frozen in grief. I chose to not drown like the seagulls. As I perceived it, I didn't want to get sucked into a victim mentality, where my identity would be based on the crime against me. Somehow I emerged from this ordeal with the strength of steel. I moved on because I refused to allow this wretched violence any opportunity to further wound or destroy the healthy person I was meant to be. I held out hope that my future would be better than my past. Eventually, my path came to a fork in the road where I was faced with the dilemma of forgiveness. I rationalized that forgiveness was the only safe tack I could take. The way I saw it, choosing forgiveness would rescue me from bitterness. I believe that just like a normal child takes nine months in the womb to reach the full stage for birth, forgiveness takes time to grow but it is born of decision. Decision… the womb where forgiveness can be seeded, nurtured and brought to fruition. I found myself saying, "God! Forgive them for they're clueless." Forgiveness or bitterness… the bottom line, for me, was… that particular choice. I chose forgiveness for the guilty. Why? Because one day I knew I would need the same. And the choice to forgive was the key that unlocked the door of my prison of pain. I have learned that forgiveness is a wellspring from which I must draw regularly. Sometimes I must draw and drink for myself. At other times, I must draw a fresh cup and pass it to someone else. Forgiveness unleashed the power of restoration in my life. We all need some. In the end, Harry, Larry and I all need some forgiveness. So where was God and how could He allow this nightmare to take place? I believe God was watching and he saw everything. He didn’t miss a single detail. Other than bruises born of resistance, my physical body was left unscarred. A child did not ensue. He allowed this crime to be perpetrated against me. It was not his choice for me but the choice of a rapist. I also believe that from these ashes there has come forth something of beauty. What good has come from such horror? About four years ago, I sat down and made a list of names of all the people with whom I had shared this story. In every single case, they had approached me. First names only… Jules, Cindy, Bob, Marian, Rita, Steve… with each name flashed a face briefly across my mind and I remembered their stories. When I got to the fiftieth name I quit writing and I wept with gratitude. I had been privileged to encourage them, weep with them, hold them, love them and empathize with their pain and grief. I was able to walk across a bridge I understood to meet them where they were, on the other side in a pit of their despair. I never realized there had been so many of them until I made that list. Incest by family members, men raping men, men raping women, infants and toddlers and children abused and misused, gang rape of the mentally challenged… the list of crimes goes on. The seagulls had no choice but I had a choice. Forgiveness allowed good fruit to be born of my barren wasteland. I live in hope because despair is deadly. And no one will get my life from me. ***** I apologize for this rambling story. Graveyards are not often visited because only dead and decaying things are there. Nevertheless, it’s still painful to walk through them and find your own tombstone. ***** IBF, I’m honored to know you. I’m glad you recovered yourself and returned to the man of integrity that you always were. What doesn't kill us sure can make us strong. ***** Erik, I’m going to try and tell another story that might speak to where you’re at. much love, Reach Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 19 2004, 07:19 PM My hands have been cold since I started writing my story five hours ago. My head is aching and my stomach wants to expel what little dinner I could force down. Reach, your story has profoundly affected me. Pitchu, your words do bring comfort. Forgiveness is apparently essential to a healthful life, but reliving the events that lead to this realization is more painful than I thought it would be. I'm glad it's done, Thank you all for being here, it was very therapeutic........I never want to do it again. Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 07:38 PM IBF, I'm sorry for your reaction to all this. The truth is I am free here, whole and healthy. I wrote my story four years ago. Reading it hurts even less today. I simply posted it here, because you asked, and with the hope that another might find something of help. Celebrate with me that I broke free from that which would have imprisoned me. phew.gif Besides, it's not every day that we get to use Loren's house. Let's enjoy the warmth of the fire and the view from here. Our Pacific Ocean. pitchu said... QUOTE If I could find that bus driver today, I would absolutely run over the creep with my car. I guess it wouldn't be very nice of me to say, "Go for it!" Tempting though, isn't it? Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 09:22 PM QUOTE (MalaInSe @ Feb 19 2004, 12:19 PM) [ I got another email from him yesterday saying that his mother died. My mother is upset that I am not upset. Hello! Knew her for about a week when I was three. I'd rather be upset about the tragedies in the lives of the people I know, than waste tears on someone I don't know. I'm sorry she died, but I just don't feel anything about it personally. Renee Just my 2 cents but I'm getting that your mom is dumping some of her own feelings on to you. I see no reason at all that you should accept her stuff & own it as your own. Not a good idea. Good that you're not, methinks. I also agree your dad was never your parent. You owe him nothing at all. Not even an email. He's no more than a stranger like any other strange man who'd email you, IMO. That's the way I'd feel anyway. Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 09:37 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM) [i]For my beloved friends... Albatross or Tombstone This is incredile, Pitchu!! Wonderfully written. So much compassion. I can relate as I'm a pianst too with no piano. My dad totally ignored my piano playing as if he never heard it. Posted by: chefranden Feb 19 2004, 09:40 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:11 AM) Me too Chef. My favorite brother came back from Vietnam but he never made it in to a port of safety. He was back for about six months and I came home to find him drunk. The rest of the family was out on a vacation. He and I couldn't (and didn't necessarily want to) leave our jobs for a family outing. I'd never seen my brother sauced before and he was sobbing, "I killed a man! I killed a man!" All I knew to do was sit on the floor and hold him in my arms. He was on a PT boat in the Mekong Delta. My brother noticed a man in the water swimming up to the boat with a grenade in his teeth. He pointed it out to the Officer in Charge (OIC) and the OIC said, "Shoot him." Much argument ensued, killing words and rage and fear. In the end my brother shot and killed. When he saw the floating enemy, just as death took its toll, he saw a 15 year old boy. He's never gotten over this. I've loved my brother my whole life but all we ever do when we talk about Vietnam is cry. Is there any help out there for him? Returning to SFO (San Francisco International Airport) from Vietnam, the first American to run into him spit in his face. He's never been able to wash that spittle away. I recomend that he be tested by the VA for PTSD if he hasn't yet. And to go to a Vet Center. I've been seeing a counselor there every other week or so for twelve years. It gives a person a place to talk about things you wouldn't talk about elsewhere. I also went to a group meeting for years, made some good friends, and found out I wasn't alone. The VA is kind of slow because they are way underfunded, but your bro could get medical treatment for it, if he isn't. And in all probability he could get a nice disablity check too. The country owes it to him! Speaking of forgiveness, the hardest person to forgive is your ownself, I hope he can come to that someday. chef Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 09:41 PM QUOTE (Loren @ Feb 19 2004, 02:48 PM) God, what a wrenching thread. There is a special place in one of the many worlds within me. It's an octagonal house on heavy pillars with a wraparound deck Absolutely gorgeous, Loren. I was THERE!!! Oh how I love the ocean. Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 10:04 PM QUOTE (I BROKE FREE @ Feb 19 2004, 03:46 PM) For you to understand the whole process of why I forgave these people, it will be necessary for me to reveal something I have done that I needed forgiveness for; thus my apprehension. How heart wrenching, IBF. I'm so glad to read you got over your addiction & tried to make amends & all. That's always so heart warming to hear stories like yours. I have an addictive personality also from my dad, so have been to all the 12 step programs years ago. They worked because I worked them. They were wonderful therapy for me at the time & free too. I even got rides to the meetings when I was carless. They gave me a lot of confidence in myself as I learned there, to speak in front of a group without my legs turning to jelly & shaking like a barren willow branch in the wind as I always did, even in school, until later in my adult years. I have a beloved gay brother too with a bad gambling addiction. He went through$l/2 million of his & our mother's money in a year recently. He's struggling to survive now but doing it, thankfully. I wish he'd go to GA though. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 10:09 PM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 19 2004, 08:37 PM) QUOTE (Reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM) [i]For my beloved friends... Albatross or Tombstone This is incredile, Pitchu!! Wonderfully written. I'd love to take credit for the wonderful writing, Starflier, but reach certainly seems to manage that on her own. Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 10:22 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 19 2004, 09:09 PM) QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 19 2004, 08:37 PM) QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM) [i]For my beloved friends... Albatross or Tombstone This is incredile, Pitchu!! Wonderfully written. I'd love to take credit for the wonderful writing, Starflier, but reach certainly seems to manage that on her own. Oh gosh, Pitchu, sorry. I kinda lost in a fog there I guess. Posted by: Cerise Feb 19 2004, 10:27 PM I'm not sure if reading about everyone else's bravery in telling their stories is making me brave or reckless. Actually I don't know if I'll post this at all but it's nice to write it down. It's nice to get things out of your mind and on paper...well, screen I guess in this case. The first was when I was six. I had a favorite cousin who shall remain nameless. Let's just call him "B". I had a brand spanking new baby brother toddling around at this point in my life and like all previously spoiled rotten only children, I was feeling neglected. No one wanted to pay attention to me or play with me. Except B. B was seventeen and loved to keep me company and we'd play games together in the basement where B's room was every time I came over to my aunt's house. We'd play games like "blue monster" which was when B would take the blue quilt off his bed, put it over his head and chase after me, pretending to "eat me" when he finally caught me. The blanket would then be put over my head while he tickled me and...well, other things. All I remember clearly of that was that it was hot under the blanket and I couldn't breathe very well but I liked the attention so... And then one day I came across B doing something, well something that teenaged boys do quite frequently I'm sure when they lie in their beds. And instead of telling me to go away he told me to come in and shut the door. And I did. When my parents found out they were furious. My aunt and uncle, embarrassed. B went to juvie for a while and then came home. I never saw him again and the whole thing was never brought up. Of course, that doesn't keep my aunt and grandmother from mentioning him or keeping pictures of him around the house. I've seen his wedding photos. He looks very happy. He has a daughter now. She'd be about six years old. God, I hope she's safe. The second was during Bible camp, when I was fourteen. I was Pastor's favorite. He mumbled things while he was raping me. I've often wondered if they were prayers. I remember when I decided to leave, when I told him I didn't believe in God anymore, he told me I was possessed with an evil spirit and that I had made him do those things to me. He told me I'd burn in hell. I told him if he was going to be in Heaven then I'd rather go to hell then spend an eternity with him. I think he told the rest of the camp I was a slut. I know there were other girls, but no one breaks the silence. The third was three years ago, April, Paris in springtime and Good Friday. I had been privileged enough to join a study abroad program with my school. We were to tour Europe and learn history, language, ancient civilizations, and literature. I had been shopping for a new outfit. We were all going to be at the Eiffel Tower that night, our last night in Paris before we moved on to Germany. I had gone by myself, being made bold by so many days touring the streets. I thought I would be perfectly safe without an escort. I was only three blocks from the hotel. The shop was small, crammed full of the "trendy" styles that were popular to girls my age. Camouflaged skirts and tight tube tops. Things like that. I had flirted a bit with the twenty year old shopkeeper who could speak english fluently. We exchanged names, I told him about my school, that sort of thing. Then I asked to try on a skirt and top. There was only a small curtained off area for a changeroom. Half-way through changing, I still had my underwear on but nothing else, he just came in and pinned me against the wall. I was so shocked, I simply couldn't believe it was happening. I think, as an automatic response, my body froze and I retreated into my mind. I couldn't feel anything, it was like some other person was being raped, some one else's body, not mine. I remember thinking desperately about bread and how I needed to buy some and where could I get the cheapest, freshest kind before lunch. When it was over he left me on the floor. He had wiped his hands on the curtain. I pulled on my clothes, the skirt and top I had been trying on, and walk out of the changeroom to where he was standing, cool as could be, behind the counter. He motioned me to the mirror and I followed. There were other people in the store, do you know? I couldn't scream. I couldn't say anything. It was like I wasn't there. I told him I'd buy the outfit. I thought of nothing but going home. I told him I'd wear the outfit out of the store. No way was I getting into that curtained area again. He gave me a discount. A fucking discount. 20 dollars. I was a twenty dollar whore. When I got back to the hotel I took a shower. A scalding shower. I scrubbed myself raw and there was blood in my panties and in the bathtub and I couldn't figure out why. I kept counting days in my head to see if maybe my period came early. And I went to the Eiffle Tower. And then I told one of the female teachers and she told all the male teachers and they looked at me, so disgusted, and asked me why I did such a dumb thing like going out on my own. So I told them it was okay and that he didn't really hurt me and that I was fine. The fourth was two years ago, the summer I started working at a local themepark as a lifeguard. I was attacked in the ladies' washrooms by a guest. I was able to fight him off and he ran away. Later, the police told me that they had video cameras in the washrooms that told them nothing had happened. After eight hours of questioning I told them I had made the whole thing up so could I please please be let out of the room and be allowed to go home? I thought I must have been going mad because it had felt so real but if they had video proof... The next day my father called the themepark security guards to see the tapes himself. The security guard said, and I quote "we don't have cameras in the washrooms here. Who told you that?" Right after the last attack I found an on-line support group. It's kept me from the edge quite a few times. Understanding, just...people who have been there, being able to tell someone and knowing they won't judge or look at you with disgust, that helps a whole lot. I think the real thing that's kept me going is, this might sound silly, I have a picture in my mind of future daughters, girls who are looking at me to build a safer future for them. And I know that I can't give up and leave this world, or just stop caring, because they're counting on me, these future children of mine. I had to give up some things. The trust aspect I'm still working on. But I figure it's okay to give myself time, that it's okay to not be absolutely okay all the time. You break down, you cry, you scream, you have days where you can't go outside, and then you have better days when you laugh and talk and love. About the time I started to cry and scream and then had the strength to love and laugh on the same day, that's when I started to heal. I don't know if that was a 'letting go' as much as it was a 'bringing back'. I had things that belonged to me taken away. I was bringing them back. As for forgiveness? Maybe, in the future that's possible. I'm not going to waste my time worrying about it now, I have future daughters to worry about instead. Well, guess I'm posting this after all. Here goes.... Posted by: Starflier Feb 19 2004, 10:37 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 05:44 PM) [i]The Seagulls Had No Choice Very traumatic indeed, Reach. It's wonderful you got past it okay. Rape is ugly to get over at any age. I worked in my new spiritualist non-denominational international church headquarters' office after my first divorce with my kids now grown & gone. The church president was my boss, an elder woman. She had a son my age she wanted me to meet as she stated she wanted him to get married again. He had been married but later divorced when his wife had a car accident in which two of their 3 kids died. I guess they couldn't get the marriage back together again after that. I met the son, a handsome, nice fellow & we dated a while, nothing serious though. On our later date he raped me. Date rape they call it I later learned. I never told a soul about it & never had anything more to do with him. But continued working at my church office job. About a year later I met & married my second husband & one day he came to the church office with me & I introduced him to my boss, the president. A week later at a church function in front of everyone, she walked up to me & fired me saying my new husband could take care of me now. Was I ever shocked & embarrassed! That was it!! Naturally I've seen & spoken to my rapist since then accidentally at the store I shopped at. I acted as if nothing at all happened. I guess he assume we're still friends. I feel now the president did me favor by firing me. I got a much better paying job later. Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 10:42 PM Cerise. Cerise. What strength you must have. Molested and raped and raped and raped and tricked and made to think you're crazy and cursed at and condemned and told you're the disgusting one. I don't know what you look like, but I know you're beautiful. And your daughters will know that, too. Love to you, Ellen Posted by: pitchu Feb 19 2004, 11:05 PM Chef, If this is too personal or painful, tell me to fuck off (of which I know you're fully capable), but I wonder what you have decided about yourself -- in terms of guilt, regret, responsibility -- those plagues. Posted by: Reach Feb 19 2004, 11:05 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 19 2004, 09:09 PM) QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 19 2004, 08:37 PM) QUOTE (reach @ Feb 19 2004, 01:19 PM) For my beloved friends... Albatross or Tombstone This is incredile, Pitchu!! Wonderfully written. I'd love to take credit for the wonderful writing, Starflier, but reach certainly seems to manage that on her own. Thank you sisters. It just hit me, something I left out of my post; I said this, "My father was a musician, a professional composer, pianist..." I'm not bragging here. This underscores the grief that the loss of a father, his music and my piano lessons that should have been, could bring to my life. The truth is he was the pianist for Tony Bennett for ten years, at the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco. Evidence is on file. Go check it out. Bennett got 'promoted' to Las Vegas and my father refused to leave San Francisco. He went on to 'bigger and brighter' things. Isn't it sad that he never considered going anywhere with me? But like I said, My soul still sings; no one will ever get my song from me. ~ Reach ***** I got tied up on some IMs and now I see that Cerise, Starflier and pitchu have all posted again. I'm out of here to read the previous three posts. Posted by: Zoe Grace Feb 20 2004, 03:06 AM you aren't lesser if you choose not to forgive. There are some things which it is ludicrous to expect others to forgive. At the same time, forgiving doesn't mean that what was done to you was ok, or that you are just all happy happy about the person that did it. all it means is that you have decided to refuse to allow that person to continue to harm you. If you hate someone who has harmed you forever, it in no way affects that person, get revenge if you must, become an activist and fight the cause if you must, but don't just let hate and anger stew in you with no outlet to truly release it, because all it does is allow that person to continue harming you. Usually forgiveness isn't something you can easily "choose" to do, because you can't really help feeling what you are feeling...but if you go through the process completely and don't try to suppress anything, then eventually there will come a time where you just naturally let it go. Not to say that it all of a sudden becomes "ok" but you no longer have the energy to maintain all the hate and anger. You find you need that energy for other areas of your life and holding onto it just makes you tired and feel horrible. Everyone knows when the time to let go of something is. It doesn't mean you let go of the fight it just means you let go of the anger for the individual event. while the pain may still be in the present the event itself is in the past. Whoever harms you WANTS you to forever be in pain. It doesn't harm them if you hate them forever, just you. Those who harm you want you to spend every day of your life stewing and in pain over what they did to you. Don't give them that kind of power over you. Defy them and be happy. defy them and rise above. defy them and forgive...not for them, because they don't deserve it...do it as a completely selfish act for you. Posted by: HeathenM0M Feb 20 2004, 07:36 AM You all are so brave to share such intensely personal stories and I sincerely hope that you all are able to heal and move on with your lives. I've come back to this topic 3x now and haven't been able to write until now ... it's just so overwhelming. Forgiveness, was a huge issue for me when I was a Christian. I felt like a failure because I couldn't forgive my father and I knew that if I didn't forgive him, then God wouldn't forgive me. It was a vicious cycle of guilt, and it didn't help that I was never really sure what forgiving required of me. Did it mean I had to have a relationship with him like people were implying? Or just that I didn't hold him responsible for what he did to me? I truly had no idea and it ate away at me constantly. The man was an alcoholic who was physically, verbally and sexually abusive to me. The parts he will admit to, he blames solely on Vietnam (no offense to Chef or any other Vet here, I know you aren't all like that). It was only after leaving Christianity last year that I felt strong enough to tell someone about the sexual abuse for the first time. Not only has my father vehemently denied it, he has convinced many of our family members (on his side) that he's actually the victim here. Because I waited until I was 30 years old to talk about it, they believe him when he says I made it all up. I waited because I was afraid he'd come after me if I told anyone and because I thought God wanted me to forgive him and move on, so I've been trying to do that. I never imagined that my father would deny it. And now that my father heard that I'm an Atheist, I hear that he's now blaming my lies on the fact that I'm good friends with Satan. Wendywhatever.gif He's seriously f'd up! Truthfully, when my faith in God started to fall away, so did my torturous need to forgive my father for what he did to me. Now, I don't let my father upset me, I don't force myself to visit him, I just don't let him into my life period. He no longer has any sort of power over me. Have I forgiven him? I don't know, but I certainly feel free of the whole thing. Posted by: MalaInSe Feb 20 2004, 12:05 PM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 19 2004, 08:22 PM) QUOTE (MalaInSe @ Feb 19 2004, 12:19 PM) [ I got another email from him yesterday saying that his mother died. My mother is upset that I am not upset. Hello! Knew her for about a week when I was three. I'd rather be upset about the tragedies in the lives of the people I know, than waste tears on someone I don't know. I'm sorry she died, but I just don't feel anything about it personally. Renee Just my 2 cents but I'm getting that your mom is dumping some of her own feelings on to you. I see no reason at all that you should accept her stuff & own it as your own. Not a good idea. Good that you're not, methinks. I also agree your dad was never your parent. You owe him nothing at all. Not even an email. He's no more than a stranger like any other strange man who'd email you, IMO. That's the way I'd feel anyway. You're absolutely correct about my mother. There was a time we were way too close, and she sometimes comes back to that when we spend too much time together. We have a really odd relationship. She's very critical of me, and very much in my "stuff." Its a struggle to keep separate. She did a lot of emotional damage to be before I went off to college. She called me a "whore" a number of times when I was a teen (I didn't lose my virginity until I was 20, and then to a man I was with for almost three years and thought I would marry). Once she took me to the doctor for a pregnancy test because I had a steady boyfriend and I had gained about ten pounds (we had not progressed to that point). What's weird is that I never gave her any reason to distrust me. I was a straight-A College-bound student. I was very religious. I attended two services every Sunday and two weekly bible studies. There's a lot of other crap. I selected a college out of town so I would have a reasonable excuse for moving out of the house. Now she lives on our property. She disapproved of my husband in the beginning, mostly because he encouraged me to stand up to her. Now she adores him. She has backed off somewhat because she feels that I have him to take care of me now, but she still accuses me of being forgetful because I don't immediately call him to pass on her messages to him. Whew, that just came spewing out. I send a quick email to my father saying I was sorry for his loss, and that is it. I am kind of tempted to tell him why I'm not so enthusiastic about the guy, but I probably won't. Renee Posted by: pitchu Feb 20 2004, 12:59 PM Renee, Whatever your complaints about your mother, some of which sounds to me like her over-compensation for an absent father, you know the difference betwen a parent who parented and a parent who was a sperm donor plus hangin' around for a bit. Imo, you're showing good sense. I'm sorry for your treatment by your father. Posted by: Reach Feb 20 2004, 02:17 PM To one of you, This is not addressed to someone who has posted in this thread but if you need to hear this, then take it to heart. When I mentioned the 'loaded gun' story (or the rape story) I never knew I was relating your history. I'm sorry for the pain that you live with because of this. Time will heal you and your nightmare will come to a close one day. When it does, you'll be able to help the next victim who suffers like we did or still do. And there's always a next victim. I'm sorry for your pain. Pitchu's term of 'sperm donor' is perfect here. As a pilot in his aircraft knows to do, when you're down pull up. Whatever it takes, pull up. We're here for you. That's what this site is all about. *great big hug* reach Posted by: pitchu Feb 20 2004, 05:14 PM How does one explain this phenomenon? How is it possible that (at least) 3 women on this site have had guns put to their heads in a forced sexual act? (This has also happened to my niece.) How is it that we don't hear about this? We hear about other sexual crimes, so what's going on? It's unlikely that we just happen to have a 'pocket' of such a thing, here. Do women not report this at a rate they report rape? Are we too relieved to have come out of it alive to ever mention it again (I thought I was the only one like this)? I don't understand it, and I find it very disturbing. Posted by: Starflier Feb 20 2004, 06:30 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 20 2004, 04:14 PM) How does one explain this phenomenon? How is it possible that (at least) 3 women on this site have had guns put to their heads in a forced sexual act? (This has also happened to my niece.) How is it that we don't hear about this? We hear about other sexual crimes, so what's going on? It's unlikely that we just happen to have a 'pocket' of such a thing, here. Do women not report this at a rate they report rape? Are we too relieved to have come out of it alive to ever mention it again (I thought I was the only one like this)? I don't understand it, and I find it very disturbing. A lot of it is explained in Anne Wilson Schaef's book "Women's Reality". It's a cultural thing which she calls "The White Male System". Which is also known as a patriarchal culture from godfather/son on down with women, children & Mother Earth/nature on the bottom. Think of a pyramid, which another female Episcopalian "priest", as she calls herself, Alla Bosarth-Campbell, describes in her book "WomanPriest". On the top of the pyramid is God (father/son). Further down the pyramid is "white males". Next down the line is "men of color", i.e. black men. Next further down near the bottom is "white women & children" & down further still "women of color & children". On the very bottom is "Mother Earth, Mother Nature in that order." Now go look on the back of a one dollar bill & notice the pyramid on the left in the circle. Notice the topmost part or capstone of the pyramid is separate from the rest of the pyramid as if "above" it in the air & unattached. That is the eternally separate sky Godfather & Son, Inc. Notice the bottom of the pyramid rests on Mother Earth. Notice the Eye of God in the separate capstone. Realize that "cap" in "cap"stone means "head". In the bible it states that Jesus (God/Christ) is the head (cap)of the church as the man is the head of (ahead/above) the woman. Realize that "church" means "we the people" as a church is not a building, it is the people, the church members. Now see that God/Christ/man has "power over" or heads the people 'under" him as the downard flow of power on down the pyramid to the bottom of it in this order downward: God (father/son)...white males....black males....white females/children...black females/children....Mother Nature.....Mother Earth. This lower part of the pyramid is "we the people" in descending order of our value in this white male church/state system. Now look at other higher valued paper money bills. There is a white male, usually a president (head/cap of state/church) on the front. On the back is generally a picture of the White House, Lincoln Memorial, Washington Memorial or other such government building with the words "In God We Trust" across the middle or top or elsewhere on the bill. This seems to imply that "God" is the white male on the bill & he, as godking, rules the church below him on the pyramid from his church headquarters, i.e....White House...etc. Now you have the white male system with women & our motherly natures & earthly bodies on the very bottom in the lowest positions of value with all men at the top of the heap. This represents our american patriarchal founding-ruling, reigning fathers' church/state system. So it's apparent to me & others who realize this, that we live in a culture where men are expected to dominate over women, children & mother earth. While women & children are expected to sublimate themselves to the men's wishes & decisions as there is no equality or egalitarianism in such a pyramidal value system. What can we expect then from some men who believe they literally "own" the bodies of all females & can do whatever they wish as only they are god incarnate? In the battered women's shelters & domestic violence awareness & counseling/therapy programs, it is absolutely amazing how many women & girls are raped, beaten or otherwise abused in their own homes on a daily basis all the time & never report it. Because of their believed devalued status & indoctrination in the beliefs with which this white male system programs all of us. And constantly reminds us on a daily basis as imprinted on our money exactly which church/state system we live in, pay taxes (tithe/donate) to & obey the laws of or submit willingly to as our authority. There are far worse things occuring to females of all ages in our culture many times a day than having a gun held to their head & forced into unwanted sexual activity that they can later just walk away from which never are reported. Far, far worse things. Posted by: Reach Feb 20 2004, 06:44 PM Starflier, this is from page 19, of Jews: The Chosen People. These are my words. ***** A Brief Historical Comment Just a brief aside here on something you won't find in your history books: There was another group that Ulysses S. Grant had a struggle accepting as equals. Finding his bed empty and his loins aching, at some point (early) in his career, out on the Western frontier he took a young native American woman to himself. I don't know if it was for a night or a season but she conceived. My husband is their great, great grandchild. (You might have to toss another "great" in there to make it fit.) And yes, we know her name. The family knows the truth (a matter of rape) while the scholars write whatever they will. Some stuff just ain't in the books. I wonder if the family voted for him when he ran for president... hmm... ***** This is nothing to brag about but to prevent. Take a look at your fifty dollar bill? Posted by: pitchu Feb 20 2004, 07:14 PM Starflier, I understand that you have suffered mightily under male oppression. And I have, too. Many here have. I feel terrible about that, as I feel terrible about any living being suffering under oppression. But I am 61, not too far in age from you, and I, too, have lived through the eras which have informed women in our age group. I have been and am a political activist. I know a lot. A lot of people here know a lot. Sincerely, I hope there'll come a time, soon, when you can relax among us and just talk, rather than lecture us... when your time here is spent in genuine equal exchange with us rather than in what seems to me to be a mission aimed at us, the saddest part of which is that you're preaching to the converted. I would guess there are no more than a handful, if that, on this site who don't share your fundamental view of the sexual history of this planet. Now, back to my question. Does anybody here have any information on the reporting or under-reporting of forced sexual acts at the point of a gun? Posted by: Reach Feb 20 2004, 07:32 PM Gosh pitchu, lots of us are on a date. I was on a date, one of the most fun dates in my entire life. The guy was the manager of a large dinner house. I'd known him for about nine months because my (step)father and I had coffee in his restaurant a couple times a week. Some of us feel stupid over the whole thing. Wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe we had car trouble and accepted a ride from someone. It's surprising how many times this takes place in a vehicle and the gun is in the glove compartment. Perhaps we feel as in the case of the oral acts that it's a little less invasive. Are they taking saliva tests for this? How many men are being silent simply because they don't want to expose themselves to the ridicule and snide remarks that will be made if they report it? The female will hear, "Well, if she didn't dress that way... She deserved it." Some of us don't want the notoriety. We want our life like it was and we aren't willing to pay the price involved in disclosure. Coming out of the closet is generally quite costly. Posted by: Reach Feb 20 2004, 08:39 PM This one is for Erik... QUOTE (Erik the Awful @ Feb 18 2004, 11:52 PM) I suspect that I must forgive... something in the past. The problem is I can't put my finger on it. My rage has become disassoicated from my memories. I don't wish to be defined by my rage. I've never looked at an angry person and thought "Wow, there is an enlightened well adjusted individual." So I'm looking for ways to let it go. My husband and I were looking at the pictures of him when he was a little boy. In his Little League uniforms, with family, at parties and school pictures: after I had seen all of them I realized he was only smiling in one picture out of ten. All of the rest showed an angry scowl. Asking about his anger didn't get us anywhere. At the moment he was willing to talk about it but he said he didn't remember anything that would have gotten to him as a child to produce the anger clearly evidenced in the photos. Other times, he denied that he was "always angry" and yet he created an atmosphere for me and our children where we lived a life of walking on eggshells constantly. We did everything to avoid angering him so his anger became our prison. One time, visiting one of his brothers in Southern California, we found ourselves at the table in a game of poker. We were chugging down some beers, having a good time with friends. My husband lost his temper over a bad hand and his brother teased him. This opened up an opportunity to lightly inquire about my husband's anger. The brother said, "I don't know why he's like that. As far back as I can remember, he's always been angry." I was married to him for six months when one day, in a horrible fight, he yelled at me, "F**k you, you bitch!" No one had ever said that to me in my life. I was stunned. I slapped his face. I regretted that. He slapped me back, twice as hard. He never got in to beating me up but about twice a year he slapped my face or he knocked me down. The last thing he did to me before I walked out, 16 years later, was pick me up and throw me into a wall. I wasn't physically hurt but it was Superbowl Sunday and that's another reason I don't watch football anymore. All the best to you Erik, Reach Posted by: Loren Feb 20 2004, 09:53 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 20 2004, 04:14 PM) How does one explain this phenomenon? How is it possible that (at least) 3 women on this site have had guns put to their heads in a forced sexual act? (This has also happened to my niece.) How is it that we don't hear about this? We hear about other sexual crimes, so what's going on? It's unlikely that we just happen to have a 'pocket' of such a thing, here. Do women not report this at a rate they report rape? Are we too relieved to have come out of it alive to ever mention it again (I thought I was the only one like this)? I don't understand it, and I find it very disturbing. My time in AA woke me to how many average folks have been horribly abused, and women in particular, violently sexually abused. Even allowing for the types of lifestyles of the people who end up going to AA, it seemed to me that there were still a staggeringly huge number. In the 12 step culture, it seemed that seven out of every eight people had been. I became sensitized to it and started to notice it all the hell over the place. And you mentioned how it came "pouring out". I've seen it do that time and again, all over. It's like a psychic membrane stretched too tight from the pressure of whatever is on the other side. If you prick it, guess what? Whoosh. I've seen it all over. At this time, I feel like fully one out of every four or so people have had something very dark done to them at some point of vulnerability. Posted by: pitchu Feb 20 2004, 10:12 PM reach, Erik, Maybe the source(s) of psychic distress, which may never be known, are less important to know than that the distress must never be violently visited on another person. Loren, The more I learn the more I think there's a good chance your 1 out of four figure is conservative. And this is a 'civilized' country. Imagine... Just... something about guns and sex has about it an audacious volcanic finality. It's something different. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 21 2004, 12:24 AM Reach, While I appreciate your cautionary story, I'm not concerned about physically abusing my wife. I've never been able to wrestle her to the ground in a FUN wrestling match. We both carefully gaurd our marriage. Physical violence is forbidden. Speaking of divoice is discouraged. We won't joke about it. The last time I spoke to my wife about divoice was during a discussion where I was communicating some PROFOUND frusteration. I said I wasn't leaving. I've got too much invested. In the past, my wife has said that she was "walking on eggshells." I told her I thought that was wrong. She shouldn't have to. I got some counselling. The situation improved. I can remember one time when in the heat of an argument, I considered violence against my wife. I left the building immediatly. My violent thought subsided within 10 seconds (though I was still pissed as hell.) I don't belive that my marriage, my wife, or my daughter, are in danger because of me. I don't wish to lessen the intensity of your story. I'm sorry those things happened to you. I choose to believe that those things don't apply to me. I'm finding constructive ways to deal with my anger, and I'm going to teach those methods to my children. I'm also going to teach my children how NOT to be a victim. ==================== Pitchu, I believe that discovering and "airing" the SOURCES of distress will releave the distress. I believe that if the distress is NOT releaved, that the distress will "leak" in other ways, to those I care about most, even if not in a violent or abusive way. My father is a profoundly angry individual. Yet he never spanked me in anger, and very rarley if ever spoke to me in anger. I've never believed that my father was angry at me. I've always belived that my father loves me with all his heart and soul. Yet he believes that I've somehow inherited his rage. My goal is to ensure this does not occur between me and my offspring. There is much in this world to be angry about. Being angry about it doesn't really help much of anything. Posted by: Reach Feb 21 2004, 12:48 AM Erik the Awful @ Feb 18 2004, 11:52 PM QUOTE I suspect that I must forgive... something in the past. The problem is I can't put my finger on it. My rage has become disassoicated from my memories. I don't wish to be defined by my rage. I've never looked at an angry person and thought "Wow, there is an enlightened well adjusted individual." So I'm looking for ways to let it go. Erik, I failed at expressing something in that post so I'll clarify things. It was not a cautionary post as I don't see you as anything like my former husband. Understanding the source and onset of his anger would have been helpful but he stayed in denial and never made an effort to deal with it constructively. His unbridled anger hurt all of us because he refused to deal with it. I was thrilled when I read this honest post. I was overjoyed because you're not in denial and that seems to be at least half the battle. You honor your wife and daughter by your wise choice. I AM happy for you. Again, that was not a cautionary post at all. Reach

Posted by: Reach Jan 18 2005, 08:51 AM

The remainder of the thread... Posted by: biggles7268 Feb 21 2004, 01:15 AM Erik if more people could deal with their anger as you do, there would be alot less problems in this world. Just because you get angry doesn't singnal a problem, it's how you deal with it that is important. My father was also very easy to get angry, but he never took it out on me or my sister. And that is the important difference. Posted by: michelle Feb 21 2004, 01:17 AM IBF, Ditto with the ninth step. Been there, done that. Guilt gone. Theres no need for guilt when you really have changed. AA always described the real amends to be a changing of yourself anyway. At least they were good for something. The 9th step was actually a good one but then they go & mess it up with the 11th step. lmao_99.gif At any rate, at least we can do these things without a God now. How did that happen? lmao_99.gif I dont know I guess the conscious kicks in a little late for some of us. I mean it was always there but using it was another matter, especially with life on a bar stool or in the grips of freebasing cocaine. Theres real freedom in not needing a God to direct your conscience. The 12 steppers are capable of doing the same things we are but we do it on our own. Im not trying to say Im better than but stronger than? Probably. I know that sounded really bad. spanka.gif Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 21 2004, 08:55 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 21 2004, 03:17 AM) IBF, Ditto with the ninth step. Been there, done that. Guilt gone. Theres no need for guilt when you really have changed. Michelle: Is making amends the ninth step? I honestly don't remember. I remember thinking that making amends was very important to me and my recovery. I can recall my first few weeks at Narcotics Anonymous; I was in such a terrible place in my life and desperately needed help. But even in that condition I recognized NA for it was: a mini-cult. I refused to say that "I am powerless over my addiction." I knew I had the power within ME to stop. I was constantly scolded for not working the steps in the proper order and refusing to take a sponsor. I met a few other people at the meetings who were as annoyed at the religious overtones of the meetings as I was and we in a sense sponsored each other. Nothing annoyed me more than listening to someone with ten years of sobriety carrying on about how you will go back to using again if you leave NA. We were told that the people who dropped out were using again. I knew better. After three years of meetings, the only time I ever thought about using drugs again was while I was in a meeting!! I refused to make 'recovery' a religion and left NA for good. I was fortunate to have a wonderful roommate who left NA at the same time. We lived together for six years and kept an eye on each other. Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 21 2004, 09:13 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Feb 20 2004, 07:14 PM) How does one explain this phenomenon? How is it possible that (at least) 3 women on this site have had guns put to their heads in a forced sexual act? (This has also happened to my niece.) What amazes me is that most the stories presented so far are not the Hollywood versions you would expect. These are not men that sneak up behind you and take you to a dark alley. These are men you know. They have families and jobs and just assume you will remain quiet about the assault. I don't understand the motivation behind the attacks. I have read books where they say these men have a need to project their power over women to satisfy some deep seated need, but I don't recognize that need within myself. (or the gay version of it anyway) Except for a couple of brief fights with my brother when I as a kid, I have never hit anyone out of anger, nor have I even wanted to. Yes, I have been angry many times, but that anger always makes me want to be alone, not lash out. My partner and I have been together for over five years now and not once have either of us even yelled at each in anger, let alone hit each other. I just don't get it. Am I unusual? Come to think of it, I NEVER saw my father yell at or hit my mother. Posted by: Dragon_Made_Flesh Feb 21 2004, 09:14 AM Hmm..Forgiveness...to me forigveness and moving on with life are completely different things. To me forgiving someone who has caused you so much pain is just telling them its okay...(NOTE* THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING ELSE). Moving on is not letting that person continue to take your life away. When I was growing up, my father was a very abusive alcoholic. Mentally and physically. He would yell, call names, I once saw him choke my mother (luckily she grabbed a near by wine bottle and knocked him over the head with it). I was beaten with a belt if he thought he heard be "talk back" to him, if I made anything lower than a B in my classes (espically math). There was one time I had amde a 79 in math and forth or fifth grade and he went to the local Burger King and got an application and said "Here..you might as well fill this out now because since you are so stupid this is all you will amount to anything." My mother while she was loving at that time also turned into an alcoholic to deal with my dad and when I was in high school became emoitionaly not there and hurtful. She showed up drunk to my graduation. My cousin when I was eleven sexually assaulted me when I was 11. He wanted to play a game and then during this game he started groping me. My cousin has hated me to this day for telling on him. When I left for college I met this guy. And of course he told me all the right things I wanted to hear. We started dating. My mom didn't like him but of course I thought. "What does she know?" So I continued to date him and eventually moved into a place together with him. That's when things started to change. He became abusive..and very violently so. He then had a mental breakdown and then got on meds and seemed to be fine. Then I became pregnant with his child and he became emoitionaly abusive again. This of course escalted further when one day he slammed my head into a computer CPU, amongst other things. I wanted to leave. But he said if I did that when I had my son he would take custody of him away from me. Like a fool I thought I could stay and change this "man" and try to have a family for my son. And after my son was born it seemed that he had changed for the better. Untill on day I had left the house to take care of some stuff and was told by the police that my son was being flown to Egleston Children's Hospital for severe head trauma. My EX decided to shake and beat my son to death. He had 2 skull fractures, bi-lateral retinal hemoraging, a broken rib, a ruptured spinal cord, and a collapsed lung among other small bruises. He was charged and him and his lawyer dragged out things for nearly TWO YEARS after my son's murder. He finally plead guilty and took a plea bargin where he would serve 20 years with 10 more years of probation. Thanks to all this I suffer from severe clinical depression, severe anxiety, post traumatic stress disorder, and dissociative disorder. My mother my only real sense of support through this has since died because of all the stress the case put on her health. I have very few friends who have stood by me, because most people don't want to "put up" with someone who has as much baggage as me. I can say that I will NEVER EVER forgive these people. Even if I had the chance to kill my ex for what he did it would not help because my son would still be dead. I have moved on as well as I have been able to. I met another man a year after my son died, and we are now planning a wedding. He is the oposite of my ex, he is truthful, kind, loving, smart, and funny. I have learned to get up everyday and actually think of a reason to get out of bed. I can say my son's name without bursting into a tears. So you see for me..moving on is different. It is just like saying "You aren't going to get me again" but forgiving to me is telling that person.."its okay" and it sure as hell isn't. Posted by: pitchu Feb 21 2004, 09:35 AM Dragon, I have no words to offer which could come close to expressing how I feel about what you've gone through. I'm just glad you're here with us. Posted by: michelle Feb 21 2004, 12:51 PM I never really wanted to join in on this thread when I seen the word forgiveness, actually I jumped over it & wouldnt even read the thread beased on its title. And then the next I decide to look anyway and what do I see? Just what I expected, violence. There is no human need for forgiveness from the victims. Its got to be a Christian thing, this forgiveness. Just forget about it, I dont even think its normal to forgive, I really dont. IBF, You were very smart not to get involved with the steps. I think alot of it has to do with what area the meeting is being held at. For some reason, the steps and sharing about Christianity are more common in wealthy areas, I have no idea why but its true. When you attend a meeting in ghetto areas or low income you wont hear as much talk about steps and youll find the occasional agnostic & atheist. It makes no sense to me why smarter people are found in poorer areas because you would think intelligence would lead to sucess. I dont get it but that it is how it is in AA. On the north shore of Long Island, the meetings are very Christian like. I didnt notice it much at the time but now that Im out I can see very clearly how AA really has 2 different styles to it, 2 different ways of working the program or joining the fellowship whatever you want to call it. Unfortuneatly my homegroup was in Glen Head Long Island, I went to groups in Manhasset, Great Neck, Brookville, and ended in Wading River. Very Christian & very high income city's. Too bad there never was a Jewish only AA Im sure it would have been healthier. But who knows, this dependacy on any type of God doesnt seem to be worth it. I never was a severe alcoholic although they had me convinced that I was because I cracked up a few cars. I do controlled drinking now. Most people go through a wild stage in their 20's anyway. Alcohol abuse when youre young doesnt equal alcoholism, not to me it doesnt. Im not an alcoholic, I dont think I ever was. The meetings are made up of alot of people who actually arent but being the cult that it is there seems to be a beleif that if youve wound up at a meeting you must be a drunk. My neighbor downstairs drinks when he wakes up in the morning thats probably an alcoholic. Ive done it again and went on and on about this subject, sorry. Wendyshrug.gif Posted by: Reach Feb 21 2004, 01:13 PM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 21 2004, 11:51 AM) I never really wanted to join in on this thread when I seen the word forgiveness, actually I jumped over it & wouldnt even read the thread beased on its title. And then the next I decide to look anyway and what do I see? Just what I expected, violence. There is no human need for forgiveness from the victims. Its got to be a Christian thing, this forgiveness. Just forget about it, I dont even think its normal to forgive, I really dont. I see forgiveness as part of life, Michelle, not just a Christian thing. QUOTE: fortunehooks @ Feb 12 2004, 09:41 PM HATE IS COMPLICATED, AND LOVE HAS A COVER CHARGE. I'm not perfect and sometimes I have to say,"I'm sorry." If there is no forgiveness on the other side of those words, then I sure don't need to say them anymore. Sometimes it's hard to admit wrong doing but the world would be much more vile without forgiveness and letting go of the chains that bind. I see forgiveness as a cover charge for love. Posted by: Dragon_Made_Flesh Feb 21 2004, 02:14 PM Forgiveness as a cover charge for love...that's an interesting thought I guess. But in order to move on with my life after all I have been through I never once thought about forgiving my father, my ex, or my cousin for what they put me through. I found love because I was lucky enough to find the right person. There is no give and take here...I don't let any chains hold on to me. Non-forgiveness is not like some plauge that is going to drag you down in the mire just because you do not dain to give these bastards your forgiveness. You don't need to forgive someone to feel better in your life. Maybe some people forgive because its easier for them to accept what happend. Well , I can't accept what happend. Posted by: pitchu Feb 21 2004, 02:24 PM Imo, when you say "I'm sorry" and mean it, it's wonderful for the person on the other side to be able to say, "I forgive you." But if there is no sincere apology, no sign of regret, total vanishing from the crime scene, or continued contempt, the "I forgive you" on the other side could well be the result of low self-value. "You loathesome prick!" from the other side could well be the result of a clear-headed assessment of reality. It depends. Posted by: Reach Feb 21 2004, 02:30 PM QUOTE (Dragon_Made_Flesh @ Feb 21 2004, 08:14 AM) I have very few friends who have stood by me, because most people don't want to "put up" with someone who has as much baggage as me. I can say that I will NEVER EVER forgive these people. Even if I had the chance to kill my ex for what he did it would not help because my son would still be dead. Dragon, Please consider this the station where you can offload baggage. All of us have some, to be certain, but I doubt many of us are carrying a load like yours. With what you've had to contend with, unimagineable to me, it's enough to just let go and move on. I'm so glad you found the strength to do that and that the right person could be found to walk beside you. The loss of your precious little boy? May you have peace. *hugs* from reach Posted by: michelle Feb 21 2004, 07:33 PM Reach, Sorry if I offended by calling forgiveness a Christian thing. Alot of times when I respond to a thread Im really thinking about the topic and not the person who started it, I know that sounds rude but to be really honest ya gotta respond to the issue right? Anyway my thoughts about forgiveness were nothing personal towards you. But forgiveness really is a Christian concept dont ya thinK? Dont ya think its from the bible and a God? For me, God is a controller. The religion of Christianity is a controller. I really dont see forgiveness as a part of life or a cover charge for love. I can forgive the people I love for the little things but that doesnt mean I have to forgive, its a choice. And not forgiving doesnt make you a hater, it could mean that you do hate your trespasser but it doesnt make you a hater in general. Maybe forgiveness is a part of who you are & thats great if it workd for you. Im thinking that forgiving your trespassers can keep you powerless though. Its like this: some people see forgiveness as a way to get over a hurt and some people get over a hurt by not forgiving. However you get past it you get past it. But forgiveness could lead to loving the person who hurt you. Now am I gonna sit here and LOVE the guy who molested me when I was 5 yrs old? Why love him, if forgiveness leads to love like you describe. No way Im not going to love these people. Do you honestly say to yourself, its okay about the guy who raped me, he was sick so its not his fault, I forgive him because he was sick? I have been looking at hate lately and I have decided its a part of life. I love, I hate, Im human. I dont sit around concentrating on past hurts, I wouldnt say that Im in a state of resentment but hey I just dont like some people and why should I like them if their evil? Why should I? Because theres a God who says that I should? Theres no God for me & that changes alot of things. See, I knew I should of stayed out of this thread. Dont you think that forgiveness is bringing Christian action into this? I dont know maybe forgiveness is something that should be discussed in the debate section. Youre a loving person Reach, I just hope it doesnt work against you. What do I know? Forgiveness has to be looked at further. I dont have the answers. The only thing I can say is that forgiveness depends on what exactly the tresspass was. Im sure you can agree with that. I have no problem with saying Im sorry I worked AA's 10th step for over 5 years ( Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it) The question is how often are you wrong? AA's expression of the 10th step is that "if we remove our garbage promptly, our house doesnt stink". Well, Im not garbage and it depends, how often are you wrong? Not to be conceeded but Im more often right than wrong and who cares anyway. AA says "we have ceased fighting anything or anyone". Sound like forgiveness? How powerless can ya get? Theres always going to be someone who needs to be fought with, this happens almost everyday, its a part of my life. Theres always an attacker out here in the hood. lmao_99.gif I dont mean physically but you get the picture. Theres going to be people who are FOR YOU and theres going to be people who ARE AGAINST YOU. Its part of being a part of a group, any group. It cant be constant unity all of the time. I usually go with whatever benefits the group with the exception of when one person is going to get really hurt, at that point I can usually get the persons back without caring what the group thinks. Im going off topic now. I still think forgiveness should be reserved for those close to you, not some stranger. Posted by: Reach Feb 21 2004, 08:24 PM Michelle, You didn't offend me at all, not in the least. The reason I titled this thread "Forgiveness, Letting go," is because I recognize we experience some of each in our lives. Some people we forgive by choice. Other times what has been done to us is so hideous that we can find no sane explanation for it and we simply have to let go, in a way, and go on with our life. I liked Fortunehooks quote and I was tossing it out there, more or less, as an interesting thing to consider. I appreciate your being so sensitive to others' feelings. This topic has pretty much been about relating some of our tragic stories. Sometimes it helps to read about what others have been through and how they got through the garbage that was dumped on them or the crimes committed against them. It helps us to remember I'm not the only one, especially when we're down in the dumps. To me, that 'getting through' is the whole key. Michelle, we just have to do whatever we can to get through life. I'm not sure but I think all religions teach some forgiveness and a marriage won't work at all without some. When I talk about forgiveness here, sometimes I'm speaking in a general sense and including the ones we love, like you're talking about. You said this, "Theres going to be people who are FOR YOU and theres going to be people who ARE AGAINST YOU." It's wise to learn to recognize the difference and LEARN TO PROTECT OURSELVES AGAINST the enemy. Thanks for bringing that up. Self defense ought to be taught starting in grammar school. Thanks for your posts and all your great comments. I always enjoy hearing your perspectives, and what you include from the hood. Many thanks. You are wise, Michelle. Posted by: Starflier Feb 23 2004, 04:24 PM I've been offline since Friday...computer problems...fixed now though. Lost track of this thread altogether & haven't the time to go back & reread anything. I guess I've said everything I had to say on the subject though really. I'm in the process of fore-giving or giving up sending bad energy & vengeful thoughts to those that I was hurt by. I never have been violently inclined or ever thought to do anything vengeful, get revenge or take my angst out on others such as my kids, pets or whomever so that's not a problem for me. I just mush onward in my life & do the best I can to improve myself in all ways & learn from past experiences. I think that's the best anyone can do. Posted by: michelle Feb 23 2004, 09:31 PM Giving up sending vengeful thoughts to those that hurt ya, now theres an idea. I dont take things as personally as I use to and therefore I get hurt less. I have never felt hurt by anything posted on this site. Wow, what growth. Posted by: michelle Feb 23 2004, 09:34 PM Im not tryin to toot my own horn or anything but I cant remember the last time I ever felt envy either. How in the world did this ever happen? You got me. Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 08:35 AM Give it some time, right? trt19ROFLPIMP.gif Posted by: brick Feb 24 2004, 12:50 PM As a footnote, I would like to offer this little pearl of wisedom from the east; 'Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer have to carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean that we will allow injustice again.' Take what you want from this. Posted by: Reach Feb 24 2004, 01:04 PM QUOTE (brick @ Feb 24 2004, 11:50 AM) 'Forgiveness is primarily for our own sake, so that we no longer have to carry the burden of resentment. But to forgive does not mean that we will allow injustice again.' This is exactly how I view it. I think some people tend to think that we give forgiveness to others and that can be but I believe that primarily it is the key that unlocks the door to what could be a prison for me. Forgiveness sets ME free. The other party may never change at all but I'm set free of the bitterness and resentment another's dastardly deeds could have chained me with. Thanks Brian. That's how it's been for me. reach Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 01:20 PM Thats what AA says too. Forgiveness is about setting your own self free. Im thinking forgiveness might be easier with closure & confrontation. I want an apology. I dont know where the man is who use to like to stick his hand down my pants when I was 5 years old but I sincerly would like to smack his face, really hard, several times, maybe spit at him too, then I would be over it. Not that I think about it much except when I read in the paper & what not, whenever Im exposed to the fact that it is still going on. See why I dont watch the news? Its a mad fucking world. Posted by: Reach Feb 24 2004, 01:51 PM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 24 2004, 12:20 PM) I dont know where the man is who use to like to stick his hand down my pants when I was 5 years old but I sincerly would like to smack his face, really hard, several times, maybe spit at him too, then I would be over it. Boy Michelle, you're a lot nicer than me! There's a part of me that wants a whole lot more. If that guy didn't CHANGE and he's still doing that to innocent, little, five-year-old girls, frankly, I want to see his hands cut off. I know that's 'not nice' but that's what I'd like to see happen. Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 02:04 PM Yep, I agree. Theyre really just animals arent they? Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 02:14 PM I forgot to say, I dont know if hes still doing it or not. The last we heard after he got out of jail, he repented, gave himself to the lord and is always carrying a bible. I really hate to say this but if by any slim chance, his beleif in God stops him from those behaviors I hope he prays 24, 7. You just never know, faith to me is insanity but if by any chance his faith keeps his conduct striaght Im all for it. It would be nice to think that he stopped doing it or that it was his only time doing it. Of course life in prison is the insurance that hes not but we all know they dont get life in prison for sex crimes. Now theres an issue to fight for, life in prison for all sex crimes. Forget the spitting & slapping I want him in prison for life, then we could be certain that its not still going on. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 24 2004, 03:08 PM A few observations... 1. Angry men (aka men who were abused as children) are statisticly more likely to become abusers, wether sexual, physical or verbal. Women who were abused as children are statisticly more likely to date, marry, or allow abusers access to their children in some way. It would be useful to know the METHODS used by those who have successfully left and or recovered from such situations. My point here is that those who have successfully recovered from such situations have found some way of getting over it. I don't know what that is. I suspect forgiveness, or as Pitchu said, Understanding. Maybe a little of both. I do KNOW that carrying around anger hurts the carrier more than the person against whom the anger is felt. I lack experience with revenge... maybe I should try that before I go round recommending forgiveness so strongly. 2. My recommended punishment for rapists and child abusers is this: Remove the genetila of the abuser and cause them to die choking on them. If they manage to swallow, they'd bleed to death before long... Woodsmokes Mom has some similar ideas. Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 08:52 PM Im glad you jumped in, I thought I was going to be the dreaded thread stopper again. These are extremly hard issues. I dont know how it is woman who have been abused attract abusers but I know my mother was raped as a teen. I went the other way with it... because of what happened in my childhood I would not trust anyone with my kids, I refused to leave them with a sitter until they could talk. Imagine the stress this put on me. People who have been abused grow up to be very paranoid, we have serious trust issues. I really know how to cook up things that arent there even to this day. Its so fucked up. I do paranoid checkers with my freinds, once in awhile I literally have to run things by others to make sure Im not cooking something up. Nobody should have to live that way. Once youve been on a psyche ward you are forever in fear of going nuts again. I hope it gets better in time. Its not a daily thing but about once a month you deal with the anxiety of it all. Anxiety or stress is part of life though even for so called normal people. My mother & my sister have felt anxiety attacks and theyve never been to a hospital. When I get stressed I get busy. I could get the whole house clean in a matter of minutes. lmao_99.gif Whatever it takes. If I get really stressed I'll clean every house on this block. At least Im laughing. It sure beats cryin. lmao_99.gif Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 08:59 PM So... if you spot me walkin backwards down your street with a bucket and a couple of dust mops swung over my shoulders youll know why lmao_99.gif Im laughing so hard my stomach hurts. Got stress? Start cleanin lmao_99.gif Posted by: michelle Feb 24 2004, 09:24 PM This is off the topic of forgiveness but you know what the biggest problem for people who get anxiety or stress is? They have absolutely no place and no one to take it to. Youve got people out there who are gonna get doors shut in their faces by their own family members. People can truly get selfish & self centered. Not me, I got doors I can knock on when the shit hits the fan. My door gets knocked on too. Its really sad when youre in a marriage and your own spouse walks away from ya. The balls of some people, I just dont get it. vent.gif That Christian world sure can be a lonely one. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 24 2004, 09:55 PM Oh dear michelle, I'm so glad I didn't piss you off with my above observations. Maybe I should shut the fuck up while I'm ahead, but that ain't in my nature. QUOTE I dont know how it is woman who have been abused attract abusers but I know my mother was raped as a teen. I hypotosize that it is because women who are victimized as children learn to be victims. Note here that I will teach my daughter how NOT not to be a victim. Also note that it's not just women who are taught how to be victims. Here's a message I keep seeing: "If you ain't a victimiser, yer a victim." QUOTE People who have been abused grow up to be very paranoid, we have serious trust issues. I dunno 'bout this one michelle, I was never abused and I have profound trust issues. My wife was abused and is the one who talks me into trusting. QUOTE Once youve been on a psyche ward you are forever in fear of going nuts again. I don't accept the idea that just because this society has put you in a psyche ward means you were ever "nuts." I can really really truly understand wanting to avoid wanting to go back... QUOTE I could get the whole house clean in a matter of minutes. Now THERE is a talent I should develop. QUOTE At least Im laughing. It sure beats cryin. Someone once said to me that "crying is a sign that you are alive." Not that I like doin it where anyone's watching. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 02:42 AM QUOTE (Erik the Awful @ Feb 24 2004, 08:55 PM) QUOTE I dont know how it is woman who have been abused attract abusers but I know my mother was raped as a teen. I hypotosize that it is because women who are victimized as children learn to be victims. Note here that I will teach my daughter how NOT not to be a victim. Also note that it's not just women who are taught how to be victims. Here's a message I keep seeing: "If you ain't a victimiser, yer a victim." Interesting, isn't it, that no men I've read so far on these forums, or elsewhere for that moatter, have reported having to forgive any woman for having raped or sexually abused them via physical force. It's always women or children complaining about some man or men who raped or otherwise sexually abused them. Not the other way around. One has to wonder why so many men in our world find it necessary to do such sexually abusive things to women & children? It says a lot about men in general in our world, I'd say. It also says a lot about little respected women & children are in comparison to men. It makes it hard to trust ANY man in fact ultimately. For I was taught that men are supposed to be our (women/kids) protectors. Against whom or what? All I can see is to protect us against themselves...men in general. Oh yes I know women can be sexually abusive too, but one rarely hears of it or not nearly as frequently as we do of men abusing women & kids. Also I've personally never experineced any sexual abuse or sexually insulting commnets by any woman or girl in my whole life. But I have many times over by men & older boys. I had a conversation with a woman friend recently who said that women can & do rape men & children. But this I cannot fathom for women don't have the physical equipment to do so in the first place. So I honestly cannot convince myself that some women are rapists. Though I realize that an object, a thing, could be used by a woman for rape purposes but so can an external object be used by any boy or man. But that's not the same at all as using one's anatomy as a weapon on other alleged "weaker" people (women & kids). So what does this say about men & what they're taught about women & girls to begin with? If it doesn't come from the male deity religions, then where does it come from? Biology? Are men born to be predators of women & children but most men have learned to restrain themselves in that department? I'd like to hear from others on this subject & what can be done to change it or why it's an issue at all. Posted by: I Broke Free Feb 25 2004, 08:25 AM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 25 2004, 04:42 AM) Are men born to be predators of women & children but most men have learned to restrain themselves in that department? I'd like to hear from others on this subject & what can be done to change it or why it's an issue at all. Sadly I think some men are born to be predators. If we look at the social life of some other primates (Goodall's study of chimps is a good example) we see all the same 'negative' sexual and domineering behaviors in male chimps that we see in many human males. This type of behavior, although abhorrent to us, is a successful mating strategy. Sadly we also see some of the same 'negative' behaviors in female chimps. (Being sexually drawn to the dominate male) that seems to mirrored in human females. I also want to assure you that most men are not 'restraining' urges to lash out in sexual violence. Those urges are just NOT there to begin with. Posted by: pitchu Feb 25 2004, 10:14 AM Two of many factors are size and strength. Battery committed by women on men, by youngers on elders, by women on children, by children on animals, exhibits this. Unless a weapon is involved, before one harms, one must have the capability to overpower. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 25 2004, 10:48 AM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 25 2004, 01:42 AM) Interesting, isn't it, that no men I've read so far on these forums, or elsewhere for that moatter, have reported having to forgive any woman for having raped or sexually abused them via physical force. It's always women or children complaining about some man or men who raped or otherwise sexually abused them. Not the other way around. Men (and boys) do get raped and assaulted by women. They are less likely to talk about it in public because of the social stigma and sense of emasculation, and because men, in general, talk less about their personal lives than women do. But it happens. Posted by: Reach Feb 25 2004, 11:33 AM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM) Men (and boys) do get raped and assaulted by women. They are less likely to talk about it in public because of the social stigma and sense of emasculation, and because men, in general, talk less about their personal lives than women do. But it happens. Yes, it does. Most of our social order has not made a place for this silent scream by men to be heard. Where does a male rape victim go to vent? As I noted in my story of rape on this thread... sexually abused men are out there. The majority may remain silent but DOZENS of them have told me their story. They are a silent group but I hope they are not a silent majority. Another type of don't ask? Don't tell? He can't tell and we can't count the numbers. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 25 2004, 02:36 PM QUOTE Interesting, isn't it, that no men I've read so far on these forums, or elsewhere for that moatter, have reported having to forgive any woman for having raped or sexually abused them via physical force. It's always women or children complaining about some man or men who raped or otherwise sexually abused them. Not the other way around I wasn’t direct enough in my original statement. Women (not all) in abusive situations tend to learn to be victims. Men in abusive situations (AKA victimized Men) tend to learn to be victimizers. Victimizers learn not to talk about or admit being victims. That would remove their “power.” Men who are not victimizers but who were victimized tend to learn not to talk about their experiences. Ultimately, thinking of everyone as a victim or victimizer is common in this society, and profoundly destructive. QUOTE It says a lot about men in general in our world, I'd say. Starflier, when you make invalid, profoundly offensive generalizations in the future would you prefer that I point them out, cuss you out, or ignore you? If you believe that the fact male abusers exist says anything about me and who I am, simply because I’m male, how can I have any respect for you? You compare me to a rapist, just because I’m a man, despite my universal condemnation of the act, and despite my efforts to find balance in a male dominated society. I used to hate my self because I was white and male. People like you have always expected nothing but the worst from me because I am white and male, all evidence to the contrary. I used to believe people like you. I used to believe people like you, when you said that I was capable of nothing good. Then I started to discover the power of taking responsibility for myself, even in situations where I could have said “I was a victim.” QUOTE Though I realize that an object, a thing, could be used by a woman for rape purposes but so can an external object be used by any boy or man. But that's not the same at all as using one's anatomy as a weapon on other alleged "weaker" people (women & kids). I’d bet Abner Louima would disagree with you. QUOTE I'd like to hear from others on this subject & what can be done to change it or why it's an issue at all. You are probably tired of hearing from me, but I don’t care. The reason this is a problem at all is because of the victim/victimizer cycle and thought process. Our society races to find who has been hurt more than who. We glorify victims. We allow ourselves to think that the victimizers aren’t responsible for their actions because they were victimized or whatever. I’ll try to give this topic a more balanced posting when I’m less angry. Until then, try to remember this: You don’t define me. I do. I don’t define you; You do. Posted by: MalaInSe Feb 25 2004, 02:58 PM QUOTE (Erik the Awful @ Feb 24 2004, 02:08 PM) It would be useful to know the METHODS used by those who have successfully left and or recovered from such situations. I left my batterer because I was on the train and travelling to visit my mother, when I met myself. It was always very difficult to get permission to go see my family, as my boyfriend had decided that I must be seeing somebody where my mother lived. I guess he just wasn't convinced that I wanted to see my family. I do understand, by the way, that the accusation of infidelity was a cover for his cutting off my contact with my family. He would occasionally let me go, I think because he recognized that if he cut me off from them entirely, they might actually suspect what he was actually doing to me, and take action. As you might be able to tell from my previous post, my family believes me to be irresponsible and selfish, so they believed that it was my choice not to see them. Well, there I was on the train, when a woman in an advanced stage of pregnancy got on the train. I had watched her say goodbye to a man at the station. During the four hour ride, we discovered that we had a lot in common-- way too much. However, when she discovered she was pregnant, she married her batterer. She was trapped and miserable. I knew that it was only a matter of time before my batterer convinced me that we should have a baby. I told my mom everything. When I returned home, I went to my supervisor and asked to be laid off in the next round, which rumor said would occur that week. I explained everything to him. He was extremely sympathetic, and I was laid off. I went home. Because I was supporting his sorry but, my batterer had to move in with his family in another city. I left, pretending that the relationship was not over. I was still so afraid of telling him I was leaving. Something that should be explained here is that there had been a drug deal that went bad for my boyfriend. The dealer cheated him. Things did not end well for the dealer. He always told me that he knew people that would "take care" of me if I ever left. When I went back to my mom's town, I went into hiding. Two weeks after having my very first internet access, and six weeks after I left him, he found me online and emailed me. His email was full of veiled threats. I went into hiding again. I tricked him. That's how I left. I won't be completely free of worry until I know he's dead. Pitchu, as I think you know, I am a state certified Domestic Violence Advocate. Sexual violence is extremely disgustingly common. I would say that you would be hardpressed to find a woman in this country who is not a survivor of sexual violence. My batterer's preferred method was sexual. I didn't know until I went through the training, that its considered the worst form of abuse. Its hard to discover when the woman does not seek help, because the marks are generally not visible, and the woman is embarrassed. I wish I were surprised, pitchu, but I'm not. Renee Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 03:24 PM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM) QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 25 2004, 01:42 AM) Interesting, isn't it, that no men I've read so far on these forums, or elsewhere for that moatter, have reported having to forgive any woman for having raped or sexually abused them via physical force. It's always women or children complaining about some man or men who raped or otherwise sexually abused them. Not the other way around. Men (and boys) do get raped and assaulted by women. They are less likely to talk about it in public because of the social stigma and sense of emasculation, and because men, in general, talk less about their personal lives than women do. But it happens. Yes I've heard it happens, as I said. But how, exactly, does a woman go about raping a grown man? Assault in general is a different issue, IMO. Anyone can assault another person or animal, etc. This is about rape though which is explicity sexual assault to satisfy one's own sex drive at the expense of another human being's comfort or safety & against their explicit consent. So back to square one. How does a woman or girl assault a male sexually for the purpose of rape in any way, shape or form? I personally have never heard of it happening, ever. With the exception of the infamous whasthername (?) who cut off her husband's or boyfriend's penis several years back. But that was allegedly done as self-defense or a final act of complete & utter frustration against his ongoing previous sexual assaults on her. So back to the original female intended rape issue. For what purpose would a female want to rape a male use brute force against him to have her own way or satisfy her sexual urges via force? Seduction I can understand but rape by a female against a male I cannot fathom at all. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 03:30 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 25 2004, 10:33 AM) QUOTE (sexkitten @ Feb 25 2004, 09:48 AM) Men (and boys) do get raped and assaulted by women. They are less likely to talk about it in public because of the social stigma and sense of emasculation, and because men, in general, talk less about their personal lives than women do. But it happens. Yes, it does. Most of our social order has not made a place for this silent scream by men to be heard. Where does a male rape victim go to vent? As I noted in my story of rape on this thread... sexually abused men are out there. The majority may remain silent but DOZENS of them have told me their story. They are a silent group but I hope they are not a silent majority. Another type of don't ask? Don't tell? He can't tell and we can't count the numbers. Yes indeed sexually abused men are definitely out there. My gay brother & his friends have clued me in about that a long time ago. But they've never, ever mentioned being raped by a female or knowing any male that ever was raped by a female. That's my point. See my other post questioning rape by a female against a male for the purpose of satisfying her sexual urges or getting orgasmic release at his expense & nonconsent by him via her brute force. Posted by: CodeWarren Feb 25 2004, 03:39 PM QUOTE Seduction I can understand but rape by a female against a male I cannot fathom at all. When speaking of rape you have to keep in mind that coersion of minors into having sex is also rape, albeit statutory rape. Women can rape under these circumstances. Why? The human mind is a fertile ground, and disorders and complexes and bad neural wiring lurk there. Perhaps you cannot fathom it because you are not them! One of the biggest fallacies of thinking in any area is presuming that others use reason or normal thought like yourself and other like people. But more to the point, Starflier, I really don't see how a woman could rape (in the strictest sense) a man. But the key word is "man". Coersion is a different story, but ONLY if the male is underage. The reason I say this is because if one allows coersion as a means of rape for anyone out of the range of statutory rape, that would make any guy trying pick up a girl in a bar (or vice versa!) subject to prosecution. QUOTE Domestic Violence Advocate If you don't mind MalaInSe (Renee), would you mind telling me what your title allows you to do? If not on this thread, then via PM? I'm curious, and I salute you for what you've been through and how you combat it now. Posted by: Rhiannon Feb 25 2004, 03:44 PM Drugs. She drugs him, then rapes him. I know a lot of men who would never dream of lifting their hand to hurt a woman, even if it means defending himself from her. Good, kind men who have been physically abused for years because they are gentle and would never even consider hitting her back, or even restraining her even though he is physically stronger. I also know a lot of women who mentally abuse their partner, slowly but surely chiselling away his self-confidence until you are left with a shell of the man you started with. Starflier, I can appreciate you have personally been abused by many different men. Dont assume they are all like that. I know some men who are just amazing, gentle, kind and loving. I know some men who are evil visious bastards. I also know some women who would do anything for you, and some who's only pleasure is to see other people suffer. There are bad people in the world, no arguements there, but you cant class all men as bastards just as you cant class all women as perfect beings. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 04:14 PM QUOTE (Erik the Awful @ Feb 25 2004, 01:36 PM) QUOTE It says a lot about men in general in our world, I'd say. 1. Starflier, when you make invalid, profoundly offensive generalizations in the future would you prefer that I point them out, cuss you out, or ignore you? 2. If you believe that the fact male abusers exist says anything about me and who I am, simply because I’m male, how can I have any respect for you? You compare me to a rapist, just because I’m a man, despite my universal condemnation of the act, and despite my efforts to find balance in a male dominated society. 3. I used to hate my self because I was white and male. People like you have always expected nothing but the worst from me because I am white and male, all evidence to the contrary. I used to believe people like you. I used to believe people like you, when you said that I was capable of nothing good. 4. Then I started to discover the power of taking responsibility for myself, even in situations where I could have said “I was a victim.” QUOTE Though I realize that an object, a thing, could be used by a woman for rape purposes but so can an external object be used by any boy or man. But that's not the same at all as using one's anatomy as a weapon on other alleged "weaker" people (women & kids). 5. I’d bet Abner Louima would disagree with you. QUOTE I'd like to hear from others on this subject & what can be done to change it or why it's an issue at all. 6. You are probably tired of hearing from me, but I don’t care. The reason this is a problem at all is because of the victim/victimizer cycle and thought process. Our society races to find who has been hurt more than who. We glorify victims. We allow ourselves to think that the victimizers aren’t responsible for their actions because they were victimized or whatever. 7. I’ll try to give this topic a more balanced posting when I’m less angry. Until then, try to remember this: You don’t define me. I do. I don’t define you; You do. 1. Either or, as you so choose, Erik. I like the feedback though as I'm here to learn & resolve my own issues. I've said as much many times over on these topics. To resolve my own issues, I need feeback to respond to. Else I wouldn't still be here. So keep on keepin' on then, agry or not. I can only come from my own personal experience & that of others of both genders in my life, my two victimized adult beloved sons included. 2. Don't know why you're taking this personally as I wrote nothing at all about you personally. Further I'm not here to gain anyone's respect, only my own & to resolve my personal issues & get some questions answered or other things resolved for myself as I can't do that for anyone else, can I? So your personal respect for me personally doesn't mean much to me really. Now if I knew you in person, it might or in the context of what you're doing to enlighten others might. But otherwise I never compared you personally to a rapist either. I must say though, I do commend you for your personal efforts to balance out the male rapist victim/victimizer thing in the world & within yourself. There are many men like yourself whom I've met online & off doing the same. I welcome that wholeheartedly. So thank you from the bottom of my heart. These are my true trustworthy men friends, yes. I always try to use "SOME" men, not "ALL" men in my posts if you'll go back & read them. The "men in general" statement had more to do with sex urges in men & their deisre to satisfy those as compared to women. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I hope my other posts made that more clear. 3. I'm so sorry you used to hate yourself for being a white male. There was obviously no need for you to do so since you're not the stereotypical rapist, assaulting, abusive male type, was there? 4. I have done the same for myself. Would that more people would follow suit. Unfortunately many still haven't & may never do so. 5. Who's Abner Luima & what's he got to do with any of this? 6. Not at all tired of hearing from you, Erik. Tired of viewing your ugly avatar though, yes indeed. I even turned off all the avatars for a while just to avoid seeing yours in particular. But then I couldn't see anyone else's either. So they're back on again now. But yours looks to me like a predator zombie male up to no good whatsoever. So what's a person supposed to think when associating that to yourself? I, for one, would greatly appreciate your changing it to something more appropriate to youself & your good guy claims which your avator doesn't reflect. Not that mine speaks to all of me either & I've thought of changing it myself. Perhaps a photo of my real self instead? This is however true about your victim/victimizer idea. I shall think on that. However, I no longer think of myself as a victim because I left mine & my kids' victimizers & defended myself & them in legal battles. Perhaps some of my posts don't show that side of me. I hope my avatar does though. 7. True also about the definitions. So far in none of my posts have I defined you personally that I'm aware of. Nor have I defined ALL men & boys as being victimizers. Only SOME. Perhaps this one based on what you replied to me is the only one so far, if defining you or myself could be included herein. However I still maintain my cautiousness about everyone, including family members & close friends in all my dealings with people. I would never go out alone & meet a strange man without taking extra precautions first nor would I do it at all if I had the slightest bad feelings about his intentions. I also do admit to felling cautious & a little nervouse about having repair men come to my home where I live alone. Ditto for being in what I would consider potentially dangerous places or situations or even with strange or suspect women involved. So my trust level is definitely not what it was as a child or even a young adult. And probably very good I've changed for my own self-protection as well. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 04:27 PM QUOTE (CodeWarren @ Feb 25 2004, 02:39 PM) QUOTE Seduction I can understand but rape by a female against a male I cannot fathom at all. When speaking of rape you have to keep in mind that coersion of minors into having sex is also rape, albeit statutory rape. Women can rape under these circumstances. Why? The human mind is a fertile ground, and disorders and complexes and bad neural wiring lurk there. Perhaps you cannot fathom it because you are not them! One of the biggest fallacies of thinking in any area is presuming that others use reason or normal thought like yourself and other like people. But more to the point, Starflier, I really don't see how a woman could rape (in the strictest sense) a man. But the key word is "man". Coersion is a different story, but ONLY if the male is underage. The reason I say this is because if one allows coersion as a means of rape for anyone out of the range of statutory rape, that would make any guy trying pick up a girl in a bar (or vice versa!) subject to prosecution. Okay I looked in my dictionary which states, among other things, that rape is carnal knowledge of a woman by a man. It's also various forms of assault, not always sexual. Gee, by that definition I've been raped a hellova lot more times than I orginally thought. No more though if I can possibly help it. Someone told me in the last couple of years I couldn't fathom or outsmart my stepsons' or their attorney's criminal minds because I don't have one myself. Good thing criminal lawyers exist. But even they can help exhonerate the O.J. Simpsons of the world. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 04:39 PM QUOTE (MalaInSe @ Feb 25 2004, 01:58 PM) Pitchu, as I think you know, I am a state certified Domestic Violence Advocate. Sexual violence is extremely disgustingly common. I would say that you would be hardpressed to find a woman in this country who is not a survivor of sexual violence. My batterer's preferred method was sexual. I didn't know until I went through the training, that its considered the worst form of abuse. Its hard to discover when the woman does not seek help, because the marks are generally not visible, and the woman is embarrassed. I wish I were surprised, pitchu, but I'm not. Renee First of all, congratulations on your escape from your batterer & tricking him. May he never darken your door again or anyone else like him. Since you're a DVA which includes both genders as victims or predators, how many adult males do you know of who's complaints against women are similar to those against men? I've also seen/hard from many women in battered women's shelters & the DV consulting/training/educating scene. Never have I heard from or about any man victim tho. Though those centers or DV programs do have anger management classes or support for the men who want to attend those. All women & children as victims though, so far as I know. So I'm curious about your gender inclusive experiences related to adult male victims excluding gay males who have their own support groups & centers as do lesbian women. Posted by: CodeWarren Feb 25 2004, 04:48 PM QUOTE Okay I looked in my dictionary which states, among other things, that rape is carnal knowledge of a woman by a man. It's also various forms of assault, not always sexual. Gee, by that definition I've been raped a hellova lot more times than I orginally thought. No more though if I can possibly help it. I presumed we were discussing sexual rape. Unless you are joking. In which case, bye. And what I said is not the same as criminal lawyers' minds...I was pointing out your flaw in reasoning over whether a female can rape or not. Rhiannon pointed out some excellent examples of how a female can rape, drugs being the best. Other than that I'm not sure what the point of your post was... The reason I pointed all of what I said out in post is because it seemed as if (and evidently Erik thought this as well) that you were saying males cannot be raped. However this eliminates young male children from being raped, which I presumed you did not mean. I take it that you didn't mean that? Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 04:57 PM QUOTE (Rhiannon @ Feb 25 2004, 02:44 PM) Drugs. She drugs him, then rapes him. I know a lot of men who would never dream of lifting their hand to hurt a woman, even if it means defending himself from her. Good, kind men who have been physically abused for years because they are gentle and would never even consider hitting her back, or even restraining her even though he is physically stronger. I also know a lot of women who mentally abuse their partner, slowly but surely chiselling away his self-confidence until you are left with a shell of the man you started with. Starflier, I can appreciate you have personally been abused by many different men. Dont assume they are all like that. I know some men who are just amazing, gentle, kind and loving. I know some men who are evil visious bastards. I also know some women who would do anything for you, and some who's only pleasure is to see other people suffer. There are bad people in the world, no arguements there, but you cant class all men as bastards just as you cant class all women as perfect beings. Drugs, eh? Hmmm that's what my stepsons accused me of doing to their father, my mentally/physically ill husband. Drugging him for my financial gain which wasn't at all true but was certainly true of them. Had I not left him, no doubt they'd have accused me of murder sooner or later since he died of cancer much later. I know the same good, kind men. Not all men are abusers, heaven knows I'm aware of that. I never said ALL men are automatic abusers. I don't get why people keep putting words in my mouth like that. I have two beloved adult sons who were badly abused as youngsters & wouldn't dream of harming a fly & certainly never a woman or girl. Ditto many of my male relatives, including my brother & some male friends whom I also still love & trust but none of whom live nearby me anymore. I also know of many women who mentally, emotionally or otherwise have abused their male partners. Yes I'm familiar with those women who goad their partners into physically attacking their women. None of my women friends or female relatives have done so that I know of though. I never did with either of my husbands. Still it's a mighty weak male who would stoop to physical violence against his woman or kids for that reason even so. There's other ways to resolve those kinds of issues. Again with your assumption that I put ALL men into the same abuser category. I don't & never have. I don't like people putting words into my mouth or into my posts I never said or wrote. I never, ever wrote anything here at all saying all men are bastards or all women are good, kind souls. For goodness sake, read what I wrote & stop taking it out of context!!! Posted by: sexkitten Feb 25 2004, 05:10 PM QUOTE (Starflier @ Feb 25 2004, 02:24 PM) QUOTE But they've never, ever mentioned being raped by a female or knowing any male that ever was raped by a female. That's my point. See my other post questioning rape by a female against a male for the purpose of satisfying her sexual urges or getting orgasmic release at his expense & nonconsent by him via her brute force. A few questions... Is brute force needed for rape? Many of the stories here involve weapons - someone holding a gun to your head or a knife to your throat does not need to be physically stronger than you. A woman can wield a knife or a gun as easily as a man. Is being forced to engage in intimate acts through psychological coercion and emotional control any less "rape" than being forced through purely physical means? Isn't rape about power and control, and not necessarily about satisfying one's sexual urges or getting orgasmic release? **************** And, for the record, I do know at least one man who has been raped by a woman. It was several decades ago, he was an older teenager at the time, and the woman was his mother. I suspect she used psychological force, emotional manipulation, and her position of authority to accomplish it. Posted by: Starflier Feb 25 2004, 05:23 PM QUOTE (CodeWarren @ Feb 25 2004, 03:48 PM) QUOTE Okay I looked in my dictionary which states, among other things, that rape is carnal knowledge of a woman by a man. It's also various forms of assault, not always sexual. Gee, by that definition I've been raped a hellova lot more times than I orginally thought. No more though if I can possibly help it. 1. I presumed we were discussing sexual rape. Unless you are joking. In which case, bye. And what I said is not the same as criminal lawyers' minds...I was pointing out your flaw in reasoning over whether a female can rape or not. Rhiannon pointed out some excellent examples of how a female can rape, drugs being the best. Other than that I'm not sure what the point of your post was... The reason I pointed all of what I said out in post is because it seemed as if (and evidently Erik thought this as well) that you were saying males cannot be raped. However this eliminates young male children from being raped, which I presumed you did not mean. I take it that you didn't mean that? 1. Not joking, I was writing about enforced penetration by a man into a nonconsenting female or male of any age. But my dictionary states otherwise about rape: 1. To seize & take away by force, to plunder. 2. To commit rape upon; to ravish. 1. A seizing by force; robbery. 2. The illicit carnal knowledge of a woman without her consent. All these are considered rape according to my dictionary which is why I said I've been raped many more times than I thought as I thought & not only by sexual assault against my person constituted rape. Apparently that's only paritally what rape means by this definition. Notice the definition doesn't state a thing about "The illicit carnal knowledge of a MAN without HIS consent" at all. Tho the other previous definitions imply a woman can be the rapist or ravisher in other ways also. The use of drugs I can agree with as I stated in another post. What I meant was that in my earlier training & by this dictionary definition, rape by a female toward a male wouldn't be considered the same thing as a male penetrating a female with his phallus as a female doesn't have anything except her fingers, perhaps to rape a man with. But a man has those plus his phallus as well which is usually the part of the anatomy in question to satisfy his orgamic sexual urges with either a female or male of any age, including young boys. I'm just trying to get the definitions of what rape has meant to me all my life & the women in my life as well. So I'm just learning here, that's all. There's no debate here. Not on my part anyway. Just a clarification of issues. Posted by: Starfl

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)