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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > The Devil (again) Posted by: Redshift Jan 9 2004, 12:48 PM The Bible hardly mentions the devil. His historical (mythological) origins are painfully clear. I'm baffled as to how it's possible that intelligent people still take this scary bedtime story seriously. Source www.sciencedaily.com Devil (Redirected from The Devil) The Devil is the name given to a supernatural entity who, in most Western religions, is the central embodiment of evil. This entity is also commonly referred to by a variety of names, including Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles and Beelzebub. In classic demonology, however, each of these alternate names refers to a specific supernatural entity, and there is significant disagreement as to whether any of these specific entities is actually evil. The word devil is derived from the Greek word diabolos ("to slander"), and the term devil can refer to a lesser demon in the hierarchy of Hell. At the same time, the term devil is also derived from the same Indo-European root word for deva, which roughly translates as "angel." The notion of a central supernatural embodiment of evil, as well as the notion of angels, first arose in Western monotheism when Judaism came into contact with the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism. Unlike classical monotheism, Zoroastrianism features two gods, one good and one evil, locked in a cosmic struggle where both are more or less evenly matched and the outcome is uncertain. Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord"), also known as Ohrmazd, is the god of light, and Ahriman ("Evil Spirit"), also known as Angra Mainyu, is the god of darkness. In a final battle between the supernatural forces of good and evil, human souls will be judged in a fiery ordeal, and only the good will survive this ordeal. Accordingly, humans are urged to align themselves with the god of light and his angels and to shun the god of darkness and his demons. Christianity views Satan as a being created by God, whereas the evil god of Zoroastrianism is not a created being. Table of contents 1 The Devil in Judaism 2 Names of the Devil 2.1 The Original Names 2.2 The Division of an Entity in Three 2.3 In Christian Tradition 2.4 In role-playing games 2.5 In other games 3 See Also The Devil in Judaism In Hebrew, the Devil is called "Satan". The Hebrew biblic word "satan" means an adversary or an obstacle. The word "satan" in the meaning of human adversary appears in Kings A, Chapter 11, where God makes Hadad the Edomite an adversary to King Solomon. In the book of Job (Iyov), Satan appears as an angel submitted to God. One might say that he rather manipulates God into letting him test Job and put Job's faith on trial. Satan says that Job is faithful to God only because he has good lives with good family and lot of property. God permits Satan to cast disasters and plagues upon Job. First, Satan destroys Job's property, then his family, and finally he strikes Job himself and causes him to become ill. In later Jewish mythology, Satan tries to rebel against God but the rebellion fails and God send him to exile into hell (concept that didn't exists in Judaism and was embraced from Christianity). Names of the Devil The Original Names Originally no proper name was attributed to the Devil but only one epithet, satan, (adversary), which, capitalised, remained as his proper name: Satan. So he is mentioned in the Old and New Testament. Zech. 3:1--"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him." 1 Peter 5:8--"Your adversary the devil." Luke 10:18. Numbers 22:22. By adversary is meant one who takes a stand against another. Satan is the adversary of both God and man. But in the New Testament, in Matthew 10:25 and 12:24, Mark 3:22, and openly in Luke 11:18-19 Satan is compared with Beelzebub, originally a Semitic deity called Baal-zebul, one of the Baals. Since that moment Beelzebub became another name for Satan. In John 12:31 and 14:30 Satan is called Prince of this World, and this became a nickname for him. The Devil, diabolos: This name is ascribed to Satan 33 times at least in the New Testament, and indicates an accuser or slanderer (Rev. 12:9). He slanders God to man (Gen. 3:1-7), and man to God (Job 1:9; 2-4). Matt. 13:39--"The enemy . . . . is the devil." John 8:44--"Ye are of your father the devil." The wicked one: Matt. 13:19--"Then cometh the wicked one." Matt. 6:13; 1 John 5:19. This title suggests that Satan is not only wicked himself, but is also the source of all wickedness in the world. The tempter: Matt. 4:3--"And when the tempter came to him." See Gen. 3:1-6. None escape his temptations. He is continually soliciting men to sin. The Beast (Book of Revelation 13:1-18) is a term John used to refer to a "puppet" of the dragon's (Satan), and a term supposedly used by John in Revelation 17:3-17 to design the Devil (or the Antichrist); this name appears several times in the book of Revelation, and it became another of his nicknames. Dragon is another epithet for the Devil, as well as The Old Serpent (Revelation 12:9). Dragon is used several times in the same book. In Spanish, the Devil has always been referred to as El Diablo or Satanas. El Diablo is also a derivate of Diabolos. The Division of an Entity in Three Later, when the Bible was translated into Latin (the Vulgate), appeared the name Lucifer as a translation of Morning Star (the planet Venus), in Isaiah 14:12. But if we take only this allusion we are out of context, because Isaiah 14:1-23 speaks about Babylon and its king, being the Morning Star the Babylonian king, of godly status, being his symbolic divine parents Bel and Ishtar (associated with the planet Venus); this can be seen by reading any Babylonian cuneiform text, but by the time of the translation of the Bible and the subsequent biblical exegesis that took the text as a comparison with the Devil these cuneiform clay tablets and their translation were not available, and the mythology and customs the Israelites had learnt during their captivity in Babylon had been forgotten. Early Christian tradition interpreted the word and the entire paragraph referring to Satan, his fell of grace, and the moment he was thrown from Heaven, identifying this name with him, and Lucifer became another name for Satan; due to the Christian dogma and popular tradition, so it will remain. But this was not enough. Christian demonologists later turned Satan, Lucifer, and Beelzebub into different entities, with a different rank in the hellish hierarchy. According to who wrote on them, Lucifer or Satan used to be the chief of all demons. Why? There is no answer; nobody gave an explanation for this. Perhaps the fact that many ignorant people (as instructions was uncommon for most population) was interrogated during the witch trials collaborated, because one person could answer "my master is Lucifer", another "I made a pact with Satan", etc., not having these people knowledge of the different names of the Devil, and being sometimes suggested the name to them by the interrogator, depending on how he called the Devil in that moment. But this cannot explain that demonologists that supposedly had this knowledge (many of them were priests, with important studies) continued using these names for different entities coexisting in the same Hell. It could also be supposed that this might have been an attempt to establish a hellish trinity with the same person, as the Christian Trinity has three persons in one with Father, Son and Holy Ghost. In Christian Tradition However, in Christian tradition but not in Christian demonology, Satan, Lucifer and Beelzebub mean "the Devil", and Prince of this World, The Beast and Dragon (and rarely Serpent or The Old Serpent) use to be elliptic forms to refer to him. The Enemy, The Evil One and The Tempter are also elliptic forms to name the Devil. Christian tradition has many nicknames for Satan, but not demonology. It must be noted that Mephistopheles is used by some people to refer to the Devil, but it is a mere folkloric custom, and has nothing to do with Christian demonology and Christian tradition. Prince of Darkness and Lord of Darkness are also folkloric names, although Lord of Darkness tends to be incorporated to Christian tradition. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jan 10 2004, 07:00 PM The Devil is very real, and demons are very real. I've experienced demonic activity in my own life and in others. Posted by: chefranden Jan 10 2004, 07:28 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 10 2004, 09:00 PM) The Devil is very real, and demons are very real. I've experienced demonic activity in my own life and in others. Oh, boy here we have a true believer in Fundies get almost as upset when you don't believe in Satan, as when you don't believe in Joshua. Make sure you are taking your meds, and then tell us about it, Jimbo. Posted by: Bruce Jan 10 2004, 07:52 PM Jimbo, Son of Sam also believed his dog manipulated him psychically to commit murders. Your interpretation of demons and demonic activities are simply a misplaced, self-diagnosis of psychological and/or physiological disorders. Posted by: Dhampir Jan 10 2004, 09:05 PM Don't forget the book of Enoch, OT revelation of hell, that never made it into the bible. I'm sure some of the early xtians made use of it. Posted by: pitchu Jan 10 2004, 09:59 PM Redshift, I don't know anything about the level of credibility of Science Daily as a source, but the breakdown it gives of the involvement of Judaism in a concept of the devil is distinctly different from the conclusions of Elaine Pagels (Professor of Religion at Princeton, Doctorate from Harvard, taught at Barnard College and Columbia University, author of "The Johannine Gospel in Gnostic Exegesis", "The Gnostic Paul", "Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters", "Adam, Eve, and the Serpent", and "The Gnostic Gospels" which won The National Book Critics Circle Award and the National Book award.) Rather, she explains satan not as a particular entity to the Jews, but a word, arising from other words in the Hebrew language, for the concept of that which interrupts a human path or course (manifestations of this interruptive force, sometimes in the form of demons, can be a bad influence if the human course is good, and conversely, a good influence if the human course is bad). But at no time did Jews concretize the Devil, as xians did, into god's adversary. In "The Origin of Satan" (p.130) she writes: "Although many pagans had come to believe that all the powers of the universe are ultimately one, only Jews and Christians worshipped a single god and denounced all others as evil demons. Only Christians divided the supernatural world into two opposing camps, the one true God against swarms of demons; and none but Christians preached - and practiced - division on earth." Consequently, I have no idea what your source means when it claims the following: QUOTE: The notion of a central supernatural embodiment of evil, as well as the notion of angels, first arose in Western monotheism when Judaism came into contact with the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism (bolding mine) Posted by: TruthWarrior Jan 10 2004, 10:58 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 10 2004, 11:00 PM) The Devil is very real, and demons are very real. I've experienced demonic activity in my own life and in others. I've witnessesed classic "demonic" activity too, exorcist style. The question is though, is it demons or just people's diseased minds? Or both? And what do you do about it? I'll try to retell my experience so everyone can judge for their ownselves. Of course it probably won't change anyone's minds, but everyone likes a good demon story! I became Christian in my teen years, in high school, as so many misguided youths do. So my friends and I ran the gambit of all the different youth groups in all the different types of churches. The first one was pentacostal in an Assembly of God church and sometimes others (they're all the same!). The next a Catholic Church, we were pentacostal, but it was a nice non-denominational youth group. The last was in a boring old protestant United Methodist church. Blah, blah...anyway... My story takes place in the Catholic Church youth group. I asked a girl in the group out during a retreat we were on. It was the first time I asked anyone out. I was all to shy up till that point, when "God" gave me the strength to do it. So of course I was all happy thinking this was a match made in heaven. That was until I found out she had an eating disorder (http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/campaigns/cminds/anorexia.htm). Her friend also had the same thing but tended to be worse off, eventually ending up the hospital and rehab. They were both college age in their 20's, I must have been 18 at the time. Other then that everything seemed all well and good. In the youth group we'd all sit in a circle and talk about or lives and as for prayer. It was after this that we would have a quiet time to pray that all hell would break out. My ex-girlfriend and/or her friend would start screaming and writhing on the floor across the room from each other. We would have to hold their hands down so they didn't scratch themselves. Sometimes they'd end up scratching whoever tried to do this though. They did not seem to be aware of what they were doing. Their eyes would be closed, so it was like they were having a bad dream, night terrors or whatever. Their screams were more like a long wail, I don't remember any cursing or talking from them, though there could have been. It could last for hours and seemed to happen only at times of prayer or quite meditation. I remember the youth group leaders even brought out a huge silver bowl of holy water from backstage of the church! This had no effect whatsoever, other then getting us all wet. Prayer, aloud or in silence seemed to have no effect either. With my friends and I the typical pentacostals, and our catholic friends, we must have prayed every type of prayer imaginable! None worked, or at least not right away, eventually it seemed would die out on it's own, like a siezure would. They would have no memory of the event, as if they had been alseep. Of course they, and we were all naturally tired and drained mentally, physically and spiritually. We could never be sure what it all was. It was something in their heads at least. But was it mental or spiritual? My pentacostal friends actually thought it was only mental, since no prayer could stop it. Some thought it spiritual or both. Another blind woman in our group also "fell in the spirit" from time to time, but that was mild, with no screaming and scratching. It all reminded me of the accounts of the Salem witch trails were all the girls would simultaneously be "possessed" and do simular things. This didn't seem so fake though. It was more of The Exorsist type, except with no pea soup puking or head-spinning. If anyone get a chance to watch any documentory on demon possession you'll get a chance to see it, though it's not the same as experiencing it. However, those tend to involve a verbal communication with the demon possessed and the exorcist. In those cases it seems hypnosis is the cause. This wasn't the case with us. The church youth leaders did not expect or desire an demonic spirits to battle, nor had any more experience or knowledge then the rest of us. Eventually that girlfriend of mine became my ex as did the religion. I heard she got married, had a baby and moved down south, so I assume she got over it. Her friend went on to rehab, and I think got better. The two weren't there in the youth group reunion and I didn't ask of them, as it seemed everyone knew as much as I did. It was only much later that I saw a documentory on TV that resembled my situation. A human rights show on female sex slaves somewhere in the Philippines I think. A Irish Catholic priest worked with the local law enforcement to nab the criminals. He would then take care of the girls in his mission. Anyway, they had this one therapy session with the girls all in a circle. The girls were allowed to let their emotions go, since they were all tramatized by the rapes. They would thrash and wail for hours, the same as the girls in my youth group did, getting all their emotions out. So I figured it was all the same. I do know that my ex-girlfriend didn't have the greatest life in any sense. Her obese mother and evil obese stepsisters would not treat her kindly at all and they were all poor. She was alot like Cinderella. Now wouldn't also Cinderella be driven to mental disorders if she never got that fairy tale dream life? I tried my best to help, but there is little anything to do but comfort and gently nuture those tortured souls back to life. Awaiting sudden fairy tale endings to happen and praying to the Fairy Godmother does nothing in this world. True a faith, without works is quite dead. That is the danger of faith, when it prevents or encourages people not to work for good, as it so commonly does. Posted by: Tocis Jan 11 2004, 04:49 AM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 10 2004, 07:00 PM) The Devil is very real, and demons are very real. I've experienced demonic activity in my own life and in others. Well, if you know for sure, please tell me where to meet him and his servants. If I see them with my own eyes, maybe, maybe I would start considering that literal christianity would not be entirely wrong. I doubt, though, that you can present any evidence. My guess is that you're just another fundie hatemonger who can't stand seeing that your best scarecrow is declared useless by us. Posted by: Redshift Jan 11 2004, 05:24 AM QUOTE I don't know anything about the level of credibility of Science Daily as a source I didn't really read much of it and I can't vouch for the credibility of the source either. It was a bit of gung-ho late night cut and paste job to get a debate going. QUOTE Consequently, I have no idea what your source means when it claims the following: QUOTE The notion of a central supernatural embodiment of evil, as well as the notion of angels, first arose in Western monotheism when Judaism came into contact with the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism From what I've read, the Jews took a lot Persian Zoroastrian ideas back to Israel after the Babylonian exile. Much of the Tanakh, as we know it today was written (redacted) during this exile and there are plenty of striking parallels which we can discuss in more detail if you like. It is widely acknowledged that the story of Job, in which the Devil plays a prominent role, is Babylonian in origin and that some Jewish sects began to see the Devil as a specific being. The Essenes, who produced John the Baptist, were one such sect. They predate Christianity by 150 years and were quite obsessed with apocalyptic eschatology as well as the Babylonian idea of a constant struggle between light and darkness. In the light of what we know of John's role in the life of Jesus, its difficult to ignore the connection with Christianity. I find all of this utterly fascinating. I have spoken to some Jewish people about some of these claims and, obviously, some don't take very kindly to these assertions of religious cross-pollination. Posted by: Redshift Jan 11 2004, 05:34 AM In support of my argument, I offer the following quotes: From the Essene "Manual of Discipline" QUOTE "He (God) has created man to govern the world, and has appointed for him two spirits in which to walk until the time of His visitation: the spirits of truth and injustice. Those born of truth spring from a fountain of light, but those born of injustice spring from a source of darkness. All the children of righteousness are ruled by the Prince of Light and walk in the ways of light, but all the children of injustice are ruled by the Angel of Darkness and walk in the ways of darkness." (1QS3, 18-22.) (Vermes, p. 73) From the New Testament. QUOTE 1 John 3:7-10 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Posted by: Redshift Jan 11 2004, 05:42 AM Here is a bit of background on the Zoroastrian "Devil": QUOTE Ahriman, the principle of evil in Persian mythology, was personified as Angra Mainya, "the destructive spirit," who introduced death into the world. He led the forces of evil against the host of Spenta Mainya, "the holy spirit," who assisted Ahura Mazdah, "the wise lord" and final victor in the cosmic war. "In the beginning," said Zoroaster (see Zoroastrianism), "the twin spirits were known as the one good and the other evil, in thought, word, and deed. Between them the wise chose wisely, not so the fools. And when these spirits met they established life and death so that in the end the followers of deceit should meet with the worst existence, but the followers of truth with the wise lord." source: http://www.themystica.org/mythical-folk/articles/ahriman.html Posted by: fortunehooks Jan 11 2004, 06:13 AM truthwarrior: that's some story man, i'm happy the girls to your knowledge are doing better. i personally have never seen any of the demon possession. redshift: great information about the different derived monikers of my favorite deity satan. Posted by: JimmyDtD Jan 14 2004, 09:38 PM Anyone who want to see demons manifesting in people and being cast out can visit the Hegewisch Baptist Church, Highland Indiana. As a matter of fact, they will be having a deliverance conference on January 29 to Feb, 2, with deliverance sessions at 8:30 pm on the 29th, 30th and 7 PM on the 31st. You can call 219 838 9410 for more information, or visit their website at http://www.hbcdelivers.org. I visited there in 1990, and saw many demons speaking through people as well as other demonic manifestations. I have cast demons out of a few folks, including children. One of the most amazing insights into the spirit world is to hear how demons hate Christians and Christ. It is interesting, because if Christ wasn't real, they would not need to hate and fear him, but they do. Demonic activity is all around you, but you ignore it, or explain it away in terms of psychology. People can be loaded with demons, and not even know it. Posted by: BillJ Jan 14 2004, 09:46 PM http://www.schizophrenia.com Seek help Jimmy!!! Posted by: pitchu Jan 14 2004, 10:35 PM Redshift, Thanks for all the follow-ups on my post. I've obviously got to look into this further. The one point I was eager to make was that most sources I know about "credit" xianity with devil personification, establishment of devil vs. god in a battle to reign over souls on earth, and I for one, sure don't want to minimize xian inventiveness. Can't speak for jews, but I can tell you my jewish husband has no problem with cross-pollination of ancient religious ideas and feels this in no way makes him less jewish. The idea of "purity" in almost anything is such hogwash, anyway. Even Ivory Soap is only 99 and 44 one-hundreths per cent pure, right? Jimmy, What an unconscionable thing to do to little children. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 14 2004, 10:54 PM QUOTE (Redshift @ Jan 9 2004, 03:48 PM) In later Jewish mythology, Satan tries to rebel against God but the rebellion fails and God send him to exile into hell (concept that didn't exists in Judaism and was embraced from Christianity). A what? Satan tries to rebel to get exiled to a place which was non-existant? Satan is God's prosecutor. His purpose is to oversee hell (again, not the hell you imagine, the soul cleanser hell, not the burn forever till the end of time hell). Relation between the jewish satan and jesus: They both provide an environment where they remove any wrong you have done. So is Jesus really Satan in disguise? *bum bum bum* Posted by: Tocis Jan 14 2004, 11:38 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 14 2004, 09:38 PM) I visited there in 1990, and saw many demons speaking through people as well as other demonic manifestations. Demonic activity is all around you, but you ignore it, or explain it away in terms of psychology. People can be loaded with demons, and not even know it. Those who desperately want to see eventually will see. I have yet to hear from one of you fanatics what you think makes your demonic possession different from a plain mental disorder. Or abuse of certain substances. Once a year I see at least two to three people trembling, kicking, punching, screaming from the top of their lungs stuff like "SATAN! SATAAAAAN!"... and guess what? After they've been properly sedated by our doc and slept for some time they're okay again and confess that they really shouldn't have taken those funny colored pills. Happens every year to a few of the tens of thousands of visitors of the yearly "M'Era Luna" gothic festival. Our brain is a fascinating apparatus. It can adapt to a great number of situations. Unfortunately, if you desire a particular delusion for long enough and hard enough, it will even produce this one. Get help boy. Posted by: Redshift Jan 14 2004, 11:58 PM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 15 2004, 08:54 AM) QUOTE (Redshift @ Jan 9 2004, 03:48 PM) In later Jewish mythology, Satan tries to rebel against God but the rebellion fails and God send him to exile into hell (concept that didn't exists in Judaism and was embraced from Christianity). A what? Satan tries to rebel to get exiled to a place which was non-existant? Yeah that article is badly written and vague. My bad for not properly reading through it before posting it. I think the author is referring to certain apocalypse-minded sects that arose within Judaism in the centuries preceding Xianity. I mentioned the Essenes - John the Baptist was one - in an earlier post. Posted by: Dhampir Jan 15 2004, 10:19 AM Hell was an established concept in the Hebrew world. There's all sorts of apochyphal texts that talk about it. One states that A Satan was ordered to pay homage to Adam, and was thrown out of heaven for his refusal. I say A Satan, 'cause even in Hebrew mythology, there are myriad 'satans' to speak of. There's that one, the one that tested Job, and others. Then, there's the book of Enoch, which is probably where a lot of the authors of the NT got their ideas about hell from. it is the first text to describe an eternal torture chamber for the evil ones, though if I'm not mistaken, it doesn't say much about the devil. Posted by: Lokmer Jan 15 2004, 11:05 AM Zoroastrian fingerprints are all over 3rd-1st century Judaism, from the books of Daniel and Job (the latter of which was a Zoroastrian morality play originally) to the aggregation into the Jewish consciousness of the apocalyptic (A genere very old in Babylon but very new in Judaism after the captivity) to the very conceptions of angels and demons, which did not exist in Judaism before Babylon. Even the name of the sect that eventually became Rabinnic Judaism as we know it today took its name from the Zoroastian priesthood. Zoroastrian divines were known as "Parisis", a word pronounced "Pareesees", a school of morall/theological tutelage and thought that we know as Pharisees from the Gospels (although Philo and Josephus, being actual Pharisees, are far better indicators of this school of Judaism than are the descriptions in the Gospels. After the fall of the temple, the Pharisees were the only surviving major party, and in the absence of the temple they formed Rabbinic Judaism, the only major form we know of today. (sources: Encyclopedia Brittanica Macropedia: Zoroastrianism; The Woman Who Laughed at God by Jonathan Kirsch; Occidental Mythology by Joseph Campbell; God, a Biography by Jack Miles). -Lokmer Posted by: JimmyDtD Jan 15 2004, 07:19 PM "Those who desperately want to see eventually will see. I have yet to hear from one of you fanatics what you think makes your demonic possession different from a plain mental disorder." To those who want to see a mental disorder, they will see a mental disorder instead of the simple explanation. Some things that make it different: 1. Person will speak with a voice other than his own. 2. Person will have knowledge of things he has never experienced 3. Person will have strength beyond his own physical strength. 4. Person's real personality will be surpressed while the demonic personality comes forward. Drug use can invite demonic infestation, and can expose demonic presences as a person's real personality is affected by the drugs, allowing demons to manifest. Deliverance for children is a good thing, not a bad thing. The gospels tell as story of Jesus helping a child who was thrown into the water and fire by demons. It is interesting the little images people choose to represent themselves here. Posted by: chefranden Jan 15 2004, 08:28 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 09:19 PM) It is interesting the little images people choose to represent themselves here. Really? How so? Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 15 2004, 08:34 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 10:19 PM) It is interesting the little images people choose to represent themselves here. It is interesting how you refuse to represent yourself with your own. Not that we have any trouble guessing what you are. Posted by: BillJ Jan 15 2004, 08:42 PM QUOTE To those who want to see a mental disorder, they will see a mental disorder instead of the simple explanation. Some things that make it different: 1. Person will speak with a voice other than his own. Did you know that a voice can be manipulated by a voice box under the will of the individual. I can do a good demonic voice, and I bet I could convince you that I am under demonic possession. QUOTE 2. Person will have knowledge of things he has never experienced How the fuck would you know? Can you read minds? I bet your arguement is that you were under demonic possession and therefore you had knowledge that you could never know. QUOTE 3. Person will have strength beyond his own physical strength. Since you are psychic you must of known the victims strength before their alleged demonic possession. QUOTE 4. Person's real personality will be surpressed while the demonic personality comes forward. This is called split personality disorder. QUOTE Drug use can invite demonic infestation, and can expose demonic presences as a person's real personality is affected by the drugs, allowing demons to manifest. Well guess what, everyone takes drugs whether legal or illegal. I guess you believe everyone is under demonic possession. I recommend you seek help before you start believing that a yellow moldy chunk of cheese is invading earth in the year 2020. QUOTE Deliverance for children is a good thing, not a bad thing. The gospels tell as story of Jesus helping a child who was thrown into the water and fire by demons. Fire and water don't mix dumbass!!! QUOTE It is interesting the little images people choose to represent themselves here. The images are there for entertainment and easier identification, they also make the forum more attractive unlike your posts. They are not there to represent us, our words and actions represent us. Posted by: chefranden Jan 15 2004, 08:49 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 09:19 PM) Drug use can invite demonic infestation, and can expose demonic presences as a person's real personality is affected by the drugs, allowing demons to manifest. Interesting. Any particular drugs, or any of them? Do you avoid coffee? Tea? Coke? Do you have wine for the eucharist? Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 15 2004, 08:51 PM QUOTE (BillJ @ Jan 15 2004, 11:42 PM) QUOTE 2. Person will have knowledge of things he has never experienced How the fuck would you know? Can you read minds? I bet your arguement is that you were under demonic possession and therefore you had knowledge that you could never know. I think he's refering to those weird situations where the brazillian woman was able to speak fluent greek, latin, spanish, etc. and never having even learned to read and write her own language. It's all a nicely orchastrated sham. Posted by: Tocis Jan 15 2004, 11:37 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 07:19 PM) To those who want to see a mental disorder, they will see a mental disorder instead of the simple explanation. Ah, really? Now tell me, which explanation is the simple one? 1. invisible, untouchable, incomprehensible, powerful and evil supernatural entities whose existence can never be confirmed do it or 2. the human mind/brain, already known to be prone to a number of strange malfunctions, does things like that because of another malfunction Your explanation is the more ludicrous one of the two. You believe in this bullcrap because it's part of a worldview that makes the world childishly simple to you. When you base your entire life on the dusty old book you (think you) are able to clearly divide everything into good or evil, nonewithstanding the fact that the world isn't that simple, and you can always blame the book for the things you have done because it told you to do so. Fanatic believers are cowards, afraid to take responsibility for their lifes. "I see the fear you have inside you can run but never hide I will hunt you down and tear you limb from limb! Nothing shall remain not your memory or name it will be as though you never ever lived!" (Manowar, "Hands of doom") Posted by: Tocis Jan 15 2004, 11:41 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 07:19 PM) It is interesting the little images people choose to represent themselves here. So? Yes I am a warrior of Thor, fighting for justice in the world, defending the weak. My avatar fits my mindset. I suppose you would choose a picture of a chained slave because that's how you behave, yes? Posted by: JimmyDtD Jan 19 2004, 07:43 PM You are a "Warrior of Thor" and YOU think MY worldview is ludicrous? He He He! Posted by: TruthWarrior Jan 19 2004, 09:07 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ Jan 15 2004, 01:38 AM) Anyone who want to see demons manifesting in people and being cast out can visit the Hegewisch Baptist Church, Highland Indiana. As a matter of fact, they will be having a deliverance conference on January 29 to Feb, 2, with deliverance sessions at 8:30 pm on the 29th, 30th and 7 PM on the 31st. You can call 219 838 9410 for more information, or visit their website at http://www.hbcdelivers.org. And remember to bring your VISA card because God doesn't accept American Express. QUOTE To those who want to see a mental disorder, they will see a mental disorder instead of the simple explanation. Some things that make it different: 1. Person will speak with a voice other than his own. 2. Person will have knowledge of things he has never experienced 3. Person will have strength beyond his own physical strength. 4. Person's real personality will be surpressed while the demonic personality comes forward. That's nothing unique, and still describes typical abnormal mental behavior. 1. Even you can do that one. 2. That is what dreams are made of. 3. The Almighty Power of Adrenaline! 4. Conflicting personalities, the mind trying to cope with the contradictory faith and heavily suppressed desires. Basically it's just letting out your emotions all at once. Yes it's loud and freaky when one is forced to do it. As I said, it is cathartic, the person releases all that pent up emotion. However, Christian exorcisms only cure the symptons which is wrongly labels as "demons". It never gets to the root of the problem, expecting it to magically immediately go away by the power of god. It only sees the surface of things. The problem with Christianity is that it heaps on even more abuse upon those that are already abused. It can make the clinicly depressed even more depressed in the long run. Then that depressed person eventually commits suicide, and his congregation then condemns him to hell. Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 19 2004, 09:12 PM QUOTE (BillJ @ Jan 15 2004, 08:42 PM) The images are there for entertainment and easier identification, they also make the forum more attractive unlike your posts. They are not there to represent us, our words and actions represent us. Thats a scary badass looking clown you got there BillJ. I like it Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |