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Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > The "Meaningful" Life

Posted by: Reach Dec 13 2004, 06:10 AM

What constitutes a "meaningful" life for you, at this time in your life, and from where have you drawn your conclusions?

To what extent does your past or present involvement with or influence by Christianity, be it personal or societal, come into play here?

Posted by: Mr. Neil Dec 13 2004, 06:28 AM

A meaningful life could be a life in which personal goals have been met to a point of satisfaction. It could also be a life which went beyond the satisfactory expectations of the one who lives it, such as a life full of pleasant surprises.

Basically, a meaningful life is a life of contentment.

Posted by: Reach Dec 13 2004, 06:40 AM

Is life more meaningful for you, as a non-Christian, because you are,

1.) Free to allow that definition to evolve as you grow?
2.) Compared to the most common Christian views on the eternality of life, how much difference does it make for you personally to not be troubled about eternal damnation?

Posted by: LloydDobler Dec 13 2004, 06:56 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 07:40 AM)

Is life more meaningful for you, as a non-Christian...

not really actually. I feel about the same levels of meaning, I just feel less guilty when I do things I want to do.

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 07:40 AM)

because you are,
1.) Free to allow that definition to evolve as you grow?

This freedom isn't that big a deal to me personally

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 07:40 AM)

2.) Compared to the most common Christian views on the eternality of life, how much difference does it make for you personally to not be troubled about eternal damnation?

It makes a gigantic difference. I weigh my decisions against my own moral compass instead of the arbitrary rules of an ancient cult.

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 07:10 AM)

What constitutes a "meaningful" life for you, at this time in your life, and from where have you drawn your conclusions?

I'm finding meaning in logic, learning to think more critically and also in helping those I know. Being a helpful person to others. I donated to a friend's AIDS benefit recently, something I never would have done as a christian.

Posted by: Tocis Dec 13 2004, 07:15 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 06:10 AM)

What constitutes a "meaningful" life for you, at this time in your life, and from where have you drawn your conclusions?

To be kind to others (unless they practically beg to be treated bad) and to hopefully leave the world a better place than it was before I came here.
And, of course, to be remembered well when I am gone. The only true form of immortality that a human can hope for.

QUOTE

To what extent does your past or present involvement with or influence by Christianity, be it personal or societal, come into play here?

My former christian faith never played a great part in my views of life. I think even if I never had contact of any kind with christianity, I'd have loved to do something for others too. And if my experience with the people I met in the German St. John's ambulance service are in any way representative, I'm not the only one at all who thinks like that. After all, most people in that (officially protestant) organization aren't christian, and our muslim platoon leader...

QUOTE

Is life more meaningful for you, as a non-Christian, because you are,

1.) Free to allow that definition to evolve as you grow?

I lack the comparison to fundyism of course, but I think the answer is yes.

QUOTE

2.) Compared to the most common Christian views on the eternality of life, how much difference does it make for you personally to not be troubled about eternal damnation?

Again, I have never been a fundie. Even in my German protestant past I figured that whatever Divine power may run the universe can't be ignorant of good will... so I thought that even if I never was a "good christian" by the book, the Divine wouldn't condemn me, because I tried to be just and friendly.
And now, of course, my view on life after death is completely different. According to the teachings of my Asatru faith, I may or may not end in Valhalla... if I do, I think there's nothing more noble and altruistic than be willing to fight for the future universe that will come after this one. The Einherjer (the warrior heroes in Valhalla) won't profit in any way from their participation in that battle of Ragnarök... as I see it, they simply do it because it must be done, and because there will be (hopefully) people after us, in the new universe, whose very existence depends on us.

Do I make sense?

Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 13 2004, 07:24 AM

For me a meaningful life is one in which I grow and mature as a person (new knowledge, increasing wisdom and compassion, etc.). And, it's one where I do what I can to help other people have the same positive existence.

In a nutshell, my life is meaningful if I become wiser and kinder and do something positive to give the same opportunities to as many other people as possible.

As for the source of this conclusion, I'd say it's probably based in genetics:
- I have an innate desire to survive, be happy and to grow to my potential.
- Because humans are social beings, I also have an innate desire for people I care about to survive, be happy and to grow to their potential.
- As a rational being, I also see the wisdom in expanding these same benefits of survival, happiness and personal growth to people everywhere - even ones I don't know - as the solution that is most likely to allow me and the people I care about to thrive. And the solution that is most likely to allow humans to live happy lives into the future.

Posted by: SmallStone Dec 13 2004, 09:04 AM

My perception of meaningfulness has been adequately described by TexasFreethinker and others above.

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 09:40 AM)

2.) Compared to the most common Christian views on the eternality of life, how much difference does it make for you personally to not be troubled about eternal damnation?

This is a big thing in my opinion, damnation or no. So many (all?) of the xtians I have known are content to let this life slip away in hopes of something better in the 'next life'. They aren't willing to go out on a limb to make things better in this life when they can rely on their invisible buddy to make things right. I hear things like 'the lord works in mysterious ways', or 'jesus will make this right upon his return' instead of things like 'this is fscked up, I'm going to fix it or die trying'. Of course, I'm generalizing. Nevertheless, this seems to be the predominant attitude among xtians I have known.

I can't attribute my current views entirely to my deconversion since I deconverted at a young age. I do however suspect that my views on the preciousness of life and of each moment with loved ones would be vastly different (for the worse) had I not deconverted.

Posted by: Reach Dec 13 2004, 09:29 AM

QUOTE (SmallStone @ Dec 13 2004, 09:04 AM)

Thanks for your thoughtful post, SS. TF also expressed much of what I would say. I think he hinted at, and I would underscore, as you did, the value of our relationships with others. I am very relational-oriented. I don't think it's entirely due to my being a woman although I won't deny that that has much to do with it.

A very foundational or core belief of mine is that people are most valuable, the most precious resource in the world. I believe people are worth investing in and a life well-lived, for me, is wrapped up in personal growth and loving people, and learning how to do a better job at that. Because people are precious to me, and I see life as just as valuable, for several years I have felt a sense of urgency, the thought that life is too great a treasure and much too short to be wasted. Like TF, I also believe we owe it to ourselves and to each other, and those in the future when we are gone, to have contributed something better to our world.

I also agree with many here that the doctrine of heaven and hell can tend to create a sense of apathy in us, not to mention procrastination, which we fall prey to too easily. In that way, those doctrines can cheapen this life.

Posted by: DoubleDee Dec 13 2004, 10:04 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 06:40 AM)

The shackles of Christianity have most definitely been broken from my mind and freed me to "evolve" as a human being. I take a lot less of life for granted now, for I believe we are temporal beings and life is meant to be shared and enjoyed. Beauty has been restored to my so called soul and I worship life metaphorically.

I never feared eternal damnation as a Christian for myself, though I did before becoming one. I don't believe in hell or eternal damnation of any kind so I am not troubled in the least. One big difference now is that I no longer worry about loved ones who are not "saved" going to hell.

ps. I like your new avatar Reach.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Dec 13 2004, 11:17 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 13 2004, 09:40 AM)

Is life more meaningful for you, as a non-Christian, because you are,

1.) Free to allow that definition to evolve as you grow?

Well, I certainly appreciate the fact that my life is more meaningful than it would be if I was a Christian, but that's not why I'm a non-Christian. If there's an eternal afterlife where we all go when we die, then I'm all for it. I'm just fairly certain that there is no such thing.

QUOTE (Reach)

2.) Compared to the most common Christian views on the eternality of life, how much difference does it make for you personally to not be troubled about eternal damnation?

Well, again that's not why I'm a non-Christian. If I even thought there was a Hell, then I would know that pretending that it doesn't exist would certainly not make it go away.
But it is rather nice to not have to think about that, and it has a wonderful impact on how we non-Christians view life. Sin and salvation are two concepts which are insulting to human nature.
Dan Barker came up with a good analogy. I don't have the exact quote, so I'll work around it.
Suppose you were on death row. What would be more comforting and meaningful, being pardoned (i.e., forgiven) for the crime (sin), or being released because you were never guilty of the crime in the first place?

Posted by: sexkitten Dec 13 2004, 04:19 PM

QUOTE

TF's said a lot of what I would say. I'd like to add growing in interpersonal relationship, self-understanding, and courage and experiences - as well as in knowledge, wisdom, and compassion.

Posted by: Ian Dec 13 2004, 10:57 PM

My goal in life : acquisition of wisdom and knowledge.

The only thing that christianity has contributed to it is just another subject to be studied and understoon. No different from any other religion, or cultural movement .

It has also worked as an impetus of not living an insular life of blissful ignorance .

Posted by: Zach Dec 14 2004, 06:43 AM

Meaning in my life comes from good relationships with good people.

Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 14 2004, 11:47 AM

I’ve taken some time to post in this thread because I wanted to think about it a bit. Those that have been around awhile know that I don’t think life has meaning because it is symbolic of nothing. Instead of just repeating that I wanted to get in deeper.

As the Buddha said, life is suffering. The question of meaning deals with what keeps me from extinguishing that suffering right now instead of waiting for it’s natural end. At the deepest level life has genetic taboos against that sort of thing. As Spinoza said in his Ethics, “Each thing, as far as it can by its own power, strives to persevere in its being” and “The striving by which each thing strives to persevere in its being is nothing but the actual essence of the thing.” Most of us continue simply because we must. Most of what our bodies are doing is practicing homeostasis. Furthermore, our mind on its highest plane, the place where we suppose meaning to be, is contributing to that practice. The mind will contribute to homeostasis by fair means or fowl, reason or unreason. It will usually do what it takes to make psychological adjustments, in spite of circumstance, in order to continue.

I could wax elegant on family, friends, purpose, and love, since those are the sorts of things that make continuing more comfortable. However, I don’t really need a reason to continue, as it is what the physical being in which “I” seem to dwell does by nature. What ever “I” is is a part of that physical being that strives to persevere. “I” is not something else.

Posted by: ravnostic Dec 14 2004, 02:33 PM

"Life cannot find reasons to sustain it, cannot be a source of decent mutual regard, unless each of us resolves to breathe such qualities into it"--Frank Herbert, from his book Heretics of Dune

I think the above view is that piece of the puzzle that explains a primal use for religion (in it's earliest appearances in humanity.)

And I do agree--this life has no meaning in and of itself, it's something culturally mandated (as opposed to the need for community or companionship, which I feel is biologically driven.)

For me, I find purpose in life by route of knowledge. I have many many interests--it's hard to find a topic that doesn't interest me, other than contact sports. And I'm an avid reader--to the point where many things learned in one field of knowledge are identifiably present in readings in different fields. The preknowledge I have going into a learning experience enriches that new experience. This is most evident in scientific readings, but also so when reading about religions (which touch on history, of course, but also on politics and science and so many other things.) It's very much like James Burke's 'Connections' series--all of us are connected via different channels.

What it really boils down to for me is that through knowledge, I've learned that the glass is neither half full nor half empty. It's completely full, all the time. Sometimes its just full of air--but even in our best vacuums on the planet--it's still full of something.

I think there are aspects of Christianity which tend toward calling for a higher purpose--a noble deed. But the same is true of all time-worn religions. However, it is Christianity which taught me the meanings of 'deceit'.

Life does have more meaning for me as a non-Christian, and it is exactly because I have the freedom to evolve, to consider and accept the new, to contemplate change and integrate it into my life. I'm 36 now, but I make a conscious effort to listen to the music that teenagers listen to. Some of it's crap, but some of it is quite good. I strive to find the good in the youth culture, as I don't want to become one of those old farts that says 'this new generation is going to hell'. One must adapt to changes, or get left behind (even if only culturally.)

Not to be troubled by eternal damnation? But I am troubled. I'd hate to die without amending my errors. Thus, I make an effort to amend things a.s.a.p. I've written lone heartfelt letters to my loved ones while they (and I) are alive--I wouldn't want to be one of those people who 'never got to say...'. Thus, the concern is there, but it isn't necessary for me to worry about God imposing such an afterlife. That's what I have a conscience for--and I've learned to listen to it (most times, and then I fall back on the third sentence of this paragraph.)

Life is so tragically short--and all the shorter for there not being an afterlife to look forward to. Like it has been said, this isn't a practice run--the cameras are rolling and the show is live, 24/7. So I like to make the most of it. Since I'm not a celebrity or a guru or someone who can change the masses, I settle for taking care of the upkeep in my little corner of the world. Doing something nice for someone (even better if I can do it anonomously.) Watching out for my neighbors. Giving a helping hand to a friend in need. And these build my relationships, and these relationships enrich my life.

But even without them, happiness is in the wind, you can feel it when it blows....

Posted by: Reach Dec 20 2004, 05:12 AM

QUOTE (ChefRanden @ Dec 14 2004, 11:47 AM)

As the Buddha said, life is suffering. The question of meaning deals with what keeps me from extinguishing that suffering right now instead of waiting for it’s natural end.

Chef, your post brought to mind this quote by Rosalia de Castro...

I see my path, but I don't know where it leads. Not knowing where I'm going is what inspires me to travel it.

Regarding the suffering we endure, I'm intrigued by the changes I see in myself and others who have learned or are learning to live as graciously as possible with chronic pain of one form or another, for example, and the growth potential that seems to be inherent in the embracing of pain. It seems that pain and suffering can be some of the best teachers throughout life.

Posted by: ficino Dec 20 2004, 07:53 AM

Considered and stimulating thoughts, everyone. I'm pretty much in agreement with most of what's been said.

Like others on here, I don't think in terms of a big, overarching "meaning" of life. I start with this quote from the movie, I think it was "Mon Oncle d'Amerique"
where a biologist said "le pourquoi de chaque etre est etre." Something like "the 'why' of each entity is to 'be.'" At this point in my life I take comfort from the thought that there is no meaning of life out there that I keep having to try to discover. Life is what it is now, and I can open myself to it and allow myself to be happy or I can be miserable in the way I respond to the suffering it imposes.

Another quote I like is from the emperor Marcus Aurelius in his "Meditations: "If there are things that trouble you, you can put them away, inasmuch as they have their being only in your own notion concerning them." I never quite manage to do this (e.g. someone who used to call me her "best friend" gradually drifted away, and I grieve over it and feel angry and don't really understand) but the idea helps.

I've been influenced a lot by ancient Greek philosophy. I don't recall ancient philosophers talking about "meaning of life." Meaning of propositions, yes, but not of "life." They do talk about philosophy as the "art of life" or "art of living." Most ancient Greek ethics agrees on the goal of life: happiness as an overall excellent quality of the life you live. They do talk a lot about the "supreme good" or "final good": the feature of life that happiness consists in. I like the Epicureans the best: the supreme good is pleasure. They tend to see friendship, knowledge, an emotional life on an even keel, as the qualities of life that confer pleasure. Sometimes this seems a little too laid-back and disengaged to me. Passions burn hot, too, and they're not all bad. I wouldn't want to do without Eros, for example!

So I guess I think more in terms of "best goals of life" rather than "meaning of life."

Happiness, everyone!

Posted by: nobleprolet Feb 2 2005, 10:04 AM

I don't really believe in a big meaning of life, only in a collection of a number of smaller meanings. There could be a big meaning, theoretically, but I usually distrust those. The smaller meanings which I value are friendship and love, virtues like justice, gentle humour, felt freedom and factual liberty, working, learning etc ... you know, all the good things. I find it negative to replace this huge number of meanings with a single big meaning, at least for myself. Other people might need such a meaning, but I don't want it. The only particular meaning which I often elevate above others is that I've promised myself to never give up on myself, to always choose life over "suicidal tendencies" (metaphor). I also want to have a family once and one or two kids. I want to get old. I want to see something from the world. I want to improve my reasoning. In a way I only want to fulfill my plans, for all these things I mentioned are concepts of myself, not necessarily desires and whims. Though I also realize that other people's plans are important too and that especially my friends and loved ones have a right to my participation in their life, my support and contribution.

I think I'm quite traditional in the meanings I see in life.

Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Feb 2 2005, 10:18 AM

I see that we more or less share a common essence. Maybe it is about having that Ahh Haaa wow feeling.

My own secret of life:
Is to propagate. Be responsible. Prepare and plan for the future. Evolve and adapt to change. Self-awareness, free thought, and your perseption of free-will. Learn, gain knowledge, understand, and improve. Dream of things and have ideals. Make goals and achieve them. Be happy and have fun. Love, be social, and have friends. Live it...

Nothing more to it.

Posted by: Knightley Feb 2 2005, 01:28 PM

I believe in a higher power/God, because of just experiences that I've had in my life where I've felt watched over. Now that I'm no longer a xtian, I feel free. I don't judge people. For example have you guys heard of that book I Kissed Dating Goodbye by Josh Harris?

Yes there is such a book! It's a real trip, let me tell you. Here's the link for it on Amazon.com if you want to check it out. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590521358/qid=1107379319/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0280227-4820605?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

So for a long time I thought that not dating was the best thing in the world and I would judge other people if they dated, or I would think to myself "hmm that person didn't meet their husband/wife the way that they were supposed to, the way that God intended."

Those thoughts are out of my mind now. I don't think like that anymore. I don't judge people anymore. I can do what I want to do, I don't feel guilty about listening to certain music, or watching certain movies. I don't feel like I have to restrict myself to christian only media. I don't feel that if I watch Titanic, that its wrong.

You know what feels good? Is that I can be who I am now. Whenever I used to express my fear that I couldnt' die for Jesus as a xtian, I was judged by the christians and you know its just human to have fears, doubts, and questions. What was so wrong with questioning whether or not I could die for Jesus?

Yet I was treated as if I was a whore by christians and people who claimed to be friends. I don't have that kind of stress in my life. I don't need to feel as if I'm afraid anymore. I have nothing to fear.

So I think we all define the meaning of life in different ways. For me it just means enjoying life and living to the fullest. It means have money, working, and being independent from anyone, it means having relationships with family and friends. It means going out with my boyfriend Luke and having a relationship with him.

It means not living within the boundaries of christianity.

Posted by: MrSpooky Feb 2 2005, 01:46 PM

A meaningful life for me is getting as much knowledge and wisdom as I can, doing what I can with it (research, writing, art, etc), and using it to enlighten others in the process.

Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 2 2005, 03:56 PM

QUOTE

What constitutes a "meaningful" life for you, at this time in your life, and from where have you drawn your conclusions?

I think happiness in improving the skills you have and taking time to learn new things once in a while is very satisfying. Enjoying friendships and making new acquaintances your friends is also a joy. Savoring the good things that just fall into your lap as well as the simple pleasures that are within easy reach is a rewarding skill to hone. Reaching for the stars regardless of past failures is very stimulating and meaningful.

I think we were designed to focus on human relationships and self improvement so as to enjoy more responsibilities, opportunities, and success.

Sometimes life seems meaningless but that passes. If we are involved and active in the here and now as well as working toward future goals life will have meaning most of the time. I know this from experience.

I never had any religious sense of a meaningful life because that stuff never made sense to me. We were designed to live and not to obsess on what comes after this life.
Wholeness comes from LIVING THIS LIFE and accepting life on life’s terms.
I don't believe we were put here to beg God for this or that and have God hold our widdle hands. When I set out to do something its kinda exhilarating knowing I might fail but if I have skill I will most likely succeed. That is the spice of life.

QUOTE

To what extent does your past or present involvement with or influence by Christianity, be it personal or societal, come into play here?

I was raised xian. My family and relatives are fundies. My relatives are Southern Baptist and I was raised Pentecostal. It sucks when you secretly hate and despise people who you also love.
I like diversity. I like people in general. I have always been attracted to people who are different. I feel dirty that I have to ignore or make excuses for some of my relatives and families er...world views. They are all bigots but aren’t all the same kind of bigots. And they like to use the bible as their authority in their narrowminded beliefs of people.
They all use their bibles like filthy little lawyers. They are like the pharisees that thier own bible talks about. I can't bring any of my friends or girlfriends around them. I can't breathe around my folks. Best to stay away but its hard to let go of family.

I blame the idea that the bible is the word of God for much of the shit people think and do.
I refuse to think that a Supreme Being would be so hateful ,petty, and so concerned about peoples perception of it , be'ins it never did reveal itself to every individual. Hearsay is not a revelation from God. Other theists have no answer to that fact. Of coarse I could be bullshitting myself when it comes to the existence of God.
Christianity has had zero influence on my perception of what is meaningful. All I ever had was my instincts, trial and error, and the experience that comes from those two in finding meaning in life.

Posted by: nobleprolet Feb 2 2005, 06:05 PM

I already made a reply to to this topic, but after reading the original topic again I think I forgot some things. I only saw "meaning of life" and that seemed enough. Sorry for not really replying, which I'll do now.

As I said in my previous post I'm viewing the pursuit of the usual good things as the meaning of life. When I think about it I don't see a special reason for that, it's only that like many other people I've come to value these good things, finding that each of them have their place. The actual conclusion to actively pursue such things came after my time with schizophrenia, specifically after it got compensated and I came back to relative normalcy. It was then when I shook off most of my baggage simply for the pursuit of those things which I supposed would give me pleasure. Pleasure in a great variety, I call any 'good' feeling pleasure. There is some danger of becoming a shallow man because of this, but I found that this is just an assumption. Pleasure and no-pleasure follow me anytime through my life, and generally I must say that only when I am pleased with my life am I able to find some enjoyment. Marcel Proust wrote much about that, considering the moments of enjoyment to be very important. I don't deny that suffering can also be beneficial to one's development, but tell that someone who's actually suffering severely, it sounds like a bad joke. And when you suffer and come to the point where you find it's being beneficial in this or that way then I wouldn't really call that suffering anymore, it's already something else.

I draw my conclusions about the meaning of life from experience, from realizing that all these so-called higher meanings aren't so high. There is this saying: "Not anything that glitters is gold". Usually these higher meanings are presented as a shining goal, a big example, but oftentimes when you look at it you can see it's no gold. Another thing which came into play here was my former idealism, an attitude where I considered ideas to be important than facts, the pursuit of ideals to be more important than adaption to actual reality.

"Idealism is like wanting to cook a soup with roses, because they smell better than cucumbers." Mencken

Religion without confident belief in God is just idealism, nothing else. By the way, that is one reason why some christians can't forsake their belief in hell; without this crude but effective hell-thing the christian religion is only pointless fantasy.

My past christian beliefs differed from that in that I was looking for solace instead of pleasure. I hoped to cure myself with God. And as that didn't work I was fearing that God had damned me. No wonder I was so fucked up. My being was simply incompatible with christianity, or with any other kind of real religion. It made me look for the wrong things in life instead of for the things which I really needed.

Last but not least I don't think that it's a big wonder that most people who ever lived found big meaning in having a family, a loving partner, kids, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, parents, grandparents. When I was younger I often looked down on my family, because none of them seemed to have any intellectual or artistic aspirations. But then I got ill, and my parents cared for me and helped me as best as they could. I don't know what would have become of me if I wouldn't have had them. I've also met some people in life who had very bad families, and that showed, they had a hard time finding happiness in life. So, all things considered, I think it's easy to see that family plays a big role and contributes much to having a good life. Just like friendship and romantic love.

Posted by: Reach Feb 3 2005, 04:51 AM

QUOTE (nobleprolet @ Feb 2 2005, 06:05 PM)

Pleasure and no-pleasure follow me anytime through my life, and generally I must say that only when I am pleased with my life am I able to find some enjoyment. Marcel Proust wrote much about that...

Nobleprolet, some favorite Marcel Proust quotes you may know...

The one thing more difficult than following a regimen is not imposing it on others.

The only paradise is paradise lost.

We don't receive wisdom; we must discover it for ourselves after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us.

Desire makes everything blossom; possession makes everything wither and fade.
- Marcel Proust, Les Plaisirs et les Jours (1896)

And my favorite quote of all:
The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.

I believe that life itself is an adventure and it is a meaningful and worthy pursuit to embrace the journey, not knowing for certain what the destination is, but enjoying the ride no less.

Thanks to everyone who has responded here.