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Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 14 2004, 10:41 PM
Who here has read this book?
I bought it saturday night and have read it all day today off and on. I am 3/4 finished with it. So far it has been a great book. Lots of real facts I havent heard of before.

I dont see how anybody could read this book and still believe that Jesus Christ was the biological son of God. Or believe anything of the bible to be literal. I know it is a work of fiction but it is also full of facts.

I dont understand why topics covered in this book arent more widespread. Many famous people and groups have spoken against christianity with symbols and hidden messages in their works. Why has it not become an all out dismissal of Christianity, though? We have the facts. Maybe the Christians arent ready to hear the truth yet?

Maybe that is starting to happen right now....?


personally I feel betrayed and held back by the Christian religion. It may have its values for some but I have seen more damage than anything else. I have no problem informing those still trapped in the mind-fuck of their ignorance.

the notes I have taken from this book alone can crush Christianity. Why do so many choose to believe these lies, still? Emotions?

Posted by: Zach Nov 15 2004, 08:27 AM
I haven't read the book, but what facts are you talking about?

Posted by: lalli Nov 15 2004, 12:03 PM
Er, please remember that The DaVinci Code is a work of fiction.

Note that Dan Brown carefully states at the beginning of the book that only "descriptions of artwork, architecture, and secret rituals" are accurate. He notably doesn't say anything about the historical 'information' his characters present, and while he states that the two secret societies involved in the novel exist, he doesn't state that he's represented them in a historically accurate manner.

The DaVinci Code raises many interesting questions about the history of Christianity and its relations to paganism and Gnosticism; however, it is adviseable to look for the answers to those questions in books on the history of religion, which can be found in the non-fiction section of the bookstore. LeslieLook.gif

Please don't draw conclusions about history based on claims in works of fiction. Just think what would happen if we all did that with, say, the Bible. wicked.gif

Edited to add:

While I am not a historian and thus cannot comment on Dan Brown's grasp of history, I believe there is cause for concern regarding his scholarship overall.

I have lent a copy of his earlier novel Angels and Demons (which deals extensively with particle physics and CERN) to two friends of mine: one holding a BSc in physics; one holding a PhD in particle physics which required him to spend a year at CERN doing research.

For starters, Dan Brown's portrayal of CERN is completely and utterly innacurate. His description of the site is practically the polar opposite of reality, and nearly all the facilities he describes do not exist.

As for his portrayal of particle physics, I quote from my more qualified friends: "He portrays physics? I thought he just portrayed some fantasy world with magic and stuff. Suffice to say, his portrayal of physics is inaccurate from the "These things are true..." hit at the start, and it gets worse from there. The physics in Angels & Demons is highly inaccurate, and based on misconstrued popularisation and misunderstanding."

With this track record, I'd definitely consult slightly more reputable sources on Christian history before drawing any conclusions.

Posted by: lalli Nov 15 2004, 12:24 PM
Hmm, I also ran across this page claiming that Dan Brown plagiarised an earlier and lesser known novel while writing The DaVinci Code: http://www.davincilegacy.com/Infringement/.

As for my personal opinion of The DaVinci Code: I enjoyed it, but I read it while I was recuperating from an overdose and hence hallucinating quite a bit, so don't take my word for it. Also, I found myself laughing quite a lot at the incredible stupidity of Dan Brown's portrayal of cryptography. I guess physics and mathematics just aren't his forté. At all.

Posted by: Saviourmachine Nov 15 2004, 01:37 PM
The cryptographic problems weren't mind boggling. What I did like most of the book was the link with Da Vinci's paintings. I didn't know that Mary was painted at the Last Supper. And it's indeed difficult to see who is holding the knife.

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 15 2004, 01:47 PM
As I said before, I realize the Davinci code is a work of fiction. But there are many facts in the book.
For instance the stolen symbols of other religions. You cannot deny that Christianity was created to be the "ultimate religion". they took the stories and symbols from many different religions and created an all powerful one. They made Jesus Christ into a sort of superman, having the characteristics and traits of almost every great leader or diety.

a few examples:
poseidons triton- devils pitchfork
wise crone pointed hat- symbol of a witch
Venus's pentagal- devils pentagram
Egyptian sun discs- halos around saint's heads
Isis nursing Horis- Virgin Mary nursing Jesus
Baphimet(fertility god)- horned devil or Satan

More stolen similarities:
the pre-christian God Mithras was called the
"son of god and the light of the world". he was born
on Dec. 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb and resurrected
on the third day.
Dec. 25th is also the birthday of:
Osiris(also rose on third day),Adonis and Dionysis.

Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh at birth.

"I am the way the truth and the light. No man gets to my father but through me" was found in the egyptian religion long before christianity wa even heard of.

they VOTED on the date of easter, the divinity of Jesus, etc.
Before then , Jesus was viewed as a mortal man.
Christ as messiah was critical to the functioning of church and state.

My main point:

the original church "Stole" Jesus and his original messages from
his followers and turned him into a diety to expand their own power.

It is very obvious that Jesus was originally some sort of political figure rather than a diety. Also, he would have definately been married to have any respect in the jewish community. (Most likely Mary Magdelene)

other books I am inbetween right now are works of non-fiction and claim many of the same things.
*Holy blood, Holy grail
*The Templar revelation

two other books I bought but havent read yet:
"Excavating Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan and Johnathan L. Reed
"Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs" (which claims that Jesus was governer of Tiberias and the leader of 600 rebels.)

Posted by: Zach Nov 15 2004, 01:56 PM
Ah, yes. The http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ of the Christ character are well known.

But as far as a historical Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and siring a line of French rulers...

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 15 2004, 02:06 PM
thanks for the link, Zach.

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 15 2004, 02:10 PM
But doesnt the mere fact that even 2 main characteristics of Jesus were made up or copied, make you realize that he could be completely made up?

Why I broke away from Christianity:

The bible is the word of God.
The bible has one error in it.
therefore, the bible could have many errors in it.
There is no possible way a "God" could make errors.
The bible is bullshit.
Research thereafter only strengthened my conclusion.

Posted by: MalaInSe Nov 15 2004, 07:41 PM
QUOTE (Saviourmachine @ Nov 15 2004, 12:37 PM)
The cryptographic problems weren't mind boggling. What I did like most of the book was the link with Da Vinci's paintings. I didn't know that Mary was painted at the Last Supper. And it's indeed difficult to see who is holding the knife.

My understanding is that's not supposed to be Mary, but a male apostle.

I don't really buy that the figure is supposed to be male though.

Ren

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 15 2004, 07:50 PM
QUOTE (Saviourmachine @ Nov 15 2004, 12:37 PM)
The cryptographic problems weren't mind boggling. What I did like most of the book was the link with Da Vinci's paintings. I didn't know that Mary was painted at the Last Supper. And it's indeed difficult to see who is holding the knife.

Also the "v" symbol that represents woman is odd. The "M" clearly made by the figures of Jesus and Mary also seems to be put there on purpose.

I never noticed the symbolism in Madonna of the rocks. It seems if you raised the baby up a foot in the painting the women would be cutting his head off. one grabbing his head, the other slicing the neck.

Posted by: REBOOT Nov 16 2004, 08:18 AM
Thing that ticked me off:

Do we really need a semi fiction to invalidate christian beliefs... makes for an interesting read but when people take the contents for cash they head straight to disaster.

Royal lineage maintained through ritual inseminations WendyDoh.gif .... the potential purpose being the ultimate destruction of christian faith through physical irrefutable evidence and the recognition of the female force in creation. They didn't need physical evidence to create the fable.... why should we need evidence to negate it ?

Links to Da Vinci are cool though.

Posted by: Rameus Nov 16 2004, 12:04 PM
(by saviorforsale)
QUOTE
other books I am inbetween right now are works of non-fiction and claim many of the same things.
*Holy blood, Holy grail
*The Templar revelation


Non-fiction? Those books are bloody pseudo-scholarship at their very worst. Christ, we might as well give Graham Hancock an honoray PhD in history and proclaim the Fingerprints of the Gods, The Message of the Sphinx, and the Mars Mystery all to be non-fiction. Don't think I'm trying to shit all over you savior, I'm six cups deep into the Jamaican Blue Mountain this afternoon and I'm about to pour a seventh.

But seriously, these books are fun to read and great to ponder; but in large part, the scholarship is sub standard and the conclusions they draw are speculation of the worst possible sort. I'll admit to having these books on my shelf, but that's as far as I'll go.

There is so much mythology surrounding the Knights Templar these days that it’s absolutely absurd. If you want to know about the Templars, meet me in Cairo; we'll have a couple beers and I'll tell you all about our history. It’s not nearly as interesting as pop-culture makes it out to be.

Rameus

Posted by: Reach Nov 16 2004, 12:15 PM
QUOTE (Rameus @ Nov 16 2004, 11:04 AM)
Don't think I'm trying to shit all over you savior, I'm six cups deep into the Jamaican Blue Mountain this afternoon and I'm about to pour a seventh.

Rameus, that's seriously good coffee and I've been a fan for years. Question for you: Knowing the price per pound, is it overrated? Or does that aristocratic blood demand the highest quality? GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

Reach

Posted by: Rameus Nov 16 2004, 12:28 PM
(by Reach)
QUOTE
Rameus, that's seriously good coffee and I've been a fan for years. Question for you: Knowing the price per pound, is it overrated? Or does that aristocratic blood demand the highest quality?

Reach


*Looks down his nose at her inferior Vanderbilt heritage*

Well being of such high pedigree, I wouldn't know anything about the vulgar pleasures of the masses. Hawaiian Kona is the absolute lowest grade filth that I will refer to as coffee.

Don't tell the Vatican that you have found a true Templar descendant, as they will probably send Jesuit assassins to do away with me before my book is complete. And we can't have that can we? Sweet Jesus, I better use a pen name or else everyone really is going to label me the anti-Christ. I can see it now:

QUOTE
Alabama Ape 1:  That sum bitch Rameus is the anti-Christ.  Just look at him, he’s got one of them evil looking goatees, he knows the bible hand over foot, and he speaks all a’ them languages.

Alabama Ape 2:  Yeah and that fallen angel, atheistic sum bitch is of the Templar bloodline.  Weren’t they excommunicated as devil worshippers?

Alabama Ape 1:  *Grabs shotgun*  That proooves it.  Let’s go git that fucker and teach him some Jesus.

Alabama Ape 2:  *Pulls his penis out of his sisters mouth*  Gas up tha truck, weeere goin on a road trip!


Rameus

Posted by: Reach Nov 16 2004, 12:35 PM
QUOTE (Rameus @ Nov 16 2004, 11:28 AM)
Don't tell the Vatican that you have found a true Templar descendant, as they will probably send Jesuit assassins to do away with me before my book is complete. And we can't have that can we? Sweet Jesus, I better use a pen name or else everyone really is going to label me the anti-Christ. I can see it now...

Damn, Rameus! I don't believe I'd a told that! FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Watch your back!

Reach

Posted by: Lokmer Nov 16 2004, 12:50 PM
QUOTE (SaviorforSale)
As I said before, I realize the Davinci code is a work of fiction. But there are many facts in the book.


There are many interesting facts in Greek Mytholgy and the Bible - that doesn't mean these things are to be trusted as telling the truth without investigating them. The DaVinci code, unfortunately, is a book that falls far below the standards set by both Greek Mythology and The Bible in terms of historical accuracy.

Most of the art-history stuff is interesting (the borrowed symbolism from other religions), but even a lot of that needs to be taken with a grain of salt - or indeed a salt lick. For example, the assertion that Bahomet is a fertility god is occultic bullshit coming out of the work of HPB, who took the idea from French or Spanish monks writing propoganda about the muslims for the crusades. They said the Muslims worshiped the god "Bahomet" - - i.e. Mahomet (Muhammed). Dan Brown is one of those poor souls who is either rankly dishonest or as gullible as the fundies whose dogmas he tries to skewer. The "horned devil god" that Brown claims was Bahomet was actually the Greek god Pan.

As for the similarities with the mysery cults, again Brown is reckless in his accusations. Some - or many - of the similarities he points out are genuine, but many others are not OR are things that may have acculturated FROM Christianity TO the Mysteries.

QUOTE (SFS)
they VOTED on the date of easter, the divinity of Jesus, etc.
Before then , Jesus was viewed as a mortal man.


Bullshit. The only true thing in that statement is that they voted on the date of Easter. Jesus was considered divine by Christians at LEAST by the end of the first century, and probably much earlier. Jesus was NEVER viewed by the church as "merely a man." Indeed, the thing they voted on was whether he was ever a man at all, or just appeared to be a man. Brown is an out-and-out-liar on this point, as ANYONE who has read primary sources can tell you.

QUOTE (SFS)
the original church "Stole" Jesus and his original messages from
his followers and turned him into a diety to expand their own power.


Nope. Under Constantine the religion of his mother (you know, the one Constantine was raised with) was made the state religion for reasons that no one really knows (Eusebius claims that it was because of a vision in some places but not in others, there's a good case to be made for the need of a unifying religion in the empire for political reasons, etc). The Christians worshiped Christ as a diety from the beginning, and the church as it existed in Constantines time was placed into power by Constantine (and given the holdings of various other religions, including Vatican Hill which was the seat of Mithraism at the time).

QUOTE (SFS)
It is very obvious that Jesus was originally some sort of political figure rather than a diety. Also, he would have definately been married to have any respect in the jewish community. (Most likely Mary Magdelene)


Wrong wrong wrong. Jesus may never have existed at all. If he was, it's possible he could have been married, but is just as likely he wasn't, as the Stoics and other wandering philosophers of that ilk (which the character we know as Jesus certainly fits) generally took vows of chastity and traveled in the company of women with similar vows.
The Essenes (a.k.a. the Nazoreans) were a Jewish sect that had similar practices.

QUOTE (SFS)
other books I am inbetween right now are works of non-fiction and claim many of the same things.
*Holy blood, Holy grail
*The Templar revelation


These books are the ones that Brown based his scenario on. They are fraudulent and hoaxes. The documentation that Holy Blood, Holy Grail and The Templar Revelation are based on was forged by a French Nazi sect (The Priory of Sion) in the late 19th century - the forgery was admitted to in the 30s. These books are fanciful fiction woven together with enough fact to be convincing, but they're not history in any sense of the word.

QUOTE (SFS)
two other books I bought but havent read yet:
"Excavating Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan and Johnathan L. Reed
"Jesus, Last of the Pharaohs" (which claims that Jesus was governer of Tiberias and the leader of 600 rebels.)


J.D. Crossan is an excellent scholar. I haven't heard of the other book. If you are interested in the origins of borrowed elements in the Christian story, "Deconstructing Jesus" is an excellent place to start, as are the mystery sourcebooks recommended on the "Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth" page that Zach linked to.


This is a fascinating area of study, SFS, but it is full of sharks, snakes, and liars on BOTH sides of the doctrinal divide. Be careful, be skeptical, and ALWAYS check sources (going back to primary sources when possible). And there are a few of us here always willing to be used to bounce things off of.

-Lokmer

Posted by: Rameus Nov 16 2004, 01:01 PM
(by Reach)
QUOTE
Damn, Rameus! I don't believe I'd a told that!

Watch your back!

Reach


Of course you would have, you're a woman so you can't be trusted. Need proof? Just look at the examples of Eve, Pandora, and Tiamat! It's because of those bloody harlots that the world is so chaotic today.

I'd make a great Christian fundamentalist. Now all I need is a concussion or two to facilitate the shift.

Rameus

Posted by: fortunehooks Nov 16 2004, 02:54 PM
the da vinci code is a good book. i hear the movie is coming out in 2006,supposedly starring, tom hanks.

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 16 2004, 03:24 PM
QUOTE (Lokmer @ Nov 16 2004, 11:50 AM)


This is a fascinating area of study, SFS, but it is full of sharks, snakes, and liars on BOTH sides of the doctrinal divide. Be careful, be skeptical, and ALWAYS check sources (going back to primary sources when possible). And there are a few of us here always willing to be used to bounce things off of.

-Lokmer

Thanks for the info, Lokmer. Out of curiousity, What are some "primary sources"? I have spent hours and hours in books stores trying to find older sources than the normal bookshelf may have. St. Paul has some very nice bookstores with used/rare books. I may look there more.

Holy blood, Holy Grail and The Templar Revelation have been on my bookshelf for almost a year now and I've only read about 40 pages of each. AS interesting as the subject is...I always seem to loose interest. After a while of reading I'm like "I dont really care anymore". After all, I'm not a Christian anymore, so why should I waste hours a week studying Christianity? Christians dont even do that! GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

I started to read "Atheism, the case against God" last night. I think I enjoyed the Davinci Code because it was a novel. I havent read a novel in over 2 years. It seems i am always reading books on Religion, Atheism, Psychology, History, and Philosophy.
I read "Siddhartha" a few months ago but it was a quick read and i finished it in one day.

I read some books by Thich Nhat Hanh but they were VERY boring and seemed like his agenda was to assure Christians that Buddha could be cool, too. KatieHmm.gif

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 16 2004, 03:25 PM
QUOTE (fortunehooks @ Nov 16 2004, 01:54 PM)
the da vinci code is a good book. i hear the movie is coming out in 2006,supposedly starring, tom hanks.

I would definitely go see it. It was a great book. I was hoping there would be a movie.

Posted by: Lokmer Nov 16 2004, 04:12 PM
QUOTE (saviorforsale @ Nov 16 2004, 02:24 PM)

Thanks for the info, Lokmer. Out of curiousity, What are some "primary sources"? I have spent hours and hours in books stores trying to find older sources than the normal bookshelf may have. St. Paul has some very nice bookstores with used/rare books. I may look there more.

SFS -

"Primary source" refers to historical works (or just works) contemporaneous with the times and events they described. In this case, Primary Sources would be books like "Metamorphisis" (a.k.a. The Golden Ass - which is a novel), Josephus, Origen, Martyr, Celus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Herodotus, Livy, Caesar, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/081221692X/qid=1100646250/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-3519105-3573430?v=glance&s=books&n=507846. The cultural situation in the Julio-Claudian era and following is fascinating and very complicated, which is one of the reasons that people still have to work to debunk Christianity.

As far as the boredom setting in - I know what that can be like. And it is certain that skeptics study Christianity more than Christians themselves do (or there would be fewer Christians). I study it because it interests me from a human standpoint, as do all religions (you learn about man by studying his beliefs and fantasies). And also because I love history. As to why you should study it - - well, whether you should or not is something only you can answer phew.gif

But with all that study good novels are important! Fiction reaches us on a different level and feeds the spirit - that's why all religions are based on good stories! There is something of value in a good story. Just don't mistake it for fact or truth. Too often Ex-Christians will believe anything anti-Christian that they are handed, which is the equivalent of being a fundy, in reverse. That's not worthy of us. Enjoy - but be always critical. If something sounds too pat, too bizarre, or too interesting to be true, investigate! It probably is LeslieLook.gif

-Lokmer

Posted by: Rameus Nov 17 2004, 03:53 PM
(by Lokmer)
QUOTE
Too often Ex-Christians will believe anything anti-Christian that they are handed, which is the equivalent of being a fundy, in reverse. That's not worthy of us.


Perfectly stated Lokmer.

Rameus

Posted by: fortunehooks Nov 24 2004, 12:28 PM
while we are on the subject of the davinci code,there is a new book called,"the da vinci code deception." i saw it at where else,wal-mart.

Posted by: An tÓglach Nov 26 2004, 02:14 AM
I tried to read it but found it boring. It seemed a bit silly, the flavour of the moment. . .

Posted by: SpaceMonk Nov 26 2004, 07:09 AM
QUOTE (Zach @ Nov 15 2004, 08:56 PM)
Ah, yes. The http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/ of the Christ character are well known.

But as far as a historical Jesus marrying Mary Magdalene and siring a line of French rulers...

Reminds me of an article by an author called Richard Smoley who says about the curiosities linking Jesus and Mary Magdalene,
QUOTE
"...there is of course no proof that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene or that they had children. And even if it could be proven, what difference would it really make?
What would it matter even if their descendants had survived to this day? The bloodline would have been so diluted over the course of two thousand years that the connection would be extremely tenuos in any event.

Consequently, while speculations about Christ's private life may fascinate us as we are fascinated by gossip about celebrities, in the end it can be little more than an entertainment. If these are the ultimate secrets of Christianity, they are rather disappointing."


Also, last I heard, the authors of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" were suing Dan Brown for ripping off their research. He even used their names with letters rearranged to create names for his characters in "The Davinci Code".
WendyDoh.gif

Posted by: noendinsight Nov 26 2004, 01:37 PM
I liked the da vinci code and I can't wait for the movie.

Posted by: The Acid Washed Messiah Dec 6 2004, 12:02 PM
I hereby pronounce it, "Gay, but with crunchy bits."

Make of that what you will.

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