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Posted by: Rapha Nov 17 2004, 11:22 AM

Hello,

There are approximately 3 million Post Pentecostals today. I am specifically doing research on this subject. I am attempting to locate as many as I can in order to interview them for this project. If you are an ex pentecostal, please let me know.
Thank you!

Posted by: Reach Nov 17 2004, 11:29 AM

QUOTE (Rapha @ Nov 17 2004, 10:22 AM)

I am attempting to locate as many as I can in order to interview them for this project.

How much time will be required of those who wish to participate? There are several Ex-pens here.

Thanks.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 17 2004, 11:34 AM

Hello Reach,

There are less than 15 questions. Depending on how those are answered, I may have a couple more questions. It really does not take too long unless one is attempting to answer them like one would write a book.

Posted by: Reach Nov 17 2004, 11:47 AM

Rapha,

You are more than welcome to post your questions right here, if you'd like. The response may surprise you. Welcome to Ex-C! I hope we'll be able to help you with your project.

Reach
P.S. I am Post-Pentecostal.

Posted by: Libertus Nov 17 2004, 01:22 PM

Another eXPENtecostal here.

Libertus

Posted by: Rapha Nov 17 2004, 01:55 PM

Hello,

I am a little reluctant to ask the questions on the forum. I am trying to keep all the information unobstucted, but I will test it on this website and see how it goes.

Here are some of my core questions - questions that I will give to everyone. I may have some follow-ups depending upon the answers

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?
2. What made you become a Pentecostal?
3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?
4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?
5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?
6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)
7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?
8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?
9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?
10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?
11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?
12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

Thank you!

Posted by: Reach Nov 17 2004, 02:06 PM

Rapha, I took the liberty of editing your thread title to Research Help Requested, knowing that that would draw more readers. If that is not acceptable, please let me know, either here or via personal message. I'll try and make the time to answer your questions in the next couple days. I hope you will not mind brevity.

Reach

Posted by: Libertus Nov 17 2004, 02:20 PM

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

I was a fairly apathetic liberal xtian.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

Visited a church and felt comfortable and decided to stay after being scared about going to hell at another religious meeting.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

I left xtianity as a whole, but I did start to see the lack of biblical basis for a lot of pentecostal doctrine before my deconversion.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

A bit, I suppose. Not generally more bitter than toward to concept of xtianity as a whole.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

Not bitter, but my former Pastor's refusal to answer a question that I asked did play a part in my increased focus in the bible itself, which is a big part of what lead to my deconversion. She was wrong, but I don't harbor any bitterness towards her, though I think that she has some major issues.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

Agnostic Atheist

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

They're scary, funny and saddening all at once. They're nuts.

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

Even if you want to choose to be xtian, at least look at what you're getting into before doing it, but in general most people who are getting into pentecostalism are too far sucked in before they do. I don't think that people really <i>think</i> about becoming a pentecostal.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

It is NOT.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

Been there, done that. It's a deluded and wishful thing that people either consciously fake to appear more religious or sub-consciously do to feel closer to god in accordance to what they are taught. As for me, it was a sub-conscious behavior.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

I am more free in my thinking and I don't participate in silly rituals in order to make myself feel better.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

Well, that would depend on who they are I suppose. It would either have to be "Stop the bullshit" or "Think about the stuff that you are saying. Really think about it."

Rapha,

I hope this helps.

Libertus

Posted by: Rapha Nov 17 2004, 05:13 PM

Reach,

Thank you very much for the rename.

Libertus,

Thank you for your kindness in answering the questions.

Posted by: Reach Nov 18 2004, 08:01 AM

QUOTE (Rapha @ Nov 17 2004, 12:55 PM)

Here are some of my core questions - questions that I will give to everyone.

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?
Evangelical Christian, non-denominational Protestant

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?
My mother made the decision for the entire family, insofar as she changed churches and moved the entire family to the new church. I was 14 or 15 at the time.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?
Lack of integrity in church leadership. Secondly, the attempt to silence women (we had a divorced, female pastor?!?) who were seen as "troublesome," for asking the wrong questions, was not a main reason for my leaving, but at 18-19 years old, I definitely made note of this.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?
No, not at all. Like many, I believed that the Pentecostal experience and what it encompassed allowed us to feel something, to intimately know the presence of God. I feel loss and there is grief over that, but I cannot personally afford the luxury of bitterness. Grief is costly enough.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?
No, but I acknowledge the fact that I despise the likes of TBN and its marketing techniques, extracting millions of dollars from the ignorant or the less educated or the impoverished masses, for personal gain. I should note that I spent several years studying deception in the western church and its doctrines and that I see American Christianity™ as the most despicable of all, especially its health and wealth prosperity gospel, promoted by the TBN monster.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time?
Atheist

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?
I hate deception. One pet peeve is the "personal words" people are given and all the Christian psychobabble. If God were real to all these folks, why is the psychology section of the Christian bookstores the largest and fastest growing and... um... the biggest money maker in printed form?

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?
Perhaps, I'd tell my friend about my getting a "personal word" which directed me to marry someone and how hard it was to get out of that marriage later. Certainly, I would list off the deceptive doctrines spewing forth from the pentecostal and/or charismatic church.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God's Word?
I formerly leaned towards inerrancy of the King James (for the English speaking world, believing that other languages would have their own inerrant version) because to do otherwise would be to question the omnipotence of God who could not preserve his word as he promised. What do I believe now? I don't believe in inerrancy. The truth is that I care a lot less than I believe anything. I simply don't know. Some of it could be true but some of "Goldilocks and the Three Bears" is true also. If God is the Great Communicator, the inventor of communication, the architect of the human body that is capable of such an activity, he is pitifully poor at communicating himself and he has left us, in his holy book, a virtual minefield to navigate, rather than a practical guide for daily living and lessons on how to get through life and get the most out of it. How pointless!

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?
Speaking in any language known to man. I believe all else is gibberish.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?
Interesting question. I did not choose atheism because of any benefits. I landed here when I came to the realization that God with his attendant Christianity were just a mirage, an "emperor with no clothes." One benefit is that I am free from the shackles of being told what to believe and am free to search and find any truth I can lay hold of. It is my pursuit of truth, my love for truth, that got me into this "mess" to begin with.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?
I don't know. If he loves his God and his flock, he will study and show himself worthy of their trust. If he will study, he may find his way out of the trap. It might cost him plenty.

All the best, Rapha; I wish you well.
Reach

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 10:07 AM

Reach,

Thank you for answering the questions.

Posted by: Freespirit Nov 18 2004, 10:21 AM

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal? I started out in Pentecostal churches as a child.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal? That's the church my parents sent me to and so it was all that I was exposed to.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism? I read the Bible through without suppressing my doubts and questions. All of the lies, inconsistencies and pure evil became much more clear when reading the Bible this way.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism? Unfortunately yes. I can't help but be bitter when I can see what it is still doing to my family and friends.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?
No, no one in particular.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

Agnostic Atheist

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today? I think they are harmful to society and I avoid them completely.

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal? I would suggest that they do an indepth study of the Bible. If they glazed over the lies and inconsistencies, then I'd point them out for them.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?
I believe the Bible is pure mythology and is not the word of any god.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"? I used to consider it message given to those blessed by God, now I realize it was gibberish.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life? Life makes more sense when you cut out the superstition and the supernatural.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could? I don't know. If they've blinded themselves enough to really believe what they're teaching, then what can I say?

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 10:21 AM

Libertus,

What you have given to me so far is very helpful. If possible, I would like to ask some follow-up questions:

1. You said that one of the reasons that started your trek out of Christianity as a whole was that you started to see "...the lack of biblical basis for a lot of pentecostal doctrine before [your] deconversion". Would you mind expanding on this some more?

2. You shared that you may be somewhat bitter towards Christianity/Pentecostalism. Could you describe what you are specifically bitter about?

3. You shared that a former Pastor refused to answer a specific question that you had asked. What question was that?

4. You shared that you were now free in your thinking and you "don't participate in silly rituals in order to make [yourself] feel better". Did the pastor/church make you feel bad about yourself or did you feel bad about yourself apart from the church?

5. You shared that the counsel that you would give a Pentecostal Pastor today would be, "...to be "Stop the bullshit" or "Think about the stuff that you are saying. Really think about it." What exactly do you mean?

Thanks again,

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 10:25 AM

Freespirit,

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 10:36 AM

Reach,

Thanks again for answering my core questions. If you don't mind, I would like to ask some follow-up questions:

1. You said that one of the reasons that you left Pentecostalism was the "Lack of integrity in church leadership" What exactly do you mean by this statement? And do you have one or two examples you could share?

2. You also gave a second reason that led you out of Pentecostalism, "Secondly, the attempt to silence women (we had a divorced, female pastor?!?) who were seen as "troublesome," for asking the wrong questions..." Could you please explain what you mean by this statement?

3. You said, "I feel loss...". Please explain what kind of loss you feel?

4. You said that "I hate deception. One pet peeve is the "personal words" people are given...". From reading your other answers, you obviously were given a personal word by someone. Was this someone a Pastor/Elder or was it a member in the church?

5. You said, "Certainly, I would list off the deceptive doctrines spewing forth from the pentecostal and/or charismatic church." Could you share a few of these deceptive doctrines?

Again, thank you for what you have already shared. It is very helpful.

Posted by: Diogenes Nov 18 2004, 10:59 AM

I'll take a shot

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

Raised Roman Catholic, attended parochial schools, ambivalent about religion beyond cultural/family issues.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

Influence of older brother, college campus church as a junior in college.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

Found a different flavor of xianity that seemed more compatible as an adult (reformed). Saw much fakery and hypocrisy and immaturity in pentecostal circles.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

Yes, it contributed to my making some poor (or let's say less-than-optimal) decisions in life.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

Yes, the fab 5 of the Discipleship/Shepherding movement: Mumford, Simpson, Baxter, Basham, Prince. Some of them have gone on to their 'eternal rewards' I guess.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

Agnostic, with a bent towards Taoist philosophy.

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

I would avoid them, as they present a danger to rational and logical and moral thinking and living, and I was successful in getting my children removed from one, by convincing my ex to go to a more mainstream church (this was before my deconversion).

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

I would not attempt to sway them one way or another, however I would anticipate that it would become an obstruction to our friendship, knowing the way that pentecostals think and act, and that they would likely aggressively try to assert their views and dismiss mine.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

It is the writings of ancient men about their experiences with the idea of god. Little of it is trustworthy in terms of historical accuracy, authorship, etc. Much of it is borrowed from other cultures.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

Was never comfortable with it, even when I pretended to do it. In every case that I observed, it was never 'biblical', that is, a foreign interpretable language, as it supposedly was in the bible. I believe it is a purely natural function, a detachment of our verbal function from the rational part of the mind. It is noise, pure gibberish, like baby talk. (Please note I didn't blaspheme the H.S. here - whew, thanks!)

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

There has been less change than I expected. I still strive to be a great father, hard worker, good friend, caring son, etc. I just don't need to waste time with worship and services and I plan to use some of the former tithe money to give to charity, rather than enriching some fat-cat preacher's stock portfolio. Also, I no longer have the delusions of grandeur that I used to - all that stuff about having some great heavenly calling is crap. I'm just a guy, and I've come to appreciate that and accept myself more. Also, I no longer judge people according to whether they're 'saved' or not or need to be preached to or not. I am truly pleased I have taken this turn.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

Be careful. People have entrusted you with a significant portion of their lives. Don't believe you have a hotline to heaven and can tell people what to do as god's messenger. Counsel people according to tried and true rational principles. Have integrity. Notice, I'm not saying 'Walk away'. That's your choice. Quoting my favorite poet (Yeats): "Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 11:10 AM

Hello Freespirit,

Thank you so much for answering my core questions. If you could take the time, I would like to have you answer some follow-up question:

You said that you were still bitter and then mentioned your family. Are you bitter because they are still Pentecostals, or are you bitter because they are following bad advice, or because they are following Pentecostal doctrines?

Thanks again...

Posted by: John Doe Nov 18 2004, 12:31 PM

Hi Ralpha, here's my response.

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

- None. I started going to a pentecostal church as a kid. I was brought up as one.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

- My parents

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

- Well it wasn't so much that I left Pentecostalism, I left Christianity entirely.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

- Not really. It actually made me realize how silly Christianity (and religion) is as a whole.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

- Not bitter, really. My old pastor is actually a pretty nice guy, I just don't agree with his beliefs.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

- Negative atheist (also referred to as agnostic atheist)

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

- Basically a bunch of religious kooks that are totally out of touch with reality

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

- I can't stop anyone from doing what they are commited to doing, but I would give that person my own experiences so they at least have a critical opposing viewpoint of what they are getting themselves into

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

- I do not believe the Bible is god inspried. People claim they are inspired by god all the time (i.e. other religions) so someone claiming they are god inspired is not unique to Christianity. And not suprisingly, none of these religions (including Christianity) can prove or even explain what the state of being god-inspired actually is. Is it a dream? Talking to a burning bush? Having a conversation with a talking animal? A trance? Nobody knows, and nobody could ever prove it.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

- Speaking in tongues is nonesense. Basically people are speaking gibberish, and in a highly emotionally charged and suggestive state (loud music, hand clapping, people yelling) believe they are "speaking in tongues". For as long as I was a pentecostal I could never do it, and due to pressure I finally resorted to faking it a couple times so people wouldn't think I didn't have the holy spirit.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

- I don't have the stress and depression associated that comes with anchoring my whole life on "faith". Since faith requires some 3rd person to tell me what the "truth" is, I can never really be sure if what I believe is truth because so many people of faith have conflicting versions of the "truth" and obviously all of them can't be right. If I can't empirically verify God or the "right" religion myself (and I should be able to according to how most religions define "god"), then I am under no obligation to believe what they say is true. Using reason instead of faith allows me to arrive at truths myself and with confidence. Now if someone tells me they have the truth and can't substantiate their claim, I am free to not believe them, without being threatened with eternal torture in a place called hell if I choose not to believe what they say.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

- There would be no point to this. There is nothing to be gained by trying to counsel a person of faith, since faith and reason are two completely different methods that attempt to bring a person to truth. To me, faith is believing something is absolutely true when the probability of it being true is very low, where reason is believing something is most likely true (or absolutely true) when the probability of it being true is high.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 12:48 PM

Diogenes and John Doe,

Thank you very much for answering my questions. I may have some follow-ups here soon.

Posted by: Loren Nov 18 2004, 03:36 PM

Hi, Rapha.

I'm not an ex-Pentecostal, but I sure have enjoyed reading this thread. I'd like to thank you for being so courteous and respectful to our members. I hope you've found some of what you were looking for. Which brings me to this: Would you mind perhaps telling us a little about the nature of your project? I must admit I'm very curious.

Are you perhaps associated with Rapha Ministries?

Posted by: Rapha Nov 18 2004, 04:23 PM

Hello Loren,

I am not associated with Rapha Ministries. I am aware of them, and have toured their facilities.

I have more than one goal here. I am writing a book on Post Pentecostalism. I hope to open the hearts of some Pentecostals to the problems that are taking place in Pentecostal churches, and I hope to help Pentecostal pastors re-evalutate some unhealthy practices. The problems are real. The people who are hurt are real. However, no one seems to be addressing the abuses very clearly. In fact, I would suspect that many in the Pentecostal movement merely look at people who have left the fold as apostates, not realizing that some Pentecostal churches may have helped usher them right out of the church.

Thanks for asking...

Posted by: Loren Nov 18 2004, 04:51 PM

Thank you, Rapha.

Over the centuries, many reforms and changes have occurred in Christianity, doctrine, attitudes, and so on, and these changes have almost always been opposed by the orthodoxy. Also, it seldom takes place as a result of attacks from outside. It's almost axiomatic that reform must take place from within. Reform from within is often one of the most difficult of positions to take, as there is no safe place to which to retreat.

Thank you for your heart for those who suffer, and for acting on it in an understanding and responsible way.

Good luck.

Posted by: Reach Nov 19 2004, 11:18 AM

QUOTE (Rapha @ Nov 18 2004, 09:36 AM)

Reach,

1. You said that one of the reasons that you left Pentecostalism...

Rapha,

It will probably be a couple days before I will be able to answer your second set of questions (Monday or Tuesday, I think), but a question of my own comes to mind.

Could you please define Pentecostalism, briefly, so I can frame my answers within the same context? I'm not sure if you are referring to the entire movement, as begun at the Azusa Street revival or if you are using a set of doctrines or something of a more generalized nature, such as, what Pentecostals are typically known for. I'm comfortable with any of these.

Thanks for your most gracious behavior on this forum. It is a rarity. I appreciate you being here.

Reach

Posted by: Rapha Nov 19 2004, 11:56 AM

Hello Reach,

I am defining Pentecostalism in it's classic designation, that is, one who believes that the Initial Evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues.

...also, thank you for the kind words...

Posted by: Rapha Nov 19 2004, 03:27 PM

Diogenes

Here are a few follow-up questions, if you don't mind:

1. You said that you had "Saw much fakery and hypocrisy and immaturity in pentecostal circles". Could you give me a few examples?

2. You mentioned that you had experienced some bitterness, and added, "Yes, it contributed to my making some poor (or let's say less-than-optimal) decisions in life." Do you have a few examples that you could share?

3. When I asked "Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?", you responded, "Yes, the fab 5 of the Discipleship/Shepherding movement: Mumford, Simpson, Baxter, Basham, Prince. Some of them have gone on to their 'eternal rewards' I guess." Were all the Pentecostals you were associated with involved with the Shepherding Movement?

Thanks

Posted by: ericf Nov 19 2004, 05:02 PM

I'm post pentecostal so I'll throw in my 2 cents. You can also PM me if you have further questions or want elaboration. I am going to try and read this thread again in the near future... but school work is keeping me from being very active here and I might miss any responses.

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

A little bit of everything. Mostly Catholic but my mother left the church to actively seek something more rewarding spiritually. After jumping through several baptismal pools, I landed in an Assemblies of God church.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

Besides living at church (practically) and only being allowed to hang out with friends who went to the church -- both of which played some role I am sure -- I REALLY wanted to believe and it was an atmosphere where I was able to suspend my disbelief. I wanted to believe and I wanted to be saved.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

I woke up one day and realized that I didn't believe any of it. I had gone through a period of doubt but thought I was seeing the light at the end of the tunnel -- I was... but it wasn't the light I expected. But really, I just couldn't pretend to myself that I believed anymore. My mind completely rejected the ideas the church held as truth. Of course, I had to pretend for everyone else for many years after -- as I lived at home with a mother who was very serious about ensuing her children weren't going to hell.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

The pentecostal movement played a large role in my life. Not all of that role was good. There are many things that I could consider negative. But I don't really look at it like that. I see pentecostalism as the fire that forged the man I am today. Without the burning desire for spiritual truth, I might have just been a mildly unsatisfied apathetic Christian for the rest of my life.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

If I wanted to be bitter, I could think of hundreds of reasons to. My pastor pulling a knife on me... my church severely frowning on dating... another pastor who refuses to visit people in the hospital. I could be bitter but I'm not. I find it mildly amusing. The Pentecostal movement is like a big dysfunctional family... and its leaders are the drunken and abusive father that everyone makes excuses for.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

Non-theistic Zen Buddhist most of the time. But my roots are Erisian, which is also highly Buddhist but accepts gods and goddesses when it amuses the people involved to accept them.

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

Fun to visit but I wouldn't want to live there. They actually are very sad and angry places. I prefer to not even visit if I can avoid it.

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

Forget counsel, I would dose them with a large amount of LSD or shrooms and then force them to endure the service while tripping. They would not join because the churches are very unhappy and scary places when you aren't on the same trip as everyone else. If they still wanted to join, then I would let them do what they wanted. It is their brain.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

If there is a God... the bible is the words of anything but him. It is a disgusting mismash of horror and platitudes. I would consider Through the Looking Glass as a more spiritually inspiring work. Or the great unmentionable work ofJames Joyce. That tomb which is impossible to read but also impossible to put down. { For those who are confused, I am talking about Ulysses} Or how about Stranger in a Strange Land ? ... that would be a wiser more enlightening book.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

Speaking in tounges, glossolalia is the technical term, is nothing more than an Altered State of Consciousness (ASC). It is as easily induced at church as it is at a music festival when you get lost in the music. Having some experience with ASC's, I can assure you it is nothing special. Although it was the experience of tounges that made me interesting in how to alter my own consciousness. Well, that and meditation... the mind is a wonderful thing.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

I am happy. Truly and completely happy. I know it is hard for some people to believe but I am just so damn happy all the time. I could die as I write this sentence and be satisfied with my life.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

It's okay. You didn't know what you were doing. You were just as lost as the rest of us. Here, have a brownie.

EDIT: I'm just kidding about dosing someone with LSD or shrooms (I just realized you wouldn't know me well enough to be sure of that). I would let a person do what they wanted. It is their brain. I have many friends and family in Pentecostal churches.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 22 2004, 01:21 PM

ericf,

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer the questions. I may have some follow-ups later.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 26 2004, 09:10 AM

John Doe,

Here are a few follow-up questions:

1. I asked, "Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism? " and you said, "Not really. It actually made me realize how silly Christianity (and religion) is as a whole." Could you give me a few examples of what you mean by this?

2. I asked, "Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?" You responded by saying, "Not bitter, really. My old pastor is actually a pretty nice guy, I just don't agree with his beliefs." What belief's specifically did you disagree with?

3. I asked, "What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?" and you said, "I don't have the stress and depression associated that comes with anchoring my whole life on "faith"." This is very interesesting. Could you please explain what you mean by the "stress" and "depression" cycle that Pentecostalism caused?

Thank you

Posted by: spidermonkey Nov 26 2004, 11:00 AM

I had some fun with these questions. Hahaha.

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

I believed, but didn't attend church regularly.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

My dad found jeebus when I was 13. Church attendance became mandatory when staying with him (my parents divorced around that time) I was a huge reject at school and was suicidal, and I needed something to give me purpose. I thought that the pentecult would help me, but obviously I thought wrong.

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

The hypocrisy and bigotry sucked like you wouldn't believe. Also, I found it strange that I followed the word of ghod, but instead of being filled with love and hope like the pastor said I would, I was filled with shame and depression.

After my initial anger cooled off, I found logical reasons to discard my beliefs. My grandma's death is what destroyed the last shreds of my faith. She was christian, although not a penteculter, and I couldn't imagine her burning in hell for all eternity just because she didn't babble in tongues.

There's a whole heap of other stuff about pentecultalism that sucked, but these are the big ones.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

Yes, although not as much as I was four years ago when I first left the cult. Not only did I miss out when I was a penteculter, but leaving the cult sucked ass. All of my xtian "friends" left me, and because I was never allowed to express my emotions, I was in a state of nervous collapse for ghod knows how long. I think I may have suffered a nervous breakdown. Then I started drinking heavily.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

If you'd consider my father a pentecult leader, then yes. I resent him for the brainwashing I endured as his hands.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

I do not believe in christianity. I do not believe in a supreme being, although I have not discounted the idea of supernatural forces of any kind at this time.

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

Some are worse than others. However, I think that the pentecult doctrine is dangerous and does more harm than good. Beneath the joyful exterior of exuberant worship and sermons is something much more sinister.

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

I'd encourage that friend to seek out other, less annoying and culty forms of christianity. Although I do not believe in christianity, I only have negative feelings toward certain denominational doctrines - pentecultalism being one of those.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

I don't believe in ghod, so obviously I don't believe it's ghod's inspired word in any part. I also believe that it is NOT meant to be taken literally AT ALL.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

It sounds like gibberish and it comes out freely. It happens after spending quite a bit of time in prayer, worship, or meditation. I think it's bullshit.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

I'm free to make my own choices instead of basically having to ask ghod for direction every time I wipe my ass. I can express my emotions without fear, which is a good thing considering how I'm wound way too tight. I'm free of the guilt and shame that haunted me when I was a penteculter.

I can also do lots of things that were off limits to me previously, such as having lots of hot monkey sex and drinking alcohol.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

Stop scaring people into the faith by talking about the end times and hell nonstop. Being terrified of hell is NOT the same as wanting to go to heaven. People who spend so much time loving ghod that they have no love left over for other people suck at life. Don't base your sermons on feelings and false research - you WILL be found out. If you want to go on and on about how abortion is so horrible, why don't you help to make life more pleasant for those of us who are already born?

Posted by: Reach Nov 26 2004, 01:16 PM

QUOTE (Rapha @ Nov 18 2004, 09:36 AM)

Reach,

Thanks again for answering my core questions. If you don't mind, I would like to ask some follow-up questions:

1. You said that one of the reasons that you left Pentecostalism was the "Lack of integrity in church leadership" What exactly do you mean by this statement? And do you have one or two examples you could share?

I see that many of today's most prominent leaders come from Pentecostal backgrounds and I also can't miss seeing a growing trend towards the emotional and highly subjective experiencing of God and away from the older disciplines of personal prayer and diligent Bible study. I see a severe lack of discernment and wisdom in many of the leadership as they themselves are carried about by every wind of doctrine.

One example: Founder and senior pastor of Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, California, and writer Roberts Liardon who stepped down from ministry (for a mere three months) after admitting to 'moral failure.' Liardon is the author of 'God's Generals,' a history of Pentecostal pioneers. He founded Spirit Life Bible College, and his Roberts Liardon Ministries has offices in England, South Africa and the Philippines.
The short story can be found in the following two brief sources: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/liardon.html http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/liardon2.html

An interesting focus of God's Generals is the moral failure of other 'giants' in Pentecostalism. In all fairness I will note that Liardon is quite compassionate and merciful in the conclusions he draws about others, but did he somehow realize that his days were numbered until he was found out? Lack of integrity does not need defining for you, Rapha. Liardon knew his denomination stood squarely against practicing homosexuality and promiscuity, yet he was sexually involved with members of his congregation.

Further examples are not necessary, although I could spend hours listing them for you. The salaries of mega-church staffs and televangelists. Benny Hinn. Need I say more?

2. You also gave a second reason that led you out of Pentecostalism, "Secondly, the attempt to silence women (we had a divorced, female pastor?!?) who were seen as "troublesome," for asking the wrong questions..." Could you please explain what you mean by this statement?

There was an attempt to silence women by making use of a Bill Gotthard teaching that a man was "the woman's covering," as in a "priest of the home" scenario. The woman, without a husband present, or lacking one altogether, was seen as exposed and ill-equipped to speak in public settings. She was further seen as "out of order" if she dared ask questions that might be seen as a veiled attack against the modus operandi. She has often been accused of having (or being) a "Jezebel spirit" for daring to question anyone in authority. There continues to be many attempts to pigeon-hole women into the Stepford wife mindset. I believe this dishonors women, leaves them devalued and underserved. In the worst cases, they are abused. This leaves them in a very poor position to serve as hurting people hurt people, don't they? This kind of thinking clearly stands in support of the historically widespread continuation of the objectification of women. From the Gospels it is evident that Jesus Christ did not teach this. Surely, Christian women do not look lightly on God-ordained authorities, but are those authorities absolute?

3. You said, "I feel loss...". Please explain what kind of loss you feel?

~There is the loss of several things. For one thing, it was a comfort to think that the matter of my own personal eternity was settled. I should mention, however, that the very structure that built for me this sense of security did not allow me the same peace regarding the eternity of others, "outside the fold," so this was a mixed bag.
~I enjoyed what I perceived as a relationship with God. I loved him. I lived for Jesus Christ, gave him everything I had, everything I was, and I devoted my life to ministry.
~I used to have "answers" for my children and now I have more questions than answers.
~I liked the interconnected, familial concept of an eternal universal, family.
~More than anything in life, I have always loved truth, and sought it with a zealous, focused passion. There is loss because I went for the truth with all that I had, and in the very pursuit of truth, I lost that which I had. The Emperor With No Clothes.

4. You said that "I hate deception. One pet peeve is the "personal words" people are given...". From reading your other answers, you obviously were given a personal word by someone. Was this someone a Pastor/Elder or was it a member in the church?

All the above, numerous times, over the years. I'm open to elaboration on this subject if you'd like.

5. You said, "Certainly, I would list off the deceptive doctrines spewing forth from the pentecostal and/or charismatic church." Could you share a few of these deceptive doctrines?

The fairly new American or western Christian doctrines of health and wealth. On healing, the teaching is that "a Christian is supposed to walk in divine health." This is taught by T.D.Jakes, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Casey Treat and Joyce Meyer, just to name a few. If one does not enjoy total health, one has unresolved issues with unforgiveness, unbelief or bitterness. Furthermore, Copeland, to name one individual, teaches that healing and good health are part of the new covenant, that Christ paid for our healing on the Cross, that no one is supposed to be sick. Casey Treat was teaching basically the same thing and in the last few months, just found out that he has hepatitis and is now undergoing chemotherapy treatment, after saying for years that his family "never needed to go to the doctor," but simply relied on God to provide as promised... divine health.

The teaching on wealth and prosperity is so despicable that I'm sure it has not missed your notice. And quoting Kenneth Hagin (who is reiterated by the Copeland and Dollar camp), "We are little gods." The teaching goes that we deserve to live as the sons of a King, now, on earth. Is this not so shallow that Christians ought to be appalled at the very notion? Does this not contrast to the teachings of Paul in regards to dying to self? What about the Servanthood of Christ, which is central to the Christian faith?

On deceptive doctrines, what about the Kingdom Now movement or the Latter Day Rain movement, from which emerged the teachings on the "Manifested Sons of God," that state we can attain perfection (not to be confused with completion) in this life on earth? "The Manifested Sons of God teachings are perhaps the most definitive among Kingdom Now doctrines. They have all the elements of classical dominion theory: immortalization, restoration of the offices of apostles and prophets, absolute authoritarianism, attainment of godhood - you name it, the Manifested Sons of God have it." http://www.apologeticsindex.org/l18.html

What I see, viewing the western Christian landscape, and especially that of America, is mostly of an insular nature, the love of money, materialism, the love of ease and entertainment, apathy towards those who are perceived as going to their damnation in hell, addiction to the same "vices" as "the lost," namely drugs, alcohol, sex and pornography. The western church has lost its salt and is ineffective in raising standards, moral or otherwise, in the secular world, nor contributing anything of value that I am aware of.

My apologies, Rapha, for being later than promised on this response.
Reach

This thread would be viewed by more people if it was placed in the Debates Forum. With your permission, I'll move it there.

Posted by: John Doe Nov 26 2004, 02:44 PM

Rapha,

To answer your questions:

QUOTE

1. I asked, "Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism? " and you said, "Not really. It actually made me realize how silly Christianity (and religion) is as a whole." Could you give me a few examples of what you mean by this?

By this I mean while sitting in church and observing everyone speaking in tongues (for example) it just seemed silly to me. But the main example I can give you, is after reading the Bible (especially the OT), it seemed to me that this god that was being written about was a human male, nothing more. Aside from having omni-max properties, there isn't anything really remarkable about this god. God is referred to as a male, has a male personality, is quick to judge, quick to anger, a warrior, jealous, wrathful, vengeful, tribal and primitive. To me, these characteristics are that of a domineering human male in the writer(s) time and place in human history, not of an asexual spirit-being that is advanced and superior to all humans in every way. My belief is that the writer(s) of the OT were describing their own primitive idea of the ultimate male leader, who would help them defeat their enemies and bring justice, hope and purpose to their lives. What they wanted was their own king, and that is what they created, thereby projecting him onto the unknowable....god. And so I had to ask myself, how anyone can confuse this petty male tribal warlord with the most intelligent, powerful force in the universe, and my creator?

The fact that so many other religions exist, and that each culture has/had their own ideas of god(s) and spirituality was enough to convince me that most likely nobody really knows anything about god (if it even exists). Everyone is just guessing, calling it The Truth ™ and having faith they are right.

QUOTE

2. I asked, "Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?" You responded by saying, "Not bitter, really. My old pastor is actually a pretty nice guy, I just don't agree with his beliefs." What belief's specifically did you disagree with?

I guess what I wrote above more or less answers this.

QUOTE

3. I asked, "What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?" and you said, "I don't have the stress and depression associated that comes with anchoring my whole life on "faith"." This is very interesesting. Could you please explain what you mean by the "stress" and "depression" cycle that Pentecostalism caused?

Well for example, the idea of hell always caused me stress and depression. Not even so much for myself, but if I knew someone who died, especially someone close, and I knew they were not a Christian I would get deeply depressed over this because I firmly believed they were being tortured and burned alive....for eternity. This also changed my feelings of God. When I was younger I always thought of God as loving and kind and compassionate. But one day my gradmother died, and that was the first time I really thought about what hell really meant because I knew she was not a Christian. We were very close and I loved her very much, so the thought of her being tortured so violently and brutally forever made me sick. I mean it literally made me physically ill. Everyone in my chruch told me it was her choice to end up in hell, but it didn't excuse the fact that she was basically a good person and very sweet and kind, and any god that would allow a place like hell for humans to go to in the first place was unexcusable. So, even though I still believed in god, I wasn't sure I loved him after that. Why would he allow me, who he supposedly loved, to carry the pain of having such knowledge about my non-Christian loved ones burning in hell, not to mention their own unbearable pain of being there themselves? It just seemed like an awful, miserable situation for both non-Christians and Christians alike, since I am sure all of us have friends or relatives that are not Christians. But then as I grew older I feared I was going to be thrown in hell myself for thinking God was mean and nasty for sending anyone there. I could understand god not letting them into heaven, but why not just stamp them out of existence, why toruture them? This was a very big problem for me all the years I was a Christian. There was also stress of always trying to be someone who I was not around fellow pentecostals and Christians. I pretended to be slain with the holy spirit even though I never felt it, I pretended to feel happy about going to heaven even though I couldn't knowing so many others were going to hell, I pretended I believed the pentecostals were really the "true believers" even though all other denominations claimed they were the true believers and we were heretics, I pretended to believe in Jesus even though I wasn't sure I did, I pretended to love god even though I wasn't sure I could. I felt like the whole thing was a sham and that was very depressing.

Posted by: Rapha Nov 30 2004, 12:36 PM

Reach and John Doe,

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all my questions.

Posted by: Joe1980 Dec 13 2004, 07:30 AM

QUOTE (Rapha @ Nov 17 2004, 04:55 PM)

I hope you're still taking questionaires!

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

Catholic. Unfortunately, I don't recall any of my time in Catholicism. I was born in 1980 and left the Catholic Chuch in 1982 (parents decision, obviously). But, because I was baptized Catholic as a baby, I am forever Catholic according to my grandmother.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

I was introduced to it at a very young age and going to a Pentecostal church was mandated by my parents. I became a born-again christian at the age of about 4 or 5....about the time they make you feel guilty and you need to accept Jesus into your heart. Because, as we all know, a 4 year old must be born again to relinquish his prior evil ways...

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

Finally opened my mind and began thinking for myself. In Pentecostal (First Assemblies of God) churches, this is considered evil. To think for yourself is to think of the flesh which ultimately lands you at the right-hand of satan.

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

Yes. I do NOT hate the people, or the church. But I do take offense to the mind-molestion I endured throughout the first 16 years of my childhood. I am now 24, and I still feel guilty when I think for myself. It will take years before my mind is completely free from the bondage. My blood boils and my body temperature rises when I think or talk about my past experiences.

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

No. All the pastors we had were actually nice people. The Youth Pastor was a really cool guy and I did actually like him. To this day I'll e-mail him to see how he's doing and stuff. Any hostility would have to be towards the "church elders" or most of the people I came in contact with on Sunday morning and night, Wednesday and Friday nights.

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

I consider myself a Free Thinker/Agnostic. I am in no way Atheist or believe there is a specific god. I am very open minded at the present time. One thing I would like to add; since I left christianity I feel like a better person. I am no longer judgemental towards non-christians/gays/secular/worldly people. I feel all-in-all nicer

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

I haven't attended a Pentecostal church service in 7 years. I don't know what's up with them today. Although, I do hope their insatiable need for a REVIVAL IN THE CHURCH has been quenched.....I was so sick of hearing about that.

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

I would tell them my story. If that doesn't change their mind, they are obviously the kind of person who has to learn things on their own.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

I used to believe it was God's inspired Word. Then I started to think....Is it the truth just because I happened to grow up in an area where Christianity prevailed? What if I was born in India? I would be taught that Hinduism is the way, the truth, the light.

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?

I have always interpreted that to be (in terms of the Christian faith and the Book of Acts...I think...I'm a little rusty in my books of the bible) the gift of learning to speak other languages. Someone who possesses the intelligence to learn many languages of the world with little or no effort. This would then help them spread the word of god to those around the world. This, to me, made more sense than uttering the blabber of "gundala shundala minyata pinyata". The first scenario made more logical sense to me.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

In my heart I feel very free and happy I don't have this sense of god staring down in absolute disgrace over me. EVERY little decision of my life was based on "what would jesus do". I feel like I have a brain for the first time in my life. Those who weren't associated with the Pentecostal denomination do not understand what it is like. It's like a claw is gripping your brain with every thought and/or action. Pentecostalism is a parasite that burrows deep into your mind and controls your life. Very cult-like. It's sickening.

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

I wouldn't. It's not my place. Let them do their thing. Like I said, I'm an open-minded person. If people want to be associated with this cult, let them be

Posted by: Reach Dec 13 2004, 07:56 AM

QUOTE (Joe1980 @ Dec 13 2004, 07:30 AM)

...I became a born-again christian at the age of about 4 or 5....about the time they make you feel guilty and you need to accept Jesus into your heart. Because, as we all know, a 4 year old must be born again to relinquish his prior evil ways...

...But I do take offense to the mind-molestion I endured throughout the first 16 years of my childhood. I am now 24, and I still feel guilty when I think for myself. It will take years before my mind is completely free from the bondage. My blood boils and my body temperature rises when I think or talk about my past experiences.

Mind-molestation. Interesting choice of words, Joe. Regarding mind-molestion, you might be interested in this excellent post Loren wrote earlier this year. He uses the term neurological sabotage. His post is well worth the read and I think you will find it particularly meaningful, personally.

I should note that when Lokmer and I began the thread that the following is pulled from, I was a Christian, but I could never accept, nor warp my mind enough to accommodate the doctrine of hell.

QUOTE (Loren Apr 12 2004 @ 02:08 PM)

This is really to Nightbreeze, but there were some other things I wanted to address quickly, first.

Deep thanks to Reach and Lokmer for this thread and the way you two are going about it! The conjoining of two minds of differing perspectives is exactly the kind of action needed to start healing these grievous wounds. Obviously, two thousand years of leaving it in the hands of the clergy has certainly not healed a god damned thing. I love that you took it into your own hands.

Thanks also to all those who contributed excellent information, particularly channelcat.

FF, I agree completely that the eternal damnation doctrine is the gun to the heads of the population. As was mentioned, this is not exactly something Jesus actually taught. I do think that without it, there is no need for salvation in Jesus as current Christian doctrine defines it.
However, in looking at the teachings of Jesus, especially in non canonical works like the Gospel of Thomas, I tend to see the very same flavor of teaching present in works like the Tao Te Ching. Taken from such a perspective, I could easily put a more workable alternate slant on the "Hell" teachings as being about the kind of hell we all create for ourselves in this life as a result of our actions. In that sense, salvation becomes the action of living and doing as closely as possible to the way Jesus did for the same reasons, and Jesus becomes the principle or current of right action working within a person.
The need to "accept" Jesus as "savior" turns from an act of legalistic parroting of a magic mantra into a life-changing redirection of actions and motives which, if followed, is pretty much guaranteed to produce better and happier results than a life of selfishness.
In that sense, I could see an actual salvation from hell in Jesus, but it's a far cry from what most Christians think it is. Also, it doesn't require anyone to be of any particular religion at all, just that they make an effort to live rightly.
After all I've been through, and all I've read on the subject, it's my very strong opinion that some form of the above is more like what most of the original Christians taught.
Or I could be completely wrong. Just my opinion at this point. I definitely agree with all that whatever the original was, it got hyjacked early by rotten bastards for base political purposes to great and horrific effect.

Nightbreeze, what can I say? The things you've expressed just tear my heart. Normally, I would tackle the issue with cognitive/doctrinal stuff, but you already have all that and you're still in a hell of your own because of what's been done to you. Clearly, cognitive/doctrinal is not what you need. Reach and I were iming the other day about this and I dropped a term I once heard which summed up the whole Hell doctrine in a concise chunk. She and Lok haven't used it yet, so I'll drop it here.

Neurological sabotage.

This is what has been done to you.

Neurological sabotage.

This is the primary reason these doctrines make me want to beat the shit out of whoever's responsible.

Neurological sabotage.

Did you know that you have two distinct systems for memory retention? One is short term, the other, long term. From a neurochemical standpoint, they work quite differently. Your short term memory is not meant to be kept on file for any length of time. However, if you want to put something in your long term memory, simply focus your attention on it for seven to fifteen seconds. When you do, it becomes chemically encoded in the cells of your nervous systems. (Yes, I said nervous systems, plural.) Get back to that in a moment.
So when a piece of data gets encoded into your long term memory, it actually becomes a permanent, physical part of your body. Trust me, it works. It is often used against people by those who truly are not their friends, and it's remarkably effective. It's all about mind control techniques, brother. This is how some of them work.

Now to the multiple nervous systems thing. You have at least two main nervous systems, and a bunch of interlocked subsystems. One of the two is for dealing with common, everyday, non threatening situations such as digestion and respiration. The other is for dealing with life threatening situations. That's the one that gives you that burst of adrenaline and that sort of thing. You've heard of the fight or flight response? That would be that nervous system taking over. It's great in short, intense situations, but is not meant to "left running" for long periods. Such is very detrimental to the health. So here we have another general mind control technique: Fears which keep the fight or flight response in a constant state of activation are inserted in the long term memory. The person is then in a certifiable altered state of consciousness and usually pretty controllable by others, if the others have taken pains to be imprinted on the victim as trustworthy.

Fear is a very effective way of putting someone in an extremely neurologically imprintable state. Ask Randon. He'll tell you.
One of the things I've learned which has been useful in my own life has been the shamanic approach. It is often observed by the shaman that the mind of the body does not know the difference between fantasy and reality. After all, everything you experience is a set of coded interpretations of
your sense impressions. The parts of you that make the decision of which nervous system is right for the moment don't understand that the pictures in your head are not really happening. Does this make sense to you? You can see it happen when you think about sex, for instance. Even though it isn't happening, your body reacts as though it were. Fantasizing about something that makes you angry is another example. Even though the actual situation may be long dead in the past, your body reacts as though it's happening now.

This little shamanic tidbit can be used to great effect if you make a deliberate choice about what you want to have going on in your head. It has been used against you by others. It's time for you to stop allowing criminals and theological perverts to have access to your nervous systems! This is a small, but very useful tool here, Nightbreeze. Do with it what you will.

Childrens' brains and nervous systems don't stop developing for many years after they are born. There is definitely a period of super imprintability in youth.

This (among other things) is what has been done to you.

Neurological sabotage.

WHO WOULD DO SUCH A THING TO A CHILD?!?!
Part of the answer, of course, is someone who has had it done to them. They are simply propagating their own mind control programming, as they were instructed to do.

As I said, I really don't have any doctrinal stuff for you that you don't already have. And as I said, it tears holes in me that this shit has been done to you when you were too young to defend yourself.

I wish I could speak with you for a while face to face. I don't have any idea if what I've said here will be of any use to you, but I hope it will. You are in need of such deep healing, just like any other victim of deep mind control abuse. It will take a while, brother. Just don't give up. An evil spell has been cast on you. You have to fight your way out.

But you can do it. I know you can. All this horrific shit has been done to you. The real question now is, what are you going to do about it?

Much love,
Loren

The thread, To Hell With Hell, has been archived http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=166 if you want to read through it.

Posted by: Joe1980 Dec 13 2004, 08:30 AM

reach,
thank you for the information and taking the time to read my post

Posted by: Reach Dec 13 2004, 08:48 AM

QUOTE (Joe1980 @ Dec 13 2004, 08:30 AM)

reach,
thank you for the information and taking the time to read my post

My pleasure, Joe. It's good to have you here and I also enjoyed reading http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1695.

Thank you for taking the time to introduce yourself. I can sure relate to much of what you've shared.

Reach

Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 13 2004, 10:06 AM

Reach, it amazes me that you are able to keep these old post so much in mind that you are actually able to find them! I wish I had your recall ability.

Posted by: Libertus Dec 13 2004, 10:14 AM

QUOTE

Libertus,

What you have given to me so far is very helpful. If possible, I would like to ask some follow-up questions:

First, I am sorry I have been so terribly long in replying. Lots going on around here.

QUOTE

1. You said that one of the reasons that started your trek out of Christianity as a whole was that you started to see "...the lack of biblical basis for a lot of pentecostal doctrine before [your] deconversion". Would you mind expanding on this some more?

Well, hmm. Pentecostals are tremendously notorious for twisting the Bible around to make things work for them. The whole concept of "Speaking in tongues" is justified very weakly in my opinion by the Bible itself. The concept that "tongues" is the evidence of HS indwelling is ridiculous since the Bible clearly states that the "Fruits of the Spirit" are the evidence of this indwelling. The scriptures given for being "slain in the spirit" are just laughable, though I'm sorry but I don't feel like looking them up, but I know that one is a kid falling into the fire.

I must say that all of the churches are guilty of the same thing. Pentecostals and other fundamentalists twist the bible for the own power purposes and more liberal churches twist it to make it sound better than it actually does as to not scare anyone away.

QUOTE

2. You shared that you may be somewhat bitter towards Christianity/Pentecostalism. Could you describe what you are specifically bitter about?

The time and money I wasted (countless hours and over $10,000 in 2 years of "giving"). Losing for so long the inability to trust my own mind to think about the world. Getting deeply ensconced into the world of pentecostal christianity and christianity in general can really make you lose track of who you really are.

QUOTE

3. You shared that a former Pastor refused to answer a specific question that you had asked. What question was that?

She has some story about the last supper that she uses to make a point about the resurrection and leavened bread. She says that the Last Supper was eaten with leavened bread, vice unleavened. Her reasoning for this was that she had some way that she said that it was not yet the feast of unleavened bread and that the word used for bread referred to risen bread. Well, in my research in Strong's and elsewhere I could find no word in the Greek that meant unleavened bread, but the primary point for me was that 3 of the 4 gospels clearly state that the Last Supper was held during the feast of unleavened bread and therefore risen bread would have been unlawful.

My question to her was how she could say what she said (every time we had communion) even though the scriptures clearly showed that she was wrong. I asked the question very politely as a concerned member via email and through her secretary. I resent the email many, many times with no response. I even tried to go through Associate Pastors and still got no response. We always got responses if we asked to clarify how we should tithe.

QUOTE

4. You shared that you were now free in your thinking and you "don't participate in silly rituals in order to make [yourself] feel better". Did the pastor/church make you feel bad about yourself or did you feel bad about yourself apart from the church?

Church culture's and the Bible's prohibition of pretty much everything sort of leads to the culture of guilt. If I see an attractive woman walking around the mall and she sparks my attention, as she should naturally, I have to feel guilty because I'm "lusting".

QUOTE

5. You shared that the counsel that you would give a Pentecostal Pastor today would be, "...to be "Stop the bullshit" or "Think about the stuff that you are saying. Really think about it." What exactly do you mean?

"Stop the Bullshit" - I sincerely believe that a lot of these Pastors don't really believe what they propagate at the pulpit. There so much crap coming from these churches, I just can't believe that all the people at the top really believe all of it.

"Think about it" - Having realized just how irrational all this stuff is, I wish that all these pastors would just think about the false hope that they instill and how much they gloss over life by removing reality and thought.
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I hope this helps, and again I apologize for taking so long.

Libertus

Posted by: reusablepheonix Dec 13 2004, 10:24 AM

1. What is your spiritual background before becoming a Pentecostal?

Southern Baptist, and more conservative anti-penticostal denominations...Pentacostal was the last church church I attended for a few years before I deconverted altogether.

2. What made you become a Pentecostal?

the people seemed more "onfire" and enthusiastic, the music was modern, much better than the sunday worship of unhappy hymnal singing Baptists. I was taught pentacostals were demon possessed, I got to know a few and discovered they were not..so it peaked my interest in going to a Pentacostal chruch

3. What was the main reason you left Pentecostalism?

the same reasons that are discussed into infinity on this and other apologetics debating sites

4. Would you consider yourself bitter towards Pentecostalism?

No

5. Would you consider yourself bitter towards any Pentecostal leader?

No, except now days I think Benny Hinn ought to be charged with Murder

6. What is your spiritual condition at this time? (Are you an Atheist, Agnostic, Christian [what denomination?] etc.)

Hopeful Agnostic, Universalist, Unitarian, weak athiest...
or a diest whose Deity follows the Prime DIrective.

7. What do you feel about Pentecostal churches today?

Self induced mass hypnosis and alterted state...based upon emotions and feelings, activated by the use of ritual and repetition, a common tactic used in many tribal and other religions to induce altered states..
it even happens to me when I play my guitar for a long period of time and get into the "Zone"..

8. What counsel would you give to a friend you discovered was planning on becoming a Pentecostal?

no cousel...do what ever you want as long as your not hurting another, I dont care.

9. What do you believe about the Bible? Is it God's inspired Word? Is only some of it God's Word? Is it not God;s Word?

Inspired word? NO except the universal humanist concepts of the Golden Rule

10. What do you consider "speaking in tongues"?
An egotistical need to validate a belief, useing ritual and repetition, and collective social environment.
so many tribal religions and other modern religions do the exact same thing with the exact same result.

11. What benefits would you list about the direction you have chosen at this time in your life?

Happy, freethinking, questioning everything, the excitment of education. no depression. Liberated from sin complex. no longer demonizeing and dehumanizing people. More tolerant and the ability to understand others point of view. Less Judgemental. Less self rightoues. better self esteem. feelings of more peace and connectivness to the universe.
Less seriouse, ability to see the funny and beauty around me.
less tendancy to spiritualize every single little thing

12. What counsel would you give a Pentecostal pastor today if you could?

Nothing I said would have any impact. He would demonize me from the start and assume I have nothing of value to say.

Posted by: Reach Dec 14 2004, 06:36 AM

QUOTE (Libertus @ Dec 13 2004, 10:14 AM)

QUOTE (Rapha)

Libertus, far too many of "the people at the top" don't really believe all the stuff that is being propagated from the pulpit, nor what is being taught at the nation's leading seminaries and major Bible colleges.

Check the stats for the attrition rate on pastors leaving their pastorships.

More importantly, check the polls taken from seminaries and namely, seminary professors and you will soon see with your own eyes that this group, America's Christian teaching professionals, actually believes less than the general populace, regarding such things as the virgin birth, the return of Christ, Jesus Christ as the son of God, the doctrine of eternal damnation, and so on.

I wonder why they remain in their professorships when they get to a point where they no longer believe this crap.

Anything to do with $$$?

Posted by: Libertus Dec 14 2004, 06:44 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 14 2004, 06:36 AM)

Anything to do with $$$?

Well, Dan Barker freely admits that $$$ is one of the things that kept him doing it for a while. He just didn't know what else to do, but fortunately he had some integrity and it finally got the better of him.

Libertus

Posted by: Reach Dec 14 2004, 07:13 AM

QUOTE (Libertus @ Dec 14 2004, 06:44 AM)

That brings to mind what Albert Einstein said; "Try not to become a man of success. Rather become a man of value."

And from Mark Twain in Huck Finn...
"But that's always the way; it don't make no difference whether you do right or wrong, a person's conscience ain't got no sense, and just goes for him anyway. If I had a yaller dog that didn't know no more than a person's conscience does I would pison him. It takes up more room than all the rest of a person's insides, and yet ain't no good, nohow."

Reach

P.S. Couldn't resist Mark Twain.

Posted by: Libertus Dec 14 2004, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Dec 14 2004, 07:13 AM)

That brings to mind what Albert Einstein said; "Try not to become a man of success. Rather become a man of value."

Wow! And you haven't read my latest http://www.voxlibertus.com entry yet, have you? That corresponds perfectly.

The queen of the Quotes!

Libertus