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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Shedding Of Blood - Are Things So Bad : Posted by: SOIL Dec 11 2003, 09:31 AM I read a post this morning (a couple of times) by Connie (I think) ... AKA GodzillaBless. As I will mention in the original thread (under 'Rants and Replies' forum) - I just couldn't ignore what she put in her signature. I am saying some about that - here - instead of in the thread she started - because I don't know if it would be appropriate for me to post this content in that thread. I figure she doesn't have to come over into this forum to read my comments if perhaps she may not want to hear how this Christian reacts to the content of her signature. Here is her signature as of when I read that post: QUOTE "Christmas is that wonderful time of year when other people open their Christmas presents and I'm opening my wrists." That has grabbed my heart. I was reading in Romans this morning (after I had read the post the first time) and I came upon a passage that spoke of the blood of Jesus - and at that point I remembered reading her words "and I'm opening my wrists.". I understand that she probably thinks Christianity is the cause for her to try to take her life by 'shedding her blood' - but as I see it - Christianity could be a reason why she would not need to do that. For me anyway - I don't even consider "opening my wrists because I figure that since Jesus shed his blood - well, then that is good enough. Somehow I think he shed his blood because of all of the suffering in this world -- so, no more really needs to be shed. Here is a portion of the passage I was reading : QUOTE Romans 5:6-11 (ESV) For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— [8] but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. [9] Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. [10] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. [11] More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. My mind (like I am sure many of the reader's of this post) doesn't tell me in very clear terms that the above scripture passage really applies specifically to what I said above the quote box. But for some reason, I think there is a Spirit somewhere in me that says it does (in some important way). I know in Connie's original post she spoke about Christians talking about how they don't care if others 'go to hell'. Yes sometimes we Christians still fall back into our 'old nature' and I am ashamed of it. But, I think God does care about whether people will 'go to hell' - and I think that is why Jesus shed his blood for us (even while we are yet sinners). As for me - I rejoice in God because I believe both in Jesus' sacrificial death and his law fulfilling life. And each time I receive communion, I remember that God shed his blood - and so - I have a reason so that I don't need to. Dennis Posted by: michelle Dec 11 2003, 11:16 AM Each time you take communion you remember that God shed his blood so you dont have to? Okay, so what about when you sit down in a Catholic church, it is stated that ONLY catholics can go up there for that communion? You have to join their convert program in order to take part in the communion. What does that mean? Did jesus say somewhere that only if you read his book are you good enough to take part in communion? Personally, I dont want anyone dying for me. You loved me enough to die for me or my sins? Thats sick. Can they please fix this book up? You may not know it but some people commit suicide because of the so called sins of their fellow man. Cant you see what a bad role model Jesus is? Its my opinion that every time you take communion, you indentify with Jesus. Im not trying to be rude, Im still trying to understand what happened to me. Posted by: chefranden Dec 11 2003, 11:23 AM Romans 5:6-11 (ESV) For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— Soil, I would guess that you have never been in a war, where boys give their lives for their comrades with out regard for their righteous condition. I'm sorry that I've been hard on you lately, but your continual piling on of scripture as if it were some book of magic spells that if you just wave arounc enough will make every thing all better. Just because you've been hoodwinked into thinking double speak has meaning doesn't mean Godz will. Though I can't speak for her, I would find it insensitive at best and an insult at worst. QUOTE (Soil) I know in Connie's original post she spoke about Christians talking about how they don't care if others 'go to hell'. Yes sometimes we Christians still fall back into our 'old nature' and I am ashamed of it. But, I think God does care about whether people will 'go to hell' - and I think that is why Jesus shed his blood for us (even while we are yet sinners). Even if has made it all better for you the rest of the world is steeped in suffering. So if is real then he is real selective about who he helps. Which African country is most christianized? That's right Rwanda. Was too busy making things nice for you to help out over there? What about the behavior of christians in Yugoslavia? What about little girls raped in the name of Jesus. What about grandfathers forced to eat their grandkids livers in the name of Jesus. It is impossible to give credence to your claims in the face of the evidence. What comfort is there in this Jesus? And don't go spouting some bible verse. I've read it. Deal with the problem of evil head on if you have something to say. Show how has improved life, without hiding behind pie in the sky by and by. Chef Posted by: michelle Dec 11 2003, 11:31 AM ps so you know where Im coming from, I took pills that were suppose to kill me, when I was a Christian. I really wanted to die. Imagine my surprise when I woke up in a hospital still alive. I said GOODBYE that night. Unfortuneatly I was sick enough at that time to find the balls to do it. Or should I say coward enough to do it? I dont care if it was courage or fear, it should have never happened. Do you know how many people werent lucky enough to live through a suicide attempt? And thats what it was for me, luck, Jesus didnt save me. The pills just werent strong enough. I remember walking around the library looking for a book on what people used to kill their selves. I know, its insane but thats where Christianity took me. Its been about 2 and half years and no I am no longer insane. Posted by: michelle Dec 11 2003, 11:40 AM that last post was to soil Posted by: Libertus Dec 11 2003, 11:56 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 11 2003, 11:23 AM) Romans 5:6-11 (ESV) For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. [7] For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— Soil, I would guess that you have never been in a war, where boys give their lives for their comrades with out regard for their righteous condition. SOIL I must whole-heartedly agree with Chef. There are real people dying and suffering for the sake of others at no fault of their own, I will venture to say, every day all over the world. Do we worship them? No, in most cases we don't even honor them. We have soldiers dying in Iraq everyday? Yes, and though I may not agree with how they got there, many of them are doing it selflessly for us. Do they receive honor? Not really. Jesus was allegedly god almighty, right? Do you really believe that we should be going out of our way to honor someone who allegedly had himself killed in a way that many other's had died (many likely innocent) knowing that he wasn't really giving up his life, 'cause he was coming back, twice no less. This is not even mentioning the fact that he allegedly did this why? Because he said so. But, did he say so? Well, that's debateable since the OT doesn't really say anything of the kind, but the point still remains that if he did it it's because he, for some sick reason, wanted to. He made evil, he made stupid rules that often went against human nature, and he decided what to do. That would make it his fault and his problem and not mine (or ours). I think Connie's been there done that and maybe even bought some t-shirts, but the nonsense is still just as useless as it ever was for getting results on it's own. Xpen Posted by: SOIL Dec 11 2003, 12:15 PM QUOTE (michelle @ Dec 11 2003, 11:31 AM) ... ... I know, its insane but thats where Christianity took me. Its been about 2 and half years and no I am no longer insane. Michelle, I am very happy that you no longer feel like you need to kill yourself. -- I truly am -- I don't want to sound condescending - I say it again ... I TRULY am VERY happy that you no longer feel like you need to kill yourself. I believe there are are many people who say the reason they have not killed themselves is because of the Jesus who they have found in Christianity. I am not questioning either what you are saying or what they are saying. I am however trying very hard to understand why people like you believe that Christianity is what caused you to want to kill yourself. (I feel so strongly about wanting to understand - that I am basically risking my job - by spending so much time here reading - and also posting too much). I know you have read this before from other perhaps equally callous and insensitive Christians - but I do still sincerely wonder if the "Christianity" which "took" you to the act of trying to kill yourself - is in fact the 'gift' that Jesus thought he was giving to this world. (Since this is the Christmas season - I have gifts on my mind just now.) If it is truly'real Christianity' that has caused you to try to kill yourself - then I should also renounce it - but obviously - at this point - I just don't see things that way. My failure to understand about whether or not your decision to kill yourself happened because of true Christianity -- does not mean I care any less for you - or at least it should not - if indeed the way I understand Christianity is correct. Dennis Posted by: SOIL Dec 11 2003, 12:59 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 11 2003, 11:23 AM) ... Even if has made it all better for you the rest of the world is steeped in suffering. So if is real then he is real selective about who he helps. Which African country is most christianized? That's right Rwanda. Was too busy making things nice for you to help out over there? What about the behavior of christians in Yugoslavia? What about little girls raped in the name of Jesus. What about grandfathers forced to eat their grandkids livers in the name of Jesus. It is impossible to give credence to your claims in the face of the evidence. What comfort is there in this Jesus? And don't go spouting some bible verse. I've read it. Deal with the problem of evil head on if you have something to say. Show how has improved life, without hiding behind pie in the sky by and by. Chef Chef, I am sorry that I have been so interested in so many other things shared on this site that I have not taken the quality time (yet) to respond to several of your very insightful posts. The thing you just mentioned about Rwanda for instance has recently been weighing very heavy on me. I will here quote one sentence from G.K. Chesterton: QUOTE Bad is so bad, that we cannot but think good an accident; good is so good, that we feel certain that evil could be explained. I think that the presence of sin is ultimately to blame for each of the things you mentioned. I understand that the fact that there are so many so called practicing Christian people in Rwanda makes it hard to understand why there would still be enough sin going on there for the recent tragedy to have happened. This is yet another thing that makes me hang my head in shame. Yet - I don't remember saying that all Christians always act like a Jesus said we should act. (See my own posts in the 'Sex and Christianity' forum for interesting examples). As you probably know, I could also mention similar atrocities which have happened in (and by) countries who claim that no God exists (Stalin comes to mind) - however that doesn't reduce my shame. .... "What comfort is there in this Jesus?" I said in this thread that I personally "rejoice in God". I think I remember reading yesterday a post written by Jesus Freak (sorry I haven't learned your regular name yet JF!) - where he mentioned about some comforts which Jesus has blessed him with. There are many others I believe who could "testify". My father is one of the happiest people I have ever known. He is a minister of the 'gospel'. He has taken care of my mother (and continued to be sexually faithful to her) through years of heart-breaking mental and physical torment - he was armed with the help and "comfort" which Christianity has provided. I believe He too will say he rejoices in God - now - and perhaps even more also in the "pie in the sky by and by". Chef, I know there are many other things you have said in other threads which I haven't yet got around to responding to. Again I'm sorry - I have been too distracted by other things. I hope to get to them - but I also need to do some work - so I wont promise anything soon. I care about you - and I think you care about me also - (though perhaps you don't really understand why you should care about me). I am sorry if that remark has offended you - I don't mean it that way - and I probably shouldn't try to guess how you may reason. I think the truth in Christianity provides the answer for much of the way that you - and others here - act like you guys and gals do (with compassion and a desire for truth and honesty). Once again - I am trying to understand the people who are venting here. ( I know you will probably not hesitate to tell me "how you REALLY FEEL" ! ) ... "So if is real then he is real selective about who he helps. I think he helps in ways that we can not always see by looking from the outside of someone's own heart. And also perhaps for some, they/we don't even understand he is helping us while that help is "in progress". I think when we do get to the "sweet by and by" - we will at last be able to understand things a whole lot better. For now; I have faith. I still 'rejoice in God' - because I feel like his Grace is so real that, - as G.K. Chesterton put it : QUOTE ... good is so good, the we feel certain that evil could be explained. Dennis Posted by: GodzillaBless Dec 11 2003, 03:19 PM Posted by: BillJ Dec 11 2003, 04:04 PM This is how I see it, if Jesus was the son of god, he had the easiest life. He claimed that there was eternal bliss, and he had to spend one day on a damn cross. If I knew I was going to spend eternity is some kingdom, a kingdom that I desired, I wouldn't care if I got eaten alive by red ants. I'm going to reject christ until I meet him myself and judge him, but I don't think this will ever happen. Osiris, Mithras, Tammuz, Adonis, Balder, Attis, and Dionysus deserve more credit, they shed blood before christ, though neither of their deaths, as well as jesus', had any effect whatsoever on the presence of evil in our world. Posted by: likeafish Dec 11 2003, 04:53 PM I can barely stand the forced sincerity of this time of year. I feel for you Connie. So we just had from Dennis: 1) "The Lord works in mysterious ways" defense of god 2) The "Chances are you just haven't experienced the real Jesus" excuse for why we don't believe anymore. 3) And the ever pragmatic "It was good enough for dad" reasoning. It should be no surprise to most folks here that not a single one of those gets a person very far when it comes to finding a good reason to be a Xtian. Well, that's assuming you are an Ex-Xtian who has spent the effort and slogged through what it take to get to the point where you are free enough to think about the world outside of the Xtian one you were once so absorbed in. As for the first "reason," there are an endless number of ways to spin that one such that god does both everything, or just some things. Those critical of religion suggest god should take the blame for all of it--all the pain and brutality and viciousness given the claims of "salvation" and rescue and promise after promise to answer prayers. The faithful have all sorts of clever ways to get god off the hook of responsibility for anything that reeks of evil, cruelty, or poor management skills for a Lord and King of all. The evidence, however, suggests that god does nothing, nothing at all. God, in this sense, is dead. Things haven't changed much since the complete and total satisfaction of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross 2000 years ago. One could make a case that things have only gotten worse in some respects. Regardless of one's historical view, let's say no kingdom has come, and we have wasted a lot of time and energy and resources on trying to convince god of our worthiness of his favor (worship--"worth"-ship). He ain't coming back. It's a myth. As for the second little piece of speculation about not knowing the "real" Jesus--how smug can a person be and hide it under a shroud of false humility. If that isn't a judgement call, I don't know what is. This sort of thinking really pisses me off. Dennis, when did your cross become the true cross? Not only is this a weak argument, it shows a complete disregard for the experience, intelligence, and feelings of the people you so cloyingly say you care about. Who put you in a place of judgement over what is real for someone else, and for that matter what is really god? Maybe you should write a bible since you know which Jesus is the real one. Xtians just cannot fathom the fact that someone could sincerely spend their life in the church, live their life for Christ, and then one day, for all sorts of reasons, many of which are actually well thought out and deeply felt, leave it. What proof do you need that someone believed in the "right" Jesus? A former missionary. A former minister? A former you? Talk about ridiculous and insulting. And as for the last reason for holding on to Xtian faith, because someone you admire does, that's not a completely bad reason. But it isn't a completely whole and sound one either. Imitation is fine, but we have to grow up and live our own lives. Individuation is tough. Some people refuse it to a great degree and do indeed "follow in their father's footsteps." But everyone steps over into death alone. No one can do that for you. My sense is no one can really live for you either. I'm guessing you aren't one of those who believes in infant baptism, so right there you confess to a view of the human person that is fundamentally individualistic. The age of accountability. Your father's faith may serve as some example, but it is your own faith that matters, no? It cannot be an imitation, it must be authentic, and that authenticity is gained through a personal choice, or so goes the doctrine. This all leads to a discussion of that very notion of choice, which I do not see available in Xtian thought, not in any substantial way. The arguments over free will are futile within the Xtian context. God will have his way no matter what. Choose god or be annihilated. God chooses you or you are annihilated. Neither of these theological perspectives connotes freedom. This is not choice, and it is not unconditional love. To my mind, the Xtian claims for god do not match the Xtian image of god. Everything in between is theological and rhetorical spin, designed to keep the believer guessing--is it or isn't is god? Grace? Providence? Judgement? Is god doing something, some things, or anything? God does nothing because god is nothing. God isn't. Connie, cut it out with the suicide humor!!! It pisses me off because you're talking about somebody I like! YOU are SOMETHING as long as you're here. And as long as you're here there are possibilities. We don't need to have god or bibles or to make a choice between confusing religions or enjoy dumb holidays with fake emotions. We only need to choose our own lives. Steve Posted by: chefranden Dec 11 2003, 06:22 PM [QUOTE=]I think he helps in ways that we can not always see by looking from the outside of someone's own heart. And also perhaps for some, they/we don't even understand he is helping us while that help is "in progress". I think when we do get to the "sweet by and by" - we will at last be able to understand things a whole lot better.[/QUOTE] If I did look into someones heart I suspect that I'd find blood. I used to have one of those foot step pictures too. So what progress was being made for the little Rwandan girl as she had both legs and an arm hacked off after watching her family hacked to death? Perhaps she was evil like the children of the Amalekites your loving god ordered Saul to hack to death? What if the girl was yours? Would you face the question then? Hey, God, what the fuck gives? I'll tell you what I'd do. I kick him in his useless balls and go hack his boy to bits! It's a good thing for old Ya that he doesn't exist because then we'd have to kill him. Posted by: michelle Dec 11 2003, 08:37 PM Dennis, you said that if it was "truly" real "Christianity" that caused me to try to kill myself- then you should also renounce it, but that obviously at this point you dont see things that way... Well I was in no way suggesting that you renounce Christianity because it has made others suffer, live for your self dude! I guess the real reason I shared that stuff with you was just to say "be careful". Let me cut to the chase here, all Im saying is people have been known to practice Christianity for years & years, some 5 years, some 30 years. Then they wake up one day, or they study their way thru it and they come to find out that they were mistaken. Now theyve been doing what they think is Gods will for years and making serious decisions. Then they might have regrets to deal with & some have felt that time is gone and they cant get it back. As for me, I know that I lived a Christian life, it was my life. Its just that I had no real will of my own, maybe you do, I dont know. All Im saying is be careful, because never ever once did anyone tell me to be watch out. Basically I see Christianity as a marter life style, its just not mentally healthy. Thanks for saying that you cared and I wish you all the best. I hope you can get the things you deserve in life, amidst it all. Posted by: SOIL Dec 12 2003, 07:37 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 11 2003, 06:22 PM) ... So what progress was being made for the little Rwandan girl as she had both legs and an arm hacked off after watching her family hacked to death? Perhaps she was evil like the children of the Amalekites your loving god ordered Saul to hack to death? What if the girl was yours? Would you face the question then? Hey, God, what the fuck gives? I'll tell you what I'd do. I kick him in his useless balls and go hack his boy to bits! It's a good thing for old Ya that he doesn't exist because then we'd have to kill him. ... Hi Chef, According to my Christian belief, I guess you could say that I didn't "... go hack his boy to bits!" - rather, I nailed His boy to a cross. Dennis Posted by: likeafish Dec 12 2003, 03:33 PM Huh? I suppose that cleared things up for you Chef, eh? Jeeeezzz Looweezzz!!!! Posted by: chefranden Dec 12 2003, 04:08 PM QUOTE (SOIL @ Dec 12 2003, 07:37 AM) QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 11 2003, 06:22 PM) ... So what progress was being made for the little Rwandan girl as she had both legs and an arm hacked off after watching her family hacked to death? Perhaps she was evil like the children of the Amalekites your loving god ordered Saul to hack to death? What if the girl was yours? Would you face the question then? Hey, God, what the fuck gives? I'll tell you what I'd do. I kick him in his useless balls and go hack his boy to bits! It's a good thing for old Ya that he doesn't exist because then we'd have to kill him. ... Hi Chef, According to my Christian belief, I guess you could say that I didn't "... go hack his boy to bits!" - rather, I nailed His boy to a cross. Dennis Soil, Actually hacking is better, maybe he'd stay dead that way, 'specially if you feed some parts to the crows. My Lutheran grandmother was buried with her gall stones. She was sure she would need all her parts come resurrection day. Now all you gotta do is kick Yahweh in his useless balls and you will be free. Seriously though, you didn't nail /and Son/ to anything. If Joshua was nailed, some Roman guy did it. I'm sure that you are formulating an answer to the real questions I posed here, and that you are not trying to slip away again. I anxiously await your answers. Posted by: Loren Dec 13 2003, 12:20 PM To SOIL: You and I haven't had an exchange yet, but I've read a fair number of your posts and perhaps I can help to clear up some confusion you seem to have. I may be wrong, but the general gist of what you seem to be searching for (at least overtly) is an understanding of why some former Christians don't seem to need whatever it is that the Bible gives which makes one a better person, as well as wanting to understand why such people would not take folks like you seriously as having access to something which will better them spiritually. As I said, that's just my take and could well be wrong. Also you may be wanting other things here as well. Well here is one possible answer. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I wouldn't be surprised if some others agreed with me. You make a lot of claims and innuendos that you have something which gives you some kind of spiritual edge over the rest of us. Yet you steal. You are a thief. You have claimed a couple of times that you come to this site when you should be working. Stealing is wrong. Why do I, a person who is completely outside the gifts of the Holy Spirit, need to tell you, a Christian, this? If you want to understand why those outside of God's gifts and grace are so blind and foolish as to not give your religion the moral credit you think it deserves, it's (partly) because although you've spent as many years as a Christian as you have, and studied the Bible as much as you say you do, that it still has not given you the moral stature or wisdom to know that stealing is wrong. When you took that job, you entered into an agreement with your employer. He gives you money, you give him a service. It is wrong to not honor a good faith agreement. If there is some reason you cannot make good on your end of the agreement, you should inform your employer of this and get out of the position. Or get back to work. Either would be the honorable way. Are you telling us that as bright as you obviously are, you can't come up with an alternative to misappropriation of equipment for internet access? Is there no library where you live? Heck, I could probably find a church that would be willing to let me use their computer if I told them it was to go to this site as a way of bettering my understanding of others and my Christian walk. So what I see when I look at you is Claims or innuendoes that you really have something spiritually true and productive of real results unavailable to the rest of us. Two (at least) thousand years of intensive theological background which is still unable to produce a believer who acts like they know that stealing is wrong. Or, if they do know it's wrong, then they certainly don't care. From my perspective, I see a person who, in spite of the infinite power of Jesus, does not understand the spiritual importance of really knowing ourselves, even if it takes painful work. This isn't a particularly horrible or even an odd thing. It's a very average approach to morality. But when claims are made for some exclusive and special contact with God Almighty's own holy and perfect morality accompanied by such clear and obvious lack of integrity I can only scoff at the claims to special contact with God. SOIL, you seem like a nice and respectful person, and I appreciate your politeness. But it seems clear from your actions that you have not examined yourself as though you really believed that it was worth bothering with. I can only see this as a lack of belief that Jesus is actually present with you when you do this stealing; a lack of belief that sinning is always wrong; a lack of belief that all sins are absolute in their badness; a lack of belief that if Jesus valued you enough to die for you, that you might be worth the effort of some internal work, and so on. I certainly don't think you're a bad person, and I feel like you believe that you believe, but you are not showing me the same spiritual depth of understanding which I commonly see in most non Christians, let alone one which would make me wonder what good thing you have that I don't. I cannot for the life of me see any special contact with God in you that the rest of us don't have. You wanted understanding? Well I hope this helps you understand how I see and what I see. That's what I see. Loren Posted by: SOIL Dec 13 2003, 12:41 PM QUOTE (Loren @ Dec 13 2003, 12:20 PM) ... SOIL, you seem like a nice and respectful person, and I appreciate your politeness. But it seems clear from your actions that you have not examined yourself as though you really believed that it was worth bothering with. I can only see this as a lack of belief that Jesus is actually present with you when you do this stealing; a lack of belief that sinning is always wrong; a lack of belief that all sins are absolute in their badness; a lack of belief that if Jesus valued you enough to die for you, that you might be worth the effort of some internal work, and so on. I certainly don't think you're a bad person, and I feel like you believe that you believe, but you are not showing me the same spiritual depth of understanding which I commonly see in most non Christians, let alone one which would make me wonder what good thing you have that I don't. I cannot for the life of me see any special contact with God in you that the rest of us don't have. You wanted understanding? Well I hope this helps you understand how I see and what I see. That's what I see. Loren Hi Loren, I agree with what you have said. In fact, I think I already agreed even before you said it: note the date/time stamp on the following excerpt from a post I made a couple of hours ago in the thread http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1695 QUOTE (SOIL @ Dec 13 2003, 09:34 AM) I'm not sure where is the best place for me to put this post. But since I (and Steve) have mentioned my job here - I will put it here. I am not acting like a good Christian by stealing time from my employer. So - you will be seeing fewer posts from me. I will still look here some I am sure. And now - since Dave has yanked the copulating couples photos from the discussion pages - maybe I will even read what you say from home some. ... The basic thrust of what you said Loren didn't really bother me all that much - because I had already judged myself guilty on that "stealing from my employer" count. However - this thing that you said does bother me some: QUOTE You make a lot of claims and innuendos that you have something which gives you some kind of spiritual edge over the rest of us. I apologize if I have given you the impression that I have something that gives me a spiritual edge over the rest of the folks here. I do try to have faith - (as I have mentioned before) - but I believe that I can't even come up with that unless I simply accept it as a gift from God. I have also mentioned that I think you can do the same thing - as I believe God offers that gift to any who will accept it. So if in fact I do have some "spiritual edge" - then you can have it too if you want it. As for the fact that I am a sinner and a hypocrite - I think I have already said both of those terms apply to me. I'm not upset with you Loren, in fact I appreciate what you have posted - your post will probably help me to stay doing my work during regular work hours. Dennis Posted by: likeafish Dec 13 2003, 12:56 PM Yes Loren, Do please note the date and time at which another ex-Xtian pointed out to him the many flaws in his weak arguments for his faith and how he wagged his risky "end justifies the means" behavior in front of us to convince us of his sincerity. Good on you Loren for calling bullshit on him! Your assessment was spot on, as my Aussie friends used to say. Dennis. . . and yet you respond not with repentance, but with excuses and denials and obfuscation. You're not listening, either to us, or to your own conscience. Steve Posted by: SOIL Dec 13 2003, 01:15 PM QUOTE (likeafish @ Dec 13 2003, 12:56 PM) ... Do please note the date and time at which another ex-Xtian pointed out to him the many flaws in his weak arguments for his faith and how he wagged his risky "end justifies the means" behavior in front of us to convince us of his sincerity. ... OK Steve - you have my attention, You can see my faults better than I. Please elaborate on where I said the "the end justifies the means". I'm listening. Dennis Posted by: likeafish Dec 15 2003, 05:04 AM Dennis, It's not what you said, it is the way you behave--stealing time from your employer because of this righteuos mission you are on to "learn" and to bring us back to Jesus. You seem to be able to justify these behaviors, and even seek our sympathy for them as a way of getting us to like you or admire how much you are "risking" for our sakes. Oh the sacrifice! I think you should look up the word sychophant. The way you return after being chastised with a "Howdy" and "Hi there!" is just one indication that you have absolutely no clue how annoying your underhanded evangelism is becoming. Maybe others didn't spot it right off, distracted by your "manners" but I heard the voice of a disingenuous evangelical right off the bat. It took you this long to speak directly to me. Is there a reason for that? Why won't you answer Chef's direct questions? What's with these odd stories from the home front? Why do you keep talking about pornography? I just don't get the sense that you are being real with us or with yourself. But that I account in large part to your religion, which doesn't allow for it in my book. Like I said, you will NEVER understand that until you step aside and look at it from the possibiblity that it is all a pack of myth, historical tradition, and beyond that, lies. Then you might be able to understand some of the things we are trying to say to you and to each other. Unfortunately, from what I can detect, unlike a few other visiting Xtians here, you do not seem to be able to balance things and ideas very well or have a very good sense of empathy. "Jesus is my all in all" gets us nowhere. I'm not quoting you, I'm telling you my perceptions. If you'd like to attempt to correct me, go right ahead. But I think I have understood you pretty well thus far. Steve Posted by: Redshift Dec 15 2003, 07:15 AM Dennis You have been thinking out loud on this site for quite some time now and, you know, I have made some real effort to try to understand the points you were trying to make in your longwinded posts - with very little success. That's why I haven't really made much of an effort to respond to you. But the following bit caught my eye. QUOTE ...unless I simply accept it as a gift from God. I have also mentioned that I think you can do the same thing - as I believe God offers that gift to any who will accept it. This is characteristic of your willfully ignorant approach. Steve thinks that you are being underhanded, but I don't agree. I think you're just being plain stupid. I'm not referring to your intelligence, Dennis, so please don't take offense. I think you're being stupid on purpose and I think it has much to do with the extent to which you have brainwashed yourself. I remember being that stupid myself. I don't grasp how, after all that you've read on here, you still act as though most of the people you're talking to believe that the God of the Bible exists. You seem to think that we're simply rejecting His "Truth" becuase we don't understand it or find it distateful. You talk to us as though, deep down, we actually believe the Bible to be the word of God and that we are just choosing to rebel against it. You pretend to listen to what we have to say with an "I understand what you're saying" here and an "I'm going to have to go think about that" there. Then you come back with these trite from-the-Christian-perspective replies. You ramble on endlessly about the finer points of morality as seen through the distorting lense of your Christian doctrine: Truth, God's plan, God's gift, His sacrifice, our sin, His love, more sin - on and on... Why would any of us care that you interpret sex as some weird symbolic ritual representative of God's love? Surely it must be crystal clear to you by now that most of us don't think that your God exists? I don't think that you fully understand what it means not to believe. The primitive tribal origins of the Bible are obvious to those who bother to take an objective look at it's history. And the lengths to which it's proponents go in order to obsfuscate and justify it's obvious blatant absurdities! For example, the preposterous acceptance of the Biblical account of Creation over the overwhelming natural evidence that says otherwise, is downright ludicrous. And all to preserve the doctrine of Original Sin? No thanks. If there is a god, I believe he intended for me to use my brain. Dennis, lack of faith in the Christian religion is NOT the rejection of God or his supposed Sacrifice. It is the certainty that there never was any Yahweh to begin with. No amount of beautiful, inspiring symbolism, Biblical or otherwise can erase the contradictions, atrocities and absurdities that most of us exians find in God's so-called "Word". Even if I agreed with every single thing you've been saying it still wouldn't bring me any closer to accepting the religion that you use as a justification for your opinions. The most I would be able to offer you would be a sigh of "if only it were true". As it happens, though, I'm beside myself with relief that it's not. Joe Posted by: SOIL Dec 15 2003, 10:57 AM There have been several posts directed towards me. I have only 1/2 hour left on my lunch hour. It normally takes close to an hour for me to make a singe response (and even then - you folks think I am being stupid or not willing to address the issues, etc...). Just to shed a little illumination about "my job". I don't use the internet server of my employers. I work out of a house that I am buying, which is just up the dirt road from the house where I live - in a very rural area - where I use a dial-up modem and pay for an independent ISP. The company I work for is very good as far as how I allocate my time. (I am the principle author of a mainframe software package for which they have already received several million dollars - both by selling it and also through collecting yearly maintenance amounts - I do almost all of the maintenance work - and sometime there is not much to be done - because it works pretty stable now). However - at this time anyway - they are paying me a salary - not just a retainer; so I still believe that I should be doing stuff directly for them for at least 40 hours per week. I don't know if I really "needed" to tell you all of that - but since you folks have made it a big issue (mainly mostly by posts in other threads - I forget where now) - I just thought I would give you a little more insight into one of the many areas which you have been using to show me the depths of my sinfulness. Now - I would like to say something to Chef - concerning a portion of a post he made in another thread. ...... QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 13 2003, 04:27 PM) ... Your hands are sticky with blood but it isn't the blood of Joshua. It is the blood of the inquisition, of the holocaust, of the killing fields, of slaves, of the Amalekite infants, of Native Americans, of the Waldensians, of the Irish, of Rwanda... Feel it? Your God hasn't even made the pathetic attempt to make it all better that he made for Job. What does the world get? Three days of death from an eternal being? What answer from or of God for this? Only this: he is a slimy bastard or non-existent. Hi Chef, I suppose there is a lot of blood on the hands of christians, muslims, animists, atheists, agnostics - and hey - I reckon basically all world-view types. I have heard that there were many millions of people put to death by such non-Christian folks as Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Sadaam, etc.... The way I look at my own personal sins is to consider Jesus as the one who has vicariously washed my hands. One of my daughters read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah to me as I was driving to our church yesterday evening (she is the one who brought up the chapter, since it is getting close to Christmas). As she was reading, I thought about the blood on my hands : (bold emphasis mine) QUOTE Isaiah 53:1-12 (ESV) Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? [2] For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? [9] And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. [11] Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. I wish I could say at the times when I have felt judged in an unjust way - that I opened not my mouth - but obviously I can't say that. (Sorry I am just about out of lunch hour time now - maybe I will respond to Steve and others late tonight) Dennis Posted by: likeafish Dec 15 2003, 02:51 PM Don't bother Posted by: Loren Dec 15 2003, 03:25 PM QUOTE (SOIL @ Dec 15 2003, 10:57 AM) Now - I would like to say something to Chef - concerning a portion of a post he made in another thread. ...... QUOTE (chefranden @ Dec 13 2003, 04:27 PM) ... Your hands are sticky with blood but it isn't the blood of Joshua. It is the blood of the inquisition, of the holocaust, of the killing fields, of slaves, of the Amalekite infants, of Native Americans, of the Waldensians, of the Irish, of Rwanda... Feel it? Your God hasn't even made the pathetic attempt to make it all better that he made for Job. What does the world get? Three days of death from an eternal being? What answer from or of God for this? Only this: he is a slimy bastard or non-existent. Hi Chef, I suppose there is a lot of blood on the hands of christians, muslims, animists, atheists, agnostics - and hey - I reckon basically all world-view types. I have heard that there were many millions of people put to death by such non-Christian folks as Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, Sadaam, etc.... The way I look at my own personal sins is to consider Jesus as the one who has vicariously washed my hands. One of my daughters read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah to me as I was driving to our church yesterday evening (she is the one who brought up the chapter, since it is getting close to Christmas). As she was reading, I thought about the blood on my hands : (bold emphasis mine) QUOTE Isaiah 53:1-12 (ESV) Who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? [2] For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. [3] He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. [4] Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. [8] By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? [9] And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. [10] Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. [11] Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. [12] Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. I wish I could say at the times when I have felt judged in an unjust way - that I opened not my mouth - but obviously I can't say that. (Sorry I am just about out of lunch hour time now - maybe I will respond to Steve and others late tonight) Dennis Dennis, in your reply to chef, you are saying that since all those other religions/nations/etc. did all those bloody things, that Christianity is no better than them. Did you realize this when you wrote it? Or were you trying to excuse it because "everybody else is doing it, too"? What does this say about your religion? I know that wasn't what you were overtly trying to say, but I also see that it fits a consistant pattern which competely matches what's been said to you before about your patterns. Steve mentioned patterns as opposed to surfaces. I would advise you to pay closer attention to what Steve said. If you can tell me the difference between a statement and the underlying principle which supports it, then you are perfectly able to take a good enough look at yourself to keep effectively getting better. You seem to be reacting to us on the superficial level of words as though you are completely unaware that there are patterns underneath which others can see quite well. A cross section of the pattern here would be that you were able to just casually toss off a statement which is in direct opposition to the moral principle of taking responsibility for one's own actions, regardless of what others do. This moral principle applies to nations and religions, as well as to individuals. Even if you just misworded yourself, still, how is it that you could produce a statement which is fundamentally opposed to basic morality without having a lot of red flags go up when you realize what you've said? Before you claim tiredness or being in a hurry, remember, several people have been talking to you about patterns. If this were atypical, then one of those excuses could well be true. Heck, I've done those very things myself, of course. But I keep an eye on whether those times are typical or atypical. I look at my own patterns. That's one of the spiritual tools I use to better myself. If you are genuinely sincere and couragous enough about the reasons you say you're here, and really do want to see just what the hell patterns these rude idiots are talking about, then do this: Take all of your posts here and copy them to a text document. Go through the document and find every time you use an excuse. Delete the excuses and write in their place, "Because the dog ate my homework." So statements like, "I really didn't mean to say it that way, but I was tired and in a hurry," become, "I really didn't mean to say it that way, but the dog ate my homework." After you've rewritten every excuse to say, "because the dog ate my homework", save it without reading it. Go to bed and get some rest. The next day, after you've asked Jesus to reveal the truth to you, and asked Him for honesty and courage, sit down alone and read what you wrote. See if you don't start to see some patterns. Once again, I have to say that if you really had any supernatural access to spiritual understanding of morality, then I would expect a totally different set of responses from you. This is not about specific statements or whether superficial verbal structures are legally correct or not. This is all about your whole religion and god being clearly unable to produce in you, Dennis, any quality which would give them any moral or supernatural credibility. On a different note, Isaiah does not refer to Jesus. It refers to Israel as a group of people. It is extremely clear in the text that this is so. It would be more clear to more Christians if there had not been so much editing and blatant forgery on the part of the early Christians. Also, it would be more clear to more Christians if the morally derelict Christian clergy were not so willing to take scripture out of context and quote as selectively as they do. Yet again, I have to say that if Christianity as a whole had an ounce of actual moral integrity, then this sorry state would never have come to pass. Institutionalized ignorance is a direct sign of a lack of real connection with any real God. I submit the following excerpt from my files. If you are truly interested in really knowing your own Bible, and not just pretending that your religion is important to you, I would be more than happy to send you further material. I have a lot of things like this on file, and even more resources which I would be very happy to point you toward. Loren 1)Christians/Hebrew-Christians claim that Isaiah 53 is not read in the Synagogue cycle of readings on the Sabbath. They say parts of Isaiah 51 and some of Isaiah52 are read then the reading abruptly comes to an end. THEY REFER this as "the missing chapter." Some claim that the ancient Rabbis (as they call them)removed this chapter from regular synagogue readings.Christians say that it was done to keep Jews from seeing the obvious picture the chapter paints of Jesus. 2)THEY also claim that Isaiah 53 can't refer to Israel because- The Chapter speaks of the ONE who would die for the sins of the world having no sin of His own. THEY CLAIM-This couldn't mean Israel because Israel was a "sinful" nation (like all other nations). ___________________________________________________ Answer to #1 The Haftorahs were chosen according to their relevance to the Torah portion of the week. Chapter 53 of Isaiah did not bare relevance to the Torah portion of the week. It was not censored and can be found in every Jewish Bible, and this chapter, along with all the books of the Jewish Bible are studied by Jews everywhere throughout the world. ANSWER TO #2 I'd like to preface these words by encouraging you to look at the original text of Isaiah, which is written in Hebrew. Once you gain proficiency in Hebrew and become able to read scripture using your own creative powers, you will see many discrepancies between the original Hebrew and the Christian translation. In context, it is clear that the Isaiah 53 is talking about Israel. Here is part of chapter 53 translated from the original Hebrew without the mistakes: (1) Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of the Almighty been revealed! (2) Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground; he had neither form nor grandeur; we saw him, but without such visage that we could desire him. (3) He was despised and isolated from men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness. As one from whom we would hide our faces; he was despised, and we had no regard for him. COMMENTARY: Following in the footsteps of the previous chapter (52) these verses continue to describe the amazement of the world when they see the Jewish people redeemed. In particular, these verses written in an exclamatory fashion describe how the nations "despised" the Jewish people and gave "no regard" for them. The reason it is written in the singular is because the Jews are regarded as one body, called "Israel." There are many instances of the Jewish people being referred to with a singular pronoun throughout the Torah. (4) But in truth, it was our ills that he bore and our pains that he carried - but we had regarded him diseased, stricken by G-d, and afflicted! (5) He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquity; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit and through his wounds, we were healed. (6) We have all strayed like sheep, each of us turning his own way, and the Almighty inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all. COMMENTARY: These verses explain how nations punished Israel for their own reasons, but not "for the Jews own good," as they had claimed. The verses continue in this manner until the end of the chapter. (7) He was persecuted and afflicted, but he did not open his mouth; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or an ewe that is silent before her shearers, he did not open his mouth. (8) Now that he has been released from captivity and judgement, who could have imagined such a generation? For he had been removed from the land of the living, an affliction upon him that was my people's sin. COMMENTARY: Verse seven prophesizes regarding the many hardships they would endure in their exile. A look at history will prove that these prophecies have already become true. In the 11th century CE Jews Were "persecuted and afflicted" by crusaders who brutally tortured and killed Jews in the name of their lord Jesus. In this century the Nazis "led" the Jews "to the slaughter" like an "ewe that is silent before her shearers." Having been "exiled" from the "Land of the Living" (the Land of Israel) it appeared to the world that the Jews would die out all together. (See newspaper articles from the 1950s.) Verse eight again tells of the surprise of all the nations of the world when they see that the Jews will be gathered back to the homeland. "How is it possible that the nation we tortured has returned home?" they will ask. (9) He submitted himself to his grave like wicked men; and the wealthy submitted to his executions, for committing no crime and with no deceit in his mouth. COMMENTARY: There are countless stories throughout history, of Jews who were given the alternative to accept Jesus or die by the edge of a sword. Instead of profaning themselves with conversion they "submitted Themselves to the grave" and died the death of a common criminal. Also "wealthy" Jews were "submitted to his executions for committing no crime," only so that they could robbed of their riches. (10) The Almighty desired to oppress him and He afflicted him; if his soul would acknowledge guilt, he would see offspring and live long days and desire of the Almighty would succeed in his hand. COMMENTARY: "The Almighty desired to oppress him (Israel)" because they deserved to be punished for their sins. If the Jews would only "acknowledge" their "guilt" they would be able to see their "offspring and live long days." (11) He would see the purpose and be satisfied with his souls distress.With his knowledge My servant will teach G-d's righteousness to the multitudes; it is their iniquities that he will carry. (12) Therefore,I will assign him a portion from the multitudes and he will divide the mighty as spoils - in return for having poured out his soul for death and being counted among the wicked, for he bore the sin of the multitudes, and prayed for the wicked. COMMENTARY: Verse eleven is still talking about Israel, and how they will teach all the nations about G-d. Verse twelve talks of how the Jews pray for the welfare of the nations they are exiled into. Some people have thought, regarding the above passage, that the "suffering servant" can't be Israel since that Israel has sins. But why can't the "suffering servant" have sins? G-d gave the world a very special gift: Repentance. Repentance is the power to return to the proper path of which one strayed. In Judaism there is no such thing as a sinless person. Even Moses didn't leave this earth 100% free from sin! But he was still considered a righteous person. That is because "righteousness" not only takes into account how many righteous acts a person has done, but it also includes an accounting of the ability to do Repentance after accidental sins. Repentance is not only available for Jews, but gentiles too. ** So there you have it in the original Hebrew, properly translated. ** Many of the earliest church fathers knew they were mistranslating the Bible, but did so anyway. Here is an incomplete list of their names and what they wrote: St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote, "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend,the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated." Dr. Herbert Marsh, 19th century English Bishop, wrote, "It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations made by Origen..." Lucius Coelius Firmianes Lactantius, 3rd century Church Father, wrote, "Among those who seek power and gain from their religion, there will never be wanting an inclination to forge and lie for it." (From www.drazin.com). With blessings from Jerusalem, Shraga Simmons The Aish Rabbi Posted by: SOIL Dec 15 2003, 05:42 PM Hi guys, I say with a chuckle - I guess I don't need a judgmental God to tell me about my many sins so much anymore - since I could always just come back here to receive my daily supply of more guilt! I'm just kidding about needing the guilt that one concept of God can produce. I much prefer the Romans 8:1 verse that says: QUOTE Romans 8:1 (ESV) There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. ....... Loren, I think I brought up Stalin and Mao Tse-tung - just to say that it is not only so called 'christians' who cause a lot of killing - actually I guess I could have also mentioned others li |