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ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Sex and Christianity > Taking Back Our Sexuality
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 04:22 PM
I don't think I'm alone in my opinion that Christianity is toxic to women, especially to women with brains who recognize that we are sexual creatures. Women of my generation (okay, I admit it, I'm 40...I'm trying to come to terms with it) were taught that nice girls don't, only men enjoy sex, and you should never touch yourself "down there". Any of this sound familiar?
What I'm wondering now is how to get past all of that repression and teach our daughters that nice girls, in fact, do, and that sex is supposed to be enjoyable for them, too. Finding that out for myself took many years and a lot of guilt, something that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Obviously it's different for men (I mean, if you're a guy, has there ever been a day when you didn't touch yourself? A guy's gotta take a leak once in a while, right?), but for girls it's not always readily apparent that some of that stuff down there is fun, you know?
I guess what I'm asking is: can we tell our daughters how to masturbate?
It's not that I have any problem discussing sex with anyone. If anything, I'm too frank for most of the people I know IRL. I'm just wondering if it's outside the realm of what I should be doing as a parent.
What do y'all think?
L
*************************************************
A little background:
I have twins, a girl and a boy. They'll be 9 at the end of June (and before y'all freak out, I'm not planning on telling my daughter--or son, for that matter--anything beyond the basics of reproduction until they are teenagers). There has never been a time when they didn't know that boys and girls are made differently. My DH and I try to treat nudity like a normal part of life (we don't lock the doors when we shower, the kids know that we sleep au naturale). They both know where babies come from, and they both know what kinds of changes their bodies are going to go through when they hit puberty (my poor daughter shrieks every time I say that word, though ). I like to think that we're instilling a positive attitude toward sex, but my own perception is so skewed that I'm never sure when I've gone too far--don't you just love that Catholic guilt?
Posted by: Luck Mermaid Jun 7 2004, 08:10 PM
Joycelyn Elders thought so, I don't. For one thing, it could get you jailed and your kids taken away from you.It's just not legal.
For another thing, EW!!! How would YOU feel if your mom had taught YOU to masturbate... wouldn't you be fighting to get her face out of your head every time? I had a mom who was 'open' about sexuality and let me tell you - CREEP FACTOR 9.
However, you raise a question many people are struggling with today and I'm sure if you 'shop around' online or find a few books that you will get some help from parents who don't want to traumatize their kids but don't want them to grow up feeling like dirty whores every time they get wet or a boner.
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jun 7 2004, 08:38 PM
Here's a little advice: When they ask you about it (maybe 9 is too young, I'd say 11-12 when they start up some feelings developmentally), don't act as if it is something that shouldn't be discussed, don't even be a little shocked (this might be hard, may need some practice).
Use the frank terms that kids will use with their friends. Let them know that there is nothing wrong with sexuality, your's, their's or anyone else's, as long as they are safe (I.e. birth control).
The boy will go nuts or not irregardless of what you tell him, but the girl should be told explicitly that she should only have sex if she want's to and that there is nothing wrong with a person's body or sexuality. I can't emphisize that enough.
If you want to press the issue, watch a movie with your children that has a mild sexual scenario that is at least based in love. Before the scene occurs, explain what is about to happen. Watch the scene. Then Stop and have a discussion on how they felt about it, and why it was acceptable.
After they are comfortable with this, and when you are ready (which won't be for a while, wait till about 14), you can begin working on darker areas of sex (abuse, addiction, rape, etc.) and how to avoid them as well as deal with them.
Many people, I think make the mistake of warning their children about people touching them too much which leads them to spread that association to all people, not just perverts. Just go with "If someone touches you without your permission".
You can encourage your children to be sexually active, and you can tell them how to do it right.
A final caveat though:
Actually telling telling them that they should go and masturbate is considered coersion causing the child to sexually fondle themselves, which is usually a felony. You don't want your child running to a friend telling them how you told them to masturbate (and how), after all you can't even take nude photographs of your children playing in a tub these days without some developer calling the cops (actual story of a friend). Just a warning.
If you catch one masturbating (depending on how they develop, this is more than likely to happen), same rules as above. Don't act shocked. Apologize for intruding and leave. They will either come to you or will be too shy (you know your children). This is also a very significant event that can sexually traumatize them if you react terribly. When you discuss it (but be sure that you do), talk about how masturbation is normal. Everyone does it. Be very calm and explain that it's a very enjoyable experiance, people do it when they want to feel good. Explain why it is acceptable, and be sure to revisit the issue of sex addiction.
This is only my advice and you will have a few fastballs thrown your way, but it's important to be prepared (and develop your own ideas on what to do overtime). Be ready. Always emphisize saftey and understanding.
Posted by: whisper Jun 7 2004, 09:01 PM
Ah, you beat me to this one. I have been thinking about it since my post on 'sexual peak', although my thoughts are in regard to adult 'children'.
The closest I have ever come to such a discussion with my own mother was in regard to her experience with painful intercourse. So I told her about using KY jelly and even purchased some at the store for her, which by the way, she never used. I think she was actually afraid to change her experience with sex from being something painful to being something pleasant. I mean, nice girls don't enjoy sex now do they? (I think that is very sad.)
Now mind you, my mother had in the past called me a slut because I had intercourse prior to marriage. So this was real progress in any type of intimate discussion with her because my morality was so different from her own. But this is as close as I have come to any type of discussion about sex with my own mother (except don't do it until you're married ). So I am wondering about other women's experiences with their own mothers regarding sexuality and how far one should go with that as their daughters mature.
Does the parent/child relationship ever change to a deep friendship? If it does, this is something I have missed out on because my mother and I are (for the most part) strangers.
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 09:06 PM
QUOTE (Luck Mermaid @ Jun 7 2004, 08:10 PM)
Joycelyn Elders thought so, I don't. For one thing, it could get you jailed and your kids taken away from you.It's just not legal.
Luck,
Okay, first off, since when is it illegal to talk to your kids about sex?
This is exactly the attitude I'm fighting against, the idea that sex is something so shameful that it can't even be discussed. This country (US) has a twisted puritanical/Christian mindset that sexualizes everything while simultaneously trying to pretend that sex doesn't exist except between a sanctified man/woman pair in the dark, with most of their clothes on.
QUOTE
For another thing, EW!!! How would YOU feel if your mom had taught YOU to masturbate... wouldn't you be fighting to get her face out of your head every time? I had a mom who was 'open' about sexuality and let me tell you - CREEP FACTOR 9.
Did I say teach? I don't believe I did. I'm sorry that your own experience with your mother was negative, but please don't project that on me.
QUOTE
However, you raise a question many people are struggling with today and I'm sure if you 'shop around' online or find a few books that you will get some help from parents who don't want to traumatize their kids but don't want them to grow up feeling like dirty whores every time they get wet or a boner.
Um, gee...thanks, I never thought of that
L
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 09:09 PM
Space Falcon,
Thanks just the same, but I was hoping for some response and insight from someone who might have an inkling of what I'm talking about (i.e., grown-ups).
L
Posted by: Lokmer Jun 7 2004, 09:14 PM
The best book I've read on childhood sexual development recently is Judith Levine's "Harmful to Minors", which you can get on Amazon.com. It is extremely well referenced, including extensive quotes in the endnotes (something that should be a lot more common than it is) and is very easy to fact-check. Her approach is very pragmatic, and she includes a detailed survey of sexual abuse laws, statistics, and treatments in the course of covering fairly thoroughly the way our country deals with sex and children. She sees the same problems you do, and although she does go a few places I'm not comfortable with (her chapter on abortion, while containing much very valuable information, is far more polemical than I thought was appropriate - the fact that I disagreed with about 1/2 of her thrust didn't help matters, of course), on the whole it is an excellent resource for someone asking the questions that you are.
The only caveat I would offer is that in the last chapter she gets all political in a fashion that does not suit the rest of the book (and, granted, she's a fairly socialist-leaning politico while I'm a libertarian, so disagreements are bound to crop up ).
It's not a cure-all, but it's a good place to start, and the bibliography will give you great resources to further reading, but for concurring and opposing views.
-Lokmer
BTW- explaining masturbation in abstract and concrete terms, and giving permission to do the same, is not coercion. Asking your child to strip in front of you and demonstrate that they understand is coercion. It's not that hard to tell the difference between parenting and abuse.
Posted by: whisper Jun 7 2004, 09:26 PM
aMaidensGrave,
You know, I was raised in a strict southern baptist environment. Yet I rebelled and never felt guilt. Maybe because I had never been close to my mother in the first place and at the same time rejected organized religion leaving me with nothing to feel guilty about.
I don't understand the aversion to sex that has been put out there by the various churches of Christianity. I mean, read The Song of Solomon (or called Song of Songs). That is a wonderful read...I wonder if the Jewish religion has the same outlook on sex as Christianity has had. Anyone have the heads up on that one?
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 09:26 PM
QUOTE
Does the parent/child relationship ever change to a deep friendship? If it does, this is something I have missed out on because my mother and I are (for the most part) strangers.
whisper,
I'm sorry that your relationship with your mother isn't what you would like it to be. I'm afraid that's all too common...
My own mother and I have developed a very close relationship over the past 10 years. We're not very far apart in age (she was only 19 when I was born), and at 40 and 59 we are in some ways more on the nature of peers than mother and daughter.
Over the past couple of years we have had many surprisingly frank discussions about sex, and our experiences. Of course there is the occasional "ick" factor--there are some things you really don't want to know about even the people you are closest to. I could have gone forever without knowing some of the things she's told me, but it's made her feel better to be able to say them.
The hardest part for me has been letting go of my resentment for all the things she taught me about sex as a child that turned out to be wrong (that having sex before I was married would ruin my life, for example). Sometimes I want to smack her for being so open and reasonable about it now, when I don't really need her to be. If only she'd been so enlightened when I was younger...maybe I wouldn't have had as many problems as I did. Oh, well. Water under the bridge.
The mother/daughter relationship is the most complicated in the world.
L
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 09:34 PM
Thank you, Lokmer
Posted by: whisper Jun 7 2004, 09:46 PM
Thanks aMaidensGrave, I've accepted that this will never change. My mother is over thirty years older than me and that generation gap is just too big to cross. I'm 45 and my daughter is 6, an even potentially wider generation gap that I'm trying to be stay aware of by being attentive to what's going on in the world.
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jun 7 2004, 10:25 PM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 8 2004, 01:09 AM)
Thanks just the same, but I was hoping for some response and insight from someone who might have an inkling of what I'm talking about (i.e., grown-ups).
That kind of closedmindedness won't get you very far.
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jun 7 2004, 10:35 PM
QUOTE (whisper @ Jun 8 2004, 01:26 AM)
I don't understand the aversion to sex that has been put out there by the various churches of Christianity. I mean, read The Song of Solomon (or called Song of Songs). That is a wonderful read...I wonder if the Jewish religion has the same outlook on sex as Christianity has had. Anyone have the heads up on that one?
No. The reason people do sometimes think this is the natural cause of living in a christian society.
Truly, Judaism is quite accepting when it comes to sex. Sex is not a sin, it's a mitzvah, a commandment, a good deed as it were.
More over it's a responability between husband and wife. Sex there is extremely important, not only for procreation, but as a normal marriage interaction. In addition, it's intended as a pleasurable, and to a point, sacred experiance. It is noted that, besides pleasurable sex, that sex must be regular within a marriage (not nessicarily for pro-creation), not quite recreational in nature, but it might as well be.
As for sex outside the marriage, there is no problem with that either, as long as you don't have sex with people you couldn't marry and have children with (i.e. incest).
Posted by: sexkitten Jun 7 2004, 10:42 PM
My parents' advice and teaching on sex was mostly nonexistent, and fairly negative where it did exist. While I am a fairly sexually healthy and expressive woman now, the attitudes I took away from my parents did real damage to my sense of self as a teenager (its hard to like yourself if you think you are bad for masturbating and thinking about sex all the time) and it was that which I am still recovering from as an adult.
I learned a lot about what I wouldn't want to teach my kids if I had them, and in recent years after some research (I second the rec for Harmful to Minors, excellent book) and reflection, these are the things that I wish my parents had been able to communicate with me.
Communicate a positive attitude towards sex and sexuality. The kids should know that the adult games you play are a joy rather than something a woman puts up with, and when you encounter sexual themes in life and art, respond to them thoughtfully and on an individual basis (not all sex is positive, but neither is everything remotely sexual bad).
Let the topic come up naturally. Sex is part of life, and life brings many opportunities to talk about sex and what it means to people. You shouldn't depend on the great big sex talk to help your kids develop their values around sex. Talk about it when your neighbor's cat has kittens, or your cousin is pregnant at the bridal shower, or there is a sex scandal on the news, or whatever.
Most of my parent's bad attitudes about sex came through in the things they said about pregnant teenagers, tv programs, their experiences, etc. And even though they said the "right things" about using contraception and safe sex, it was hard to take it seriously and it didn't have as much emotional impact as the things they taught when they thought they weren't teaching anything.
Respond to the kids' questions as honestly and as completely as you can. The worst experience I had talking about sex with my parents came when I asked my dad what oral sex meant. Rather than explain it, he said... "Um, you know what 'oral' means, right? And you know basically how people have sex? Well, um, that's oral sex." Extremely unhelpful, especially as I got that far on my own.
I hope any of that is helpful to you...
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 7 2004, 10:54 PM
Space Falcon,
You wrote a great deal of advice on something with which you have no experience, at least from the point of view that I expressed an interest in.
The fact of the matter is that you are very young. Wisdom comes from experience, and experience, by its nature, happens over time. You are clearly intelligent, so I'm sure that this will make sense to you.
When you have gained some experience, then you can advise me on parenting. Until that time, please remember that there are things that you don't know.
As for being closeminded--an open mind requires a filter, or it will just get packed full of crap. Knowing what to filter for and when to empty the filter also comes with experience. My experience tells me that people who have already come up against the problems I am facing generally give better advice than those who haven't.
L
Posted by: BlueGiant Jun 7 2004, 11:47 PM
Can't say too much on reclaiming for women. The whole male thing can be such a bother at times. As it stands though, there is some issues that are related on the male side, I feel. Especially the whole "bragging rights" thing...the whole double standard is rather screwed up. There is, however, even a straitjacket in this case, with how things are to go down. I just feel that the female issues are a symptom of an even larger problem (then again, I am probably stating the obvious here.)
I will note what is discussed in this thread if I ever should have to raise a daughter in some way, shape or form. Thanks for the insights.
Posted by: Luck Mermaid Jun 8 2004, 03:56 AM
Maiden, I was just trying to help - you ASKED for help. I really felt you used the truth to hurt me (i.e. 'don't put you're crazy projections on me") type of 'I'm just being honest". I wasn't trying to hurt you or tell you that I think sexuality is bad, but didn't you say 'teach them about masturbation'? That CAN and OFTEND OES get kids and you in trouble. I don't think it's puritanical not to want your parents getting too intimate about sex in discussion with you because it's just gross. Not because sex is on discussion, but because it's your PARENTS. That's the thing - kids don't want their parents getting too in detail. I know you don't want your kids to go through what you went through rediscovering that your own sexuality was OK and not wrong or gross, but that's something they have ot find for themselves I think. All you can do is fill in the blanks where the sex ed class leaves off, which might be a little (like the location of the clitoris and masturbation is ok) or alot depending on where you live. And tell them how to be careful and that you'll always be there to talk. Sex topics can feel gross because they're really personal, too. If your child doesn't want to talk to you about their day at school, yo ucan be they're not going to want to spill about the magical pubic hair and strange odours coming from their budding boddies. So that's my take.
Posted by: whisper Jun 8 2004, 04:26 AM
Space Falcon,
Thanks for that info. I'm interested in spirituality and sexuality and how Christianity seemed to lose that aspect of being human.
Posted by: whisper Jun 8 2004, 04:37 AM
Actually I think the opinions of the young are valid here and very interesting. It's nice to see younger people speak intelligently on such subjects regardless of the 'wisdom' of age.
[Is is wise to tell children they are not wise? I think this will be my thought for the day, thanks.]
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 8 2004, 08:33 AM
Luck Mermaid,
I'm sorry if I seem snippy--this issue is one that always rattles my cage.
For the sake of clarification, I'm not looking for help here, just others' experience and opinions. I already know what I plan to do, I was just curious about how other people see the issue.
QUOTE
I wasn't trying to hurt you or tell you that I think sexuality is bad, but didn't you say 'teach them about masturbation'? That CAN and OFTEND OES get kids and you in trouble.
(emphasis added by yours truly)
Doesn't this attitude strike anyone else as self-defeating? I don't mean you personally, Luck, but our culture that teaches us that our sexuality doesn't belong to us and should only be explored with another person? Women are still taught that sex is something they'll enjoy when the right man comes along and sweeps them off their feet. What a load. The reality is that unless a woman knows her own body and can recognize her responses, it just ain't gonna happen (and what a burden we still put on men, who in all likelihood haven't got a clue either). Teaching our children that everyone masturbates, and specifically this is how guys (usually) do it, this is how girls (usually) do it--and that masturbating is the way do figure out what your body needs to be sexually fulfilled before you share it with someone else--should not be an issue that sends people running away screaming.
QUOTE
All you can do is fill in the blanks where the sex ed class leaves off, which might be a little (like the location of the clitoris and masturbation is ok) or alot depending on where you live.
This is another thing that rankles me. We are still so terrified of our sexual selves that we pass off this important job to strangers. We teach our children to walk, to talk, how to keep themselves clean and healthy, but we can't bring ourselves to talk to them about something that is going to be a huge part of their lives. How screwed up is that?
When I say "taking back our sexuality", I mean that we need to recognize that our sexuality is ours alone (in terms of "me" and not "me + somebody else").
L
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 8 2004, 08:47 AM
whisper,
QUOTE
Actually I think the opinions of the young are valid here and very interesting. It's nice to see younger people speak intelligently on such subjects regardless of the 'wisdom' of age.
I agree that the opinions of the young are valid and interesting. I wouldn't have been so offended by Space Falcon's post if he had couched it in terms of his opinion (saying "this was my experience" or "this is what I wish my parents had told me"). Instead he wrote me an instruction manual, which I found patronizing coming from someone who had no experience from which to instruct.
QUOTE
Is is wise to tell children they are not wise?
???????
I stand by my previous statements about wisdom. The curious notion that children are "wise" started with the late Victorians, who idealized and romanticized childhood (while at the same time exploiting children at every opportunity--quite a feat). Children are not wise, and it is the continued belief in this nonsense has led to the infantilization of Western culture and the current obsession with youth that makes women (and men) our age doubt their worth and makes our elderly disposable rather than respected.
L
Posted by: sexkitten Jun 8 2004, 08:51 AM
Children are often sharper, more intelligent, and more insightful than adults give them credit for. We should give credit where credit is due. Kids aren't fools, and their voices and input should be heard and treated with respect.
But wisdom... that definitely comes from experience.
Posted by: Lokmer Jun 8 2004, 09:12 AM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 8 2004, 09:33 AM)
The reality is that unless a woman knows her own body and can recognize her responses, it just ain't gonna happen (and what a burden we still put on men, who in all likelihood haven't got a clue either).
Thank you - it's quite refreshing to meet someone who notices that little factoid. It's a very shitty thing to be on the male end of that equation. Of course, in this society men are (mind boggles) conditioned to value inexperience and naivete' in a woman, but the flip side of that is that sex for a man is a big performance piece, stressful, and ultimately impersonal. It becomes akin to attempting to master a new control panel - push this button, get that response, and try not to hit the self-destruct too early. It is much more fun, satisfying, and joyful making love to a woman who knows her own body and desires. In my experience, most women (with some notable exceptions) don't begin to be sexually self-posessed until they are 25-30yrs of age, whereas men grow up experimenting with their sexuality, and are at least grudgingly approved of for doing so.
Anything you can do to give your girls posession of their sexual selves is a good thing, both for them and for the lovers they will encounter in the course of their lives.
aMaidensGrave, I can tell I'm going to like you already. Welcome to the board!
-Lokmer
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 8 2004, 09:27 AM
I have the feeling that I'm hijacking my own thread, here, but I can't seem to let it go.
sexkitten said:
QUOTE
Children are often sharper, more intelligent, and more insightful than adults give them credit for. We should give credit where credit is due.
I agree, given the qualifier ("often"). Too often, though, people assume that because something came "out of the mouths of babes", it somehow gives a statement validity.
QUOTE
Kids aren't fools,...
I'm sorry, but anyone who believes this unconditionally doesn't remember their childhood very well. How many of us here had no problem accepting that Santa Claus was real, that Christianity was real, that the idealized images we saw in movies and magazines and on tv were real. Kids are notoriously easy to fool. The world would be a better place if they were not treated as fools, however.
QUOTE
...and their voices and input should be heard and treated with respect.
Here is where I stumbled, and I apologize. I let my frustration get the better of me, and forgot the respect part. Again, I'm sorry for my snippiness.
Space Falcon is obviously an intelligent young man, but he did overstep. I wouldn't presume to instruct him on Judaism (which seems to be his area of expertise) as I lack knowledge in that area. Learning what you don't know is an important part of becoming an adult.
L
Posted by: sexkitten Jun 8 2004, 10:15 AM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 8 2004, 09:27 AM)
Too often, though, people assume that because something came "out of the mouths of babes", it somehow gives a statement validity.
I agree with that... I do love that kids can be refreshingly and surprisingly honest about their insights, but treating children like little prophets is overdoing it.
And it definitely is part of that Victorian era "children are innocent and pure" mentality you talked about earlier. "Kids are pure" and "kids evil sinners which must be tamed by adults" are two of the most destructive attitudes towards children adults can have.
An aside, ever notice people use the "mouth of babes" line when kids' remarks fit their views?
QUOTE
QUOTE
Kids aren't fools...
I'm sorry, but anyone who believes this unconditionally doesn't remember their childhood very well. ... Kids are notoriously easy to fool.
I see "able to be fooled" and "fool" as two different things... I've been trying to figure out why, exactly, but I think I'm using "fool" in terms of a person who is inherently weakminded and stupid, rather than lacking wisdom from experience. "Kids aren't dumb," would have been more clear.
QUOTE
The world would be a better place if they were not treated as fools, however.
Absolutely.
QUOTE
QUOTE
...and their voices and input should be heard and treated with respect.
Here is where I stumbled, and I apologize.
Oops! That was an off-topic statement from the topic of kids and wisdom, not a dig on you about SF. I'm sorry I was unclear on that.
QUOTE
Learning what you don't know is an important part of becoming an adult.
Ain't that the truth?
Posted by: Luck Mermaid Jun 8 2004, 11:36 AM
I wish you thebst in your endeavor, and strikinga balance where your kids know that their sexuality isn't icky and how to experiment with it, without icking them (as a PARENT -talking to their kid about sex)
.Posted by: whisper Jun 8 2004, 12:23 PM
Experience and wisdom - my mother thought she was wise according to her experience and teachings from those whom she considered wise.
I cast off her learned wisdom for wisdom gained thru my own life experiences (both good and bad) thinking that her wisdom was foolishness.
Hopefully my daughter will gain some benefit from my experience. But she too will have to acquire her own wisdom from her own experiences which she will probably want to pass down to her children, if she believes she too is wise.
I wonder what wisdoms that we acquire will be considered foolishness by her generation and the generations to come.
I think I'm off to look for 'wisdom' discussions here now...hope there are some.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jun 8 2004, 01:53 PM
Boy, I'm gonna' have to try hard not to slip up on this one. Just a lot of disagreement on my part in some things.
First, it's good that you realize the way in which you seem to have callously brushed aside SF's proffered advice, but may I suggest that it would likely mean more if you directed your apology for this at SF personally, as he is the one wronged in this instance and would almost certainly appreciate it more than an "I'm sorry" to the community at large.
On the other hand, I completely agree with you that it shouldn't be a taboo for parents to be open about natural human sexuality with their children. The idea that it's disgusting to ask such personal questions of one's caregivers is usually derived from a "sex is dirty" mind-set, or something similar. Anyone will feel more comfortable discussing a "taboo" subject with a total stranger who they'll likely never meet again, but I'd consider it a great honor to have someone trust me enough to feel that they can share such personal information with me, knowing that I'm going to be around for a while and the topic may arise between us again in the future.
However, the idea that young people's insights into life can only rarely be depended upon is--quite frankly--rather offensive to me. Yes, as a child I was "fooled," as you put it, into believing in Santa Claus, Christianity, and many other things I've since come to realize as untrue. I'm probably still being fooled now--but then who isn't? Remember that babble verse that says something about "casting the beam out of your own eye before casting the mote out of another's?" That much of it, at least, has a good point. I'm confident that none among us can lay claim to perfection. So rather than just blaming the children for their own unfortunate naivete and unwitting ignorance, and disregarding their "virtually worthless" input as you go on about your life; perhaps it would better serve us all to instead try to help them learn by doing what you can to teach them to improve their situation.
Children trust their parents about flawed things like Christianity because they have only their limited experience of being cared for by those same parents to go on. These people have never done anything to harm them or lead them astray before, so what reason would they have to suddenly start being suspicious of them now? Besides, the parents truly believe that what they are doing is in the best interest of the child, and thus far cannot be honestly blamed for their actions. They were probably raised in much the same circumstances and don't know any better--just like the child. So for you to seemingly condemn the ignorance of youth without in the same breath offering to show them a way to dispel that ignorance is rather hypocritical, to say the least.
As for the age gap, I get to jump on that wagon, as well. I'll be reaching my 19th year of life in September, whereas my Mother is approaching year-marker 54 in October. I think my Dad is 56, possibly older. (to be fair, I am the youngest of 6 kids. My oldest sibling was born fully 10 years before me) So there is a lack of understanding at times. Though I doubt we'll ever be anywhere near as close as I've been to some of my friends, our relationship has improved as I've gained experience and wisdom through maturity and aging. I've also come to realize my own error in foolishly stating over the years, "I'll always remember what it was like being a kid!" I barely remember what it was like being 12 anymore, let alone younger--and that was just 6 "short" years ago!
Anyway, I've got to head out to my driving class now, so I'll close up my dictation (see: fancy word for ranting out my ass ), step off my soapbox, and see y'all in a couple hours.
Posted by: whisper Jun 8 2004, 03:46 PM
Well, WoodSmoke...haven't been at this site long but I do remember reading some of your posts here so when I saw you had posted I thought I'd check it out.
I think you're a good example of wisdom in youth...
There is a reason that magicians have difficulty performing for children...for they are not easily fooled or distracted by the slight of hand that is necessary for creating the illusion of magic...
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 8 2004, 04:02 PM
Lokmer and sexkitten,
Thank you
whisper,
The whole discussion of wisdom is growing increasingly odd given that most of us are gathered here to support each other in the rejection of the "wisdom" that was passed down to us. I still maintain that the getting of wisdom requires experience, and even once you've got it, the wisdom really only applies to you. Like truth, one person's wisdom is another person's codswallop.
Space Falcon,
I'm sorry I snapped at you and that my tone was dismissive.
woodsmoke,
QUOTE
However, the idea that young people's insights into life can only rarely be depended upon is--quite frankly--rather offensive to me. Yes, as a child I was "fooled," as you put it, into believing in Santa Claus, Christianity, and many other things I've since come to realize as untrue. I'm probably still being fooled now--but then who isn't? Remember that babble verse that says something about "casting the beam out of your own eye before casting the mote out of another's?" That much of it, at least, has a good point. I'm confident that none among us can lay claim to perfection. So rather than just blaming the children for their own unfortunate naivete and unwitting ignorance, and disregarding their "virtually worthless" input as you go on about your life; perhaps it would better serve us all to instead try to help them learn by doing what you can to teach them to improve their situation.
I believe that young peoples' insights can be depended upon on subjects within the realm of their experience. I don't claim perfection (far, far from it). I do claim to have a few more years of experience under my belt than I'd like to admit to. I'm not blaming children (or young adults) for their naivete (nor do I think it "unfortunate"--just natural, as is their ignorance), and I don't pretend that I have anything to teach anyone to improve their situation.
QUOTE
So for you to seemingly condemn the ignorance of youth without in the same breath offering to show them a way to dispel that ignorance is rather hypocritical, to say the least.
Again:
I'm not condemning the "ignorance of youth", as you put it. What I am condemning is the presumption that A) young people are my peers, and
I would seek advice from someone without experience in the subject at hand. I wouldn't ask my 8-year-old for investment advice, and I wouldn't ask a non-parent for parenting advice, simple as that.The only thing that will "dispel that ignorance" is the passage of time.
L
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 8 2004, 04:11 PM
QUOTE (whisper @ Jun 8 2004, 03:46 PM)
There is a reason that magicians have difficulty performing for children...for they are not easily fooled or distracted by the slight of hand that is necessary for creating the illusion of magic...
I'm keen to know on what you base this assertion.
L
Posted by: woodsmoke Jun 8 2004, 05:53 PM
Well, I can't provide external sources or anything, but for myself I pretty well always knew that what magicians did wasn't "real magic" as portrayed in works of ficition. Impressive, yes, but I've always known I could do exactly what they're doing if I put in the time and training necessary.
Posted by: whisper Jun 8 2004, 07:02 PM
By the way Woodsmoke what would you say has contributed most to your own pursuit of 'wisdom' or the shedding of imposed 'wisdom' if you'd rather? How much would you attribute to lets say, having older parents, having older siblings, etc. Or would you attribute it to your own drive and personality.
Maiden, that was the point of one of my earlier posts...the seeming relativity of 'wisdom'. In some cultures there are traditions that usher men and women into adulthood that acknowledge sexuality. Some of a more positive nature such as an older tribeswoman who initiates a young man into sexual maturity. Others of a very negative nature such as removal of the clitoris to prevent the woman from being tempted into unacceptable sexual activities. To these cultures this is considered 'wise'.
To anyone else...Personally, I am not here in pursuit of 'healing'. I am simply here to express ideas and/or experiences (even to the extreme if that aids in expressing things more clearly) and hopefully to expand my own limited understanding of things. I am not committed to any specific ideas at the moment...merely exploring possibilities.
However, I will admit that I lean toward 'poetic' expression of certain things in my mannor of communicating that might take some getting used to for some people, although I'm trying to control that tendency here. I would probably be considered impractical and irrational... But what the hell....
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jun 8 2004, 07:36 PM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 8 2004, 02:54 AM)
The fact of the matter is that you are very young. Wisdom comes from experience, and experience, by its nature, happens over time. You are clearly intelligent, so I'm sure that this will make sense to you.
I just want to clairify why you're response was offensive to me:
You assumed that I was basically making this up on the spot.
Believe me that I have done extensive research into many subjects other than Judaism (child development being a one of the many) and what I emphisized (Openness and honesty) is not all that far from what I (and I can only assume you as well) have read from people who have spent their lives on the subject. It is not as if I am completely ignorant of the subject, pulling random thoughts out of the air.
Having children (and raising them well) is extremely important to me. I have spent much time thinking about children I will have and how I will handle various situations. I have my own plans for having children and raising them in my own way, and my own way not nessicarily applying to other people. Not all philosophies will nessicarily agree either, but that was my compilation (on this part of child development) somewhat based in my predetermined preferances as a one day parent.
I'm sure we all can agree on this:
Children are chaotic individuals; They go their own way.
Posted by: Luck Mermaid Jun 8 2004, 07:56 PM
QUOTE
Some of a more positive nature such as an older tribeswoman who initiates a young man into sexual maturity. Others of a very negative nature such as removal of the clitoris to prevent the woman from being tempted into unacceptable sexual activities. To these cultures this is considered 'wise'.
I do'nt think an 'older tribeswoman' is all that different than marrying a thirteen year old to a fourty year old. Girls are abused because they're seen as 'objects' and taught not to speak up or that it is their fault. But boys are abused because they are taught that they're studs and are 'lucky' and have to want sex all the time.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jun 8 2004, 08:52 PM
Man, that's a tough one Whisper. I'll try to give you a response now, but I'm going to need to think about that one for a while.
I'd have to say some of my wisdom--both that I keep and that I gain in discarding things--has definitely come from my own personality. I'm about the furthest thing from a people-person as is possible. I value my solitude so much I'm practically a schizoid. Not spending my time with other people left me to pursue other venues--such as reading. By 6th grade I was reading on an advanced high school level. When I am with people I'm almost always the quiet one in the circle, often observing others and listening to their experiences, thus gaining insight and wisdom second-hand from them.
Also, I've always had a fiercely independent personality. Even my Mother attests to that, I remember her telling me on many occasions that I was always eager and quick to learn new ways to do things for myself. Crawling, walking, running, biking, cooking, chores, etc. I've never liked depending on someone else for anything in my life, and that has most definitely driven me to experience a lot of things for myself that many people my age won't experience for a few years yet.
Having older siblings has definitely helped too, though. I saw the less glamorous effects of fighting and (serious) drug abuse. (Normally I don't have a problem with drug use, but when it starts affecting other people it's time to call spades) I also saw the teasing and sibling rivalries that went on between my bothers, though I was largely sheltered from this due to my lucky position as the youngest. I've seen the way older siblings (IMO) cruelly torment younger siblings simply for the sadisitic pleasure of "watching them squirm," as it were. I've also seen and personally done a lot of the underhanded backlash that younger siblings use to get back at their older brothers. That's something my nephews hate about me. One time in particular the older was picking on his little brother and I got after him; then five minutes later I was back working on the younger for trying to use his "innocence" solely to get his brother in trouble. Aside from the fact that I'm just not very comfortable caring for children, that's one reason I've never made a very good babysitter--the kids hate me for being fair and not letting either of them get away with anything (inappropriate).
I'm gonna' have to think about the parents one for a while. As I said in the previous post, my parents and I have never had a very close relationship. It wasn't a bad relationship, just kind of a "neutral territory," I suppose you could say. I didn't bother them and they usually didn't bother me. It's only recently that we've actually started having discussions and such about things even as semi-personal as politics--religious differences have thus far not been a serious issue, though I errantly feared they may be at one time. It doesn't help matters that my Dad and I are the two most stubborn human beings on the planet, excepting possibly Grammy--Dad got it from her and I got it from him. Despite that I'm only about 1/4 Norweigian (sp), I've got the bull-headed stubborn-will of a born-and-raised Norseman. So between the Old Man and myself, at least, negotiation is not our strong point.
Plus we just all love to argue--and by all I mean everyone in my family. Both sides o' the Old Man's family, both sides o' my Mom's family, my parents and all us kids. We'll carry on a good argument for hours after it's been settled just because we enjoy shouting back and forth.
Even though our relationship is becoming more open and comfortable, however, I doubt we'll ever be as truly close as some people are to their parents. As I said, I've got a very independent personality, so I don't usually ask for advice or something of the like (even when I need it, unfortunately).
Posted by: whisper Jun 9 2004, 04:05 AM
Luck Mermaid,
I suppose it could be considered that way...except that marriage is generally more of a social committment and usually more long term than an experience of being initiated into sex might be.
As far as objectivism goes I think you are correct in that it often goes both ways and in many different situations.
Posted by: whisper Jun 9 2004, 04:35 AM
Great response so far Woodsmoke. I can definately relate to a lot of what you've written in regard to personality. I was very headstrong myself (but not overtly so) and am also quiet, introspective, and reclusive for the most part and definately need my times of aloneness.
However, I did not grow up in an openly argumentive environment. My mother ruled with an 'iron hand' and one did not want to cross her. Fortunately my father was the opposite and I am more like him.
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 9 2004, 08:59 AM
Space Falcon,
QUOTE
I just want to clairify why you're response was offensive to me:
You assumed that I was basically making this up on the spot.
I'll clarify why your post was offensive to me:
A) You assumed I wanted you to tell me what to do*,
You wrote with an air of authority that you cannot possess.I did not assume that you were making things up. I did assume that you were repeating things that you had read. That would have been fine, had you said, "this is what I've learned from my research", but you did not. If you had I would simply have pointed out that I'm not interested in what the experts have to say (for one thing, I've already heard it, and for another--while it may be a cliche, the following is also true: ask 12 experts the same question and you're likely to get 12 different answers).
I'm sticking with my original assertion: you don't have the experience to be giving advice on this subject. Parenting is like sex and war, in that you can read and study and research all you want, but until you've actually experienced it, you don't really know what it's like, and you don't know how you're going to handle it.
That said, if you'd like to tell me about your experience---what you wish your parents had told you about sex, for example, or what you think you would tell any children you might have someday, I'm all ears. Again, I'm sorry that my tone was dismissive--my reply to your post was not very grown up.
Oh, and about this:
QUOTE
I'm sure we all can agree on this:
Children are chaotic individuals; They go their own way.
No, we don't all agree. Children are individuals, yes, but making the blanket statement that they are chaotic and go their own way is no different from saying that teenagers are arrogant and think they know everything.
L
* Since I'm feeling charitable today, I'll chalk this up to the differences in the way females and males communicate. When a female presents an issue, her intention is usually to kick it around, look at it from all the angles, ask for other people's opinions and experiences. When presented with an issue, a male usually sees it as a problem and proceeds to try to fix it. The female reaction to this "fixing" is usually negative. In point of fact, it pisses us off.
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jun 9 2004, 10:45 AM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 9 2004, 12:59 PM)
I'll clarify why your post was offensive to me:
A) You assumed I wanted you to tell me what to do*,
You wrote with an air of authority that you cannot possess.I did not assume that you were making things up. I did assume that you were repeating things that you had read. That would have been fine, had you said, "this is what I've learned from my research", but you did not. If you had I would simply have pointed out that I'm not interested in what the experts have to say (for one thing, I've already heard it, and for another--while it may be a cliche, the following is also true: ask 12 experts the same question and you're likely to get 12 different answers).
I'm sticking with my original assertion: you don't have the experience to be giving advice on this subject.
That said, if you'd like to tell me about your experience...
QUOTE
I'm sure we all can agree on this:
Children are chaotic individuals; They go their own way.
No, we don't all agree. Children are individuals, yes, but making the blanket statement that they are chaotic and go their own way is no different from saying that teenagers are arrogant and think they know everything.
A) you said:
QUOTE
I guess what I'm asking is: can we tell our daughters how to masturbate?
Simply saying no is the kind of lack of information that wastes everyone's time. Explinations to your answer help people understand why you answer the way you do. It was advice. I listed it as such. I'm not forcing you to follow it, nor did I say that it is the only possible way that it should be done. Ask your questions, get answers.
and yet you take the very authority here by assuming my knowlege again. Related authority is just as valid as the original if intact.It's more than what I learned, it's what I agree with. You can ask 12 different experts 12 simliar questions with 12 different answers. If you take something from those, you are not going to have 12 different opinions. You will have one opinion that either you took from one, or put together from several or even all. Forming an opinion is what is going to happen at any level. Not everyone's opinion is going to be 100% on the mark 100% of the time. The only real search is for what works a majority of the time.
Your original assertion is that if you don't experiance it, you can't advise for or against it. Experiance is not required for everything, parenting is a unique one each time, but like everything else you do not need experiance to have a qualified idea to it's nature and desired path. Not every one has experianced war, but that doesn't keep them from knowing that war is not always a good thing.
I believe it is a saying that "The best of advice can come from the strangest of places", and at the least you should have taken it into consideration.
My parents were rather unloving people, and I'm lucky to be sane (for the most part).
Perhaps I might explain that a little more: Chaotic. Chaos. Children come in flavors of Chaos. Children are born without previous knowlege of how everything works. They are essencially blank and are (with exception of genetic extremes) raised with the values of the parent for the most part, and only later will they usually confirm what they really believe, although their opinions have been influenced by the parents.
As for male vrs female, studies do show that they work differently, but the problem here was just a bad start (via dismissivness and hostility).
I hope we can move past it.
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 9 2004, 11:07 AM
SpaceFalcon,
QUOTE
Simply saying no is the kind of lack of information that wastes everyone's time. Explinations to your answer help people understand why you answer the way you do. It was advice.
Saying no (or yes), and then explaining why you feel that way about it does not waste anyone's time. You did not explain, you advised. I did not ask for your advice, nor do I welcome it.
QUOTE
It's more than what I learned, it's what I agree with.
What you agree with based on what, exactly? Your own childhood? Fine, then tell me that is how you would have preferred to have been treated while you were growing up. Don't try to sound as though you're basing this advice on your own experience in raising children. Again:
QUOTE
Parenting is like sex and war, in that you can read and study and research all you want, but until you've actually experienced it, you don't really know what it's like, and you don't know how you're going to handle it.
QUOTE
Your original assertion is that if you don't experiance it, you can't advise for or against it. Experiance is not required for everything, parenting is a unique one each time, but like everything else you do not need experiance to have a qualified idea to it's nature and desired path. Not every one has experianced war, but that doesn't keep them from knowing that war is not always a good thing.
You may feel that you have a qualified idea as to the nature and desired path of parenting, but the experience will teach you that the path doesn't follow the map. You may know that war is bad, but do you know what it feels like?
QUOTE
I believe it is a saying that "The best of advice can come from the strangest of places", and at the least you should have taken it into consideration.
I don't even know how to respond to that.
QUOTE
Children are born without previous knowlege of how everything works. They are essencially blank and are (with exception of genetic extremes) raised with the values of the parent for the most part, and only later will they usually confirm what they really believe, although their opinions have been influenced by the parents.
Children may be born without knowledge of how the world works, but they aren't blank.
L
Edited because I pushed the wrong damned button.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jun 9 2004, 12:31 PM
It's definitely possible I'm just receiving the wrong message here L, but it's extremely difficult not to get the feeling that what you've been saying is something along the lines of "Run along, little one, the grown-ups are talking now."
I'm trying to reread and gain some understanding of the whole issue here--which is difficult because my own youth usually starts to flare up whenever I read a sentence which can be mistaken for slandering my lack of experience, despite that I know that's not the intent. It just seems to me like you're simply brushing aside any input by anyone below a certain age level as if you believe that anyone below that mark can't possibly understand or contribute anything to the discussion.
If you disagree with something SF has posted on the grounds that you don't believe he possesses sufficient understanding of the issue, that's your call to make. Please, however, don't make broad generalizations like you seem to be doing simply on the basis of age. Everyone has had different experiences in their lives, and everyone deserves a chance to be heard out before one decides they don't know enough to continue participating.
Posted by: blessed75 Jun 9 2004, 01:09 PM
QUOTE (aMaidensGrave @ Jun 7 2004, 05:22 PM)
I don't think I'm alone in my opinion that Christianity is toxic to women, especially to women with brains who recognize that we are sexual creatures. Women of my generation (okay, I admit it, I'm 40...I'm trying to come to terms with it) were taught that nice girls don't, only men enjoy sex, and you should never touch yourself "down there". Any of this sound familiar?
What I'm wondering now is how to get past all of that repression and teach our daughters that nice girls, in fact, do, and that sex is supposed to be enjoyable for them, too. Finding that out for myself took many years and a lot of guilt, something that I wouldn't wish on anyone. Obviously it's different for men (I mean, if you're a guy, has there ever been a day when you didn't touch yourself? A guy's gotta take a leak once in a while, right?), but for girls it's not always readily apparent that some of that stuff down there is fun, you know?
I guess what I'm asking is: can we tell our daughters how to masturbate?
It's not that I have any problem discussing sex with anyone. If anything, I'm too frank for most of the people I know IRL. I'm just wondering if it's outside the realm of what I should be doing as a parent.
What do y'all think?
L
*************************************************
A little background:
I have twins, a girl and a boy. They'll be 9 at the end of June (and before y'all freak out, I'm not planning on telling my daughter--or son, for that matter--anything beyond the basics of reproduction until they are teenagers). There has never been a time when they didn't know that boys and girls are made differently. My DH and I try to treat nudity like a normal part of life (we don't lock the doors when we shower, the kids know that we sleep au naturale). They both know where babies come from, and they both know what kinds of changes their bodies are going to go through when they hit puberty (my poor daughter shrieks every time I say that word, though ). I like to think that we're instilling a positive attitude toward sex, but my own perception is so skewed that I'm never sure when I've gone too far--don't you just love that Catholic guilt?
Here's what I think - my daughter is only 8 months old and has discovered ALREADY that she likes playing with herself. My 2 year old likes to whip his penis out at the grocery store and yell out - MAMA - PENNNNNISSSSSSSSS! Yes, son, that's your penis now put it away, we don't take it out in public. I grew up thinking that sexuality was okay. When I was young my mom sat me down and talked to me about sex - including masterbation and let me know that it was okay. I of course already KNEW what masterbation was but didn't know what the word meant. She basically told me, touching myself down there and it feels nice. I guess what I'm saying is, I'm pretty open with sex - I will be with my kids too. But I already knew what masterbation was and how to do it but let me tell you - hearing my mother explained to me that it was a natural thing to do and not "dirty", really did ease my mind...........did that make sense?
Posted by: blessed75 Jun 9 2004, 01:12 PM
and may I add - how in the HELL did such a simple innocent question get turned into this big scientific debacle????? Seriously - I really wanna know - maybe I'm too simply minded. I think I like that I am..........
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 9 2004, 02:41 PM
Blessed75,
Thanks for your response. It made perfect sense to me (but then I'm a little odd, too ).
QUOTE
how in the HELL did such a simple innocent question get turned into this big scientific debacle?????
That was my fault. I lost my temper and behaved in a manner that wouldn't have made my mother proud. Not my finest hour.
L
Posted by: Luck Mermaid Jun 9 2004, 02:58 PM
Maiden, stop arguing with Space Falcon - that's MY job. I had it first and you can't take it. So move along, missy.
Posted by: aMaidensGrave Jun 9 2004, 03:46 PM
woodsmoke,
QUOTE
It's definitely possible I'm just receiving the wrong message here L, but it's extremely difficult not to get the feeling that what you've been saying is something along the lines of "Run along, little one, the grown-ups are talking now."
Yes, I did say that, and it was wrong to respond that way. Once again, I'm sorry.
It's not slander to point out someone's lack of experience, it's a simple statement of fact. I would never presume to advise someone on how to handle menopause, as I haven't yet experienced it. I could give my opinion on how I think it might be, but it would be wrong for me to say "Here's my advice" and proceed to tell someone what to do. Can you see the arrogance in that?
I'm sorry, also, if it has seem that I'm dismissing someone's opinion on the basis of their age (though I have said in this thread, repeatedly, that I think the opinions and insights of the young are valid), when what we're actually talking about is experience. I would be just as offended if someone half my age gave me advice on how to handle turning 40. There are some cases where I can assume someone's experience on the basi