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ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Sex and Christianity > Should I Just Grow Up?
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Apr 2 2004, 05:45 PM
I rarely, if ever, ask for advice or opinions and I've come to realize lately that I should do it more often.
Anyhow, I have this idea in my head that 99% of women want security and they want a man to provide for them. I have seen many cases where I feel men have been given the short end of the stick: in divorces, child custody, abortion, etc and to be honest it makes me angry. I also feel that sex is of such great importance to women that I don't even want to go there because I know I'll fuck everything up.
I know I'm an idealist, but I can't help but think years down the road I'll have child support to pay and an ex-wife to hand out alimony to. I'm afraid if I have even one sexual encounter, I could be charged with rape, or she could possibly believe that it meant much more than it did, or I'd forget to call and - or I'll just get dropped or rejected... Just shit like that.
I know it sounds stupid, but my main problem is that I'm not perfect and I want things to be perfect with a girlfriend. I want to do and say the right things - I want to know what those things are. Just like with everything else, my life is on hold because I want to work in secret and then come out with everything at once and just suprise the hell out of everyone.
Women frustrate me mainly because it seems when there's a way something could be taken the way I meant it and another evil way it could be taken, they always choose the worst interpretation, even after I explain to them what I really meant. I met a potential gf several months back and all we could do was argue. Nagging from her: "why don't you get a job?" Response: "I don't think you understand how hard it is to do out here" followed up with her: "Just leave me alone. Go away" and it would just degenerate into irate meaninglessness from there. My patience would be exhausted. I honestly feel that what I hear about women being the more mature sex after my experience is a load of bullshit.
And I know I'm generalizing here. But fuck it. I don't want to bash women, but I would like to be able to stand up for men too. I don't want every little thing I do to be criticized. I just want to have a friend, someone who will trust my judgment and fix my worst parts by complementing instead of criticizing them.
Women are just too damn frustrating. I just want to be able to get along by being myself, and that just isn't good enough. I have to become someone else, and then I feel so fake that I wouldn't even want to be with a woman under those conditions.
Where am I going wrong?
Posted by: Reach Apr 2 2004, 06:02 PM
Ahhh... the impatience and zealous idealism of youth, desiring perfection and/or completion and thinking that it can be achieved without much hard work, sacrifice, blood, sweat, tears and cost.
The concept of delayed gratification comes in to play as well.
Beloved friend, look for a woman you want to grow with, one with whom you can picture being old together, one who is not too fearful of change and not so stubborn that she's unteachable. If she is that, she'll already be most of what you are hoping for.
Relationships are not found. Neither are they born or won. Relationships that are worth having are always built.
Enough said for now,
love from your friend reach
Posted by: Muggy Knubber Apr 2 2004, 06:03 PM
I think lumping all or most women into one group is where you're going wrong. Every woman is her own individule puzzle box. There is no one solution for your frustration with women. Is there a specific woman you don't understand?
Posted by: bob Apr 2 2004, 06:13 PM
jj, I have only one bit of advice. It's this one word;
ENJOY
It appears to me that you are trying to damn hard. Develope friendships, male and female. If a relationship turns into more, remember the word...enjoy. If they just stay simply friendships....enjoy. Friendships are to precious to overlook. Me and my wife were good friends for 5 years before we married. Just relax and enjoy.
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Apr 2 2004, 06:13 PM
QUOTE (Muggy Knubber @ Apr 2 2004, 06:03 PM)
I think lumping all or most women into one group is where you're going wrong. Every woman is her own individule puzzle box. There is no one solution for your frustration with women. Is there a specific woman you don't understand?
All of them, unfortunately. To be fair, all of them I have come across. Even my personal favorites on exchristian.net mystify me.
Posted by: Lanakila Apr 2 2004, 06:14 PM
All women don't want security out of every single relationship. That desire for the ideal love relationship is always out there, but that doesn't necessarily mean security and/or marriage. I think men want that ideal love relationship as well. Men can come on too strong, and be all emotional and in love way too early in a relationship, just like women can. The ideal is of course for both people to have the same feelings for each other, at the same level, and at the same time.
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Apr 2 2004, 06:15 PM
QUOTE (reach @ Apr 2 2004, 06:02 PM)
Ahhh... the impatience and zealous idealism of youth, desiring perfection and/or completion and thinking that it can be achieved without much hard work, sacrifice, blood, sweat, tears and cost.
The concept of delayed gratification comes in to play as well.
Beloved friend, look for a woman you want to grow with, one with whom you can picture being old together, one who is not too fearful of change and not so stubborn that she's unteachable. If she is that, she'll already be most of what you are hoping for.
Relationships are not found. Neither are they born or won. Relationships that are worth having are always built.
Enough said for now,
love from your friend reach
It would be difficult indeed to find a woman like you...
You're only rare proof that they actually exist!
Bob:
I can't really enjoy much of anything. When I was a Christian, I always thought that I would be "placed" somewhere. Now, I know have to grab what I want and hold onto it, but I don't know what that is.
Damn, I'm way far behind for 24.
Lanakila:
Wish I could get into women's heads...
Posted by: pitchu Apr 2 2004, 06:42 PM
My darling Jjackson,
Imo, you're way ahead of where most men of 24 are. You can examine facts as facts and feelings as feelings and not confuse the two. You are careful about generalizations, and name them as such, even when you make them.
If you really do want advice, this is mine:
Print out your opening post on this thread (might want to soften a few expletives) and tack it up in your territory wherever they'll let you, with a big heading on the top that says something like, "Woman: If You're Ready To Take On Someone Like Me, Please Phone _________."
I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Muggy Knubber Apr 2 2004, 07:03 PM
Don't worry about how to hook up with women. You'll figure it out. One day, you'll find that they're often easier to get than they are to get rid of.
Posted by: PriorWorrier Apr 2 2004, 07:06 PM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Apr 2 2004, 05:45 PM)
I also feel that sex is of such great importance to women that I don't even want to go there because I know I'll fuck everything up.
You've obviously already solved your problem!
Posted by: PriorWorrier Apr 2 2004, 07:11 PM
QUOTE (reach @ Apr 2 2004, 06:02 PM)
Relationships are not found. Neither are they born or won. Relationships that are worth having are always built.
I agree. Relationships are a lot of hard work. Equal measures of love and hate. The majority of it is mundane, boring, steadfastness, plugging along...
A lot of ups and downs, but it's worth it when you finally realize you're not in it only for yourself.
Posted by: PriorWorrier Apr 2 2004, 07:24 PM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Apr 2 2004, 06:15 PM)
I can't really enjoy much of anything. When I was a Christian, I always thought that I would be "placed" somewhere. Now, I know have to grab what I want and hold onto it, but I don't know what that is.
My mother planted that romantic notion in my head that there was only one woman on earth meant for me, and all I had to do was find her.
In my estimation, 50% of women my age were potential candidates. Just pick one willing enough and jump right in. Then plan on doing some hard work to build a relationship.
e-Harmony will do some kind of compatibility assessment for free for you, but I think you need a mate with enough differences in values, likes, opinions and tastes to open up new horizons for you. Forget the compatibility.
In the immortal words of Stephen Stills.
If you can't be with the one you love, honey, love the one you're with.
You've just got to make a life for yourself wherever you find yourself.
Posted by: Fweethawt Apr 3 2004, 01:39 AM
JJ,
If there is any ONE part to Reach's post that I think you should pay very close attention to, it would be the middle paragraph.
Reach wrote:
QUOTE
Beloved friend, look for a woman you want to grow with, one with whom you can picture being old together, one who is not too fearful of change and not so stubborn that she's unteachable. If she is that, she'll already be most of what you are hoping for.
Oh, and before I forget, I'll try to answer this question of yours.
JJ wrote:
QUOTE
Where am I going wrong?
You're not going wrong anywhere. You are learning. Pay attention to everything, even the confusing parts. Eventually, something will click, and you'll have a better understanding. (not complete, just better)
Posted by: Dhampir Apr 3 2004, 10:07 AM
QUOTE
I know I'm an idealist, but I can't help but think years down the road I'll have child support to pay and an ex-wife to hand out alimony to. I'm afraid if I have even one sexual encounter, I could be charged with rape, or she could possibly believe that it meant much more than it did, or I'd forget to call and - or I'll just get dropped or rejected... Just shit like that.
Sounds exactly like me there. EXACTLY like me.
QUOTE
Anyhow, I have this idea in my head that 99% of women want security and they want a man to provide for them. I have seen many cases where I feel men have been given the short end of the stick: in divorces, child custody, abortion, etc and to be honest it makes me angry. I also feel that sex is of such great importance to women that I don't even want to go there because I know I'll fuck everything up.
A lot of this is what I wanted to say for quite a while. I have decided that I am never marrying. Ever. I may even become celibate, just cause you can never tell, ya'mean? You may think you know a person, then you do the deed, and the next day you wake up in jail. Shit, I know most women aren't that foul, but you never know.
A lot of this stems from the shit that I have heard and seen first hand from all the women in my life, but I think I have just come to believe this relationship thing is overrated. I mean, I'm never having kids, so why get married? I'm not interested in relationships anymore, not even casual sex. I just need companionship. Too much goes into intimate relationships, and I guess whatever I had in me to contribute to such a thing has been squeezed out of me, by all the other women in my life.
Posted by: toecutter Apr 3 2004, 10:44 AM
man, girls are hard. It's so difficult for me to find a girl I can enjoy spending time with, let alone can imagine having and intimate relationship with. I'd love to have a special someone to cuddle with, and spend all day with, and go on road trips with, and picnics, and all those amazing things that i've always wanted. it just seems like those girls are all somewhere else. I don't want a perfect girl, i just want someone different, exciting, and intelligent. physical attraction is a plus as well, but man, what i'd give for companionship.
Posted by: .:ºstankdeezº:. Apr 3 2004, 11:02 AM
jjax,
there's plenty of women out there that can and want to provide for themselves and do so happily as well as being just as confused about the sexual area of relationships, and just as afraid.
the right one is out there. keep your eyes peeled.
hugs,
stank
Posted by: woodsmoke Apr 3 2004, 04:28 PM
If you need to grow up Jackson, then I'm right there with ya'. As usual I could identify perfectly with damn near every word you typed.
My most recent act of stupidity was when I bought a ring for my recent ex. I had reservations about buying that particular article of jewelry to begin with because I knew the cultural significance associated with rings and I didn't want people getting the wrong idea. I also knew that she wanted me to get her one to prove in some twisted way to her emotionally hijacked mind my feelings and commitment to her. Well, I caved, and as I knew I would, I came to regret it. First people thought it was an engagement ring. After she finally got them to realize I hadn't proposed to her, this girl told people it was a "promise ring." She knew full well that ring held no such significance to me, but she refused to face reality and wanted to try to manipulate things and people to conform to the way she wanted them to be. She wanted so badly for me to be the person she wanted me to be rather than who I am that she was willing to try to bully me into it.
Just last night I was speaking with another old girlfriend of mine. She told me the only thing that kept her from sleeping with me was that she knew the next morning she would mean nothing to me. I honestly replied that it wouldn't have meant nothing, it just wouldn't have meant what she wanted it to.
In that respect, I feel we're in the same boat. I'm confident that not all girls are this way, but all of them I know want the kind of stability and long-term commitment in their relationships that I'm neither ready nor willing to give at this point in my life.
That's probably why I've just given up trying for the time being. I have no problem going on dates and having a good time with girls I know, but I won't let it develop into anything serious.
Fuck it, at this point in my life serious relationships are nothing but a pain in my ass and a drain in my wallet. I'm going back to my original plan of moving up north, isolating myself from the world at large in the middle of a whole lotta' wilderness, livin' for myself and to hell with it all.
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Apr 3 2004, 10:13 PM
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Mainly, this girl was talking about marriage the first day we met, dropping hints like "if we were married, we would argue all the time" - SLOW DOWN, girl - we just met, so what I am reading here is really resonating with me. I don't want marriage either, ever - the arguing only really started after I told her how I felt about marriage and then she tried to pull out the cookie cutter on me and squeeze me into it: "oh he's a nice guy, but if he could only have a job and wants to get married". STOP, REWIND, HIT PLAY. What did I say? I don't even want to play the courtship games or "pay to play". I don't mean to be insulting, but that seems more like an archetype for a glorified whore to me. Let's just hang out and see where it goes... Why is that so hard?
Also, I've noticed that sometimes I'm treated like a walking boner if I approach a woman just for friendship's sake. Some girls tell me that they try not to even look at guys because it could be taken as an invitation. HOLD UP, HONEY. I've got enough porn at home to keep from getting a hardon for every girl I see, and even if I do have a hardon for you, I still know who's in control so I'm not going to let go of my "friend" without your permission. I can't help but think the whole system is lame and retarded.
Of course if I don't play the game, you know all of her friends and family will be telling her what "a loser" I am. I want even ground. It just seems like too much effort and time to put into something that could disappear overnight leaving my wallet, my heart and my hands empty. And after such an incident, I could almost guarantee that I'd just drop everything and head out into the woods, giving the finger to the world. I know this because I'm bordering on reaching that point already. I mean, I'm at the point where I'm asking myself if there is more to life than working my ass off for a two day hiatus, going home to get nagged at and doing it all over again? That life sucks, man. Is getting money for this really a fair exchange? That's why married people make me sick. I just can't be around them. The woman turns into a paragon of virtue and clean thought, the man becomes a big whining necktie or dockers-wearing motherfucker and trades in his balls for a minivan to cart the kiddies around to soccer practice. No thanks! I'd like to be a badass - I'd like to remain a badass and do whatever the hell I want for the rest of my days. You know, like a renegade, a highwayman taking from the tax man and overthrowing authority. Yeah! Well, that's my fantasy anyhow. I want to live by the sword and die by it. Of course, I'm sure the reality of that existence takes alot of the romanticism out of it, but you know what? I want to fucking run my own life for a change and not be beholden to anyone for anything.
I often wonder whether having what I have and looking to have more or taking up the quest to better myself and find an answer to life is really a distraction from what is real, but if I let go of this life to seek another life which fails, the life I had before will have forever slipped away from me.
There are just too many pitfalls lining the road to female companionship. Maybe if I just pretend, things will work out.
Posted by: Fweethawt Apr 3 2004, 10:27 PM
JJ,
After reading your post, it isn't completely evident to me that "women" are your point of focus at this time.
What does become evident to me is that, you are at a point where you are on the brink of making decisions that will define a life of your own, for YOU, before you introduce anyone else into it.
Perhaps you can take this as a different starting point, no?
Posted by: Matthew Apr 3 2004, 10:44 PM
QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Apr 2 2004, 10:24 PM)
e-Harmony will do some kind of compatibility assessment for free for you, but I think you need a mate with enough differences in values, likes, opinions and tastes to open up new horizons for you. Forget the compatibility.
Woa, wait a minute. I would be very cautious about trusting e-Harmony. It's founder worked for Focus on the Family and is a good friend of Dr. James Dobson. He might be a relationship expert but I suspect that he believes relationships will only succeed when both partners are committed to Jesus Christ.
Matthew
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Apr 4 2004, 03:06 PM
QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Apr 3 2004, 10:27 PM)
JJ,
After reading your post, it isn't completely evident to me that "women" are your point of focus at this time.
What does become evident to me is that, you are at a point where you are on the brink of making decisions that will define a life of your own, for YOU, before you introduce anyone else into it.
Perhaps you can take this as a different starting point, no?
True, I want to have my shit in gear before I want to allow anyone else in, but then what if that never happens? I think it would be better if I could find someone who sees me as the mess I am now.
I don't want to push things that I'm not ready for, but on the other hand I could be ready for it and just not recognize that I am. I just don't have forever and I don't know whether having a girlfriend will make things better or worse.
Posted by: Fweethawt Apr 4 2004, 08:52 PM
JJ:
QUOTE
True, I want to have my shit in gear before I want to allow anyone else in, but then what if that never happens?
You are already smart enough to know that the "What if?" question can be thrown at anything, at any time, in any circumstance. Those two nasty words will lead you to success or away from it, in anything.
JJ:
QUOTE
I think it would be better if I could find someone who sees me as the mess I am now.
After reading your posts, it sounds to me like you're looking for one of those sweet little dumplin's that like "Bad Boys". You know, what I'm talking about don't you?
JJ:
QUOTE
I don't want to push things that I'm not ready for, but on the other hand I could be ready for it and just not recognize that I am.
Like I said before JJ, you're learning whether you realize it or not. Sure, it sucks sometimes, but your learning. Nobody can give you the solution to the above quote. Nobody!
JJ:
QUOTE
I just don't have forever and I don't know whether having a girlfriend will make things better or worse.
I hate to say this but, trial and error are probably your best buddies at this point. Right now, somewhere, there is a girl that has these same thoughts going through her mind. The likelihood of you meeting up with that girl is remote, but even if you were to hook-up with her, you would probably find that you make some things better for each other, and some things worse for each other.
I'm going to tell you this again. What Reach wrote makes perfect sense. Read it, study it, absorb it, and ingest it.
Reach wrote:
QUOTE
Beloved friend, look for a woman you want to grow with, one with whom you can picture being old together, one who is not too fearful of change and not so stubborn that she's unteachable. If she is that, she'll already be most of what you are hoping for.
Relationships are not found. Neither are they born or won. Relationships that are worth having are always built.
If you are under the assumption that you can just wake up tomorrow and find yourself a Ms. Right, you're setting yourself up for a big disappointment. I really hate to say this JJ, but if there is a girl out there for you, it's just going to happen.
It is the growth factor that is the key, in my opinion. If either of you grow to a point where the relationship becomes unbalanced, there's a good chance that there will be problems. You'll stop understanding each other, and you'll be unable to communicate at the same level of understanding.
JJ:
QUOTE
I just don't have forever
You're right, you don't. I can not relate to your apparent hurry with this. When I was your age, I already had about 5 years of marriage, and two children under my belt. Don't get me wrong, I love my children dearly, but there is a part of me that would love to be in your shoes. If I were, I wouldn't rush a damn thing!
Posted by: Lokmer Apr 4 2004, 11:16 PM
JJ, what can I say? The relationship market and game is desperately fucked up, mostly because people have forgotten how to be with other people instead of looking at everyone as a particular cog in their universe? Lonely? Find a woman. Bored? Find someone who's throwing a party, have an affair, start some shit, etc. etc. Most people do not know how to be anymore.
I can guarrantee you that not all women turn into brainless virtue-pretending victorians when you marry them. You've seen my wife, Sexkitten, around here on the forums. Spunky and sparky, very sexy and naughty, and can make a crowd of sailors blush if she's in the right mood. She is who she always was - and this in spite of the enormous cultural pressure for her to become the "perfect wife" from both our church environment and from her very traditional Japaneese mother. Those times were very difficult, but she's a stronger woman than she knows, and she made it through still being herself.
Men, too, tend to become "respectable" after marriage or a long romance. Where women are "tamed" men are "whipped" - in either case it's a matter of selling your soul for a safe delusion. Two real people who love each other *should* have spectacular disagreements occasionally - they should fight long and hard for what they think is right. Sometimes, an honest disagreement can mean people need to part ways, which is sad, but not tragic. Tragic is when people are too dishonest with themselves and their partners to risk the honest disagreement because they respect and trust their partners enough to deal honestly and as adults.
In any case, learn who you are. If you don't know that, you aren't in a position to share that with anyone else. Right now, you are expecting to get the shaft from anyone and everyone, and whether you notice it or not it profoundly effects the way you deal with people. In essence, your defences make that expectation a self-fulfilling prophecy. A person gets hurt, they put up walls. Because of those walls, they can't make normal judgements anymore, and (paridoxically) it makes one more likely to be hurt again.
Having been a fan of your posts over the months, JJ, I can comfortably say that where you are is not unusual, and even though it isn't fun, it does not have to be permanent. With your general nature (and I'm not joking here) you might seriously consider joining a Biker club. I've known a lot of bikers in my time - good, rascally, ornery bastards (both the men and the women) who'll pass you a joint or beat the shit out of you, but you always know where you stand once you learn the social code. You may find a community suited to your general worldview - who knows?
In either case, keep up the self-evaluation. Broaden your horizons. Be out among people, and train yourself to take risks. Everyone loses big. Some of us lose REAL BIG. But, in the end, the only true loss is staying out of the game.
Best of luck!
-Lokmer
Posted by: Fweethawt Apr 4 2004, 11:22 PM
Dang Lokmer!
I was just getting ready to tell him the same thing!
Posted by: woodsmoke Apr 5 2004, 02:45 AM
Okay, I've been meaning to add another reply to this thread for a while now, and now it seems I'm going to make two or three. Anyway.....
As usual, I know exactly what you're talking about. The girl I was with most recently would do the same thing, only she would try to twist the issues on me. "We don't have to have a religious ceremony, we can just be married by a justice of the peace." This said knowing full well that I care for marriage about as much I do religion. I'll admit it's partially because I suck at them, but I hate the courtship games with a passion. If two people like each other, just hang out and see where it goes. No need to keep their distance until they've known each other long enough for it to be "socially acceptable" to get together, nor to jump straight into a serious relationship; just start it up, give it a whirl, and see how it works out.
And since when the fuck did it become a social taboo to have friends of the opposite gender? Hell, I've probably got more lady-friends than otherwise at this point in my life. That doesn't make me gay, that's just the way it is right now.
As for your comment about working for shit and getting fed up with it all and retreating into the woods....if I had a dollar for every time I've felt the exact same urge, I'd be a recluse millionaire by now.
I don't understand why relationships should have to change after a government lisence is acquired. Though the reference is definitely an obscure one and out of the blue, that made me think of something. I'm playing the SNES version of Harvest Moon on my SNES emulator on my computer lately (I know I'm a loser--what can I say, I love country-life and farming and such, even if it the epitome of a crappy conservative dream game), and recently proposed to one of the girls and got married--immediately after which she stopped wearing the regular clothes she'd been wearing straight up to the point which fit her personality rather well and took to wearing modest pioneer style dresses and being a homemaker and perfect conservative wife. Of course, through all this my character continues just as he always has, still farming and ranching and whatever else he needs to do with the only difference being he now has someone else to talk to in the house when he finally stumbles in. I realize it's just a game (and a crappy conservative dream game, at that); but it still made me gag.
I'm with you, dude. Fuck working 40+ hours a week day in and day out, getting paid jack shit to make even more money for an already rich off his ass corporate bastard for the better part of our lives, then retiring to a beat-to-shit old man's body with nothing in the bank and all our dreams flushed down the sewers decades ago. There's more to life than this bull shit, and damn it we're going to find it!
Posted by: woodsmoke Apr 5 2004, 03:37 AM
There's a main point I've been wanting to make here for some time. I think the culture we live in has taken the relationship ideal and blown it up into something more than it is.
As soon as we're able to understand the concepts, we have these romanticized, exaggerated notions of "true love" hammered into our skulls as the only medium of happiness in this life. That's the ultimate goal to pursue; to find the one you're meant to/want to be with for the rest of your life and settle down to a life of happy bunnies, shiny rainbows, and pretty flowers. It's all over the place, everywhere you look. "Livin' On Love," "All you need is love," "Love conquers all," etc. You just can't escape the message that "love" is the only thing in this existence that will make us really happy.
As well, we're always taught we're going to have to make major sacrifices in order to obtain this "ultimate happiness." Of course, in a culture dominated by a religion which centers on sacrifice, this shouldn't be too much of a shock, but it still rubs me the wrong way. "If you want to find true happiness, say goodbye to partying with the guys, poker night, tailgate parties, extended trips away from home, etc." The way I see it, to find "true happiness" you have to forfeit damn near all the things that bring you happiness!
I'm not saying I wouldn't be willing to make compromises where they can be made, and I'd be willing to sacrifice some things if I had a truly legitimate reason for doing so. I would love to find someone I could spend the rest of my life with. However if, in doing so, I'm required to toss overboard the joys in my life that mean the most to me--my independence and personal liberties and freedoms--I just may be better off single.
Of course, to counter this, the implication is also made that a person who never finds their "significant other" to spend their life with are missing out on something and they're always portrayed as being sad and lonely when the day ends. People who don't want to be married are usually viewed as just being immature about it or something. People who honestly never feel this compelling urge to find someone else to spend their life with are labelled mentally unsound, as if there's something wrong with them. Just like with a lack of belief in God, most people just can't believe that others simply don't feel the need to have a partner in their life.
I'm sure there are any number of people out there who are living single, who have been doing so for most of their lives with no intention to change that, and are perfectly content in their lifestyle. On the other hand, it saddens me to think how many must be living in accordance with the cultural norm, putting themselves through so much unnecessary constant strain by living in a relationship which they have no real desire for.
If you ask me, this "true love" bull shit as it's parroted by our culture is often overrated and blown way out of proportion, and rarely as good as it's cut out to be. I realize it can be a great thing, but as with everything in life, it's not for everyone.
Posted by: moorezw Apr 5 2004, 05:33 AM
Woody and JJ-
Patience, grasshoppers.
Posted by: Dhampir Apr 5 2004, 08:36 AM
QUOTE
I want to fucking run my own life for a change and not be beholden to anyone for anything.
Couldn't possibly have said it any better...
Posted by: Dhampir Apr 5 2004, 08:42 AM
It isn't really about growing up so much as it is about change. I think there's nothing wrong with the way I think about things pertaining to relationships, and if I spend my whole life thinking that way, then so be it. I don't care for relationships, and such, I've noticed that around this time in my life, it becomes the 'in' thing to do, get a girl that is. I personally have never been more than nominally worried about convention, and JJ, I fully agree that for some people the give and take of a conventional relationship is too much to really interest them. I think I'll live off porn, it doesn't expect anything from you, and when you put money towards it, you own it. "what about companionship?" I have friends, what more do I need?
Posted by: The Pure One Apr 5 2004, 03:59 PM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Apr 2 2004, 05:45 PM)
I know it sounds stupid, but my main problem is that I'm not perfect and I want things to be perfect with a girlfriend. I want to do and say the right things - I want to know what those things are. Just like with everything else, my life is on hold because I want to work in secret and then come out with everything at once and just suprise the hell out of everyone.
Ah, youth. ;) You guys make me smile, and groan, all at the same time. Moorezw said it best, "patience, grasshoppers". You're in the process of growing up. I'm going to take a different tack though, with an extremely verbose response, in the hopes that you may glean something of value from some part of it. These are the things I wish a future version of me had delivered via time capsule, though in reality I don't know that it would have made a difference. Are we ever smart enough to take advice from our elders, or do we have to make the same mistakes we were warned about before we understand? Probably the latter. But I do want to offer something, if it ends up as casting pearls before swine, so be it. ;) So here we go, The Pure One's Guide to Women, Dating, and Relationships. Ignore it, laugh it off, but I recommend you guys print it out and refer to it from time to time. If nothing else, when you're older, you'll look at it and go, f'in dammit that guy was right, and I ignored it. F@#$!!!And the sound of disembodied laughter will ring in your ears.
First of all, your comment about wanting perfection makes me think of someone who wants to be a great boxer, but who wants to woodshed his punching and defensive technique, footwork, etc. so that when he finally steps in the ring, he'll wipe everybody out and will never get touched. Obviously, that won't work. You can only get good by having the ring experience, not by avoiding it, and yes you will get hit and occasionally have your ass handed to you in the process. Life is a full contact sport, and no one gets out alive. If you have a heart the size of a mustard seed all the woodshedding in the world isn't going to prepare you, you need to get in there now and mix it up, and you will grow as a person. Self-perfection and self-mastery is the name of the game. So let's get to it...
Women are not that complicated, any more than men are. Some are at different points in their lives and want different things from life and relationships, some are nuts, etc., so this isn't a statement that they're all the same. But a normal, healthy, well-adjusted woman is not difficult to understand, nor are her desires a big mystery. At a basic level, a woman wants to be appreciated and adored for who she is, the same as you do. She wants you to be emotionally available and honest, instead of a lying, cheating wreck. She wants to be treated well. I won't even attempt an all-inclusive list, but in shorthand remember this: in large part it's not how she feels about you, it's how you make her feel about herself. If she likes the picture she sees of herself from your eyes, she will glow and she will bestow upon you the wondrous things that only a woman is capable of bringing to your life. In the end, how you make her feel about herself and how she feels about you will become part of the same thing. And if you consider this carefully, it's no different than what you want. Do you want to be with a woman who makes you feel awkward, fake, stupid, ugly, incompetent, lazy, etc, or a woman who adores you and makes you feel like an intelligent, handsome, caring, manly stud? Kind of a no-brainer, huh? The only confidence you need is the confidence that you deserve to be treated in a way that makes you feel wonderful. A relationship is a mutual fulfillment of needs, not an obligation. If it doesn't feel good, and you can't make it better, get out. Don't waste time, life is short.
Step one is to know what you want in a relationship at this part of your life. You're young, and I don't think anyone should settle down before 25, or later if you've led a sheltered life up to this point. It is perfectly reasonable to decide that you want to work on your career, or you are otherwise not looking for a "serious" relationship that will lead to marriage and a family. It is within your right to want what you want. There are plenty of women who would be up for the same. Some are older and divorced, some are tired of relationship hassles based on some bad experiences, others just know they aren't ready for something serious, and they would be happy to have a friend/uncommitted lover without a lot of strings attached. If you are open and honest about your desires, you can be up front about this and weed out the ones on a marriage quest. And a marriage quest is silly anyway. It's shouldn't be a goal of its own, otherwise you risk overlooking incompatibilities that will cause trouble later on. So if a woman ever asks you if you're *looking* to get married, that is a red flag to you to wonder if the goal is more important to her than the proper process. If asked, I think the proper response is along the lines of "I'm open to it if I find the right person, but it's not a goal of its own for me".
Dating
Whether you *know* you don't want any sort of committment, or whether you are open to getting serious *if* things naturally head that way, the process of dating is the same.
Dating is auditioning people for compatibility. Compatibility is emotional, intellectual, physical, and spiritual. Provided you are always open and honest during the process, you are entitled to pursue a relationship until such time as glaring, incorrectible incompatibilities in *any* of these areas are apparent. And amidst the googly feelings of romance, you need to keep a part of your head clear to constantly assess these things. Is she a bible-thumper and you're an atheist? Bzzzt! Big spiritual incompatibility there, best to not even try to fit a square peg in a round hole. Move on. Your time, energy, and resources are precious, and there is always another more compatible one around the corner. Do you absolutely love getting blowjobs, but she gets squeamish at the mere thought? Bzzzt, major physical incompatibility, move on. Is she a homebody who likes to read and watch movies, while you are an intrepid outdoorsman? Can you not converse with her on mutually interesting topics? Intellectual incompatibility. Do you argue over stupid things constantly? This could be a warning sign of emotional incompatibility.
A side note here, you will often hear that relationships are a lot of work. In reality a relationship is not a third person, a separate entity you can point a finger at, it is two individuals coming together for a mutual fulfillment of needs. The work that needs to be done is on *yourself*. Never ever forget this. You cannot change the other person. You cannot 'fix' the relationship. You can only work on yourself. If the other person cannot rise to that challenge themselves, such that the two of you can overcome any challenges, move on. If you constantly argue over stupid things, look to yourself as to whether you are a big part of the cause, and learn control. Relationships involve compromise. I can spend all day playing my guitar and surfing online, but this is selfish. I can't have all time to do whatever I want to do, and expect a relationship to flourish at the same time. Balance in all things. Relationships are the crucible of self-perfection. This is where your mettle as a human being is tested, dissolved, forged, and reborn. Relish the chance, do not shy from it.
In practical terms, this means you are within your rights to be with someone, including full sexual relations, before realizing that you are not compatible. Breaking up with someone you have been very intimate with, or having it done to you, is not fun but is necessary in *both* your longterm interests. Do not shy from it, or shy from relationships because you may have to do it or it may be done to you. Resist the urge to take it personally, and if you are the instigator be compassionate to her in trying to get her not to take it personally. No one has a right to do damage that will follow a person through future relationships, that is not the way to be a humanist or a good human being. It is not that you are not good enough, or she is not good enough, but that you are not compatible. This is the way to clean, honest, respectful breakups where you may even retain friendship. If someone breaks up with you, thank them for not wasting any more of your time....and do not! Do not waste any more time or energy on them. Unless circumstances are extraordinary, do not get back together with anyone either. The incompatibility or mental issues that led them to break up with you have with 99.99999% probability not gone away, and you are wasting precious time and energy to pursue it again. This tip alone can save you years of anguish. No second chances, move on.
Before I delve more heavily into practical dating tips, some more general advice. One thing that most men are unaware of regarding women is their fear of men. As men, unless we're in a bad area of town, we think little or nothing of walking around by ourselves. Not so for women. Some 30% or more (don't know the latest statistic) of women are attacked in their lifetime. It's a shocking statistic really, but the practical reality is that for self-protection women *have* to be very cautious. Their first concern with you is whether you are some sort of creep/slasher who is a danger to them either immediately or down the road. Seen in this light, the Angry Young Man wearing the scowl and the Metallica T-shirt to scare/impress other Angry Young Men is going to get exactly this much pussy thrown at him: zilch, zero, nada, bupkis.
Apart from the safety concern, it is a fact of biology and culture that given an attractive female, the overwhelming majority of (straight) men would like to stick their dick in her. So approaching her with a vibe of "wow, I'd like to stick my dick in you" isn't going to thrill her, she's had enough of that. Personal anecdote here: I used to live in Long Beach, which has a very large gay population. I rarely got hit on, but I recall once standing on the corner to cross the street, and getting whistled at by some guy going by in his car. I have nothing whatsoever against homosexuality (if I did I couldn't have lived in Long Beach!) but it was offensive. I *know* how women must feel getting leered at. It was like, hey I'd like to stick my dick in you and toss you aside like a used Kleenex". Very demeaning. On the other hand, my best friend's wife's brother is gay, got drunk at my best friend's wedding, and let me know that if I were gay and he didn't have a boyfriend, he'd be all over me. I laughed, and he put it in a way that actually felt like a compliment.
So leering at women is a no-go, and like a dog can smell fear, they can smell if you have any real interest in them vs. their vagina. There is a way to show your appreciation for a woman, without leering, the way James Bond looks at a beautiful woman across a casino. Just recently, I was driving down my block, and in front of my car walked a gorgeous woman, long jet-black hair, great body, pretty face. I looked at her with open appreciation and a slight smile that said "yes, you are a beautiful embodiment of all that is feminine". I have a girlfriend and have ZERO intent to hit on anyone, but this doesn't mean not appreciating women. She understood it as a "wow, and wouldn't it be nice" sort of look, flashed a huge smile and a spark in her eyes, and we went on our separate way. Incidentally, such things are good for raising a man's testosterone level, which is not only healthy, but is then of good use to you and the embodiment of feminine energy that graces you with her presence at home. Incidentally if you have a spiritual bent and want a really great read on spiritual appreciation of women as a man, and dealing with them, I heartily recommend The Way of the Superior Man, by David Deida. But I digress.
Anyway, you want to practice this appreciation of women, everywhere. *All* women are embodiments of the feminine, and have their feminine qualities to be appreciated, from the young beautiful girl to the old matronly type. I'm not talking about flirting per se, but interact with all those you come across with a smile, a witty comment, a genuine interest in them. They all have fascinating stories. You will never be a woman, nor will you ever meet one from which you have nothing to learn. Apart from raising your appreciation of the feminine, you are practicing. Practicing being open and friendly, *smiling* instead of the Angry Young Man scowl. The practice has multiple functions, not least of which is when you do run across a female that sets your head spinning, it won't feel like getting called out of the stands in the bottom of the ninth in the World Series when you chat her up, because you do it all the time. Don't expect them to come to you, equality aside, they have the luxury of wanting you to make the first move. Absorb the feminine energy in all its forms, and enjoy. Another potential side effect of such practice is that women you are not interested in at all, may put in a kind word about you to women that you *do* have an interest in.
This is a hugely important area. In line with the above safety/creep/woman-hater concern, once one woman vouches for you, it's like you've had a credit check done by EquiPussy. If you are single, women will treat you like a leper far more so than if you have a girlfriend or female friends. In fact, the more female attention you have, the more it will snowball and the more you will get, because your Perceived Value goes up. People are like stocks or any other commodity, much of the value assigned to you is Perceived Value. Same works for women, if there is beautiful girl in your neighborhood that all the guys want, she seems that much more attractive because everyone else bids up her stock value. Well, the same goes for you. Angry Young Man Hiding in the Woods has a vaginal stock value of...you guessed it...zilch, zero, nada, bupkis. They will not come hunt you down because of how wonderful you know yourself to be. Sucks, but that's how it is.
Personal anecdote to illustrate a lot of this: in the not-too-distant past I had an on-off relationship with a bit of a psycho-woman. Notice that I said on-off, which means, yes, I violated a rule mentioned above about no second chances. Well, I have eaten this dogfood and know whereof I speak. This is the benefit of painful life experience, being handed to you on a silver platter. Said nutball was extremely attractive, and it was some time before I overcame the fog of beauty and realized I had my head up my ass dealing with her. We still kept in touch occasionally as we had a friendship prior to getting naked. She called one night to chat, and as it happened I had a dinner date with the girl who is now my girlfriend, so I said, whoops, gotta go, date's here, talk to you later. Unbenownst to me at the time, this sent her into a fit of jealousy! She was an attention whore, and even though she was trying to work things out with a longtime on-off boyfriend (psycho warning flag), the thought of losing any attention from me to another woman drove her nuts. You will encounter many such Attention Whores in your dating life, learn to read the warning signs. All of sudden, I started getting crying voicemails from her, whereas she had been indifferent to me before. So, for old time's sake and for whatever other reasons, I got together with her occasionally, and strange as it seems to me now about a year later, there was an overlap period where I was sleeping with both of them, something I don't normally do. At that same time, there was also an attractive woman in my office who I had given good complimentary attention (big mistake! another rule broken...no office involvement!) and when we'd had a bit to drink at the office xmas party, she cornered me in my office, straddled me on my office chair, whipped off her top and bra, and had me bent back with her tongue down my throat. Practice with open and subtle appreciation can work extremely well, let me tell you.
Now much as I would like to claim things have always been this way, this is the benefit of experience, and it illustrates the point that women are fired up by competition because it raises your Perceived Value. It also illustrates the importance of confidence. You don't need fake confidence, or arrogance, all the confidence you need is the confidence to know that there *are* women out there who will appreciate you. That's it. Any particular one could blow you off for a great number of reasons, none of which necessarily have to do with you. After all, she doesn't *know* you. She could be having a bad day, have just gone through a bad breakup, be busy with work, or have any number of reasons for not wanting to complicate her life with a relationship right now. A great comment from Gene Simmons of Kiss is that even before he was a famous rockstar, any girl that blew him off "just didn't get it". This is the attitude to have. It is not arrogance, just the certainty of your own value to *some* women, not all women. No man can have any woman he wants, he can only have the women who want *him*. And the best way to have this certitude is to actually have other women interested in you, to date more than one woman (you don't have to sleep with more than one, or even any). So here was an attractive woman who was used to guys chasing her, taking her to fancy dinners, etc., blowing them off, and here the tables were turned. Because I had not one but two women I could sleep with anytime I wanted to, I absolutely did not give a rat's ass if things progressed any further with her, and this showed in my interaction with her. It drove her *nuts*. The most amusing part to me was that she assumed that I was the bad-boy type, because I really didn't care about kissing up to her in the slightest way. I'm actually a very nice guy, so it was comical to find myself in the bad-boy role without ever having tried. I had let her know I thought she was attractive, but I didn't bother going after her. I'd be talking to her, and my cell phone would go off, and I'd have to excuse myself as one of the other women was calling. God, it was beautiful. It spun her up more and more. She would tell her girlfriends at the office that I had 5 girlfriends who were always calling me. I saw a note she wrote to one of them about how she daydreamed about me during meetings, was madly in love me with (triple psycho warning, not being able to tell the difference between a crush and love). But it was the hard-to-get/other-women-want-him-so-he-must-be-wonderful thing that raised my Perceived Value so high.
And it should be mentioned that it was highly likely that she didn't want me for a serious, longterm relationship. Don't assume that all women are interested in super-serious relationships leading to marriage. It was quite obvious that the Xmas-party bit was *very* unlike her, she wanted to do something wild just to say she did. Trust me, she wanted me to pull her hair, do her in the ass, and call her a cum-hungry little bitch. That way she would have some fantastic orgasms to think about when the guys who send her flowers and take her out to expensive restaurants are boring her to tears. Always remember, you want to be THAT guy, not the doofus falling all over himself to impress her.
Women can smell desperation, and will be bored with you. When you act like you don't care, you are a challenge. Pique her interest, and then let her come to you. Her interest level must always be high, or you lose. If she doesn't follow up, move on, she's not interested. Don't keep giving her attention, really move on. And don't put all your eggs in one basket by pursuing only one woman, or it will be that much harder not to care what any particular woman's response is.
Now on to some more practical rules. My first recommendation to young single horny guys, is to listen to Tom Leykis' syndicated radio show (www.blowmeuptom.com)for his Leykis 101 dating rules. These are designed for the I-wanna-get-laid-but-don't-want-committment guy, but they apply to those who aren't against something substantial developing as well. I have to insert a big caveat here that I DO NOT agree with Leykis' views of women. He is something of a misogynist and does it for entertainment and ratings. The rules "work" because you come off as confident, and avoid the trouble of the being the "nice guy" who gets constantly taken advantage of and endlessly frustrated. In effect then, being a bit of jerk gives the *superficial* appearance that you are a confident, desirable male, but it's of course far better for all to actually *be* a confident, desirable male who handles himself well while treating women well. Truly like and appreciate women, and let it show, and let it show that you're not concerned with whether they appreciate you back, because some other woman certainly will.
Rule: Do not spend more than $40 on a date.
Why: Because you want to weed out the Gold Digging Whores. A woman who is into you will sleep with you because she wants to, for free, not because you buy her things. If you go on a shopping date and she goes, "Oooo, I love this Prada purse, will you buy it for me?" dump her instantly. And I mean *instantly*, have her take a cab home.
An Attention Whore, or her more extreme sister a Gold Digging Whore, will be happy to have you shower her with gifts of attention and/or actual gifts to the extent that your wallet and stupidity will allow, usually without showing you a hint of vagina in the process. Think about it. If a woman won't sleep with you unless you drive an expensive car and make $$$, she is a high-priced whore, and whatever that price is, there are plenty of men for whom it is cheap. A high-priced whore is still a whore. A woman whose vagina is not for sale, is price-less, and truly priceless, and those are the ones who are girlfriend and wife material. Don't throw money at her, be interested in her. For example if she likes horses, get her some cute little horse-related thing that costs 35 cents. To a decent woman, the fact that you devoted the brain cells to remembering her interests is worth vastly more than the cost. And in truth, if you like her this should be natural for you, because you *are* interested in her. If you just want a vagina, get a hooker.
Now don't confuse this with a normal woman's concern/interest with your financial potential. Studies show that to a man, occupation is meaningless when it comes to attraction. Put a hot girl in a McDonald's uniform, and she's still hot. But show women the same guy in a McDonald's uniform and the same guy in the suit, the one in the suit is rated more *physically* attractive. This makes biological sense. Given that any male would want to impregnate an attractive female, her selection boils down to who can provide a future for offspring. It's fair, though usually not conscious, so don't hold this against women.
A normal woman won't care if you're currently rich, but she does want to see that you have some direction in life and won't make her end up paying the bills. You don't have to show up for a date in a rented BMW unless you want to be a lying fake, which will only bite you in the end. But failing to clean three weeks' worth of McDonald's cheeseburger wrappers out of your car is not going to fly. You may think, hey, it's me, she should like the real me. Bzzzt! Wrong! It's disrespectful to her, and shows her that if you care that little at a time when you should be putting your best foot forward, what kind of a loser/dick are you going to be down the road? Clean your friggin' car, trim your nosehairs, wear age-appropriate stylish clothing, and look like you care about yourself and the impression you make. Watch Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, it's a great, uplifting show amongst all the crime dramas on TV, and the interior design guy never fails to amaze. Or, be Angry Young Man, the Pussyless. Your choice.
In any case, the $40 is part of a general rule, no buying nice gifts for women whose vagina is unknown territory to you. This will prevent you from being not the good kind of nice guy, the honest, manly, woman-appreciating guy that women want, but the bad nice-guy, the doormat that women come to to chat with about the guys they wish would bang them. Remember, it's not your interest level in her that matters, it's her interest level in *you*. Would James Bond shower a woman with gifts for 6 months, hold her hand and listen to how mean her ex-boyfriend was (you know, the guy that drilled her in the ass while calling her a cum-hungry slut, the one she's fantasizing about being with while she's soaking up the attention from you, sweet caring doormat nice guy who never gets the good stuff)? In a word...no.
Rule: Don't pick up the phone on weekends.
Why: Never forget Perceived Value. Picking up on the weekend says . You apparently have nothing going. Even if you really *do* have nothing better going on than whacking off, or working your way through the latest PS2 game, or hanging out with your buddies, you are in demand and a busy man. If she wants a date on the weekend, she should call early in the week, not at the last minute. She will be thinking about you, and be busy imagining the cute girl(s) you're spending time with, whether they are cuter than she is, etc., and generally getting more spun up about you. Her interest level dictates your vaginal access, period.
Rule: If you are interested in getting laid, if it doesn't progress there in a reasonable amount of time, move on. Your time, energy, and resources (even kept to cheap dates) are valuable. Leykis recommends 3 dates, but this is pretty aggressive. Still, if getting laid is your goal, you don't want to waste time. Dating is about auditioning for compatibility, but in practical terms it is also a numbers game. Play it according to the payoff you are looking for, and stick to it.
Rule: Don't ask a woman what she wants to do.
Why: It annoys them, for the most part. You can ask, but always be prepared with a plan. A woman wants to be able to relax and let you take charge. That's your job as a man. When she doesn't feel like it, you carry the load, and she wants the security of knowing that. Such is life, no point wasting your energy moping about it, just deal with it.
Rule: Don't mess with coworkers.
Why: Unless you want to risk losing your job or having other HR issues, there are plenty of women elsewhere.
Corollary: Don't even practice the complimentary/flirting/appreciating stuff at work, unless you want harassment charges and other HR nightmares. Keep your work your work.
Rule: Leykis has a major rule about not dating single mothers. For a young man out to get laid, this is an important one. I would generalize this rule and say a) insist on two forms of birth control, and
if her stance is anti-abortion, and you know she will keep a baby in the event of an accident, KEEP YOUR DICK IN YOUR PANTS AND MOVE ON!!!There are many nice single mothers, and many would be into a casual relationship, but there are other fish in the sea who would likely be less problematic.
I could go on all day, but this labor of love has taken enough time. Specific "rules" can be derived almost ad nauseum if you understand the basics, in fact you don't need any rules other than that you deserve to be treated well and be happy, and so do any women in your life. Relationships are a negotiation, and they are optional. If you are not happy, and can't see a way to fix the unhappiness, get out. If you are at a point in your life where you are not open to settling down after a suitable run with a very compatible girl, then do not get into committed relationships at all. Simple. This doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun. If you live in some ultra-religious town, and are a young horny non-religious guy, well then get the hell out to California or some similar place, for fuck's sake! Why retire to the woods and beat off even more?
Dating tips aside, when you least expect it you *will* come across a girl who is everything you could ask for and more. You will feel comfortable with her, and she with you, and it will feel wonderful. Don't settle for anything less than that. Read that 1000 times. It's supposed to feel good. Allow time for the initial googly-ness to fade so you can think about her with a clear head. Work on yourself and your faults, but be objective. If she is causing problems in the relationship, she is probably a beyotch who needs to be kicked to the curb. At the very least she fails the compatibility test then. Be good to yourself, don't try to fix the hardluck cases or correct her mental flaws, just move on. If everything is going great, give it a year, two, even three. Then you will have to decide if you can stand to let her go. If after a good long time together the answer is an obvious, no f'ing way can I let her go, then without ever meaning to you'll be ready to settle down. Or not. That will be up to you. But always remember, it is about *your* growth and *your* self-perfection, and your relationships are the crucib