| QUOTE |
| I'm Convinced of that God intervenes. |
Is that moldy old sandwich still being paraded around?
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| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Tangible Proof of Miracles |
| Posted by: Eccles1:2 Mar 8 2005, 04:09 AM |
| Over the years, I've heard of many amazing things - people's teeth and withered limbs spontaneously regrowing, old ladies leaping out of wheelchairs, brain tumours suddenly disappearing - but I've never seen any verifiable proof. This used to puzzle and annoy me when I was a christian, and I'm just wondering if any apologists have evidence in support of miraculous happenings which lie outside the "coincidence probabability factor". |
| Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 8 2005, 04:20 AM |
| I don't know if one can prove such a thing since by their very nature any one of us would be left taking someone else's word for it. I will say this: I don't think miracles are happening on TV at the hands of some slick haired evangelist who makes 5 million a year. |
| Posted by: Eccles1:2 Mar 8 2005, 04:29 AM | ||
I know what you mean MG, but I'd settle for some before and after photos... |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 05:20 AM | ||
I agree but there is no Biblical injunction against a "slick haired evangelist who makes 5 million a year," and as long as he believes, miracles are supposed to follow those who believe, whether or not we find those pulpit jockeys/faith healers to be repulsive. |
| Posted by: Zach Mar 8 2005, 06:20 AM |
| There was one fellow who visited this forum many moons ago who claimed that his wife's broken leg had been miraculously healed over the span of 24 hours. I asked him to provide X-rays and doctor's affidavits, but he never returned. A more interesting question is how one defines a miracle. If, for example, it is something that contradicts our understanding of natural law, then is it actually a miracle, or is it something we just don't yet understand? |
| Posted by: Bruce Mar 8 2005, 06:43 AM | ||
If a person believes a miracle occurred, it has very much to do with faith. Take a fairly mundane claim of a "miracle". In the part of the world that I live in floods and tornados are rather frequent occurences. How many times have we seen a person on the news talking about how the tornado went through, destroyed their house and they escaped injury and this is given as proof of a miracle? I have seen them state, "God was watching over me, it was a miracle I was not killed"? There are multiple issues in the belief or proof of miracles. Briefly, these are: 1. Miracles (if they are real) are singular exceptions to the natural order (resurrection, splitting the Red Sea) and are beyond the scope of science to investigate because they are singularities and cannot be duplicated. 2. Even if naturalistic cause is provided to explain how the "miracle" occurred, there is still the aspect of probability/possibility. For instance, I have heard theologians claim that the eruption of the volcano in the Aegean and resulting tsunami can naturally explain the receding of the water and following tidalwave as the water returned at the time of the Exodus. They then say, God used a perfectly natural means of accomplishing a miraculous event, and the miracle itself is in the actual timing of the event. 3. Some Christians claim that miracles have ceased and use the words of Paul in 1st Corinthians 13:8-10 to justify this. Thus to the people holding this belief, miracles claimed in modern times are de facto considered to be frauds., as it anti-biblical. (which is why Baptists consider Pentecostals to be apostates) 4. Any advanced technology that is witnessed by someone not as technologically advanced can be held to be a miracle. For instance, if a primitive person saw a television, it would be miraculous, a talking box that showed pictures from far away. I have heard people discuss things such as MRI's to be miraculous, even thought there are perfectly scientific explanations for how it operates. 5. Events that would be truly miraculous (item 1) are generally never subject to examination; they always occurred far away in time or space. For the modern claims of recurring miracles, such as the modern day faith healers who claim repeated events, these have never been confirmed as real. Moreover, there is ample evidence and proof that these miracle workers engage in fraud and are snake oil salesmen. 6. What it basically comes down to again is faith. If a person wants to believe in miracles, they will, regardless of valid evidence to the contrary. It is however pertinent that modern miracles are always subtle. For instance, faith healers claim to cure arthritis or heart problems, things that cannot be observed by the naked eye, but no event has been recorded where a severed limb is regrown or a long dead (24 hours or more) corpse is brought back to life. The defining difference between what constitutes a miracle is based upon an individuals' belief system. Those who operate based upon a faith world-view have a lower standard than a person who who is more skeptically minded. I seriously doubt any atheist or skeptic would continue to doubt miracles if a "faith healer" was able to raise a dead person to life, or to cause a severed limb to spontaneously grow under controlled conditions. The fact that these miracle workers have not been and even refuse to be tested under controlled conditions begs the question as to why. Now, I'll finish by talking about things that I know of first hand. I lead a Search & Rescue unit, where we go and locate, treat and evacuate people under emergency conditions, usually when the weather is bad. We operate by scientific methodology, be it in planned search techniques, first aid, etc. I cannot tell you how many times we have rescued the person and then to have the victim say, "Thank God you found us! It is a miracle that God led you to me and saved my life!". I can honestly say that in none of these many missions was God or a representative of his involved in planning or executing the rescue operation. It does not matter that we use scientific means to achieve a successful rescue, for the victim's faith forces them to credit God. When in fact, they are usually lost and hurt because of a situation that the government or insurance industry classifies as "an act of God), ie: Tornado, flood, etc. This is much like people in hospitals, the doctors do the work using science, and God gets the credit. When a victim/patient dies however, the doctors get sued and God is given a pass, in that it was "God called them back, it was his will that they were called back home". Praising God, they go to their attorney and sue the people that were working hard to save their relative. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 07:24 AM | ||
From one of the links you posted here, Eccles, apparently these Christians have seen and heard plenty of miracles.
From http://www.funport.com/insong/INSONG2.htm I'm left to wonder what would be the purpose for (and value of hearing) angels sing? |
| Posted by: kemeticpoet Mar 8 2005, 08:03 AM | ||
I think part of true belief, though, is following scripture. Jesus said "Sell all you have and give it to the poor," and that if someone asks you for something, give it to them, and if someone sues you for your coat, give it to them along with your cloak, etc etc etc. I don't think that some asshole on stage thanking everyone for their generous donations, allowing them to buy three armani suits and a Cadillac is a true believer. Any evangelist who says things like "If you don't have a bank account, we accept credit cards" is probably not a believer. Therefore I can say that in my own opinion, they should not be performing miracles. |
| Posted by: quicksand Mar 8 2005, 08:09 AM |
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4034787.stm |
| Posted by: skankboy Mar 8 2005, 08:12 AM | ||
Is that moldy old sandwich still being paraded around? |
| Posted by: kemeticpoet Mar 8 2005, 08:19 AM | ||
Ah, just what any good Christian symbol should do - act as a good luck charm to win at the lottery. And for fuck's sake, she's selling the damn sandwich toaster too. "Note: this may or may not reproduce the image of the Virgin mary." So much for "sell all you have and give it to the poor." Anyway, what the fuck does the Virgin Mary look like? That just looked like a woman. It could be Aphrodite or Ishtar just as much as it could be Mary. Maybe it's the demonic Ishtar, tricking innocents by giving them good luck. It pissed me off a couple years ago when some asshole on TV won the lottery. The prick was ALREADY RICH! And he spent some money on lottery tickets, and won like a half million dollars. HE WAS ALREADY FUCKING RICH BEFORE HE WON THE LOTTERY! Then he had the gall to say that God was blessing him by making him win. Why the fuck would God take a rich guy and help him win more money in the fucking lottery? And if he is already rich, and believes in God so much, why didn't he give the money to some needy family? What the fuck is wrong with people... |
| Posted by: skankboy Mar 8 2005, 08:37 AM | ||||
And I thought keeping a grilled cheese sandwich for over a decade was stupid. That's just WRONG!
Maybe it's a photo negative of Aunt Jemima, kind of like the shroud of Turin... but on a sandwich...  |
| Posted by: TruthWarrior Mar 8 2005, 08:56 AM |
| It appears that every claimed miracle is http://www.shareintl.org/background/miracles/MI_main.htm! Check out the http://www.shareintl.org/maitreya/Ma_approach.htm! Witness the appearance of Jesus...er I mean http://www.shareintl.org/background/miracles/MI_nairobi.htm! "Maitreya is using the energy of equilibrium to stimulate the urge towards greater harmony between man and man, and between man and nature." See Maitreyas "http://www.shareintl.org/background/miracles/MI_peace.htm"!   |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 09:10 AM | ||
I think that fundamentally, people are stupid. What is a Christian doing buying lottery tickets, anyway? He's supposed to be trusting God for his needs, rather than selfishly pursuing his greeds. |
| Posted by: Bruce Mar 8 2005, 09:21 AM |
| People create god in their own image. People pick and choose religions or religious beliefs based upon their own personal wants. They justify beliefs based upon their choices. This is why you have Pentecostals who are in the "Word of Faith" movement and other Protestants who think Pentecostals are apostates. One has to give to Christianity though, the "Word of God" is so vague and contradictory that it alone has been able to spin off 30,000+ different denominations, each claiming the one true ™ understanding. it is interesting that it is just not atheists that look at Christianity as being bizarre, but also most people of other faiths too. Many people have claimed that the growth, size and longetivity of Christianity is evidence to it's truth. I have another viewpoint on it. Instead of it being evidence for being the truth, it is evidence that it is the smorgasbord of religion,; it can be anything to any people who simply want to believe in something. Christianity as a whole is wildly successful because all it takes is faith, pesky rules for actually living and relating to others can be ignored. Remember the saying, "We are Christians, you will be assimil..." no wrong saying ...."We are Christians who are forgiven, not perfect". //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 09:26 AM | ||
Loren says, "Real men love Cheeses." |
| Posted by: Diogenes Mar 8 2005, 09:40 AM | ||
What about the '69 Mets? |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 8 2005, 10:26 AM | ||
I am really surprised that MG didn't jump on that one Zach. He has claimed before that we would not recognize a miracle due to that very notion. I think he thinks that we would become naturalist apologists (hey, that's kind of catchy!) |
| Posted by: Bruce Mar 8 2005, 10:33 AM |
| MG confuses me immensley. He reminds me to a degree of Reach when she first came here, except she is much prettier and not a rodent. |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 10:56 AM | ||
 Thanks for the latter part of your statement, Bruce, but the first part of it is downright insulting.I have nothing in common with Gerbil. Absolutely nothing. I never did either. |
| Posted by: Bruce Mar 8 2005, 11:04 AM | ||||
Reach, let me clarify. When you first came here you did defend Christian views from a liberal point of view and at other times you would state things that contradicted the earlier. No matter, I understand what you were going through in your loss of faith. This is why he reminds me a bit of you when you first came here. He claims to believe in Christianity but sees some of the problems with the belief system. I remember asking you what your purpose was at ExC; initially we did not not know if you were genuinely here to learn or were here to present a nicer witness for Christianity. MG confuses me on this too. His beliefs and some of his statements are logically contradictory and where he stands and why is an enigma to me. No disrespect to you was intended. //Bruce// |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 8 2005, 11:14 AM | ||
Thanks for the comments, Bruce. I took no offense, truly, but was hoping for (and fishing for) a clarification.  I understand the confusion. Christianity did that to us. |
| Posted by: Madame M Mar 8 2005, 11:29 AM | ||
Some people believe they are the center of the universe, and God is sitting on the edge of His seat, waiting to bless them. They also believe, by virtue of being themselves, that they deserve to be blessed over and over. They then merrily put on faith tinted glasses and ignore the billions on the earth that are not so fortunate. |
| Posted by: Eccles1:2 Mar 8 2005, 02:33 PM | ||||
Some visiting speaker when I used to be a pastor brought a crackly old tape along that purported to contain angels singing. I wish I'd got a copy of it; it was weird. It was supposed to be a couple of people rehearsing for a worship session. They recorded it to see what they sounded like, but when they played it back there were all these extra voices singing incredible harmonies. There was definitely something there, but who knows what caused it? The guy said "scientists" had examined the tape and concluded that there were hundreds of voices singing, some of them higher than any human could manage. I don't know what the hell it was, unless it was a mellotron or something (it was a long time ago!). And you're right Reach - of what value would that be as a miracle? |
| Posted by: Saviourmachine Mar 9 2005, 05:18 AM |
I went last sunday to Jan Zijlstra (mentioned http://www.sharefin.org/lehtisesta/main.php?haettava=uk0402.inc&vuosi=2002 on a website about Maitreya and Benjamin Creme). Heard many testimonies, stories of mr. Zijlstra, and announcements to offer money for a new church. I did leave after 3 hours, because Zijlstra retold about the times in which services lasted until far after midnight, and I didn't enjoy it that much...  So, it's a pity, but I can't tell you about a miracle. |
| Posted by: SOIL-ITU Mar 9 2005, 10:14 AM | ||
| At times in my life, I have interpreted as 'minor miracles' - or maybe simply a "God-timing thing" - curious chronological orders of events which happened in unusual and unexpected timing sequences, (things that others might perhaps refer to as stretches of the customary boundaries we might normally consider to be a reasonable "coincidence probability factor"). In my work, and with various other areas regarding things I have previously prayed about, I have experienced enough - so I can 'relate' to I something I read this morning - (in chapter 53) of one of the books I mentioned earlier: http://www.sciencedaily.com/cgi-bin/apf4/amazon_products_feed.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=0849918383 by http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/030508.html : Below I am copying from page 221 (of the book, http://www.campusi.com/bookFind/asp/bookFindPriceLst.asp?prodId=0849918383, tendered by W Publishing Group):
-Dennis |
| Posted by: quicksand Mar 9 2005, 10:25 AM | ||||||
How long ago was this tape recorded I wonder? I am willingly to bet my seat in heaven that this tape machine didn't have the best shielding over its electronics thus allowing other radio signals (AM: which propagates through the ground; FM: which is propagated by bouncing its signal off the atmosphere, i.e. point to point transmission) to use this tape recorder as "radio" receiver. Sometimes these signals can fold over many times which is why we get interference on a broadcast, and this seen when television flickers or by the doubling of images. (Also an effective way of jamming a radio signal too. Just put more power behind it and you can effectively sequester any broadcasted information that you don't want heard or seen.) Ever heard of a clear channel? (Not the same as the company.) A clear channel does not have any other channels upon its frequency, thus allowing the clearest crispest signal. You can only shoot an FM signal about the distance of the horizon from the pea shooter of a transmitter. This distance is about 40 miles to 60 miles (on a clear cloudless day). Anyway, if scientists (probably more like sound or acoustic engineers) – whoever they were, analyzed this tape & saw no evidence of tampering, they wouldn't. Not only would the performance be taped live, but the resulting interference as well. This interfering broadcast could have easily a choir signing, or James Brown. But the real question, why would God use such a surreptitious route anyway? I've got toast that says otherwise. |