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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 01:30 PM |
| Should prostitution be legalized? I'm a non-christian - Legalize and regulate it. [ 57 ] [77.03%] I'm a non-christian - It should be illegal. [ 5 ] [6.76%] I'm a non-christian - Uncertain. [ 7 ] [9.46%] I'm a christian - Legalize and regulate it. [ 2 ] [2.70%] I'm a christian - It should be illegal. [ 1 ] [1.35%] I'm a christian - Uncertain. [ 2 ] [2.70%] Total Votes: 74 |
| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 01:31 PM |
| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Sex and Christianity > Should Prostitution Be Legalized? Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 06:31 AM Should prostitution be legalized and regulated, or should it be illegal? I've structured the poll so christians can participate and we can see what difference, if any, there is between christian and non-christian voters. ******************** It's my opinion that prostitution should be legalized and regulated. As the world's oldest profession, it is clear that it will exist no matter what the lawbooks say. I think it's better to bring it out into the open and regulate it for health reasons. I think this would also help to insure that no one is forced into prostitution against their will. What does everyone else think? Posted by: Redshift Dec 22 2003, 07:08 AM Legalise it. Regulate it. It's here to stay. Down here in Afrika and apparently also in Eastern Europe, girls are regularly kidnapped and enslaved as prostitutes. Drug addiction that leads to prostitution is, to my mind, also a form of slavery. Personal opinion: In my highly subjective perfect world, there be no need for prostitution. Posted by: Reach Dec 22 2003, 08:00 AM I'm guessing that it would probably be the rare little boy or girl who thinks as a child, "When I grow up I'm going to be a prostitute." Since many people in the industry relate that they ended up there as a last choice scenario, after a set of life-events... would legalization remove some of the unnecessary stigma? I think that given time, it could. TexasFreethinker QUOTE I think it's better to bring it out into the open and regulate it for health reasons. I think this would also help to insure that no one is forced into prostitution against their will. That would be good news. The stories of kidnapped girls sold into this profession is heart-wrenching to say the least. reach Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 22 2003, 08:19 AM I don't remember how old I was when someone explained to me what prostitution was, but I do remember my reaction. I could not fathom that a man would pay a women to have sex with them, when from my perspective (a gay adolescent) she would have to pay me. (And a great deal at that!) As I got older and was introduced to the gay community, I became aware of male prostitutes also. But even then the idea of paying for sex never seemed appealing in the least. Regardless of how long it had been since I had sex, I always saw masturbation as the better alternative. I just don't think I could perform with a prostitute. For me, sex is only good when I believe my partner is interested in me, and the best part of sex is the snuggle-fest afterwards. I don't think my "boy-for-hire" would be willing to hang around for that. It would be interesting to hear from others on this board: gay, straight, male and female regarding their opinions on this. No one need discuss any visit to a prostitute, but I would be interested in knowing if anyone has a desire to visit a prostitute or if their sexual fantasies involve prostitution. Posted by: Reach Dec 22 2003, 08:34 AM IBF, I'm female, straight, Christian and happily married to my second and last husband. QUOTE I just don't think I could perform with a prostitute. For me, sex is only good when I believe my partner is interested in me, and the best part of sex is the snuggle-fest afterwards. That kind of sums it up for me. I'd throw some love into the equation and commitment as well. For me, without those two things, sex is just sex. Honestly... I think many women have a little fantasy about being paid once, even if it's all in fun. Don't tell them I told you that. *wink* reach Posted by: pitchu Dec 22 2003, 09:04 AM TF, I'm glad you started this thread. Because of the sex industry discussion on the other thread, I've spent most of the morning surfing the web on this topic, starting out as someone who, though knowing something of the dangers and harms to sex workers, has enjoyed viewing pronography and has stood for legalization and regulation of prostitution, much for the reasons you mention. As of this moment, though, I must admit to being a little shaken, and newly unconvinced that legalization and regulation would address the damage. (See some of the reasons why, below.) I'm not sure it's good enough to say prostitution is the world's oldest profession, therefore... etc. Xianity and other stultifying and horrifying religious outlooks and practices are pretty old, too, but we don't let that stop us from denouncing them. Just a thought, anyway. ___________ "About 80% of women in prostitution have been the victim of a rape. It's hard to talk about this because... the experience of prostitution is just like rape. Prostitutes are raped, on the average, eight to ten times a year. They are the most raped class of women in the history of our planet" - Susan Kay Hunker and K.C. Reed, July 1990. "Taking the side of bought and sold rape," speech at National Coalition Against Sexual Assault, Wasington, D.C. "In a study of 475 people in prostitution ( including women, men, and the transgendered) from five countries (South Africa, Thailand, Turkey, Usa and Zambia): 62% reported having been raped in prostitution; 73% repoated having experienced physical assault in prostitution; 72% were currently or formerly homeless; 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately." - Melissa Farley, Isin Baral, Merab Kiremire, Ufuk Sezgin, "Prostitution in Five Countries: Violence and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder" (1998). "83% of prostitutes are victims of assault with a weapon." (National Coalition Against Sexual Assault). "Girls and women in prostitution have a mortality rate 40 times higher than the [Canadian] national average." -Special Committee on Pornography and Prostitution, 1985, Pornography and Prostitution in Canada -350. 80% of prostitution survivors at the WHISPER Oral History Project reported that their customers showed them pornography to illustrate the kinds of sexual activities in which they wanted to engage." Estimates of the prevalence of incest [in the backgrounds of] prostitutes range from 65% to 90%." - The Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Portland, OR, 1991. "The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years." -M.H. Silbert and A.M. Pines, 1982, "Vicitmization of Street Prostitutes," Victimology: An International Journal, 7: 122-133. "The commercial sex industry includes street prostitution, massage brothels, escort services, outcall services, strip clubs, lap dancing, phone sex, adult and child pornography, and prostitution-tourism. Most women who are in prostitution for longer than a few months drift among these various permutations of the sex industry." - Melissa Farley, PhD, Prostitution Research and Education, San Francisco. I haven't included personal statements, histories, which are so emotional in nature as to be highly prejudicial. Posted by: Consummate Deist Dec 22 2003, 09:36 AM Can't vote, but I say that it should be legalized (victimless crime) and regulated - that'd get a lot of the danger out of it (violent pimps and danger of STDs). Posted by: Lokmer Dec 22 2003, 09:55 AM It would be interesting to see studies broken down by areas - ex: a study along similar lines for hookers in Amsterdam vs. New York, or brothel-based hookers vs. streetwalkers. -Lokmer Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 11:09 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 22 2003, 12:04 PM) As of this moment, though, I must admit to being a little shaken, and newly unconvinced that legalization and regulation would address the damage. Pitchu, As I read thru the items you've shared, I couldn't help but wonder how many of these problems are related to the illegal / underground status of prostitution. We see the same levels of violence associated with other activities that have been or were at one time forced underground. The violence surrounding prohibition in the 1920s and 30s, as well as the ongoing violence surrounding illegal drugs today come to mind. Is it possible that the stigma associated with prostitution (because it is seen as dirty, sinful, etc), contributes to the acts of violence against its participants? If prostitution were considered a decent profession I wonder if there would be less social acceptance of crimes against the workers? I want to stress again that I am strongly against anyone being forced into any job or action against their will. And rape should be equally prosecuted whether it involves a prostitute or a nun. I'd like the status and respect of the prostitute to be elevated to that of a nun, so that rapes against both are given the same treatment by law enforcement and the courts. QUOTE 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately. This is a figure that wouldn't be too suprising if it includes people who are forced into the job, or who work in unregulated conditions. I'd like to see the results of the same survey conducted where prostitution is legal and regulated. I'll see if I can come up with information on surveys done in Nevada or Australia or Holland. I don't want my comments to come across as supporting prostitution "at all costs". I would like to see how much of the misery currently intertwined with prostitution is there because of its current status as an illegal and sinful activity. That would give us a better understanding of the impact that legalization and regulation could have. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 11:31 AM While looking for the statistics on legalized/regulated sex worker job satisfaction, I came across this website named "http://www.sfc.org.uk/adults/issue02/02sexwrk.htm". It supports the "pro" viewpoint in the sex worker debate... QUOTE We sex workers are constantly portrayed as helpless, ill-educated women with self esteem so low we allow ourselves to be degraded in public for a living. Oh, and squeeze in a reference to possible abuse as children. By allowing various workers to tell their own stories, our objective was to present the truth - that we are strong, focused people that have chosen a way of earning a living that suits us. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 11:45 AM Here's another http://www.nswp.org/safety/msws/msws-02.html from a health worker involved with sex workers... QUOTE " When I hear project staff say 'the woman in our project don't want to be prostitutes, they are forced into it.' I know from experience that this is not the full picture. More than likely the project worker is projecting her view of sex work. "Namely that she would never do it unless forced. Everytime I have heard that, and then I meet the sex workers I find the same thing — different attitudes, different life stories different experiences. Some hate it some don't." International health promotion consultant It seems like there are at least two sets of people involved as sex workers. There are those who are involved, but don't want to be for various reasons, and there are those involved by choice. Whatever approach a society takes toward prostitution should definitely seek to prevent instances in the first group. I guess the trick is to do that without removing choice from the second group. Posted by: pitchu Dec 22 2003, 12:08 PM TF, There's no denying that there are people in the sex industry who are bright, informed, content; are protected in all ways, are financially stable and are absent those childhood abuses noted by others. But I can't imagine that even the creme de la creme category of people would deny that, for most, sex work is a crippling nightmare. And we won't even mention the ever-soaring numbers of those caught up, against their will, in international sex slavery. The responsibility, as I see it, of a society and its people, is to be able to separate out these two groups, offer freedom for those with no problems and offer a better system of identifying the others, giving them support, financial alternatives, and sustainable exit routes. It probably also wouldn't hurt to revisit the question of what's to be done about a culture dedicated to cultivating or, at best, ignoring, psycological markers in (mostly heterosexual) boys and men which would tend to make them exercise and glorify their ugliest powers over women, girls, and weak, disenfranchised boys and men. For, without this sort of male, maybe all sex workers could be happy hookers like the one you quoted. Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 22 2003, 12:12 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Dec 22 2003, 02:09 PM) Is it possible that the stigma associated with prostitution (because it is seen as dirty, sinful, etc), contributes to the acts of violence against its participants? If prostitution were considered a decent profession I wonder if there would be less social acceptance of crimes against the workers? I think part of the violence we see against prostitutes is the result of the perpetrator feeling a sense of "powerlessness" over their own sexual desires. They see the prostitute as the one holding sexual power over them and it immaculates them; resulting in rage and violence against the prostitute and a renewed sense of power over the situation. My two cents... Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 12:24 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 22 2003, 03:08 PM) It probably also wouldn't hurt to revisit the question of what's to be done about a culture dedicated to cultivating or, at best, ignoring, psycological markers in (mostly heterosexual) boys and men which would tend to make them exercise and glorify their ugliest powers over women, girls, and weak, disenfranchised boys and men. For, without this sort of male, maybe all sex workers could be happy hookers like the one you quoted. I think you're exactly right about this. As we've been carrying on this conversation today, I've been thinking about the child abuse angle. If such abuse is driving people into sex worker trades for the "wrong reasons", then it seems like part of the solution is to tackle the abuse problem. Fewer abused children should result in fewer forced sex workers. Your last post identifies one of the root problems. Reduce the number of men (and women) who abuse children or other adults, and the unhealthy side of the cycle can be dimished. I wonder how much of this leads us back to the "Fundamentalist = Abuser?" question? Are abusers in society created or encouraged by a fundamentalist religion that glorifies punishment, or are people abusers by nature and just drawn to fundamentalism? Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 12:29 PM QUOTE (I BROKE FREE @ Dec 22 2003, 03:12 PM) I think part of the violence we see against prostitutes is the result of the perpetrator feeling a sense of "powerlessness" over their own sexual desires. I agree that an unhealthy approach to sexual matters in a society leads to feelings of powerlessness or shame in individuals. These feelings then can errupt into bad actions that harm the individual and others. It seems like part of the solution would be to change society so that sex is handled in a more mature and open manner. Something that fundamentalist christianity has shown to be against for a long time. Posted by: Cerise Dec 22 2003, 12:47 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Dec 22 2003, 12:24 PM) Are abusers in society created or encouraged by a fundamentalist religion that glorifies punishment, or are people abusers by nature and just drawn to fundamentalism? You know, I think it's probably a bit of both. I think government regulation would be a helpful step to start eliminating unsafe environments or practices for those involved in prostitution. It won't solve all the problems but it would help. What would help the most is widespread recognition and acceptence of the reality of sexual abuse. Believe it or not, I know several people who still believe that it is impossible to rape someone without the victim being willing in some way. I took a class on Freud once and spent a whole two weeks defending my view that incest between father and daughter is not a myth brought on by feminine 'hysteria' but a real and traumatizing occurance in every day life. I had begun calling the class "the Apologetics" for all the ridiculous excuses they came up with for a theory that should have been put out to pasture a long time ago. Does anyone know what the rate of sexual crimes is in Denmark and other places that have legalized prostitution and take a generally relaxed view of sexuality compared to the United States and Canada? That would be interesting to compare. Posted by: chefranden Dec 22 2003, 01:00 PM QUOTE (reach @ Dec 22 2003, 08:00 AM) I'm guessing that it would probably be the rare little boy or girl who thinks as a child, "When I grow up I'm going to be a prostitute." I'm thinking that it is the rare little boy or girl that has the ambition to grow up to subsistence or less wages at Wal-Mart either. The only way for there to be better treatment of sex workers is to get it out of the closet and shine the light of day on it. Even then there will be abuses, but they will be fewer. If poverty forces people to do this work, the law is not only useless it is immoral. The solution is to end poverty, and yes it could be done. Then those who worked in the sex trade or at Wal-Mart could do so because they wanted to. I think that this would tend to include even those who find themselves on the economic junk heap because of abuse factors. Look at the drug war. In spite of the many laws and draconian sentencing, they can't even keep drugs out of prison. We may as well pass laws against eating and breathing while we are at it. Posted by: nightbreeze Dec 22 2003, 01:31 PM It already is legal. Its called "marraige". Seriously, I do think it should be legal, but regulated. Posted by: Libertus Dec 22 2003, 01:50 PM I would probably say that it should be legalized and regulated. It's not something that I have really put a lot of thought in to, but you guys are all great for making some of us think a little out of the box. Like several others here, I just have to look at the fact that it's always been here, and it's always going to be. Why not make it official, so that the people involved can be protected. There are some involved for lots of the wrong reasons, but there are those involved because they like it and it works for them. Maybe a part of that regulation to get your license, as it were, would be a thorough psychological evaluation to look at the motivations of the person and help them if they are being sucked in to something that they really don't want to do. Hey, what's one more bureaucracy going to hurt. I'm not sure that I'd quite compare it with a regular low level job (i.e. the Wal-Mart reference) since it is such a serious thing. A lot of people do jobs that they don't want to, but as far as selling their body for sex, we need to try to keep that to only those who WANT to. Xpen Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 22 2003, 02:24 PM QUOTE (xpen @ Dec 22 2003, 04:50 PM) A lot of people do jobs that they don't want to, but as far as selling their body for sex, we need to try to keep that to only those who WANT to. You know, XPen, I've been thinking about this aspect as well. A lot of people do jobs they don't want to do, because they are "forced to" for various reasons. They may choose a job they hate because it's the only thing available, or at least the only thing available to allow them to live the lifestyle they want. I've known people who took relatively high-paying jobs at chicken processing plants who would have rather been ANYWHERE else, but felt they had no other options at the time. Is it really worse to be "forced*" to offer sex for money than to be forced to offer your labor or mind for money? I'm not suggesting an answer to this question, because I'm not sure I think I have one. It's just something that I've been thinking about and I'm curious what others think. *I'm using the word "forced" in this example to mean "feel there are no better alternatives" rather than "threatened with violence or harm". Posted by: pitchu Dec 22 2003, 04:07 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Dec 22 2003, 02:24 PM) *I'm using the word "forced" in this example to mean "feel there are no better alternatives" rather than "threatened with violence or harm".[/i] TF, I'd say people on the streets pretty quickly know there are no better alternatives, 'cause all the people they're with have already tried. And failed. Chef says, "The solution is to end poverty, and yes, it could be done." I think so, too. The only political reason it's not done, IMO, is that it's politically strategic to maintain a suffering lowest class, in order to get citizens above that level so afraid, they'll agree to almost anything so as not to fall into the USA version of hell. If having no more 11- to 16-year-old Americans out in freezing temperatures, covered with bruises and fucking for a place to crash and a slice of pizza, were to become a political priority, demanded by a democratic majority, I'll bet it could be done in six months -- almost as fast as preparations were made to invade Iraq. Posted by: Dhampir Dec 22 2003, 04:33 PM I think street walking should be abolished. It seems so uncouth, ya mean? Especially when you look at the hookers around where I live, I don't see how they get business... Anyway, brothel based prostitution to me is the way to go. It's much easier to regulate, it's cleaner, and the standards from what I understand are much higher. I kinda think another type of now-legal prostitution should be abolished; "Can you pay my bills, keep payin' my telephone bills, keep payin' my automo-" No bitch, get a job!!!! Posted by: gina Dec 22 2003, 08:59 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Dec 22 2003, 02:24 PM) *I'm using the word "forced" in this example to mean "feel there are no better alternatives" rather than "threatened with violence or harm". Is it really all that much of a difference between that kind of "forced" and this kind of "forced"? I mean, the outcome still consists of unwanted sexual contact. Posted by: Matthew Dec 22 2003, 11:16 PM Anyone who knows me knows that I am a staunch Libertarian, so I definitely believe that prostitution should be legalized. I believe that the basis for most crimes in our society are unlawful initiations of force against people's natural rights. Prostitution involves no unlawful initiation of force between the parties involved. It is completely voluntary and consentual. Therefore..let the people involved in it have their way. As long as no force is involved..what do we or should we care about what two consenting adults do in private, even if money is involved? How is paying for sex in any way different than paying for alcohol or cigarettes? If someone has sexual urges, they're going to find an outlet for it. If a person cannot pay for prostitution..that person might spend the money instead on pornography. Who are we to tell someone what that person can or cannot spend his/her money on? Anyone who does so is basically, if I may be so blunt, an elitist moral snob. What it all boils down to is wether or not we have the right to tell consenting adults what they can and cannot do when no unlawful force is initiated. Prostitution is just such a transaction: no unlawful force is involved and it's pure pleasure between two consenting adults. So what if money is involved? What business is it of anyone else's what people do with their money as long as money is not used to unlawfully initiate force against someone, thereby violating their natural, constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness? Matthew Posted by: pitchu Dec 23 2003, 05:21 AM Matthew The right to do anything that's "Completely voluntary and consensual" is an ideal with which probably few here would disagree. It's the search into what constitutes these two criteria in a complex, coercive and punitive society that's causing the differences in outlook, here. Due to differences in status, wealth, privilege and position in the USA, some of us are able to act in an infinitely more voluntary and consensual way than others. This is gross inequality, within which, voluntary and consensual behavior can never be more than an ideal. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 23 2003, 06:17 AM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 23 2003, 08:21 AM) It's the search into what constitutes these two criteria in a complex, coercive and punitive society that's causing the differences in outlook, here. Due to differences in status, wealth, privilege and position in the USA, some of us are able to act in an infinitely more voluntary and consensual way than others. This is exactly what I've been awakened to in this thread. I still believe that society would be better off with a legalized and regulated approach to prostitution. However, the entire concept of people being forced into acts (of various nature) against their will because of poverty and powerlessness has come into sharper focus for me. Thanks to everyone for opening my eyes. Posted by: pitchu Dec 23 2003, 06:28 AM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Dec 23 2003, 06:17 AM) .Thanks to everyone for opening my eyes. TF, My eyes, too, have been opened to much I hadn't considered before -- thank you for starting the thread. This site continues to be a place of surprising engagements with questions to which I thought I'd already figured out the answers. Posted by: michelle Dec 23 2003, 05:29 PM Im not sure if it should be legalized or not. Is there a practice test? If it was, you would need ID cards, HIV tests, ect. I have personally known a couple of prostitutes in my lifetime. The ones I came into contact with in the 12 step groups were not the ones who were forced. I havent met the forced ones. Pimps should definately be locked up. As far as being forced to work min. wage at Wal-mart or wherever, its just not true. We have something called WELFARE in this country. Im told that you have to work for the check after a certain amount of time but unless you are truly disabled, whats wrong with working? If youre hurt, you get disability. Gotta love this country. Posted by: michelle Dec 23 2003, 05:33 PM Sorry thinking out loud again. Back to the question, should prostitution be legalized? I still dont know, how about looking at it where it is legal? Whats going on over there? Posted by: Matthew Dec 23 2003, 11:16 PM QUOTE It's the search into what constitutes these two criteria in a complex, coercive and punitive society that's causing the differences in outlook, here. Due to differences in status, wealth, privilege and position in the USA, some of us are able to act in an infinitely more voluntary and consensual way than others. This is gross inequality, within which, voluntary and consensual behavior can never be more than an ideal. Pitchu, I am thankful that you remind me of this. Even though I believe that prostitution should be legalized..I have to recognize that not everyone is able to behave in a more voluntary and consentual way than others. I was also reminded that while prostitution should be legalized, often people feel forced into this way of life due to poverty and powerlessness. We should work to reduce these kinds of conditions and help better society. Prostitution is often a result of poverty and broken homes. Illegalizing prostitution will not cure poverty or fix broken homes; it's treating the symptoms of the problem and not the roots. But if a middle class or even wealthy nymphomanic woman wants to sell her body for sex..let her. Matthew Posted by: Reach Dec 24 2003, 07:59 AM In response to the powerlessness you are mentioning, Matthew, I hope it's okay to repost something I wrote in another thread. ... When I was young growing up in San Francisco and exposed to many different races and their unique cultures, somewhere I heard that Thai people were physically the most beautiful people in the world. A book on Thailand put out by Time-Life said as much. Its photographs clearly showed beautiful faces wearing colorful clothes. I realize that that statement would not be made today, being too un-PC. Some years went by and I found myself a traveler to Thailand and I saw with my very own eyes that the average person was quite above average in looks. (I hope my words don’t offend anyone as that is certainly not my intention.) It’s been a few years since I was married to a military man so my terminology may be a little off but the Pacific Fleet of the USN pulled into Pattaya Beach, Thailand for about 5 days of R & R. Twenty-four hours prior to the Navy’s arrival, 5000 prostitutes hit the same little resort beach town. So we had a convergence of 9000 men from eleven ships of the USN (who’d only hit a dock one time in five months so their wallets were pretty full) and 5000 prostitutes who’d come to make some money. Likewise, I arrived a day early and I stood with this second group of people to meet my husband. What broke my heart was this… when I saw this mass of humanity, 9000 mostly average-looking men of all races moving to shore on those inflatable boats and 5000 prostitutes waiting on the beach… what struck me about most of the latter group was that they were just average-looking. Perhaps 5-10% had a birth abnormality or a partial loss of limb due to accident. Some had a small facial defect or were missing the lower half of an arm or had a malformed leg or a couple missing fingers. The worst cases were missing the lower half of a leg and they hobbled along without even a crutch. They were ordinary people, men and women, just like us, except they were not like us in America where most of these small disfigurements would have been fixed by minor surgery, prosthesis, etc… and even charity would have picked up the tab in many cases. From that day on, I’ve never looked at a prostitute in the same light. In Thailand, it seemed, if you were just average-looking, prostitution was the only employment opportunity available to you. I hope things have improved since I was there about ten years ago. ... How tragic that in Thailand being born "average-looking" or with a deformity leads to powerlessness and a lack of freedom in choice! The things we take for granted... reach Posted by: Reach Dec 24 2003, 09:30 AM If I may add to the above story... This experience in Thailand had a very profound effect on me and my thinking. I immediately recognized that I had lived my entire life with a notion of superiority to the type of persons in whose presence I now found myself. From what womb had this notion of being "better than" someone else been conceived? I found my answer, without too much mental deliberation, in a few words I had heard as a child. Growing up in a large family of nine children (due to remarriage) and living with much poverty, I had naturally been totally turned off to such a paltry existence. I was naturally resentful towards these circumstances and frequently asked my mother, "Why don't we go on welfare and get a little help from the government? It would make our lives so much easier." The answer she gave me was, "We are too good for that. Your father is perfectly capable of supporting this family and we may not have much in the way of luxury but we will never go on welfare. It is beneath us. We are better than that." There it was. Black and white. I now could see how I had lived with this deluded perception that I was of more value than another human being. I saw the truth in an instant. From there it was time to reteach my children what I finally came to understand because I had passed along to my little ones the same perceptions I had been bound with. Granted, some habits are hard to break but isn't it wonderful when the light of truth shines through in one moment of time and you see it and you'll never be the same again! I'm thankful for the lessons of life, however they might come to us and I will always pursue the truth. I like the person I'm becoming much more than who I used to be. reach Thanks to TF for this thread and the comments from Pitchu that triggered this conversation... Posted by: sexkitten Dec 24 2003, 10:31 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Dec 23 2003, 05:33 PM) Sorry thinking out loud again. Back to the question, should prostitution be legalized? I still dont know, how about looking at it where it is legal? Whats going on over there? I know that prostitution is legal and regulated in Holland and Japan, and I understand both countries have low rates of sexual crimes and high average standards of living. If we were to look at examples of how to legalize prostitution in a healthy manner, we should look at these countries. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 24 2003, 10:41 AM Several folks have suggested comparisons of sex crime rates in places that have legalized prostitution vs places where it is still illegal. I'm still trying to track down reliable statistics thru Interpol, but until then, here's a source I've found that at least appears to be somewhat objective. It's a position paper called http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html#data It contains crime rate comparisons between several countries (although the countries included seem to be an odd mix). I'll post something additional when and if I hear back from Interpol. Posted by: sexkitten Dec 24 2003, 11:21 AM Those numbers don't surprise me. Except for Canada having higher rates of rape. The nations included are a bit odd. I wonder why they bothered to include Iran, Israel, and Singapore in the table when there is apparently no data for any of these nations on the variables in question. Posted by: Libertus Dec 24 2003, 11:59 AM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Dec 24 2003, 10:31 AM) QUOTE (michelle @ Dec 23 2003, 05:33 PM) Sorry thinking out loud again. Back to the question, should prostitution be legalized? I still dont know, how about looking at it where it is legal? Whats going on over there? I know that prostitution is legal and regulated in Holland and Japan, and I understand both countries have low rates of sexual crimes and high average standards of living. If we were to look at examples of how to legalize prostitution in a healthy manner, we should look at these countries. I agree. I know that a few people have even mentioned Nevada, but I think that this wouldn't give a very accurate picture because LV and Reno are just little spots of legalization in a sea of illegalization (may not be a word, but it works). Criminals, et al, from surrounding areas would mess up the data, I think. Xpen Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 24 2003, 12:04 PM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Dec 24 2003, 02:21 PM) Those numbers don't surprise me. Except for Canada having higher rates of rape. Yes, I was suprised at Canada's figures as well. One other source I looked at gave a reminder that rape is more readily reported in some societies than others - it could just be that women feel more free to report rape in Canada than in other places. I've been struck by the lack of good solid figures, or statistics that agree with one another when researching this topic. It appears to be something that we don't really have a good handle on when it comes to scope and number of occurences. Posted by: pitchu Dec 24 2003, 03:14 PM Thought y'all might be interested in Emma Goldman's perspective from an essay she wrote called, "The Traffic in Women," from the book, "Anarchism and Other Essays" (a collection of Goldman's works). The copyright date is 1910. Reach, I thought you, especially, might be interested in the last few words of this quote: "Our present-day reformers would do well to look into Dr. Sanger's book. There they will find that out of 2,000 cases under his observation, but few came from the middle classes, from well-ordered conditions, or pleasant homes. By far the largest majority were working girls and working women; some driven into prostitution through sheer want, others because of a cruel, wretched life at home, others again, because of thwarted and crippled physical natures..." In nearly one hundred years, so little change... A thirty-six hour g'bye from me to all of you (about whom I'm growing to care, more and more, every day). Ellen p.s. TF, I'm so happy to see the old avatar back -- it always made me smile. Posted by: Reach Dec 24 2003, 04:18 PM Thank you, Pitchu, for searching this out and bringing this old quote to light. This particular tragedy is a real heart issue for me, the more so because as you said, "In nearly one hundred years, so little change..." The wonderful people of this community sure have a way of making inroads into one's heart and I'm grateful for the privilege of having made this connection. To borrow your own words and change just a few so the wording is proper... "Happy Video Day" greetings and I hope you thoroughly enjoy your 10 or 12 rented films which you and your husband have missed and have wanted to catch up on, disgusting junk food -- so nobody has to cook, the phone left to pick up any messages, nobody welcome but you two, cushions strewn on the floor for added decadence, the lights on dim from noon on the 24th through 1 or 2 am of the 26th which has become your absolute nose-thumbing, orgiastic delight of the year. Cheers from reach... P.S. And TF, your "old" avatar is new to me. I need to find me one. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 24 2003, 06:07 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 24 2003, 06:14 PM) A thirty-six hour g'bye from me to all of you (about whom I'm growing to care, more and more, every day). Ellen p.s. TF, I'm so happy to see the old avatar back -- it always made me smile. Dear Ellen - Enjoy your 36 hour holiday! I look forward to your return from video land! I changed back to my original avatar as I felt like doing a little decorating for the holiday and thought this was just the ticket. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 24 2003, 06:20 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Dec 24 2003, 06:14 PM) some driven into prostitution through sheer want, others because of a cruel, wretched life at home, others again, because of thwarted and crippled physical natures One of my most bizarre encounters with prostitution came when I worked briefly in South Korea with a steel company. On my first day at the HQ building I was treated to lunch in one of the company cafeterias. There were televisions along the walls and they were all showing the same program. Scene after scene showed various women on crutches (many were amputees) in squalid living quarters. After each scene was some text. I asked my interpreter what the program was about. She told me that it was a company "public health" show warning the workers to stay away from chinese prostitutes. At the time I assumed it was simply propoganda since the South Koreans consider the Chinese to be enemies. Now I'm wondering how much truth there was to the program. Posted by: ~Josalo~ Dec 29 2003, 10:01 AM Prostitution is legal in Idaho I think..... Posted by: Vixentrox Dec 29 2003, 11:39 AM Prostitution is illegal in South Korea but it is one of those laws that really isn't enforced. They have glass house districts located often next to train stations and I know in at least one case, the police station was not a more than a block or two away from this district. Should have seen the reactions of the Korean hookers when a Korean man, two American men, and an American woman pulled up in the district all in the same car. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 3 2004, 08:41 PM Actually in Judism, it's perfectly legal for a person to sell themself as a prostitute if they are in dire need of money or have no other choice. It actually hapens in Israel alot :-p 'Course that doesn't mean you should do it, especially here in america :-p I belive pimping is what, A misdemeanor and prostitution is a higher offence, or the other way around. Posted by: pitchu Jan 3 2004, 09:40 PM Space Falcon, I'm more than interested in your presenting the Jewish view of this and other topics, but I'd feel I were in more capable hands if you'd spell the name of that religion correctly. Judaism. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 3 2004, 09:48 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Jan 4 2004, 12:40 AM) Space Falcon, I'm more than interested in your presenting the Jewish view of this and other topics, but I'd feel I were in more capable hands if you'd spell the name of that religion correctly. Judaism. Yes, I'm sorry, I always do that. I'm actually a great speller and all, but I am always inclined to write Judism. That's how I say it, and I suppose it just carries over. I also can't spell rediculas... Posted by: pitchu Jan 3 2004, 10:06 PM Space Falcon, Understood. I'm an ex-xian atheist whose second of four children has become a charismatic xian fundy spewing Hell into the brains of my grandchildren and I've been married 19 years to a sabbath-observant Jew. What are you doing here? Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 3 2004, 10:32 PM QUOTE (pitchu @ Jan 4 2004, 01:06 AM) What are you doing here? I'm here thanks to google, the all knowing. heh Seriously, the reason I'm hanging around is simple. I'm sharing an alternative view on whatever, wherever. I enjoy being jewish and I just wish to share a little of it around with people who probbly don't know much more about judism than that it is not christian. I don't know how many people are simply Atheist because they don't know of anything else, but then again, that's not why I am here. If you think I am here maybe trying to convert people by shoving my religion down their throats, that's also not what I am trying to do, only inform. Judism is sort of the inverse of Jehovahs witness', Judism actually asks that people trying to convert be discuraged from doing so, and with reason. It is not in the slightest way easy to be jewish. If you look, there is plenty of jew hating still around, and it's so radically diffrent from everything and there is alot to learn. but in short, I'm more than happy to share and inform people about judism as it's probbly not something they've thought about. Sub note: Oh and I also share no love of the christian oppression, and enjoy hearing about why people left christianity. It seems every problem with christianity is why I'm jewish. As the title bar informs us, we are encouraging Ex-christians . Posted by: pitchu Jan 3 2004, 10:50 PM Space Falcon, Okay. You've got a hard row to hoe around here. Many people here see Judaism (spelling, please) as the evil spawning ground for the religion that's made their lives miserable. And understandably so. I see it differently because my husband has made it abundantly clear to me that plenty of Jewish lives have been made not only miserable but have been extinguished by xianity. Jew-hatred is something I address whenever and wherever I see it. It is definitely growing. But, SF, you might do better here just participating until people get to know you. My friends here don't care for proselytizing of any kind, and if you give them any reason to think that's what you're up to, you'll get creamed. I guarantee it. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 3 2004, 11:13 PM Your spelling is correct pitchu. Understandably so? That is for them to show, and I to correct. If everything is, as you say it is, then it seems I have arrived in time. Judasim like many *misunderstood* things is feared for just that, it is misunderstood and no one knows anything. It is shown even on exchristian.net, the basis of this forum exactly what has happend to the jews over time because of misunderstanding. http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002_10_13_archive.php as it has been put. I only hope that your friends are not dumb enoguh to mistake information for outright evangelism. I am not going to tell you that you should be jewish unless that sounds like that is where you are going. I would just as soon tell someone to be buddist (which I have already done). It is unfortunate that all this clarification comes under the silliest of threads, but please, redirect anyone who belives my intentions to be otherwise, back here. Posted by: pitchu Jan 3 2004, 11:33 PM SF, "Understandably so" is different from "rightfully so" but you should know the real and severe harm and crippling that has been done to many ex-xians here which is the basis for "understandably so" before you launch heavily into "unrightfully so". I've just pulled up all your posts here, so far, and you seem to have a light touch. Good. Buddhist, not Buddist. You may be a fabulous speller, SF, but it ain't showin' up much; spelling and grammar count a good deal, here, since xian spammers are generally so atrocious at both. I strongly advise you to use the spell checker. If your stated aims are for real, you have an ally in me. All my suggestions are to strengthen, not criticize what you say you've come here to do. Just know that support for my friends here is foremost in my mind. Even my Jewish husband and Jewish son would understand that. I'll go the website you noted tomorrow. Right now it's my bedtime. Posted by: nightbreeze Jan 3 2004, 11:43 PM QUOTE Prostitution is legal in Idaho I think..... Thinking about testing your hunch? Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 4 2004, 12:01 AM Spelling spelling spelling. I blame all these years of instant messeging. It's just that need to force quickly come out with whatever you have to say. Online, friends are the people that you become comfortable with and having around. I hope that is how people will see me. I plan everything. By showing a link to a previous forum, totse from my signature, I show that I am no spammer nor ghost. In IFIOTW I have plent spam/outwar/alexchui crap of my own to deal with, so believe me. So don't worry about me, but you're more than welcome to share your impression of me with others. Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 01:15 AM I am pleased to see a Jewish fellow on here. In several ways..I have deeply indebted to the Jewish community for my own personal evolution. A Jewish friend Scott was extremely instrumental in shaping my views on philosophy. One of my favorite New Testament scholars, Geza Vermes, is a Jew. Currently I am very interested in Jewish views on different topics that Christians love to debate us and each over on. SpaceFalcon..would you mind if I ask you some questions? Matthew Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 4 2004, 01:44 AM Another Jew among us...... Score My friend Yoshi is quite versed in a number of religious beliefs, and though I have absolutely no idea as to his own personal beliefs, they definitely seem to be Jewish--though I'm not sure as to what ilk, if that's the proper word to use. He usually posts at theology.com, I think under the alias Yoshiahu or something like that. Maybe you've run into him before. He actually has a website of his own; http://www.ancient-paths.net/. I'm told it's quite popular, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've been there before, either. Then again, maybe we just have an exaggerated opinion of his--for lack of a better word--notoriety. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 4 2004, 06:20 AM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 4 2004, 01:32 AM) Seriously, the reason I'm hanging around is simple. I'm sharing an alternative view on whatever, wherever. I enjoy being jewish and I just wish to share a little of it around with people who probbly don't know much more about judism than that it is not christian. <snip> If you think I am here maybe trying to convert people by shoving my religion down their throats, that's also not what I am trying to do, only inform. <snip> but in short, I'm more than happy to share and inform people about judism as it's probbly not something they've thought about. SF2001, If I understand you properly, you're willing to provide some information about Judaism with us. I have several questions and I note that Matthew also asked if you'd be willing to answer some questions of his. I'll start a new thread "http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=18&t=1891" in the Totally Off Topic section. Again, welcome to our forum and thanks for offering to educate us on Judaism. Posted by: I Broke Free Jan 4 2004, 08:54 AM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 4 2004, 03:01 AM) Spelling spelling spelling. I blame all these years of instant messeging. It's just that need to force quickly come out with whatever you have to say. Whatever you "force quickly come out" is unintelligible!! What Pitchu is trying to convey to you is very important. Your words are a reflection of your message. A good message can be lost if you present it in a sloppy format. I am a terrible speller and write most of my posts in WORD first before copying here. Yes it takes more time, but I find that by doing so it slows me down and I recognize more mistakes and ways I can edit my response to make it clearer to my reader. Most people under 25 years of age have grown up with computers. Communicating with friends in "chat room shorthand" has become the norm, you even see it in most xtian chat rooms. But you must remember your audience and the importance of your message. Chat room shorthand can make the most profound message look "silly." Posted by: likeafish Jan 4 2004, 10:40 AM Falcon, There was a Jewish person who arrived here last summer to "correct" us all on our misinterpretations of the scriptures and the god presented there. I found him to be quite an ass and he went away, I think. His arguments were clumsy, indirect, and uninformed about Xtianity. He usually just repeated himself, and gave little or no credence to the validity of any Ex-Xtians reasonable criticism of scripture because. . . well, how could we know anything at all because we were Gentiles and had it wrong from the start. He would not listen to those of us who had degrees in biblical literature, who had read extensively on the subjects involved--he basically had no regard for what we had to say based on his presumption of our ignorance of all things Jewish. He was wrong. And just so you know, we are not anti-Semites, nor were we all taught to be while Xtians. We are free thinkers here. We are also not all completely ignorant of the Jewish experience, unstudied in the Holocaust, or Israel's political mess, or without Jewish friends. This fellow I spoke of was accorded the greatest of latitude and kindness and he smugly, IMO, took it as an opportunity to parade his sense of religious superiority. In a way, he was no different than any Xtian fundie who comes by here and smugly tells us any number of truths that only they can understand because they are the "real" Xtian in our midst sent to set us straight. And most of them can't write or spell worth a damn. Please do not turn out to be one of those Falcon, whatever religion you represent. We've also had idiotic Muslims to boot, so watch your p's and q's, cross all your t's and dot all you i's. Friendly advice. Steve Posted by: likeafish Jan 4 2004, 10:44 AM And as for prostitution--legalize and regulate, along with pot, and pretty much any other drug. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 4 2004, 03:06 PM QUOTE (likeafish @ Jan 4 2004, 01:40 PM) There was a Jewish person who arrived here last summer to "correct" us all on our misinterpretations of the scriptures and the god presented there. I found him to be quite an ass and he went away, I think. His arguments were clumsy, indirect, and uninformed about Xtianity. He usually just repeated himself, and gave little or no credence to the validity of any Ex-Xtians reasonable criticism of scripture because. . . well, how could we know anything at all because we were Gentiles and had it wrong from the start. He would not listen to those of us who had degrees in biblical literature, who had read extensively on the subjects involved--he basically had no regard for what we had to say based on his presumption of our ignorance of all things Jewish. He was wrong. And just so you know, we are not anti-Semites, nor were we all taught to be while Xtians. We are free thinkers here. We are also not all completely ignorant of the Jewish experience, unstudied in the Holocaust, or Israel's political mess, or without Jewish friends. This fellow I spoke of was accorded the greatest of latitude and kindness and he smugly, IMO, took it as an opportunity to parade his sense of religious superiority. In a way, he was no different than any Xtian fundie who comes by here and smugly tells us any number of truths that only they can understand because they are the "real" Xtian in our midst sent to set us straight. And most of them can't write or spell worth a damn. Please do not turn out to be one of those Falcon, whatever religion you represent. We've also had idiotic Muslims to boot, so watch your p's and q's, cross all your t's and dot all you i's. Friendly advice. Steve I'm not really here to correct your "misinterpritations" of scripture. More any misinturpritations on judaism it'self. Really it sounds like the guy you discribe was not only being a jackass, but out and out not acting jewish. The most shamed people in judism are those who not only know nothing, but refuse to learn. Sure we all feel superior with our religion. We surely wouldn't stay in it if we thought it was inferior, or in cases where someone might for whatever reason, we surely wouldn't want to tell other people about it. In this day and age, it's pretty hard not to really know about the holocaust, I hope to not see any sickos who completely deny it (I have met people like that) and the mess over in Israel is all over the news for more reasons than one. It would be pretty ignorent of me to assume everyone else knew nothing about it, but I will not deny that, alot of the time, is how it feels. Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 04:56 PM QUOTE In this day and age, it's pretty hard not to really know about the holocaust, I hope to not see any sickos who completely deny it (I have met people like that) and the mess over in Israel is all over the news for more reasons than one. It would be pretty ignorent of me to assume everyone else knew nothing about it, but I will not deny that, alot of the time, is how it feels. Who the hell would deny the Holocaust? As for Israel's conflict with the Palestinians, I have historically taken Israel's side. Suicide-bombing of innocent civilians has always been very savage in my book while Israel only attacks military targets to my knowledge. I have viewed groups like the Hamas as being brutal savages who are much worse unsophisticates than German Nazis during Hitler's rise to power. I stand by my philosophy that a civilized man seeks justice and it's only the brute that seeks revenge. Matthew Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 4 2004, 05:55 PM QUOTE (Matthew @ Jan 4 2004, 04:56 PM) QUOTE In this day and age, it's pretty hard not to really know about the holocaust, I hope to not see any sickos who completely deny it (I have met people like that) and the mess over in Israel is all over the news for more reasons than one. It would be pretty ignorent of me to assume everyone else knew nothing about it, but I will not deny that, alot of the time, is how it feels. Who the hell would deny the Holocaust? Many more than you think Matthew. When I was part of the sorority collective, there was a girl who I found out was a 'conservative christian' (let's never mind the fact that I had to force feed her a sandwich because she was so drunk off her ass and hadn't eaten all day, so she wouldn't get sick) who had the opinion that the 'Jews had it comin''. She said that if it did happen then they deserved it. Aye, that's what made me leave. Besides the obvious reasons, it really angered me because she was chair of the sorority's recruitment. Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 06:00 PM QUOTE Besides the obvious reasons, it really angered me because she was chair of the sorority's recruitment. Gawd, I think whoever appointed her chair of the recruitment was more drunk than she was. When she says that if it happened then the Jews had it coming to be atrocious. The Jewish community never had any due persecution coming to them. Matthew Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 4 2004, 06:13 PM QUOTE (Matthew @ Jan 4 2004, 07:56 PM) Who the hell would deny the Holocaust? The kind of people who believe in the mass conspiracy of the cloaked rule of the jews behind all occurances. Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 07:36 PM QUOTE The kind of people who believe in the mass conspiracy of the cloaked rule of the jews behind all occurances. Wow..I have never encountered that mentality personally. I thank my lucky stars. I don't think I would ever want to encounter a person with that kind of screwball mindset. Matthew Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 4 2004, 08:27 PM It's scary. And that girl, Matt, got appointed because she was an ass-kisser. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 4 2004, 08:37 PM Actually, even sicker is some of the ultra orthodox say that the holocaust is a punishment from god. Frankly the holocaust represents everything that god is not. If anything the holocaust caused many jews to drop judism all together. Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 4 2004, 08:42 PM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 4 2004, 08:37 PM) Actually, even sicker is some of the ultra orthodox say that the holocaust is a punishment from god. Frankly the holocaust represents everything that god is not. If anything the holocaust caused many jews to drop judism all together. Good point. One of my English professors is Jewish by culture, but not religiously. Her parents lucky made it to America before the Holocaust, but the fact that it happened still made them turn away. Didn't Elie Weisel become an athiest? I might be wrong on that though... Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 11:39 PM QUOTE Actually, even sicker is some of the ultra orthodox say that the holocaust is a punishment from god. Frankly the holocaust represents everything that god is not. If anything the holocaust caused many jews to drop judism all together. They sound like Christian fundamentalists. I guess you would call them.."Jewish fundamentalists"? I guess there are going to be radical ( maybe "reactionary" is a better word?) fundamentalists in all faiths/religions. Matthew Posted by: .:ºstankdeezº:. Jan 4 2004, 11:46 PM he never said if he was or not in any of the writings of his that i've read jez... however, in Night, he did say numerous times that god had left him and later, that there was no god. it hurt to read that book poor fellow... so young... to have to see such horror warmly, Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 11:53 PM QUOTE it hurt to read that book poor fellow... so young... to have to see such horror It would have hurt me to read that book as well. I wouldn't even have to agree with the authors religious views to be able to imagine the gruesome horror that he saw or to think that his religious views which gave his people and community such an identity were sadly destroyed by one of history's ugliest atrocities. Matthew Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 5 2004, 01:27 AM Thanks, stanks. I think that's what I was thinking about. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 5 2004, 08:16 PM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 4 2004, 11:37 PM) Frankly the holocaust represents everything that god is not. I disagree. If the bible is taken literally, yahweh brought the equivalent of the holocaust to many different races/nations at the hands of the israelites. Entire societies were wiped out in horrible blood baths that also included rape, torture and dashing babies against rocks. And according to most christians, god has an eternal holocaust in store for the majority of humanity. I'd say the holocaust was very god-like. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 5 2004, 08:22 PM QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ Jan 5 2004, 11:16 PM) If the bible is taken literally, yahweh brought the equivalent of the holocaust to many different races/nations at the hands of the israelites. Entire societies were wiped out in horrible blood baths that also included rape, torture and dashing babies against rocks. -------------- And according to most christians, god has an eternal holocaust in store for the majority of humanity. True, but god is no sadist. He did not go exterminating people through intense preplanned, as painful as possible, execution meathods. With nation wars then, it's bound to be more than a little native. --------- I think we can all agree the christian god is more than a little mutated from it's original ideal. I don't worry about the eternal damnation, and neither should you. You're no longer christian so evenmore so, it's not what you believe in, and shouldn't be a problem. Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 5 2004, 08:50 PM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 5 2004, 11:22 PM) True, but god is no sadist. God not a sadist? We must be reading different accounts... QUOTE Genesis 3 16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. QUOTE Lev:21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. 22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your |