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Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Lewis&Freud - and bad apologetics


Posted by: Lokmer Nov 19 2004, 01:33 PM
So, last night I watched the first 1/2 of "A Question of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud," and I must admit to being impressed with the program on every level (even if the panel participants are a little batty at times).

So, this morning, I started googling around to see if I could find any comments written by those involved in the show. Came up empty on that one, but I did come up with this lovely jewel from Touchstone Magazine (which is a theological journal for dialogue between Eastern Orthodoxy and Evengelicalism), and I must say:

Holy shit! It's embarassing to see this kind of smug scholarship in print. Granted, apologetics is essentially jingoism mixed with advertising, but SOME apologists are actually communicators and philosophers. But this stuff...well, http://www.touchstonemag.com/2004/09/skeptics-golden-rule-i-did-enjoy.html
QUOTE (touchstone mag)
Shermer, the atheist, said that he found doing unto others as you have them do unto you was very important. Indeed, the Golden Rule is where evolution has brought us.....Evolution brought us the Golden Rule? Well, we know Who brought us the Golden Rule, so is Michael Shermer saying that Jesus was sort of the moral pinnacle of evolution?

I also fail to see how one can avoid at some point admitting that there must be something more than pure material causes at work in the world if something like the Golden Rule must be the basis for human society. But if anyone can do it, perhaps, perhaps, Michael Shermer can.

But on the other hand, if an atheist can see that Christ gave us the standard, perhaps he isn't far from seeing that in a very real sense it's because He himself is the Standard, the Second Adam by which the first Adam (and the rest of us) are measured. He isn't far from seeing this, I mean, if he doesn't avoid looking more closely at the Person of Christ, as did C. S. Lewis. 


Have the Evangelicals (and Orthodox) become so cloistered that they actually think this way? WendyDoh.gif I ran into this kind of thing as a Christian, and it drove me nuts enough that I wrote a book about it (which led to my deconversion). How can they NOT understand the substance of the skeptic's point - that this "Golden Rule" is found in ALL cultures since the keeping of written records. Even C.S. Lewis (who, despite his genuineness as a human being, his delightful way with words, his brilliance as a literary critic and sometimes as a novelist, was an appallingly bad theologian) pointed out in The Screwtape Letters that the idea of "divine revelation" of moral law was silly. Speaking of prophets, he said "The Enemy [God] sends them not to teach new things, but to remind them of what they already know." The idea being that moral sense is intrinsic to the beast (which, indeed, is bourne out by behavioral studies in animals with higher brain functions and language abilities).


Wendytwitch.gif I just don't get the narrowness Wendytwitch.gif

-Lokmer

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Nov 19 2004, 01:42 PM
Are you sure you weren't just over visiting the Tribs? GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

I think this is all they needed to say:

QUOTE
I also fail to see...

Posted by: sexkitten Nov 19 2004, 02:18 PM
QUOTE
Shermer, the atheist, said that he found doing unto others as you have them do unto you was very important. Indeed, the Golden Rule is where evolution has brought us.....Evolution brought us the Golden Rule? Well, we know Who brought us the Golden Rule, so is Michael Shermer saying that Jesus was sort of the moral pinnacle of evolution?


(a) They must have forgotten that Moses, not Jesus, is credited with the Torah, where the first Judeo-Christian version of the Golden Rule appeared. "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself." - Leviticus 19:18

(b.) "They must not have known that formulations of the "Golden Rule" appeared in Egyptian literature by 1640 BCE - at least 1700 years before the gospels in which the New Testament's "Golden Rule" was recorded in Luke and about 1000 years before the Torah was written down (~500 BCE), and similar ideas were penned by Confucian, Taoist, Zoroastrian, and Hindu scholars at about the same time as the OT's version.

I guess Egyptian culture must be the moral pinnacle of evolution. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Posted by: quicksand Nov 19 2004, 02:26 PM
Argh. That was difficult to read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
~1970-1640 BCE " Do for one who may do for you, / That you may cause him thus to do." - The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant 109-110, Ancient Egypt, tr. R.B. Parkinson.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Nov 19 2004, 02:48 PM
QUOTE (Lokmer @ Nov 19 2004, 03:33 PM)
Even C.S. Lewis (who, despite his genuineness as a human being, his delightful way with words, his brilliance as a literary critic and sometimes as a novelist, was an appallingly bad theologian) pointed out in The Screwtape Letters that the idea of "divine revelation" of moral law was silly.

I kept hearing C.S. Lewis' name pop up in debates from time to time, and I knew I had heard that name somewhere before. I dug through some old boxes and sure enough!!! I have the entire Chronicles of Narnia collection from when I was a kid.
Talk about a weird blast from the past!

Lewis is terrible! I can't believe some of the arguments he makes. My favorite is the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" trilemma. He presents this like these three are the only options. I could present another option: Lord, Liar, Lunatic, or L...Never Existed!

It should really come as no surprise that C.S. Lewis is one of Jason Gastrich's personal heroes. lmao_99.gif

Posted by: Diogenes Nov 19 2004, 03:48 PM
Here's the real Golden Rule: "Whoever has the gold, makes the rules".

One further thought - The G.R. actually is an excellent evolutionary principle. If I treat the other 5 billion people on this planet in a positive way, they will treat me positively and I am more likely to survive, as opposed to being an outcast.

Posted by: Wolfgang Nov 20 2004, 09:53 PM
I just picked up "The Screwtape Letters" the other day and am almost done with it. It was rather comical I thought.
QUOTE
Lewis is terrible! I can't believe some of the arguments he makes. My favorite is the "Lord, Liar, or Lunatic" trilemma. He presents this like these three are the only options. I could present another option: Lord, Liar, Lunatic, or L...Never Existed!

I always like "Lord, Liar, Lunatic, or Legend." It give it the "L" that it needs to round off the arguement nicely. wicked.gif

Posted by: Mr. Neil Nov 20 2004, 10:51 PM
I like having moments where I make fun of myself, as if I couldn't think of another word that started with "L".

Or maybe I shouldn't explain the subtle jokes...

Posted by: ratbag Nov 21 2004, 01:14 AM
QUOTE (Mr. Neil @ Nov 20 2004, 09:51 PM)
I like having moments where I make fun of myself, as if I couldn't think of another word that started with "L".

Or maybe I shouldn't explain the subtle jokes...

Yeah, breaking the alliteration makes it funnier. Plus, "legend" can mean (here at least) someone who is cool, or does something great.

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