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Posted by: Astreja Nov 16 2004, 09:03 PM
Here's something that has puzzled me for some time.

I go out for Sunday brunch on a regular basis, and one of my favourite haunts is right across the street from a church. Over the years I've had one or two unsatisfactory encounters with members of this particular congregation. Nothing too extreme, just your run-of-the-mill unwanted proselytizing.

When I'm out on my Sunday morning romp, I always make a point of wearing something conspicuously non-Christian, with the express intent of attracting the attention of the more aggressive evangelists.

But... why? What's the psychology behind this? Why am I trying to bait them when they're leaving me alone? Anyone else experience something like this, and did you manage to resolve it?

Astreja

Posted by: Asuryan Nov 16 2004, 09:32 PM
Hmm... well here's my two cents.

When they come to you and try to proselitize, they are indirectly showing you, and showering onto you, their pride for their religion. They must have understood that you are neither christian nor interested in their gospel, but they keep annoying you with it.

So what do you do? You wear something conspicuously non-christian, because...

Well, I think it is for 1 of these 2 reasons, or perhaps both:

1) It's because you took it like a challenge. They're challenging, or have challenged in the past, your beliefs, and since it's always possible that they try to preach to you again, by wearing something non-christian you are putting on your helmet and wearing your shiny ceremonial armor. "If they want to fight I'm ready, I won't run away!" Sounds cool! wicked.gif

2) It's a little revenge. They annoyed you, so you are thinking "well you annoyed me with your religious views, and now I'll annoy you since I know that you feel that way when you see someone showing pridefully his/her non-christianity."

Sounds reasonable?

*in a cavernous, Jack T. Chick tone*
I Don't Have All The Answers, though. Since I've not accepted Christ as my saviour, I could be wrong.
*leaves a pamphlet of blasphemous jokes in a corner of the room, cleverly disguising it as a tract*

Posted by: saviorforsale Nov 16 2004, 09:40 PM
I get the same urges. There are times when I wish I had the billboard on the back of my car that said "FUCK GOD!"

but when it comes down to it I dont want to waste my time talking to a wall( a fundy)

Posted by: erik the awful Nov 16 2004, 10:18 PM
Astreja,

I'm VERY familier with that feeling. I've got a couple of little fantasies I'll share:

1. I've always wanted to interupt a church service with AC/DC's Hell's Bells, or something that would feel demonic and scary, piped through the church's PA system at volumes so high you can FEEL the treble notes in your bones and your ears ring for days.
QUOTE
Hell's Bells, Satan's comin' to you!
Hell's Bells, he's ringing them now!
Hell's Bells, the temperature's high!
Hell's Bells, across the sky...
Hell's Bells, they're takin' you down.
Hell's Bells, they're draggin' you around.
Hell's Bells, gonna split the night!
Hell's Bells, there's no way to fight! Yeah!


2. I was raised Seventh Day Adventist. I've always wanted to obtain a side of Pork and BBQ it all day long in the most stinky and smoky way possible in down town LomaLinda or College Place or some other place where SDA's pile up. (Not that I'd eat it, I've still got a hang up there. Oh well.)

If I ever get to the place when I'm willing to be offensive enough to put a FUCK GOD bumper sticker on my car, It's gonna be a FUCK GOD UP THE ASS bumper sticker.

And for me, it's all about revenge.

Posted by: Astreja Nov 16 2004, 10:52 PM
Ah yes, the "R" word. I want something akin to revenge as well, but it's not 100% clear in my mind what I'm avenging. I was not raised as a Xian, but ever since my childhood I've been fighting to stay out of the Xian world.

Historically speaking... Around the turn of the "other" millenium, King Olaf of Norway (one of my ancestral lands) murdered many of my ancestors' friends and family in the name of converting them to a bloody foreign belief system. And then came the Burning Times, and the murder of even more innocents in all parts of Europe.

Don't even get me started on Pope "Innocent" and his feline fatwah...

Astreja

Posted by: Lila Bender Nov 16 2004, 11:47 PM
When I was in the SCA, we'd dress up in our mediveal clothes (garb) and go out into public. We called it "freaking the mundanes". Is this freaking the fundies?
I get a real kick out of flaunting my daughter's witchiness to the christians on the parent council. I think it's like knowing you're free and wanting them to know it too. Being different and wanting that recognized. It's not enough to not be a sheeple, we want the sheeples to know it.

Posted by: ChefRanden Nov 17 2004, 10:14 AM
I just ordered some buttons from Betty Bowers, with provocation in mind. I don't have enough Christians in my life. We need enemies to sweeten life. Nothing like a good enemy to get your juices flowing.

Posted by: Libertus Nov 17 2004, 10:27 AM
QUOTE (ChefRanden @ Nov 17 2004, 09:14 AM)
I just ordered some buttons from Betty Bowers, with provocation in mind. I don't have enough Christians in my life. We need enemies to sweeten life. Nothing like a good enemy to get your juices flowing.

Definately. I think that this is one of the things we're lacking these days on the boards. The registration restriction has seriously chased off our enemies. This is a good and bad thing.

Libertus

Posted by: Reach Nov 17 2004, 11:24 AM
QUOTE (Astreja @ Nov 16 2004, 08:03 PM)
Here's something that has puzzled me for some time.

...I always make a point of wearing something conspicuously non-Christian, with the express intent of attracting the attention of the more aggressive evangelists.

But... why? What's the psychology behind this? Why am I trying to bait them when they're leaving me alone? Anyone else experience something like this, and did you manage to resolve it?


Astreja, I'll ask Loren to comment on this, perhaps later today. Like you, I'm not completely sure about what is at the root of this and there are many reasons and I believe every case is a bit different from the next. I know Loren can relate to what you are talking about.

One of the reasons we might fantasize about antagonizing Christians, especially the evangelizing fundamentalists, has got to be due to some residual anger and resentment.

We bought a rancid gospel and we need to release the toxins. Isn't that part of Anger Management?

Reach

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 17 2004, 11:25 AM
Astreja-

Shortly after I stopped believing, I wanted to challenge every christian I know! I still feel like debating them sometimes, and for me, it may be because I want to prove that I'm right, primarily because I wish someone had done that when I believed; sooner than they had.

I don't know, maybe it is revenge; but it may the same reason they try to convert us. They attempt a conversion under the guise of saving our souls, but I feel in reality it is because they believe that they are privy to information that no one else (or a select few) know.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Nov 17 2004, 11:35 AM
QUOTE (Reach @ Nov 17 2004, 10:24 AM)
QUOTE (Astreja @ Nov 16 2004, 08:03 PM)
Here's something that has puzzled me for some time.

...I always make a point of wearing something conspicuously non-Christian, with the express intent of attracting the attention of the more aggressive evangelists.

But... why? What's the psychology behind this? Why am I trying to bait them when they're leaving me alone? Anyone else experience something like this, and did you manage to resolve it?


Astreja, I'll ask Loren to comment on this, perhaps later today. Like you, I'm not completely sure about what is at the root of this and there are many reasons and I believe every case is a bit different from the next. I know Loren can relate to what you are talking about.

One of the reasons we might fantasize about antagonizing Christians, especially the evangelizing fundamentalists, has got to be due to some residual anger and resentment.

We bought a rancid gospel and we need to release the toxins. Isn't that part of Anger Management?

Reach

Or maybe we are like ex-smokers?

"I am no longer addicted to that nasty habit and neither should you be."

GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

I know I have a little disgust towards christianity, where that comes from I think is from me wanting them to be strong enough to live their lives on their own. I think this is a problem for me and I know I shouldn't feel that way, but darn it, I want them to see the flower for what it really is...thorns and all (life).

I just thought of something else...I also think it is reminder to us that we were also as gullible as them at one time. No one likes to be reminded of being gullible. In this case, it really doesn't help to know that others fell for it also, so we want to wake them up to reality.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Nov 17 2004, 11:37 AM
QUOTE (MonkeyBoy @ Nov 17 2004, 10:25 AM)
Astreja-

Shortly after I stopped believing, I wanted to challenge every christian I know! I still feel like debating them sometimes, and for me, it may be because I want to prove that I'm right, primarily because I wish someone had done that when I believed; sooner than they had.

I don't know, maybe it is revenge; but it may the same reason they try to convert us. They attempt a conversion under the guise of saving our souls, but I feel in reality it is because they believe that they are privy to information that no one else (or a select few) know.

Yes, but instead of wanting to save souls, we want to save lives???

Posted by: Lokmer Nov 17 2004, 12:35 PM
QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Nov 17 2004, 10:35 AM)
I know I have a little disgust towards christianity, where that comes from I think is from me wanting them to be strong enough to live their lives on their own. I think this is a problem for me and I know I shouldn't feel that way, but darn it, I want them to see the flower for what it really is...thorns and all (life).

You know, up until last week, I didn't have much disgust toward Christianity - I just didn't have a great fondness for Christians as a group (though I still liked individuals). Of course, I didn't like Christians as a group when I WAS a Christian either. Now...though I hate to admit it, I am having some delightful fantasies involving wanton sacred symbol desecration (or, indeed, Paper God desecration in the style of Rameus - albeit with an audience of Xians tied up Clockwork Orange style). Particularly the kind that will result in certain Christians having a genuine psychotic break rather than just playing at it.

-Lokmer the disgruntled vengeful prick

Posted by: sexkitten Nov 17 2004, 12:48 PM
QUOTE
Now...though I hate to admit it, I am having some delightful fantasies involving wanton sacred symbol desecration


At times like this, I have to ask myself... Is it really so wrong to want toss a bible in the woodchipper and mold it into a giant paper mache dildo to shove up a preacher's ass?

Posted by: Reach Nov 17 2004, 12:50 PM
QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Nov 17 2004, 10:37 AM)
Yes, but instead of wanting to save souls, we want to save lives???

We changed schools but are we still evangelists? ;-)

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Nov 17 2004, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (Reach @ Nov 17 2004, 11:50 AM)
QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Nov 17 2004, 10:37 AM)
Yes, but instead of wanting to save souls, we want to save lives???

We changed schools but are we still evangelists? ;-)

AAARRRGGHHH! The horror!

Maybe, but we're the right ones! happydance.gif

People wouldn't want to listen to smokers claim that they are right would they?

GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

Posted by: MalaInSe Nov 17 2004, 05:02 PM
QUOTE (Lila Bender @ Nov 16 2004, 10:47 PM)
When I was in the SCA, we'd dress up in our mediveal clothes (garb) and go out into public. We called it "freaking the mundanes". Is this freaking the fundies?
I get a real kick out of flaunting my daughter's witchiness to the christians on the parent council. I think it's like knowing you're free and wanting them to know it too. Being different and wanting that recognized. It's not enough to not be a sheeple, we want the sheeples to know it.

ROFL.

I'm in the SCA, Lila.

Knew there was something I liked about you. wicked.gif

Ren

Posted by: jaded Nov 17 2004, 05:43 PM
QUOTE (sexkitten @ Nov 17 2004, 03:48 PM)
At times like this, I have to ask myself... Is it really so wrong to want toss a bible in the woodchipper and mold it into a giant paper mache dildo to shove up a preacher's ass?

Not at all.... It sounds perfectly reasonable to me! lmao_99.gif

Posted by: jaded Nov 17 2004, 05:55 PM
QUOTE (Reach @ Nov 17 2004, 03:50 PM)
QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Nov 17 2004, 10:37 AM)
Yes, but instead of wanting to save souls, we want to save lives???

We changed schools but are we still evangelists? ;-)

I went through the stage of "fundy" ex christian. I had to argue with everyone I knew who had strong beliefs. Now I pretty much ignore peoples religious preferences unless they are really obnoxious about it or they are potentially hurting themselves or someone else (ie christian science, faith healing, etc.)

Sure I still love to debate, but I almost never bring it up anymore and am a bit more polite in my approach (no atheist eversion of fire and brimstone).

On the other hand, all we are asking people to do is use logic and look at what they can really see in front of them.

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted by: Cerise Nov 17 2004, 11:10 PM
I used to roam around looking for Christians to argue with. Now I don't really care. I'll still debate, but they've got to come to me, not the other way around. I'm too lazy to look for fights anymore. woohoo.gif

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 19 2004, 05:50 AM
QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ Nov 17 2004, 01:37 PM)
QUOTE (MonkeyBoy @ Nov 17 2004, 10:25 AM)
Astreja-

Shortly after I stopped believing, I wanted to challenge every christian I know!  I still feel like debating them sometimes, and for me, it may be because I want to prove that I'm right, primarily because I wish someone had done that when I believed; sooner than they had.

I don't know, maybe it is revenge; but it may the same reason they try to convert us.  They attempt a conversion under the guise of saving our souls, but I feel in reality it is because they believe that they are privy to information that no one else (or a select few) know.

Yes, but instead of wanting to save souls, we want to save lives???

True, but both camps are convinced they are right; we because of the lack of evidence, them because they believe inspite of the lack of evidence.

I like to debate christians, well the ones that have a clue anyway, to help hone my debating skills. I try to not make assertions, commit fallacies or argue from authority. It's hard to do, especially when they do it. The overwhelming majority of the time, the debate ends with the believer stating that they believe what they want. Which is fine, but that's my point; it's based on faith not fact and therefore does not belong in the classroom or politics.

The other times, it ends with them name calling, condemning me to hell or other such nonsense. The only time that I ever got pissed (and made it clear) was when I met a follower of Rod Parsley's. Ugh.
I now work with many World Harvest people; it's like you have to be a member of the club to be promoted or recognized.

-Jeebus

Posted by: Asuryan Nov 22 2004, 06:57 PM
I'm still in the "Hunting for a kill" phase of my atheism. I feel almost compelled to engage in a logical debate with every strong belief Christian that I meet.
At the moment I'm enjoying it, is it wrong to do so? wicked.gif


Posted by: lalli Nov 23 2004, 05:32 PM
Asuryan, Astreja, I feel exactly the same way. I'm currently very much in the 'bitter and resentful' phase of my deconversion, and I rant/debate about Christianity any chance I get. I'm also tempted to go back to attending the church I was in when I deconverted; I'm not entirely sure why, but I get the distinct feeling that deep down, I'm spoiling for a fight just as you are.

I'm unsure of the full reasons behind this, but I have a hypothesis that's probably one piece of the puzzle:

I'm angry.
I'm angry at Christianity for telling me I am a worthless sinner who deserves eternal damnation. I'm angry at Christianity for telling me to hate and fear my sexuality. I'm angry at Christianity for doing damage to my self-esteem and self-image that I'm still working hard to repair.
I'm angry at the people responsible for brainwashing me, from birth, to believe in Christianity. I'm angry at the people responsible for brainwashing them. (I grew up in a Chinese Christian church where everyone seemed to come from a family that was Christian through generations, so everyone grew up brainwashed like me.)
I'm angry at myself, for buying into a totally irrational lie for so long.

In my case, anger manifests most naturally as confrontation; hence, I want to confront and battle the belief system and believers which are the source of my anger. And I want to win that battle; there's a part of me that needs tangible evidence that I really am stronger than the belief system that crippled me for so long.

Posted by: Asuryan Nov 23 2004, 05:48 PM
Well, sometimes some christian tries to get me to feel guilty. Usually it's because I just trashed him or posed him some questions he's not able to answer. Then he goes:
"Aren't you ashamed at what you're doing? You are trying to destroy people's beliefs. You don't realize that people suffer when you tell them that something they believe with all their hearts isn't true. Why do you feel compelled to talk about religion? Can't you just ignore religion as a whole, and entirely avoid speaking of faith with christians?"
Etc.
Now at the beginning of that rant I feel a bit guilty. After all, I think, those people have based part of their lives (for some of them, all of their lives) on their belief in god and angels and jesus and such. Who am I to destroy their illusions? Isn't that a bit like going to preschooling children and telling them that Santa Claus doesn't exist?

But then something inside me flares up and I feel that I'm doing the right thing. I feel it for a lot of reasons that my english isn't allowing me to fully express...

QUOTE
Asuryan, Astreja, I feel exactly the same way.


...But then a kind soul comes and expresses those reasons with almost adamantine clarity. Thank you lalli! Cryotanknotworthy.gif Cryotanknotworthy.gif Cryotanknotworthy.gif

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Nov 23 2004, 05:52 PM
You people MAKE ME SICK. YOU should BE ashamed of yourselves. You are all freaks and degenerates. Decent society shouldn't ALLOW YOUR KIND. PIGS, INFIDELS, BABY EATERS!

*Mad_Gerbil does his part to make the folks at exchristian.net feel at home*

Posted by: erik the awful Nov 23 2004, 07:25 PM
QUOTE (lalli @ Nov 23 2004, 04:32 PM)

I'm angry.
I'm angry at Christianity for telling me I am a worthless sinner who deserves eternal damnation. I'm angry at Christianity for telling me to hate and fear my sexuality. I'm angry at Christianity for doing damage to my self-esteem and self-image that I'm still working hard to repair.
I'm angry at the people responsible for brainwashing me, from birth, to believe in Christianity. I'm angry at the people responsible for brainwashing them. (I grew up in a Chinese Christian church where everyone seemed to come from a family that was Christian through generations, so everyone grew up brainwashed like me.)
I'm angry at myself, for buying into a totally irrational lie for so long.

In my case, anger manifests most naturally as confrontation; hence, I want to confront and battle the belief system and believers which are the source of my anger. And I want to win that battle; there's a part of me that needs tangible evidence that I really am stronger than the belief system that crippled me for so long.

lalli,
Thanks for expressing well what I've been unable to express. That thar's a damn good post in my humble but correct opinion.

I've got so much rage over the whole thing it's hard to pick it apart and express WHY.
Thanks again.

Posted by: Astreja Nov 23 2004, 08:54 PM
I know I've been angry for a long, long time. Very angry indeed! (paces furiously as she polishes her Space Mod-u-la-tor)

The part that hurts the most is when I sit down and think about the pseudo-logic snares Xians set for unbelievers. Particularly the "if you don't know, why not believe so you don't go to Hell?" line. (Was it Pascal who said that?)

I finally came to terms with my side of the issue, a number of years ago.

First, I realized that only a sadistic maniac could enjoy Heaven while people were suffering in the Other Place.

That led to taking the "Bodhisattva Vow" -- I'm not leaving anyone behind to suffer if I can possibly help it.

And finally, I adopted the old Greek saying "If the gods do something base, then they are *not* gods."

Of all the things Paul said, the only one I agree with is the non-coexistence of love and fear. You can't love something that you fear... End of statement.

Astreja


Posted by: Pseudonym Nov 24 2004, 03:02 AM
There may be a wider, socio-cultural implication to this particular aspect of your behaviour too; Christianity and biblical morality is extremely porminent and influential in most Western cultures (largely thanks to the fact that Christian invaders have swept across it throughout recorded history systematically slaughtering the indigenous peoples and wiping out their cultures) therefore it is only natural for someone who stands outside this particular dominant set if ideologies to want to flaunt their non-adherence as a kind of declaration of independence.

Posted by: Asimov Nov 24 2004, 12:54 PM
QUOTE (Asuryan @ Nov 22 2004, 05:57 PM)
I'm still in the "Hunting for a kill" phase of my atheism. I feel almost compelled to engage in a logical debate with every strong belief Christian that I meet.
At the moment I'm enjoying it, is it wrong to do so? wicked.gif

There is only one person who I absolutely refuse to discuss with.

Other than that, I'm up for a fight with any Christian, anytime, anywhere.

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 25 2004, 06:04 AM
QUOTE (Asuryan @ Nov 22 2004, 08:57 PM)
I'm still in the "Hunting for a kill" phase of my atheism. I feel almost compelled to engage in a logical debate with every strong belief Christian that I meet.
At the moment I'm enjoying it, is it wrong to do so? wicked.gif

Not at all; I'm sure that you will do this, but watch the temper. As sson as a christian says something designed to piss you off, they will piss you off even more and whatever valid points you have made will be blown. At least in their eyes.

I have started work on a series of points-counter points, memorized them and now it is the christians that get pissed! I love it!! Instead of hunting them, I wait for them (so many people find it a challenge to convert me) and there is an overabundance of them at work, it's pretty much a weekly thing.
Everyone of them that has debated me will no longer participate; they have sated that they like to choose their battles. lol

Not that I am a good debater (or is that master debater?), I just found that if you use their bible, their twisted sense of logic and reasoning and their insistance at making bald assertions, they fold like a contortionist trying to fellate himself.


Posted by: ficino Nov 25 2004, 07:05 AM
Hey, Monkeyboy! Have you already posted your list of debating points? I'm sure many of us would love to see it, so please give the reference to any earlier posting. If not, and if you have time to summarize them, it would be appreciated.
Cheers,

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 25 2004, 02:51 PM
QUOTE (ficino @ Nov 25 2004, 09:05 AM)
Hey, Monkeyboy! Have you already posted your list of debating points? I'm sure many of us would love to see it, so please give the reference to any earlier posting. If not, and if you have time to summarize them, it would be appreciated.
Cheers,

ficino -

I'll more than happy to. I have to work tomorrow and Saturday, and since it will be painfully slow, that'll give me plenty of time to post them.

Incidentally, this will help me a great deal, since I am certain there are flaws; I would appreciate any feedback, from unbeliever and believer alike.

Tim

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 26 2004, 09:27 AM
QUOTE (ficino @ Nov 25 2004, 09:05 AM)
Hey, Monkeyboy!  Have you already posted your list of debating points?  I'm sure many of us would love to see it, so please give the reference to any earlier posting.  If not, and if you have time to summarize them, it would be appreciated.
Cheers,

Here you go; it's not the best wprk that I've done, but I wrote this while working today:

Good morning!

As requested by ficino @ Nov 25 2004, 09:05 AM in Rants and Replies (topic: Spoilin' for a fight, With them, or with myself?), here is my post containing possible arguments, points and counterpoints when you are being proselytized by religious types.
I was involved in Evangelism Explosion back in the early 90’s, which was a course that taught Christians how to convert people, door to door. Instead of relying on the Holy Spirit to move people’s hearts toward salvation, they were taught how to win by debate. The premise of conversion by argumentation was funny to me, so years later I have attempted to construct an atheist’s point/counterpoint lesson.
Use at your own discretion and have fun!

Any corrections, suggestions and comments are more than welcome and appreciated.

Regardless of the scenario, when you are confronted by a Christian, whether directly or indirectly, they will almost always try to assert that there are only two choices:
1) The biblical God
2) Everything else, which is the Devil manifested
Their source of this assertion will primarily be the bible. It is my experience (for what that’s worth) that most Christians know less about the bible, the history of Christianity and the history of the bible and their own faith, then most atheists. They (and again, I am painting Christians using a broad brush) are trained to listen to and believe whatever the man (or in a few rare cases) is telling them from the pulpit. As a result, they have the GOD of the universe living inside them, guiding them, and those godless scientists will never ‘get it’. So, why should the believers study science, geography, social issues or any other field of study that should be relevant? All they need to know is in the bible! Wrong!

Depending on whether or not the believer wants to dive into a detailed debate, simple questions can serve your purpose. If they quote the bible (which they most certainly will), you could say that since the bible affirms itself, (the bible is true because the bible says it’s true) that that is an example of a circular argument. Hopefully they will know what you mean.
In addition, since their entire belief system is based on faith, they should have great difficulty in proving any evidence whatsoever.

Q: Why not believe, anyway? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Pascal’s Wager; you could reply by illustrating that there are many versions of hell (and/or eternity) in many other religions. Why does Pascal’s Wager only apply to Christianity? The Muslim hell is much worse than Christian version. Besides, is fear a rational basis for selecting a belief system?
This is also known as an appeal to Fear. “You had better believe in Jesus or you’ll have to face the eternal fires of Hell!”

Q: I know that the bible and Jesus is true, because once when I was sick…..

Personal experience cannot be used to strengthen the support for an argument, yet many believers are guilty of this. It often leads to appeals from Emotion; a decision based on emotion is irrational and not thought out. You will notice that calm demeanor that you possess will serve to highlight their anger and insistence that they are right.
For every feel good story of how god changed their lives, you can offer many times that of how a person wasn’t healed/saved/recovered from addiction, etc. Believers that use this line of thinking have blinders on. They only see the good and disregard the bad.

Q: Dr. So-and-so stated that C-14 dating is wrong, because they carbon dated a living plant and the results came back with a date of 2 million years old.

This is known as a Fallacious Appeal to Authority. This is when the person named is not an authority on the subject. Dr. Who ever may have in fact earned his doctorate; but in what? A doctor does not know everything about everything! If a creationist holds a degree in Physical Fitness, does this necessarily mean that he will be an expert on Paleontology? Of course not. The claim in question could be true; but the fact that an unqualified person is making the claim, does not offer any reason to accept the claim as true. Encourage the believer to “put it in their own words”; this will determine if they actually know what they are talking about AND help them see (hopefully) how they have been deceived.
In this example, the believer demonstrated they know nothing about Carbon 14 dating, since it is not used to measure anything anywhere near 1,000,000 years old. No wonder the readings were false! It would be like trying to measure tree growth using a barometer; the results would be clearly false.

Q: What is stopping you from (fill in the offense here)? Since we derive our morality from the bible and from God, what is stopping from committing everything that you desire?
Of course, this is absurd and easily falsifiable; if morality was based on the bible, then it would stand to reason that those that believed in the reliability of the bible would be moral agents in high standing. None or very, very few Christians would be in prison, getting divorces and depending which doctrine you believe, living in poverty.
According to a study conducted by the Federal Bureau of Prisons in 1997:

83.761% of the total prison population surveyed, listed a Christian denomination as their religion (Catholic – 39.164%, Protestant – 35.008%, Rasta – 1.987%, Jewish – 1.773%, Church of Christ – 1.744%, Pentecostal – 1.463%, Jehovah Witness - .890%, Adventist - .831%, Orthodox - .502% and Mormon - .399%.

How many atheists surveyed in that sane year? .209%. Now, the survey does not take into account several factors, such as the way that the questions were worded; did they ask if the prisoners claimed no religion, or if they believed in god or both? A person can believe in god yet still have no religious affiliation; that does not make them an atheist.
This survey does not prove anything, but if it is true, then it leads to the inevitable conclusion that religion (especially Christianity) does not in any way factor in the moral choices that a person makes. This is not to suggest that most Christians are law breakers; it only states that if religion dictated morality, then they would be noticeably fewer Christians in prisons and an over abundance of atheists.

Another counterpoint on this point; whenever a Christian states asks why I do not molest children or rape women, I always ask them the following,” Are you saying then that it is your religion that is preventing you from committing those horrific deeds?” They always answer in the negative, but usually my point is made with crystal clarity. If any Christian should answer “yes” to my question, then I strongly encourage them to remain a Christian and to stay the hell away from me.

Q: I can tell that you are smart, bright, and talented and your answers are well thought out; Jesus loves you! Won’t you give him a chance?
Ever by a car or anything for that matter, where the salesperson was kissing your ass so hard that it was difficult to tell where his lips ended and your butt began? This is an appeal to Flattery. This tactic is used in conjunction with several other ones, the goal being to wear you down, to disarm you and to get in, any way that they can. Just dismiss these statements, and you may want to point out that flattery in a debate is quite cowardly and low. In contrast:

Q: You are going to burn in hell, you infidel/backslider/apostate! Turn or burn!! TURN OR BURN!!!!
There is nothing that you can say to someone like that, because they are arguing from pure emotion (they will call it ‘holy anger’) and it nothing short of Fascism. Shouting down the opposition only serves to prove that they cannot defend their beliefs, and must resort to intimidation and threats. These people are fading fast, but they also reproduce fast, passing on their intolerance and hatred. Ignore them, unless you enjoy twitching after being in the presence of a person with absolutely no ability to reason.

Q: My father was a preacher; his father was before him and so on. I believe because we are all Christians.
Appeal to Tradition is rare, but I have come across it before. A few people that I have debated actually believed very close to the way I do, but they would have lost their inheritance/car/house/wife and kids/job if they had turned. These people are brought up to believe in god, their parents told them god exists, so he must. Generally, since these people didn’t come from a night and day conversion, they don’t often argue or try to convert. The church calls these believers Luke Warm Christians.
They appear to be apathetic and unconcerned.

I’ll wrap up for now; please offer any criticism that you want suggestions, etc.







Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 27 2004, 11:11 AM
*Bump*

Posted by: Asuryan Nov 27 2004, 05:33 PM
Thank you monkeyboy! happydance.gif
Unfortunately I don't have much use for your list, because here in Italy no one uses that kind of arguments.
However I'll post some questions they are doing. I know how I am answering them but I would enjoy your thoughts about them.

Q: I know that Jesus and God exist because I feel it in my heart, I feel a warmth, I feel wonderful emotions when I eat the holy wafer...
A: I already saw that answering "members of other religions feel those feelings also, so how do you say that your god exists and theirs doesn't?" brings them to answer you that "satan is making them feeling those feelings". So this one is no good.

Q: You have no faith. I have faith. An individual without faith could never understand what is it like to have faith. You are trying to understand things that were never meant to have an answer. God is a Mystery that you can solve only with faith, so stop being so logical, you can't understand God with logic.
A: this one comes out as soon as I ask "So God created evil. Then he sends people to hell because they have been evil (something HE willfully created). Why creating evil? Why putting the snake in the Eden garden if he already knew that adam and eve would eat the fruit? Did he do that willfully?" (of course I don't pose them all at once, I select one or two of them). When they don't know how to answer me anymore they just say that they are just humans, that a human could never have the knowledge that god has, that their mind are too little to understand the mysteries of god mind, and... that god is always right even if we can't understand his motives. KatieHmm.gif I HATE this one.

Q: RC church says that gay people will go to heaven, that they are no different from heterosexuals. That they have the right to be happy. I know that because a priest once said that to me...
A: Here telling them "go read the RC cathechism" isn't useful. Telling them that the Pope and Ratzinger, the Inquisition leader, and all high spheres of RC are saying that homosexuality is "a sin that screams directly to hell because of its shame" (worse than mortal sins), is to no avail. They wall themselves behind "that priest in that 500 people village told me that, THAT is the true RC faith, everybody else are just plain wrong." even if they are popes or cardinals. And if you try and tell them that their religion calls this behaviour "heresy" they start screaming and lose all rationality. Which is fun but is not what I wanted. KatieHmm.gif

Q: the girl is simply being rebellious... yeah, she's atheist since she was 13, but I'm sure that she's just acting to piss us off... hehe these post adolescents really are sweet and funny...
A: these are my parents and aunts. Here I lose patience and tell them to fuck off. Always. wicked.gif


Posted by: ficino Nov 27 2004, 08:55 PM
Thanks for the thoughtful rundown of the mindset of evangelists, Monkeyboy! I remember similar from my olden days. I agree with you that evangelists have binary thinking, i.e. it's bible/Jesus or everything else, since the whole world is Satan's temporary fiefdom. I remember as a christian that the most moral, spiritually inclined person was still damned in my sight. I'd just try to appeal to the person's good impulses and promise that those impulses would find their fulfilment in Christ. Like you, I was taught to strike first with scripture by itself and/or my testimony and save intellectual debate for when the other person insisted.

I will enjoy thinking over your points.

Here are some further Christian "arguments" I've seen lately.

a. Life is meaningless without God/the Gospel etc.
b. You can't account for the order in the universe without appealing to a Creator.
c. You can't account for why anything should exist unless one being (God) exists necessarily. This is because all other entities we know exist contingently.
d. Who moved the stone? The only explanation for the early disciples' faith is a true resurrection of Jesus, since only sincere belief accounts for their willingness to be put to death for preaching the resurrection. They wouldn't undergo persecution for what they knew was a pious fraud.
e. Yes, we realize it's circular to appeal to the Bible as evidence for the gospel, but all reasoning starts from absolute presuppositions - push any system back far enough and you get to them. So why not stand in the circle of reasoning that brings life and happiness in Christ rather than in the world's circle, which brings despair?

I haven't been in a serious, live discussion with a Christian for a while now, so I can't say from recent experience how my own mind's refutations of these points would go over. Here's what I think, though:

a. My take on "meaning" is that I start agreeing that there is no purpose outside my own existence. Then I start filling in meaning. I deny the imaginary friend approach. Life is more meaningful when the meaning comes from within you than when you try to derive it from some external mythology and institutions.

b. 1. we can't say any more about the "order" in the universe than that our minds organize external data into an order. Order and lawlikeness are properties inherent in observers' systems of explanation - otherwise there's no system of explanation. We can't talk about some universe "in itself" that has order independent of minds.
2. we can't say the "order" is perfect. There are lots of anomalies and screw-ups in nature.
3. To admit there may be/is a creator out there somewhere is a far cry from believing in all the doctrines of Christianity.

c. I just say the universe is eternal and leave it at that. I don't know whether it isn't already begging the question to talk about something's existing necessarily.

d. The "Who Moved the Stone" book and similar claims have been refuted many times, with some references given on this site. Start with contradictions among the gospels themselves.

e. This is the Cornelius Van Til approach - maybe Christian reconstructionists take it too, I'm not sure. That sort of apologist tries to get the unbeliever to feel despair that he can't know anything, and in that despair to take a leap into Christianity. I think in fact there are fundamental presuppositions that the unbeliever and the believer must both hold in order to carry on discourse together, such as the basic laws of thought (principles of identity, excluded middle, non-contradiction). Agreement on these can lead to examination of contradictions in the bible and within christian dogma. Either the Christian jettisons the priciple of non-contradiction, at which point he/she can't seriously try to keep arguing, or else you can start disentangling the contradictions.

Egad, I didn't mean to run on so long. Cheers, M-boy and everyone!

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 29 2004, 09:22 AM
For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents:

QUOTE
Q: I know that Jesus and God exist because I feel it in my heart, I feel a warmth, I feel wonderful emotions when I eat the holy wafer...
A: I already saw that answering "members of other religions feel those feelings also, so how do you say that your god exists and theirs doesn't?" brings them to answer you that "satan is making them feeling those feelings". So this one is no good.


Arguing from emotion is a sure way for people to live in a constant state of ups and downs; it is the Bi-Polar way of life. I feel a warm and good FEELING when I have a snort of whiskey, smoke after a good meal and having an orgasm. Besides, what happens when a person feels cold and down? Hath their god forsakeneth them?

QUOTE
Q: You have no faith. I have faith. An individual without faith could never understand what is it like to have faith. You are trying to understand things that were never meant to have an answer. God is a Mystery that you can solve only with faith, so stop being so logical, you can't understand God with logic.
A: this one comes out as soon as I ask "So God created evil. Then he sends people to hell because they have been evil (something HE willfully created). Why creating evil? Why putting the snake in the Eden garden if he already knew that adam and eve would eat the fruit? Did he do that willfully?" (of course I don't pose them all at once, I select one or two of them). When they don't know how to answer me anymore they just say that they are just humans, that a human could never have the knowledge that god has, that their mind are too little to understand the mysteries of god mind, and... that god is always right even if we can't understand his motives.  KatieHmm.gif I HATE this one.


Faith is simply choosing to believe something inspite of having no evidence. I have faith everytime someone offers me a chair that I have never sat in before. Should the chair break, I would be a fool to accept another seat from the jaskass that triched me; so it is with a self proclaimed "perfect" god: all a perfect being has to do in order to affirm that he is imperfect, is to commit an act of imperfection just once. The creation of evil is a good example of that; how can a perfect being create imperfection?

QUOTE
Q: RC church says that gay people will go to heaven, that they are no different from heterosexuals. That they have the right to be happy. I know that because a priest once said that to me...
A: Here telling them "go read the RC cathechism" isn't useful. Telling them that the Pope and Ratzinger, the Inquisition leader, and all high spheres of RC are saying that homosexuality is "a sin that screams directly to hell because of its shame" (worse than mortal sins), is to no avail. They wall themselves behind "that priest in that 500 people village told me that, THAT is the true RC faith, everybody else are just plain wrong." even if they are popes or cardinals. And if you try and tell them that their religion calls this behaviour "heresy" they start screaming and lose all rationality. Which is fun but is not what I wanted.  KatieHmm.gif


You cannot debate someone who argues using the fallacy of authority; so and so said it (even god), I believe it, that settles it.
It certainly does; let them display their rage in front of likely converts. I have always said, Christians ruin christianity more for non christians than all the devils, demon, queers and atheists combined.

QUOTE
Q: the girl is simply being rebellious... yeah, she's atheist since she was 13, but I'm sure that she's just acting to piss us off... hehe these post adolescents really are sweet and funny...
A: these are my parents and aunts. Here I lose patience and tell them to fuck off. Always.  wicked.gif


Just a suggestion, but try a more nonconfrontational stance. Offer to help out, do more than what is expected and love those that question your motives: You will be acting more christ-like than the mythical christ could ever hope to. Answer their verbal abuse, condescension and arrogance with patience, love and peace.
They believe that there is "no peace without god"; prove them wrong by your actions. When those that start to see the bullshit that is relgion (esp xianity), then they will seek you aout and ask questions.

You're only 13? I wish I had known what you know at that age!

Good luck!

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Nov 29 2004, 11:09 AM
LeslieLook.gif
QUOTE ("Ficino")
Thanks for the thoughtful rundown of the mindset of evangelists, Monkeyboy! I remember similar from my olden days. I agree with you that evangelists have binary thinking, i.e. it's bible/Jesus or everything else, since the whole world is Satan's temporary fiefdom. I remember as a christian that the most moral, spiritually inclined person was still damned in my sight. I'd just try to appeal to the person's good impulses and promise that those impulses would find their fulfilment in Christ. Like you, I was taught to strike first with scripture by itself and/or my testimony and save intellectual debate for when the other person insisted.


Thank you for your kind words.
QUOTE ("fincino")

Here are some further Christian "arguments" I've seen lately.


I'll give these a go:
QUOTE

a. Life is meaningless without God/the Gospel etc.

I have heard this, and even when I believed, it struck me as the most arrogant thing a person can say. There really isn't anything I can think of say here except to ask them to offer evidence; meaning in a person's life is subjective.

QUOTE

b. You can't account for the order in the universe without appealing to a Creator.

If by order they mean complexity, then complexity should rule out a creator. Any designer applies the KISS rule; Keep It Simple Stupid; the human body is a large study in disorder. If they mean because 'everytihng fits together so nicely', then that's just dumb. The reason 'it' works, is because of adaption.
QUOTE

c. You can't account for why anything should exist unless one being (God) exists necessarily. This is because all other entities we know exist contingently.

That's easy; if there is a Prime Mover or a Creator, who created him? And so on and so on. Creationists cannot accept that life began from seemingly nothing, but they have no problem accepting a god that 'always was', and was not created.
What is the difference?

QUOTE

d. Who moved the stone? The only explanation for the early disciples' faith is a true resurrection of Jesus, since only sincere belief accounts for their willingness to be put to death for preaching the resurrection. They wouldn't undergo persecution for what they knew was a pious fraud.

Not true; while martydom looks sincere, they are only dying for what they think is the truth. Besides that, there is NO external verification of the crucifiction, much less the resurrection of a man named Jesus Christ. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus is based on faith in a book.

QUOTE

e. Yes, we realize it's circular to appeal to the Bible as evidence for the gospel, but all reasoning starts from absolute presuppositions - push any system back far enough and you get to them. So why not stand in the circle of reasoning that brings life and happiness in Christ rather than in the world's circle, which brings despair?

lol. This is a strawman attack; they are claiming something, then defining it as something completely different and therefore much easier to tear down.
Here, let me try:
"There are many people that in prisons (over 50%) that claim christianity as their religion. Therefore, christians are criminals."
Fun, isn't it?
It's totally false, but christians seem to have taken classes on Strawmen construction.

QUOTE

I haven't been in a serious, live discussion with a Christian for a while now, so I can't say from recent experience how my own mind's refutations of these points would go over. Here's what I think, though:

a. My take on "meaning" is that I start agreeing that there is no purpose outside my own existence. Then I start filling in meaning. I deny the imaginary friend approach. Life is more meaningful when the meaning comes from within you than when you try to derive it from some external mythology and institutions.

I couldn't have put it better myself; I agree.

QUOTE

b. 1. we can't say any more about the "order" in the universe than that our minds organize external data into an order. Order and lawlikeness are properties inherent in observers' systems of explanation - otherwise there's no system of explanation. We can't talk about some universe "in itself" that has order independent of minds.

That's good, I agree.
QUOTE

2. we can't say the "order" is perfect. There are lots of anomalies and screw-ups in nature.
3. To admit there may be/is a creator out there somewhere is a far cry from believing in all the doctrines of Christianity.

#2 is self evident, and #3 can lead to another thread if you'd like. I t is correct that one fact in a belief does not mean the entire belief is correct.
QUOTE

c. I just say the universe is eternal and leave it at that. I don't know whether it isn't already begging the question to talk about something's existing necessarily.

It's pretty much acedemic; for those that say we cannot know the mind of god, why not just say anything that we don't understand, "goddidit". How does moving pictures travel through the air and onto my tv?
Goddidit.
QUOTE

d. The "Who Moved the Stone" book and similar claims have been refuted many times, with some references given on this site. Start with contradictions among the gospels themselves.

You know, when most believers ask me to prove the bible wrong to them (which an odd request), I simply ask them to read it. Sometimes I still carry a bible with me and I have my notes with me and we'll have an impromptu bible study.
Much of the time, they are blown away that I would even read the bible; like it's going to burn my flesh if I even touch it.
They think that I am possessed, but no amount of prayer or quoting the bible drives 'it' or 'them' out.
Turns out it's just gas.

QUOTE

e. This is the Cornelius Van Til approach - maybe Christian reconstructionists take it too, I'm not sure. That sort of apologist tries to get the unbeliever to feel despair that he can't know anything, and in that despair to take a leap into Christianity. I think in fact there are fundamental presuppositions that the unbeliever and the believer must both hold in order to carry on discourse together, such as the basic laws of thought (principles of identity, excluded middle, non-contradiction). Agreement on these can lead to examination of contradictions in the bible and within christian dogma. Either the Christian jettisons the priciple of non-contradiction, at which point he/she can't seriously try to keep arguing, or else you can start disentangling the contradictions.

Well put. I'd like to add that once you introduce logic, reasoning and dare I say intellect into the conversation, their claims evaporate. They then are left to conclude something to the effect, "I believe because I know it's true in my heart."
Nice, but all that proves is that they cannot defend their faith.

Sorry I wrote a book!

Posted by: Asuryan Dec 3 2004, 12:29 AM
QUOTE
Besides, what happens when a person feels cold and down?  Hath their god forsakeneth them?


Well, they then answer "but even when I am cold and down I always KNOW that god is inside me, I start praying and then I feel that God is there and he's listening to me and..." blah blah.
But I like the similarities between the Prayer Feeling and the "good meal, good fuck" Feeling. However I guess that the 2nd feeling is better than the 1st! wicked.gif

QUOTE
The creation of evil is a good example of that; how can a perfect being create imperfection?


"He is perfect anyway. He has some perfect motivations for creating evil, those motivations are so perfect that we, being imperfect, cannot understand. How can something imperfect understand something perfect? It's like ants trying to understand relativity."

QUOTE
You cannot debate someone who argues using the fallacy of authority; so and  so said it (even god), I believe it, that settles it.


So no debating with these ones, eh? All right. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

QUOTE
Offer to help out, do more than what is expected and love those that question your motives: You will be acting more christ-like than the mythical christ could ever hope to.  Answer their verbal abuse, condescension and arrogance with patience, love and peace. 


But it's not in my personality to do that. Not for them wicked.gif
My parents have abused me for too long, in religion and by hitting me even once, twice, thrice a day for years. They are violent and abusive, cruel people, caring more for people's opinion than for me. Another good reason to tell them to fuck off: no way I'm going to act Christ-like on them.
After all there's plenty of cruel, abusive, ignorant and egoist catholics here, so why one, to be an atheist, should be a sort of perfect woman?
Take my uncle: a perfect man. Kind with everyone. A man of culture, 2 degrees, he loved children, he was sweet and caring, he was intelligent and everything I ever dreamed my father was. When he died, all people were saying about him is "Do you know? The homosexual has died".
This is catholicism for you. You can be the most perfect person in the world, but since you're not catholic they will always, ALWAYS find something to debase you and minimize your good qualities. On the other hand if you are an abusive and violent and drunk catholic, "well, he went the wrong way, but he asked for forgiveness, so let's forgive him, we know that at heart he's a good and god-loving man".
Sickening.

QUOTE
You're only 13?  I wish I had known what you know at that age!


No, I'm 25, but I came out as an atheist when I was 13, as I rebelled against my mother who wanted to force me to attend Catholic Religion course at high school. Read my extimony for more (it's somewhere... I should REALLY paste it in the extimonies forum).


Posted by: ficino Dec 3 2004, 03:41 AM
Great responses, Monkeyboy and Asuryan, and it is a pleasure to share our takes on Christian apologetics and its arguments. Why don't the three of us form a tag team and arrange to meet Jason Gastrich and Holding/Turkel and someone else in, oh I don't know, why not Cortina or Amalfi or (fill in, Asuryan)? We might not be up on all the weird claims, but we could smile and snarl a lot.

David Brooks in the NY Times recently wrote an op-ed piece extolling John Stott of London. I read many of Stott's books years ago as a Christian in college. IMagine, the NY Times pushing evangelicalism. Where's Pravda when we need it?

I'll shut up now. Cheers, everyone

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Dec 3 2004, 04:22 AM
QUOTE ("Tim (MonkeyBoy")
Offer to help out, do more than what is expected and love those that question your motives: You will be acting more christ-like than the mythical christ could ever hope to.  Answer their verbal abuse, condescension and arrogance with patience, love and peace. 


QUOTE ("Asuryan")
But it's not in my personality to do that. Not for them wicked.gif
My parents have abused me for too long, in religion and by hitting me even once, twice, thrice a day for years. They are violent and abusive, cruel people, caring more for people's opinion than for me. Another good reason to tell them to fuck off: no way I'm going to act Christ-like on them.
After all there's plenty of cruel, abusive, ignorant and egoist catholics here, so why one, to be an atheist, should be a sort of perfect woman?
Take my uncle: a perfect man. Kind with everyone. A man of culture, 2 degrees, he loved children, he was sweet and caring, he was intelligent and everything I ever dreamed my father was. When he died, all people were saying about him is "Do you know? The homosexual has died".
This is catholicism for you. You can be the most perfect person in the world, but since you're not catholic they will always, ALWAYS find something to debase you and minimize your good qualities. On the other hand if you are an abusive and violent and drunk catholic, "well, he went the wrong way, but he asked for forgiveness, so let's forgive him, we know that at heart he's a good and god-loving man".
Sickening.


Asuryan - I agree that it is wrong to act "Christ-like" as an atheist, but all that christlike means to me is to treat others like you want to be treated. Since most fundies are mean spirited hypocrites, those that are starting to be led astray can be won back to the side of tolerance, love, intelligence and self-reliance.

That being said, I firmly believe in dispensing revenge to those that deserve it. Many times I found out that I didn't need to "do" anything; when I met up with some believers that I used to know, most of them were a complete wreck. Myths and lies will always be exposed even though some people insist on believing them.

Sorry to hear about your uncle. My aunt died when I was 9 or so, before I knew that I didn't HAVE to believe; she attended the Kingdom Hall. After I was saved (from my brain), I met a guy that was a church leader over there. We were both witnessing; he was handing out Watchtower booklets and I was handing out 'Are yoiu saved?' tracts. I felt the demons in him rise up when I approached (not really, it was Taco Bell from earlier that day) and after he told me who he was, I asked about my aunt, since I didn't get know her a great deal before she died.

He said, "Oh, Marilyn wasn't a Witness; she did attend the church, but she wasn't willing to stop drinking and smoking, so she was excommunicated before she died."

At the time, I thought it was Holy Anger making me feel the way I did; in reality, he spun me into a dimension of pissed off that I have never been in before.
The few things I do remember about my aunt was that she had a yapping rat of a dog, she was very nice and her and my uncle were just plain 'cool', their house always smelled like fresh coffee and ....
...she loved that church. For them to deny her (or at least the person I spoke to that was a leader of some kind) based on a couple of 'vices', is the weakest shit I have ever been exposed to. So far.

It turns out, I agree with more than I realized at first. The rage still exists, but like many of you, it is because I was made to feel bad about being NORMAL! For so long I was told that sin had a handle on my life, that my brief involvment with Satanism (not that LeVey stuff; no offense to any CoS members) led to the rage; it was actually being lied to in the name of love.

Xian: "I want to tell you something in love."
Me: "Oh shit."

Posted by: MonkeyBoy Dec 3 2004, 04:25 AM
QUOTE (ficino @ Dec 3 2004, 06:41 AM)
Great responses, Monkeyboy and Asuryan, and it is a pleasure to share our takes on Christian apologetics and its arguments. Why don't the three of us form a tag team and arrange to meet Jason Gastrich and Holding/Turkel and someone else in, oh I don't know, why not Cortina or Amalfi or (fill in, Asuryan)? We might not be up on all the weird claims, but we could smile and snarl a lot.

Ficino -

I am not sure who they are, but sure, that sounds like fun. You know, it might also prove useful to open a few threads where we play God's Advocate:
I can pretend to be a fundie and everyone can chip in with their rebuttles. It may be a good exercise in debate.

We can also start one where someone poses as a fundie for the sole purpose of abuse.

If anyone is interested, let's do it!

MonkeyBoi

Posted by: ficino Dec 3 2004, 08:49 AM
Dear Asuryan,

Not long after I pressed "send" on the above response I realized that I also wanted to convey my appreciation about your uncle. From the way you describe him, he sounds like the kind of man I try to be - and as though he succeeded in being that kind of man. I am glad that he was there in your life. As a gay man, I value stories about people like myself who are/were role models to look up to. If you ever feel inclined to tell more about him, I would be honored to hear it.


Yours, ficino

P.S. one of my co-workers thinks I'm joking when I tell her that the real, authentic mozzarella is mozzarella di bufalo made from buffalo milk down in Campania (Lucania, too?). I try my hardest in our American wasteland to be an ambassador for Italy - and I'm not even Italian! (I could do without Berlusconi, though - don't know where you stand on Forza Italia).

Posted by: Asuryan Dec 3 2004, 10:42 PM
QUOTE
Great responses, Monkeyboy and Asuryan, and it is a pleasure to share our takes on Christian apologetics and its arguments.  Why don't the three of us form a tag team


No! I want to form a Superheroes group! Let's all buy City of Heroes and form a group called "The Atheist trio" or something more glorious than that. We can also choose our own coordinated costume. lmao_99.gif
Or we could do that in real life... searching the bad fundy guy and then attacking him with debating and logic until he breaks down crying "holy shit! What have I done with my life?? I see the LIGHT I am SAVED!" FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

About the meeting place, I suggest the beaches of Elba island: sand so white and water so clear that it's like being on a tropical island! FrogsToadBigGrin.gif


Posted by: Asuryan Dec 3 2004, 10:44 PM
QUOTE
I can pretend to be a fundie and everyone can chip in with their rebuttles.  It may be a good exercise in debate.


Can I be the catholic fundy? Oooh! Can I? Can I? FrogsToadBigGrin.gif


Posted by: Asuryan Dec 3 2004, 11:20 PM
QUOTE
P.S. one of my co-workers thinks I'm joking when I tell her that the real, authentic mozzarella is mozzarella di bufalo made from buffalo milk down in Campania (Lucania, too?).  I try my hardest in our American wasteland to be an ambassador for Italy - and I'm not even Italian!  (I could do without Berlusconi, though - don't know where you stand on Forza Italia).


Berlusconi is an asshole. He's destroying our constitution. There's a line clearly stating that "Italy rejects war as a mean of solving controversies between nations"... Well, so Berlusconi says "all we have to do is avoid saying that ours is a war. We are going in Iraq on a "peace mission", and "to help people there"".
Bullshit. If he wanted to help them he would've sent help with the Red Cross or other charity associations.
Old timers here will probably keep voting berlusconi. Young people are almost unanimous in saying that he's an asshole.
Hey, thanks for the advertising, you are a sweetie! woohoo.gif Cryotanknotworthy.gif
Why do you like Italy so much? You are doing great but now I'm curious! FrogsToadBigGrin.gif
We would be a much better place without the pope frolicking around in our politics, though! KatieHmm.gif


QUOTE
From the way you describe him, he sounds like the kind of man I try to be - and as though he succeeded in being that kind of man.


I am a woman but still I would like to be like him... but I think I'll never manage to do it. His personality was so different from mine... he was kind and nice with everyone, he was diplomatic and always tried to unite his family even when its members were attacking one another, he forgave his father without a thought for hitting him hard with sticks and the wood ending of guns when he was a little child, and he had a wonderful partner that was a cultured man, and very nice and kind with me... then again he was almost 60 when he died, he had a lot of time to come to terms with his atheism and his homosexuality (when he was young he searched for the confort of religion, feeling guilty for his sexual tendencies and hoping for a cleansing. He also told me, laughing, of the time that he took the little brother of a friend of his, and started walking around the city with this crying child in his arms, shouting "MY LORD take him away! Take him to heaven with you, this world is too ugly for a little child like him to live in! I am corrupted but please take him away!". I laughed my ass too imagining the faces of the old ladies seeing this boy with a mystical crisis!)
He, however, is and will always be the most important man in my life: he helped me a lot and I owe my strenght and my hatred of religion almost entirely to him. I always dreamed of him being my father, and not my uncle.
Speaking of my father, my mother asked him if he would have liked a necklace with a cross for christmas. I stated "He doesn't want it". My father was all "well, you can choose to avoid crosses if you want, I on the other hand want to..."
And here I asked him "you on the other hand want to spit on the memory of your brother?". He and my mother went all Wendytwitch.gif . Astonished, they couldn't understand.
I said "If you put a cross around your neck and go around showing it, you are showing the world and yourself that you are supporting a belief system saying that your brother is now suffering terrible tortures for all eternity for being gay. Did you hate your brother so much that you would like him to burn and suffer for eternity?"
He was silenced and had a very guilty look in his eyes. My mother (strange but true) said "all right all right we won't buy the cross, you are right, you are perfectly right, no cross for your father". However I fear she said that only to shut me up, because the crosses and virgin mary icons and everything else religious in my house has stayed where it was. KatieHmm.gif

He's buried in the local cemetary, I would like to honor his memory my way, taking a pipe on his tomb, an audiocassette of classical music, and perhaps some other item that he loved and cared for when he was alive.

About classical music, he was a great estimator of it. He listened to classical music stations every day, and recorded the versions he didn't have on audiocassettes and old tapes. Hundred, perhaps thousands, of his audiocassettes and tapes have been found after his death; more than 40 years of recording, taping, listening, and love for classical music. There was his LIFE inside those recordings.
My parents threw everything away, as soon as I knew that it was too late to save anything.
Every time I think about this thing I feel myself wanting to cry and wanting to hate everyone involved, parents, relatives, the church, the neighbors, for having done something like that to such a wonderful man. Even now I feel my eyes burning and my stomach turning upside down.
Fuck.



Posted by: ficino Dec 4 2004, 02:07 PM
Oh Asuryan,
thank you for telling about your uncle. His story is beautiful and inspiring, and other people's unthinking prejudice is cruel and saddening. I am glad he lives on in you. Now a little piece lives on in us who read what you wrote.

As someone trained in ancient Greek and Latin, it was natural of me to be attracted to Italy, but I wasn't prepared for how much I loved it the first time I traveled there in '83. I try to get to Italy every couple of years. This past July I had a great time in Rome - had to leave just on the day of Simon and Garfunkel's big concert, which I missed.

Asuryan, you'd have a lot to contribute to the discussions that go on the "testimony reply" board on this site. They're harder to navigate because people's contributions aren't organized by named thread. There are some fiery lovers of truth there who remind me of you. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif


Posted by: almost_there Dec 4 2004, 04:00 PM
Astreja
Maybe you keep trying to attract the attention of christians is because somewhere inside your mind you want to be converted or for some odd reason
you miss hearing about christian things?

That said,
Im not a shrink

Posted by: Asuryan Dec 4 2004, 04:57 PM
QUOTE
Astreja
Maybe you keep trying to attract the attention of christians is because somewhere inside your mind you want to be converted or for some odd reason


I'm always hoping, not to be converted by some christian, but that some christian will try to do that FrogsToadBigGrin.gif For me it's a competitive feeling, instead of a "pleading for spiritual help". You know, just like those swashbuckling movies where young aggressive men went around and acted arrogantly and provoked people, just because they hoped to get into a good duel FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

QUOTE
Oh Asuryan,
thank you for telling about your uncle.


I feared I wrote too much and in the wrong forum (but I noticed now that this is, after all, the "rants" forum, so it's not off topic in the end LeslieLook.gif ). But you know how it is when your fingers start writing lines after lines, and you barely notice... However it's the first time that it happens to me when writing in a foreign tongue.

QUOTE
you'd have a lot to contribute to the discussions that go on the "testimony reply" board on this site. They're harder to navigate because people's contributions aren't organized by named thread.


I'll try that board too. The "rants and replies", the "almost anything goes" and the "totally off topic" boards are usually quicker to read if you don't have much time to dedicate to the forums. But I'll find a bit of time for the other boards too FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 4 2004, 07:20 PM
Yes, thanks, Asuryan, for sharing about your uncle.

Posted by: Astreja Dec 4 2004, 11:46 PM
QUOTE (almost_there @ Dec 4 2004, 07:00 PM)
Astreja
Maybe you keep trying to attract the attention of christians is because somewhere inside your mind you want to be converted or for some odd reason you miss hearing about christian things?

No, I don't think so. I see Xianity as a deadly adversary that's deliberately destroying the world and causing hundreds of millions of people to live their lives in fear.

I look forward to the day when it becomes illegal to indoctrinate/threaten children with "believe or burn" stories. IMHO, scaring kids with tales of Hell is child abuse.

I know that my ancestors and their neighbours had some run-ins with Xian crusaders: Many were tortured, many were killed. To convert to Xianity would be a betrayal of my own kin. </rant>

I feel uncomfortable around anyone who's trying to convert me, but when it's an Xian I'm on especially high alert. And when they say "I'll pray for you" I wonder if they actually meant "prey on you." My standard procedure is to treat their prayer as hostile magic, and mentally reflect it back to the source.

Astreja

P.S. Asuryan, I'm sorry to hear about your uncle. He sounds like someone I would've liked to meet. Next violin practice I'll play him a tune or two.

Posted by: Asuryan Dec 5 2004, 08:40 PM
QUOTE
No, I don't think so. I see Xianity as a deadly adversary that's deliberately destroying the world and causing hundreds of millions of people to live their lives in fear.


I perfectly agree with your definition. Now I know what to answer when the next Xtian tries to say to me that believing in his/her god can only bring you happiness and trust in the future.

Astreja, Chefranden: and I thank you for taking the time to read my rant about him. The best way I can remember him is this one, not going to church and "pray" for him to suffer less in hell.
Astreja: he loved all composers, so he's going to love everything you play for him. I'll do the same with my piano here! This is the 2nd great idea that you have given me in a single post. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif


Posted by: MonkeyBoy Dec 7 2004, 03:39 AM
QUOTE (Asuryan @ Dec 5 2004, 11:40 PM)
QUOTE
No, I don't think so. I see Xianity as a deadly adversary that's deliberately destroying the world and causing hundreds of millions of people to live their lives in fear.


I perfectly agree with your definition. Now I know what to answer when the next Xtian tries to say to me that believing in his/her god can only bring you happiness and trust in the future.

Astreja, Chefranden: and I thank you for taking the time to read my rant about him. The best way I can remember him is this one, not going to church and "pray" for him to suffer less in hell.
Astreja: he loved all composers, so he's going to love everything you play for him. I'll do the same with my piano here! This is the 2nd great idea that you have given me in a single post. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Asuryan -

Thanks for sharing your uncle with us; I feel I know him a little bit now. I would love to be remembered and honored like this after I die. When loved ones remember and share the memory of a deceased loved one, IMO, they are not really gone: they are immortal.

It's people like your uncle that, through their lives, can leave a legacy that silences the religious fanatics that claim peace, love and happiness can only come through ______________ (Fill in your God here). I for one take a great deal of pride when I catch a christian being dishonest and sometimes even committing criminal acts. I look a bit rough, so some people judge me by my appearence, and they tend to let their guard down. I love telling them (after they commit whatever deed) that I am an atheist. And yes, we do have morals.
All at once they are faced with the hypocrisy that they accuse others of; they call someone a racial name behind their back. or call someone a fag and suddenly they have to explain why it is better to live like them (in hate) than in peace love and happiness; THE VERY THING THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO SELL YOU!!!!

So, thanks again for sharing your uncle. I, too, am a musican (of sorts) and I'll play my favorite classical tune for him to honor him tonight:
Bach's Borree in E Minor.

P.S. When I read about your uncle, an image of Ian McKellen flashed through my mind.

Posted by: nivek Dec 7 2004, 03:47 AM
Asuryan,

Sounds like Uncle was one hellova man...

World is lessened by his passing.

Thanks for a great read and story of a gentleman who meant so much to you.

n

Posted by: Asuryan Dec 7 2004, 03:20 PM
*Hugs everyone* Thank you, everybody. I know that if I talked with my parents and familiars about him they wouldn't understand.

This goes to show, once again, that we atheists often are more human than believers. There's nothing human in christians who think that such a wonderful man is currently roasting in the lake of fire since he liked men more than women. You really have to be a cruel motherfucker to think like that and still be able to believe in god.
Yes, we have morals, but nothing is enough for xtians judging atheists. We could do missionary work, we could donate to charity, we could help handicapped people in our free time, and still they'll say "yeah, he's doing all those nice things BUT he's an atheists, so he's going to burn for eternity. Oh well, better him than me." Wendybanghead.gif

He was a bit like Ian mcKellen, only that my uncle was mustached. (well, as Jack T. Chick says, all homosexuals are mustached fat men who sweat a lot and dress in leather and fetish stuff FrogsToadBigGrin.gif )




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