| QUOTE (kemeticpoet @ Mar 9 2005, 02:18 PM) | ||
Hey, what are you trying to say...? Are you suggesting...? Nah, you couldn't mean that... |
Yes, he's saying that christians are just as they should be.
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| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Our Father Who Art In Heaven |
| Posted by: Zach Mar 9 2005, 12:37 PM | ||||
In Matthew 18, Jesus is recorded as saying:
In Romans 8, Paul says:
Christians have interpreted these passages to mean that our relationship with God is to be one that parallels the relationship of a child to a parent. The argument is that since God is as far above human understanding as a parent is above its child's understanding, then we are to accept the will of God as unquestioningly as a child accepts the will of its parent. Why is this argument so attractive to Christianity? I suggest that although a child may be curious and questioning at times, it can nearly always be satisfied with the logic of parental exasperation: "Why? Because I said so." Despite the substantial efforts of apologists over the years, I daresay Christians would relish that approach. In fact, the Roman Catholic Church codifies this approach as a "Mystery": a religious truth that is incomprehensible to reason and knowable only through divine revelation. In other words, the response is: "Why? Because God said so." (the logic of theological exasperation) However, I feel that this approach fails for one fundamental reason: children are stupid. By which I mean, by and large, it's pretty easy to fool a kid. They're very trusting by nature, simply because they haven't learned proper reasoning and critical thinking skills. Children believe in Santa Claus, they believe in the Easter Bunny, and they believe that Uncle Jack really can make coins appear out of thin air from behind their ear. Would any adult willingly revert to the mental state of a child? Of course not, and those that are that way through nature have to be monitored and taken care of. So why would anyone willingly abandon their (ostensibly) God-given reasoning and critical thinking skills to blindly accept that which they are told God has said? I was a child once, and I believed everything my parents told my like it was Gospel. But then I grew up, and I learned that the world is much bigger than my home, and there is much more truth than can be gleaned from my parents. Right or wrong, I relish my ability to form my own opinions, appraise those of others, and make my own decisions as I go through life. I wouldn't trade it for a second of childhood. Christians want to become like children; I wish they would grow up. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Mar 9 2005, 12:49 PM |
| But if they grew up what would become of the Republican party? Politicians need their sheeple to elect them into office. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Mar 9 2005, 01:03 PM | ||||
I've never understood the cognitive dissonance here either. Bottom line is that Jesus literally does say you have to be stupid and blind to enter the kingdom of heaven. I gotta hand it to them, they did create some good self fulfilling prophecy by declaring that the learned and reasonable would scoff and ridicule them. |
| Posted by: kemeticpoet Mar 9 2005, 02:18 PM | ||
Hey, what are you trying to say...? Are you suggesting...? Nah, you couldn't mean that... |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 9 2005, 02:20 PM | ||||
Yes, he's saying that christians are just as they should be. |
| Posted by: kemeticpoet Mar 9 2005, 02:52 PM | ||
ooooooh, okay. I feel better now. I knew he couldn't be saying what I thought he was saying. I love my uncle Jack! |
| Posted by: Lokmer Mar 9 2005, 08:25 PM | ||
Same can be said about the democrats, and the greens, and even the libertarians. Unthinking people are a dime a dozen, as testified to by the popularity of "Survivor" and the Democrat party (the "people's party") being in the pocket of some of the same people as are the Republicans. -Lokmer |
| Posted by: TruthWarrior Mar 9 2005, 08:30 PM |
I think we just need a good anarchist leader.  |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Mar 9 2005, 08:33 PM | ||||
Indeed. We should eyeball very closely even the politicians that we favor. I just hate theocrates is all. Anything that smacks of "Fear my Gawd or get out!" gets me paranoid. |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 06:59 AM | ||
I have to disagree with you, Zach, on a minor point or two. I have never been satisfied with answers of parental exasperation, such as "Why? Because I said so." To the contrary, I always heard that statement as something stemming from impatience, fatigue and hard-heartedness, if not hatefulness. As a Christian, I despised that approach and found it to be entirely unacceptable. As a parent, I did not use that approach, knowing it would produce results in my children that were unhealthy. I think that children are far more intelligent than adults often give them credit for and I believe adults to be far more stupid. It is adults, in fact, who teach children that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real. Adults lie to children as does Uncle Jack with his bag of tricks. Just because an adult is an accomplished liar does not a fool the child make. Children often have to be taught a lie but adults willingly embrace lies, sometimes, for an entire lifetime, because of their fear of the truth. So, who is the most stupid, really? I'm with you and have no desire to revert to childhood or childish thinking. I think many Christians seek to retain a childlike trust and they find comfort in a Daddy-God, whose lap they feel they can climb up into. They see life and the world as a fearful, dangerous place and find rest for their weary souls in the arms of Jesus. By letting God have control over their lives, they don't have to be held responsible and are not fully accountable for their less than perfect actions and faulty decisions. (Does, "Let go and let God," ring a bell?) I daresay it is not so with you. Our desire to live free of fear coupled with the embracing of life and the responsibilities of maturity are healthy pursuits and conducive to ongoing maturity. Fear stunts growth. |
| Posted by: SOIL-ITU Mar 10 2005, 07:44 AM | ||
Zach, Maybe, in this area, I am a bit of an unusual Christian, but I have interpreted these passages (along with some others) a little differently. I do agree basically with this part of what you said: "our relationship with God is to be one that parallels the relationship of a child to a parent" However, I have centered on a different 'case in point'. The difference is subtle, but I think it is important. Another way of looking at "accept the will of God", may be seen clearer by this analogy: "accept that God desires to provide the good and needed things" ... similar to how a child accepts unquestioningly that his or her needs are provided by loving parents. A young child usually does not question either that he or she needs help, or that his or her parent(s) enjoys providing for his or her needs. Thinking we are solely sufficient with supreme rights, and that God - perhaps by working through other person(s) - does not desire to help us, is a type of stupidity which I think is unique to self sufficient, highly cynical adults. -Dennis |
| Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 07:49 AM | ||
Dennis, it is usually partly due to unanswered prayers to God, for help, that an adult ends up being cynical and self-reliant. Not stupid, but practical. Not by choice, but by default. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Mar 10 2005, 09:37 AM |
| Appearantly the bible is only a message form Jehovah to bible scholars. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 10 2005, 10:44 AM | ||||
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| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 10 2005, 11:11 AM | ||
What is a supreme right Dennis? I agree with Reach and it is not a denial of god working through us, it is a realization that it was the person the entire time. It is not stupidity that allows one to realize that everything they do, they are the ones doing it. I think it is stupidity to attribute one's ability to make decisions to an invisible entity that somehow influences one's ability to make those decisions. There is no verification that the outcome would be any different. The only thing that can truly be said to influence one's decisions are their state of mind. If they want to fool themselves and say 'god did it', and a good result is the outcome of that deception, so be it. But, then again, who is to say that a better outcome may have been the result if they realized their own potential? Being cynical is the result of being deceived. I am sure a self-sufficient person that never even imagined an entity working through them is cynical due to the lack of thinking that there is no god working through them. You see...even saying that sounds stupid. |
| Posted by: Zach Mar 10 2005, 11:14 AM | ||
Reach- I was also never one to believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny when I was younger, but I did have blind faith in the infallability of my parents. The parallel of this faith in Christianity is what Dennis says is "similar to how a child accepts unquestioningly that his or her needs are provided by loving parents." Growing up taught me the lesson that my parents are not infallable, and while they may have my best interests at heart, they usually don't provide all my needs. I learned (as all adults do) to rely primarily on myself, because going through life expecting others to provide for you is not only dehumanizing, it's unhealthy. Which is why I think I left Christianity at about the same time I became independent- I put away childish things and became a man. |
| Posted by: SOIL-ITU Mar 10 2005, 01:57 PM | ||||
I think Jesus was referring to the type of faith you directed toward your parents - "when you were a child" - not after you become a man. While you were still a child, your parents were able to meet all your needs (though perhaps not all your desires). No matter how old we get in this life here on earth, we can always fit into the 'child' part of the analogy when we speak about our relationship with God. In my mind God still controls the elements - such as the weather, sunshine, rain, and the ability for the crops to grow, etc. If God changes the cosmos, for instance let's say He dims out the sun, then not many of us adults would continue to be so "self-sufficient". Yes, in this life we must eventually start assuming more responsibility to take care of ourselves, there are needs that our parents either cannot or should not continue to meet - and eventually we often need to start taking care of our parents as we sort of reverse roles for awhile. Jesus certainly knew and expected this (e.g., consider how he rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for declaring their stuff as "Corban" (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%207:10-11;&version=47;) in order to keep from using it to help their aging parents). When I "put away childish things and became a man" I did stop relying on my parents so much - but just because I was no longer living in the role of a child as relates to my physical earthly parents - that doesn't mean I need (in this life) to completely move out of a childlike role when it comes to the Faith and Trust aspects in my relationship with God. Though there are differences as I become more mature as a Christian, I never grow out of the need to believe that God exists and that He rewards me as I diligently seek Him. -Dennis |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 10 2005, 02:08 PM | ||
If you look at it that way, then no one is really self-sufficient. We all rely on the earth and the sun to survive. Regardless of what causes the sun to dim, it will affect us all the same. We are only self-sufficient to the point of being able to provide for ourselves with what there is available. No one can survive without food, water or shelter, but it is up to us to seek those things. That is what I am speaking of when I say self-sufficient...being able to provide for oneself. Do you think god would provide us loaves of bread if the sun went out and no crops grew? |
| Posted by: Zach Mar 10 2005, 02:21 PM | ||
Dennis- I wonder then, is there any real meaning to using the word "child" in reference to God if we never grow up? A child, by definition, is an early stage on the developmental path to independence. If we are, therefore, children who don't grow up, always dependent on a higher force and never truly self-sufficient, wouldn't we be better defined as slaves? |
| Posted by: SOIL-ITU Mar 10 2005, 02:30 PM | ||
NotBlind (and Reach), By the term "supreme right" I think maybe I was basically sort of expecting something like what I sensed in Reach's initial response, (now this may not be what you were intending to say Reach - which is why I didn't respond earlier) but I was sensing - that perhaps the cynicism and self-reliance that you attribute to "unanswered prayers to God, for help" - may have actually risen due to some expectation that we have a "right" to "supreme" help - for what we consider to be our "needs" - rather than defining our needs more along the lines of those things which God does in fact supply. When I consider that I am going to be alive (in one way or another) for eternity - then I don't have to feel so cynical if I don't see answers to all my prayers - and/or - I don't think all of my needs have been provided during only this part of my existence while I live in this physical body on this physical planet. (Where did the early rolling stones group get all those memorable lyrics? : "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find ... you get what you Need".) When we think we have certain rights to supreme help, and if we think we are the ones who get to define what "needs" we can expect the supreme being to provide - then yes, I can understand why we can become "cynical and self-reliant" - but I do think that "choice" does have something to do with things - because we have chosen to be the one who determines what help we can expect from God. NotBlind, I agree that it is my "state of mind" which determines my decisions (see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phillipians%202:%204-8;&version=47;) but I think that God's help is the best common denominator in the "state of mind" that results in a "good result". I think by seeking (and experiencing) the help of God I am best able to realize my own potential. I'm sorry but I just don't understand what you were saying in your last paragraph. -Dennis |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 10 2005, 02:50 PM | ||
Fair enough answers with your post Dennis...I don't want to pick it apart (which is unusual for me ).What I understood you to be saying was that a self-sufficient person that doesn't accept god working through them is cynical. What I meant was a self-sufficient person that has never even contemplated the idea that god is working through them is probably not going to be cynical. A person only becomes cynical when they feel betrayed or deceived and the person that I am referring to has probably never felt that because they never even thought that a god was working through them. Okay, I am having a difficult time with this...let me see...there are self-sufficient people without god in them that are not cynical. There, I think that is a little better. |
| Posted by: Cerise Mar 10 2005, 04:17 PM |
| Dennis, I see several problems with your arguments. Neither you, nor our good friend Mad_Gerbil have been able to give a reason why a prayer to keep faith would be rejected, seeing as what you are basically saying is physical needs do not matter as much as spiritual needs. If a person prays for spiritual needs to be met, and doesn't get them, what possible benefit could that be to both that person and the God they prayed to? |
| Posted by: SOIL-ITU Mar 10 2005, 07:07 PM | ||
Cerise, I think this is one of your more excellent questions! (Wow you brought me out of my hour and a half retirement with this one!) For some reason that I certainly don't fully understand, most of the big names in the Bible have gone through periods when the door between them and God seemed shut very tightly. They could pray and pray - but it just simply seemed that there was "nobody home". I know of similar stories with contemporary men. Then it seems that there are times when for a reason that I suppose only God Himself really understands completely, He starts communicating again. I think I understand (from personal experience) what you are describing. I don't give up easily though - maybe God wants to see that trait demonstrated? But I know just because it appears that God doesn't answer even those kinds of prayers - we don't really know that - until it's over (and if we live forever - then I suppose it is never "over"). -Dennis |