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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 14 2004, 09:49 AM |
| Posted by: moorezw Feb 10 2004, 11:30 AM In Matthew 18, Jesus is recorded as saying: QUOTE Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. In Romans 8, Paul says: QUOTE When we cry, "Abba! Father!" it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God Christians have interpreted these passages to mean that our relationship with God is to be one that parallels the relationship of a child to a parent. The argument is that since God is as far above human understanding as a parent is above its child's understanding, then we are to accept the will of God as unquestioningly as a child accepts the will of its parent. Why is this argument to attractive to Christianity? I suggest that although a child may be curious and questioning at times, it can nearly always be satisfied with the logic of parental exasperation: "Why? Because I said so." Despite the substantial efforts of apologists over the years, I daresay Christians would relish that approach. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church codifies this approach as a "Mystery": a religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation. In other words, the response is: "Why? Because God said so." (the logic of theological exasperation) However, I feel that this approach fails for one fundamental reason: children are stupid. By which I mean, by and large, it's pretty easy to fool a kid. They're very trusting by nature, simply because they haven't learned proper reasoning and critical thinking skills. Children believe in Santa Clause, they believe in the Easter Bunny, and they believe that Uncle Jack really can make coins appear out of thin air from behind their ear. Would any adult willingly revert to the mental state of a child? Of course not, and those that are that way through nature have to be monitored and taken care of. So why would anyone willingly abandon their (ostensibly) God-given reasoning and critical thinking skills to blindly accept that which they are told God has said? I was a child once, and I believed everything my parents told my like it was Gospel. But then I grew up, and I learned that the world is much bigger than my home, and there is much more truth than can be gleaned from my parents. Right or wrong, I relish my ability to form my own opinions, appraise those of others, and make my own decisions as I go through life. I wouldn't trade it for a second of childhood. Christians want to become like children; I wish they would grow up. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 10 2004, 11:50 AM I remember back when I was in high school and in youth group. One of the college student leaders was talking about suffering from your own stupidity (otherwise known as "natural consequences") as God "spanking us" for our sins. I thought that made God sound rather kinky. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 10 2004, 11:55 AM I do find it amusing, though, that Christians tend to see a child's relationship with her parents as being a metaphor for mankind's relationship with God, without pausing to consider that it just *might* have been the other way around. Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2004, 11:57 AM Throwing in here three brief comments: I had a fairly miserable childhood and I don’t want to revert to any of it in my thinking. Period. There is nothing at all I find appealing in some recent Xtian teaching about "Papa" God and us climbing into his lap for love or comfort or what-have-you. For some reason that turns me off completely and just doesn’t jive with my mental picture of God. I heard this from my mother a thousand times growing up: "Why? Because I said so." That was exasperating then and it’s more so now. How insulting! We were children once and thought like children. As adults, isn’t it time to put away childish things? Even my trust of an adult doesn’t carry attributes of immaturity but wisdom and reasoning, obvious mental calculation. Posted by: moorezw Feb 10 2004, 12:04 PM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 10 2004, 02:57 PM) As adults, isn’t it time to put away childish things? Reach- Paul certianly thinks so: QUOTE 1 Corinthians 13:11 - When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. Posted by: chefranden Feb 10 2004, 02:00 PM If we are children of god then we must grow up to be a god, or else we are not children of god. Xians would be more like god's dogs and Atheists more like god's cats. That would be more likely considering how it seems god treats us -- if he is real. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 10 2004, 02:11 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 10 2004, 02:00 PM) Xians would be more like god's dogs and Atheists more like god's cats. I could get behind that... Posted by: _Kevin Feb 10 2004, 03:04 PM QUOTE I was a child once, and I believed everything my parents told my like it was Gospel. But then I grew up, and I learned that the world is much bigger than my home, and there is much more truth than can be gleaned from my parents. Right or wrong, I relish my ability to form my own opinions, appraise those of others, and make my own decisions as I go through life. I wouldn't trade it for a second of childhood. Christians want to become like children; I wish they would grow up. Hi Moorezw: There is a difference between being childish and child-like. Don't you still do child-like things? Adults sometimes call it fun. (It's easier if you have kids). Jesus is saying we should have a trusting open attitude, with a sense of wonder. It appears we become somewhat jaded as we get older.(Old Fart, Old Fool, Old Misery etc.) I am 48, and I still haven't grown up, but maybe you've noticed! Suckypoo Face, can't catch meeee!!! Ahem. Sorry.... Posted by: moorezw Feb 10 2004, 05:48 PM Kevin- Both adults and children have fun. Both adults and children eat food. Both adults and children have beliefs. But, adults and children have different kinds of fun. Adults and children eat different kinds of food. And adults and children use very different approaches to arrive at their beliefs. Posted by: michelle Feb 10 2004, 05:58 PM It makes sense to me that a certain percentage of Christians would seek out God the father if their real life fathers were absent for whatever reasons. Physically or emotionally. I dont want to be mean to women but if Mom wasnt so friggin needy of Dad maybe Dad would have more energy for the kids. Whatever, some Christians do remain adolescents. They look like adults, talk like adults, but inside? Defineatly self-centered as most children are, self centered. Maybe thats why Christianity appeals to them so much, they sense their self-centeredness and want to be free of it, I dont know. I do think that alot of them are trying very desperately to grow up though. If Christianity helps them to do that then maybe they should go for it I dont know. I still havent decided if a person is better off with their faith or without it. And I guess its none of my damn business. I just know that life is better than death. If it gives them some life its their perogative. These thoughts only pertain to the Christians I know in life, not any on this site. Posted by: michelle Feb 10 2004, 06:02 PM Why am I analyzing people again? This is a really bad friggin habit of mine. Sorry people. Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2004, 06:40 PM You're alright, Michelle. No need to apologize. ********* The Father God Concept: My understanding was that one reason that Jesus came as the Son of God was to reveal God as a Father to us. Until Jesus was born, there was really no revelation of God as Father. So, that might help support the argument for an Old Testament God who chooses to reveal himself in stages to humanity. Progressive revelation. Please don't ask me why he chose this avenue. I don't know. Also, it appears that we are all caught outside of the family, as orphans no less, until we are adopted into the family of God. This all made sense to me a couple years ago but I'm struggling with it now. The Father-God concept/analogy is taking some twists and turns for me. A little over a year ago, my own dad was suddenly stricken with cancer and I hurried home to help care for him. As I administered his chemotherapy, cleaned up his vomit, took him for hydrotherapy several times a week, cared for him in a myriad of ways and sat with him for hours... I saw that I was the caregiver, the tender to life, the one loving him. It would not have served him well at all to have had the care of a childish daughter, nor a childlike one. Especially as this whole situation pulled on the emotions of my heart, what served me best was hanging on to reason and rational thinking. To that, I most certainly added prayer. When my father had maybe a week to live, tops, the chemotherapy which almost killed him, killed the cancer and he pulled through. That's good news but this experience sure has played havoc with my Father-God concept. Truth reigns. Posted by: Reach Feb 11 2004, 10:09 AM After giving this some more thought, I want to add that it’s not about being a child or thinking like a child for me. It’s not about obedience, ignorance or complete trust. It’s not about demanding perfection or constant attention from a Father-God figure. It’s not about having to lay aside critical thinking, or being forbidden to use reason and logic. Am I the only one out here who admits to wanting a Father-God? Am I the only one willing to see that in the deepest part of my person, something cries out for a Father-God’s love? Is this Father-God only a creation of my recognized and/or felt need? Is this just my own personal weakness or is anyone else like me? I’ve known a human father’s love and affection, yet something in me longs for more. Am I the only one? While this is uncomfortable disclosing this, I’m not afraid to express some vulnerability here and that’s about as transparent as I can be at the moment. Getting to the truth is never comfortable, is it? reach Posted by: Doug2 Feb 11 2004, 10:59 AM Having an all powerful being to protect us, and having it love us, and validate us is certainly a nice idea, but I am not feeling the love. Posted by: moorezw Feb 11 2004, 11:00 AM Reach- QUOTE Am I the only one willing to see that in the deepest part of my person, something cries out for a Father-God’s love? This is a completely human desire- wanting to know that your place in the Universe is secure and planned leads naturally to the assumption that there is a plan, and thus a planner. Posted by: sexkitten Feb 11 2004, 11:09 AM QUOTE (reach @ Feb 11 2004, 10:09 AM) Am I the only one willing to see that in the deepest part of my person, something cries out for a Father-God’s love? No, you're not alone. The desire for a father-god love was a big factor in bringing me to Christianity in the first place, epecially as my own father's love was inadequate. Posted by: Starflier Feb 11 2004, 01:58 PM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Feb 11 2004, 11:09 AM) QUOTE (reach @ Feb 11 2004, 10:09 AM) Am I the only one willing to see that in the deepest part of my person, something cries out for a Father-God’s love? No, you're not alone. The desire for a father-god love was a big factor in bringing me to Christianity in the first place, epecially as my own father's love was inadequate. I was born into a Catholic/Christian family so it wasn't any search on my part for a godfather/son, Inc.'s love at all for me. Even though I also had an estranged father who, even though we lived in the same house, completely ignored my existence. He wouldn't even talk to me. For only his sons were of any great importance to him And to my mother as well as only they could carry on the family name. Which lead to deep disappointment in my mom after my younger brother died at age 15 leaving only my infant brother, now gay & never married, alive. So it's no wonder even after I left the Catholic church at age 30, I still had this "loving" male deity thing ongoing. Thus my search for a religion with a male deity & female deity who loved one another. Seemed more balanced & logical to me. But after I explored all those, around age 50, I realized no deities at all existed & were only myths & cults. So where am I now? More Earth centered I think. I think, since it's greater than anything where we all exist, it's the only reasonable choice. I still seek the balance of the feminine/masculine right/left brain in myself as usual. SF Posted by: _Kevin Feb 11 2004, 04:00 PM i think that the "child" reference is meant to be child-like. when a child is learning to walk, their mind is free of negativity and expectation. never have i seen an infant learning to walk, fall down and then say "damn, i should do better/know better!!!" the mind should be clear of expectation, fear, doubt, failure, like that of a child. to assume that we are children to a higher power is the thinking of a closed mind. Posted by: chefranden Feb 11 2004, 05:44 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ Feb 11 2004, 06:00 PM) i think that the "child" reference is meant to be child-like. when a child is learning to walk, their mind is free of negativity and expectation. never have i seen an infant learning to walk, fall down and then say "damn, i should do better/know better!!!" the mind should be clear of expectation, fear, doubt, failure, like that of a child. to assume that we are children to a higher power is the thinking of a closed mind. What is it that makes this the ideal state? A person could hardly survive in this mode. Nor would he be much help to society. All these attributes of a child are due to her undeveloped mind, which she is rapidly trying to develope to become like you -- careful. I would rather that the surgeon digging around in my brain would be the care worn sort, rather than child like and care-less. Oh, and s/he damn well better know better! Posted by: michelle Feb 11 2004, 06:36 PM Okay so Kevin said Christians shouldnt be assumed to be like Children of God. This would lead me to think that they are grown children, adults. So do adults still "need" their parents? Maybe Im weird but I dont actually "need" my parents, Im independant, I care for myself and I love myself. Im serious I dont feel a "need" for my parents love. Am I the only one who feels like this? I doubt it. No disrespect to my mom or anything but seriously I have outgrown my need of affection from her. I still accept it but Im thinking, oh forget it, I cant explain it, I can only say that the need is not there. Speaking of my Mom, shes having surgery done on her toes & foot which is going to put her on crutches for 3 months. I plan on being around for this one. Shes 56 and has never been layed up in her whole life. Her surgery is on the 20th. Her boyfreind will be around for alot of it but Im still going to make frequent stops. Posted by: michelle Feb 11 2004, 06:45 PM Now you guys have got me thinking, is this a normal part of human developement, to outgrow the need of your parents? Ya never know, there could be something wrong with me. If there is, I aint fixing it. Posted by: Guest Feb 11 2004, 07:54 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ Feb 11 2004, 05:44 PM) [/QUOTE] What is it that makes this the ideal state? A person could hardly survive in this mode. Nor would he be much help to society. All these attributes of a child are due to her undeveloped mind, which she is rapidly trying to develope to become like you -- careful. I would rather that the surgeon digging around in my brain would be the care worn sort, rather than child like and care-less. Oh, and s/he damn well better know better! if the surgeon is afraid to fail, then failure is usually the result (a personal observation). most successful person could care less about the outcome of the activity when engaged in the activity. a clear mind is the goal. thanks for the reply, it made me think... Posted by: KJPee Feb 11 2004, 09:55 PM QUOTE (_Kevin @ Feb 11 2004, 06:00 P i think that the "child" reference is meant to be child-like. when a child is learning to walk, their mind is free of negativity and M) expectation. never have i seen an infant learning to walk, fall down and then say "damn, i . should do better/know better!!!" the mind should be clear of expectation, fear, doubt, failure, like that of a child. to assume that we are children to a higher power is the thinking of a closed mind:banghead: Chef et al: Just wanted you to know that this wasn't posted by me. Don't know who's playing silly buggers here. Posted by: moorezw Feb 12 2004, 05:48 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 11 2004, 09:36 PM) Maybe Im weird but I dont actually "need" my parents, Im independant, I care for myself and I love myself. Im serious I dont feel a "need" for my parents love. Michelle- No that's not abnormal at all. I appreciate the love that my parents still give me, but I don't need it like I needed it when I was a child. Then, it was necessary for my emotional and social well-being and development, but now I've moved past it. Just like for many child-like adults, religion provides stability for their emotional and social well-being, since they are not able to provide it for themselves. Posted by: semagoohay88 Feb 12 2004, 06:26 AM My dad and mom worked very hard to raise us four children, threee boys and a girl. In temperatures of about 120 degree Farenheit, dad and mom sat under asbestos roofs, with no airconditioner and no fan, and graded exams (they were high school teachers) in order to make some extra money. Why the extra money? So that they could buy new clothes for the children for the upcoming Hindu festivals, Diwali and Dasara. There are many such sacrifices from their part. My father passed away in 1985 and mom lives with me. Do I need my parents? No. I, instead need to be there for my mom. And I try my best to be there for her. As soon as I come from work, mom wants to fill up my plate with food and bring it to me. I take serious objection to it and tell her that her gesture offends me. She has already done so much for me and I do not want her to do any more for me. She does it out of love. To set the record straight, she does the same thing to my wife, too. My take is that my mom has done way too much for me and it is my turn now. Reach, I do not want to claim I have an answer for your question, but here are my 2 cents. I have forced myself to be practical, since that way, I am better prepared. What I mean is, well, do I long to have my dad alive so I could show him America and all the beautiful things here. You bet. But, can that happen? No. So I accept the futility of such a longing and move on. That is, I curb any such desire even as it is about to spring up. I gave the following analogy before, but here it is again. If I know that I am fired from my job, I am better off accepting it and planning ahead, though that thought is unpleasant, than to deceive myself and saying, "Oh well! The thought that I am fired leaves an unpleasant feeling, so I will deny it." Reach, you must have a tender heart and we all love you for that. I hope this gang of people can reach out (no pun intended) to one another and be supportive. I certainly feel wonderful everytime I visit this website. Posted by: michelle Feb 12 2004, 07:30 AM Moorez, Thanks for your last post. I see what you mean. Posted by: michelle Feb 12 2004, 07:34 AM Semigoohay, What you say about Reach is true. You know what I like about Reach? Reach is smart. This is living proof that not all Christians are stupid people. Reach, youre very smart! Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 07:51 AM Great post Zach! You always manage to observe the little things. Do you happen to have A.D.D (attention deficit disorder)? I have heard that people with A.D.D, like myself, have extraordinary observation skills, for instance I observe movie goofs all the time; recently I seen a movie with Robert De Niro, and in one scene he set a phone down on the receiver, then in the next scene when he walked back into the room he picked the phone up off the table. QUOTE (moorezw) The argument is that since God is as far above human understanding as a parent is above its child's understanding, then we are to accept the will of God as unquestioningly as a child accepts the will of its parent. Just a thought: Many parents are mentally handicapped and eventually their children exceed their mental capacity. Posted by: michelle Feb 12 2004, 08:04 AM Bill is right some parents are not so bright and children do exceed their mental capacity. Children are not dumb either. They constantly challenge their parents mental capacity as they struggle for their independance. It shouldnt have to be a stuggle to begin with. I realize that as parents we do have to have some rules but "controling" who the child is saddens me. Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 08:40 AM Michelle I have noticed that you spelt independent/independence with an 'a'.(independant) It looks like it is spelt correctly but in fact it isn't. A week ago I was doing the same. Am I turning into reach? Posted by: Reach Feb 12 2004, 09:40 AM QUOTE (sexkitten @ Feb 11 2004, 11:09 AM) QUOTE (reach @ Feb 11 2004, 10:09 AM) Am I the only one willing to see that in the deepest part of my person, something cries out for a Father-God’s love? No, you're not alone. The desire for a father-god love was a big factor in bringing me to Christianity in the first place, epecially as my own father's love was inadequate. That's it sexkitten, isn't it? The woeful inadequacy of a father's love and acceptance can drive us to pursue a god-father figure. Surrogate parent. You used few words, yet I feel like you said so much. Thanks for opening your heart here. Michelle and Z, I do believe we can grow, as I have, from a place of need to one of simple desire. Like you guys said, I don't need my father to care for me as he might have when I was younger but I certainly desire his companionship in my life. semagoohay, I think it's wise to "accept the futility" of some of what we desire, knowing some things will never be. Unpleasant truth, eh? I'm glad to see you here posting more. Thank you for your kind words. This is a very supportive place and I'm grateful to be allowed in. ;-) Especially when I consider that all my family is 2500 miles away... I'm sorry your dad didn't get to see this beautiful country. grateful, reach Posted by: Reach Feb 12 2004, 09:43 AM QUOTE (KJPee @ Feb 11 2004, 09:55 PM) Chef et al: Just wanted you to know that this wasn't posted by me. Don't know who's playing silly buggers here. Kevin, Do you accept much advice? Be wise. Post only when you're signed in, at least until you are off of probation. Your shenanigans as a guest have gotten you on the WebMaster's Bad Boy List. I tried to pm you yesterday and you are not allowed messages. Just wanted to say welcome again. reach Posted by: Reach Feb 12 2004, 09:55 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 12 2004, 07:34 AM) Semigoohay, What you say about Reach is true. You know what I like about Reach? Reach is smart. This is living proof that not all Christians are stupid people. Reach, you're very smart! semagoohay, You know what I like about Michelle? Michelle is smart. This is living proof that not all atheists are stupid people. Michelle, you're very smart! I couldn't resist. Here's what I like about Michelle. Raw, gutsy, bold honesty. My entire life, lived out mostly in the San Francisco Bay Area, my most favorite girlfriends were the raw, gutsy, bold and honest girls from New York. We always attracted each other. I admired the transparency, the strength, the true grit and the integrity. I still choose my friends for these qualities, and for the most part, they are all New York women. I may have left my heart in San Francisco but I love New York. If for no other reason than its ladies... Michelle, you're smarter than you realize and that just adds to your charm. Thanks for you. *hugs* reach Posted by: Reach Feb 12 2004, 10:11 AM QUOTE (BillJ @ Feb 12 2004, 07:51 AM) Just a thought: Many parents are mentally handicapped and eventually their children exceed their mental capacity. BillJ ~ Just a thought: Many parents are mentally handicapped by narrow vision and eventually their children exceed their mental capacity if by no other means than keeping their eyes wide open. QUOTE Michelle I have noticed that you spelt independent/independence with an 'a'. (independant) It looks like it is spelt correctly but in fact it isn't. A week ago I was doing the same. Am I turning into reach? Oh dear... ( ) ~ reach ***** semagoohay ~ Love your avatar! BillJ, you just changed yours too. Cool. Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 10:20 AM I just made an observation! Every other post has a different shade of color in the background. That is why reach's avatar has a white border that is noticeable in only some posts. I was trying to get my avatar's border to match the background of the forum so only a portion of the picture would be visible; but the different shades threw me off. Non-visible border!>>> Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 10:22 AM Visible border!>>> Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 10:29 AM QUOTE Oh dear... () ~ reach Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 12 2004, 11:36 AM I've been taught the "father's love" theory all my life. I believed it so strongly that initially when I read stories like Job, I concluded the Bible was wrong. It's amazing how long it took me to get from "the bible is wrong" to "christianity just doesn't work for me." Posted by: moorezw Feb 12 2004, 11:37 AM QUOTE (BillJ @ Feb 12 2004, 10:51 AM) You always manage to observe the little things. Do you happen to have A.D.D (attention deficit disorder)? BillJ- No, I don't. But it is hard for me to turn the analytical part of my brain off, and even when I have spare time, I burn up thought cycles going over questions and problems that I have. When I come up with something interesting, I post it here. Posted by: Lokmer Feb 12 2004, 02:21 PM I've long been of the opinion that 90% of those diagnosed with ADD are simply very intelligent, observant people in a society that does no longer respects either one. -Lokmer Posted by: UV2003 Feb 12 2004, 02:24 PM A pastor once related a cute story about his kid who said something like, "Are father who aren't in Heaven." Smart kid? -UV Posted by: CodeWarren Feb 12 2004, 02:37 PM UV - I wonder what the end of that sermon was like... "So the child said "Are father who aren't in Heaven." *pews ring with laughter* *pastor laughs* "Cute kids, yeah, but then we BURNED HER AT THE STAKE." *pews ring with laughter* the Posted by: KJPee Feb 12 2004, 04:04 PM QUOTE Do you accept much advice? Be wise. Post only when you're signed in, at least until you are off of probation. Your shenanigans as a guest have gotten you on the WebMaster's Bad Boy List. I tried to pm you yesterday and you are not allowed messages. Just wanted to say welcome again. reach Reach: Well that's just it smartypants, I could sign on, but I couldn't access the forums for some reason except as a Guest. It worked fine at work for some reason. I suspect it's an IP thing. Nice to hear your friendly face again..... Posted by: BillJ Feb 12 2004, 08:27 PM QUOTE (moorezw @ Feb 12 2004, 02:37 PM) QUOTE (BillJ @ Feb 12 2004, 10:51 AM) You always manage to observe the little things. Do you happen to have A.D.D (attention deficit disorder)? BillJ- No, I don't. But it is hard for me to turn the analytical part of my brain off, and even when I have spare time, I burn up thought cycles going over questions and problems that I have. When I come up with something interesting, I post it here. Better than having an inactive analytical mind. There are advantages and disadvantages to analytical thinking, but the advantages completely outweigh the disadvantages. Advantage: Survival of the species. Disadvantage: Reality is harsh and extensive analysis can create unwanted emotions. Advantage to the seeming disadvantage: There is the overused quote:"Ignorance is bliss.", but what I would say to that is: Ignorance is bliss until the mind cannot ignore knowledge gained through one's own perceptions or by means of information. In reality there is no disadvantage because the unwanted emotions are survival traits; but the emotions aren't unwanted, it is the reality that is causing them that is unwanted; the emotions that aid in survival aren't negative, the negation is the detrimental outcome that can occur if these emotions aren't acknowledged. This could be my new quote! My analytical mind is engaged, otherwise I would not have came up with this. Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |