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Posted by: sexkitten Oct 12 2004, 02:50 PM

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Posted by: Farasha Jan 14 2004, 01:47 AM
Alright so, as a Christian, I was always taught that porn is like the ABSOLUTE WORST EVIL (next to being an atheist). I would hear stories about how porn destroyed relationships, marriages, lives, etc. I myself have no first-hand expertise in the area, as I have never viewed porn.

So, I'd like to hear various people's opinions on the subject of pornography.

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 14 2004, 01:58 AM
QUOTE
as I have never viewed porn.

The front page of this site has an artistic nudes area that many would consider porn. It once had a christian nudes area, but it was losted. Basically it was old christian artwork with nude people in it.

I personally don't think uncovered human bodies are evil. Nor do I think having sex is evil, nor do I think pictures of either of the previous two are evil, nor do I think enjoying such a thing is evil. (Heck one of the polls on this site asked if nudity was wrong and my response was that forcing people to wear clothing they didn't need is wrong!) I think sex and erotica can be a beautiful, lovely, fun thing.

Like anything, there are exceptions. I don't agree with child porn, or any other porn with forced or coerced involvement. Like alcohol, if porn causes you a lot of problems, you may want to avoid, or limit yourself with it. Also porn is a big genre. Some of it is good, some of it is not. I don't like porn that treats anyone involved as an inferior. Unfortunately in a lot of porn, woman come off this way, but porn by no means must be this way, and there is a lot of it that is not.

One of our members here, named Vugiziview (Sorry V, I know I butchered your name) is the creature of an erotica site.

Posted by: Tocis Jan 14 2004, 02:39 AM
QUOTE (Farasha @ Jan 14 2004, 01:47 AM)
So, I'd like to hear various people's opinions on the subject of pornography.

Just like sexuality itself, as long as all the people involved agree to what's happening there's nothing wrong with it. Of course that's often hard to judge with porn.
Specifically this includes:
- those acting in porn
- those consuming porn and
- the partners of the consumers

One of the most important conclusions of the above is that child porn can never be legal in any way because it's all but impossible to judge whether a child involved really comprehends what's happening and thus is able to decide freely... even if the child wouldn't be physically forced to participate.

(I think the worst thing about porn is that it's still so much of a taboo, this practically forces people into hiding for acting in accordance with their instincts, and it leads to prostitutes not getting any kind of legal assistance. See the poll "should prostitution be legalized?"
Not mentioning that, as far as I know, often the ones crying out loudest about the evil and abomination of porn are the most rabid consumers of all that stuff...)

Posted by: Lokmer Jan 14 2004, 03:56 AM
Being a writer and photographer, I have been known to produce a goodly amount of erotica, some of it bordering on porn. Although I have no problem with a one-off fuck story or such, when it gets into actual footage of people I think the ethics get a little diceyer. The porn industry has its dark patches where horriffic things go on and is a vehicle for organized crime to launder money, which raises some interesting ethical issues. On the other hand, the subject matter itself is not something I have a problem with. Then again, I would tend to define "porn" a little more narrowly than many people would, and I see a qualitative value difference between erotica and pornography. I quote from an article I wrote on the ethics of erotic art (wrote this while I was still a Christian, BTW):

Pornographic photography, is exploitative by definition. It reduces its subjects to sexual apperatuses - and while there is nothing wrong with enjoying and exalting the sexuality of a subject, to exploit it is to rob the subject of his or her humanity and beauty,and to divorce sex from humanity in the mind of the audience. This is, perhaps, the qualitative difference between erotic art and pornographic art. Erotic art focuses on beauty and sensuality. Pornography focuses exclusively on the objects and mechanics of sex, often mixed with other forms of degradation. Or, to paraphrase Elizabeth Benedict from "The Joy of Writing Sex," Art is about the people, pornography is about the plumbing."

For what it's worth.
-Lokmer

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 14 2004, 05:05 AM
Well, Farasha, is there a better way to find out than some quick internet research? Get yourself some porn, and judge for yourself. Hell, you don't hafta take our words for it.

Posted by: Vixentrox Jan 14 2004, 06:50 AM
As stated by others, as long as it isn't kids or forced/coereced...why not? Just another avenue of making an incom using an individuals "talents". While I personally don't get much from watching porno movies...I do like the occiaional erotic fiction bit.

Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 14 2004, 10:52 AM
mmmmmm......porn .

All normal red blooded american males like porn, xian or not. The ones that say they don't either need viagra or they are having to pray to jesus with all their might to help them take away their dirty thoughts.

Posted by: 603269726 Jan 14 2004, 12:06 PM
porn. the breakfast of champions

Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 14 2004, 02:24 PM
QUOTE (TheBackwoodsCreep @ Jan 14 2004, 02:06 PM)
porn. the breakfast of champions

I drink to that

Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 14 2004, 02:48 PM
I just read in yesterday's paper an article telling people to turn off the porn. Why? Supposedly according to the article, porn causes a boy's image of women to become over expectant, and causes girls to think that is all boys really care about in any given relationship.

Frankly, having grown up with as much porn as I could get my hands on , I do feel this may be at least partially true. While I try to maintain a realistic ideal, I do occasionaly find my self wishing my Gf looked like that. Nothing abnormal I expect.

Posted by: Dhampir Jan 14 2004, 03:11 PM
by that logic, tv should just shut down altogether. who doesn't wish their woman had more? Nothing wrong with that.

Posted by: michelle Jan 14 2004, 03:39 PM
more what? Tits & ass? I know Damphir is too smart for that.
Isnt her brain & personality that attracted you? And no Im not fat & ugly in case anyones wondering. I think there should be some kind of psyche test done on women AND men before they are involved in porn but thats not going to happen. Im thinking that some of the actors are 25 yr olds with the emotions of a 12 year old though its probably not true in all cases. Just the thought of that is enough to turn a person off, sorry. I think some of them have been abused.
The porn is only going to add to their degradtion. I personaly dont view it on a real REGULAR basis but I guess you have to find the ones that are tastefully done. But wouldnt it be nice if there was some kind of psych background check on the person? And 18 seems young, I think it should be moved up to 21.

Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 14 2004, 04:34 PM
18 is the age of consent. If they're old enough to vote and be sent off in the military, they can buy porn. But I definitely agree with everything Lokmer said. Took the words right out of my mouth.

Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 14 2004, 05:23 PM
I personally think that women get too worked up over their boyfriend or husband wanting to watch porn. Like my sister one day told me she suspects my brother-in-law is surfing for porn on the net when she goes out. I was like, "so what"?? Its not like the guy is out cheating on her. Porn is just like watching sports, whats the big deal?

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 14 2004, 05:35 PM
QUOTE
more what? Tits & ass?... Isnt her brain & personality that attracted you?

In theory, it should be. Of course, finding single women in Indiana, let alone good looking/intelligent ladies is re-god-damn-diculous.

Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 14 2004, 05:52 PM
QUOTE (michelle @ Jan 14 2004, 05:39 PM)
And 18 seems young, I think it should be moved up to 21.

No way! 18 is like prime time!

Posted by: michelle Jan 14 2004, 06:44 PM
Jezebelfry,
I hear what youre saying but I think 18 is too young for the military too. But you have to be 21 to buy beer? Well in this state you do. I was only thinking of the women & men who have been sexually abused not anybody else. Often, the sexually abused have been taught at a young age that it is their purpose to be a sexual pleaser, like its their duty to please their partner, know what Im saying? Never mind Im messing up the thread. I should start another thread on those in Porn who have been sexually abused as children. Im thinking there are a lot of them in it. Same with prostitution.
Pitch had a lot of good stuff to say on that issue over in TexasFreethinkers thread on Legalizing prostitution.

Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 14 2004, 07:59 PM
QUOTE (PseudoGod @ Jan 14 2004, 10:52 AM)
All normal red blooded american males like porn, xian or not. The ones that say they don't either need viagra or they are having to pray to jesus with all their might to help them take away their dirty thoughts.

And red-blooded Italian popes. I took a tour through the Vatican museum a couple of years ago and was impressed by how much the nude body is glorified within those sacred walls. All over Europe for that matter, they don't seem to have the hangups we Americans do. Ashcroft and company would go berzerk in the Vatican museum.

Flashback to a previous realated thread:
http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=959&st=30&#entry16352

Our tour guide was telling a story about a previous tour group of hers that included Chelsea, although the guide didn't recognize her until after it was too late. She was explaining how one of the popes had all the fig leaves installed during an era of prudishness. She was calling them Monica leaves, but Chelsea wasn't amused. She also said that somewhere in the basement of the Vatican is a storeroom with appendages removed before the fig leaves were attached. In some future more liberated era the appendages will be reunited with their body. Maybe at the same moment the rest of the dead are resurrected and their bodies magically come together again!

Of course there's a sliding divider between art and porn, determined by one's cultural conditioning. Stoneagers, pygmies and kids growing up in nudist camps need to see a lot more skin to get the same reaction that an exposed ankle might have given a Victorian. Porn should only be considered wrong where it exploits and abuses.

I don't buy the opinion that admiring the female body and figuring out how it's put together causes men to treat women as debased objects and become abusive in some way. Or women doing the same for men. Like most other facets of nature, the more you know and the better you understand things, the more you are able to appreciate them.

And when you're studying for the ob/gyn exam, at what point do you get over the sinful fealing that you're looking at something that you shouldn't?

Posted by: Farasha Jan 14 2004, 08:17 PM
QUOTE
re-god-damn-diculous

I find your insertion of swear words into other words rather humorous, Rodan.

Posted by: Cerise Jan 14 2004, 08:35 PM
I would love to say that as long as porn isn't exploitative or abusive, it's fine with me. I would love to say that, since it is true, but really, where does that put me? If I say that, does it actually give a guidline on how we should regulate the pornography business? Should we have a judge view every bit of porn and say which kind is exploitative and which is not? Is a picture of a naked woman in chains at the feet of a man exploitative because it shows women as subserviant dolls for a man's pleasure or is it just an example of healthy role-playing games? Is a nineteen year old stripping in a nightclub to pay her way through university an example of an independant woman who's secure in her sexuality or is it just another way to exploit the human body by placing monetary value on someone's breasts and ass?

A million people will give you a million different answers. I am, as yet, undecided about porn.

Posted by: Outsider Jan 14 2004, 08:47 PM
Porn

Well, I forget who pointed this out, but it was a good point. It went something like this:

"Did you ever notice when you go see a movie you can watch people being blown to bits, tortured, beaten, and explosions very two seconds. A movie like this usually gets a R rating. However, if there is a movie that shows to adults having sex it risks getting a NC-17 or X rating. "

Sorry, I cannot remember the source, but it is a good point. why can Americans watch CNN and see victims of war and not be outraged, but get in a fit over people having sex?

Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 14 2004, 08:54 PM
QUOTE (Cerise @ Jan 14 2004, 08:35 PM)
A million people will give you a million different answers. I am, as yet, undecided about porn.

I guess you could take an ultra-conservative approach and shield yourself from everything you find offensive. Take a stand against the sinful secular humanism that society is experimenting with. Try to find unchanging precepts in the scriptures to ward off the evil all around you. Reinterpret everything in light of your faith. See all nudity as threatening and evil pornography. Read the Song of Solomon as some far-fetched allegory so it won't seem so enticing. Whatever it takes to remain secure and guarantee your eternal safety.

I agree it's a sticky wicket, but all we have is our own good sense to guide us.

Posted by: lostandconfused Jan 14 2004, 09:29 PM
porn is the only way some of us can satisfy our needs, since we don't have a hope with any real life hot chicks.

Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 14 2004, 10:44 PM
The real problem with porn is this societies reaction. Porn is seen as something dirty and disgusting, to be kept hidden. Thanks again christians! This is what causes the breach in the marriage, then the woman goes and see's that the guy is checking out porn, making her think that whatever she does is not really adequate to satisfy him.

Just be open with your partner and there won't be as much of a problem.

Posted by: Tocis Jan 15 2004, 12:15 AM
QUOTE (Outsider @ Jan 14 2004, 08:47 PM)
"Did you ever notice when you go see a movie you can watch people being blown to bits, tortured, beaten, and explosions very two seconds. A movie like this usually gets a R rating. However, if there is a movie that shows to adults having sex it risks getting a NC-17 or X rating. "

Yeah, that's one of the topics we Germans like to make fun of.

"Gee, we really need to protect our children from all that filthy natural... sexuality! (Shudder, the word alone!) Let's just give them some good American violence instead so they grow up as decent citizens!"

And yes, it is not clear whether the "Shudder" refers to sexuality or natural...

Combine such an education with firearms available at every corner, and... well, we know the statistics.

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 15 2004, 03:03 AM
QUOTE
If I say that, does it actually give a guidline on how we should regulate the pornography business?

Regulate yourself. Don't support what you don't like. As long as no one is being forced to play in those roles.

QUOTE
"Did you ever notice when you go see a movie you can watch people being blown to bits, tortured, beaten, and explosions very two seconds. A movie like this usually gets a R rating. However, if there is a movie that shows to adults having sex it risks getting a NC-17 or X rating. "

I once mentioned that I can watch a scene with my parents that has Ahnold kill the bad guys and there is no problem with it. (Isn't that great, he killed the bad guys, american is safe!) Someone enjoying their time with their spouse though and everyone in the room gets nervous and it has to be turned off.

QUOTE
Just be open with your partner and there won't be as much of a problem.

Yes. Partners need to decide on their own what is allowable and what is not. Is it ok to talk to the hot neighbor, etc.

Posted by: Cerise Jan 15 2004, 04:57 AM
QUOTE
Regulate yourself. Don't support what you don't like. As long as no one is being forced to play in those roles.

Can you really tell, from looking at porn, which kind is forced sex and which is not forced sex? (unless you are looking at kiddie porn which is always forced sex) I read the memoirs of a porn star who had starred in a pretty successful porn flick against her will but whenever she tried to tell anyone they pointed to her on screen and said, "look at your face! the smile! we know you're enjoying it" meanwhile disregarding the fact that she had to smile or risk being killed by her manager.

Can you tell from looking at porn whether the person in the picture is happy and willing to be there? Of course they are all smiling, happy, seductive faces because unless you're into rape, no one wants to see fear, disgust, or aversion on their porn model's face. That won't pay the bills.

I do boycott Playboy, simply because they cannot seem to print an issue without a reference to sex with a child and incest jokes. Yes, its in "cartoon" form so no actual children are abused, but I don't find child abuse, illustrated or real, funny.

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 15 2004, 10:44 AM
QUOTE
I find your insertion of swear words into other words rather humorous, Rodan.

Thank you. Try it a bit yourself- it can be fun to see what you can stick into what else.

QUOTE
porn is the only way some of us can satisfy our needs, since we don't have a hope with any real life hot chicks.

Or single women seem nigh-impossible to find.

Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 15 2004, 01:56 PM
QUOTE (lostandconfused @ Jan 14 2004, 11:29 PM)
porn is the only way some of us can satisfy our needs, since we don't have a hope with any real life hot chicks.

so true

Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 15 2004, 01:57 PM
QUOTE (lostandconfused @ Jan 14 2004, 11:29 PM)
porn is the only way some of us can satisfy our needs, since we don't have a hope with any real life hot chicks.

so true

Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 15 2004, 01:57 PM
Now how the hell did that happen?

Posted by: michelle Jan 15 2004, 04:56 PM
I think its very immature that porn could wreck a marriage.
Sometimes your in the mood, sometimes your not.
When your not you can tell your boyfreind to go watch a porn video. Then he says: I dont want no stupid movie, I want you.
sorry, I couldnt resist

Posted by: BillJ Jan 15 2004, 05:24 PM
Porn is so evil, those people on film yelling "o yeah" are in great pain, they are suffering an agonizing orgasm, its filthy isn't it. The men watching the porn are being infected with demons that erect their penis' and the women are being infected with demons that wet their crotches. After watching porn you have to urge to murder, rape, and hallucinate pictures of titties and ass jiggling in your face. I once seen a girl orgasm with the most intensity after I looked in her eyes I was paralyzed, she came over and gave me a blowjob and I was screaming for God, "O God I can't take it anymore this is the worse thing that has ever happened to me", but I wanted it more, so I must be evil right, does this mean that I am a masochist?

Let me tell everyone something, if porn and sexual lust are evil, than every fucking human is guilty, end of story!!!

Human brain

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 16 2004, 12:04 AM
Alright, damnit, it has become very late, and I am very drunk, but anyways, I am going to give out some of my mind over all the stupid porn that has been preventing me from finding a biography-type thing on Janis Joplin, since stankersss would like her added to the saints list. But I can't find anyhting on it, past ALL THE FUCKING PORN!!!!!@Holy mother of tobasco sauce, do we really need THIS much porn on line, folks? Bah!ASS_FUCK_COCK_SMOKINGBRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 16 2004, 02:57 AM
Seems you are using the wrong search term. I put "Janis Joplin" biography in google and not one porn link.

P.S. Where is all this beer coming from? I haven't seen any of it? Are we at the same party?

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 16 2004, 09:26 PM
Obviously not. I've was drinking Scotch. Beer is for those with much larger stomachs and lower alcohol tolerances. How you didn't get porn, I'll never know...

Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 16 2004, 11:13 PM
QUOTE (BillJ @ Jan 15 2004, 08:24 PM)
Let me tell everyone something, if porn and sexual lust are evil, than every fucking human is guilty, end of story!!!

Isn't that what christianity wants?

Posted by: Emperor Norton II Jan 17 2004, 01:40 AM
Why, yes. Yes it is.

That picture of the brain is pretty neat.

Posted by: Farasha Jan 17 2004, 02:34 AM
QUOTE
Holy mother of tobasco sauce

What is it with you and sauces?

Posted by: moorezw Jan 17 2004, 07:16 AM
Sex is a natural human activity, like eating. Watching porn is like watching a cooking show- you get horny from the former, hungry from the latter.

Posted by: Cerise Jan 17 2004, 11:37 AM
Whenever I imply that porn might not be the best thing since sliced bread, people tend to think I'm either, a) a prude,

a fundamentalist, c) a raging man-hating nazi-feminist

I am not a prude. I find nothing wrong with sex as long as both parties are willing. Just because I wouldn't do a certain thing myself, doesn't mean I want to restrict others from doing it.

Neither am I a fundamentalist. Or, at least, not anymore. Non of my religious ideals says anything against consensual sex.

I am a feminist, though I don't hate men or think they are all pigs or consider all sex rape or any other such nonsense.

My reasons from hesitating about porn are not because I want to try and take free-speech away from anybody, not because I find sex disgusting or unnatural or sinful, but because the industry is so rife with exploitation and abuse that it's hard to separate the good from the bad.

I don't think the answer is to get rid of porn altogether, but neither do I think that dismissing exploitation in pornography in the name of "free speech" is going to help either. And if we just put down those who look at porn and say "something isn't right, something isn't working as well as it could be here" as fundamentalist feminist prudes who just want to wreck everyone's idea of a good time, we're going to end up helping people be exploited by looking the other way.

That's what I think anyway.

Cerise, very well put! Very well indeed! I agree with you. I, too, consider myself a feminist. That's bound to raise eyebrows but I do believe in the full humanity of every woman and her right to enjoy every right and pleasure that any man enjoys. I believe in the full dignity of any woman and her right to make her life and live it in any way she chooses for better or for worse. I believe in equal opportunity for every human being regardless of their differences be it gender, race, religion, sexual orientation. The heart and head are all that matters!

Thank you for expressing what I couldn't put better myself!

Matthew

Posted by: Outsider Jan 18 2004, 11:17 PM
QUOTE (Tocis @ Jan 15 2004, 03:15 AM)
"Gee, we really need to protect our children from all that filthy natural... sexuality! (Shudder, the word alone!) Let's just give them some good American violence instead so they grow up as decent citizens!"

It is ironic, isn't? Thanks for the laugh!

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 19 2004, 12:52 AM
QUOTE
because the industry is so rife with exploitation and abuse that it's hard to separate the good from the bad.

Cerise, sometimes it is better to not know about things, but my nature doesn't allow it so I am going to ask. Can you give us some examples of common exploitation in porn, and maybe any personal ideas you have on practical ways to solve these issues. Do you see a much greater degree of exploitation in this industry, beyond, say, factory work? If so, why do you believe this is the case? Is it possible to have an industry, that films people without clothing, and having sex, that does not have widespread exploitation?
thanks.

I wouldn't say I am exactly biased on this issue, though I do have some experience. I am currently developing an adult themed website.

Posted by: moorezw Jan 19 2004, 06:48 AM
QUOTE (Matthew @ Jan 18 2004, 10:40 PM)
I, too, consider myself a feminist... I believe in equal opportunity for every human being regardless of their differences be it gender, race, religion, sexual orientation.

Matthew-

I also believe in equal oppurtunity, but I don't call myself a 'feminist'. I prefer to characterize myself as an 'egalitarian'.

I've read a lot of feminist literature and, though I don't agree with it, I understand their rationale for the term. However, I don't think it behooves men of our ideals to adopt that kind of label for ourselves. If I can express my beliefs in gender-neutral terms, I think that's an even stronger step towards true gender equality.

Posted by: Cerise Jan 19 2004, 02:59 PM
Common exploitation in porn? Well I went to search for this article in google:

http://www.dianarussell.com/porntoc.html

And while I eventually got to it, I had to pass by many links to "THAILAND RAPE VIDEOS" "DRUGGED SLEEP RAPE PICS" "FREE TEEN RAPE" "BRUTAL PORN RAPE SITE" etc.

Of course, there was no way of telling whether these sites contained consensual acts that were depicted as non-consensual or actual non-consensual acts, although some links boasted "real live rape, cunt bleeds" and so on. And those that boasted any sexual activity with minors were definitely non-consensual.

And well-known magazines such as Hustler and Playboy often use illustrations that promote sex with children, incest, sexual violence, rape. All in good fun, of course.

But in general, I'm concerned about how portrayal of relationships in common pornography affects our expectations or thoughts about actual relationships. I'm concerned about people seeing each other only in terms of their sexual value. I'm concerned with the fact that society seems to thrive on pictures of sexual violence, on pictures of pre-teens in the nude, on pictures of rape, on pictures of bestiality. Why is there such a large market for this stuff?

I remember my first brush with pornography, I remember watching these women and thinking "so that's what men want, so that's what I have to do in order to gain attention." It was incredibly depressing, seeing the standards I thought I had to measure up to.

Of course, I would like to see a bigger outcry against non-consensual porn and and crack down on child pornography. I'd also like more education in schools about sexuality, so kids won't feel like they need porn to teach them how to act in a relationship. I'd like society to stop perpetuating sexual myths. I'd like ads to stop marketing sex to pre-teen girls. More openness about sexuality is supposed to reduce the need for porn, not increase it.

Sexual exploitation of the body, somehow it stays with you longer then other kinds of exploitation. And it can effect every aspect of your life, long after you've escaped from the abuse. When someone reduces you to a genital opening, no longer a person, just a means of sexual gratification, that stays with you.

Is there a way to have a sex industry without exploitation? Probably not. But it could be possible to have a sex industry without the same overwhelming amount of exploitation there is right now.

Posted by: Tocis Jan 19 2004, 04:08 PM
QUOTE (Cerise @ Jan 19 2004, 02:59 PM)
Why is there such a large market for this stuff?

I guess at least part of the reason is the "flair of the forbidden". When it was considered pornography to depict a woman that was just a little less dressed when normal, sexual fantasies revolved around seeing more. When pictures of naked women were legal, people dreamt of seeing them spread wide. Then came actual sex (well, close-ups of the mechanics of sex, actually)... more unusual kinds of sex... and finally, well, you have seen the links.

I fear the demand for such stuff will always be there. It's part of human nature, so it seems to me. A very dark part of human nature.

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 19 2004, 06:45 PM
QUOTE
And while I eventually got to it, I had to pass by many links to "THAILAND RAPE VIDEOS" "DRUGGED SLEEP RAPE PICS" "FREE TEEN RAPE" "BRUTAL PORN RAPE SITE" etc.

Why do these keywords sell? I'm not sure. Maybe Tocis is on the right tract when he speaks of the "flair of the forbidden". I could blame this on a society that makes sex naughty, and tells children that it is hidden from them until they are adult. This always makes people curious. To quote the simpsons "What is your fascination with my forbidden closet of mysteries?" Could it be that people want to find the most illegal of acts and watch it, merely because it is so labeled? I don't know.

QUOTE
Of course, there was no way of telling whether these sites contained consensual acts that were depicted as non-consensual or actual non-consensual acts, although some links boasted "real live rape, cunt bleeds" and so on. And those that boasted any sexual activity with minors were definitely non-consensual.

In america (and most counties), these are all felonies. It would be just as legal to set up a real murder of someone and record it. So, if they are in american it is all acting. If it is not, you need to report it immediately. I know the next question, how do you know if it is real? That is more difficult, but I can tell you one thing. A major company is not going to rap anyone and film it. This would be stupid when they have the money to hire actors. In fact, most big porn companies would not even film this kind of thing at all.

The server I am using will deleted your account with no warning if you even use the words rape, bestiality, whore, or anything illegal.

QUOTE
And well-known magazines such as Hustler and Playboy often use illustrations that promote sex with children, incest, sexual violence, rape. All in good fun, of course.

I've never read these magazines so I can't comment. (I grew up with BBS, and the internet) Again I can say these are all felonies (except incest which I don't know the law on that) and since these are american companies they will not actually portray these things. Talking about them is another issue though. I personally would hope they would not condone such issues. I don't see why porn needs to have any of this kind of thing.

QUOTE
But in general, I'm concerned about how portrayal of relationships in common pornography affects our expectations or thoughts about actual relationships.

I wish all porn did reflect healthy sexual relationships.

QUOTE
sexual violence, on pictures of pre-teens in the nude, on pictures of rape, on pictures of bestiality. Why is there such a large market for this stuff?

Could it be some men are stuck mentally as teenagers? Could it be that men see teenagers as more fertile and sexual? Could it be that men want to feel dominant and still have throwbacks from evolution when we copulated with anything we saw? I don't know, but I think these three things are part of it.

QUOTE
I remember my first brush with pornography, I remember watching these women and thinking "so that's what men want, so that's what I have to do in order to gain attention." It was incredibly depressing, seeing the standards I thought I had to measure up to.

Agreed. The media picks the most outrages, extreme examples of people to put in magazines, movies, tv. If people are not education and believe this is a picture of normal humans, they feel substandard. I think it is the same with porn. As you suggested, real teaching in school so that when people come across these kind of things, they know what it is.

QUOTE
Of course, I would like to see a bigger outcry against non-consensual porn and and crack down on child pornography.

Maybe a realization that porn doesn't need to be this kind of thing? I think we have been seeing some of this. All are felonies. I was just on a jury that convicted a man to many years in prison for child molestation. If he is not killed in prison, he will be very old when he gets out. We haven't caught it all, but we have crime issues is nearly all sectors, not just porn.

QUOTE
I'd also like more education in schools about sexuality, so kids won't feel like they need porn to teach them how to act in a relationship. I'd like society to stop perpetuating sexual myths. I'd like ads to stop marketing sex to pre-teen girls.

Completely agree.

QUOTE
More openness about sexuality is supposed to reduce the need for porn, not increase it.

Again, I don't feel porn is inherently bad. I agree that more openness might help reduce the illegal side of porn, but I know couples in healthy relationships that use porn in their sexual adventures.

QUOTE
Sexual exploitation of the body, somehow it stays with you longer then other kinds of exploitation.

rape is a crime against a person. Theft is a crime against possessions. That is part of the difference. I think the other part is that our society makes rape victims feel bad because they now think they are somehow unclean and should be embarrassed.

QUOTE
Is there a way to have a sex industry without exploitation? Probably not. But it could be possible to have a sex industry without the same overwhelming amount of exploitation there is right now.

I hope so. I don't think porn inherently causes bad things. Our outlook on it might though. I hope it can someday be thought of as art (people doing beautiful things that make all involved feel good), and have no more of an underside than any other international industry. Rape and porn do not need to be connected.

Posted by: Doug2 Jan 19 2004, 07:05 PM
As an addendum, let me say this. I have been viewing porn since I was around 12 years old (Off and on. Many times as a christian I would feel the need to be more "holy" and would abstain from such things). I'm 24 now. It has never caused me personally to rape anyone, and for all I know, kept me from doing so in my teenage years. (Though I have no proof, maybe it is just that I have a conscious) I don't think it has made me feel less about women. I think the reason I feel women are equal is due to my education, environment, and the era in which I live. I'm not sure porn has helped shape that opinion either way.

I'm currently doing some processing in my head on the rape issue and the difference between real rape videos, obviously fake rape videos, and role playing videos involving scenarios such as a robber raping the owner of the house.

Posted by: Libertus Jan 19 2004, 07:57 PM
I just wanted to post that I am totally confused about the whole porn issue. I must echo Doug in that I have viewed it off and on since my pre-teen years, and I don't really see a major issue in my personal development. I think that their are much healthier avenues for sexual expression, but there are also much worse avenues.

The problem I have is just how psychologically addictive that it can be. I mean, guys can spend countless hours per day stuck to a computer screen looking at the stuff. There have to be better things to fill the time. Is this related to the sexual reclusiveness (my new word) in our society? Maybe. Would a more open and sexually free society eliminate some of the need for the stuff? Maybe. I just don't know.

I believe that there is a tremendous amount of exploitation going on in that industry, but what can be done? Obviously it's not going away, and with the net, it's useless to really try to regulate it. I don't know what could or should be done about helping the victims of exploitation while allowing the freedom of expression for the others. This is even more difficult to deal with than the prostitution issue from our other thread.

Xpen

Posted by: Matthew Jan 19 2004, 10:16 PM
QUOTE
I also believe in equal oppurtunity, but I don't call myself a 'feminist'. I prefer to characterize myself as an 'egalitarian'.

Excellent point! I had more than one motive for adopting that label. It's not merely because I believe in equal opportunity, rights, and benefits for women but also I thought of doing so because I love to challenge convention. I thought that by referring myself as a "feminist", I will rock boats and defy convention not to mention challenge people's assumptions and stereotypes. Do you think this is a good idea? Or will it cause more trouble than it's worth? If it will do more damage than good, then I will very much follow your example in calling myself an "egalitarian".

Matthew

Posted by: moorezw Jan 20 2004, 06:12 AM
Matthew-

Well, I used this litmus test when I was deciding how to characterize myself:

Could I call myself a "masculinist", and still be perceived as desiring gender equality?

But if you want to rock boats, then by all means rock them.

Posted by: lostandconfused Jan 20 2004, 07:48 AM
honestly, as a guy i'd prefer if things would go back to the old ways a little bit, where women were treated a bit more like property.

simply because i like the idea of owning a harem of women like the kings of ancient cultures.

now if i was female i'd feel differently.

but i'm not so i don't.

actually in a perfect world there would be me as absolute ruler and everyone else as my slaves who exist only to serve me.

but that ain't likely to happen. and neither is going back to the old days.

i just hope they invent holodecks soon so i can get out of the stupid ass real world and go live in a fantasy world of my own creation where everything happens the way I want it to. then i can actually get laid, i'd have all the hot girls I'd ever need at the touch of a button and can have massive orgies with them.

Posted by: Lokmer Jan 20 2004, 08:07 AM
QUOTE
By Cerise:
And while I eventually got to it, I had to pass by many links to "THAILAND RAPE VIDEOS" "DRUGGED SLEEP RAPE PICS" "FREE TEEN RAPE" "BRUTAL PORN RAPE SITE" etc.

I must echo my esteemed colleagues above (I've always wanted to say "esteemed colleagues" with a straight fave) - the appeal is its very illegality. Most particularly, our culture has very conflicted attitudes about sex and sex-roles - man are at once told they should be dominant and docile, and there is a similar lack of honesty in how women are treated ("be competent and assertive, but submit and be passive"). At that to the general level of sexual repression in this culture as opposed to say, that of Europe (where the yearly money spent on porn is FAR smaller per capita), mix it with a fairly healthy desire for variety in sexual fantasy and experience (which all people have to one extent or another) and the American sexual condition becomes obvious.

QUOTE

Of course, there was no way of telling whether these sites contained consensual acts that were depicted as non-consensual or actual non-consensual acts, although some links boasted "real live rape, cunt bleeds" and so on. And those that boasted any sexual activity with minors were definitely non-consensual.

As one who does videography/filmmaking for a living, you can be VERY confident that almost everything you see - even bleeding orifices - is faked. There is very little a creative person with a profit motive can't accomplish with corn syrup, food coloring, and latex.

The FBI spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year to investigate sites like those you pointed towards, and nets only a handful of arrests and a smaller number of convictions. The evil, degrading, exploitative porn that is advertised is almost always made in home-built studios, with a cheap video camera, with underpaid actors working long days and bored to tears. Porn work is the most boring work in the world. There are generally two sorts of people that get exploited in its production: 1) The audience (both by being sold fake fantasies as a substitute for real sex and by sometimes being sexually desensitized by overexposure), and 2) In some cases, the actors - but mostly because of poor wages. Indirect exploitation (in which the actor/actress gets involved in the industry for reasons of unbalanced psychology - i.e. following a life-path begun by molest, etc.) is far more common in the hardcore industry, but the responsibility for this exploitation falls as much on the shoulders of the people being exploited and the society that brought them about as on the porn producers themselves.

QUOTE

And well-known magazines such as Hustler and Playboy often use illustrations that promote sex with children, incest, sexual violence, rape. All in good fun, of course.

Shortly after I took up photography, my wife arranged for me to be given a collection of Playboys going back to the first issues in the '50s. I have yet to find anything that glorifies or promote the things you are describing, short of the occasional joke poking fun at the subject. Hustler and Penthouse? That's another story entirely. Those on a crusade should be careful to deliniate their targets. Playboy has spent millions of dollars over the years on feminist causes, sexual abuse awareness and prosecution, and various other noble causes affecting the sexual, religious, and chemical rights of both men and women through the Playboy foundation.

QUOTE

But in general, I'm concerned about how portrayal of relationships in common pornography affects our expectations or thoughts about actual relationships.

Here you and I are in complete agreement.

QUOTE

I'm concerned about people seeing each other only in terms of their sexual value. I'm concerned with the fact that society seems to thrive on pictures of sexual violence, on pictures of pre-teens in the nude, on pictures of rape, on pictures of bestiality. Why is there such a large market for this stuff?

A society's sexual underground is a direct reflection of that society's "proper" attitudes toward sex. The more repressed a culture is in polite society, the more degraded and degrading its sexual underground becomes. A lot of this can be laid squarely at the feet of Christianity and radical feminism (as much as I applaud the goals of the mainstream feminist movement). Victorianism, which Christianity goaded on and incorporated, desexualized children, which gave us the world's first large market for child porn and a thriving (though not original) market in child prostitution. Children are sexual beings like the rest of us, if you deny that and label anyone who does not as a pervert, an immoral, an evil, a debauch, a lecher, etc. you create the kink. Furthermore, we define as "children" creatures who are sexually mature and extremely fertile - and we insist that anyone over an arbitrary age not acknowledge their sexuality.

Sexual violence, rape, etc. come out to a great extent from the social pressures on men - demanding that they be strong, dominant, etc. while disapproving of them for being competitive, agressive, and the like. Men are designed to play rough. Repress that, you get violence rather than simply rough play. Repress that along with telling men that they are solely responsible for sex (it is THEIR job to divine what a woman wants, always having to be sensitive, never communicating their own needs/desires, being "servant leaders", etc.) and you get sexual violence. Sexual violence always comes from sexual insecurity, something our society fosters and encourages in abundance.

QUOTE

I remember my first brush with pornography, I remember watching these women and thinking "so that's what men want, so that's what I have to do in order to gain attention." It was incredibly depressing, seeing the standards I thought I had to measure up to.

And this is the flip side of what I was just talking about. Women are sent awful and conflicting messages about sex as well. The hell of it is, our society on one hand denies that anyone has a sexuality, and on the other hand treats everyone as sex objects. It is, I think, analogous to what happens when a tea-toataller shows up at a frat party - there is a subconscious impulse to get him/her drunk just because.
In this case, sexuality is absolutely basic to what it means to be human. By encouraging denial about this, society creates a reactive need to oversexualize everything - rather than recognizing sex in the people we deal with, we mentally try to invent the sexuality we know should be there. And some people can't stop there.

A woman should never have to deal with that sort of inadequacy on seeing porn. But our society removes all sex from reality and makes it all part of fantasy, and we wonder why fantasies make people feel inadequate...it's a sick cycle.

QUOTE

More openness about sexuality is supposed to reduce the need for porn, not increase it.

It actually does. But when you lift the lid on a pressure cooker you're going to have some boil-over. In spite of the commercialization of sex, in the 1990s we were looking at lower child molestation rates, lower rates of precocious sexuality, lower teen pregnancy rates, and lower abortion rates than there were in the 1950s. Those rates have gone up again since the passage of the CDA in 1996, but although they are embarassingly high compared to the rest of the western world and Japan, they are still quite low compared to America historically. Check out the book "Harmful to Minors" for a complete digest of all this info.

QUOTE

Of course, I would like to see a bigger outcry against non-consensual porn and and crack down on child pornography.

The FBI is now the biggest distributor of child porn in the world - the vast majority of it produced before 1978 that they have in their archives - for the purposes of sting operations. There have been (if memory serves) exactly 10 arrests for child porn in the last 20 years (from the millions of dollars spent by the child porn task force every year), 9 resulted in charges being dropped because the producers could prove that their actors/models were over 18 at the time. The 10th was in Texas in 1998 and was selling pictures they didn't check on, which they bought from Russia. (ref: Harmful to Minors)

QUOTE

I'd also like more education in schools about sexuality, so kids won't feel like they need porn to teach them how to act in a relationship. I'd like society to stop perpetuating sexual myths. I'd like ads to stop marketing sex to pre-teen girls.

Agreed, although the last, at least, will never happen in a world where pre-teen girls are post-menarche. What would be nice would be to see parents teaching their daughters how to be mature sexual people so that they would have better discernment in such matters. But pre-teen girls - particularly between 10 and 12 - are sexually aware whether anyone's prepared to deal with it or not.

QUOTE

Sexual exploitation of the body, somehow it stays with you longer then other kinds of exploitation.

This is partly because the biochemistry involved in sex makes a powerful imprint on the brain, and partly because society so trumps sex up that anything sexual - good or bad - becomes a major life-event when it should be just part of life. Having worked with many abused children over the years, it is invariably those from evangelical and catholic homes who have the hardest time recovering from a molest. They carry far more shame and guilt for it, they have been taught to idolize sex as something sacred, and have been conditioned to consider their sexuality as a mystic gift. So when they are molested, even when their parents are honest, decent people, they suffer as much (if not more) abuse from the way their family and churches deal with it as they did from the molest itself. Children of immigrants (particularly metropolitan chinese) get past it much faster. That's not to say it isn't terrible or devastating or grotesque, because it is, but the cultural conditioning makes it so much worse than it would otherwise be - it bumps a major trauma into the category of a life-destroying catastrophe. And (morally speaking) that is a crime as well.

QUOTE

Is there a way to have a sex industry without exploitation? Probably not. But it could be possible to have a sex industry without the same overwhelming amount of exploitation there is right now.

Certainly it could be without direct exploitation. Possibly without indirect exploitation. The Geisha, Hetareai, and Venisian Courtesan models are fairly healthy ones. If we had a society where people were taught to respect the merchant, the trade would be more honest.

As for your article, it's a very one-sided look at a complex problem, and I encourage you to dig up some work that comes from sex-positive feminists. Diana Russel is not known for being objective - her adgenda dictates her conclusions far more than the data do. Much of her platform (such as pornography producing rapists) is long-since discredited and statistically untenable. I agree with many of her moral attitudes about the way things ought to be, but her research is about as honest as James Dobson's.

-Lokmer

Posted by: Cerise Jan 20 2004, 04:57 PM
QUOTE
The FBI spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year to investigate sites like those you pointed towards, and nets only a handful of arrests and a smaller number of convictions.

I don't know if that statistic makes me feel better...

QUOTE
Shortly after I took up photography, my wife arranged for me to be given a collection of Playboys going back to the first issues in the '50s. I have yet to find anything that glorifies or promote the things you are describing, short of the occasional joke poking fun at the subject.

Perhaps you are missing some essential copies. I've seen Playboys with illustrations of characters like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, raped by the Tinman, Scarecrow, and Lion. I've seen illustrations of obviously pre-pubescent girls lying in bed with a sexual caption overhead. Teenagers tied to beds with captions that condone incest. Oh, but maybe an "occasional joke" is okay. Because we all know that incest and child molestation is terribly funny. Those kids raped by priests? Pure gold comedy material. Dad fucks his daughter? Hilarious.

Well...not to me. But maybe I just have no sense of humour.

QUOTE
Furthermore, we define as "children" creatures who are sexually mature and extremely fertile - and we insist that anyone over an arbitrary age not acknowledge their sexuality.

What exactly do you mean by "acknowledge their sexuality"?

QUOTE
Men are designed to play rough.

Aren't you being a tad stereotypical here? I happen to know a lot of men who prefer not to "play rough". And quite a lot of women who do like to "play rough" as it were. Let's not get bogged down with gender roles.

QUOTE
But pre-teen girls - particularly between 10 and 12 - are sexually aware whether anyone's prepared to deal with it or not.

Some are all too prepared to "deal with it" I'm afraid.

Posted by: sexkitten Jan 20 2004, 11:02 PM
Oops - wrong login.

Posted by: sexkitten Jan 20 2004, 11:05 PM
damn it - did it again!

Posted by: Lokmer Jan 20 2004, 11:06 PM
QUOTE
Me:
The FBI spends hundreds of millions of dollars each year to investigate sites like those you pointed towards, and nets only a handful of arrests and a smaller number of convictions.
Cerise: I don't know if that statistic makes me feel better...

Me neither. It means either 1) There aren't that many out there that are actually doing illegal things, or 2) There are but they are so good at covering their tracks and falsifying their paperwork that they are uncatchable. In either case, the FBI is wasting a hell of a lot of money that could better go into things like kidnapping investigations.

QUOTE
Cerise:
Perhaps you are missing some essential copies. I've seen Playboys with illustrations of characters like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, raped by the Tinman, Scarecrow, and Lion. I've seen illustrations of obviously pre-pubescent girls lying in bed with a sexual caption overhead. Teenagers tied to beds with captions that condone incest. Oh, but maybe an "occasional joke" is okay. Because we all know that incest and child molestation is terribly funny. Those kids raped by priests? Pure gold comedy material. Dad fucks his daughter? Hilarious.

First off, I honestly think that you might be mistaken about which magazine you saw these things in. Secondly, joking about a topic is a great way to throw ridicule on it. For example (a funny joke about child molestation from Playboy):

"Three guys walk into a bar. A priest, a pedophile, a homosexual, and two other guys."

Humor by its nature operates on pain - if the subject isn't painful, humiliating, embarrasing, or incongruous to someone, it's not funny. I agree that there are some jokes that go way too far, but just because I find something in bad taste does not mean I assume that the joker is endorsing the behavior that is charicatured - in fact, it is often quite the opposite. Now, I would NEVER knowingly tell the above joke to a victime of clergy molestation, but to those who are pissed off about the Catholic cover-ups and staggeringly high rates of clergy molestation, I can get the milk to squirt out of their nose with it.

QUOTE
Me:
Furthermore, we define as "children" creatures who are sexually mature and extremely fertile - and we insist that anyone over an arbitrary age not acknowledge their sexuality.

Cerise: What exactly do you mean by "acknowledge their sexuality"?

A 12-14 year old girl who has not been abused tends to be very bubbly, vivacious, and (dare I say it?) sexy. As an adult man, if I do not admit to myself that I notice this and get comfortable with the obvious fact that I find the very way she is to be adorable, I will be uncomfortable and probably distant and rude toward her, in an effort to continue denying that (1) she's old enough to be sexually attractive and (2) I'm finding her that way. You've heard about women whose fathers turn cold at puberty? This is why. I had the same thing happen with my mother. Puberty hit, my wonderful mom became a cold and distant archetype who cringed when I gave her a hug.
This kind of thing is its own sort of low-key sexual abuse, it subliminally engenders shame into the budding young adult about their sexuality that can take years to get past.

Now, would I ever touch a young woman in an inappropriate manner? Of course not! But if I don't deal with the fact that she's a sexual creature then I won't be able to be around her without enormous stress on myself and on her. So, that's what I mean by "Acknowledging their sexuality."

QUOTE
Me:
Men are designed to play rough.

Cerise: Aren't you being a tad stereotypical here? I happen to know a lot of men who prefer not to "play rough". And quite a lot of women who do like to "play rough" as it were. Let's not get bogged down with gender roles.

Not doing the gender role thing - there's plenty of crossover with men who prefer to be silent and women who like to play rough (my favorite type of woman, actually). But acknowledging that, I must also admit that there is a very broad-based cultural attitude in this country embodied on the right in the Promise Keepers and similar movements, and on the left in some of the more radical feminist literature, that views any sort of realistic masculinity as a shameful thing in one sense or another, in much the same way that realistic femininity was once viewed (and sometimes still is) in a generally negative manner. I'm personally of the attitude that both masculinity and femininity are really fucking cool, and don't want anyone to be shamed for what they are.

QUOTE
Me:
But pre-teen girls - particularly between 10 and 12 - are sexually aware whether anyone's prepared to deal with it or not.

Cerise: Some are all too prepared to "deal with it" I'm afraid.

If that's the case, then it's definately the wrong people that are "dealing with it." But when we don't treat pre-teens and teens as sexually mature beings and train them to deal with that responsibly (i.e. when as a culture we perpetuate the fiction that they shouldn't be sexually active in any sense - or sexual in any sense) we create an environment in which molesters and pedophiles can thrive.

-Lokmer

Posted by: Cerise Jan 22 2004, 01:51 PM
QUOTE
In either case, the FBI is wasting a hell of a lot of money that could better go into things like kidnapping investigations.

Ah, but that's what officials do best, is it not? Waste money?

QUOTE
First off, I honestly think that you might be mistaken about which magazine you saw these things in.

I'm pretty sure it was Playboy. There weren't many issues of Hustler or Penthouse around, because those were considered more "hardcore" then Playboy's.

QUOTE
Now, I would NEVER knowingly tell the above joke to a victime of clergy molestation, but to those who are pissed off about the Catholic cover-ups and staggeringly high rates of clergy molestation, I can get the milk to squirt out of their nose with it.

Problem is, you never know who you're telling your jokes to. And hearing such things, even if they are not intended to condone such behavior, can be very invalidating. I guess you'd have to measure which is more important, to gain laughter at the possible expense of great pain, or vice versa.

QUOTE
Now, would I ever touch a young woman in an inappropriate manner? Of course not! But if I don't deal with the fact that she's a sexual creature then I won't be able to be around her without enormous stress on myself and on her. So, that's what I mean by "Acknowledging their sexuality."

So would you say that's more an issue of state of mind then of any action required by an adult when faced with the sexuality of a child?

QUOTE
I'm personally of the attitude that both masculinity and femininity are really fucking cool, and don't want anyone to be shamed fo