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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Sex and Christianity > Sexuality In The Christian Male Posted by: michelle Dec 7 2003, 05:14 PM This is a question for male ex-christians. How did Christianity effect your sexuality? Posted by: Doug2 Dec 7 2003, 05:31 PM As an ex-christian I still have to remind myself that sex is not evil and shameful. When I was a christian I would avoid all physical contact with women since I thought it might be sin. I would constantly battle with desires for sex and then feel guilty for it. I would masterbate then feel guilty about it. I even tried masterbating without thinking about anything sexual. I had an evangelist convince me that masterbation was wrong so I would stop, a year and a half was the longest I went. During those times I would wake up with nocturnal emissions and be embarrassed/ashamed by that. I lost a lot of good years of my life in this shame spiral. I couldn't even enjoy art because those nasty galleries had pictures of humans without clothes! Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 7 2003, 06:21 PM As a gay male, it both fucked me up and protected me. I spent numerous hours praying to be healed and made straight. I had the double "burden" of believing that not only was it wrong for me to be thinking about sex, but the kind of sex I was thinking about was an abomination (whatever that meant - it sounded really bad.) However, thanks to my demonination's strong emphasis on abstinence, I could pretend that the reason I wasn't heavy into dating and other naughtier things was because I was saving myself for the right girl. I knew enough instinctively not to reveal my true feelings to my family and friends - I'm sure I would have been sent off to a christian therapist or Exodus International to be "cured". In the end, it saved me. My homosexuality finally made me take an objective look at the bible. First it was to gain a true understanding of what the bible says about homosexuals (was I going to hell or not?). While I was looking closely at the bible, the contradictions and doctrinal problems came into focus and I slowly began my deconversion process. Posted by: I Broke Free Dec 7 2003, 07:08 PM QUOTE (Doug2 @ Dec 7 2003, 08:31 PM) a year and a half was the longest I went. Damn! You deserve a medal of some kind! The longest I could ever go was 10 days! I would also have to agree with TF. Being gay is what drove me to xtianity, but it was also what eventually made me start questioning everything as well. Posted by: Matthew Dec 7 2003, 10:00 PM I am so glad this was asked. When I was a Christian...I struggled with lust. I was addicted to it. I would masturbate and fantasize about a girl only to find myself asking for forgiveness. In high school I found myself fantasizing about girls until my senior year. I went one whole year without fantasizing or masturbating. Then in my freshman year of college and ever since then...I started masturbating and fantasizing and I have done it until this day. I constantly felt guilty about masturbating. I wrote in prayer journals asking forgiveness for fantasizing about Angela or Lilith or whichever girl I was lusting over. I would repeat the cycle...lust and then repent..lust and then repent. But some of the Christian sexuality books that I read were almost encouraging complete sexual repression. I read Every Man's Battle. This book even implied that masturbating and fantasizing were sinful. After all..fantasizing was adultery: you were commiting adultery in your heart against your future wife with a women who was not your future wife. Now..I don't feel any guilt at all! Matthew Posted by: lostandconfused Dec 7 2003, 10:58 PM ditto for me right there. i spent all my time feeling guilty for "lusting" and masturbating, even to the point of thinking god was telling me to cut my dick off cause it was causing me to sin, and feeling guilty cause i was too much of a wuss to go through with what god said in the bible to do... Posted by: Dhampir Dec 7 2003, 11:10 PM QUOTE ditto for me right there. i spent all my time feeling guilty for "lusting" and masturbating, even to the point of thinking god was telling me to cut my dick off cause it was causing me to sin, and feeling guilty cause i was too much of a wuss to go through with what god said in the bible to do... Bein' a wuss mighta' saved your life dude! That this Christ person would have told people to mutilate themselves for the sake of the kingdom...well imagine my horror when I realized that wasn't a parabolic statement. As for me and sex, I suffered with feelings of lust as well, for a time. As I got into the pull and tug of things, pun intended, I realized I wasn't as guilty as I felt I should be, which naturally doubled my guilt. But then I came on (pun not intended ) a beautiful rationale, one I think that helped me deconvert: Jesus knows my plight (with faith at that point) and if I am to get saved, he'll speak personally to my heart and save me when the time is right. Yeah, perfect for continuing in sin was that rationale, helped me get over quite a bit of guilt. Edit: got promoted again... I love climbing ladders Posted by: Bad_Friday Dec 20 2003, 07:17 PM yeah I was always struggling with masturbation and sexual cravings. it seemed that when I was a christian i repressed all my cravings, and my cravings became stronger the more i tried to repress them. i tried to stop masturbating,but i couldnt,as a result I always felt so guilty and worthless,like I could never stop from being an evil person "trapped" in "sin". but now that im free from the bondage of christian morality I dont supress my cravings,in consequence my desires are less intense. Posted by: bdpuffin Dec 20 2003, 10:00 PM Being a Xtian left me completely uncomprehending about sexuality and how its supposed to occur naturally in the real world - after all the whole Xtian paradigm is a fictional fantasy world. I've wasted time...truly didn't understand that it was right, proper, and good to follow after desire. Could have had a relationship with a woman who had been my dearest friend for six years, a Pagan woman, but I was so indoctrinated with the whole Xtian mindset of 'proving' 'honorable intentions' that when she and I were in a position where all she wanted was for me to act on my desire for her, I was holding back to 'prove' to her that I saw her as somehow above such 'base instinct,' in my mind proving that I could be 'trusted' was necessary and was soemhow supposed to prove to her how deeply I felt for her, and I was sincerely surprised when she couldn't see it that way. Even now I see how complex the lexicon of sensual expression is and I have no fluency in it - nearly 41 years old and I have no clue about any of it. I half think I'll just stay single (& chaste, which I have been all my life) rather than risk going out on that limb again - this failure hurt deeply because it all turned out to be so much the opposite of what I thought it was, and I would be at such a disadvantage with any woman comarable to my age. Depressing... bdp Posted by: Matthew Dec 20 2003, 10:09 PM QUOTE Being a Xtian left me completely uncomprehending about sexuality and how its supposed to occur naturally in the real world - after all the whole Xtian paradigm is a fictional fantasy world. I've wasted time...truly didn't understand that it was right, proper, and good to follow after desire. Could have had a relationship with a woman who had been my dearest friend for six years, a Pagan woman, but I was so indoctrinated with the whole Xtian mindset of 'proving' 'honorable intentions' that when she and I were in a position where all she wanted was for me to act on my desire for her, I was holding back to 'prove' to her that I saw her as somehow above such 'base instinct,' in my mind proving that I could be 'trusted' was necessary and was soemhow supposed to prove to her how deeply I felt for her, and I was sincerely surprised when she couldn't see it that way. That rings so close to home! I tried being gentlemanly and proper, thinking that to give into my desires would be seen as "carnal" and "heathenly". I wanted to show people that by being a Christian..I was an old-fashioned gentleman. I don't recall getting any opportunity for sex that I definitely know was serious but even if given the opportunity I would probably have stared "temptation" in the face and then thank God for stopping me from giving in and then go home and fantasize about what I could've done but wasn't permitted to do. This is hypothetically if I was ever confronted with the opportunity for sex. Nowadays..I am not sure how I would act. I might just give into it just because I have been a virgin so long. Just today while I was at work..I was definitely considering having pre-maritial sex just because my mother is so completely judgemental about sexuality (i.e. labelling Gwenyth Paltrow a slut..etc). I was considering not only doing that but possibly having children outside of wedlock and possibly not getting married. Funny how now I see the "carnal" side as actually being normal desire. Matthew Posted by: Lokmer Dec 20 2003, 10:50 PM This is a repost from an old thread, about my experience with sex as a Christian (now ex christian) male: I grew up in the evangelical church. My father is a theology professor who, in the course of his carreer, worked at CMA and Conservative Baptist schools (though he was too liberal for either), because of which we hopped denominations a few times (CMA, PB, EPC, non-denom evangelical), and I also attended a non-denom Christian elementary schoool. My mother is a missionary kid who grew up in the Amazon (Peru) with Wycliffe (SIL). Growing up in the house was a weird mix of conservative devotion and rationalistic secularism - my father (though I didn't realize it at the time) spent a goodly amount of time deprogramming me from the ultra-conservative indoctrination I received at the hands of my teachers, youth leaders, and various ministers who formed the bulk of our social circle because of his work. This is not to say, of course, that he did not or does not believe, but his belief is tempered by a measure of cynicism and reality (he has, as near as I can make out, a Neo-Orthodox bent, which is another way of saying "Theistic Christian minimalist agnostic"). The sexual messages I received growing up were remarkably mixed. On the one hand, my parents were (and are) deeply affectionate towards one another and were not shy about making out around the house, and did not freak out when one of us would occasionally stumble into their room while they were having sex, but rather politely asked us to give them a few minutes. They were open about their enjoyment of their sex life, and as we all got older and discovered dirty jokes my mother would occasionally bellow the orgasm song from Young Frankenstein when Dad got home from work or something equally light-hearted and silly. On the other hand, when I hit puberty both of my parents freaked out in very odd ways. My mother would no longer hug me and seemed to think there was something bad about me. My father became deeply insecure around me and began to occasionally seek validation (though I didn't recognize it as such at the time) for his own normalcy in adolecense regarding things like fantasies and masturbation et.al. Although they were both apparently well-adjusted sexual beings, my sexuality really scared them. They were open informationally on issues of anatomy and such, but became very concerned when I read historical novels with sex in them and (on one occasion) totally appoplectic when they discovered a draft of a book I was writing that contained a sex scene (I was not sexually active at the time). I got a LOT of abstinence talk - Dad particularly was very worried about potential promiscuity and was constantly asserting that sex was a drug that required increasing doses to get the high, and was only emotionally safe in a marraige relationship. Into that mix, throw the molestation of one of my little brothers by my (at the time) best friend, which nearly destroyed the family. Out of that came (after many years) the disclosure that both my parents had been raped (my mother on several occasions on the mission field, my father by his puritannical fundamentalist mother and a male cousin) and had their experiences covered up by their parents and church leaders, resulting for my father in a very obsessive attitude toward sex (hence the drug analogy) and my mother's terminal fear of any male but my father. But that I learned/worked out later. In the meantime, (I was 14 or 15 at the time I discovered the molest - I walked in on my bro and my "friend"), everything got severely fucked up. By osmosis, I had developed both a profound respect for women (most of the women I was exposed to growing up were academics or otherwise very interesting and strong people) and a tendency to divorce sex from any sort of context (I had gotten the distinct idea that it wasn't polite to the woman to be heavily involved with her before marriage, and that women don't like it until they have the guarrantee of secutiry anyway). This tendency really soured most of my relationships in high school. As the child of someone very well connected in the Christian church and academic community, I was privy to some very grotesque goings-on (rapes, adulturies, the occasional contract murder), things which (when you learn about them at the tender age of 10) tend to affect you in ways you don't expect. My Dad was one of the few men I knew who were trying to bring perps in this vein to some sort of justice, and the stories he can tell are truly horrifying. Although these facts did not impact my faith in any way (I just figured that people were people, and there would always be truly evil things wherever there were people), it did engender a fear of sex (particularly, of what I as a male might accidentally do to a woman) that played into a lot of what followed. I should add that (to my parents' great but fairly well-concealed horror) I was quite sexually precocious. I still remember at the age of four making out with my "girlfriend" quite vigorously under the back seat of my parents' van during a fireworks show. I have been aware of women in a sexual sense since at least that time, and have always enjoyed their mere presence. (My parents, of course, did everything they could to discourage my precocity, but that didn't stop me from having a lot of crushes and writing a lot of love letters between the time I was 5 and 10). By the time I was 12 I was reading the sex advice columns in Focus on the Family's "Breakaway" and Christianity Today's "Campus Life" as pornography. I had quite the vivid fantasy life and acquired a distinctive taste for dirty sex. Adding these various factors together - the shame and excitement, the holy/profane paradox, the perception of women as sexually breakable while otherwise very strong, the constant presence of platonic female friends who were VERY horny people while being appreciated for being sexually distant - at 15 I was a mess. Between 15 and 17 I had a series of very intense relationships that were, on the whole, disasters. My first two girlfriends were both very very sexual women who found my frigidity (I didn't want to break them!) unbearably frustrating. After my breakup with the second girl, I briefly got back together with the first girlfriend and had a very intense 2-week sexual realationship (making up, as it were, for the intimacy we both still needed from our time as closely bonded emotional siamese twins a year before) which I cut off very abruptly out of guilt for using her when I wasn't sure I loved her anymore (a guilt which paralysed me around women for several years). I then dated the woman to whom I was probably the cruelest - she was 15 and very curious, I was 16 and "knew better" than to play with fire. I refused to even kiss her. She had been my friend and confidant for years, and I loved her quite a lot. She left me after a month - and in retrospect I don't blame her. I owed her a lot better than I gave her (beautiful words without soft touches are pretty worthless in a relationship). In frustration and shame, I declared that I would not date until I got my shit together, and stayed very distant from women for 2 years, working and going to college pretty much ate up my life. In the midst of all that, I worked a summer at a Christian camp and had the misfortune to witness the sexual assault of my dearest friend at the camp (whom I was in love with but too timid to tell) by my rommate. At the time (a darkened movie room) I wasn't sure if what I had seen was consensual, so I asked her about it the next morning, and the two of us wound up in the director's office filing a report. At the advice of their lawyer (the DA for the county!!!) they covered it up and threatened the witnesses. I quit my job in disgust - I never found out what happened to her (though she was a prodigiously strong lady, and I'm fairly confident that she turned out alright). During my self-enforced time of celibacy I read a lot of Robert A. Heinlein, one of the authors who was instrumental in changing my sexual consciousness. It was through his work that I first glimpsed the possibility of treating a woman properly - not as a weird amalgum of the respectable human adult and the breakable sexual child, but as a creature whose strength and beauty arose out of the interplay of her sexuality and her character. At 18, in my 3rd year of college, I went away to a 4 year residential school near Portland, OR (run by Quakers, who are even more deeply fucked up than the Plymoth Bretheren). To my pleasant surprise, I found myself - overweight, unattractive, boorish, overly-intellectual me - inundated with women. In my first semester and a half there I had eight women seriously vying for my attention, and a number of other snuggle-buddies who were merely very intimate good friends. I didn't quite know what to do with myself, but I muddled along as best I could and enjoyed myself, still trying to keep my overly-sexed nature in check. I still did things I now regret, but I regret them because they were missed opportunities - I was still treading lightly, though not battling with my sexual nature anymore I was still overly cautious. At some point during the semester, my reputation as a masseur got round among my "harem" (I have my roommate to owe for that lovely epithet), and I had, to say the least, my hands full. At a conservative Christian school, where you signed a blood oath that you would not have unmarried sex, it was the most amazing bit of prolific sexual intimacy I had yet run into. Being a man who takes my word quite seriously, I could not have sex during the semester, but the oath said nothing about oiling down and relaxing a beautiful woman with hours-long massages. It was here that I was able to move from theory (being a prolific reader I had the academic lay of the female landscape, but precious little recent experience) and learn the art of touching another human being for their pleasure. It's still one of my favorite things to do with a woman, and I occasionally look back on that time and wish I could live it again. They were all - tall, short, fat, thin, statuesque, homely - deeply deeply beautiful people. I've lost touch with most of them, and in many cases I wish I had loved them better than I knew how at the time, but I'll never forget any of them. Sarah was the lady who finally helped me break free of my reticense and shame. She was 24 - 6 years my senior (though she didn't learn my age until after we were no longer together), and we met my first day at school, and sparks flew. Brash, literate, crude, outspoken, sexy as hell, with a wicked serrated wit, she had me by the short-and-curlies and the gray cells by the end of our first Lit class together. We did everything together for three months, but I was still very un-confident and was afraid to touch her lest I offend her, and she quite sensibly moved on to greener pastures thinking I just wanted her for a friend. When that happened, I finally understood what sex was for, and why it mattered. I resolved not to let another woman of her caliber slip away (though we are still friends and correspond occasionally, we are both quite happily married to other people). It was as if someone had finally ripped the blinkers off my eyes. The next lady I fell for - and I fell hard - was Kitty. Sarah actually worked on me for her when she saw us having dinner together one evening (they had known each other a couple years before). We were friends for about six months when I realized that when I looked at her I was seeing children and old age. She was everything I loved about people rolled up into a very small sexual fireball - one of those women who seem to be ordinary until you talk to them or see them walk, and then its hard to keep your temperature down. We wound up getting together in a serious way - 18 months later I married her. I was just barely 20. Because we are both stubborn, passionate, driven people it has been very difficult going much of the time, but I wouldn't trade her for the world. We've managed to struggle through 2 novels and a feature film together (jury's still out on the film, actually, you can see a trailer at http://www.blenderwars.com/kestralmannix/gallery.html), and she continues to be my best friend and an incredible lover. And one of the beautiful ironies of it is that we are also united by a profound love of women - both of us are figure artists (she a sketch artist, me a photographer). A lovely, unthreatened, woman who encourages me in my friendships and professional relationships with women, where most women I have ever known would grow insecure and jealous. It is actually because of her that I have gotten into photography like I have, and have had the courage to go in the religious (or anti-religious) directions I have - where another Christian woman might freak out, she has not only supported me in my recent deconversion but has been there doing the research right alongside me (and joined me a couple weeks later). So, in a long, complicated, irritating draught, there you have my story of the wreck that Christianity made of me sexually - and the pain, rejection, and ruin that I introduced into the lives of women I loved because of it. Christianity, at least as it is practiced in the states, makes men into sexual predators, first by making them frightened of their own sexuality and then by teaching them to regard women as either inaccessable people or as sex objects only - and to regard women of high intellegence and character as inaccessable and bimbos as sex objects. Even in the more enlightened circles such as those that I usually traveled in outside of church (my father's academic community), there is a divorce of the sexuality from the person in the same way that you find extreme feminist philosophy divorcing the modern empowered woman from her sexuality. But I now believe that Heinlein was right - tits and ass do not make a woman, they make a masturbation toy. Intellegence and power do not make a woman, they make a person. A woman is the amalgum of her intellegence, her maturity, and her sexuality - all flowing one into another to create a human of surpassing beauty. The love of a good woman - or in my case, several good and patient women in succession - have taught me this. To them I am eternally grateful. -Lokmer BTW - for those who are interested, you can see a (very) small sample of my photography at http://www.onemodelplace.com/member.cfm/ID/59630 The photos at the bottom of the page credited to J. Daniel Sawyer and ArtisticWhispers productions are both mine. Posted by: Matthew Dec 21 2003, 12:09 AM Lokmer..I really enjoyed reading your post on the subject. I recall that I have always had a fascination for sex. Since I have learned about sex in the 4th grade..I have had a fascination for it ever since although I always acted like a Puritan when I was a Christian growing up..I was actually quite horny at times. There were some things I wanted to ask you about in hopes I can have some things clarified for me: QUOTE Adding these various factors together - the shame and excitement, the holy/profane paradox, the perception of women as sexually breakable while otherwise very strong, the constant presence of platonic female friends who were VERY horny people while being appreciated for being sexually distant - at 15 I was a mess What age were these plantonic female friends who were very horny? Were these fellow teenagers? Where were these females at? Church? School? QUOTE To my pleasant surprise, I found myself - overweight, unattractive, boorish, overly-intellectual me - inundated with women. In my first semester and a half there I had eight women seriously vying for my attention, and a number of other snuggle-buddies who were merely very intimate good friends. I didn't quite know what to do with myself, but I muddled along as best I could and enjoyed myself, still trying to keep my overly-sexed nature in check. I still did things I now regret, but I regret them because they were missed opportunities - I was still treading lightly, though not battling with my sexual nature anymore I was still overly cautious Damn..I wish that had happened to me. I was never really overweight. In fact..I remember in high school being told that if I was any skinnier I would blow away like a kite. In college I was always slender as well. It wasn't until I graduated and entered the working sector that I gained some pounds. Nothing really obese..just a bit of a gut that I know I need to work off. QUOTE Being a man who takes my word quite seriously, I could not have sex during the semester, but the oath said nothing about oiling down and relaxing a beautiful woman with hours-long massages. Did these girls want sex?!? Oh my! Sometimes I wish I had gone to a Christian college! I have a lot of catching up to do! Matthew Posted by: Lokmer Dec 21 2003, 02:33 AM No problem, here goes... QUOTE What age were these plantonic female friends who were very horny? Were these fellow teenagers? Where were these females at? Church? School? Platonic horny female friend phase (what a label ) started in 4th or 5th grade, and got progressively more interesting through high school. Knew most of them through church, a few of them through school. And there was the occassional twenty-thirtysomething grad student that hung around, but in those cases it was a matter of using my ability to grade papers being the passkey to spending time with an older woman who I found intoxicating - I entertain no delusions that there was anything going on at the other end, I was just a horny little bugger. QUOTE Did these girls want sex?!? Oh my! Sometimes I wish I had gone to a Christian college! Actually, yes, three of them did and knew what they were about. And the rest were very curious and wanting to find out. Wow - only two questions? -Lokmer Posted by: bdpuffin Dec 21 2003, 02:01 PM I can also relate to the wisps of regret over opportunities lost, including being a pre-Xtian 15-year-old and having a car pull up to where I was relaxing on a hillside at a city park, and a woman, mid to late 20's I'd guess, got out of that car, walked right up to me and asked 'You wanna fuck?" The look on her face when I said 'No thanks' makes me think she wasn't accustomed to being turned down by 15-year-old boys, and I've often owndered what the course of my life might have been like if I had accepted her proposition. Turned down other more subtle offers along the way...but whattaya gonna do? bdp Posted by: Matthew Dec 21 2003, 02:58 PM QUOTE Actually, yes, three of them did and knew what they were about. And the rest were very curious and wanting to find out. Sounds like me. I was very curious and wanted to know what it was like to get inside of a girl. I don't feel so guilty now as I did when I was an evangelical..but I have to admit that my curiosity got the best of me and I looked briefly at some porn. I still love seeing girls in swim suit pictures..I think it's those curvy hips that get me going. QUOTE Wow - only two questions? Well..mind if I ask you if you kept in contact with any of these horny girls or know any of them? Do any of them attend GTU or any liberal Seminary? I imagine that they do but I just want to see if I can make up for lost time and missed opportunities! Matthew Posted by: toecutter Dec 23 2003, 08:33 PM i know this is looking from a nonchristian perspective, but my faith has effected my sexual life tremendously. I've never kissed a girl. I'm seventeen. I'm not unattractive. I'm about 5'10", 130 -135 lbs, i've got shoulder length curly hair, it's like auburn, or something. Girls freak out when they see it. anyways, i've been told i'm pretty funny, i've been told i'm cute, i've been told that i'm very dateable. The wierd thing is, through all my intense adolescant sexuality and lust... i've never even really wanted a girlfriend. Those of you who've read my threads know that i'm somewhat jacked up emotionally, so i've just never really had the desire for a relationship that would potentially mess me up even more. these past few months, though, i've grown increasingly anxious about girls. i've been casually dating a couple female friends, no romantic overtones, though. I've got to thinking that maybe I really want a girl, now. I feel like I may have missed out on something. also, I really, really want to have sex. I know that I'm not supposed to... but my hand is starting to get tired. I never thought it was possible for someone to be so horny. Unfortunately though, I feel very, very guilty for all of these feelings. I know that it's completely natural, that every young person feels this way, that feeling guilty is absurd... but, well, I just don't know. I've been taught that my lust is wrong. very wrong. I've been taught that sex outside of marriage is also very wrong. Because I know just how horny I am, maybe that's why I've never pursued a relationship with a girl... because I don't trust myself. anyway, i felt like I should post here because, well, i'm a christain, and i'm struggling with sexuality. Posted by: toecutter Mar 2 2004, 07:24 PM heh. i just read this post from a few months ago. It seems like a different person. I've gone from being guilt-ridden to being totally apathetic about the whole thing. I'm still horny as ever, and still womanless, but I just don't have the energy to care anymore. anyway, that's kind of an entertaining read. Posted by: Killswitch Mar 3 2004, 01:50 AM I would say that it still affects me to some degree. when i was in a serious relationship, actually up until last month i was having nice bi-weekly or so sex sessions. and even after close to a year of dating, and a good 9 months of hot action, i still would feel traces of guilt, like i was doing something wrong. Posted by: brick Mar 3 2004, 12:17 PM Oh boy, did it effect my sex life! For the longest time, as a teenager and a young adult, I ignored hints from girls because I had been taught that nice girls 'don't'. I would think "no, she couldn't possibly have meant that!" I could kick my own ass for all the missed opportunities at intimacy. Catholicism raised me to believe that it was enormously taboo, not something you should think about or act on. The whole issue in my experience was swept under the rug which only made me more obtuse on the matter. It wasn't openly regarded as sin, it just plain wasn't regarded . Weird. Needless to say I was a wreck whenever I talked to girls, even ones that I was only friends with. I used to get so nervous I shook just from casual conversation. It took along time to get over the programming, well into adulthood. I eventually got over the taboo and the nervousness but it was much more difficult than getting over the loss of faith, oddly enough. I didn't have any sort of real girlfriend til I was 17 and even then I was a bit nervous with her. I was accosted (willingly) by a fairly drunken 18 year old girl the year before at a new years party who repeatedly cornered me and gave me some long lingering kisses (ah, still remember those lips!) and that did a lot to speed my emergence as a sexual being (thank you dear, wherever you are!). I don't think I suffer anymore from the after effects, I've grown into a fairly liberal skin and enjoy the feel of it. Posted by: Captain Ambivalent Mar 4 2004, 12:55 PM I can honestly say that I don't find my Christian sexual upbringing to be harmful. After four years of dating, my wife and I married, and we had sex for the first time the night of our honeymoon. Four years later, I have no regrets about our choices. I still think of sex as huge and important, and I can't imagine having it with someone other than the love of my life. I really dislike the flippant attitude displayed by many here in regards to sex, but, luckily, I am no longer in a postion where I feel compelled to change anyone's mind. As long as I still believe in an all-encompassing love between two people, I think I'll still believe in the superiority of life-long monogamy. However, since this belief is now almost completely based in my experience, I have no hope of convincing others here. Posted by: toecutter Mar 4 2004, 06:29 PM i've still never even kissed a girl. Posted by: Starflier Mar 4 2004, 11:22 PM QUOTE (Captain Ambivalent @ Mar 4 2004, 12:55 PM) I can honestly say that I don't find my Christian sexual upbringing to be harmful. After four years of dating, my wife and I married, and we had sex for the first time the night of our honeymoon. Four years later, I have no regrets about our choices. I still think of sex as huge and important, and I can't imagine having it with someone other than the love of my life. I really dislike the flippant attitude displayed by many here in regards to sex, but, luckily, I am no longer in a postion where I feel compelled to change anyone's mind. As long as I still believe in an all-encompassing love between two people, I think I'll still believe in the superiority of life-long monogamy. However, since this belief is now almost completely based in my experience, I have no hope of convincing others here. Your wife is one lucky woman. I agree with everything you said about committed love & sex with the same person. There are, however, no guarantees. Posted by: toecutter Mar 19 2004, 01:14 AM i was just wondering, does anyone have any comments on my story? I mean, can anyone relate there? Posted by: ericf Mar 19 2004, 04:34 AM I can add one little comment... which I had said elsewhere but your story originally made me think of. I have never french kissed a girl. But I've been downtown several times. How messed up is that? Of course, my eagerness to head south might have something to do with never french kissing... seriously, I love the taste but I think some girls are turned off by the idea of frenching a mouth full of their vaginal fluids. To be fair, I wouldn't want to french a mouth full of my fluids either. Posted by: The Pure One Mar 19 2004, 09:58 AM QUOTE (Captain Ambivalent @ Mar 4 2004, 12:55 PM) I can honestly say that I don't find my Christian sexual upbringing to be harmful. After four years of dating, my wife and I married, and we had sex for the first time the night of our honeymoon. Four years later, I have no regrets about our choices. I still think of sex as huge and important, and I can't imagine having it with someone other than the love of my life. I really dislike the flippant attitude displayed by many here in regards to sex, but, luckily, I am no longer in a postion where I feel compelled to change anyone's mind. As long as I still believe in an all-encompassing love between two people, I think I'll still believe in the superiority of life-long monogamy. However, since this belief is now almost completely based in my experience, I have no hope of convincing others here. There are no absolutes, people come to relationships from the uniqueness of their life experience. Monogamy is monogamy, and I think the only way to be completely fulfilled is to have sex in the context of a loving relationship. This is an independent thing from virginity, however. I don't think there is anything special to virginity that either supports or precludes lasting monogamy. I'm reminded of a religious friend who recently married. He and his fiance were both virgins, and shortly before the wedding she had had a bit too much to drink at a party and confessed to several friends that she had lost her virginity to another man during a break in their relationship. He never found out that I know of, though I'm sure it would have unnecessarily distressed him if he did. The views of the "purity" of virginity is often just insecurity, and the fact that no one likes to think about their loved one getting it on with someone else. Ultimately what matters is how emotionally, physically, intellectually, and spiritually compatible you are. Being virgins when you marry does not automatically make your relationship stronger or weaker, either one can be true. In those cases where physical incompatibility is revealed after the marriage, it can be disastrous. I have a friend who is a professional therapist dealing with relationship/marriage counseling/sex issues, and he has always said that without religion he would probably lose 90% of his business. From his research and experience I would opine that the majority of such marriages run into trouble, so while I hope yours would not fall into that category, and I'm certain you don't feel it will, your sample-of-one shows little. Statistically, the idea that your approach is "superior" is highly questionable in the overall sense, and in the specific sense, saying "it's superior when it works" is also meaningless. If a relationship works, it works period. The real problem is people being bashed with guilt if they don't remain virgins until marriage. That's unnecessary, but then bashing people with guilt is what Xtianity is all about. Posted by: The Pure One Mar 19 2004, 11:22 AM QUOTE (ericf @ Mar 19 2004, 04:34 AM) I have never french kissed a girl. But I've been downtown several times. How messed up is that? Of course, my eagerness to head south might have something to do with never french kissing... seriously, I love the taste but I think some girls are turned off by the idea of frenching a mouth full of their vaginal fluids. To be fair, I wouldn't want to french a mouth full of my fluids either. Actually I've *never* encountered a girl who wouldn't kiss me after my having gone down on her. Women don't seem to be as uptight about it as men would be. Many will even give a BJ after you've been inside them, back and forth, etc. *shrug*. I've only been with one woman who didn't want me to go down on her. I never figured out the real reason. She wasn't religious, didn't think she tasted bad. But she was still uptight about that. She did let me do it on occasion, and even *she* would kiss me afterward, so go figure. Funny thing is, she's a very pretty woman. Very pretty face, and an unusually well proportioned body, like someone who would model for fantasy art (in fact she had been asked on numerous occasions). She could be Rachel Hunter's sister. A real head-turner, and we got along well personally. But she was so uptight in bed that it was just a drag. Pretty much just wanted it in the missionary position, and only for a short while. Had always had trouble having orgasms (no wonder, when you're that uptight), and it just killed it for me. She was used to guys getting on top of her and losing it in about three seconds because she's so attractive, but I eventually found myself thinking of other things just to keep it up. *ugh*. How utterly boring. At this point, if I were ever single again, if she called up to say come on over and do me, I would rather sit home and watch an original Star Trek rerun for 137th time. All the looks in the world don't make up for a lame attitude. But anyway, even she wasn't averse to french kissing after yodelling in the valley, so I have to think it's pretty rare. Oral sex on the woman is so often a prelude to regular sex that women must be used to it as no big deal. I think they'd rather be kissed during the main course than worry about it. Posted by: ericf Mar 19 2004, 02:19 PM lol, well this was a fairly wierd relationship to say the least. It was like being fuck buddies but without the fucking. Posted by: Lizard Mar 19 2004, 02:42 PM I have a question to add..I didn't see it answered anywhere..could have missed it though. I've never been with a fully committed xtian man..you know, the ones who go to church fifty times a week..quote scriptures night and day... So, here's my question: Did sex change after deconverting? Was it..how to put this? Passionate before? In other words, are fundamental xtian men as passionate in their spreading the legs as they are in spreading the gospel? I have yet to figure out how to ask this of a fundie..but I'm seriously curious...(they wouldn't answer me anyway..probably think I'm possessed with a demon of lust or something..but I have thought of asking...) Posted by: The Pure One Mar 19 2004, 03:02 PM QUOTE (ericf @ Mar 19 2004, 02:19 PM) lol, well this was a fairly wierd relationship to say the least. It was like being fuck buddies but without the fucking. Hey, I would be OK with lick buddies. I like going down on women so much that if I could have, I would have advertised a free pussy-licking service. "I'll even keep my clothes on, no payback necessary!". Posted by: woodsmoke Mar 20 2004, 02:28 AM Pure, consider yourself lucky you're not stuck in the hell hole that is Utah. Regardless of wether they're religious or not, almost all the girls out here are so ultra-conservative just from the local culture they're raised in that they barely even tolerate sex before marriage, let alone accept it. IF--and that's a big if--they actually do let you make a trip down under rather than just strict intercourse, the possibility that they'll let you kiss them after you've got their stuff in your mouth ranges from about zero to none. Welcome to my Mormon fundamentalist Hell. Posted by: The Pure One Mar 20 2004, 10:34 AM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Mar 20 2004, 02:28 AM) Pure, consider yourself lucky you're not stuck in the hell hole that is Utah. Regardless of wether they're religious or not, almost all the girls out here are so ultra-conservative just from the local culture they're raised in that they barely even tolerate sex before marriage, let alone accept it. IF--and that's a big if--they actually do let you make a trip down under rather than just strict intercourse, the possibility that they'll let you kiss them after you've got their stuff in your mouth ranges from about zero to none. Welcome to my Mormon fundamentalist Hell. Yikes! Who needs hell in the afterlife, sounds like you're living in the 9th ring of hell already. ;) I grew up in Southern California, and I'll be buried here. Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |