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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Reason Posted by: Farasha Jan 8 2004, 07:01 PM After looking at many of the posts and articles on this website, I don't think I've ever seen this possibility come up: The human mind, human logic, human reason is finite. If God is infinite and all-powerful, wouldn’t he be beyond human reason/logic? Wouldn't all our attempts to fit him into our own logic and reason be futile? Logic is, by definition, limiting. That which is all-poweful cannot be limited. Also, when looking at the attributes of God, we find that he is: All-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving, all-good, etc. The one attribute which is most essential to an Ultimate Being of any kind is that the Ultimate Being must be all-powerful, that is, it cannot be limited. The very act of defining something is limiting it. However, if God is all-powerful, he can construe definitions of himself in order to enable humans to concieve of him. Thus, what seem to be paradoxes that arise from his attributes of being all-knowing, all-loving, all-good, etc., are not actually paradoxes, because those definitions are mere representations of God's nature. Look at it this way: if you were trying to explain quatum physics to a child, you would have to greatly simplify it. By the very act of simplifying it, you are alienating it from its true nature. Thus, our view of God is, in actuality, alienated from his true nature. A paradox, then, is essentially proof that the mind is finite, that there are things it cannot fathom. Thus, this eliminates all objections to Christianity which are on the basis of reason. (Looking through the ex-Christian testimonies, I've found that nearly all of their reasons for deconverting are "logic".) Does that make any sense? Posted by: Farasha Jan 8 2004, 07:21 PM As a supplement to my original post, consider this: To know for certain that God exists, you don't have to know everything but you do have to know something - you must either know God personally or you must be aware of some evidence establishing His existence. To be unsure whether or not God exists, you don't have to know everything. In fact, by your own admission you don't know everything. However, to claim to know for certain that God doesn't exist - to positively assert a universal negative - you would have to know everything. To be absolutely certain that God doesn't exist outside the limits of your knowledge, you would have to possess all knowledge. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 8 2004, 07:54 PM Not everyone here is Athiest. Some are deists. Or even *shock* another religion *choke* those exist? Posted by: No surprises Jan 8 2004, 10:18 PM Farasha, Logic...paradoxes...they are both man-made concepts. God will never fit into the box. Faith is the most foundational piece of the equation. You don't need to have a lot of faith...but some faith is absolutely necessary...(does a mustard seed sound familiar?) There are many brilliant scientists, anthropologists, medical d.r.'s, and philosophers who have come to have faith in Jesus Christ through a life-changing experience. Personal experience far outweighs human academics...at least for me. There are tough issues with Christianity...you'll read about some here...but nothing life-changing. I like the quote from Napoleon...but my favorite quote of his was:"I know men and I tell you that Jesus Christ is no mere man. Between him and every other person in the world there is no possible term of comparison. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I founded empires. But on what did we rest the creations of our genius? Upon force. Jesus Christ founded His empire upon love; and at this hour millions of people would die for Him." Napoleon Bonaparte Posted by: chefranden Jan 8 2004, 10:25 PM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 8 2004, 09:21 PM) As a supplement to my original post, consider this: To know for certain that God exists, you don't have to know everything but you do have to know something - you must either know God personally or you must be aware of some evidence establishing His existence. To be unsure whether or not God exists, you don't have to know everything. In fact, by your own admission you don't know everything. However, to claim to know for certain that God doesn't exist - to positively assert a universal negative - you would have to know everything. To be absolutely certain that God doesn't exist outside the limits of your knowledge, you would have to possess all knowledge. No, you don't have to know everything to refute God. You just need to know the god's attributes. The christian god is easy to refute by the problem of evil, and the problem of non-belief is pretty strong as well. Now if all you can say about god is that it exists, then you have something. As soon as he gets attributes, then he's in trouble. I'm not a child I'm an adult. If he cant make sense to me than he is not perfect, and he does not exist, which makes sense, since one would not expect sense from a non-existent being. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 8 2004, 10:34 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Jan 9 2004, 01:25 AM) I'm not a child I'm an adult. If he cant make sense to me than he is not perfect, and he does not exist, which makes sense, since one would not expect sense from a non-existent being. I think what she ment was that, by comparison, you are to god as a child is to adult. In a SAT word comparison format: Child::Adult as Adult::God Posted by: Tocis Jan 9 2004, 01:58 AM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 8 2004, 07:01 PM) The human mind, human logic, human reason is finite. If God is infinite and all-powerful, wouldn’t he be beyond human reason/logic? Wouldn't all our attempts to fit him into our own logic and reason be futile? Thus, this eliminates all objections to Christianity which are on the basis of reason. Does that make any sense? Basically, yes it does make sense if we are discussing the supernatural. If we would understand something supernatural well enough to exactly explain and/or (dis-)prove it, I think it would become natural during the procedure, by definition. What we can argue about, however, is: To what actions do believers feel motivated by their belief? Considering the madness, the hatred, the bigotry et cetera that was and still is spawned by fundies, the only possible justification I can imagine is absolute proof that all this is done for the One True Faith. Unless this can be proven beyond any reasonable doubt for the type of "christianity" the fundies believe in, they have no right to try and force anything on others. Same of course for fanatic muslims and any other madman who wants to make the rest of the world dance to his tune. On this site we logically should concentrate on christian fanaticism... Christianity as I once was taught it has to be, emphasizing the Great Commandment before anything else, is fine with me, and I know a fair number of German christians who are perfectly okay. What I despise and fight is the fundyism. Hope to have helped... Posted by: wido Jan 9 2004, 05:30 AM No surprises appears to me to have used the old "you are a rude, crude dude on me" in order to skirt the issue I would like for him to address and say because I hurt him personally he will not address my concerns. I think it would be beneficial to know what his opinion ison the subject below. According to the Gospels Jesus' death is portrayed as a sacrifice. I would like No surprises to address why God has to stoop to man's superstitious paganist pratice of blood sacrifice. I explained this is the most significant reason why I reject Judaism. Christianity, Islam and consider them nothing more than evolved paganism. This forum "Debating with Christians" provides a warning that it could be heated debate. If you can't take the heat you know you should get out of the kitchen. The cloak of feeling personally affronted is not an excuse it's a cop-out. Please explain, No surprises. Posted by: moorezw Jan 9 2004, 06:30 AM Farasha- The "humans are not capable of understanding God" argument has come up many, many times. It's nothing more than an appeal to faith, and the beginning of a vicious cycle. 1) One cannot use reason to understand God 2) Without reason, belief must be by faith alone 3) When faith weakens, one looks for concrete proofs 4) Proofs are discovered by using reason ...returning to point 1, over and over and over again. Posted by: Farasha Jan 9 2004, 11:32 AM Alrighty, I think I found a way to refute my original supposition: On the abolishment of human reason when dealing with God on the implication that human reason is imperfect: 1. Human reason is imperfect and finite. 2. God is perfect and infinite 3. Thus, God exceeds human reason and logic. 4. I exercised human reason to come up with the above. 5. Since human reason is flawed, all of the above is flawed. 6. Thus, the conclusion that God exceeds human reason is erroneous because I concieved of that conclusion with my own erroneous knowledge/logic. 7. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 8. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 9. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 10. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. And it would go on forever..... The only thing I can think of to refute this is to claim that #4 is false; human logic did not come up with numbers 1-3, God told us those. But I'm not sure if I believe that. Posted by: chefranden Jan 9 2004, 11:43 AM Farasha, I already love you for your mind! chef Posted by: chefranden Jan 9 2004, 11:48 AM I think that #2 is a/the flaw in your argument, as it is an unfounded assumption, unless it is just a definition, rather than a being. Posted by: Tocis Jan 9 2004, 11:57 AM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 9 2004, 11:32 AM) ... But I'm not sure if I believe that. Dear Farasha, I think that's the key statement. You're not sure because you can't be sure. No one of us can ever be absolutely sure about supernatural topics. As long as we don't forget this, especially where religion is concerned, we should be able to deal with the problems that, sooner or later, will appear to us. And we should be able to treat other humans (with differing opinions) with some respect, because we may be wrong after all. It is when we (in one or another kind of hubris) start thinking we can be sure about anything supernatural that we start mutating into a**holes. That's what the fundies do with their "holier than thou" attitude, the very thing that drives us mad. (All this definitely includes myself. If someone asks me how I can be sure that my Asatru faith is true, I freely admit that no, I can't be sure. It's just the faith that intuitively, spontaneously, felt right to me when my curious little self started reading its scripture ) I may not know much about you (yet - I hope you stay around here ) but as far as I can tell you're an interesting person! Posted by: moorezw Jan 9 2004, 02:28 PM Farasha- QUOTE 5. Since human reason is flawed, all of the above is flawed. If that is true, than everything created by human reason is flawed, and may not truly exist. Reality is an elaborate illusion created by the random intersection of flawed conclusions, and nothing that is perceived is real. Why even get out of bed in the morning? Posted by: Loren Jan 9 2004, 03:39 PM QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 9 2004, 02:28 PM) Reality is an elaborate illusion created by the random intersection of flawed conclusions, and nothing that is perceived is real. Why even get out of bed in the morning? Why, to see some more of the elaborate illusion, of course! To participate in it, even! Posted by: Loren Jan 9 2004, 03:51 PM Farasha, like Chef, I like your mind. I especially like that you question your own conclusions, as well as those of others. As to the problem of definition imposing limitation, the Taoists say that as soon as you've named the Tao, you've lost the Tao. As to your infinite regression of logic, that is the very act that Zen seeks to break with koans. Or rather the delusion that logic can be truly applied consistantly without the logic breaking itself or turning into just the sort of decision-paralyzing regression you've described. The Budhists say, "If you meet the Budha on the road, kill him." Have you ever taken a look at some of the eastern religions? You might enjoy some of their ideas. Loren Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 9 2004, 07:35 PM Funny stuff, Loren. And good point, Zach. Another thing to consider, Farasha.... You said it yourself, "God" told us that human logic and reasoning is inherintly flawed and erroneous. As God himself is flawed and erroneous, isn't it not only entirely possible but even likely that his admonition that our natural logic is flawed is an erroneous statment in and of itself? To paraphrase (I think) Albert Einstein, "All our knowledge, when held up against the vastness of what we do not know, is as a tiny candle flame in the midst of an endless ocean of darkness and obscurity--yet it is our greatest hope." Farasha. I absolutely love that name. I like your avatar, as well. Ah Hell, I already like you! I really hope you stick around for a while. Posted by: Farasha Jan 9 2004, 08:02 PM Hey thanks, woodsmoke. QUOTE As God himself is flawed and erroneous, isn't it not only entirely possible but even likely that his admonition that our natural logic is flawed is an erroneous statment in and of itself? No Christian would accept the statement that God himself is flawed and erroneous. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 9 2004, 08:52 PM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 9 2004, 11:02 PM) No Christian would accept the statement that God himself is flawed and erroneous. Universal Unitarians? Posted by: Derek Jan 9 2004, 11:25 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 9 2004, 07:35 PM) As God himself is flawed and erroneous, isn't it not only entirely possible but even likely that his admonition that our natural logic is flawed is an erroneous statment in and of itself? I'm assuming you're presenting a dichotomy of either erroneous, or non-erroneous (the later meaning perfect). If this is the case, and your given assumption is that "As God Himself is flawed and erroneous", then how can a flawed God create something non-flawed? If the only option either than flawed is non-flawed, then no matter how erroneous a statement may have potential to be (as a consequence of being uttered by a flawed God), the statement that our reason is flawed cannot be erroneous, it must be true. You might say that a flawed being can only assert flawed things, but we all admit we are not perfect, yet are capable of stating true things (there are 3 apples on that table), though we are not capable of creating perfect things. By the same token (sorry for redundancy), given your assumptions about God, he may say true things, but cannot create perfect things, so by definition the statement that our logic (something he created) is flawed can only be true. Posted by: wido Jan 10 2004, 11:27 AM Napolean, I know how any megalomaniac would envy better methods to control the masses to lay down their lives for him. However, Jesus' love-in was founded by Saul and then was founded as an empire by Caesar who did this by force. Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 10 2004, 11:30 AM Okay, give me a little while to wrap my brain around that one, Derek. You're right, of course, to see everything in black-and-white, such as I seem to have presented it, is neither entirely true nor entirely accurate. This world has so many shades of gray it's kind of amazing we can see any other color sometimes. I don't believe in any deity, so for someone to speak of one saying something is--to me--merely utterances in the third person by one with multiple-personality-disorder. "God said..." to me equates to the same thing as me saying "woodsmoke said...." I don't know where that came from, I suppose I just had to get it off my chest. Anyway, I don't believe our reasoning and logic are inherently flawed and erronious. As you yourself stated, we have the capability of being correct, however we also have a margin for error. God, however, allegedly has no margin for error, ergo nothing he says can possibly be incorrect in any way. This doesn't ride well with me, as he has quite obviously made statements in the past that were extremely out of line, saying they were "incorrect, false, or inappropriate," would be sugar-coating the issue tremendously. Okay, can anyone else see the point I'm trying to convey with this post? Because I sure as hell can't. Posted by: Farasha Jan 10 2004, 05:54 PM QUOTE God, however, allegedly has no margin for error, ergo nothing he says can possibly be incorrect in any way. This doesn't ride well with me, as he has quite obviously made statements in the past that were extremely out of line, saying they were "incorrect, false, or inappropriate," would be sugar-coating the issue tremendously. I have recently been looking into Theonomy, the idea that God is beyond all logic or reason, it's pretty interesting stuff. The basic precept is that God's will is the only basis for morality, and that everything we know to be true in all areas of life--biology, physics, chemistry, natural law, etc.--is true because God willed it to be so, but God can change his will at any time. It's pretty confusing stuff. According to this theory, loving God is the ONLY virtuous act, thus, no single action is inherently better or worse than any other action. Pouring gasoline on your child and igniting it is only bad because God says so, but God can change that at any time. Thus, God can commit murder, lie, etc., without there being any sinful or self-contradictory circumstances attached. The main problem I see with this is, I look at God killing someone's entire family for the sins of one person, and I think that is wrong. Now where do I get that idea that God's action is wrong? If all morality comes from God, then my view of God's killing innocent people is a distortion of God's moral precept as handed down to man. God tells us the rules, but he doesn't have to follow his own rules, because by definition, whatever he does is within his rules. Again, pretty confusing stuff. Well I just thought I'd throw that out there. Maybe I'll start another thread about Theonomy after I look into it a bit more. Posted by: TruthWarrior Jan 10 2004, 08:39 PM QUOTE (SpaceFalcon2001 @ Jan 10 2004, 12:52 AM) QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 9 2004, 11:02 PM) No Christian would accept the statement that God himself is flawed and erroneous. Universal Unitarians? Or open theists. Posted by: Huh? Jan 10 2004, 09:41 PM Farasha, some already said they liked your mind. I'm one more of them. You make some interesting connections. "The main problem I see with this is, I look at God killing someone's entire family for the sins of one person, and I think that is wrong. Now where do I get that idea that God's action is wrong? If all morality comes from God, then my view of God's killing innocent people is a distortion of God's moral precept as handed down to man. God tells us the rules, but he doesn't have to follow his own rules, because by definition, whatever he does is within his rules. Again, pretty confusing stuff." Indeed, interesting. But we could simply ask theonomy "Why do you claim that? On what basis?" Our ideas, our morals, are directly dependants on our brain. Our brain is directly dependant on the whole world its interact with. There's no magic in it. For theonomy to be true, our brain should be a closed system with a single link to god. Or else, that god would have to plan his universe pretty well so that the cause-effect chain ends up in everybody always having the same morals as him. Etc. There's also the "possibility" that god is lying about himself, the bible, hell, heaven, the soul, etc. After all, its much more logical that he would lie about eternal damnation. Its also possible that a Pink Invisible Unicorn govern the universe. So anyways, theories must have bases. Posted by: BillJ Jan 10 2004, 10:13 PM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 10 2004, 08:54 PM) I have recently been looking into Theonomy, the idea that God is beyond all logic or reason, it's pretty interesting stuff. The basic precept is that God's will is the only basis for morality, and that everything we know to be true in all areas of life--biology, physics, chemistry, natural law, etc.--is true because God willed it to be so, but God can change his will at any time. It's pretty confusing stuff. According to this theory, loving God is the ONLY virtuous act, thus, no single action is inherently better or worse than any other action. Pouring gasoline on your child and igniting it is only bad because God says so, but God can change that at any time. Thus, God can commit murder, lie, etc., without there being any sinful or self-contradictory circumstances attached. The main problem I see with this is, I look at God killing someone's entire family for the sins of one person, and I think that is wrong. Now where do I get that idea that God's action is wrong? If all morality comes from God, then my view of God's killing innocent people is a distortion of God's moral precept as handed down to man. God tells us the rules, but he doesn't have to follow his own rules, because by definition, whatever he does is within his rules. Again, pretty confusing stuff. Well I just thought I'd throw that out there. Maybe I'll start another thread about Theonomy after I look into it a bit more. I cannot comprehend theonomy, here is why... God miraculously comes into being, he that created humans with a rational brain which aids in survival and understanding of existence. God chooses to create humans that use logic, which is the foundation for morality and human laws. God creates religion, commanding humans to obey rules. Most religions aren't very logical in our sense, so it could very well be possible that some childish chaotic God exists who creates humans who have an opposite understanding of logic just to make them suffer. If theonomy was true we would be Illogical to God, and God would be Illogical to us, what is the point? it sounds like a childish game to me. Here is my belief... All murders done in the name of God were done in the name of a mythical God, a lot of the massacres in the Bible would have been impossible back then because of the ridiculous amounts of casualites reported on one day done by armies with swords and spears. I believe the stories were made up to cause fear amongst nations; by simply using human psychology you can have people on their knees. The religious frauds did a horrible job when writing the bible and they caused many inconsistencies, thus making morality and logic confusing. When there is a difficulty what do people do? they create theonomy. If god is really beyond logic and God murder's innocent people, hate gays, sends people to hell, and creates square circles, I will really be pissed off. If we used God's logic we wouldn't be here, we would be killing the last few humans with sticks and stones. Posted by: Matthew Jan 10 2004, 10:36 PM QUOTE 1. Human reason is imperfect and finite. 2. God is perfect and infinite 3. Thus, God exceeds human reason and logic. 4. I exercised human reason to come up with the above. 5. Since human reason is flawed, all of the above is flawed. 6. Thus, the conclusion that God exceeds human reason is erroneous because I concieved of that conclusion with my own erroneous knowledge/logic. 7. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 8. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 9. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. 10. The above conclusion is erroneous because I conceived of it with my own erroneous logic. And it would go on forever..... Actually one would have to revise premises 3 and 5. The third premise should be: 3.) Thus, God transcends the boundaries of human reason and logic and number 5 should read: 5.) Since human reason has the potential for flaw, it is necessarily limited, and therefore all of the above cannot be stated with absolute certainty because of the fallible limits of human reason and logic. Matthew Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 10 2004, 11:08 PM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 10 2004, 05:54 PM) I have recently been looking into Theonomy, the idea that God is beyond all logic or reason, it's pretty interesting stuff. If God is beyond all logic or reason, then doesn't that make him illogical and unreasonable? And if God is illogical and unreasonable, how can we as humans be able to comprehend him, let alone know anything about him? Theonomy is wacked anyway. What makes is worse is that if one believes the Bible is just ancient mythology (like me) your "God's law" is basically the primitive ideas of cavemen. We would all live in a Xian theocracy based on laws from the dark ages, where executions and pulic stoning was routine punishment for adulterers, idolaters, gays, rebellious children, blasphemers, etc. It's like a dictatorship, but worse.....the dictator doesn't even exist! Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 11 2004, 12:38 AM One thing I just wanted to add to my previous post re: theonomy......... When I look at the OT and some of the "laws" it becomes more evident to me that man created God, not the reverse. For example, if God created the universe and everything in it, he *must* be more intelligent than us, exponentially so, and there should be no debate about this. So I ask you, why would a being of such intelligence require animal sacrafices? Why would he require blood for sins? Why would he savor the smell of burning dead animals? Why would he instruct humans to kill other humans? In fact, why would a being that intelligent even create us in the first place? His idea was to create us to meet certain expecatations, yet he knew in advance that we would not meet those expectations..... but he went ahead and created us anyway. If that isn't bad enough, he also knew there would be much suffering on earth as a result of us not meeting the expectations that he knew we wouldn't meet, and that much of humanity would end up in hell after he judges us for not meeting the expectations that he knew we wouldn't meet. Yet he ignored all this and still went ahead and created us anyway. So what is the point? Why even bother? Doesn't God see how much suffering and pain and misery is the result of his ignoring his own omniscience? If I with my puny, insignificant IQ can see the futility in this (if not the cruelty), why can't God? In my opinion these are all ideas of primitive men who didn't know any better, not the ideas of a being with an IQ of infinity..... Posted by: Farasha Jan 11 2004, 01:11 AM Yes, I see exactly what you are saying. I have been thinking about this a lot. The only purpose I can discern from God creating our world despite the fact that he knew it would be fallen is this: so that he could give people the opportunity, through their free will in the presence of evil, to choose him, and then at the end of the world destroy evil and thus destroy "free will" in that sense. Of course, free will would no longer be necessary because the "chosen" ones already proved that they loved him when they had a free will. But this does not eliminate the incoherencies in the concept of "God". QUOTE When there is a difficulty what do people do? they create theonomy. Alright, I really need to let this out. Here is my question for you ex-Christians: how did you move on, after realizing that everything you've ever known is false?? Up until about two weeks ago, I had been a Christian my entire life, heck, it WAS my entire life. And now the deeper I delve into it, the more I can't accept it as truth. How do you deal with that?!?! It's like waking up from the Matrix....all I've ever known is a lie....and the one thing I had to look forward to when things get really rough, an afterlife, doesn't exist. How do you move on when your whole world has fallen apart?? Ignorance is bliss, even if you don't want to admit it. Now I see why Christians will do whatever it takes to hang onto religion. I think I may be one of those people. Posted by: Doug2 Jan 11 2004, 01:35 AM QUOTE How do you deal with that?!?! When someone is having withdrawals from drugs, they find it difficult and want to take more drugs. Just go slowly. You have just left christianity. You have ripped the cancer from your body and now a big hole remains. You said you think you may be one of those people that would rather live in ignorance. I think you are too smart for that. Now that you realize christianity is false, it will no longer bring you the same security as before. It is gone, and has left a vacuum that you are trying to fill as quickly as possible, looking for an answer in other philosophies and religions. When you have grown up with the idea that religion is good and necessary, it is difficult to see anything else. If I may suggest that you allow your humanity to return, to fill in what christianity took. There really is no need for old religions. Find your awe in the beauty and wonder of the universe, find your love in the touch of another human, find poetry under your own pen and strength in your self. This takes time. It is not easy, but that doesn't mean it can't be amazing. We welcome your here to learn and speak what is on your mind. QUOTE I have seen yesterday and I love today Now that is the spirit Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 11 2004, 01:54 AM QUOTE I have been thinking about this a lot. The only purpose I can discern from God creating our world despite the fact that he knew it would be fallen is this: so that he could give people the opportunity, through their free will in the presence of evil, to choose him, and then at the end of the world destroy evil and thus destroy "free will" in that sense. Of course, free will would no longer be necessary because the "chosen" ones already proved that they loved him when they had a free will. I'm not sure what to tell you about this. I've heard this particular line so many times I could spout it in my sleep, but in said cases it was always coming from a rabid fundie who refused to consider anything I said. I've never had to approach it from the angle of a struggling, recent deconvert. The usual response I would give is something along these lines. As God is omniscient, he knew from day one who was going to make it and who wasn't, and thus "free will" and agency become null and void. Despite what the Xians say that it is still in fact our choice to make, if someone else knows for fact and has already seen in recorded history that you're going to choose this way, in essence free will becomes nothing more than a figment of the imagination based upon personal perception of the situation. Not that any of this really helps you in any way. Sorry, I go into lecture mode like that sometimes. Just let me know and I'll try to tone it down, or at least put a tighter leash on it. QUOTE Alright, I really need to let this out. Here is my question for you ex-Christians: how did you move on, after realizing that everything you've ever known is false?? One day at a time. Just try to deal with life as it comes at you. Don't worry about tomorrow, don't worry about next week, and definitely don't worry about after death. Not until you're ready to. You'll know when you're ready, but you'll also know when you're not; and trying to tackle the issue while in the latter situation will almost certainly do more harm than good. At first, that's about all you can do. QUOTE Up until about two weeks ago, I had been a Christian my entire life, heck, it WAS my entire life. And now the deeper I delve into it, the more I can't accept it as truth. How do you deal with that?!?! With patience, learning, and the support of those who have "been there done that," so to speak. When you were a little girl and you had a bad dream, I'm willing to bet that after you woke up in a cold sweat, that fear and anxiety lingered with you for a time. I know it did for me, anyway. After such an occurrence, I would stay awake for a few minutes to let the dream fade, and once I felt I was ready to give it another go, I would close my eyes and try to go back to sleep. Sometimes it worked, and sometimes, the second my eyes were closed the monsters would be there and I started wide awake again. I hope all the other members know I'm not trying to discredit or downplay yoru feelings in any way, but I feel somewhat of a special sentiment for and bond with Farasha that others may not. Please let me know if I'm getting out of line or my ego is getting the better of me, but I looked at your profile and saw your birthday. Turns out you're not much older than me. And both of us were raised from birth in the faith. Both of us seem to have committed whole-heartedly to it, and both of us seem to have suddenly had the rug pulled from under our feet. Call me crazy, but I think you and I are a lot alike; and in more ways than our ex-Christian status and our passion for writing. Just a side note because I can't resist, I dig classical music, too. QUOTE It's like waking up from the Matrix....all I've ever known is a lie....and the one thing I had to look forward to when things get really rough, an afterlife, doesn't exist. How do you move on when your whole world has fallen apart?? Honestly, I don't know how. If you ever figure it out, please pass it on. Until then, I don't know what to tell you. For myself, I've basically just put the whole religion thing behind me. I still have some qualms with it, obviously, but overall I try to focus on the present and what I can do here and now to make the future better. Religion served its purpose for me. It taught me a lot of wonderful things, and it unwittingly taught me some things it didn't intend to. That stage of my life is over, and it doesn't do any good to dwell in the past. That's not to say you shouldn't contemplate or speculate upon it. If you don't remember the things you did, how are you going to learn from your mistakes or improve yourself in an area where you think you could have done better? I'm not suggesting this is the right thing for you to do--only you can know that--just giving you my perspective on the matter in the hope that it helps in some way. QUOTE Ignorance is bliss, even if you don't want to admit it. Farasha, that's not true, and we both know it. You are an intelligent, wonderful person. Ask yourself, knowing what you do about the lies and deceptions of Christianity, and having the courage to admit the discrepencies to yourself and step out of your senseless faith, would you really, truly, want to go back to not knowing? Would you honestly accept the chance to have the blinders pulled over your eyes once again so you can live a life of constant fear and perpetual insecurity? I think we both know the answer to those questions. You're a better person than that. You took the first step when you were able to admit to yourself that you'd come to the conclusion that Christianity is a false religion. You took yet another step when you pulled together the courage and resourcefulness to act upon that knowledge and declare--to yourself, at least--that you could no longer follow such a deceptive belief system. You've chosen the path of intelligence, wisdom, and freedom. You've already started that journey. I can't guarantee anything, but if you stay with it, I can almost assure you that you will find new reasons to hope. You will find new people and ideas to invest your faith in. People and ideas from which you will receive feedback and results--something you never got from the Christian god. QUOTE Now I see why Christians will do whatever it takes to hang onto religion. I think I may be one of those people. Your continued presence here is evidence to the contrary, my friend. And yes, though you've only been here a few days, and have only posted a comparatively small number of times, I do consider you my friend. Remember, I'm here for you. We're all here for you. Any time you need us, day or night. If you'd like, you can converse privately with me. I have three email addresses: woodsmoke@boxfrog.com, @burntmail.com, @ancient-paths.net ; all the same handle (woodsmoke). I don't know if you have any type of instant messenger on your computer, but I only have MSN on mine. If you'd like to get ahold of me there, my sign-in is woodsmoke@boxfrog.com . Take it easy on yourself. It's not easy coming out of Christianity. Take it slow, go at your own pace. I'm always here if you need or desire to speak with me. Posted by: BillJ Jan 11 2004, 02:06 AM QUOTE How do you move on when your whole world has fallen apart?? I never truly believed in God when I was growing up, I was never really a christian, all I did was play in some room at church, and than my family stopped attending. Religion isn't that serious in Canada, you aren't popular in school if you are christian but in the US this seems to be the opposite. So basically I was left on my own, now as an young adult I feel as if there is no security, but than I realize that I myself am a form of security, and even at the harshest times I will never be a pussy. We have all we need for survival, if God exists why would God need to help us when the help is within. I am not going to be a weak minded wimp because I sense no God. I'm not saying that people who believe in God are weak, I am just saying that I don't understand how someone would feel that everything has fallen apart without God in the picture. I feel life is better as a mystery waiting to be solved, it ruins everything and makes it quite lame to live a life with a religion that tells you our purpose, where's the fun in that? Everyone likes a mystery, when you see someone who you are attracted to you always wonder what they look like naked, and to get to the mystery you have to work for it; but if everyone walked around naked it wouldn't have the same effect, you would get used to it, and the mystery wouldn't be there. What exactly has a belief in a Bible God done for anybody? In war the weaks ones were hiding in the trenches praying to God, while the atheist was killing enemies. While the Christians were at church a deist was helping an Old lady who had fallen. The bible scholars wasted years learning about the biggest fairy tale ever written, while a scientist discovered how to go to space so we can find a new planet to live on so that we don't go exstinct when our planet becomes too hot to live on. You don't have to give up the belief in God after rejecting christianity, Deist's understand God through nature, but they don't pray to God, they know they have the strength within themselves. Atheist reject the existence of a God because there is lack of evidence, they experience the pain of life no different than a christian, but are they somehow weaker, do they cry about it, no, because there is absolutely no need for God. If God exists God is always with us, that is if God is omnipresent, and if so than you don't need to pray to God, because God is always present. Posted by: Tocis Jan 11 2004, 04:26 AM QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 11 2004, 01:11 AM) It's like waking up from the Matrix....all I've ever known is a lie....and the one thing I had to look forward to when things get really rough, an afterlife, doesn't exist. How do you move on when your whole world has fallen apart?? Ignorance is bliss, even if you don't want to admit it. Now I see why Christians will do whatever it takes to hang onto religion. I think I may be one of those people. Hey Farasha, while my worst nightmare wasn't waking up from fundyism, I experienced somewhat similar things too. Maybe this sounds much too easy, but... what falls apart is not really the world, but rather your previous conception of the world - or one could say, you've lost your old road map to life but life itself still awaits you. You just have to look out for a new and better map. That can be very hard, no doubt. But the one thing not to do, I think, is to just sit there and do nothing. There's a life out there that awaits you! Of course, you may well make a mistake or three when you go out and examine it... but then mistakes happen to everyone. "...for those who never try, they are sure to fail..." (Manowar) Be daring! You're quite sure to stumble every so often, like we all do, but as long as you get up, dust yourself off and continue, you have not lost As for your last paragraph, I think that's exactly the reason why people join fanatic cults (unless they were born into them of course - then they never really had a choice). The world is a very strange and often confusing place, and a fanatic worldview - no matter what type of fanaticism - offers the comfort of simplicity. For a fanatic there are usually only few ways to choose from in any situation, and one of them will always be the obvious best choice. Just my musings... hope to have helped a bit? Posted by: likeafish Jan 11 2004, 08:57 AM Farasha, It is okay to grieve for what you have lost. Give yourself a lot of time for that, because that is what is happening. And it is also okay to let what is good about your faith remain. By that I mean, like fond memories, it is okay to still let any wisdom you drew from Xtianity to stay with you. Love your neighbor. Forgive. Be merciful. You can keep these things in your heart and let all those conundrums and logical inconsistencies go. I have enjoyed reading this thread because it reminds me of myself, and for so many others here I am sure it is like a microcosm of what we have all gone through. You began with the big questions that theologians have grappled with through the ages, and then finally the truth--that the scales were falling from your eyes, that the foundations weren't holding anymore, that you couldn't make it work in your head and, consequently, in your heart. For you, it seems it is more important to be intellectually honest and personally authentic than it is to cling to a belief system that doesn't make sense for you. If that is what is happening, that you are searching honestly for what is true, than you are on the path, the path that will bring you to yourself. If it helps, a good, benevolent and loving god would (logically) honor that because you are attempting to live into your true being--that which you were "created" to be, to put it in a theological context. I have said this before to others here how I envy the younger ones here who have come to these realizations as they have at the beginning of their adult life. I am in the middle, at 43, and my "apostacy" has taken all of those years. It is much like making a painting. When someone asks me how long it took me to paint a picture I tell them (depending upon how open I feel I can be) "that painting took me 43 years." Truth takes your whole life. That's been my experience. I liked what Doug had to say. Doug is also very funny and needs to do some stand-up, but that's another conversation (stick around and he'll have you laughing). QUOTE If I may suggest that you allow your humanity to return, to fill in what christianity took. I know from looking at your web site that you are a very talented young artist (the rest of you check out her web site for some great fiction and some hints on good classical music). There is a richness there that you are only on the cusp of discovering. Let that "fill in" and remind you who you are. And as for ultimate answers, there are many that can be provided by other, external sources, but the ones that will be real for you will come from within you. I have a feeling you know this already, have sensed it in the music YOU make, or in the words that YOU write. From all your Xtian training, what I just said may, at first, sound egoistic. Maybe it is. But who is all that creating for anyway? It does not exist in a vacuum. It is certainly yours, but it also your gift, your gift to the world, a world of other people. Maybe that is all the transcendent reality one needs to find meaning in life, or better, to participate in creating that meaning. There is always a relationship implied in anything you create. If you are concerned about living for others, I suspect you will do it best through your art. Read, reflect, grieve, come here and rant or weep or puzzle over things. Trust in your own experience, in the intuitions of your own heart, and the integrity of your own mind. You will/have not suddenly lost all footing. The Earth and the stars are still there. You are still you. There is music and beauty and friends and your one precious life. It is yours and it is just beginning. I want to affirm you, but I am also realistic. Your freedom will at times feel burdensome, and it is because it means you are responsible for making the meaning in your life. Xtianity doesn't teach one how to do that. Meaning is supplied. But being free of pre-conceived notions means you get to say what is real for you, what matters, what needs to be done, and who you are. You will have to start from scratch, that's not easy. That is where I am at mid-life after a life of thinking god was guiding into something, but coming up always confused and befuddled. But starting from scratch can be the best there is. The best meals I've ever eaten were prepared from scratch, not out of a box. They took imagination, a little boldness, some risk, and a dash of something unique that no one else would have come up with. You are an artist. That is exactly what you do, isn't it? You are among friends Farasha. Steve Posted by: Farasha Jan 11 2004, 12:00 PM Hey, thanks for all your encouragement, guys. It will definately help, if not now, then in the future. As for now, I am definately experiencing bitterness toward everything, toward life itself. Perhaps that is the first step of grief. Well I just wanted to say thanks again. You guys are great. Posted by: Matthew Jan 11 2004, 12:11 PM QUOTE Alright, I really need to let this out. Here is my question for you ex-Christians: how did you move on, after realizing that everything you've ever known is false?? Up until about two weeks ago, I had been a Christian my entire life, heck, it WAS my entire life. And now the deeper I delve into it, the more I can't accept it as truth. How do you deal with that?!?! It's like waking up from the Matrix....all I've ever known is a lie....and the one thing I had to look forward to when things get really rough, an afterlife, doesn't exist. How do you move on when your whole world has fallen apart?? I handle it one day at a time. I don't ever plan on returning to Christianity so I have to take responsibility for my actions. For me, Christianity wasn't my whole life, my "all-consuming desire" as I think it has been put in the past. I wrestled with doubts and personal disappointments so it came as no real suprise when I discovered biblical errancy. It came actually as a breath of relief if anything. Matthew Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 11 2004, 01:14 PM I was hoping you'd show up here, Steve. Somehow, I just knew you'd be able to relate just like you could with me all those months ago. And thanks for the kudos for her website. I checked it out myself last night, though I forgot to compliment on it. You really are a great person, Farasha, and I've already developed tremendous respect for your talents, tastes, and abilities--to say nothing of who you are. I even bookmarked the site, and I would like to comment on a few things, if that would be alright with you. As I said in my previous post, you and I seem to have a lot in common. QUOTE As for now, I am definately experiencing bitterness toward everything, toward life itself. Be bitter! Ask the other members--especially those who were around when I first registered--and you'll find I was one of the most bitter, cynical bastards ever walked this Earth. I hated everything and almost everyone. I was sick of the bull shit life I was going through, I was sick of all the pressure constantly put on me by my family's religion, I was sick of the Old Man trying to control my life; and the list goes on. There's nothing wrong with the feelings of negativity. They're just as natural as--to use a bad and possibly comical analogy--having to go pee when you wake up in the morning. Let it out. That's part of what these forums are for. You've alredy discovered that it can help to post your thoughts and feelings here and thus work them out in your own mind for your own benefit, now utilize another purpose: to get it out of your system. When you're pissed, log onto the forums and rant and rave until you feel better. Decry every living human being as the stupid pile of wasted matter that they are. Connie's post about jackass western-world Godzilla fans is a perfect example! Just come on and spew. God knows I've done it enough times. Other than that, as everyone else has said, just deal with it one day at a time. If you're having trouble with something, or you're getting frustrated with a problem in your life, come on the boards and tell us about it. Maybe we can help. I can't tell you the number of times I've been helped by advice from the other members. "An' remember, I'm pullin' for ya', w'ere all in this together." That one's for you, Chef. Posted by: chefranden Jan 11 2004, 03:52 PM Thanks Woody, now where the hell did I put that duct tape? Posted by: Derek Jan 11 2004, 05:37 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 10 2004, 11:30 AM) You're right, of course, to see everything in black-and-white, such as I seem to have presented it, is neither entirely true nor entirely accurate. This world has so many shades of gray it's kind of amazing we can see any other color sometimes. I agree that there are shades of gray any time we try to make a value judgement about good and bad in this practical, daily, life, these shades are mostly due to information we don't have. I'm curious though, in regards to the erroneous/non-erroneous dichotomy, since we are talking about pure theory and defining our own terms (and thus having no lack of information in this context) where are these shades of gray? To clarify, in theoretical mathematics, we do not have to wonder about variables, because we can define them, but in practical application, unforseen variables affects our variables. In the above post, we're using only theory, is there gray? Thanks for the post! Posted by: Doug2 Jan 11 2004, 07:20 PM QUOTE Doug is also very funny and needs to do some stand-up Thanks Steve. I always appreciate a compliment. QUOTE where are these shades of gray? Nearly everywhere. Should we go to war, how should we punish criminals, how much of our money should go to help others. Most of the questions in life don't have black and white answers, except for those that believe they have been given the answers by god. Even those that have dogma can't decide on everything. Now, if we did know everything that may make everything black and white, but we do not. Posted by: Farasha Jan 11 2004, 11:21 PM Alright, so I have a question for all the ex-Christians here: how many your families are Christian? And how did you go about telling them of your de-conversion? All the other memebers in my family are 100% Christians. To tell them I'm not a Christian anymore would be worse than telling them that I'm pregnant, a heroin addict, and a serial killer. I am almost certain my parents would kick me out of the house. (I don't live at home currently, but am thinking about moving back next year in the even that I transfer schools.) If I ever did tell them, it would not be soon. Posted by: Doug2 Jan 12 2004, 12:11 AM QUOTE All the other memebers in my family are 100% Christians. To tell them I'm not a Christian anymore would be worse than telling them that I'm pregnant, a heroin addict, and a serial killer. I am almost certain my parents would kick me out of the house. (I don't live at home currently, but am thinking about moving back next year in the even that I transfer schools.) If I ever did tell them, it would not be soon. Same with me. My entire family is fundy. Many are pastors. I even considered going into that profession (Thank zeus I didn't), though I did do some (much) ministry work at my university. I haven't told my family either. Being an atheist is prime evil to them and the absolute worst thing you could do. For some good dialogue on this topic, check out the thread http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1424 Posted by: Doug2 Jan 12 2004, 12:15 AM I think you mentioned that you are currently going to a christian university. We had another student of a christian university on here not too long ago. I haven't seen him lately though. Maybe he is still hanging around. Anyway, he was going through the same thing as you. He had recently deconverted and was wondering if he should change schools. I think he decided to stay at his school, but I would posit that is not the choice for everyone. Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 12 2004, 01:15 AM I should've weighed in earlier. Blast my not having interweb at home... Well, my turn to weigh in. Dealing with family- as with most things, I was forthright, honest, and perhaps a bit... ah... tactless. I told the truth how I saw it, and suffered the consequences. I'm not so close to my father anymore as a result- but my mother, sis, and bro didn't burn me at the stake. If they love you, they'll stick with you. If not, they probably shouldn't asociate with you- I am not so sure how close you are to your family- but I feel blunt honesty is the best policy in most instances. As for the bitterness, it's unhealthy. It's turned me into a sadistic monster. Try to focus on other things- find an outlet. I'd recommend a bit more primal, destructive outlet- it's a bit more conductive of such things than art or music, I've found. Boxing, fencing... something... I dunno... Try to keep a sense of humor about things... if ya do tell'em, maybe you should ween into it by telling them you're pregnant... Posted by: Doug2 Jan 12 2004, 02:22 AM QUOTE maybe you should ween into it by telling them you're pregnant That is how I was planning to tell my family. Mom, Dad, I am pregnant, and the baby is the anti-christ. Posted by: likeafish Jan 12 2004, 06:14 AM See, I told you Doug should be a comedian! I haven't said a word. I have the advantage of distance and perhaps my age--I am my own person and not dependent on them in any way. But I struggled with this for a while, and still do, though not on a daily basis because of something the wise webmaster Dave said to me when I first came here. It is important for me to be authentic as to who I am--to be honest, etc. But with this issue, my family situation is so saturated in the faith that, well, I would be an outcast and inflict unimaginable pain on top of already existing suffering. The real issue is my mother who is caring for my father with Alzheimer's. She leans heavily on her faith, and that's okay as far as I'm concerned. What Dave said to me when I brought this up made a lot of sense. He told me that compassion is always the best course. He's right. If you think that the pain you would cause at this point in your life would be too much for your parents to bear, let's say, or make things just too bloody awful when they do not need to be right now in your life, then there's no reason you need to announce anything as far as I can see. I'm sure there are others who might disagree. I think it is a case by case situation. If you are dependent upon them then it could really get ugly, so now may not be the best time. Maybe now is the time to prepare yourself for that day, to get used to the idea, to form your ideas and to be comfortable with who you are as this person who no longer accepts their faith. For me, it has to do with weighing my mother's pain against my need to be fully understood or "known" for who I really am in my family. For now, I keep it to my chest, and continue to love my family and support my mom and take my dad to church when I go for a visit. Steve Posted by: Derek Jan 12 2004, 03:09 PM QUOTE (Doug2 @ Jan 11 2004, 07:20 PM) QUOTE where are these shades of gray? Nearly everywhere. Should we go to war, how should we punish criminals, how much of our money should go to help others. Most of the questions in life don't have black and white answers, except for those that believe they have been given the answers by god. Even those that have dogma can't decide on everything. Now, if we did know everything that may make everything black and white, but we do not. With respect, I believe you missed the point. I agree that our life is full of gray, but this question was referring to theory (which is not real life - see above discussion). In theory, we can construct an environment such that there are no shades. At least that's my opinion, feel free to demonstrate otherwise. Could be I just can't express myself properly, so here's an example: I'm treating a patient. There are several options. Because I don't have full knowledge of their body (it's impossible), I might suggest the 'best' treatment, but things beyond my perceptions may influence the condition, such that only sometimes that would be the best treatment. Another person presenting the same way may be best treated another way, though I would in all likelihood treat them the same way because of the limited medical knowledge of 2004. If I recreate the situation as a computer simulation, based on mathematics, I can have ALL the relevent data presented to me, and so can make a CERTAIN (no gray) decision. This decision is appropriate in ALL such cases, such as the data is the same. The real-life unknown factors are not relevent, because they are not within the simulations parameters, since they are not known. Posted by: Doug2 Jan 12 2004, 05:43 PM QUOTE He told me that compassion is always the best course. He's right. Oh, very good advice. Unfortunately though I am not sure I have the option of keeping it quiet forever. My family would always want to know about my involvement in church and other such issues. There are only so many fibs I can come up with (or wish to come up with) on these subjects. In addition is the predicament of family and friends asking advice. If I tell them what I really believe is best, many times it would show that I now longer believe the same way. QUOTE In theory, we can construct an environment such that there are no shades. I agree, that in theory this may be possible, but in doing so you would negate any purpose for free will, and it would require an outside source of knowledge that had all the answers and decided what was right in all cases. Example: There are two parties claiming ownership to the same land. Who should get it? Maybe we know everything and know that party1 claimed the land first and should therefor own it. Doesn't that decision require us to make a moral judgment that first claim is what gives ownership rights? Maybe we also know that even though party1 should own it, they will be destroyed on that land if they take it. Should we give it to party2? Maybe, but doesn't that require a moral decision beyond a right and wrong, or a binary decision? In your example we have a need to decide what treatment to give a patient. What if the patient decides he just wants to die, even if he can be cured? Is it ok to kill him? Now, there is no problem making these decisions as black and white if you are a god, lets say, or have the rule book from god, but I would still say even in a society with complete knowledge and no god setting rules, there really is no clear right or wrong. Two electrons bump into each other, both wanting to orbit the same nucleus. Which should be allow to do so? Both came in at the same vectors and would eternally push the other out of the way, no allowing either to do so. Well I'm not going to allow electron1 to orbit the nucleus, because doing so would facilitate the end of the universe. Well is the end of the universe a bad thing? Maybe in my opinion. But that requires a decision based on subjective morals. Posted by: Farasha Jan 12 2004, 06:01 PM QUOTE Unfortunately though I am not sure I have the option of keeping it quiet forever. My family would always want to know about my involvement in church and other such issues. There are only so many fibs I can come up with (or wish to come up with) on these subjects. Yeah, I'm in the same predicament. To make things worse, if I move home next year (which I was considering), my parents informed me that I would have to attend church every week, be involved in the college-age Bible study, and teach Sunday School. If I refuse to do these things, I will not be able to live at home. Which is fine, I can probably find housing elsewhere, but the main problem still remains: that I'd have to tell them WHY I don't wat to live at home. Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 12 2004, 07:56 PM Never fucking fails! Spend a half hour typing, and I forget to log in, and.... BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!! QUOTE Doug is also very funny and needs to do some stand-up I argee- you have some pretty funny posts on the site- although this joke was mine... (mumble, mumble) Ah well, I suck again. QUOTE He told me that compassion is always the best course. He's right. LIKE HELL IT IS!!! Compassion breeds weakness. And weakness will breed a greater need for compassion. I'm sick of all this love-your-neighbor-don't-hurt-anything-everyone-is-the-same-and-wonderful h |