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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 13 2004, 02:16 PM |
| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > The Final Reason Posted by: Lokmer Feb 1 2004, 05:42 PM Recently there was a big row over the proposed plans for the Mars mission, with many of you here (and elsewhere) complaining that we have no business spending millions on space research and frivolous exploration when we have starving people here, people without health care here, and pointed out that going to other worlds won't fix the population problem. Now, I am no fan of Bush, and as much as I love the space program I have no confidence in his ability to inspire and lead in this area or any other. The things above are real problems, but dealing with them at the expense of space exploration is terribly short-sighted, myopic, and unwise. Because there is a reason why all of that is, in the long run, unimportant when stacked against space travel. One reason only. I quote from J. Michael Straczynski: "Ask 10 different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get 10 different answers. But there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morabuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes. And all of this.. all of this was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." -Lokmer Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 05:53 PM Here here Lokmer and Straczynski. Xpen Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 1 2004, 06:08 PM Lokmer, I don't know much about destiny. If we are to survive as a species, we need to divirsify, and quickly. We need to find other inhabitable planets and colonize them. Otherwise, the first plague, comet, nasty sun spot or what ever that comes along finishes us off. Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 06:12 PM I guess the reality is that most people in their day to day lives don't think about the big picture of species survival. I know that I don't unless I really just sit down and think about it. You know, the gecks who are really concerned about the destiny of a whole group more than little issues (in the BIG scheme of things) are usually considered eccentric. Somebody's got to do it. Xpen Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 1 2004, 07:10 PM While I do realize there are other problems here on Earth that need to be addressed, the dreamer in me will never be silenced. I don't care what it takes, I think humanity will someday make it to the distant stars of our galaxy and possibly beyond. I agree with Erik, we need to colonize extra-terrestrially. Wether we find other habitable planets or we devise ways to make some normally uninhabitable planets habitable, the fact remains. Speaking of big-picture thinkers and eccentrics.... To paraphrase a line from Pirates Of The Caribbean: QUOTE "This is either madness--or brilliance." "It's amazing how often those two brush shoulders." You find me a genius who's not eccentric in some way, and I'll either find you a liar, a con-man, or a totally speechless me. Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 07:52 PM QUOTE You find me a genius who's not eccentric in some way, and I'll either find you a liar, a con-man, or a totally speechless me. Damn Woody, that was good. Xpen Posted by: Doug2 Feb 1 2004, 08:21 PM Oh how I love the thought of space travel. I agree that we need to colonize other planets, but I want to add one thought. There are people alive today that will die before that happens. They are living in squalid conditions, in pain, starving, under oppression and lacking freedom. What about wasting their life? Aren't they worth just as much as any other person? What good is all our knowledge, all our history, if we have to throw away our people to do it. Don't people alive today deserve to be treated well? Was their pain lessened by going to another planet 500 years from now? Is there life worth less than those living in the future? We need balance. Technology is important and it helps us learn to use our environment in a beneficial way, but if all it does is fuels more progress without helping those that are actually alive, then it is wasted. It is a lie to think we will ever reach perfection, and there will be some end where we can finally settled down and be safe and worry about those in need. Posted by: pitchu Feb 1 2004, 09:21 PM Doug2, I'm in complete agreement. The human species is a concept. A cold hungry homeless family of five can be touched. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 1 2004, 09:39 PM Maybe while we humans are busy ignoring each other and building the space station some high velocity comet will come and make all of this entirely irrelavent. Posted by: Lokmer Feb 1 2004, 10:21 PM I didn't mean to come across as a cold-hearted bastard who cares nothing for the suffering of the downtrodden. Far from it. But it is in the nature of Americans to be one-issue people. In the case of those who cry out against space spending, they are the welfare-issue people. Now, social welfare is important, and I happen to believe (despite my libertarian leanings) that a society is responsible towards those who fall beneath its wheels. But the nature of the single-issue mind is to oppose anything that doesn't advance one's narrow adgenda - there is no room for compromise, or for a win-win, or for recognizing other goals as important. When it comes to space travel, the issue is very important, as I've argued above. That does not mean that poverty and suffering are not, or that we should ignore one to support the other - that's childish thinking in the zero-sum paradigm. Adults should know better (and many do, but are silent about it). I firmly believe that we must go to the stars. If we don't, all of this will have been in vain - all the blood and suffering, all the concertos and civilizations, all the gods and monsters and saviors, the vast opera that is humanity will not have meant a damn thing. This end is something we have the power to prevent - or at least to postpone for a few million or billion years more. I also firmly believe that we can and should make the social welfare system work as well as it can. I'm not a fan of welfare because it can and does create dependency, but it is a necessary piece of a society as vast and complex as ours. And, seeing as how it's necessary, it damn well ought to be done efficiently, effectively, and in a way that encourages people to treat it as a safety net rather than a waterbed (the system right now punishes recipients who make just enough money to starve on and punishes saving and investment - it should do exactly the opposite!). The welfare system we have in this country has been purposefully broken by those who are idealogically opposed to it, and those who helped set it up refuse to fix it because as long as it's broken they have a powerful election issue. Life is not a zero-sum game. And we must - MUST - go to the stars. -Lokmer Posted by: Doug2 Feb 1 2004, 10:43 PM I want us to find intelligent life outside our solar system. I think that will change the perspective of a lot of humans. I hope that we can speak with them, but not have the ability to travel to them for years later. If we can make physical contact too soon, there will be wars and missionaries. As another stream of thought I place on your screen, doesn't someone living their life in pleasure make it worth it? How many generations must life after them before their life is justified? Surely we should strive for a prosperous future and not be selfish, but I don't think that alone is what makes our opera beneficial. Must an opera be record for it to be grand? Well only for it to be grand enough so the future can enjoy it. On the other hand, I applaud those that devote their lifes to further science, humanity, peace, and those that risk their lifes for others. These make earth a better place now and in the future. Posted by: Doug2 Feb 1 2004, 10:48 PM I have a dream that some day, all people will be free and rich, and smart enough to be scientists. We can all be explorers, and learners, communicators, in our vast universe and no longer will anyone rely on superstition. Posted by: Tocis Feb 2 2004, 02:52 AM QUOTE (Lokmer @ Feb 1 2004, 05:42 PM) "Ask 10 different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get 10 different answers. But there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morabuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes. And all of this.. all of this was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Ah, Commander Sinclair, Babylon 5 Season 1. Which episode was it again? Posted by: Redshift Feb 2 2004, 04:34 AM I agree that deep space exploration/colonization is exciting and that it will no doubt be ever so useful one day. But survival of the species as a compelling justification for such expedience? Come on. If that were truly an imperative, then it still makes more sense to focus on solving our immediate problems and leave the loftier long term survival strategies to descendants who may otherwise not exist. The Sun's got a couple of billion years left in her. Species is such a transient concept. Mammals have only been around for 250 million years. If you look at how much we have evolved and changed in the last million years alone, it's safe to say that our descendants in the distant future (if we have any) are not going to be human at all. They'll be digging up our fosilized bones and marveling at the fact that they have evolved from such primitive animals. If, IF our brains continue to get better, they'll be the ones terraforming Mars and perhaps even figuring out how to accomplish interstellar travel. It's going to take us monkeys hundreds, if not thousands of years and untold billions of dollars to perfect space travel. Why the urgency? We're still fighting over who's imaginary tribal gods are the best. We're still dependent on fossil fuels. We can't cure cancer, AIDS or even the common cold. We haven't even come up with an economic way of desalinating sea water. We're decimating our natural resources, not out of necessity, but rather small minded greed. I can't help but think that we're in imminent danger of destroying this world long before we've settled on any other. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 2 2004, 08:39 AM QUOTE (Tocis @ Feb 2 2004, 02:52 AM) QUOTE (Lokmer @ Feb 1 2004, 05:42 PM) "Ask 10 different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics, and you'll get 10 different answers. But there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years, or a thousand years, or a million years, eventually our sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe, and Lao-Tzu, and Einstein, and Morabuto, and Buddy Holly, and Aristophanes. And all of this.. all of this was for nothing. Unless we go to the stars." Ah, Commander Sinclair, Babylon 5 Season 1. Which episode was it again? Infection... the one with that thing from the alien artifact that possessed a visiting scientist and made him try to take over the station and kill anyone that wasn't pure whatever alien it was. It was a terrible episode, but it did have some really good lines... Posted by: Libertus Feb 2 2004, 09:15 AM QUOTE I didn't mean to come across as a cold-hearted bastard who cares nothing for the suffering of the downtrodden. Far from it. Lokmer, I think you hit the nail on the head. Correct me if I step on your toes, but it's an unfortunate piece of human nature that we need seemingly cold-hearted bastards. (I am not saying that you are one Lokmer.) Unfortunately, most people are not so well rounded as to meld compassion with their devotion to whatever they happen to be devoted to. Whether this is science, art, cooking, business or religion. People tend to be focused on what they focus on. Just like in politics, we NEED the xtian far right to balance out the xtreme left pseudo-communists. In practical living, we need those who could care less for the guy sleeping in the alley, because he has some important experiments to do. We do have plenty of people who throw some general compassion in there with their passions, and I really think that most of us here are like that (because we have trained ourselves to be after leaving the fold). Most of the world is not, however, and if they were all just passionate about being compassionate to others, then nothing would ever get done and we'd slide back into the stone age. It is a cold hard fact, but it is the reality of the beast which is the human race. We just have to deal with it, and try not to overly-judge those who are just doing what they do. Xpen Posted by: SyrioForel Feb 2 2004, 09:33 AM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 1 2004, 07:10 PM) Speaking of big-picture thinkers and eccentrics.... To paraphrase a line from Pirates Of The Caribbean: QUOTE "This is either madness--or brilliance." "It's amazing how often those two brush shoulders." You find me a genius who's not eccentric in some way, and I'll either find you a liar, a con-man, or a totally speechless me. The Romans said it thusly: "Numquam magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit." or: There has never been a great spirit without a touch of insanity. This is more useful, however, in daily life: "Da mihi sis crustum Etruscum cum omnibus in eo." I'll have a pizza with everything on it. ~D Posted by: pitchu Feb 2 2004, 09:41 AM QUOTE (Redshift @ Feb 2 2004, 04:34 AM) I agree that deep space exploration/colonization is exciting and that it will no doubt be ever so useful one day. Thanks, Redshift, for, imo, an excellent ethical elaboration. And as to the greedy bastards who've set up this unnecessary war between our fulfilling obligations to those currently living and the imperative to venture out... Lokmer, I propose we not wait for a level of scientific excellence that would offer an absolute guarantee of space survival. I say we can reap rewards in both spheres being discussed here by a planetary vote on who we'd all most like to send first. It's not a new idea to send (perceived) thugs and dregs to colonize new territories. Yep. Space exploration/colonization could be ever so useful one day sooner. Posted by: LordThor Feb 2 2004, 10:08 AM Space exploration is a vital part to all of the human race. We do not know what we will discover and invent in the process of exploring other planets. NASA creates new advances in technology all of the time in their quest to explore our solar system. The government's budget on the space program is very low comparted to other governmental programs. I do not believe that the money could be spent any better. Discoveries sometimes come from the most unexpected places. We could discover the cure for cancer or aids by going to other worlds, many human advancements occur by accident or by researching other seemingly unrelated ideas or subjects. The argument that we should be spending this money on more immediate concerns like starving, suffering people here is very close minded to our future. One could say ok, lets spend the money on feeding all the starving, homeless people in the US. Then, if we ever achieve this, which is highly unlikely, then we could say ok, now lets spend the money on space exploration. Then somebody would say, wait we can't do that, there are starving people in Africa, we need to take care of them first. So where does it end? There will always be suffering people in the world, and we try to do what we can, but halting scientific advancement for the sake of suffering people is absolutely wrong. What if our ancestors said the same thing? We may not have the things that we have today, hell, the Western world may have yet to be discovered and all of us in the US would be living in Europe somewhere. Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |