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Posted by: SparkleMotion Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM

Okay, as a real, living Christian lat me ask a question that has no doubt been posed here by other Christians. When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered? Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer? How long were you a Christian? Just wondering. I know personally, I experience serious answered prayer pretty regularly, it helps my faith in a way I guess, just wondering what your experience with Christ has been. Please no flaming, if you wanna debate referr back to my "Open Invitation" post.
Michael

Posted by: phoenix Oct 18 2004, 08:39 PM

i was christian for 18 years.
and all those prayers that were answered? given the time i waited for most of them, sheer timing and coincidence. and the rest - things bound to happen, really. not one of them, when i think back on it, should be deemed the work of a deity.
people always seem to remember the 'answered' ones...

Posted by: Slayer-2004 Oct 18 2004, 08:42 PM

ya... I thought during my 10 years that my prayers were being answered . I didnt really stop to think about the ones that were not , except I just brushed them off as "not what god intended" Then when something I prayed for came true it became a miracle in my mind . I never really thought of this till I stopped being a christian . Now that I look back on it I see it was pure chance .

Posted by: Casey Oct 18 2004, 08:44 PM

QUOTE

people always seem to remember the 'answered' ones...

(Phoenix)

They sure do. Please don't take this as a flame SparkleMotion, but there's times I think christians are just like punters (horseplayers) who every now and then hit a lucky streak. Ask punters about their winning bets and prepare to be bored for at least an hour; ask 'em about their losses and watch how fast they shut up.
Casey

Posted by: Cerise Oct 18 2004, 08:45 PM

QUOTE

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

Sure. But there were also many times when I cried out to God for help and was not delivered. And I think those times really count a lot more.

Posted by: Reality Amplifier Oct 18 2004, 08:51 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

No.

QUOTE

Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer?

No.

QUOTE

How long were you a Christian?

18 years.

QUOTE

I know personally, I experience serious answered prayer pretty regularly, it helps my faith in a way I guess, just wondering what your experience with Christ has been.

Miracles seem to happen in direct proportion to the observers knowledge/ignorance of the event in question.

I really doubt you ever experienced what I would define as an actual miracle. Unusual events occur all the time without evidence of a supernatural hand at work. Unusual event hardly qualify as miracles though. Impossible events (miracles) are reported by believers to occur, but strangely, those impossible events are never documented to occur when there are cameras present or others outside of the belief circle to verify it.

Posted by: pitchu Oct 18 2004, 08:55 PM

Heard a quote recently on the definition of 'luck' -- good or bad:
"Luck is probability taken personally."

I think prayer is the same.

Posted by: Reality Amplifier Oct 18 2004, 08:59 PM

QUOTE (pitchu @ Oct 18 2004, 08:55 PM)

Heard a quote recently on the definition of 'luck' -- good or bad:
"Luck is probability taken personally."

Luck is where preparation meets opportunity.

Posted by: spamandham Oct 18 2004, 09:17 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 11:35 PM)

My daughter recently underwent heart surgery. She was in intensive care for 3 days. During that time, a very devout Christian family had their 2 year old daughter in an nearby room. I heard the cries and pleas to god to save that child. I spoke to the mother, who clearly had faith during that time of trouble and told me of the thousands of people praying for their daughter. They brought in a stream of ministers to pray for her, including a couple of relatives who were ministers.

They pulled the plug on her the day we left the PICU.

Care to discuss unanswered prayers as well?

Posted by: John Doe Oct 18 2004, 09:28 PM

1. No.
2. No.
3. 25 years.

There were a couple times when I prayed for "easy" prayers to be answered, but most prayers (especially the important ones) went unanswered time and time again. I finally decided I had to stop praying because it was more damaging to my faith when I did pray.

Posted by: ratbag Oct 18 2004, 09:30 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

No. I always considered myself independant - I always relied on myself to solve my problems. I got out pretty young (12ish), so I never got to the point of thinking prayer could result in something different; It was on the level of leaving food out for Santa - something you did because that was how the story went and, like a dream, it was never quite real and believable. Although Santa was real, cos he ate the food.

QUOTE

Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer?

No. Everything has a (no less inspiring) natural cause.

Posted by: Outsider Oct 18 2004, 10:51 PM

I actually had an answered prayer. I was dirt poor, but I gave my Sunday tithe anyway. During the collection I wondered (sorta prayed, sorry this may not count) how I was going to eat lunch without the $20 I just gave. I went to the local Quizno's for lunch with a few dollars and when I was in line a girl gave me a 50% off coupon so I could get a full size sandwich instead of a half size I was planning to get. Pretty cool, huh?

There was this other time I was at a revival and saw a man crying out to be healed. A friend and I saw this and prayed for the man to be healed by God. Of course, he went home in his wheelchair.

Upon reflecting on my former christian life, I would gladly give back my answered prayer for 50% off on a Quizno sandwich for the unanswered prayer for that man's healing.

Posted by: Fyrefly Oct 18 2004, 11:18 PM

QUOTE

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

Nope.

QUOTE

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

Nope. I was suicidal for the entirety of 9th grade, and no matter how much I prayed I didn't get an answer. I probably wouldn't be here right now if I hadn't discovered atheism - it was my way out.

QUOTE

Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer?

Nope.

QUOTE

How long were you a Christian?

15 years.

Posted by: Zoe Grace Oct 19 2004, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

I DID experience what I might interpret as "answers to prayers" However, the costs (loss of sense of self, thought policing, obsession with the bible, fear of hell and the rapture, immorality of biblegod, illogic of fundamentalism) were too high for this "feel good feeling."

HOWEVER, As a pagan, I have also had the same success rate with spells and prayers to Isis, that I had with prayers to Jesus, the upside is...I don't lose my sense of self, there is no thought policing, the bible is just another book, hell doesn't exist, the rapture is for kooks, I don't have to explain away the evil of my deity (you can count the smites of Isis on one hand, and she was having a bad day), i can think and follow what i believe is logical and dump the rest.

I'm happier as a pagan than I ever was as a christian. I think that most "prayer" or "spells" work on the "placebo effect" principle...and in theory it doesn' t matter if you pray to jesus or a toaster oven.

Posted by: MrSpooky Oct 19 2004, 01:36 AM

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, right?

Posted by: jaded Oct 19 2004, 03:47 AM

Yup, I have been absolutely, positively 100% sure that anything good that happened was an answered prayer. I had a pretty hard time with unanswered prayers though. Every time I had an unanswered prayer and really needed a healing, an answer, or a break I would dive into the bible and study harder. I finally read enough of it that I studied my way right out. Looking back I can't attribute any of my answered prayers to any kind of supernatural or mystical powers. Good things happen to people, good people come forward, injuries heal, diseases go into remission, etc. All proven and documented.

How many documented and verified cases of answered prayer are there? Why is it that no faith healer works in conjunction with a doctor to verify claims. WHy is it no medical journals have posted positive studies on prayer (aside from the stress relieving benefits).

I have heard plenty of arguments and personal stories since deconverting and not one involved anything that couldn't be explained. Sure, you can say that I don't want to believe, but in reality I wish I could.

Posted by: Zach Oct 19 2004, 05:23 AM

SparkleMotion-

I had a success rate of about 50%, which is about what I'd expect if I was praying to a nonexistent god.

But here's a thought- why don't you take a month off of praying to the Christian god and pray to your shoe instead. I mean, really, sincerely pray- put the shoe on your bed and get down on your knees, clasp your hands and everything. Then keep a written record of everything you pray for from your shoe- good health, job success, whatever- and mark down what prayers are answered and which aren't. Then come back here, post the results, and we'll see how effective prayer actually is.

By the way, still waiting for your email reply...

Posted by: I Broke Free Oct 19 2004, 06:11 AM

I found this over at TribForces this morning.

Is this kind of miraculous answer to prayer you are talking about?

QUOTE

I was talking to Leslie a little while ago while making Nicky his lunch. He decided he wanted soda to drink and I figured it was early enough in the day to let him have a little bit. Only one problem...no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get the cap off the soda bottle! I tried and tried explaining to him that the cap was just too tight for me to get off but he started getting more than a little upset. After all, I had told him it was OK...he was anticipating soda with lunch (this has become a real treat for him)...and then I just couldn't give him any.

So, what does he do? He sits down on the floor and prays...yes, prays...for me to be able to open the bottle. And guess what?...............

No sooner than he had finished saying his prayer.....I got the cap off and he got his soda..............

Responses...

QUOTE

Praise God that just filled my heart with gladness.

QUOTE

Yes made you happy ,praise GOD .

QUOTE

Thats just grate......thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning.....4:40am at work at the Juneau Alaska Airport.

Thank you for raising you son to Know Jesus!

The only thing I ever prayed for was to have god show to me he existed. I guess I should have started with a bottle of soda and worked my way up.

Posted by: Mo Biggsley Oct 19 2004, 06:25 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered? Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer? How long were you a Christian?

Not being delivered was when I began seriously doubting the faith I was raised in. I was sick for nearly a year and a half from the age of 14 to the age of 15. I missed a lot of school and was at risk of being held back. I prayed to God constantly to "lift me out of sickness." I received hands on healing and many prayers from my fellow church goers. I wasn't getting better. Eventually, I decided that I was focusing too much energy on being delivered and that every time I prayed to God or read my Bible, I only had an empty feeling. I knew God wasn't real, because I had to force myself to believe in him. I stopped worrying about whether or not God was going to deliver me or not and just started giving an effort to get back on track with my schoolwork and tried to start living my life as a healthy kid in general. I stopped going to church. I stopped reading the Bible. I stopped talking to others about how Jesus delivered them from Hell. I stopped locking myself away in a closet for hours praying to God. I started getting better. Before long, I wasn't going to the doctor every week to do test to find out why I was sick. My strength returned. I was able to attend school regularly again. I was able to make up the many tests I had missed.

When I stopped believing in God, I got better. The doctors never explained what my ailment was. They thought it was possible that I had both a really bad case of mono and possibly spinal meningitis at the same time, but I'm thinking I took religion so seriously that I was making myself sick.

Regardless, my life got a lot better by not believing in God, so I guess I can say that I was delivered, not by God but from the fanatical belief in Him.

Posted by: Mr.Meme Oct 19 2004, 06:37 AM

Sparkle,

You might be interested in researching other religions and see how they also have their prayers "answered" with striking similarity.

If you pray for anything, it's all too easy to claim that the prayer was answered no matter the outcome. One can interpret the unfolding of events as the divine hand because an invisible, ethereal hand can be fitted around virtually any event, or any thing.

If you pray for Joe to get a job, and he does get the job, then praise God! He got the job!

If he does'nt get the job. Then Praise God! God has better plans for Joe!

Or...God's timing is not ours (ah, classic!)

Or if you really want to induce a quixotical scenario, then it was that ole' devil that stole Joe's opportunity away.

I read on this forum a while back, (a post by AUB I believe), where he mentioned that their is absolutely no situation that cannot be exploited by xtians in regard to whether prayer is effective. This is so true. The results of prayer are all-encompassing. Even if you lost your job, your house burned, the wife ran off with another man, and your dog died, then there's always the story of Job to invoke.

I challenge any xtian to present a scenario that cannot be exploited by their prayer claims! Perhaps this is the aspect of the prayer meme that gives it the ability to deceive.

Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Oct 19 2004, 08:43 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 10:35 PM)

Umm nope.
Not at time of death in a family or a time of a test. Some one doing a drive by shooting at me. Getting lost in a unfamiliar part of the country. Getting a flat tire. Doing my job in the army. Faith is not a option, It all fell on me to handle these events.

Life is no bed of roses and somtimes it can be cruel and other times it can be wonderful. The wonderful part is whats worth it. Even the bad parts from a certian point of view.

I was a chrtistian untill 26. I learned that somtimes things work out and somtimes they do not, it depends on how you are able to adapt to events and how well prepaired you are for them. How stong of a person are you mentally. You got to have self-reliance, motivation, determination, character, Intestinal-Fortitude, integrity
morality, optimism, ingenuity and acknowledmant of some sense of the Golden rule.

Learning how get the right information to distinguish what is possible and what is not.
Knowing what you can do and what you can not do. I guess you jsut gotta keep your eyes and ears open. If you use your common sense and logic then you won�t have much to worry about. If something does not seem right then it probably isn�t. Never assume anything because that is the fist step to failure. Hard part is trying to keep that in mind.

I don't let things get me down. Some times you just have to lick your wounds. You may not accomplish everything. That�s part of life. Be the good sport. Some things will not go your way. Make the best of it and adapt and learn so the next time you will be better off. Other times you just have to step back and take a break and come back to it. Most times you will get a better ideal on how to deal with it. You get what you put in. Things have a way of working them selves out. You just got to give it some time.

Having some good inperration also helps.
�I don�t know what you believe in but I will say this� �You have the strength with in you. You have to dig deep down inside and find it. You can do it if you put your mind to it�

I am the captian of my destiny. I make the choices the influence the outcome. I also understand that there are other events that I have no control or may not be aware of that affect my destiny. Determinism is in charge and affects what you think is free will.

Atheist are like cats. We each have our own different and similar philosophies of life.

Posted by: SmallStone Oct 19 2004, 08:50 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered?

No.

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer?

No.

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

How long were you a Christian?

Long enough to learn about the tendency of the human mind to impose order where no order exists.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Oct 19 2004, 08:56 AM

QUOTE (I Broke Free @ Oct 19 2004, 06:11 AM)

I found this over at TribForces this morning.

Is this kind of miraculous answer to prayer you are talking about?

QUOTE

Responses...

QUOTE

Praise God that just filled my heart with gladness.

QUOTE

Yes made you happy ,praise GOD .

QUOTE

Thats just grate......thanks for putting a smile on my face this morning.....4:40am at work at the Juneau Alaska Airport.

Thank you for raising you son to Know Jesus!

The only thing I ever prayed for was to have god show to me he existed. I guess I should have started with a bottle of soda and worked my way up.

So that's what god was doing while they pulled the plug on the little girl that spamandham was talking about...

Posted by: SmallStone Oct 19 2004, 08:57 AM

QUOTE (Outsider @ Oct 18 2004, 10:51 PM)

That is pretty cool. I've had similar experiences many times. Here's one.

I was 17 and living hundreds of miles from home in a motel room. I had a commission-only sales job. No sales for a few weeks. I can go about 2 days without eating before it gets unpleasant. So, I went over to the grocery store to steal some food. Lo and behold, what do I find? $10 laying on the floor of the grocery store.

Posted by: Libertus Oct 19 2004, 09:08 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion)

Okay, as a real, living Christian lat me ask a question that has no doubt been posed here by other Christians. 1. When you were a Christian, were there not many times when you cried out to God for help and were delivered? 2. Did you never even once experience seemingly miraculously answered prayer? 3. How long were you a Christian? Just wondering. 4. I know personally, I experience serious answered prayer pretty regularly, it helps my faith in a way I guess, just wondering what your experience with Christ has been. Please no flaming, if you wanna debate referr back to my "Open Invitation" post.
Michael

1. No.

2. Sure, why not? I took the liberty of placing the key word in your question in bold print for you.

3. I was a not-a-religion-it's-a-relationship fundy for about 5 years. Before that I was a bit of an apathetic xtian for about 19 years.

4. Good for you, wanna cookie?

I hope that clears it all up.

Libertus

Posted by: Reach Oct 19 2004, 09:26 AM

QUOTE (Outsider @ Oct 18 2004, 11:51 PM)

That's it, isn't it, Outsider? For every little (relatively, trivial) prayer that seemed to get answered, there were countless other prayers of tremendous importance and impact, be it personal or societal or what-have-you, that irrefutably did not get answered.

Do you think Zach might be on to something with his idea of trying out the shoe?

Reach

Posted by: bob Oct 19 2004, 09:31 AM

QUOTE (SmallStone @ Oct 19 2004, 08:57 AM)

QUOTE (Outsider @ Oct 18 2004, 10:51 PM)

That's nothing, I was at a flee market a couple years ago and found a money clip with $360 in it, and I didn't even need the money.

Last summer me and my youngest son pulled into a space at Wal Mart, got out of the car, and blowing our way were three $20 bills. Again, I didn't need the money.

A couple weeks ago, I once again pulled into a space at Wal Mart. Laying on the lot beside my car was a couple bills rolled up. I looked around and didn't see anyone looking for lost cash, so I grabbed them and put them in my pocket. I figured if I saw anyone looking for money when I cam out I'd give it to them. No one was. I forgot about it and drove home. Later, when emptying my pockets I remembered the money. It was $69 rolled up.
The next day I had to replace the rear brakes on my wifes car. Guess how much it cost....

$70.

But once again, it wasn't at a time when I really needed the money. But thanks any way Jesus. I'll take it when it comes.

Posted by: The Silent One Oct 19 2004, 12:21 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

Once in a while. Of course this is something I've always pondered, would it have happened if I hadn't prayed? Of course having prayed I can never know that answer, because I choose one course over the other, likewise, if I hadn't prayed and it didn't happen, would it have still NOT happened if I had? We can't know, and that's truly one of the great points, if prayer had a 100% success rate, we could THEN call it miraculous. As it is, it ends up as NOTHING other than statistical odds, the possibility of it happening one way or another. Like choosing a piece of cake over a slice of pie. Would you have enjoyed the other more? You'll never know because you can't go back to that exact moment, so you take a chance, a guess. It all breaks downs to the odds, nothing miraculous there. Once you realize that, it takes all the "Look what GAWD did!" out of it.

QUOTE

How long were you a Christian?

20 years, 4 of which was spent as a part-time and then later full-time minister/evangelist.

QUOTE

I experience serious answered prayer pretty regularly, it helps my faith in a way I guess, just wondering what your experience with Christ has been.

If you don't mind me asking, what do you pray for? Have you ever had an event that you would call TRULY miraculous, in otherwords, something that didn't already have good odds at happening. For example I once prayed to find a new car when my old one broke down, and 2 weeks later I found one exactly at my price, and what I needed.

Miraculous? No. I was going out every single day and looking. My chances of finding one were already quite high. I didn't realize that at the time though, and gave all glory to GAWD. This last year I found myself in the same boat, and without every praying found a perfect car, even better than the last time. Why? ODDS.

Posted by: Iconoclastithon Oct 19 2004, 12:51 PM

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 19 2004, 05:23 AM)

I guess that one shoe would then have two soles!!!

Posted by: Khan Noonien Singh Oct 19 2004, 01:47 PM

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 19 2004, 06:23 AM)

I like! I like!

Posted by: SparkleMotion Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM

"But here's a thought- why don't you take a month off of praying to the Christian god and pray to your shoe instead. I mean, really, sincerely pray- put the shoe on your bed and get down on your knees, clasp your hands and everything."
No. I believe that would be Idolatry. I DO know that for the 16 years that I NEVER prayed, very few things went well. My parents were drug addicts/alchaholics, we were poor, I was having serious relational problems with "friends", and had to be moved from parent to grandparent to friends house, etc. Now, I am a christian, neither of my parents do drugs, drink, or lose thier jobs, and pretty much all of the things I have prayed for have come to pass. And the VAST majority of the (relatively few) prayers I have had go completely unanswered, I can see an OBVIOUS way (one that requires absolutely NO twisting) that, had my prayer been answered, it would have created a very bad situation for me.
"Then come here and post the results and we will see how effective prayer actually is."
If I did, and no prayers were answered and everything went to crap, would you believe?
"By the way, still waiting for your email reply... "
As I said, be patient, 17 credit hours + job + EIGHT people who want to debate = you having to be patient. I would be happy to post the four replies to others that I HAVE sent though if you would like.

Michael

Posted by: bob Oct 19 2004, 05:29 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

I DO know that for the 16 years that I NEVER prayed, very few things went well. My parents were drug addicts/alchaholics, we were poor, I was having serious relational problems with "friends", and had to be moved from parent to grandparent to friends house, etc. Now, I am a christian, neither of my parents do drugs, drink, or lose thier jobs, and pretty much all of the things I have prayed for have come to pass. And the VAST majority of the (relatively few) prayers I have had go completely unanswered, I can see an OBVIOUS way (one that requires absolutely NO twisting) that, had my prayer been answered, it would have created a very bad situation for me.

You do understand that some situations get better, and some get worse regardless of prayer, don't you? Is there any way for you, me, or anyone to know, that is KNOW that your parents finally breaking the drug habit had anything to do with the actions of a supernatural being? I ask because I know that there are people out there who manage to give up addictions without the aid of prayer. Please don't offer up that, I don't know for sure that they were not prayed for, because you don't know that they were. If we go down that road, you will have to maintain the belief that no one ever overcomes any suffering without prayer. I don't think you want to defend that stance for long.

Posted by: ChefRanden Oct 19 2004, 06:09 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 08:35 PM)

No!

And 44 years I've been waiting for my bike too!

Posted by: Asimov Oct 19 2004, 06:14 PM

QUOTE (spamandham @ Oct 18 2004, 09:17 PM)

That's a very sad story, spam. My heart goes out to that Christian family who lost their child.

I find it ironic though.

Posted by: ericf Oct 19 2004, 06:23 PM

lol, when it comes to the hospital, I am half tempted to believe God only saves those who are brave enough to curse him on their deathbeds. At least it worked for my father.

He said things about God that made the surgeon (a Christian) turn pale. He also was quoting the Exorcist during the insertion of his central line (all the veins had collapsed and they could not get a standard IV into him and had to dig a needle into a main tube in his chest). That bothered the surgeon as well.

All those pussies that plead to God have no balls. God doesn't want to save the pussies... those of us who will use the last ounce of strength we can muster to spit in his face -- we're the ones he loves.

[Sorry... I have no idea where I was going with this.]

Posted by: Asimov Oct 19 2004, 07:02 PM

QUOTE (ericf @ Oct 19 2004, 06:23 PM)

[Sorry... I have no idea where I was going with this.]

Who knows, it was cool though.

Posted by: spamandham Oct 19 2004, 07:06 PM

Scientific studies have been conducted to investigate the power of prayer. It would seem that god likes to make outcomes match pure chance just to fool us heathens into thinking there's no power behind those prayers. He truly does work in mysterious ways.

Posted by: Cerise Oct 19 2004, 07:43 PM

QUOTE (ericf @ Oct 19 2004, 06:23 PM)

All those pussies that plead to God have no balls. God doesn't want to save the pussies... those of us who will use the last ounce of strength we can muster to spit in his face -- we're the ones he loves.

[Sorry... I have no idea where I was going with this.]

Well the last shall be first or something like that. And I'm definitely at the end of the line here.

Posted by: Cerise Oct 19 2004, 07:49 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

And the VAST majority of the (relatively few) prayers I have had go completely unanswered, I can see an OBVIOUS way (one that requires absolutely NO twisting) that, had my prayer been answered, it would have created a very bad situation for me.

Please do explain how granting that Christian family's prayer for God to save their daughter would have created a bad situation.

Also, please explain how granting my prayer of 1) stopping abuse and 2) giving a sure sign of God's existance so I could keep on believing despite having not been saved from abuse would have created any worse situation for me then what I already went through.

Hm?

Posted by: John Doe Oct 19 2004, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

That's interesting I had just the opposite. Prior to my family getting really involved in Christianity life was great....my dad was a Sr. partner in a very successful law firm, we had piles of money, ferrari's, expensive homes, etc.. My parents were model citizens, they only drank socially and were totally opposed to drugs. Me and my sister had lots of friends and did very well in school. But for some reason as time went by my parents started getting involved more in Christianity and then eventually fundamentalism. To make a long story short after years of living for God and the church and "doing the right thing", and lots and lots of prayers, we ended up on the brink of financial ruin, as a family we started drifting away from each other, me and my sister started having problems in school, we were getting into drugs, and my parents finally ended up getting divorced. Over this period of years it seems like the more we prayed and put our trust in god, the worse things got. My mom actually finally left Christianity because she felt god totally and utterly failed her, her marriage and her family.

Having said that, I think Christianity gives some people a reason to turn their lives around. But they turn it around themselves with the help of other people, not because of some mystical magical sky genies granting wishes to people if they only pray hard enough and "have faith". By the same token I think Christianity has the opposite affect on other people. We already had our shit together, we didn't need religion. I am not saying Christianity caused our problems, but the more commited we were to it, the worse our lives seemed to get. I am glad things worked our for you and your family but you should really give credit where it is due....give it to yourselves, not to the inventions of some delusional sheepherders who have been dead for over 2000 years.

Posted by: LloydDobler Oct 19 2004, 10:38 PM

My experience is similar to everyone else's posting here. Except I was taught at a very young age not to pray for stupid shit like a soda or a motorcycle for my birthday. (and god spake unto the pepsi, saying BE OPENED AND GO FORTH TASTEFULLY INTO THE MOUTH OF MY SERVANT... what. the. fuck.)

Praying for those things was considered selfish and irresponsible. So I only prayed for important things like insight into the scripture and healing for suffering people. I still praised god for all the good things in my life, but I never prayed for those things to happen. I just trusted that he would care for me.

For prayer, I had a success rate on par with statistics, only because I wasn't praying for simple things like my favorite episode of the simpsons to be on, my prayers were vastly tilted to the 'unanswered' side. I only have had one direct answer to prayer in my entire life, as I list in my extimony.

I have since watched christian mothers die of cancer leaving small children behind as 200 or more devout, faithful christians prayed for healing. I have watched my own faith and marriage disintegrate in the face of daily prayer and pleas for help.

I was a christian for the better part of 25 years. That's my 2 cents.

Posted by: ratbag Oct 19 2004, 11:02 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

Just as a side note, don't you think that maybe that's just what the writers of the bible had in mind? "Make it a sin - they'll never have the guts find out!"

Couldn't you still try it, then ask for forgiveness or something later?

Posted by: Outsider Oct 20 2004, 03:52 AM

QUOTE (Reach @ Oct 19 2004, 09:26 AM)

QUOTE (Outsider @ Oct 18 2004, 11:51 PM)

I actually had an answered prayer.� I was dirt poor, but I gave my Sunday tithe anyway.� During the collection I wondered (sorta prayed, sorry this may not count) how I was going to eat lunch without the $20 I just gave.� I went to the local Quizno's for lunch with a few dollars and when I was in line a girl gave me a 50% off coupon so I could get a full size sandwich instead of a half size I was planning to get. Pretty cool, huh?

There was this other time I was at a revival and saw a man crying out to be healed.� A friend and I saw this and prayed for the man to be healed by God.� Of course, he went home in his wheelchair.

Upon reflecting on my former christian life, I would gladly give back my answered prayer for 50% off on a Quizno sandwich for the unanswered prayer for that man's healing.

Reach,

You read me like a book! Of course you are an editor...

Another point I was trying to illiustrate was one of probability. So, what do you thing is the probability of me getting a 50% off coupon at Quizno's? Then compare that the probability of a man walking out of his wheelchair?

I think you can see what I am getting at...

Posted by: Outsider Oct 20 2004, 03:56 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

Wow, congratulations on overcoming all those difficulties in your life.

This is not a flame, but a serious question...

Why do you feel you were able to have your prayers answered, but the girl in SpamandHam's post and the man in my post didn't get answers?

Posted by: SmallStone Oct 20 2004, 05:55 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 05:08 PM)

If I did, and no prayers were answered and everything went to crap, would you believe?

Your question is massively flawed. You are assuming that the state of your life is two-valued (1. Pray to god, my life is great, 2. Pray to shoe, my life is crap). Iff you can convincingly demonstrate that those are the only 2 possible states, then yes, I would become a believer iff the shoe did not answer your prayers.

Posted by: atheist_ewtcoma Oct 20 2004, 05:56 AM

QUOTE (ericf @ Oct 19 2004, 08:23 PM)

[Sorry... I have no idea where I was going with this.]

Awsome

That guy has some balls

Posted by: Zach Oct 20 2004, 06:26 AM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 19 2004, 09:08 PM)

No. I believe that would be Idolatry. I DO know that for the 16 years that I NEVER prayed, very few things went well... Now, I am a christian, neither of my parents do drugs, drink, or lose thier jobs, and pretty much all of the things I have prayed for have come to pass.

Okay, so as a Christian you'd think that praying to a shoe is idolatry. I get that, but my point was that if you're so eager to prove the truthfulness of your worldview by debating, surely you'd jump at the chance to prove the efficacy of prayer through a simple experiment.

But if you're balking at idolatry, let's change the parameters of the experiment. We'll both go to the 7/11 and buy a lottery ticket. You pray to your god that you'll win, and I'll pray to my shoe. If you win, you donate the money to your church. If I win, I'll donate the money to this website. Surely your god wouldn't have a problem with you winning money to give to your church, would he?

And this kind of demonstration has a clear Biblical basis, also. You'll of course remember Elijah, who proved the superiority of his god Yahweh over Ba'al when he prayed for fire to come from heaven and ignite the alter that he had soaked in water?

QUOTE (1 Kings 18)

At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. Answer me, O Yahweh, answer me, that this people may know that You, O Yahweh, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again." Then the fire of Yahweh fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. When all the people saw it, they fell on their faces; and they said, "Yahweh, He is God; Yahweh, He is God."

Surely your busy schedule affords you the time to purchase a lottery ticket?

Posted by: spamandham Oct 20 2004, 06:41 AM

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 20 2004, 09:26 AM)

But if you're balking at idolatry, let's change the parameters of the experiment. We'll both go to the 7/11 and buy a lottery ticket. You pray to your god that you'll win, and I'll pray to my shoe. If you win, you donate the money to your church. If I win, I'll donate the money to this website. Surely your god wouldn't have a problem with you winning money to give to your church, would he?

Sometimes when your shoe answers prayers, the answer is "no".

Posted by: Libertus Oct 20 2004, 06:52 AM

QUOTE (spamandham @ Oct 20 2004, 06:41 AM)

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 20 2004, 09:26 AM)

Sometimes when your shoe answers prayers, the answer is "no".

Posted by: Mo Biggsley Oct 20 2004, 06:52 AM

This whole shoe thing reminds me of a Drill Sergeant in the Army who would yell at us saying "You better pray that I don't put my boot up yo ass!"

Posted by: Saviourmachine Oct 20 2004, 07:07 AM

My prayers I saw to become true seem proportional with their chance in daily life. Never saw somebody cured by a miracle. I personally heard only about somebodys leg growing a few centimeters.

Posted by: Cerise Oct 20 2004, 07:51 AM

QUOTE (LloydDobler @ Oct 19 2004, 10:38 PM)

(and god spake unto the pepsi, saying BE OPENED AND GO FORTH TASTEFULLY INTO THE MOUTH OF MY SERVANT... what. the. fuck.)

Lloyd, quit making me spit the Lard's soda all over the keyboard will ya?

Posted by: LloydDobler Oct 20 2004, 12:55 PM

Pray over the keyboard before drinking next time. If your spit misses, it's a miracle.

Posted by: TexasFreethinker Oct 20 2004, 01:39 PM

QUOTE (SparkleMotion @ Oct 18 2004, 11:35 PM)

I experience serious answered prayer pretty regularly

Sparkle,

Pray for your god to reveal my full legal name and the serial number of my computer to you. Once he does, post them in this thread. If you're able to do this, then I will seriously reconsider my atheism. If you're not, then I hope you'll seriously reconsider your position.

Posted by: Derek Oct 20 2004, 02:38 PM

Hey Zach, your challenge is straighforward, but I don't think it can be tested within the Christian doctrinal framework. I would describe answered prayer in Christianity as being predicated on two ideas:

1) The person praying must actually believe there is a chance that their prayer could have an effect. (You'd have to convince yourself that praying to the shoe MAY actually have a greater effect than praying to say..the wall or something, which nobody can honestly do)

2) The prayer is one that is acceptable to God, it should be void of selfishness or partisanship.

As opposed to the lottery thing, I would suggest something a Christian pray that a member here become a Christian, or a re-Christian, vs an ex-christian praying for a specific Christian becoming an ex.

Comment on 2 - For example if I prayed for you, if my prayer is done with a mindset of having you convert just so everyone can see that "I am right, and YOU are wrong", rather than praying because your conversion would further the cause of Christ, then that thought process could be a corrupting factor.

Posted by: LloydDobler Oct 20 2004, 02:43 PM

Why would you pray for any reason other than to further the cause of christ? I mean don't you always do that, knowing that to do it for any other reason will nullify the prayer?

Or do you really believe that you don't know your own motives until after god refuses your request?

Have faith, move a mountain, raise some dead. It's not that hard, faith of a mustard seed and all that. Don't even do it to prove it to us, do it that his glory may be revealed.

Posted by: Derek Oct 20 2004, 02:54 PM

A couples examples of prayer from my life:

Prayed for being accepted into medical school and was accepted, despite the odds and some near disasters.

From my mom: She converted when in nursing school (early 20's I believe), claimed that when she was asking this at the time amorphous idea of God to clarify itself to her, she felt a real tangible hand rest (loosely grasp) the back of her head and she saw everything clearer. Immediately after conversion she says the bible which at previously been confusing and undiscernible became 'alive' and relevant.

My girlfriend as an infant had regular seizures which were potentially life-threatening. She was brought to a healing session at the local church and from that day on never had another one.

A friend of mine went on a street-missions trip in Calgary (possibly edmonton), and ran into another 'street-minster' of sorts, who lived as a near-transient but went around preaching God. The preacher approached a girl (they didn't know each other naturally) and told her that she had severe persistent debilitating stomach cramps, amazing her and her friends as the diagnosis was correct. He then put his hand on her stomach and prayed, and the stomach cramps didn't return (up to the point this story was related to me, approximately 3-4 months afterward).

If I had more time I could probably think of others - I always had a sense almost like the world revolved around me - as in my life was guarded by a higher force and things would always work out. My non-Christian roommate from last year (atheist by what I would call non-affiliated default, as opposed to active ideology) termed my good fortune as my 'Jesus luck'.

Posted by: Derek Oct 20 2004, 02:57 PM

QUOTE (LloydDobler @ Oct 20 2004, 02:43 PM)

Why would you pray for any reason other than to further the cause of christ?

Don't even do it to prove it to us, do it that his glory may be revealed.

Because selfish motives can sneak into anything. Like anyone, I'm not immune to trying to abuse religion for my own defensive self-pity.

Posted by: The Silent One Oct 20 2004, 03:37 PM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 20 2004, 02:57 PM)

QUOTE (LloydDobler @ Oct 20 2004, 02:43 PM)

Why would you pray for any reason other than to further the cause of christ?

Don't even do it to prove it to us, do it that his glory may be revealed.

Because selfish motives can sneak into anything. Like anyone, I'm not immune to trying to abuse religion for my own defensive self-pity.

Awefully convenient that.

"Well I must not have been pure enough to have the prayer come true."

Great excuse for a statistical failure.

Posted by: bob Oct 20 2004, 03:46 PM

QUOTE

Prayed for being accepted into medical school and was accepted, despite the odds and some near disasters.

Are you saying you would not have been accepted if you had not prayed?

QUOTE

From my mom: She....claimed...she felt...she says...

?...and how does this help us?

QUOTE

My girlfriend...

Another story of prayer working, (for someone else).

QUOTE

A friend of mine...(up to the point this story was related to me, approximately 3-4 months afterward).

Yet another.
Christianity is ripe with stories of how God has answered the prayers of others.

Posted by: ChefRanden Oct 20 2004, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (Derek)

Comment on 2 - For example if I prayed for you, if my prayer is done with a mindset of having you convert just so everyone can see that "I am right, and YOU are wrong", rather than praying because your conversion would further the cause of Christ, then that thought process could be a corrupting factor.

1. If you are being selfish, then god will screw the person you are praying for out of his/her salvation just to teach you a lesson.

2. On the other hand, if you happen to pray selflessly then god will force the person to convert to prove prayer works.

3. Why would anyone have to pray for god to further his own cause?

a. Maybe god is a procrastinator.
b. Maybe god has dementia and has to be reminded what he is doing.
c. __________________________ fill in the blank.

Posted by: Zoe Grace Oct 20 2004, 04:40 PM

QUOTE (spamandham @ Oct 20 2004, 06:41 AM)

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 20 2004, 09:26 AM)

Sometimes when your shoe answers prayers, the answer is "no".

roflmao i love you spamandham. *smooch*

Posted by: Zoe Grace Oct 20 2004, 04:41 PM

George Carlin prayed to Joe Pesci. He says Joe seems like a guy who could get shit done.

Posted by: Lila Bender Oct 20 2004, 05:06 PM

Nothing in life that I ever needed or wanted, prayed for, wished for dreampt of, or asked for, ever came to me until I did it, or got it, or made it for myself.

I was only a Xtian for 9 years. I've been an ex-Xtian for 18. I am only just learning how deeply damaging the church and its lessons were to me. Eighteen years later and I am still hurting.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the power of prayer, because I believe in faith and I have faith. I have faith in the power of the human mind and the human will, Sparkle. The interesting thing is, in my humble opinion, it doesn't matter what you have faith in, as long as you have it. That includes faith in yourself.

Prayers and spells and wishes and such are all as powerful as the faith and the will behind them.

A very apt example of the power of faith is the "Incorruptibility of the Ganges".
The following was originally publ. in the Science Frontier, Book and Newsletter. It found its way into a book by Disinformation press in "You are Being Lied to".

"The Ganges is 3, 525 km long. Along its course, 27 major towns dump 902 million liters of sewage into it each day. Added to this are all those human bodies consigned to this holy river, called Ganga by the Indians. Despite this heavy burden of pollutants, the Ganges has for millennia been regarded as incorruptable. How can this be?

Several foreigners have recorded the effects of this river's 'magical' cleansing properties:

* Ganges water does not putrify, even after long periods of storage. River water begins to putrefy when lack of oxygen promotes the growth of anaerobic bacteria, which produce the telltale smell of stale water.

* British physician C.E. Nelson observed that Ganga water taken from the Hooghly--one of its dirtiest mouths--by ships returning to England remained fresh throughout the voyage.

* In 1896 the British physician E. Hanbury Hankin reported in the French journal Annales de l'Institut Pasteur that cholera microbes died within three hours in Gnga water but continued to thrive in distilled water even after three hours.

* A French scientist, Monsieur Herelle, was amazed to find 'that only a few feet below the bodies of persons floating in the Ganga who had died of dysentery and cholera, where one would expect millions of germs, there were no germs at all.'

More recently, D.S. Bhargava, an Indian environmental engineer, measured the ganges' remarkable self-cleansing properties:

Bhargava's calculations, taken from an exhaustive three-year study of
the Ganga, show that it is able to reduce BOD [biochemical oxygen
demand] levels much faster than in other rivers.

Quantitatively, the Ganges seems to clean up suspended wastes fifteen to twenty times faster than other rivers."

That's some pretty amazing stuff. How many people do you suppose are wading in that river every day offering up prayers to Jesus? Not too bloody many.

My point here is that faith and prayer may really work. I've seen incredible things happen through the power of faith. Any faith.

I am always happy to know someone who is truly at peace with his/her god(s). There are few comforts greater than knowing that there is a loving quintessence that binds our universe and us together.

I believe that science is closer and closer to inadvertantly proving the existance of some greater power, or energy, or essence, or quintessence or God.

Join me next time when we will discuss 'String Theory' Get tied up in the debate--a binding truth or just silly? hahahaha

Posted by: spamandham Oct 20 2004, 06:26 PM

Derek, just an observation, but you're fighting an uphill battle if you hope to convince skeptics based on anecdotal stories.

Posted by: sexkitten Oct 20 2004, 08:40 PM

QUOTE

When I was a Christian and I cried out for help, sometimes prayer was seemingly answered. Sometimes it wasn't.

Now that I am not a Christian, I do not cry out for help. Sometimes, a good thing conveniently occurs at the right time. Sometimes, it doesn't.

I have seen little difference so far in happy coincidences vs. answered prayer.

I was a Christian for 13 years.

Posted by: Zach Oct 21 2004, 05:35 AM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 20 2004, 06:38 PM)

Hey Zach, your challenge is straighforward, but I don't think it can be tested within the Christian doctrinal framework.

Derek-

How does the lottery challenge run counter to Christian doctrine, or even your own rules? You certainly believe that your god could grant you a winning lottery ticket, don't you? And how could it not be acceptable to your god if you give the money to your church?

But that's okay- you don't like that experiment. Let's try the one from the Bible itself that I cited before.

Go up on a hill, and build an altar to your god. Sacrifice an animal, and lay it on the altar with plenty of wood. Now, Elijah soaked his in water, but I'll make it easy on you, you don't have to do that. Just kneel and pray this prayer:

QUOTE

O Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. Answer me, O Yahweh, answer me, that this people may know that You, O Yahweh, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again.

Then, if fire shoots down from heaven and lights that altar, I'll believe. But make sure to get it all on videotape.

I think this is a much better test than praying that someone here rejoins Christianity, or that some Christian leaves it. We've already seen ex-Christians rejoin their faith and Christians leave it without any prayers involved, so how would we know it's not happening without the prayer?

I've never seen fire come down from heaven and light an altar on fire, however.

I would really like to see how this turns out- there was another guy who stopped by here a while ago who claimed that the Christian god healed his broken leg without a cast. I asked him to post X-rays and doctor's affadavits... I haven't seen him since. So the jury's still out on the efficacy of prayer- but if you don't have faith that Elijah's example will work, maybe we can work out something else that will answer the question definitively.

Posted by: bob Oct 21 2004, 06:50 AM

If you type "effects of prayer" in google, some interesting studies come up. Be sure to use the quotation marks.

Posted by: LadyAttis Oct 21 2004, 07:58 AM

Course for me the studies I've read on prayer showed that praying has an effect NO BETTER THAN CHANCE. The statisticial significance[e.g. the effect vs chance] is so high that it's more than likely all due to chance[low significance scores mean less chance for chance to be at play].

-- Bridget

Posted by: TruthWarrior Oct 21 2004, 08:19 AM

QUOTE (MrSpooky @ Oct 19 2004, 05:36 AM)

Post hoc ergo propter hoc, right?

Gazoontite!

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Oct 21 2004, 09:19 AM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 20 2004, 02:38 PM)

Why is that I wonder...

You have to convince yourself (your mind).

This is what you do when you pray to anything. You convince yourself it will work if you believe it. And why can't anyone honestly do that? Christians do it all the time except it's a mental image, or maybe a cross or picture or something.

Is there a difference in the state of mind that you are trying to get across to us?

QUOTE

2) The prayer is one that is acceptable to God, it should be void of selfishness or partisanship.

Convince yourself that it is acceptable...once again, the same mindset.

QUOTE

As opposed to the lottery thing, I would suggest something a Christian pray that a member here become a Christian, or a re-Christian, vs an ex-christian praying for a specific Christian becoming an ex.

Why? So the odds of it coming true increase?

QUOTE

It may further the cause of the shoe if you gave those shoes to the church along with all the money you won.

Give it a shot. Just put your mind to it!

Posted by: Kay Oct 22 2004, 03:29 AM

Our state premier this week made a nifty soundbyte: There's no such thing as a free lunch

Likewise, I never believed in Christianity because I didn't like the concept of prayer to get help, or be shown the path or be guided and whatnot. I didn't like this encouragement of dependency, at least that's how I see it. Presumably

If you want something to happen, be proactive and do something about it. If you are feeling depressed, seek professional help or talk to someone about it. My mum says there's no such thing as luck when it comes to exams - you either did your work and study or you didn't. Much the same with life.

Posted by: MyGodBeatUpYourGod Oct 22 2004, 07:33 AM

I see the concept of prayer to be just an illusion. An illusion that many people are susceptible to in many different ways. People tend to forget that which does not occur and pay attention to that which does.

Example. I play Texas Hold 'Em poker. You receive two cards that belong to you. A good player knows which cards to play because they have a better chance at winning. A player will have the best two cards to start (an Ace and an Ace) and will bet large. Statistically, that person should win. However, there is always a chance that someone else will win.

When that other person wins, that loss sticks in your mind. "How could that have happened?!? He was lucky! That was a miracle!"

Point: Just because that event happened once does not mean over a period of time it would happen with the same frequency. It is all an illusion. Given enough scenarios, that Ace-Ace will win 90% of the time. Just statistics. But that one loss will seem like a miracle. Amateur players will begin to use lesser probable beginning cards because they witness this 'miracle'. In the end, statistics wins and they lose their money. Don't buy into miracles.

Another thing that probably happens to many people. They will have a thought going through their head and then hear someone else (probably on radio or TV) say something similar or even exact. You think to yourself, "Wow, maybe I'm psychic! I knew what they were going to say!"

Truth be told, you probably synched up 0.01% of the thoughts in your head and call that psychic. What about the other 99.99%?

It is all the same with prayer. People tend to forget that which did not occur and focus on that which did.

Prayer is a statistic. Like cards or the off-chance of two words being spoken at the same time. Don't put your money on it.

Posted by: Derek Oct 22 2004, 11:54 PM

QUOTE (Zach @ Oct 21 2004, 05:35 AM)

How does the lottery challenge run counter to Christian doctrine, or even your own rules? You certainly believe that your god could grant you a winning lottery ticket, don't you? And how could it not be acceptable to your god if you give the money to your church?

Go up on a hill, and build an altar to your god. Sacrifice an animal...

Zach,

Think about what you would have said had I asked you this when you were a Christian. I can't arbitrarily decide what particular miracle I figure God is feeling like on a given day. "Hey God, do this one eh?" We are not in an age of miracles for belief, we're in the age of the spirit (aka post-Jesus). Jesus told those looking for an overt sign of that kind that they weren't getting one. When you hear stories, or even witness stuff, there's always an attempt to explain in rationally. The conflict is partly the point - fire falling from the sky undermines the entire spiritual exploration. God knows what each person needs to believe, and he will provide it.

QUOTE

Maybe we can work something out that will answer the question definetively.

It just dun work like that. Faith is a pre-req, and definitively knowing is something like the opposite of that. You don't technically definitively know anything. There are no real facts. What we label facts, are pieces of information that have high predictive values, and that's all fine and good. My faith has predictive value for me.

PS on another note I have random adds for porno sites and other adds popping up all the time whenever I do anything. I have Adware 6.0, Spybot S & D 1.3, and mcaffee virus scan all of which I have run but it doesn't fix it. Can anyone help me?

Posted by: spamandham Oct 23 2004, 05:07 AM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 23 2004, 02:54 AM)

PS on another note I have random adds for porno sites and other adds popping up all the time whenever I do anything. I have Adware 6.0, Spybot S & D 1.3, and mcaffee virus scan all of which I have run but it doesn't fix it. Can anyone help me?

If you're using IE, you can download the Yahoo toolbar that has a built-in pop-up blocker as well as anti-spyware.

Or, you could download an alternative browser such as FireFox.

Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Oct 23 2004, 06:45 AM

Derek, what exactly are you trying to accomplish? You do not debate, you do not provide any thought provoking arguments and you do not budge from your defensive, non-confrontational stance. Do you think that non-believers are going to "see the light" because you say that you know someone that knows someone that apparently had such miracle happen that cannot be confirmed or repeated? If I told you the same thing but replaced God with Allah would that convert you to Islam?

QUOTE

I can't arbitrarily decide what particular miracle I figure God is feeling like on a given day.

This is the part I never understood. I don't have a bible handy but from memory, I think it is Matthew 21:22 or there abouts, that says that you will receive anything you ask for in prayer. Forgive me if I am wrong or if I am reading something inaccurately. From my understanding, it says right there in black and white that you will receive what you ask for and not that your prayer will be answered. There is a big difference as no is an answer.

If I am mistaken someone please let me know. If I am not then doesn't that mean that all prays should be answered?

Posted by: bemuseme Oct 23 2004, 07:59 AM

SparkleMotion,

Let me give you a couple of examples of supposedly answered prayer. Recently I was out of work and looking for a job. My mother says "we are praying for you" so when I find one by beating the bushes all the sudden it is gods doing. No matter that I did the leg work, and through my experience in my particular field impressed the guy who hired me. Then after two weeks the man cheated me by saying I can not pay you what we agreed to because I am under capitalized. I of course walked and went back to looking for gainful employment. This time I went to several temp agencies and quickly found employment though not in my field. Again the claim by mom of answered pray. Forget that these were companies who actively look to get you employed because they make money if they succeed.

This is answered prayer??? Get real, if one believes and puts everything before "Gawd" then it is inevitable that something will happen that you want to eventually. It is very telling that the saying goes "God helps those that help themselves" because those that help themselves without praying get the same results statistically. Some god is doing nothing. This is why " God is no respecter of persons, He causes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust" is a nonsense scripture. Heat convection, droplet condensation, and the general distribution of rain, and just and unjust people on the planet bring this about.

I have had to endure this nonsense all my life. At age six I accidentally got a thorn poked in my eye. The church prayed for me not to lose my sight. When I did not it was "A Miracle, praise the Lawd" No thanks to the efforts, training, and skills of the best eye specialist surgeons in the city, the modern antibiotics, or the inherent self healing properties of a six year olds body. If the christian god did it, he did a lousy job for an all powerful being. I was left with a scratched lens. I eventually lost the ability of my pupil to dilate. The iris dissolved away. I now years later have a major squint, the vision has gone from 20/20 to 20/75 and the scar tissue from the injury is likely to develop into a cataract, eventually requiring further surgery. Decent results for a bunch of hairless apes, but poor indeed for a god, for which all things are possible. You would think if he wanted us to believe he would make his miracles just a bit more miraculous....

Posted by: bemuseme Oct 23 2004, 08:46 AM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 23 2004, 12:54 AM)

Maybe god is just nudging you to lighten up and have a bit of fun...or maybe it's the devil trying to corrupt you???...

Seriously, what have you been looking at on your computer. I have never had this happen unless I had been going to porn sights prior to it. They need your address first to be able to spam you like this. All my security ware can be set to block any address that I choose, so once they spam me the first time they are history after that if I so choose.

Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Oct 23 2004, 04:41 PM

QUOTE (bemuseme @ Oct 23 2004, 07:59 AM)

Let me give you a couple of examples of supposedly answered prayer.

I have one myself. Last semester, I attended every tutorial, did all my homework and studied extensively for my finals and I only passed because by friends mum prayed for me. Just before my exams she told me that she prayed for me and therefore, I was going to pass. She should have told me that earlier. I would not have spent so much time doing my homework or studying.

Posted by: bemuseme Oct 23 2004, 05:08 PM

QUOTE (IAm_Lucifer @ Oct 23 2004, 05:41 PM)

QUOTE (bemuseme @ Oct 23 2004, 07:59 AM)

Let me give you a couple of examples of supposedly answered prayer.

Don't you just love it....you bust your ass and sky daddy gets the credit...but when you fuck up it is your fault because you were weak and gave in to the devil, even though all things are in his grand plan...So he creates you to be a fuck up from the beginning then blames you because he is the great dysfunctional father of all...Christianity is one fucked up self defeating religious system geared for low self esteem. I guess it makes sense, since we are created in his image or is it the other way round? I think we fuck-ups know the truth of that....

Posted by: MrSpooky Oct 23 2004, 08:45 PM

QUOTE (Derek @ Oct 22 2004, 11:54 PM)

Pray.

Posted by: Derek Oct 23 2004, 09:33 PM

QUOTE

Derek, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?

Good question. I come to learn and occasionally ask questions or represent my position in a way that says - hey, here I am, I think, and this still works for me. Maybe you say it's not the right place for it - but I'm called to represent either way. We're never going to agree, but don't let that stop you from getting to know me if you are so inclined. This particular thread's title was not "crazy debate here", it was about prayer experiences, so I put some down. If I'm absolutely not welcome, I'll go without complaint. But a guy can still read.

QUOTE

Do you think that non-believers are going to "see the light"...

It's just what's gone down in my life, take it or leave it.

Posted by: Derek Oct 23 2004, 09:36 PM

QUOTE (MrSpooky @ Oct 23 2004, 08:45 PM)

Pray.

Lol....touche.

Turns out I had to get the newest version of adaware and it took care of it.

Posted by: Ian Oct 23 2004, 10:57 PM

Just the opposite.

You are welcome here.

I am a big fan of civilized discourse...so if you are up for it..then all the better.

peace .

Ian

Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Oct 24 2004, 06:51 AM

Yes you are welcome here. I am not trying to get you to leave nor do I have the right or authority. I guess I just like to get to the point.

Anywayz,
I was saved by god today. I was on a motorway with my girlfriend when I pulled over for petrol. Suddenly I see all these cars swerving and crashing into each other. If I had not pulled over I would have been involved in a ten car, high speed accident. According to my girlfriend, god saved us...

So I asked, "Why didn't god save all the other people". My girlfriend just replied "Shut up".

Thanks god.

What do you say to that bemuseme?

Posted by: bemuseme Oct 24 2004, 07:52 AM

Lucifer,

I have been in those situations myself. I once looked ahead and saw a car coming across from the other side of the freeway. I got over one lane just in time to see the face of an old lady obviously stroked out go barreling by me. She missed me by inches and crashed into the car behind me head-on. We were all going at least 70 miles per hour. It almost made my heart stop too. I think it is all just random. If I had been just seconds later I might have been in the same position as the car she hit, but then again I might have reacted as I did and still gotten out of the way. That was the second time I had been in a simular near head-on collision and my reactions saved me. So call it luck call it probability I do not think it says anything about some god watching over you. I mean think about it. There were the cars ahead of the accident and those behind it who avoided it and probably one or two besides you who reacted either knowingly or not who escaped it as well. So why those ten cars. No reason except all the factors of timing that put them there at that time and place and whatever reactions each took when the first car went out of control. No rhyme or reason just pure randomness. It is like trying to find a reason or purpose for the occasional massive rock that falls from the sky and plows into the planet at times causing massive destruction, sometimes rising to the level of worldwide extinctions. No reason...shit just happens. Thats not to say that there was not a string of events that led to it but they were not being directed by some higher power. Order and chaos are just the way our universe operates. If it were not that way everything would be static , unchanging, dead.

Then again maybe they were all christians being called home to heaven, and you being the heathen that you are were given more time to change your ways...

I have a young friend that recently became convinced that god had saved him because he, while driving the tractor on his dads farm, accidentally fell off and got ran over. He was sore but received not a scratch,. No matter what I told him about how soft the ground was because of the recent rain and the distribution of the weight of the tractor being spread by the large tires, or of the incredible strength and flexibility of the human body, he was convinced that it was a miracle. The truth is that he was scared and amazed plus had been catching hell from his girlfriend for not attending church and partying too much, so when a random event happened he grasped at straws for an explanation and came up with 'It Was God"

People have a need to understand why and to be in control, because otherwise the random unknown scares the piss out of them, so they posit another unknown to be responsible for what they can not be.

Posted by: bemuseme Oct 24 2004, 08:12 AM

I too say welcome Derek. I also like discourse though I will not swear that I will always be civilized in my way of expressing myself. I will use every word, every crude joke, every irreverent image, every blasphemous thought which occurs to my wit to point out what I see as the superstitious nonsense which is religion in general and christianity specifically.

Posted by: cranker Dec 23 2004, 08:23 PM

I prayed for whirled peas and so far I haven't received any. I think the light of reason is brighter than the light of your christ!

Posted by: Castleberry Dec 23 2004, 10:37 PM

Derek, you're more than welcome here!

I want to encourage you to do something you will be reluctant to agree to. I think you should go without praying for a 10 day period. It's interesting, but you may find that things stay pretty much the same. They probably won't FEEl the same, but that's because you're going against a normal part of your day. In fact, instead of praying journal or talk to some older person you respect and admire, and you might find your emotional relief will feel very much the same as after prayer.

I think Christians have a problem with attributing too much to God. When I de-converted I met a beautiful atheist that I fell in love with. When I was talking to one of my friends a/b her I said, "isn't it amazing that God brought and atheist into my life right as I was leaving the faith?" haha... then it hit me. I SPOKE CHRISTIAN. It was like this language and mentality I have. In the book of II Samuel a spirit from the Lord (YHWH) came to deceive King David into taking a census, but in the Chroniclers history, he sights its sighted as being a "spirit from Satan." I wonder exactly what criteria causes a miracle?

And I think we all have friends that experience amazing circumstances we could call "miracles." But what about when they happen to non-believers? The Christian response is "it's a message from God," or something... but is it not just as plausible that it's merely chance altogether?

People that adhere strongly to religious beliefs are actually proven to do better in post-operation recovery, etc. It's not just Christians though, but people that adhere to any religion. I'm guessing you're not a pluralist, so it seems this is psychology?

Posted by: Astreja Dec 23 2004, 11:07 PM

Okay, I'll play.

One day I was standing at the busiest corner in the city, at rush hour. The light changed, and I stepped off the curb to cross the street. Something unseen stopped me for about a quarter of a second, just long enough to save me from the large vehicle that had run the red light. Without that time delay I would have been killed or seriously injured.

Something happened, true.

However, nothing, and I do mean nothing in that experience gives any clue as to the nature of the force that stopped me. It would be intellectually dishonest to attribute any particular deity to that phenomenon, because there was no evidence that pointed to anything in particular. Could have been Biblegod, GuanYin, an invisible cat warrior from outer space, the shade of my great-great-great-grandmother... Well, you get the picture. Prayers may very well be answered, but not necessarily by the same being to whom one prayed.

Astreja

Posted by: erik the awful Dec 23 2004, 11:09 PM

1. No.
2. No.
3. 32 years.

I do remember sitting at my bedroom desk, about 15 years ago, 3am in the morning, desperatly praying for any kind of help, searching through the Bible, looking for something, anything, before I gave up and ate four boxes of sleeping pills. I'm certian that you would argue that God saved my life.

But that's just all the more irnoic. I spent 2000-2003 begging God to help me understand and accept the BuyBull, and to help me find the Truth. And then I found Karen Armstrong and books like "The Battle for God," and best of all "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam."

I'd never examined any opposing view points. No one had ever encouraged THAT during my search for the truth. Suddenly the Bible made sense. So did Christianity, Islam and Judism too.

I want no part of them. I've found the truth, or at least *a* truth. I've been set free. I've not had such peace as the realization that we humans made it all up. Its in our nature to specualte on why something is or is not. Its in our nature to invent dieties that serve our various purposes. We've been doing it through out our recorded history.

Christianity has been a long dark bad experience. Quitting Christianity has been one of the best things I've ever done for myself.

Posted by: bdp Dec 24 2004, 01:11 AM

I was a Christian for about 18 years give or take (it was a gradual leaving), and two incidents play in my mind when I think of that time and prayer. An acquaintance of a co-worker of mine was in a car accident that left every internal organ but her heart lacerated; doctors did all they could but it seemed to not be enough, and they told the family to preparee to lose her within the next 24 hours. I fasted and prayed for her for a full day, a Tuesday, and she lived and began to recover. That Saturday she was allowed out of bed and the doctor discussed setting a release date for her the following week. When it was time for her to get back into bed three nurses were lifting her - one at her feet, one at her shoulders, and one supporting her back. The one supporting her back let go before she was on the bed, the othet two dropped her, and she hit the edge of the bed and fell to the floor. Sutures tore inside, she was rushed back to ICU, again doctors did all they could and she wasn't responding and they knew she couldn't survive such an ordeal again, warned the family to prepare. And I repeated what I had done before, fasted and prayed for a full day - she lives to this very day. Now, incident two: my father developed cancer. I prayed for him as fervently as I ever had, my church was praying for him, the college fellowship I attended was praying for him, all my family was praying for him. He died. What is the difference in the two? My opinion? There is none. People live and people die for no rhyme or reason. Maybe the girl had more will to live and, in essence, healed herself. Anyway I don't see God in any of it - that's just the truth, I'm not angry or bitter about it, it's just life.

bdp

Posted by: Lokmer Dec 24 2004, 01:33 AM

I had one seemingly miraculous event - the family was out of money and food and had no hope of help, and groceries showed up at the door. My parents pitched it to me as a miracle. I found out later that it was left by my Mom's best friend, who knew our situation full well and was very well off and generous (she gave us a $2k check too, which bought food for the next two months until Dad's income from adjunct teaching started coming in again). So, no miracle there.

In every other "crying out to God" incident, the only tangible help I received came when I got my ass in gear and found a solution on my own. I have been in the ministry, both by association and directly, for my entire life, and have never once seen an answer to prayer prayed by someone who was truly helpless. I have seen a community help someone, and I have seen people help themselves. I have given until I was tapped out financially, emotionally, and physically to people who needed it - I still do - but that was no miracle either.

I say "tangible" in the last paragraph because I did often work myself into a state of euphoria through fervent prayer, a state which alleviated the momentary stress. When I came down, though, nothing was better. The stress break did sometimes help in gaining distance from the problem and allowing me to attack it afresh, but a bout of strep throat, a good film or artistic experience, or a long week on a film set accomplish the same end with much the same emotional experience.

I found my faith to be valuable, but it was the magic feather that gave me the courage to do what I already knew had to be done. Unlike some here, my personal experience with Christianity was largely positive. Losing my faith was like having a friend die - but it was an imaginary friend, and I have disovered a great deal of freedom now that I do not have to constantly work to resolve theological questions and major cognative dissonance. Between that, and not being under the obligation to defend or wrestle with the ongoing atrocities in the church (I witnessed many, and was privy to more - I'm still giving counsel to Christians who are victimized by the church on a semi-regular basis), is a great burden lifted from my shoulders.

I was a Christian for 22 years (counting from my first "sinner's prayer").

The truth shall set you free, even if the breakaway is painful. In my case, both are true. But the pain fades with time. Freedom remains..

-Lokmer

Posted by: GreyGirl Dec 24 2004, 08:22 PM

When I was a kid (I think about 9 or 10) I had to have surgery. Before I went to the hospital, my mom had the bishop come over and give me a blessing. He and two other members of the bishopric layed hands on my head and prayed that my surgery would be successful, that I would survive it and be healed, and that I would go on to live a full life of good health.

It worked. I survived my childhood tonsilectomy. Several years later when that same bishop was trying to convince me to come back to church, he brought up that blessing. He truly believed that getting my tonsils out would have killed me had god not saved me through the power of prayer. And yet, the vast majority of children who get their tonsils removed come through it just fine, prayer or not. Some people are just desperate to believe, so they'll attribute anything to god.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Dec 28 2004, 11:48 AM

QUOTE (bemuseme @ Oct 24 2004, 08:12 AM)

BeMe, you just have to BeYou!

Where the heck have you been anyway?