Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Rants and Replies > Scared of the Future


Posted by: whatifidont... Nov 3 2004, 03:35 PM
For those of you who know me, which is to say no one, you know these fears already. Since you, the person reading this, do not know me, give me a second to elaborate.

I am scared of the future in this country. I worry that one day I will be forced to reveal everything about myself, including religion, sexual preference, and possibly even if I had masturbated that day or not. This is not the ranting of a senile old man, but rather the concerns of a young 17 year old with a self-esteem problem.

I worry that since Bush got reelected more crazy Christians will. Soon, I worry, I will be constantly watched by Big Brother. I just read an article today about a sort of watch that has a gps system built in so that parents can monitor their children. What has become of privacy?

I saw an article online about police busting into a bar and locking the doors, then forcing everyone to submit a urine sample. This was not on a bogus website, but rather came from a news agency. How long until the government decides that they know what is best for us? How long until non-Christians are taxed, persecuted, and possibly prosecuted by government officials for their beliefs?

I need someone elses opinions to make sense of my own thoughts and feeling, but thanks for letting me dump.

-Jake

Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 04:25 PM
I share your fears

we as Americans have no rights
at any moment everything you think is your right to have, do, say or protect can be taken from you
And information collected about your life that you think is private can be used against you
They can take everything
Your home
your family
everything
at any moment
of any given day
by the government the American people think they elected
the government we as Americans, sat quietly by and gave absolute powewr to
It happens
It happens every day

It scares the fuck outa me

Posted by: Yaoi Huntress Earth Nov 3 2004, 04:27 PM
I can definately understand your fears. Just getting out of college last winter, I worry a lot about the job market myself. Not to mention the sheep mentality of a lot of people in this country and the overall selfish, ignorant, anti-intellectualism, and meaness that is encouraged in society that I fear that I may not find the kind, intellegent, and compassionate man of my dreams.
Did anyone see Trio's specials on the Texas a few months ago? I'm sorry but I find nothing admireable about teens with "spit babies" (Texas Teenage Virgins) or think Bush is a "cowboy." The sad thing is that Trio mentioned the possibility of this kind of mentality spreading to the rest of the country (the texification of America). I guess all we can do is hope or I get enough money to move out of this country.

Posted by: whatifidont... Nov 3 2004, 04:42 PM
I was hoping that I would not have to say this but I fear another Nazi government. Of course we would not call it that, but in essence that is what it would be. I worry that because I am pagan, my girlfriend is pagan, and virtually everyone that I care for and respect are not Christian, we will all end up dead. Or worse.

I worry that one day I wont be aloud to flee this country if things get to bad. I worry that eventually I will have a number tattooed or burned into my arm. I worry that I will be a slave to a system that has become more corrupt and evil than anyone would like to imagine. I am also scared because it is illegal to rebel against the government!

What kind of hypocrisy is that! This nation was born from rebels and now we cannot overthrow the government, for I believe that it is only through the death of one government that a purer form can come into existence.

But once again I fear another Holocaust, only this time one that no one will make a move to prevent or stop because we have Nuke's. We would (and probably do already) keep others from making war on us by having enough nuclear weapons to destroy the earth 7 times.

Why do I have nightmares about these things? Why can I not sleep at night for my worries of the future? Is this normal for a child my age?

-Jake

Posted by: ficino Nov 3 2004, 04:50 PM
whatifidont, I'm sure you plan at least to start by registering to vote next year and convincing as many of your friends as possible to do the same. Too many young people are still either unregistered or don't vote.

Posted by: whatifidont... Nov 3 2004, 05:42 PM
Gods I am sick and tired of hearing about voting! Yes, I will register to vote!

I have had to answer the phone for weeks and get nothing but political ads, and I am sick of it!

Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 05:54 PM
Dude I feel your pain. I'm 18 and I scared shitless about the things bush has planned. The draft will most likely come back(type US draft into google ) in mid
2005 but of course bush will double-speak and say that it not a draft it's an
"emergency inscription"(which is basically the same thing). Forced psychological
examinations to get a job. National ID card(bye,bye privacy). Patriot Act 1 and 2.
PENAC(Project for a New American Century).Our rights are slowly but surely being
stripped away. Check out these sites with links to legitimate AP newswire articles.


http://www.infowars.com


http://www.prisonplanet.com

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Nov 3 2004, 06:19 PM
The American Revolution was won by 1/3 of the American populace against the Briitish Empire. The US military CANNOT fight a war against 100 million of its own populace in its own streets. NBC weapons would be useless. The military wouldn't back it- one retired army or Marine general or colonel saying "fuck no!" would prevent this from happening. Wesley Clark wouldn't allow such a thing to happen. Nor would Colin Powell.

Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 06:23 PM
I really hope people open their eyes an DO fight. I know that what I mentioned above is not common knowledge.

Posted by: jaded Nov 3 2004, 06:26 PM
The government doesn't need to use the military to enforce it's policies on it's own people. It is far easier to slowly legislate our freedoms aways and scare us into thinking it is for our own good. The patriot act has killed our right to privacy and opened up new doors for police and government harassment.

What's next? I dont think some of the things that were simple paranoia years ago are that far fetched today. The very principles this country was founded on we just voted away in the name of security and moral values.

Scary!

As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree with Rainy 100% FrogsToadBigGrin.gif It's scary what they can do and are doing.

Posted by: Lila Bender Nov 3 2004, 06:33 PM
My friends,

Your fears are founded and frighteningly rational. There are those who would call you paranoid, but you are not. Just think about this; the Mexican gov't, in certain branch offices, has all employees monitored by having them implanted with sub-dermal micro-chips that they say are only to keep an eye on their whereabouts. Sure, and government would never ever do anything secretly. You know, like in 1956-1957 how the US government secretly vented radioactive steam North, to Canada. Here. Where I live. They then sent CIA over the border to monitor the vented region's hospitals and report any effects.

Way before my time. Also, way befoe the US government got really good at hiding stuff.

All the tech to put you in a fish bowl is already a reality. Thank Papa Legba that it is also enormously expensive. A Belgium company has created software that uses an 18 character alpha-numeric incription code that can provide enough sequences to, basically, apply a UPC to every person in the world. Not very practical now, but you can bet your fine young American ass that if it becomes practical your government will find a way to apply it.

Funny thing about that code, when viewed, it is broken down into 3 groups of 6 characters. 6 6 6. MMMMM. Creepy, cause ya know, what some people (who we won't mention) say about that particular combination; if ya ain't marked by it, ya ain't a franchised person.

I'm scared too. Canada's not exactly a conflict ready nation. The state of our military is truly embarassing, given the huge importance we played in the conflicts that actually mattered. Not that the US was fighting for the reasons that mattered, even though they said they were. It was a Canandian journalist, by the by, that uncovered the truth about WWII; the president knew in advance about Pearl Harbour and, needing public support etc., did what Bush did about the Twin Towers. Nothing. Just let it happen so he could draw your country into a war for profit. War time economy; the answer to every depression. Prozac for Politics.


Lastly, as for THE DRAFT. Dudes, we were here for you before, we'll be here for you again. Canada has an awesome record of offering santcuary for the sane few who choose to flee. From the underground railroad to Vietnam, Canada has provided refuge to the people who would be treated as refuse by their own nation.


I make a great apple pie.

Lila.

Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 06:34 PM
A major problem is the average american is so conditioned and probably won't fight whats coming because they won't think its a big deal. Soon cars will be required to have a GPS system so big brother can keep tabs on us. The level of
tyranny is unbelievable. But this of course it just to keep us protected from terrorists right? Wendywhatever.gif

Posted by: Zach Nov 3 2004, 06:37 PM
To be fair, the forced-urine test was in Bankok, not America. I don't think we're in danger of that.

http://www.news-leader.com/today/1101-Urinetests-215727.html

But I have heard from friends in the military that Bush's foreign policy is going to need more troops, troops that he doesn't yet have. They tell me to look for a 'recruitment mobilization' sometime in the summer of 2005. I hope they're wrong.

Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 06:42 PM
GPS trackers scare the fuck outa me
People are actually volunteering to be implanted with these things
They will be marketed to the public
"Your child will never be abducted or lost"
"if your car breaks down you will be saved"

most likely eventually be implanted in every child born



Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 06:46 PM
QUOTE (fuct> @ Nov 3 2004, 05:54 PM)
Dude I feel your pain. I'm 18 and I scared shitless about the things bush has planned. The draft will most likely come back(type US draft into google ) in mid
2005 but of course bush will double-speak and say that it not a draft it's an
"emergency inscription"(which is basically the same thing).

Edit - "Emergency Conscription".

Posted by: Shadfox Nov 3 2004, 06:46 PM
QUOTE
Dudes, we were here for you before, we'll be here for you again. Canada has an awesome record of offering santcuary for the sane few who choose to flee. From the underground railroad to Vietnam, Canada has provided refuge to the people who would be treated as refuse by their own nation.


I make a great apple pie.


I'm not so worried about getting drafted myself, but Canada has been my dream home and I'm curious to what is required for immigration. I know I'd have to have 10K in net worth.

If I was able to get into Canada I'd revoke my US citizenship as soon as I got settled.

Posted by: BigToe Nov 3 2004, 06:46 PM
Thing about the GPS implants, many fundies are saying its the "mark of the beast" and thus won't get it. And so I don't think its going to be mandatory at any time soon. They'd have to convince the fundies that this chip is not going to mark them for the devil and thus harm their chances at getting into heaven.

Posted by: BigToe Nov 3 2004, 06:47 PM
HAHA, well the news is saying that there hasn't been a mass exitus to Canada but that the Canadian officials are letting people know its an option but to get the proper immigration status needed- resident maybe?- may take upwards of a year.

Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 06:54 PM
QUOTE (Lila Bender @ Nov 3 2004, 06:33 PM)
Lastly, as for THE DRAFT. Dudes, we were here for you before, we'll be here for you again. Canada has an awesome record of offering santcuary for the sane few who choose to flee. From the underground railroad to Vietnam, Canada has provided refuge to the people who would be treated as refuse by their own nation.


I make a great apple pie.

Lila.

I'm not so sure.

http://www.utne.com/webwatch/2004_147/news/11211-1.html



QUOTE
More than 30 years after the last young man was sent off to Vietnam to be slaughtered in a war ultimately so unpopular that many Americans believe the selective service will never again rear its ugly head, the Bush administration's motives for reinstating the draft are clear (especially if the Pentagon unilaterally attacks a third country this fall before the election). Cochran writes: "Twenty-one of the US Army's 33 regular combat brigades are now on active duty in the 'hot' zones of Iraq, Afghanistan, South Korea, and the Balkans. That's 63 percent of the Army's fighting force. This is a huge overextension. History has proven that long-term military operations can only be sustained if you have twice as many soldiers waiting in the pipeline as are stationed out in the field. By that rule of thumb, the regular military is now 125,000 soldiers short."



And "draft dodging" would not be as easy as it was during the Vietnam Conflict, since attending college, being female, or fleeing to Canada could not be used as shelters this time around. Stutz writes, "underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year." Meanwhile, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, "Canada and the U.S. signed a 'Smart Border Declaration,' which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in [the United States]." Hold your boys close, mommas. If Bush wins in November, they could be trading their high school diplomas in for dog tags.
-- Jacob Wheeler




Thanks anyway. Wendyshrug.gif

Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 06:59 PM
QUOTE (BigToe @ Nov 3 2004, 06:46 PM)
Thing about the GPS implants, many fundies are saying its the "mark of the beast" and thus won't get it. And so I don't think its going to be mandatory at any time soon. They'd have to convince the fundies that this chip is not going to mark them for the devil and thus harm their chances at getting into heaven.

Once they are convinced of how "safe" it will make them and their children they will go willingly

Posted by: BigToe Nov 3 2004, 07:00 PM
Then see a therapist and get a mental reason you can avoid the draft. I think people that voted for Bush should be the first ones sent off to war if it comes to a draft. with 50 some odd million folks voting for him, they can find enough to do his dirty work.

Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 07:11 PM
Collection of news articles on this site about The Draft:

http://www.willthomas.net/Convergence/Weekly/US_Military_Draft_2005.htm




Posted by: fuct> Nov 3 2004, 07:20 PM
Here's a video Jon Stewart played on his show. It's Bush at a rally. Freudian slip?


http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/october2004/211004perspective.htm

Posted by: Lila Bender Nov 3 2004, 07:26 PM

"And "draft dodging" would not be as easy as it was during the Vietnam Conflict, since attending college, being female, or fleeing to Canada could not be used as shelters this time around. Stutz writes, "underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year." Meanwhile, shortly after the 9/11 terrorist attacks, "Canada and the U.S. signed a 'Smart Border Declaration,' which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in [the United States]." Hold your boys close, mommas. If Bush wins in November, they could be trading their high school diplomas in for dog tags.
-- Jacob Wheeler"


Well, crap, I guess I'll just have to keep being a little anarchist and do whatever the fuck I want anyway. You know, like run my mouth on a thread, rant and rave at the injustice of it all and then go watch South Park. Trey Parker happens to be my hero. He said it best in an episode on the constitution; America is a country that is based on saying one thing and doing the exact oppposite. Which is why you really need your leftist, hippie haired, tree hugging, pot smoking, commie, draft dodgers; the media flashes a few protest marches against the right all over the world, showing American's desire for change and justice. That kind of shit is one of the only things mitagating violent sentiment towards the US. Seeing a supposedly democratic country allowing for a protest against its own policies is just enough of a mollifier to let people go "Whew! Let's just wait and see."

"Wait and see", before you know it, turns to apathy, and the next thing you know, your very own government is buying defective subs from the British.


Lila

Posted by: ChefRanden Nov 3 2004, 07:59 PM
I truely wish I had something to comfort you all with, but I don't. You will have to fight for your freedom, if you want it. It is time to revive the SDS. It is time to organize, before the shit hits the fan. It is time to prepare to resist the draft. My generation had to do it that is go get shoot at by the vietnamese or get pounded by police clubs. Find out who is organizing and join them.
Practice chanting "hell no we won't go"!

I thought that my generation had fixed this crap, looks like we got old and tired raising you young ones. Sorry that we didn't see it coming. When you take it to the street many of us will be with you. In place of being scared get mad as hell!

I really thought that the young people would put Bush on the street. This could be your moment to shine.

Those of you from other lands need to work on getting your governments to sanction the USA for it's war crime, and for being ugly and arrogant, and stupid. Can you imagine what hell would break loose here if we couldn't get cheap underware, or diapers?

Posted by: Lila Bender Nov 3 2004, 08:14 PM
"Those of you from other lands need to work on getting your governments to sanction the USA for it's war crime, and for being ugly and arrogant, and stupid. Can you imagine what hell would break loose here if we couldn't get cheap underware, or diapers? "


Or hydro-electric power from St. James. Power that we send state side at the cost of brownouts to communities in Newfoundland.

California has yet to pay B.C for its power for the last three years, and Arnie wants to stop filming movies in Vancouver, EH?

Softwood? the WTO has sided with us, but our gov so afraid of the big bad burning Bush that they'll do nothing. Nothing.

The US stance on our beef (which my family breeds and we have never used animal bi-products on out ranch) has forced our gov to find and develop our own infrastructure to process the beef we once sent South. In the long run, better for us anyway.

Sure, there are lots of ways we can put pressure on our politicians to put pressure on your politicians. For now, we'll lead by example. HAHAHAHAHA.

We did write off the huge debts that three 3rd world countries owed us and have more on our list. See what a little pressure from one Irish man can do? Thanks Bono.

Lila




Posted by: Optimus Prime Nov 3 2004, 08:19 PM
im eighteen, soon to be nineteen. i still have not registered.
and i refuse to. they can send me to jail, i can out last them.
they can fine me, they wwont get much. but they will not break me.
i refuse to give my self, my body, or my strength to fight for cheney and
bushes friends. i refuse to see my friends die for a lie. and i refuse to let
anyone tell me what my life is worth.

Posted by: DoubleDee Nov 3 2004, 08:27 PM
I refuse to live in fear it fogs my mind and I want to think clear.

Debbie D

Posted by: lalli Nov 3 2004, 08:38 PM
QUOTE (ChefRanden @ Nov 4 2004, 03:59 AM)
Those of you from other lands need to work on getting your governments to sanction the USA for it's war crime, and for being ugly and arrogant, and stupid. Can you imagine what hell would break loose here if we couldn't get cheap underware, or diapers?

Well, I don't know how much I can do seeing as I'm planning on staying in Europe, and our underwear is so pricy that I haven't changed mine in weeks. wicked.gif However, I want to do my European best to make the world suck less, and the US is part of that world.

And as a born-and-bred Canadian, allow me to join Lila in extending my welcome to any and all Americans who wish to flee while they can. Heck, if nothing else you can come up to B.C. for the best skiing this side of the Atlantic. woohoo.gif

Posted by: Shadfox Nov 3 2004, 08:41 PM
Withhold the Canadian beer! I want suburban America to pay dearly for this!

Posted by: TruthWarrior Nov 3 2004, 08:43 PM
Either way it's exciting and action packed. I say bring it on ya crazies! woohoo.gif

It's all about how you look at things really. You can cower in the corner in a fetal position, sucking your thumb, fearful of the neo-brownshirts or ya can say "ah fuck it!"

I think lot's of this fear is also instilled in us from being constantly pounded by fearmongering politics and religion. Coming out of religion we have left over fears of coming apocolypses, marks of the beasts, and being "left behind". In politics we're pounded by The Party's fears of loss of ozone or freedom, and the big scary terrorist evildoers around every corner.

The end of the world is over hyped, slippery slope shit. It's cute. It's fun. It's zany. It's wild. But it ain't nothing to loose any sleep over. Tommorrow you might be hit by a mack truck while crossing the street. No flashy death of martydom by dictators for you. You'll just get a quick boring old squish. WendyDoh.gif


Posted by: spamandham Nov 3 2004, 09:00 PM
There are three axioms you can count on.

1) Bureaucrats are incompetant as hell
2) Bureaucrats can be bribed and blackmailed and are mortal
3) There is always an out for those willing to take it

The rest is left as an excercise. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif



Posted by: Lila Bender Nov 3 2004, 09:11 PM
"spamandham Posted on Nov 3 2004, 09:00 PM
There are three axioms you can count on.

1) Bureaucrats are incompetant as hell
2) Bureaucrats can be bribed and blackmailed and are mortal
3) There is always an out for those willing to take it

The rest is left as an excercise. "


"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and its evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
-Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC
Long live the NWO.


Kisses,
Lila

Posted by: Rameus Nov 3 2004, 09:50 PM
(by Lila)
QUOTE
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and its evident that the end of the world is fast approaching."
-Assyrian tablet, c. 2800 BC
Long live the NWO.


To my knowledge the earliest extant cuneiform inscriptions in the Akkadian language are circa 2,400-2,500 B.C.E. There is so much of this "popular archaeology" trash online; it makes me sick sometimes. But hey, I guess if some people enjoy it then what the Hell. As long as people don't rant and rave at me about their wackjob theories. I met a woman a few weeks back and as soon as she found out what field I was in she started raving on about how she just knows the Giza pyramids are hollow, and how there are all these ancient books inside that will explain everything to us. She then went on to assert that the Incans were really Egyptians and that both of these civilizations were one back in the days of Pangaea. I wanted to slaughter myself like a lamb (on the altar of YHWH) after listening to her go off about how if she could do it all over again, she'd be an archaeologist. I told her: "With all due respect Madame, Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, and Edgar Cayce are anything but archaeologists." The fucking Incans and the Egyptians were one civilization, what in the Christ is that madness. People read this shit and for some reason they believe it.

I like to keep an open mind about things, but some of these theories are raving lunacy. I enjoy romanticizing the past as much as the next person, but sweet Christ's naval there has to be a line in the sand somewhere.

I really went off there didn’t I? *medicates himself*

Rameus

Posted by: woodsmoke Nov 3 2004, 09:57 PM
I have to admit, even though I know it's almost totally irrational, I am scared as all Hell. My hands are shaking as I type this, I can feel adrenaline rushing through my veins, and though it's not racing my pulse is a good bit higher than usual.

I'm not only broke, I'm in the hole more than a thousand dollars. I still have no job. I have no diploma, though I'll hopefully be going in to test for my GED soon. I have no vehicle. Simply put, I have absolutely no means of escape, and quite frankly, it scares the shit of out of me.

I know if I had a job, I'm committed enough at this point that I could do whatever it takes to ensure I get out of here ASAP. But at this point I'm so frightened I may not get a job soon enough to have time to save and get out.

About a week after I hit 18, after hearing the horror stories of what would happen to me if I didn't, I stupidly went right to the Selective Service website and registered with them. Should my number come up, they have only to look into their database to get all the information they need on me.

I've gotten numerous offers from people outside the U.S. who have assured me a place to stay for a while should I need it. I'm more grateful than words can express to these folks, but their great generosity won't help me much if I can't get there to take them up on the offer.

I've always wanted to see and experience the rest of the world outside the U.S., but I never imagined I would do so more with the intention of fleeing my homeland than anything else. I have to agree with Shadfox; once I'm safely across the border I don't give a damn what they do with my U.S. citizenship. It would be hard never being allowed to return to visit my family and friends, but better to live in exile than die on foreign soil for some fucking beurocrat.

I know there's a lot of talk about revolution. As much as I would like to believe it, I simply can't bring myself to place my fate into the confidence of such a potential action. I don't want to wait for the shadow of a political overthrow to materialize. I want to get out now, before things take a turn for the worst and the government comes to carry me off to some foreign front for no legitimate reason other than "Big Brother Wants You!" I want to get out before I'm forced into hiding for not conceeding to the wishes of the government.

Bah, I'm not talking sense here. I'm just frightened all to Hell and pumped too full of fear and adrenaline to do anything to take my mind off it or go to sleep.

Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 10:02 PM
QUOTE (Optimus Prime @ Nov 3 2004, 08:19 PM)
im eighteen, soon to be nineteen. i still have not registered.
and i refuse to. they can send me to jail, i can out last them.
they can fine me, they wwont get much. but they will not break me.
i refuse to give my self, my body, or my strength to fight for cheney and
bushes friends. i refuse to see my friends die for a lie. and i refuse to let
anyone tell me what my life is worth.

Good for you!!!

I am the mother of 3 sons
I only hope I can raise them up to think like this
I hope there are more young men that will stand up like this too
a lot more

If I was your mother I would be extremely proud

-Steph



Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 10:05 PM
QUOTE
Bah, I'm not talking sense here. I'm just frightened all to Hell and pumped too full of fear and adrenaline to do anything to take my mind off it or go to sleep.


Makes perfect sense to me woody

Posted by: woodsmoke Nov 3 2004, 10:08 PM
Thanks Rainy, though admittedly, that's what I'm afraid of.

Posted by: rainyday8169 Nov 3 2004, 10:10 PM
Me too Woody, me too

Posted by: erik the awful Nov 3 2004, 10:29 PM
There is much to fear. Yet there is more to hope. I offer this free advice:

1. Study history carefully. This shit has happened before. This shit will happen again. Understanding how and why this shit happened before will help you understand how and why this shit is happening now, and will give you some ideas for dealing with it.

2. Listen to any one who survived to 60s. They've SEEN this shit before. Then read #1 again. Listen good.

3. Get very very clear on what you are willing to live with, what you want to live for, and what you are willing to die for. Understand that a human who has gotten clear on this issue is immensely powerful. A crowd of people who have gotten clear on this issue is even more powerful.

4. Understand that rights are something that EVERYONE are born with. Rights are not GIVEN nor TAKEN AWAY. They are INFRINGED. I know one man on this board who will not have his rights infringed. Ever. He might die in the process of defending his rights, but he will die free.

5. Train in the martial arts. Know how to take care of yourself. Teach others.

And stop it with the "I'm trapped and can't get up" crap. I know some of you are in a tight spot. I'm in a tight spot too. Wanna hear it? Cancer, chemo, bankrupcy, baby to feed. But your thinking "I'm trapped and can't get up" is FUCKING you HARDER then the government will EVER be able to. Cut it the fuck out and believe in yourselves. There is NOTHING you can't acomplish if you believe that you can.

A couple of quotes?
I know this one might seem trite, but it's not:
"Give me liberty or give me death." Patrick Henry, 1775 (i think). Dude was clear on point number three.

"Get busy living or get busy dying." Andy, Shawshank Redemption, 1994. Another dude clear on point #3, and in a tighter spot than me or maybe any of you.

So what do you need to do? make a list. Get busy.

Posted by: woodsmoke Nov 3 2004, 11:31 PM
Thanks Erik, I needed that.

Best thing I can do for myself right now is to go to bed and get some sleep. That always adds a healthy perspective.

Posted by: Lokmer Nov 4 2004, 02:52 AM
Excellent post, Erik.

A few more points for you young'ns who are elligible for a potential draft:

1) The draft bill in congress was introduced by a Democratic senator for the express and sole purpose of scaring young voters to the polls. It still didn't work - the 18-25 set turned out in the normally abysmal numbers (better than usual, but not great by a long shot). If you don't want to get drafted, you have to FUCKING VOTE. Not just that, you have to write to your Senators, Legislators, and Congress Critters often. Sign up for the ACLU, NRA, EFF, and whatever other civil rights newsletters you can think of. And be INVOLVED.

Ben Franklin (I believe) said "People always get the government that they deserve." We live in a country of people who are afraid of freedom and willing to abdicate their power. Well, Heinlein had it right in Starship Troopers: "If you're not a citizen, you're a slave." And while being elliglble to vote may make you a legal citizen, it don't mean shit if you don't practice the responsibilities of a citizen. A man who will not read is worse of than the man who can not read.

The draft bill, as it stands, is dead. It has been spiked from the committee (in Sept IIRC).

2) Whether Kerry or Bush won, a military buildup is inevitable - here's why: The country is mortgaged to the hilt. It is the end result of an economy based on a positive feedback loop - eventually there is a meltdown, and we're 10 years overdue. That military buildup is likely to be volunteer rather than conscripted - volunteer soldiers fight more readily - but a draft may happen eventually. Expect to see the gays and womens policies go by the wayside.

3) The country WILL have an economic collapse like '29 or worse. We're due. That's the whole story.

4) The "Global Power Elite" that conspiracy nuts are so fascinated with will not succeed in totalitarian dominance for years, if ever. Locator chips, Nat'l ID, etc - no dice. They are elected on the backs of Reconstructionist-minded Evangelicals who are nearly ALL premillennial dispensationalists and belive wholeheartedly in the Mark of the Beast. Too many Congressmen believe this to ever let it pass. This country is so precariously balanced right now that a leader risks civil war if he does not tread carefully. Even Bush, with his ivory-tower mentality, knows this.

5) Patriot 1 and 2 continue to lose court challenges. SCOTUS has already struck down several of the more egregious provisions - this trend will continue because many sections that effect citizens also seek to take power from the judiciary - and judges of all stripes do not cede power easily. Depend on petty selfishness in the courts to save our asses here - it's worked so far.

6) The PNAC Report is a roadmap for a global Pax Americana - it is not law. In some ways, the architects of it are successful. In others, they are failing badly. Eventually, the dirty secret is the roadmap laid out in PNAC isn't sustainable or achievable - if they had started in the 80s it would have been. Too little, too late. The report itself is available online at pnac.org - PNAC is a public think-tank and there documents are freely available. Read it for yourself.

7) Conspiracy ravings about Freemasons, Illuminati, and Skull and Bones have less going for them in the way of hard evidence than do fundamentalist Christians. The very notion of a global power conspiracy comes from the writings of 1st class nutcase and occultic "medium" Helena Petrona Blavatsky. She created a false history for most of these "secret societies" and that history is taken as gospel by uncritical and fearful people (witness the "Priory of Zion" nonsense in "The Da Vinci Code). The true histories of these societies are not difficult to come by, nor are they all that nefarious. The fact is that there have always been "secret societies" - clubs, fraternities, etc. of men of privilege which are used for personal advancement and the grooming of leaders by those with money and power, in the same way there are particular organizations that help the children of Missionaries or those training for a ministry. Interpersonal networking and politicking is the way the world works - get used to it. Each one of us does the same every day at work, we used to do it at church, we do it amongst our friends - building relationships that will be profitable either personally or professionally. S&B is one such society that has many powerful members right now. 60 years ago, Phi Beta Cappa was the powerful society. 80 years ago and prior, it was the Freemasons. Bug fucking deal. One need only look at the wildly varying philosophies, actions, and policies of the members of these groups to realize that the only "conspiracy" is for the preferential treatment of Frat brothers.

There are those (like some of the sites linked to on this thread) that claim a Satanic conspiracy, under the "god" Baphomet (Satan, symbolized by the inverted pentagram) - that this society is as old as Solomon, etc. It's bullshit. Baphomet came into existence in Spanish anti-muslim propaganda, and is a misspelling of "Mahomet" (Mohammed). Occultists are as gullible as the Christians they deride. Neither group reads history.

8) All that said, there are dark times ahead. The Reconstructionists control 2 branches, with the potential to get all 3. But SCOTUS isn't likely to tip over, as two of the three potential deaths/retirees are conservatives. And the Democrats still have the filibuster which can stop dead ANYTHING they think is important enough. We who are under 50 are spoiled fucking rotten - we have seen nothing but peace and prosperity and have no clue what politics or freedom or economics are really about. Politics has nothing to do with funding research, or sexual proclivities, or what not. Politics is a game of power. This is a republic - and we still have rights that are not being infringed. IF it goes to shit, we have no one to blame but our fucking lazy pathetic spoiled-rotten selves. When the people of Rome learned that they could vote themselves Bread and Circuses, the country collapsed financially - the imperialism had to grow to keep pace with the deficit. We're now in the same spot, for some of the same reasons.

"When you vote it is an act of political force, and force is another word for violence; the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived." - Starship Troopers, Robert A. Heinlein.


It's your country. It's your constitution. It's YOUR ASS! Stop biting your nails and get involved. Start thinking critically about politics the way you learned to think critically about religion. Get educated - starting with the basics - Federalist Papers, The Debate on the Constitution, Wealth of Nations, the Constitution and amendments. I know where my loyalties lie, and I'm not content to simply wait until it's time to take up arms before I'll fight. This country is 229 years old - the longest surviving democracy in the history of the world. And despite the oligarchical control, this is STILL a democracy, with the best-armed populace in the world.

So stop whining.
-Lokmer

Posted by: spamandham Nov 4 2004, 07:42 AM
There are any number of ways to make money without a job or a degree, especially if all you need is enough money to leave the country. Think outside the box.

Posted by: Messi Nov 4 2004, 01:44 PM
I just want to thank my lucky stars I live in NZ!!! Our leader is tough as hell, She once made Isreal angry over a few Mossad spies and I hope she does it to Bush. I was scared as shit when i read this thread.I hope you have a good time trying to survive the theocracy.....

Posted by: whatifidont... Nov 4 2004, 02:13 PM
*ahem* I have not been whining! I just wanted to know if my concerns were valid or not and the thread kind of took off. When I am 18, I will register to vote. I have another year until that happens, and I don't know if I will be eligable for the draft because a) I am the only son in my family. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif I was sent to a mental institution for suicidal ideation c) I have poor eye sight and d) I am a convicted felon.

All in all I am not the person you want handling a gun.

This talk that I have read about a rebellion/ civil war is disturbing. Individuals do have political power, though not very much. I do believe that our system is broken, and that we need to start new. I do not like the idea of war over it.

I am confused... this is more than I usually think about.

-Jake

Posted by: formerfundie Nov 4 2004, 02:53 PM
Thank you for that post, Lokmer, it was extremely encouraging and much, much different from most of the doomsday stuff I've been reading in these posts.

Frankly--I was very upset when I heard that the younger generation was not roused enough or concerned enough the other day to take to the polls. Think of it...if more of them had voted...just in the state of Ohio alone...it might have made a very significant difference.

I'm still depressed about the fact that the whole "marriage is only between one man and a woman" thing got passed both here(KY) and in Ohio--I don't think a government should really be able to define what that is for people because ultimately it is personal and it, in my opinion, is an infringement of rights. It didn't really come as any surprise, but I sure was hoping it would go the other way.
It's also not all that surprising to me that Bush won the election--he's backed by the good ole boys, is he not?

What is so disappointing to me about the entire election process, or at least it was this year for me more so than any other, is all of the money and energy (manpower) that is funneled into it that could be used for other things.

Ya know, Lokmer, I always enjoy reading your very grounded and well-informed points of view on things, so thanks for hanging out here.

FF


Posted by: nivek Nov 4 2004, 03:14 PM
Lokmer, All...

First Lok, thanks for penning what I've been trying to say for many months.

Participation or not is a choice. I suspect those who elect not to make choices are those who will willing be lead around like sheep, whatever their religious or not preferences are.

I've said it time and time again, this Mean_Old_Fatman has made his choices, been involved with what he can change and has ignored what he cannot.

Remember well Tip O'Neil's axiom, "All politics is local". If yer not far enough up the political ladder to grok why, then get off yer goddamn lazy ass and find out...

At 19 I was met my some blue suited men that had credentials from the Eff Bee Eye. Told me "Fatass, sign up for Selective Service NOW, or go to jail.."
In 1979 there wasn't much support for the Millitary and no one wanted to go to jail for Jimmy Carter..

Wasn't as politcally astute then, caved, signed my life away to the Matrix..
Thankfully that contract I signed never had to be called in and my ass used for fodder...

Shit always happens folks. Ask the people down in Florida day or days after the various hurricanes..
What amazes me is the lines of persons waitng to be served by resuce agencies.

Living in a place where things like this happen and that many were un-prepared...
Kinda awesome...

It is incumbent on the individual to make preparations to secure those things necessary for whatever constitutes *survival* and "living well in crappy times".

Shit goes down in my area haciendaFatman is not gonna be a one_day_soup_kitchen and blanket_giving for unprepared_idiots..

We live 60 miles downstream from Hanford Nuclear Reservation, not quite ten miles from Umatilla Army Chemical Weapons Depot and its incinerator, and have three petro-ag-industial plants right downtown, all within a mile of home..

We are prepared for most disasters..

Politics come, politics go. What happens in the tide of *your guy in* and *your guy out* is pretty well up to you.

Keep prepared, its a fuckin' way of life..

n, Freeman

>edited for the most common grammatical errors.. grevious spelling massacres my intentional faults<

Posted by: Lokmer Nov 4 2004, 05:33 PM
QUOTE (whatifidont... @ Nov 4 2004, 02:13 PM)
*ahem* I have not been whining! I just wanted to know if my concerns were valid or not and the thread kind of took off.

The "Stop Whining" comment was strong and harsh, and not directed particularly towards you. Since the election there have been a lot of chicken-littles running around saying that this is the end of everything - both hear and in meatspace.

You do have legitimate concerns. But I think they have been fed by a sense of helplessness and paranoia which is (a) illegitimate (i.e. overbolown) and (GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif incapacitating. Don't let the bastards grind you down, dude!

QUOTE (whatifidon't...)
I have another year until that happens, and I don't know if I will be eligable for the draft because a) I am the only son in my family.  I was sent to a mental institution for suicidal ideation c) I have poor eye sight and d) I am a convicted felon.


#2 and #3 will certiainly disqualify you from a draft. #1 might.

QUOTE
All in all I am not the person you want handling a gun.


As a convicted felon you are inelligble to own a gun in most states, unless you go before a judge to get your civil rights restored. I recommend you do that afer you turn 18. As far as whether I'd want you handling a gun - I walk through West Oakland several times a year, in the worst neighborhoods, and am usually the only male under 35 who ISN'T wearing a gun (simply because conceald-carry permits are hard to come by around here and I don't want to go to jail for it). You can handle a gun responsibly if you are (a) dilligent about learning to use it properly, and (GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif emotionally mature and diciplined enough to give it over to the safe keeping of a friend when you're having suicidal ideations.

QUOTE
This talk that I have read about a rebellion/ civil war is disturbing. Individuals do have political power, though not very much. I do believe that our system is broken, and that we need to start new. I do not like the idea of war over it.


In order to replace a poliitcal system, war is necessary - always and throughout human history. However, I submit that the only reason our system is broken is that we have a populace that (a) does not think, and (GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif does not care. Those that do think often are duped into thinking there is no way to make a difference - they understand enough to realize how stupid most people are. What was it Carlin said: "Just think of how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are stupider than that!"

In spite of that central problem (and the fact that politicos and priests are supremely good at exploiting it), we have a system that remains functional despite massive corruption. It was a well-designed system to begin with. And grass-roots politics still works. Don't believe me? Ross Perot actually got EVs in '92 despite withdrawing from the race. Nader has spoiled 2 elections for the Dems. The Religious Right has swung the last two elections, and it's a grass-roots movement that began outside the political arena. Is it tough? Hell yes. Is it near-impossible? Hell yes! But it's not just a matter of one vote making a difference (it doesn't). It's a matter of one LOUD vote making a difference. Grass roots movements effect change because they are visible and annoying. Because the politicians fear the impact you can have on their re-election bid. Someone who takes the trouble to write to their Rep. will also take the trouble to write letters to the editor, to speak out in their community, etc.

QUOTE
I am confused... this is more than I usually think about.


Learning to think well is the best place to start. And it's a glorious pursuit. Best of luck on that road!
-Lokmer

Posted by: bemuseme Nov 4 2004, 05:36 PM
Thanks,

Lok and Niv for the fresh air and backbone needed here. You younguns' reading this, it is time to get mad, get informed, get prepared, and get involved. Whatever that means to/for you. One smart determined individual can do much and a well organized group can change their world. Many of us oldsters saw if not participated in the ending of the Viet Nam War by what started as a small outsider movement that in time became a ground swell of diverse citizens united. Damn those were exciting times. Just remember it was only a little over half of the voting public who elected Bush. No matter the hype it was not a mandate. As the shit hits the fan which it most likely will sooner than later, more people will wake up. From what I am seeing Bush is about to piss off the whole boomer generation as well as our surviving parents when he tries to scrap the social security system. I can't speak for all my generation but I either want the system fixed or I want all the money I payed in back with interest. Any other move on G.B's part and there is gonna be hell to pay.

When ya ain't got nothin' ya got nothin' to lose...

Posted by: ChefRanden Nov 4 2004, 05:52 PM
QUOTE (Optimus Prime @ Nov 3 2004, 08:19 PM)
im eighteen, soon to be nineteen. i still have not registered.
and i refuse to. they can send me to jail, i can out last them.
they can fine me, they wwont get much. but they will not break me.
i refuse to give my self, my body, or my strength to fight for cheney and
bushes friends. i refuse to see my friends die for a lie. and i refuse to let
anyone tell me what my life is worth.

Cool, I wish I would have been this smart in my youth.

You have my ex-soldier admiration.

Posted by: ChefRanden Nov 4 2004, 05:58 PM
QUOTE (erik the awful @ Nov 3 2004, 10:29 PM)
There is much to fear.  Yet there is more to hope.  I offer this free advice:...

Cryotanknotworthy.gif

Erik, I have tears!

Posted by: ChefRanden Nov 4 2004, 06:03 PM
QUOTE (Lokmer @ Nov 4 2004, 02:52 AM)
Excellent post, Erik...

So stop whining.
-Lokmer

And a 7 fold Amen for you, Lokmer.

Posted by: Pseudonym Nov 5 2004, 02:41 AM
"The Leader of the Free World" indeed. Anyone else see the inherent contradiction in that label?

Posted by: Rameus Nov 5 2004, 06:22 AM
QUOTE
This talk that I have read about a rebellion/ civil war is disturbing. Individuals do have political power, though not very much. I do believe that our system is broken, and that we need to start new. I do not like the idea of war over it.


Nor do I.

Rameus

Posted by: redstar2000 Nov 5 2004, 07:47 AM
Two interesting posts; let's look at them in more detail.

QUOTE (erik the awful)
Study history carefully.


Excellent advice...but it's the work of a lifetime. There are excellent histories out there and an enormous amount of crap. You will have to learn to read critically -- ask yourself not only if an account "makes sense" but why does the author hold the view that he does?

Concentrate on the period 1789-2004...what happened before that is interesting but not terribly relevant to the situation we find ourselves in. (For American history, the period 1865-2004 is the time to examine closely.)

QUOTE
Listen to any one who survived the 60s. They've SEEN this shit before.


There are quite a few of us still alive...but be wary. Many of my "old comrades" (especially the "famous" ones) capitulated to the prevailing social order. Their advice is going to be very bad.

On the other hand, reading the histories of the 60s and the documents produced in that era can be quite instructive...both what to do and what not to do.

Once again, a critical approach is required.

QUOTE
Get very very clear on what you are willing to live with, what you want to live for, and what you are willing to die for.


The language is a bit dramatic, perhaps, but the advice is sound.

I would only add that unnecessary risks are to be avoided. The point is not that you should "die for the cause" but that our enemies should die for their cause.

QUOTE
Understand that rights are something that EVERYONE are born with. Rights are not GIVEN nor TAKEN AWAY. They are INFRINGED.


Here I must disagree. "Rights" do not have any kind of "metaphysical existence" -- they are created/destroyed by humans according to their material interests.

There's no such thing, for example, as a "right to get rich"...there are only human societies, some of which have declared this "right" and others which have rejected it.

Every human society has its own ideas of "human rights"...which you are free to accept or reject according to your own interests.

QUOTE
Train in the martial arts. Know how to take care of yourself.


Only if the subject interests you. Historical change is not a product of physical fighting ability...though it may save your ass now and then.

What's in your brain is far more crucial than your ability to successfully engage in combat. The pen really is mightier than the sword...provided that what you have to say really reflects material reality.

QUOTE
There is NOTHING you can't accomplish if you believe that you can.


No. There are many things in the real world that can't be done no matter how hard you believe that you can do them.

The universe does not exist for our convenience.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't try to accomplish whatever we think necessary.

But human history is woefully short on "guarantees".

QUOTE (Lokmer)
If you don't want to get drafted, you have to FUCKING VOTE.


The end of conscription in the United States did not take place through voting; it took place because (1) there was a wide-spread movement against it; and (2) even more important, large numbers of kids simply quit showing up for induction.

Change in America never comes from voting; it always comes from some form of massive popular resistance.

America has never been a "democracy"...it has always been an oligarchic republic. Prior to 1860, the oligarchy consisted primarily of slave-holders; since then, the oligarchy has consisted of capitalists.

QUOTE
Ben Franklin (I believe) said "People always get the government that they deserve."


Old Ben was quite a quipster; but I think that judgment a bit too harsh. People are not born "in original sin" -- automatically "responsible" for whatever despotism that happens to exist in the land and time of their birth.

Humans are "social animals" and learn things from childhood that are not necessarily true.

Nevertheless, we know that some people -- even very "ordinary" people -- manage to achieve a critical viewpoint of their society...usually with help from other dissidents but occasionally entirely on their own. No social order has ever managed to achieve "perfect conformity" though a fair number have attempted it...there was active resistance even in the Third Reich.

QUOTE
We live in a country of people who are afraid of freedom and willing to abdicate their power.


I would amend this to say "we live in a country of people who are afraid."

The list of their fears would probably double the length of this post -- and nearly all of them come "from the top"...things they've been told that they "should" be afraid of.

Such a people are "easy prey" for oligarchic predators, be they secular businessmen or superstitious cranks.

A fearful people will never liberate themselves; an angry people may pull it off.

QUOTE
Whether Kerry or Bush won, a military buildup is inevitable...The country WILL have an economic collapse like '29 or worse...


I agree.

QUOTE
The "Global Power Elite" that conspiracy nuts are so fascinated with will not succeed in totalitarian dominance for years, if ever...Depend on petty selfishness in the courts to save our asses here - it's worked so far.


Depending on what has worked "so far" is not necessarily the best strategy.

I'm sure you've heard the story of the guy that jumped from the top of a tall skyscraper...as he plummets past the 50th floor, he's heard to yell "so far, so good".

Since 1945, what we've seen in the U.S. is a "drift" towards fascism, with ups and downs but mostly downs. Whether this process will continue, accelerate, or even be reversed remains to be seen.

QUOTE
The PNAC Report is a roadmap for a global Pax Americana - it is not law.


Quite true. Nevertheless, something "like it" would seem to be inevitable unless the American imperialists meet with sharp reversals or even catastrophic defeats in places like Iraq, Afghanistan, and future "targets".

QUOTE
Conspiracy ravings about Freemasons, Illuminati, and Skull and Bones have less going for them in the way of hard evidence than do fundamentalist Christians.


I very much agree with this point. From what I have read of their writings, they are the "secular mirror" of the fundamentalists...instead of "Satan" being at the root of our problems, it's "secret societies".

There's about the same real evidence for both hypotheses...zero!

QUOTE
Interpersonal networking and politicking is the way the world works - get used to it. Each one of us does the same every day at work, we used to do it at church, we do it amongst our friends - building relationships that will be profitable either personally or professionally.


This is a rather bleak portrayal of human relationships...though common enough nowadays.

Perhaps the search for "profit" in relationships simply reflects the capitalist zeitgeist.

I think we could do better.

QUOTE
All that said, there are dark times ahead.


I don't see how any rational person could dispute that one.

QUOTE
We who are under 50 are spoiled fucking rotten - we have seen nothing but peace and prosperity and have no clue what politics or freedom or economics are really about.


While that may be true for many Americans, there are also many others who've seen little peace and no prosperity at all.

QUOTE
Politics has nothing to do with funding research, or sexual proclivities, or what not. Politics is a game of power.


But "power" in the abstract is meaningless. Power actually means something when it involves the division of resources.

Who gets what? And how much?

QUOTE
IF it goes to shit, we have no one to blame but our fucking lazy pathetic spoiled-rotten selves. When the people of Rome learned that they could vote themselves Bread and Circuses, the country collapsed financially - the imperialism had to grow to keep pace with the deficit. We're now in the same spot, for some of the same reasons.


That is a drastic misreading of Roman history; the Roman proletariat did not "vote themselves" either bread or circuses. (In fact, the franchise was largely useless to the Roman proletariat...as it is for us.)

The "benefits" of "bread & circuses" were granted to the Roman proletariat in exchange for their loyalty...their willingness to acquiesce to the rise of empire.

And the collapse came four centuries later...due to the costs (and resulting taxes) of keeping large armies in the field to defend the empire's conquests.

I cannot comment on "our fucking lazy pathetic spoiled-rotten selves"...it seems to be a remark made in anger, not an analysis.

QUOTE
It's your country. It's your constitution.


It's neither. Most of "my country" is owned by a corporate elite. The constitution was the product of secret meetings of American oligarchs in Philadelphia...its purpose was the protection of wealth and property from "the mob".

I think it's a piece of shit.

QUOTE
Get educated - starting with the basics - Federalist Papers, The Debate on the Constitution, Wealth of Nations, the Constitution and amendments.


Read Marx and Engels. Then read, if you like, Charles Beard on the American constitution. There are many good critical histories of the American Empire, but you will have to search for them...it helps to have access to a university library.

QUOTE
I know where my loyalties lie...


I know where mine don't...with the American Empire. It must be defeated and overthrown.

QUOTE
So stop whining.


No, go ahead and "whine" if you feel the need to. Just don't stop at that point.

Turn your fears into anger.

Posted by: spamandham Nov 5 2004, 11:24 AM
QUOTE (redstar2000 @ Nov 5 2004, 10:47 AM)
Read Marx and Engels. Then read, if you like, Charles Beard on the American constitution. There are many good critical histories of the American Empire, but you will have to search for them...it helps to have access to a university library.

Read Mises and Rothbard as well.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)