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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Prayer Posted by: _Kevin May 29 2004, 09:19 PM The subject of prayer interests me. Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? My hunch is that you would, but please enlighten me, since I don't know what you actually prayed for. (It's possible that some of you prayed to become an atheist, in which case your prayers were answered). Kevin: Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 29 2004, 09:59 PM Why does the subject of prayer interest you? It does not work (unless we consider placebo effect). You might as well pray to a brick... There are plenty of verses in the bible that say if you pray, you’ll get what you ask for from God. I post them again for you if you like. It’s a bunch of hooey Kevin. Additionally, have you ever considered that if prayer did work (as the bible falsely cites that it will), your God would essentially be performing in the role of showman, who performs tricks to wow and amaze the masses? “Dear Heavenly Father, please grant [insert supplication here], for thou knowest not so well as I. In Jesus name. Amen” Why don’t you try some analytical field tests, and pray for something that would convince us that that prayer works, and then get back to us? Posted by: _Kevin May 29 2004, 10:10 PM RA QUOTE There are plenty of verses in the bible that say if you pray, you’ll get what you ask for from God. I post them again for you if you like. It’s a bunch of hooey Kevin. RA I appreciate your response, although you didn't answer the question. I know this is turning back the clock for some, but it could also have a cathartic value. Kevin: Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 29 2004, 10:22 PM In my opinion, I deem your question to be somewhat intrusive on a personal level. Asking what someone prays for, or used to pray for is like asking what somebody's birthday wish was for. The wish is for the wisher to know. That being said, rest assured that if I found a mystical formula that I could have successfully employed which would grant my hearts desires, I would still be making use of it. Posted by: formerfundie May 29 2004, 10:39 PM QUOTE (Reality Amplifier @ May 29 2004, 09:59 PM) Why does the subject of prayer interest you? It does not work (unless we consider placebo effect). You might as well pray to a brick... Kevin - no - if ALL my prayers were answered, I still would not be a christian today. Being a christian or not being a christian has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT A PRAYER GETS ANSWERED. There are LOTS of people who believe in "god" and who believe in "jesus" as the "son of 'god'" - who believe the 'bible' is the 'word' of 'god' - who NEVER question being a 'christian' whether their prayers get answered or not. Christianity is a matter of belief, atheism is a matter of a lack thereof. You're right, Reality - answered prayer can definitely be attributed to the 'placebo effect' - I'd like to do more study on this though. I find it fascinating what the human mind and imagination is capable of - power of positive thinking and all that. "If one prays to a rock..." - posted in the what about 'god' thread. Posted by: Casey May 29 2004, 10:55 PM QUOTE The subject of prayer interests me. Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? My hunch is that you would, but please enlighten me, since I don't know what you actually prayed for. (It's possible that some of you prayed to become an atheist, in which case your prayers were answered). Kevin: Well, since it interests you so much, I'll tell you. At around age thirteen, my eyes went bad (myopia) and I wanted 'em fixed. At that time (early Seventies) there was no cure for this condition; you just had to wear glasses or contacts the rest of your natural. As it happens I didn't think too much of this idea. Now I'd heard back when JC was the fullback of the Jerusalem 1sts, he used to cure the halt, the lame and the blind. That's when Himself could spare the time between minor magics like making bootleg booze, feeding the multitudes and raising the dead, of course. I wasn't blind. All that was needed was to reshape the corneas of my eyes by a few tiny fractions of a mil each, and bingo. "Ask and ye shall receive?" Not bloody likely! I forget how many times I asked for this simple thing to be done, but it never was. Being as I found this condition an insult to my great manhood, I got angrier and angrier. Finally in a drunken rage I kicked a bible from one end of a room to another, but that at least woke me up to what a joke it all was. There you go, Rebecca! There's bible god what made us all, and he's too slack and idle to make me a decent pair of eyes. Then there's Dear Dilapidated Jasus who couldn't be bothered to intervene to fix his old man's mistakes. What's the good of 'em? I'd got so down over this I was fixing to shoot myself, but them two idle cows would have just sat on their beam ends and watched me do it. In the end I got my eyes lasered. That worked. Cost me two grand an eye, but it wasn't so much I prayed for it as that I paid for it. And , don't anyone bother telling me that "my prayers were answered". All I learned from this is there's only a one letter difference between the word "pray" and the word "pay", but what a difference one letter makes! Casey Posted by: formerfundie May 29 2004, 10:58 PM Good response, Casey! Posted by: Casey May 29 2004, 11:19 PM QUOTE That being said, rest assured that if I found a mystical formula that I could have successfully employed which would grant my hearts desires, I would still be making use of it. (Reality Amplifier) If I had a system that could really beat the neddies (race horses), the last thing I'd do would be give it away or sell it to all comers for twenty bucks. As with that, so with prayer. If it really worked, d'you imagine good Christian Capitalists would give away the secret for free? We'd all have been paying for it yonks ago. It doesn't work as advertised, but it's a great hook for fundy con artists, isn't it? Casey Posted by: Cerise May 30 2004, 01:16 AM Prayer is useless, with or without God. Either He has a plan that is unchangeable or he doesn't. Either God's going to give you want you want, with or without asking for it, or he won't. Christians usually say that if a prayer doesn't come true then "it wasn't something God wanted for you". Well if all you're going to get is what God wants for you, why pray? Apparently, God can't be swayed by prayer or His "perfect plan" is fucked. At least, that's what I was told when I asked a woman why God didn't answer my prayer to stop my abuse. Apparently, abuse was in the "perfect plan" or something. Posted by: Doug2 May 30 2004, 01:41 AM People always ask me to pray for their mission trips. If I pray that your mission trip wins no converts and gets rained out, and turns everyone away from christianity, will that happen? Prayer is just people calling out for help when they are out of options. Gee, I hope some way, some how, things work out mysteriously, cause I am afraid, and I don't know what to do. If only someone knew everything and had the power to change anything. Posted by: Rhiannon May 30 2004, 01:46 AM Kevin, I prayed for a great many things, some trivial for an all powerful and loving god, some not so trivial. Nothing was trivial to me however. I never asked for something that I didn't think was worthwhile. I asked for the bullying to stop, I asked for the pain to die down when I was injured, I asked for the sick to be healed, I asked for the grief to to be eased when they then died, I asked for their souls to be taken into heaven. I asked to be able to see my uncle before he died. I rushed to the hospital and saw him one last time ... he died 10 minutes after I left the room. For long enough this filled me with love for god, I thanked and praised him repeatedly that this request was granted to me. My gran died when I was parking the car in the car park before seeing her. Why was one simple request denied and another granted? Of course, I can see now that it was just timing that allowed it to happen. No intervention required here, just biology, traffic and timing. If all my prayers were answered, no I still don't think I would be a christian because I started to read the bible from cover to cover and it made me angry and disgusted. I can accept that some people worship a loving and all powerful creator. I did for long enough. I cannot accept that these people have read the bible and still believe this creator is all powerful and loving. The only place it is described is in the bible, and from this I can see that this so called creator is petty, childish and down right evil at times. The bible itself is written in a number of different ways, so much so that the OT seems to refer to a different creator than the gospels, who refer to a different creator again from the acts and letters. And I wont even mention Revelations, as its just ravings of a madman. The first step for me was to realise that I couldn't worship, hell I couldn't even RESPECT a creator like that. I stopped viewing the world from a divine intervention point of view and realised eventually that NOTHING happened because of a god. Giving up my last vestiges of hope for an afterlife was an extremely hard thing for me to do but eventually I came to realise that there was no creator, no god, no jesus, no holy spirit. If all of my prayers were answered, there would be some indicator of a supernatural presence concerned about my well being and the well being of others. I may have decided to respect that being, but it could not have been the christian god, it kills children and condones rape and slavery. I cannot condone these things, how could I worship a deity that did. Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 09:41 AM Thanks for the replies: RA: I am not asking for WHAT you prayed for specifically. There is no personal intrusion involved here. FF: I disagree with you. I think it is a major reason for people leaving the church, or the beginning of their disilussionment with God. See below Casey: See above. Cerise: Your response did not address the question. Doug2: See above. Rhiannon: Thank you for your honesty. Sorry if I appear impatient, but the evasiveness in the answers is quite clear, so I believe my hunch is correct. The phrase "What have you done for me lately?" that people scream at one another before they separate, comes to mind. Kevin: Posted by: Cerise May 30 2004, 09:44 AM Kevin, if God had just answered me in ANY way, prayer, a sign, a voice, whatever, then I would have stayed. He didn't. I didn't. End of story. Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 09:50 AM Cerise: QUOTE Kevin, if God had just answered me in ANY way, prayer, a sign, a voice, whatever, then I would have stayed. He didn't. I didn't. End of story. Thank you for your honesty Cerise. Kevin: Posted by: SaviorForSale May 30 2004, 09:51 AM Prayer does work...sometimes....but Not because Jesus or God is helping you out. It is all in your head. Because you are praying for something, you focus all of your attention and try to make sure that it happens...thus proving that Jesus loves you. It makes no difference whether yo pray to God, Allah, or a rock. Personally I would choose the rock...at least it is real. Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 30 2004, 09:54 AM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 12:19 AM) The subject of prayer interests me. Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? My hunch is that you would, but please enlighten me, since I don't know what you actually prayed for. (It's possible that some of you prayed to become an atheist, in which case your prayers were answered). Kevin: Let me remove the mysticism of prayer and get to the heart of this question. If I were able to communicate directly with god in the same way in which I communicate with everyone else, then yes, I would believe god exists. (I would need further proof that he's capable of miracles, creating the universe, etc.) Would I be a christian? That's harder to say. Unless god could convince me that he's not the blood-thirsty tyrant that the bible shows him to be, I doubt that I would want to worship him. Posted by: Reach May 30 2004, 10:03 AM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 12:19 AM) Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? Forget EVERYTHING. I needed ONE THING. If ONE THING I have prayed for, for SEVEN YEARS had been granted I would not be in the middle of a marriage that has crashed and burned. Fortunately my spouse is a great friend and will remain so but I only needed ONE THING from God. So much for answered prayers... how tragic. Posted by: R.C. May 30 2004, 10:05 AM QUOTE Sorry if I appear impatient, but the evasiveness in the answers is quite clear, so I believe my hunch is correct. The phrase "What have you done for me lately?" that people scream at one another before they separate, comes to mind. Kevin, you know, there is another issue that needs to be addressed before you can ask anyone here about praying to the xtian god ( and praying to the xtian god is what you are implying). That issue, is that prayers are answered with equal scores as simply wishing...or praying to a tree. Try praying to a tree sometime; you'll be astonished at the similar results. Sometimes the tree grants you your prayers request; sometimes the tree god denies your prayer, because in all it's omniscience, it knows that granting your request may prove disasterous for you. I am going to go out right now and pray to the tree in our backyard, that I will receive new orders this week in my business. Now if I receive any new orders this week, then that prayer was answered; proving that praying to a tree works. And, if I receive any orders, that will de-value the shit out of the effectiveness of praying to the xtian god. I'll keep you posted on this experiment. Bow to the tree god. RC Posted by: Joshua May 30 2004, 10:11 AM QUOTE (SaviorForSale @ May 30 2004, 09:51 AM) Prayer does work...sometimes....but Not because Jesus or God is helping you out. It is all in your head. Because you are praying for something, you focus all of your attention and try to make sure that it happens...thus proving that Jesus loves you. It makes no difference whether yo pray to God, Allah, or a rock. Personally I would choose the rock...at least it is real. Muslims are rock worshippers. Yeah, the devout ones turn to it five times a day and pray. Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 10:18 AM TF QUOTE Let me remove the mysticism of prayer and get to the heart of this question. TF: Let me remove the mysticism from your reply and get to the heart of the question. The answers would be in the form of Yes or No. 1: Were you a christian? 2: Did you ever pray to God? 3: Did you ever ask Him for anything specific (little red bike etc.) 4: Did you receive said bike? 5: Were you angry with Him for not giving you the bike? 6: Did you pray every day for your little red bike? 7: Did you finally get fed up and stop praying? 8: Did you eventually leave the church after many years as a christian, because He obviously wasn't listening. 9: Are you a non-believer now? 10: IF YOU HAD RECEIVED YOUR LITTLE RED BIKE, AND EVERYTHING ELSE YOU PRAYED FOR, WOULD YOU STILL BE A CHRISTIAN TODAY? Kevin: (Sorry to hear about the demise of your marriage Reach) Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 30 2004, 10:28 AM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 01:18 PM) TF QUOTE Let me remove the mysticism of prayer and get to the heart of this question. TF: Let me remove the mysticism from your reply and get to the heart of the question. The answers would be in the form of Yes or No. 1: Were you a christian? 2: Did you ever pray to God? 3: Did you ever ask Him for anything specific (little red bike etc.) 4: Did you receive said bike? 5: Were you angry with Him for not giving you the bike? 6: Did you pray every day for your little red bike? 7: Did you finally get fed up and stop praying? 8: Did you eventually leave the church after many years as a christian, because He obviously wasn't listening. 9: Are you a non-believer now? 10: IF YOU HAD RECEIVED YOUR LITTLE RED BIKE, AND EVERYTHING ELSE YOU PRAYED FOR, WOULD YOU STILL BE A CHRISTIAN TODAY? OK Kevin, I'll play along. 1. Yes (of course, it depends on whose rules you are following - by Southern Baptist rules, yes. By Church of Christ or Catholic rules, no) 2. Yes 3. Yes (healing for friend with cancer, salvation for lost friends, etc.) 4. No - to the specific requests listed above. Of course there were things for which I prayed that did occur. Such as "give us this day our daily bread". I haven't had a day go by yet that I didn't get the bread, even after I became an atheist. 5. No 6. That's quite open-ended. I prayed frequently for the items in #3. 7. Yes 8. No - I left because god doesn't exist, not because he's deaf or unwilling to keep his promises. 9. Yes 10. If everytime I asked for something I got it I would think that I was a god. As for being a christian - see my earlier reply about blood-thirsty tyrant. Now, tell me what your point is or I'll pray that you vanish. Posted by: chefranden May 30 2004, 11:14 AM QUOTE (Casey @ May 30 2004, 12:55 AM) In the end I got my eyes lasered. That worked. Cost me two grand an eye, but it wasn't so much I prayed for it as that I paid for it. And , don't anyone bother telling me that "my prayers were answered". All I learned from this is there's only a one letter difference between the word "pray" and the word "pay", but what a difference one letter makes! Casey Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 11:36 AM Chef: (German SS officer type accent) Schtopp larfing und arnzer ze qvestchionz dumbkopf!!! Kevin: (With apologies to Tocis. Not really) Posted by: chefranden May 30 2004, 11:54 AM The first time I was a Xian I prayed: 1. Now I lay me down to sleep... Not answered because I didn't die before I waked. 2. The Lords prayer: Not answered in 1960 because sometimes we didn't have daily bread. My national guard dad was called up and they didn't bother to pay him for 6 months. Not answered generally if God's will is peace on earth. 3. For a bike around age 8: Not answered. Eventually I bought it myself -- used, mowing lawns and shoveling walks for $.50 a pop. The second time I was a Xian I prayed: 1. To be content with the amount of sex my wife was willing to give: Not answered. Venlafaxine eventually took care of the problem. 2. To have the nightmares end: Not answered. 3. Didn't pray for material things: Answered. 4. Stopped praying in words (except from the pulpit) and practiced centered prayer, sort of like Xian Zazen -- based on things like QUOTE (Isaiah) 30 Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:31 but they that wait for Jehovah shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; they shall walk, and not faint. Still waiting? No, I'm not stupid enough. Posted by: Reach May 30 2004, 12:06 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 01:18 PM) Kevin: Sorry to hear about the demise of your marriage Reach. Thank you, Kevin. I'm sorry the marriage seems to have crashed and burned. I hope you can understand why I don't want to spend a lot of time on this debating forum at the moment. From our perspective, God failed us. I hope all is well with you. As far as you and me are concerned, I harbor no grudges. Seriously. ~ Reach Posted by: Luck Mermaid May 30 2004, 12:07 PM It doesn't mattre how many times you ask a question. A gainst logic, against reason, against fairness - it will remain. By coming to this site you are probably experiencing a bit of personal anger that something that no loving god would allow to happen is happening or you are going through.. I do'nt think its' right, and I don't know why this is the way it is. No answer will be good enough for you, even if people were to tell you what you were hoping to hear, it still wouldn't be good enough. I nyour heart you probably know something is wrong. Posted by: PseudoGod May 30 2004, 12:43 PM I can only really remember sincerely praying 2 times in my whole life: 1. About 5 years ago I was on a NW Airlines flight from Chicago to Phoenix, on a Boeing 747. About 20 minutes into the flight at cruising altitude, all of a sudden the planes engines just stopped while we were in mid-air. You really don't realize how loud the inside of a plane is with the engines going until they all suddenly stop and all you hear is total silence and the wind whistling in the cracks and the wings as the plane glides along and slowly starts to descend. I have never been so terrified in all my life. I, along with probably everyone else on that plane, sat there petrified in total silence, praying to any and all gods that would hear us, to spare us from dying in a plane slamming into the earth at 400 miles an hour. After what probably was about a minute and a half max (honestly I don't even know how long it was), suddenly the engines roared to life and were once again operational. The pilot then came on and said there appeared to be a "slight" mechanical problem (his exact words), and that we would be making and "unscheduled" stop in Minneapolis. We landed with no further incident and switched planes. This prayer was answered, but for all I knew maybe it was Shiva who answered the Hindu passengers prayers, I couldn't say. 2. I prayed repeatedly for god to take all sexual desire, lust ect. away because I know how much he hated sin and it seemed he would be more than happy to take it away from me, being that he hated it so much. After multiple prayer attempts, prayer was never answered. If God really did take away all my sinful sexual desire, I don't know if I would have stayed Christian or not, since that wasn't the reason I left. Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 30 2004, 12:50 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 30 2004, 01:03 PM) QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 12:19 AM) Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? Forget EVERYTHING. I needed ONE THING. If ONE THING I have prayed for, for SEVEN YEARS had been granted I would not be in the middle of a marriage that has crashed and burned. Fortunately my spouse is a great friend and will remain so but I only needed ONE THING from God. So much for answered prayers... how tragic. Reach, I'm sorry to hear this. TF Posted by: chefranden May 30 2004, 12:56 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 30 2004, 12:03 PM) QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 12:19 AM) Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? Forget EVERYTHING. I needed ONE THING. If ONE THING I have prayed for, for SEVEN YEARS had been granted I would not be in the middle of a marriage that has crashed and burned. Fortunately my spouse is a great friend and will remain so but I only needed ONE THING from God. So much for answered prayers... how tragic. Reach, Sometimes I wish there was a god so that I could thwap it with a baseball bat come judgement day. Peace to you, chef Posted by: Doug2 May 30 2004, 01:07 PM Some of the things I prayed for came true, others didn't. If god answered none of my prayers but this one "Show me you are true" Then I would still follow him. As TF said, if god answered all my prayers, I would be a god and would not need christianity. No one else would either, since I would prayer that all sentient creatures that ever existed would be sent to heaven and the physical universe destroyed. Enough with this game of pain, let's all live in happiness in a perfect place. Posted by: Shadfox May 30 2004, 01:10 PM Kevin, I believe you're hinting we've all been praying for things selfish and materialistic, and being denied these is what lead to our deconversion. Unlike the "Name it, claim it" prosperity Christians I never expected god to be a cash machine. All I ever asked for was confirmation of myself and of god. Acknowledgment. And none came. To say we're in the wrong for no longer praying to something completely uncaring, unresponsive and nonexistent shows much about your warped worldview. Posted by: bob May 30 2004, 01:11 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 29 2004, 09:19 PM) If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? Hell, I never got anything I prayed for, as far as I can remember. I spent most of my time praying that I would be more "Christ like". I never prayed out of greed. I just wanted to please Jesus by being more like him. He never answered...the fucker. Posted by: Reach May 30 2004, 01:19 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 30 2004, 03:56 PM) Reach, Sometimes I wish there was a god so that I could thwap it with a baseball bat come judgement day. Peace to you, chef I can relate to that, Chef. Exactly. Thanks friend. QUOTE (TexasFreethinker @ May 30 2004, 03:50 PM) Reach, I'm sorry to hear this. TF Thanks, TF. I'll start a thread on this in a few days, in a different forum. I don't want to derail Kevin's topic. Reach Posted by: Doug2 May 30 2004, 01:19 PM Reach, we all groan with you and hope for a swift return to peace in your life. Posted by: Shadfox May 30 2004, 01:22 PM QUOTE Thanks, TF. I'll start a thread on this in a few days, in a different forum. I don't want to derail Kevin's topic. Feel free to PM me or contact me by instant message if you ever want to chat about this. I'm so sorry you're going through a rough time. Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 01:24 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 29 2004, 09:19 PM) The subject of prayer interests me. Question: If EVERYTHING that you prayed for when you were a christian had been given to you, would you still be a christian today? My hunch is that you would, but please enlighten me, since I don't know what you actually prayed for. (It's possible that some of you prayed to become an atheist, in which case your prayers were answered). Kevin: I really don't like what you are insinuating here and why would one pray to become an atheist? That makes no sense whatsoever. When I prayed, if my prayers were answered, more power to god. If they weren't, once again, more power to god for he knew more than I. What answer do you want here? Reach, hope all turns out good for you and the ones you love. Posted by: bob May 30 2004, 01:25 PM Reach, I am hoping for the best for your life. Please keep us informed. Use us for support. Posted by: Reach May 30 2004, 01:26 PM QUOTE (Shadfox @ May 30 2004, 04:22 PM) Feel free to PM me or contact me by instant message if you ever want to chat about this. I'm so sorry you're going through a rough time. You can count on it, my friend. Thank you, Shadfox. And thanks, Doug. Nothing like Christianity crashing in an entire family over one unanswered prayer... Notblindedbytheblight... thanks so much. Being a questioning type of person, I never was completely blind anyway but it's good to be free. Bob, I still have a wonderful life. Thank you. This place and the people here are the greatest. Reach Posted by: Doug2 May 30 2004, 01:27 PM Notblinded, I think a lot of us are feeling the same way. As a christian, god was always right. As long as I believed in god and christianity, it was always my fault. God was never wrong/nonexistant. Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 30 2004, 01:31 PM Reach, My thoughts and heart go out to you. Hang in there! Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 01:32 PM QUOTE (Doug2 @ May 30 2004, 01:27 PM) Notblinded, I think a lot of us are feeling the same way. As a christian, god was always right. As long as I believed in god and christianity, it was always my fault. God was never wrong/nonexistant. Indeed...nothing like feeling inferior most of our lives huh? Humility is one thing, but an inferiority complex is another. Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 30 2004, 01:41 PM There are many verses in the bible which assert that prayer works. * Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you (Matthew 7:7) Criteria: (1) Ask and (2) it shall be given. * For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (Matthew 7:8 ) Criteria: (1) Ask and (2) receive. (1) Seek and (2) find. (1) Knock and it shall (2) be opened. * If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matthew 7:11) Criteria: Ask bible-God for good things and get them. * Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:19) Criteria: There are no qualifiers to this statement. (1) Two individuals agree on what they will ask, (2) they ask and (3) it shall be done by bible-God. * And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matthew 21:22) Criteria: All things will be received. The only requirement is "believing". There are no other requirements here. * But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. (John 11:22) Criteria: Just as in John 3:16, a "whatsoever" no qualifier. Ask and bible-God will give it. * And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (John 14:13) Criteria: Just ask for whatsoever in Jesus name and it will be done. * If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:7) Criteria: A qualifier here. You must live in Christ and his words must live in you. * Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (John 16:23) Criteria: Yet another "whatsover". Ask and get. * Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. (John 16:24) Criteria: A continuation of the above verse. Ask and receive. No qualifiers. * If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (James 1:5) Criteria: No exceptions. It uses the words "any" and "all". * Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. (James 4:2) Criteria: You don't have because you don't ask. Just ask… * And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us (1 John 5:14) Criteria: A qualifier. Just ask according to bible-God's will. * And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (1 John 5:15) Criteria: No qualifier. Bible-God hears us - whatsoever we ask. We then know that we get what we asked for. I've tried this out Kevin, and clearly these are lies. I admit there is one contradiction I've observed in my life. I've alwasy sought to learn, and like Solomon, I did pray for wisdom. Evidently my prayer was granted, or I cultivated enough wisdom on my own by studing and seeking to sharpen my critical thinking skills...and I was finally able to determine it's all a bunch of hooey. Cheers Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 01:52 PM Shad: QUOTE To say we're in the wrong for no longer praying to something completely uncaring, unresponsive and nonexistent shows much about your warped worldview. Shad: Aren't you being a little bit harsh here? I don't believe I said anyone was wrong, I just wanted a simple answer to a tricky question. What is my point? Is our faith conditionally based on what's in it for us. If the *blessings* are not forthcoming, is that the reason we lose faith in God. If we pray, and pray, and pray, and pray, and nothing appears to be happening, I think it would be natural to feel discouraged. Depending on our background, rejection is a cruel beast to handle. If it appears that God has also abandoned us, that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, faithwise. I think it depends on what stage we are at in life, and what's going on around us. Kevin: Reach: Thanks for being so generous with your kindness during this difficult time. It speaks volumes for you. Posted by: I Broke Free May 30 2004, 02:07 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 30 2004, 04:56 PM) Sometimes I wish there was a god so that I could thwap it with a baseball bat come judgement day. I was always wondering if God had a supervisor I could complain too? Posted by: I Broke Free May 30 2004, 02:17 PM QUOTE (bob @ May 30 2004, 05:11 PM) Hell, I never got anything I prayed for, as far as I can remember. I spent most of my time praying that I would be more "Christ like". I never prayed out of greed. I just wanted to please Jesus by being more like him. He never answered...the fucker. Same here; I never prayed for anyTHING. I only prayed for strength, guidance and wisdom. I desperately wanted to be relieved of my homosexual orientation so that I would be deemed worthy in the eyes of God. The silence was deafening!! Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 02:50 PM NotB QUOTE I really don't like what you are insinuating here and why would one pray to become an atheist? That makes no sense whatsoever. When I prayed, if my prayers were answered, more power to god. If they weren't, once again, more power to god for he knew more than I. What answer do you want here? NBBTL: I think I will have to preface my humorous comments in future. I was not insinuating anything detrimental to anyone's well being. All I really wanted to hear in answer to my original question was: "Yes. If EVERYTHING that I prayed for had been given to me, I would probably still be a christian today" I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. Kevin: Posted by: PseudoGod May 30 2004, 03:07 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 02:50 PM) I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. Now that I think about it, I did pray once during a craps game that the shooter would roll a hard 8 since I had roughly $250 on the table at the time and stood to win a decent amount of money if he did. Well, he did roll a hard 8 the very next roll (which is pretty slim odds) and I walked away with almost a grand. So I can conclude one of three things: 1. God answers prayers which are selfish and greedy in nature and result in material gain. 2. It was part of "God's Plan" for me to be out gambling, drinking and smoking and winning money, all while I was a Christian. 3. My prayer wasn't answered, the dice came up a hard 8 because odds are eventually someone is going to roll a hard 8. I would say 3 is the most probable.... Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 03:08 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 02:50 PM) NotB QUOTE I really don't like what you are insinuating here and why would one pray to become an atheist? That makes no sense whatsoever. When I prayed, if my prayers were answered, more power to god. If they weren't, once again, more power to god for he knew more than I. What answer do you want here? NBBTL: I think I will have to preface my humorous comments in future. I was not insinuating anything detrimental to anyone's well being. All I really wanted to hear in answer to my original question was: "Yes. If EVERYTHING that I prayed for had been given to me, I would probably still be a christian today" I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. Kevin: But you see, in you admitting that is the answer you want, you are suggesting that we are rebellious because we did not get what we prayed for. Rebellion is a fundamentalist view of many that have turned from the faith. In order for you to understand, you must take more variables into play. We investigated, studied, reasoned and logically came to the conclusion that the bible must be false. Unanswered prayers may have initially set us on our journey, along with other things, but the eye opening investigations are far more important than unanswered prayers. Posted by: R.C. May 30 2004, 03:13 PM QUOTE (PseudoGod @ May 30 2004, 03:07 PM) QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 02:50 PM) I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. Now that I think about it, I did pray once during a craps game that the shooter would roll a hard 8 since I had roughly $250 on the table at the time and stood to win a decent amount of money if he did. Well, he did roll a hard 8 the very next roll (which is pretty slim odds) and I walked away with almost a grand. So I can conclude one of three things: 1. God answers prayers which are selfish and greedy in nature and result in material gain. 2. It was part of "God's Plan" for me to be out gambling, drinking and smoking and winning money, all while I was a Christian. 3. My prayer wasn't answered, the dice came up a hard 8 because odds are eventually someone is going to roll a hard 8. I would say 3 is the most probable.... According to Kevin's logic, god answered your prayer. You prayed... then got what you prayed for...it's that simple. If I get a new order this week in my business, the tree god will have answered my prayer, thus validating the existence of the tree god. RC Posted by: PseudoGod May 30 2004, 03:19 PM QUOTE (R.C. @ May 30 2004, 03:13 PM) If I get a new order this week in my business, the tree god will have answered my prayer, thus validating the existence of the tree god. Funny you should say that, because now when I gamble I always pray to Snake Eye and Pai Gow, the mystical magical all-knowing, all-powerful Gods of the Casinos. My prayers have been answered many times, therefore not only does Jehova and Jesus exist, but so do Snake Eye and Pai Gow! Posted by: R.C. May 30 2004, 03:23 PM QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ May 30 2004, 03:08 PM) Unanswered prayers may have initially set us on our journey, along with other things, but the eye opening investigations are far more important than unanswered prayers. You said it! For me, the unanswered prayers were written off to god's all-knowing wisdom. This was an extremely small, almost non-existant issue for my rejecting xtianity as false. Biblical errors and philosophical problems were the main thrust. It appears that Kevin is assuming that the prayer issue is what did everyone's faith in. You are wrong about this Kevin. I sensed that your questions had a strawman quality to them, I just could'nt quite discern what it was exactly. Thanks NBBTL! RC Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 03:33 PM QUOTE (R.C. @ May 30 2004, 03:23 PM) QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ May 30 2004, 03:08 PM) Unanswered prayers may have initially set us on our journey, along with other things, but the eye opening investigations are far more important than unanswered prayers. You said it! For me, the unanswered prayers were written off to god's all-knowing wisdom. This was an extremely small, almost non-existant issue for my rejecting xtianity as false. Biblical errors and philosophical problems were the main thrust. It appears that Kevin is assuming that the prayer issue is what did everyone's faith in. You are wrong about this Kevin. I sensed that your questions had a strawman quality to them, I just could'nt quite discern what it was exactly. Thanks NBBTL! RC I couldn't quite discern what it was either but I knew there was something not nice about what he was insinuating. Then when he answered my question directly and stated, QUOTE - Kevin - I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. I knew what he was getting at. I don't even know if he knew what he was suggesting, but it is now obvious. Posted by: Shadfox May 30 2004, 04:14 PM QUOTE Shad: Aren't you being a little bit harsh here? I don't believe I said anyone was wrong, I just wanted a simple answer to a tricky question. What is my point? Is our faith conditionally based on what's in it for us. If the *blessings* are not forthcoming, is that the reason we lose faith in God. If we pray, and pray, and pray, and pray, and nothing appears to be happening, I think it would be natural to feel discouraged. Depending on our background, rejection is a cruel beast to handle. If it appears that God has also abandoned us, that might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, faithwise. I think it depends on what stage we are at in life, and what's going on around us. Well, I admit it was harsh. You have to realize you're hitting hot buttons here and such questions have been asked in the past by others with more transparent motives. Sorry I didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, but a god who plays coy when you're on your knees begging is no god of mine. What would be your suggestion? Shall we continue to pray, pray, pray, pray and pray endlessly until the random act of chance comes along for us to draw confirmation on? Posted by: Casey May 30 2004, 04:35 PM My condolences Reach. I hope all works out for the best. Regards, Casey Posted by: Reach May 30 2004, 05:57 PM QUOTE (R.C. @ May 30 2004, 06:23 PM) QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ May 30 2004, 03:08 PM) Unanswered prayers may have initially set us on our journey, along with other things, but the eye opening investigations are far more important than unanswered prayers. You said it! For me, the unanswered prayers were written off to god's all-knowing wisdom. This was an extremely small, almost non-existant issue for my rejecting xtianity as false. Biblical errors and philosophical problems were the main thrust. I agree. Add to that the scholarly deception of about 2000 years and deceitful doctrines which appear as possible methods to control the masses. In my case the one unanswered prayer was simply the final piece of straw that broke the camel's back, one more piece of straw on a mountain full. I realized I was bankrupt; I couldn't trust my banker because he had embezzled those deposits I had already made. Wrong forest. RC, let us know if you get the new orders. I wish you all the best in your business. Tree or no tree god. =================================== Thanks, Reality Amplifier and Casey. It will work. We'll get through it. Life is good. Posted by: IAm_Lucifer May 30 2004, 06:03 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 30 2004, 05:57 PM) QUOTE (R.C. @ May 30 2004, 06:23 PM) QUOTE (notblindedbytheblight @ May 30 2004, 03:08 PM) Unanswered prayers may have initially set us on our journey, along with other things, but the eye opening investigations are far more important than unanswered prayers. You said it! For me, the unanswered prayers were written off to god's all-knowing wisdom. This was an extremely small, almost non-existant issue for my rejecting xtianity as false. Biblical errors and philosophical problems were the main thrust. I agree. Add to that the scholarly deception of about 2000 years and deceitful doctrines which appear as possible methods to control the masses. In my case the one unanswered prayer was simply the final piece of straw that broke the camel's back, one more piece of straw on a mountain full. Have I missed something? Is Reach an exchristian now? Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 07:17 PM NBBTL: QUOTE But you see, in you admitting that is the answer you want, you are suggesting that we are rebellious because we did not get what we prayed for. The reply I had originally hoped for was a simple yes or no. The subsequent evasiveness confirmed the suspicions I had. A simple "NO" would have shut me up 3 pages ago. I have never suggested anyone is rebellious. I'm sure you would have quoted me if I had. Shad QUOTE What would be your suggestion? Shall we continue to pray, pray, pray, pray and pray endlessly until the random act of chance comes along for us to draw confirmation on? Shad I will say that when people pray, they already have an agenda they want fulfilled. They want what they are praying for, not God's will, which scripture mentions. If you are looking/expecting a "YES" then you probably won't see the "NO". Kevin: Posted by: Lokmer May 30 2004, 07:27 PM QUOTE (IAm_Lucifer @ May 30 2004, 07:03 PM) Have I missed something? Is Reach an exchristian now? That seems to be the general nub of her drift. -Lokmer Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 07:37 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 07:17 PM) A simple "NO" would have shut me up 3 pages ago. I have never suggested anyone is rebellious. I'm sure you would have quoted me if I had. Maybe it would have shut you up but what notion would you have gone away with? QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 02:50 PM) QUOTE I realise that admitting this makes one sound very selfish and greedy, and that is why so few people were able to answer it directly. From the latter part of that statement, it appears you have a preconceived notion that we would still be christians if our prayers were answered. But, we are leary of answering it directly because we would be admitting to being selfish and greedy and therefore we did not have a true understanding of the scriptures when it comes to god's will. Is that what the 3 no answers would have left you with? I can't just let you get the impression that was the case. It appears you were looking for a self-fullfilling idea that you could leave here with. Sorry I could not comply as with most here. Posted by: notblindedbytheblight May 30 2004, 07:50 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 07:17 PM) The reply I had originally hoped for was a simple yes or no. The subsequent evasiveness confirmed the suspicions I had. Right there you admit to having 'suspicions' before you formed your question, which is fair if you form the question and it's answers fairly, in which you didn't. Evasiveness? You wanted a yes or no answer to a question that cannot be directly answered yes or no without feeding your suspicions. Obviously, it can't be answered truthfully without feeding you suspicions. Answer yes = we are selfish and did not understand the ways of god. Answer no = we are afraid to admit we are selfish and didn't know the ways of god. Many tried to explain to you what happened when we prayed, what was prayed for, and the results and then tried to explain to you what was the DRIVING force for us to leave christianity. It was not ONLY unanswered prayers, and for the most part, that was a MINOR issue. Ask a question from people that have been where you are and don't expect a simple answer. What you asked cannot be answered yes or no. Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 30 2004, 07:53 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 10:17 PM) I will say that when people pray, they already have an agenda they want fulfilled. They want what they are praying for, not God's will, which scripture mentions. If you are looking/expecting a "YES" then you probably won't see the "NO". Actually, scripture is contradictory on this. As quoted earlier in this thread, there are several NT verses that say you should ask specifically for what you want, and that you don't get what you want because you don't ask for it. None of those verses make sense if the only prayer that's appropriate is one that asks god to do what god wants to do anyway. Think about it, there would never be any way to tell if these prayers are successful, since no one knows the will of god. How convenient. Posted by: Shadfox May 30 2004, 07:59 PM QUOTE I will say that when people pray, they already have an agenda they want fulfilled. They want what they are praying for, not God's will, which scripture mentions. If you are looking/expecting a "YES" then you probably won't see the "NO". So we were wrong in praying for god to grace us with his presence because we were expecting a "yes, I'm real!" and for some reason that's not god's will. Wait, god would surely know that if I got confirmation then I wouldn't have become an atheist, so he chose to ignore me. That means it was his will that I become a disbeliever! Oh, to be a Christian again and truely care about these dilemmas..... Posted by: _Kevin May 30 2004, 09:10 PM Tex: QUOTE None of those verses make sense if the only prayer that's appropriate is one that asks god to do what god wants to do anyway. Think about it, there would never be any way to tell if these prayers are successful, since no one knows the will of god. Tex: I agree that it would be much simpler if God's will was crystal clear. I have had numererous discussions with my friends about this subject. God? Should I buy the small Mars bar, or the large one? <Silence> OK. I'll buy the large one then! My own recipe for knowing His will involves: prayer, bible, waiting, prayer, *listening*. Not necessary in that order though, and no magic potions are involved. Except eye of the newt of course. Kevin: Posted by: Cerise May 30 2004, 09:12 PM Ah, I see what the point of this was. So we're all greedy bastards who gave up Christianity because we didn't get that mercedes benz we asked God for, right? Except what I wanted most wasn't a mercedes benz. It was an answer from God. Child asks her father to speak to her, to appear in some identifiable form, to give more assurance then a moldy old book and the "wind in the trees" that he actually exists or gives a damn about her. Is that a selfish request? Is it an unreasonable thing to ask of someone who says he is all-powerful, who says he can and will give anything and everything to those that ask? Is it greed to ask for even one sure sign? In light of God's everlasting silence, isn't it perfectly reasonable to ask "what have you done for me lately"? What kind of person would not ask, who counts themselves so low? Who has so little self-esteem that this looks like greed to them? Posted by: Casey May 30 2004, 09:24 PM Kevin, I owe you an apology for responding in a sarcastic way to this topic. It's just that at ages eleven twelve and thirteen a lot happened to me that I didn't like, and that little eyesight problem was the final straw for me. It probably doesn't sound like much, yet it was a very big issue for me. As Cerise said: QUOTE Christians usually say that if a prayer doesn't come true then "it wasn't something God wanted for you". Well if all you're going to get is what God wants for you, why pray? To which I may add, a Christian once said to me, "Well, Christ died to save you from Hell. What more do you want?" He then went on to quote a famous verse the thrust of which is that it is not for the pot to argue with the potter who made it, which to me made it sound like God was of the opinion that "a fed hound won't hunt". Anyway, no hard feelings. I just wanted you to understand why I had to a bit. Casey Posted by: PseudoGod May 30 2004, 09:48 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 09:10 PM) My own recipe for knowing His will involves: prayer, bible, waiting, prayer, *listening*. Ok, I have a question. Lets say you are praying (and listening) and you at some point you successfully establish a synchronous communications link, which you have somehow confirmed, either by hearing voices in your head or some other means. How do you then validate the communication link is established with god, and not actually with Satan as a trick to decieve you? What tools or methodologies do you use to authenticate the link is with the correct invisible being? Also do you go through some additional checks and balances to validate and verify you aren't hallucinating and do indeed have an open commincations link with an external invisible being? Posted by: bob May 31 2004, 04:53 AM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 30 2004, 09:10 PM) My own recipe for knowing His will involves: prayer, bible, waiting, prayer, *listening*. Not necessary in that order though, and no magic potions are involved. Kevin, I have asked several christians, over the past few years, to give me an example of answered prayer. I have asked for one single example. But it has to be obvious. I don't want to hear about them asking god to help them to make a dicission. It has to be something that has very little, if any chance of being coincidence, or simple human intervention. I have yet to be presented with an example. I have heard third party examples, but no first hand experiences. Can you give me one? You know, something like; praying for someone to be raised from the dead, someone to have a severed limb grow back, someone's home that burned be miraculously restored to it's original condition, etc. Something tangible is needed. Or does your god deal only in the intangible? Does he only answer the small prayers and leave the big, life changing prayers unanswered? Kevin, please give me one single example of answered prayer that you have personally experienced. And if your only comment is; "Well, even if I gave you one, you wouldn't believe.", I'll fart in your general direction. Posted by: TexasFreethinker May 31 2004, 05:02 AM QUOTE (_Kevin @ May 31 2004, 12:10 AM) My own recipe for knowing His will involves: prayer, bible, waiting, prayer, *listening*. But even after all of that can you be absolutely certain that you know his will? Posted by: _Kevin May 31 2004, 05:09 AM Casey: QUOTE Anyway, no hard feelings. I just wanted you to understand why I had to a bit. Casey Hey Casey, we all need to vent a bit now and then. No offence taken! Kevin: Posted by: _Kevin May 31 2004, 05:30 AM PS QUOTE Ok, I have a question. Lets say you are praying (and listening) and you at some point you successfully establish a synchronous communications link, which you have somehow confirmed, either by hearing voices in your head or some other means. How do you then validate the communication link is established with god, and not actually with Satan as a trick to decieve you? What tools or methodologies do you use to authenticate the link is with the correct invisible being? Also do you go through some additional checks and balances to validate and verify you aren't hallucinating and do indeed have an open commincations link with an external invisible being? Pseudo: This is a tough question. My halo has been slipping recently so a lot of my thoughts are not godly. I suppose you could say these thoughts come from Satan, but I know they are not very nice when I'm actually thinking them. I would like to think Satan's influence in my life will diminish, as Christ's increases. As I stand on my ladder of faith I have some way to go, but I can look down and see how far I have come. As far as the "additional checks" are concerned, I don't have any. I have to trust that regardless of the choices I make. It is He who has put me where I am today. I believe the path is not always straight, and a little meandering only adds to our life experience. Kevin: Posted by: _Kevin May 31 2004, 05:42 AM Bob: QUOTE Kevin, please give me one single example of answered prayer that you have personally experienced. And if your only comment is; "Well, even if I gave you one, you wouldn't believe.", I'll fart in your general direction. Bob: We've been through this before Bob. Remember my asthma? It progressed to you and Chef asking for my doctor friends to provide some proof. Well my asthma has returned, so you can be jubilant over my stupid faith in god I suppose. No Bob, I can't provide any concrete proof of answered prayer. You win, I wheeze. Kevin: Posted by: bob May 31 2004, 06:26 AM Sorry about the asthma Kev, and sorry about my lousy memory, but my guess is that you remain unconvinced that the lack of answered prayer in your life is evidence that there is no such thing as answered prayer...?? Posted by: SaviorForSale May 31 2004, 03:27 PM Kevin: Probability: Either there is no god or he doesnt care about anyone enough to speak to them...much less answer their prayers. You can debate and debate and debate until you fall over dead but you will never prove that God is real...nor that he Isnt. The fact is that their has never been a proven case of contact with He/She/It. Which for me, personally, proves that He/She/It isnt there. If you truly believe that their is a God then you have created him yourself. He/She/It is nothing more than an imaginary friend that you need for some reason to make it through life easier. (my guess is the asthma) I hope you wake up soon, SFS Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |