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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > Prayer Still Pervading My Life Posted by: Farasha Feb 1 2004, 02:21 PM I wasn't quite sure where to post this....so, here it is: I find that, even though I am no longer a Christian, I still finding myself slipping back into the old habit of prayer when I am scared, worried, etc. Occasionally I'll even mutter that phrase that used to comfort me: "In the name of the Lord, get thee behind me Satan". Yes, when I was a Christian, I had an intense fear of Satan and demons. Especially after watching the Exorcist. Funny how, when I was a Christian, other Xians would tell me that I had no reason to fear Satan or his demons, that they had no power over me, that it is the non-believers who should be trembling in fear. Well, only when I became a non-believer was I free of this fear. Now I can honestly say that I have no fear whatsoever of hell, Satan, demons, or a wrathful god; yet when I was a Xian, I feared all those things. Yet another way in which the Christ cultists lie to themselves and other followers. Anyway, so I was wondering, how do I go about banishing this habit of muttering prayers for comfort here and there? It's like I still have this imaginary friend called "God" in my head who I cannot get rid of. Fortunately, I have vanquished the habit of praying before meals...instead, I take a moment to think about my gratitude for the hands that prepared the meal or for my parents or family, not for god's alleged involvement. If anyone has any advice on this matter, let me know. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 1 2004, 03:06 PM Farasha, I've not got any advice on the topic, more of a "me too," for whatever that's worth. I find my self "praying" several times a day. I've concluded that, against my wishes, a major part of my brain insists on believeing in God. Then again, when I claimed I was a christian, I was always able to identify a part of my self that did not believe. Hopefully this doesn't qualify me for an institution. I suspect "silent prayer" comes from the "self talk" habit that psycholigists and self help books describe. For years, I worked to turn my "self talk" in God's direction. Perhaps now the task is to reverse that process. I've got no idea if your head is wired this way or not. So take anything you find useful and discard the rest. Off topic/PS/I also deeply appreciate classical music, particularly baroke through early romantic. I'm generaly not so thrilled with late romantic stuff, although there are exceptions... Posted by: Matthew Feb 1 2004, 03:41 PM QUOTE I find that, even though I am no longer a Christian, I still finding myself slipping back into the old habit of prayer when I am scared, worried, etc. Occasionally I'll even mutter that phrase that used to comfort me: "In the name of the Lord, get thee behind me Satan". Yes, when I was a Christian, I had an intense fear of Satan and demons. Farasha, even after I deconverted I still prayed to a Creator which I believed to exist to thank for my meals. As for being fearful of the unkown, I have a suggestion that might help to overcome this habit; only pray if you actually see the demons! More serious, it will take time before this habit dissolves. Just give it time and reflect upon it. Try to determine what scares you and why and what you can do to help overcome the factors underlying your fear. Rather than praying, you might wish to get a notebook and write down what you are scared of and why it seems to scare you. As you go over entries and write about it you might realize that it's really nothing. Matthew Posted by: TexasFreethinker Feb 1 2004, 04:51 PM There might be some kind of (secular) meditation you can use that will take the place of prayer. Recognize that what you really are doing is giving yourself some peace and quiet to evaluate the situation and decide what you will be doing to resolve it. Meditation can be a sort of prayer to yourself. It doesn't even have to be called meditation - I don't think of it that way - I just calm myself down and focus on the situation. One trick I use is the "remember the solution" approach. Rather than saying "how will I solve this problem?" say to yourself "I know the solution to this problem, remember what it is." Some people experience less stress when they aren't worried about coming up with an entirely new solution to the problem, but instead think about it in terms of something they've already solved. That may be more than you wanted, but it may be worth a try. Good luck. Posted by: nightbreeze Feb 1 2004, 05:03 PM Put a rubber band around you wrist and snap it hard when you find yourself uttering a prayer. Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 1 2004, 05:27 PM Simply reiterating Matthew's advice, I second the motion to "just give it time." I can identify with your habit of "backsliding" (as some may call it) as well. I have an intense fear of free-roaming dogs, especially if they show an aggressive nature. Whenever I come across one--especially at night, and especially when I don't actually see it, only think I hear panting or the jingling of its tags or the clicking of its claws on the pavement or any of a million other things I could mistake and interpret to be evidence of a free-roaming dog nearby--there's still that part of me that wants to send up a prayer. Sometimes I succumb to this desire and make a humble supplication to any deity which may be listening and able and willing to help at the moment. Sometimes I don't and I just keep walking--albeit a little quicker--and try not to let my fear get the best of me. I think those of use who have realized the sham that is "God's love" can be dealing with twice as much trouble and fear. Not only are we sometimes afraid that it's all true and we're going to go to Hell if we don't straighten up--this usually fades rather quickly, thankfully--but for myself I used to be able to confide anything in God, knowing that he was always watching over me and would keep me safe through anything. For the first little while after deprogramming, I had to deal with the fear of knowing there was no one up there watching over me and keeping me safe, and knowing any prayers I may utter will be heard only by myself. Oy, unpleasant memories there. Just be patient, this should go away--or at least decrease--over time. Posted by: Farasha Feb 1 2004, 05:39 PM You have an intense fear of dogs? Did you have a bad experience with one, or something? Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 06:01 PM QUOTE Anyway, so I was wondering, how do I go about banishing this habit of muttering prayers for comfort here and there? It's like I still have this imaginary friend called "God" in my head who I cannot get rid of. Fortunately, I have vanquished the habit of praying before meals...instead, I take a moment to think about my gratitude for the hands that prepared the meal or for my parents or family, not for god's alleged involvement. For me, it took a very concerted and deliberate effort to break the habit of looking above for guidanc e and protection. Not saying "god bless you" when people sneeze was also a big one for me to overcome. After a while, I don't really have a problem with doing it . . . more of a problem with lacking something to do when those occasions arrive. I think everyone has already told you to just give it time, and that's the best advice. It's only been a couple of months, right? Xpen Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 06:03 PM Also, that is a very good substitute for meal prayer. I may just have to use that. I do find myself kind of going "Uhh", when I sit down by myself to eat. Thanks! Xpen Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 1 2004, 06:48 PM Intense fear is probably an understatement, but it's the most appropriate term I can produce short of phobia. I've been afraid of dogs for as long as I can remember. It doesn't matter if it's a pit bull or a french poodle--if it's got a muzzle, four legs, a growl and a bark, odds are I'll still get nervous around it. I'm not sure what may have caused it, but I have some ideas. Just up the street from my folks there used to live an annoying little brown dog--always yapping and acting like it was bigger and tougher than it would ever be. Granted it was at best a foot tall and long, with a mouth that opened maybe two inches; but remember at the time this was at least 1/3 my size. Countless times when I went out in the circle to play, this stupid little mutt would run out of the yard, barking and snarling, and chase me back to my house. At this point even I was somewhat afraid of dogs, but I don't think it had gotten quite as intense as it has since then. Anyway, I took my big-wheel out one day to ride around the circle--yes I do still remember those, I still think they're absolutely awesome, and I think every child should have one growing up--and as I passed this house, that damned dog ran out from the front porch, grabbed my pantleg in it's teeth, and started pulling and snarling for all it was worth. I realize now I could have easily just smacked the thing upside the head--and I would do so now to any dog that would be put down with such ease--but I was understandably terrified by the situation and so I put all I had into it and sped up. The dog wasn't expecting this, so my pantleg was ripped from its jaws and I rocketed home faster than ever before. A few years later as I got into elementary school, I would bike to and from the school everyday, as it was at most half a mile from my house. Wouldn't you know there was another stupid fucking dog just waiting to terrorize me more on my regular route to and from school. It was a larger brown dog, maybe a lab, and was owned by an elderly couple down the street from us. As they were old, they didn't have much capability to do things with it, so I suppose the dog became bitter and mean in loneliness and apparent neglect due to the owners' ages. Of course, they never let it in the house either--not even during the winter. It stayed outside--or in the garage--year-round, and the owners rarely went outside to spend time with it. I can understand the feebleness of age, but it's since been my belief that if one isn't capable of caring properly for an animal, one shouldn't have the option. Anyway, I got used to the route I chose for school, and suddenly one day, seemingly out of nowhere, this damn dog comes charging into the street after my bike, barking and snarling like I'd just murdered its mate or something. Needless to say, as with the first occurrence all those years ago, I got an adrenaline rush like I've rarely experienced since, and probably hit a top speed of about 20 mph in my rush to get to the school and away from that damn mutt. From then on, I rarely went past that house when the damn dog wasn't there waiting for me. Come to find out that despite a 6-foot fence surrounding the back yard, this dog could easily jump the thing and regularly did so back and forth just for something to do. That really made me feel better. Even not going past the house was no guarantee, as it could at any time and often did jump the fence and wander about the neighborhood so I never knew where the fucking beast would be. Neither of these dogs ever actually physically harmed me in any way, but it's clear to see they definitely left a psychological imprint. I believe I was naturally wary of dogs from the start, and my experiences with the bad apples of the species have only worsened matters. The little brown dog's dead, but now there are four others in the circle to make up for it's absence. Two boxers, a pit bull, and another damn little brown dog owned by another neighbor. A few years before I moved out, new neighbors moved in next door and brought three more stupid aggressive dogs with them. They were always enclosed in a fence, but they never gave a moment's peace to us when in our back yard, and by this point I'd come to be wary of dogs even behind fences. I have no idea wether the other dog is still alive. Even if it's not, I know that they have another dog of the same variety, and last I checked, this one is turning out to be just as mean and nasty as the last one. They're nice people, but I honestly loathe and despise them for having a dog when they obviously can't care for it properly and thus putting myself and those like me through god knows how much terror. About four years ago, I think, other neighbors down the opposite end of the street got a chocolate lab, and it's roughly the same story as the old people. The dog is almost always chained up outside and almost totally neglected by the owners other than to see to it's hunger, thirst, and occasional need for shelter from the elements. As with the old people, I want to beat the owners over the head repeatedly with a heavy blunt object until they get it through their thick skulls what such mistreatment of an animal can do not only to the animal itself but to those who share my feelings on the matter, as well. You can find my feelings on the existence--and the desired termination thereof--of that particular bestial demon http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1561&view=findpost&p=16602. As well, there's a post from another thread made months ago relating to this thread and my previous post, http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=784&view=findpost&p=5769. Even now, living in my new house, the neighbors in the house immediately south own three large, loud dogs. Despite that we've lived here four months, every time Andy or I go out back they bark and yap at us and generally make a huge annoyance of themselves. As well, the neighbors have a tendencey to either leave them out at night or let them out around 4:30 AM, at which time they proceed to wake up every living thing within twenty miles by barking at the tops of their lungs for at least a half-hour nonstop. I can't tell you the number of times I've reached for that .22 in the morning--even loaded it and went to the back door a few times. So far, I haven't gone through with anything, though. I honestly think the only thing holding me back is the knowledge that I can now go to jail for doing such. Posted by: Libertus Feb 1 2004, 07:57 PM QUOTE I've been afraid of dogs for as long as I can remember. It doesn't matter if it's a pit bull or a french poodle--if it's got a muzzle, four legs, a growl and a bark, odds are I'll still get nervous around it. I'm not sure what may have caused it, but I have some ideas. I'm fortunate that I have been able to keep a general fear of dogs at bay, but ANY dog that shows ANY sign of aggression makes me reall nervous. I have bitten by 4 dogs in my life, and aggressive ones really bother me. By the way, 3 were fucking chihuauas, and the other, a pit bull, left a scar on my lower abdomen which is there to this day (close to 2 decades later). Also Woody, I agree, Big Wheels rock!! Xpen Posted by: Rhiannon Feb 2 2004, 05:44 PM I did find I still prayed - a bit - at first ... now I just tend to repeat "Ohshitohshitohshitohshit" or "pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease" to nothing in particular. I know it isnt gonna make the blindest bit of difference, but its habit if nothing else Posted by: Farasha Feb 2 2004, 05:59 PM Heh, I find myself doing the "ohshitohshitohshit" thing as well. And, on occasion, when things get really bad/hectic and I find myself thinking "please God, please God"....I instead morph my thinking to "please goddess" or "please zeus" or something like that, even though I know it's not really going to help anything except to help me calm down. Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 2 2004, 06:34 PM I agree, a quickly repeated sequence of "oh shit" can be wonderfully therapeutic. Posted by: Lokmer Feb 2 2004, 06:38 PM LOL, Farasha! Your mention of Zeus brought to mind the line from "The Rock" Nic Cage is yelling at Sean Connery, and says "How in the name of ZEUS'S BUTTHOLE did you get out of your cell?!?!" Creative profanity is such a wonderful thing OBTW, I'm all there with you on the prayer thing. I never realized how much I did it until I apostacized, now I'm having to stop myself several times a day. I had no idea that I used to be so devout! -Lokmer Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Feb 2 2004, 06:46 PM Aw, back to the Everquest icon? Anyway, if you are going to pray (for real, idk like before a meal perhaps) it might be easier just to not do it the christian wa, or you could ween yourself off it. Posted by: michelle Feb 2 2004, 07:29 PM I remember my first couple of days of doubting God and thats about how long it took to decide that I had been fooling myself all along. Anyway I remember a couple of prayers that went something along the lines of " I hate your guts Gods you are a real dirtbag. This is pretty crazy, no? But thats what I did, hate prayers. Man I was warped. I know that I still beleived in him enough to be angry with him but this would be really bad if it were self talk. Anyway Farasha yours sounds like habit, it will go away. Its interesting what Tex says. I tend to think the way hes describing, I see a problem and quickly think of what the solution is. Its good because it gives YOU the power instead of the problem holding the power. Some people call it facing your fears and boy have you learned how to do that Farasha. You guys who have given up your faith without cracking up really amaze me. Youre such strong people. Its not easy to deprogram yourself. But youre doing it or have already done it, in spite of all the Christian thought that surrounds us. Im sorry, we really do deserve a fucking metal. And not this one either: Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 2 2004, 07:29 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 2 2004, 07:34 PM) I agree, a quickly repeated sequence of "oh shit" can be wonderfully therapeutic. Seems to do a lot more for me than prayer ever did. Posted by: michelle Feb 2 2004, 07:41 PM On a side note, I went looking for Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome on line because I had such a battle with panic after leaving my religion, I was thinking that some of the people who might really understand a pychotic break would be men who went through wars, vietnam, stuff like that. So I found this site that had emails listed of people who were diagonosed with PTSD. I didnt find any war vets but I did find several practicing Christians, 2 female AA members, and a bunch of homemakers & moms. I only looked at the ages between 35-50 something. The list went by age. Also listed were a lot men without jobs. I didnt look into the list of younger people. But I defineatly noticed the Christians. Makes ya wonder doesnt it? Also I didnt see anybody listed as being gay. I have a tendacy to see gay people as happy and mentally healthy, I know Im stereotyping again, but thats what I see. Posted by: lostandconfused Feb 2 2004, 07:48 PM i do it too, even though i no longer believe in an active god. on a subconscious level, i'm absolutely terrified of the one positive aspect of Christianity, the belief that someone was watching out for me. on another note, i too am deathly afraid of dogs... hmm, now i have a fear of god (a part of me is still so afraid that there's a god up there who IS active, and LIKES to see people suffer, and created this world and us so he'd have something to torture) to add to my fear of dog, how ironic. Posted by: michelle Feb 2 2004, 08:01 PM Can I say something about the fear of dogs? I had this as a teen & in my 20's, after awile I got tired of being intimidated by dogs. It got to the point where I thought "if this dog comes near me, I'll kick its ass. The fear went away after a while. But now its different, since I have been in contact with Rottweilers & pitbulls, I look at them and realize I really could get hurt by one of these things. I dont go petting until I ask if it bites. I dont see too many pitbulls or rottweilers running around loose because this is a city but if I do, ya know what? Im gonna make a run for it. Posted by: BillJ Feb 2 2004, 08:07 PM Off topic: Farasha I liked your violin avatar; a gorgeous face to look at! Posted by: SyrioForel Feb 3 2004, 08:44 AM QUOTE (Rhiannon @ Feb 2 2004, 05:44 PM) I did find I still prayed - a bit - at first ... now I just tend to repeat "Ohshitohshitohshitohshit" or "pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease" to nothing in particular. I know it isnt gonna make the blindest bit of difference, but its habit if nothing else This is my current position as well, and I might add, coming up with new and interesting language is sort of a hobby of mine, especially while driving . All I can do is echo the other advice and say just give it time, it does start to fade. ~D Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 3 2004, 01:51 PM Michelle, you have no idea how badly I wish that could work for me. Unfortunately, I've tried that. In fact, that's really the only thing that keeps me under control when I do see a dog and start to feel the fear. I tell myself that, though it may hurt me, if that dog comes within range and has an obvious intent to do me harm, I'm going to give it a well-placed kick to the jugular and hopefully crush its windpipe. Not the most humane way of handling the situation, but anyone who feels that fear as intensely as I do will completely understand. The psychological programming is so strong, and that fear experienced so intense, that I see it as literally a life or death matter. In that case, you bet your ass it's gonna' be me over that damn mutt. If it weren't for this conviction, I would probably lose all control and run like a crazy bastard ever time I saw a dog. This wouldn't help the situation, as it would then pick up on my fear and predatory instincts would take over and cause it to give chase with the probably intent of doing me harm. You're lucky to not have dogs running around. While this isn't necessarily a big city, it is a highly residential area, and yet people don't seem to see a need to secure their dogs in any way. I can't tell you the number of dogs I've seen running the streets at all times and in all places--including boxers, pit bulls, rotweilers and the like. One of these days, I'm going to look up the number for the local pound, and every time I see a dog running loose in the neighborhood, or even sitting in a yard but totally unrestrained, I'll call them up and ask them to do what they can with the situation, including take the dog away and fine the owner if it's deserved. I don't care if I have to do it to the point where the people who answer the phones there know me on a first name basis and get the opinion that I'm paranoid, I'm sick and tired of going through the same exhausting and totally unnecessary fear every time I come across a dog wandering the streets because it's owner is too stupid and ignorant of the laws to tie the damn thing up or put a fucking fence around their yard. If it were legal, I'd just carry a sidearm with me, and every time I see a free-roaming dog left out by some irresponsible jackass, geck will have one less mutt to improperly care for. As carrying a knife is legal, as soon as I have a replacement for the one I lost a while ago, I'll use that along with my feet and fists. To put it in terms that those who don't understand this fear might understand, to me a free-roaming dog is like a loaded gun without a trigger lock and with the safety off. There's no way of knowing when it will go off, what might cause it to, or wether or not it will hurt you if/when it does, and how much damage you may receive if the latter. Posted by: Lanakila Feb 4 2004, 06:51 AM I still find myself praying occasionally too. But I really think it was talking to myself all the time anyway since there is no God out there. The hard thing for me is the habit of thanking God when something good happens. I still do this occasionally. It is a habit though. The same as the habit I had of not cussing, and its gone now hehe. Posted by: Starflier Feb 5 2004, 08:24 AM I got over praying to God as Father & Jesus about 30 years ago when I left the Catholic church. I didn't have much trouble with stopping "God" or "Jesus" prayers, thoughts or utterances, only as curses to them in my mind as I railed at them inside myself. (Like they could hear my raging angst, deep disappointment, & betrayal, right?). So it felt good to do that to vent. Eventually after a few years, that gradually stopped as well. But then since early childhood I was more a fan of the Holy Mother, Mary, Mother of God anyway. So my problem was stopping praying to her as She had become so real to me as my heavenly mother like I was taught especially at Catholic girl's school by the nuns. That was a years-long problem for me until because after my New Age & Spiritualist freethinking metaphysical science but still somewhat Christian based churchgoing years were over, there was then the Pagans & Wiccans & their deities. Especially the Goddess because I never could stomach the horned god thing. Too much like Satan to me. I wanted nothing to do with any type of male deity anyway. But the male pagan horned nature god was indeed, I read, where the Christian founding fathers got their idea of Satan to begin with. So I encountered the Goddess there in that old earthly based religion which was very grounding & stabilizing for me instead of having my head & thoughts in the clouds or beyond that into the deep heavens with the sky god. So Mary as merely Goddess of many names was there too, still somehow imagining the Mother of God (Goddess) thing was real to make myself feel better as a female. But somewhere inside I even knew that was dumb because no human-looking female could have been the ultimate cosmic creator either. It was the anthropomorphic almighty creating deity thing all over again as female now gynocentric instead of androcentric. I think I really needed the Goddess for bare-assed survival though because I had such low self-esteem since childhood as a female, the "lesser" being I was sure I was. That I would never have asserted myself enough to compete with men to get a decent paying job to support my 4 kids after divorcing my first alcoholic, violent, schizophrenic husband. My former receptionist or office clerk wages just wouldn't cut it. I had to go out & compete for men's jobs & men's wages. Oh mercy, some challenge that was for my forerly quiet, shy, self-effacing self! But I did do it though I had to work two jobs for a long time first until I got raises & promotions. I ended up being City government code enforcement officer in fact. Which was very dangerous at times doing the scab jobs our major city police hadn't the time for. We weren't allowed to carry a weapon either. So I got into many a dangerous situation many times with knife/gun totin' gang members, insane street people & junk yard dogs, angry citizens I gave citations to & testified against in court & so forth. So my kids were basically latch-key kids & I felt guilty as all get-out about that but what could I do? That was back in the 60s & 70s mostly. Good thing they had each other & the other neighborhood kids & at-home moms or dads or they wouldn't have turned out as well as they did. But as an exCatholic who hung with Mary, a female & mother like me, I had a hard time stopping praying to her. After I discovered the goddess ideology & myths of the Wiccans/ Pagans I upgraded Mary to Goddess. And added other more powerful goddess ideals as well because Mary was just too nice. quiet, meek & mild. in the Bible at least, & no more than a servant (handmaiden) to Jesus & Godfather (all males) really. So the Pagan Goddess personae were different, stronger, wiser, as intelligent & physically powerful as any man or male deity & often moreso. That was me. I assumed that identity. It worked!! Except the physical strength part as I'm only 5'1" after all. But that aside, I still have & own that far more powerful & inwardly strong feminine concept & not one bit of regret about it at all. It was a very necessary part of my growth & survival in my life in this world. Without the Goddess I would have offed myself long ago, kids or not. Most likely via allowing some macho, violent man to do me in is more like it. Now I'd never consider that anymore. I know I can handle whatever life challenges me with if I do it one step at a time or even one minute at a time working my way through it as a process. So even now, though I know the words "Goddess/God" mean only human females & males or animal, fish, fowl, or as Mother/Father Earth/Heavens or gender-type parts of plants, flowers or mechanical things, I still thank the feminine goddess ideal I learned of that helped me remain alive & well until now & raise decent, honest, law-abiding adults from wounded kids. So I praise the goddess inside myself & females & the god inside all males. For it continues the egalitarian gender ideal for me & the use of those divinely human titles are still helpful in many ways. Though I do still affirm/pray to the Cosmos or Universe in general now which I probably will continue to do. Though I would never again try to create or join any type of organized religion or cult that did the same. Posted by: Starflier Feb 5 2004, 09:00 AM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 3 2004, 01:51 PM) You're lucky to not have dogs running around. While this isn't necessarily a big city, it is a highly residential area, and yet people don't seem to see a need to secure their dogs in any way. I can't tell you the number of dogs I've seen running the streets at all times and in all places--including boxers, pit bulls, rotweilers and the like. If it were legal, I'd just carry a sidearm with me, and every time I see a free-roaming dog left out by some irresponsible jackass, geck will have one less mutt to improperly care for. As carrying a knife is legal, as soon as I have a replacement for the one I lost a while ago, I'll use that along with my feet and fists. I certainly do relate to the dog-fear & related problems. I've been terrified of dogs since childhood, even small barking hostile type dogs. I used to have this problem all the time. Especially when working for the city encountering unleashed junk yard dogs & people's attaack dogs who deliberately let them out to charge at me. I was terrified of them & petrified. But I must have been protected somehow I figure because I never got bitten or hurt in the slightest way by any of them. It was amazingly uncanny really how they'd bark & run fiercely right at me, then stop in their tracks up close to me & just wag their tales. I have no idea why. But I sure was grateful for whatever it was doing that. Which is not to say I didn't run for my car every chance I got when I saw them charging at me. It's just that sometimes they caught me unaware when I had to be a distance from my car like knocking on a residence door. Or their owners deliberately sicced them on me. Nice people, huh? I'm really glad now I live in a neighborhood community where strict rules apply about keeping dogs in the house only. Not even on leashes outside in their yards......ever as there's no fences here. It's strictly enforced too. So I feel safe walking around here but not out onto or across the major outside boulevard & open lands & unfenced small farms nearby in this very rural country type area where I hear & see big dogs all the time. I used to carry a big walking stick & a knife for protection against dogs or whatever, even hostile humans. And keep both in my car as well, which I still do. I'm considering buying a gun as well as I'm an elder semi-disabled widow woman now living alone . But as long as I take my walks inside this community I have no problem or concern with it which is all the time now & gratefully so. Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 5 2004, 10:23 PM Well, no one was ever risky enough to sick their dogs on me directly, but I vividly remember one lady in general who I still have a seething hatred for even though the incident happened years ago. I used to deliver newspapers in my neighborhood, and the in house in question was living a middle-aged man who I knew fairly well and enjoyed chatting with every once in a while when I went by his place. He asked me politely to put his paper in the hooks on his mailbox, so whenever I went by his place and he wasn't outside to get it himself, I would stride up his porch and do as he asked. The day came when I went through my normal routine of going to his porch and putting the paper in the hooks, and suddenly out of nowhere this fluffy, mean as hell black dog comes out of absolutely nowhere and starts barking and trying to bite me. Needless to say, I (literally) screamed in fear, and made it to the end of the yard and out of the dog's reach in about two tenths of a second. Some woman who I've never seen before (come to find out later she's his ex-wife or girlfriend or something) comes to the door and starts bitching me out about making so much noise and causing such an unnecessary fuss. Here I am, trying to do the job assigned to me as well as I can and in accordance with the desires of the customer, when out of the blue this lady's dog attacks me, and she comes out and starts bitching me out like it's somehow my fault! Needless to say, after that day, the closest the paper ever came to those hooks at that house was on the edge of the curb where I left it. On the rare occasion when neither the man nor woman were home and the dog came out to bark at me, I would send that paper flying with as much force as possible and peg that stupid mutt square in the face. They knew that I was doing it, because there was always a large bruise or welt left from the impact, but the woman could never get any proof. The man wasn't about to say anything, as he hated that dog almost as much as I did and, having heard the story, was surprised I hadn't tried to kill the damn thing yet. The neighbors, too, saw the whole thing when it first happend, and they all told me they wouldn't turn me in for anything I did to that dog--a few of them even encouraged my abuse of it. As has been said so many times, I'm not a violent person, but I do have my limits. As well, from that day forward I always had a knife, stick, bar, or some kind of weapon to use against aggressive dogs like that. It's my hope to someday live in a neighborhood like yours, where everyone who owns a dog is conscious of the ingerent risks and responsibility therein and acts accordingly. Posted by: Libertus Feb 5 2004, 10:30 PM QUOTE (BillJ @ Feb 2 2004, 08:07 PM) Off topic: Farasha I liked your violin avatar; a gorgeous face to look at! Bill Since she is not hanging around, at the moment, I will clear this up for her. The violin avatar that she had wasn't actually her. It was Hilary Hahn, a professional concert violinist. This is not to impune Liz, as she is also quite a lovely young lady, but I had asked her about that as well because it doesn't look quite like her pics on her website. Xpen Posted by: Libertus Feb 5 2004, 10:33 PM Woody, People can be such jackasses sometimes. I know that my old mailman carried pepper spray around with him for dogs. Until I started talking to him, I really just saw the mailman/dog thing as a bit of a cliche, but he said that he got chased by dogs all of the time. The pitbull that bit me wasn't sicked on me, but she was vicious already. I was, I guess, about 8 and she saw me looking at her babies. She took this as a threat and latched on to my stomach. Scared the hell out of me. The same dog also bit my mom's leg and chased her on to a roof. Xpen Posted by: Starflier Feb 6 2004, 04:45 PM O geez, pit bulls are the worst. It's a wonder you got away from that one intact, if you did. I've always been afraid of dogs who are a very real danger. We weren't even allowed to carry pepper spray or mace in my city job. All of us on that job complained about that constantly. We were told to take a police officer with us on more dangerous occasions. But we never knew which first encounter with any city residents would be dangerous with or without dogs involved. Also every time I asked an officer to accompany me, they had more important things to do. There weren't nearly enough officers on the force to help any of out all the times we needed them. I mean we were doing the crap jobs they didn't have time for in the first place. Neither did cell phones or pagers even exist then. And we had no radio contact equipment in our cars. Several of us quit that way underpaid job or couldn't wait to find a better one for obvious reasons. 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