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Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Debating with Christians > Is Xianity a Cult?


Posted by: Lord Umbra Mar 9 2005, 06:55 PM
Xians LOVE accusing other religions of being cults. (That and labeling them “false religions”. Precisely how any system of “god“ worship can be considered “false“ is a mystery to me. However, being ludicrous has never stopped Xians from saying stupid shit before, so why stop now?)

But just what is a cult? How does a cult differ from a religion?

Webster’s defines cult as follows:

Cult: n. 1) formal religious veneration 2) a religious system; also: its adherents 3) faddish devotion; also: a group of people showing such devotion

Now, to me, a simple reading of this definition places Christianity squarely in the cult camp. In fact every single known religion qualifies as a cult!

But Xians, specifically Bible Discernment Ministries (BDM), choose to define cult using a more narrow-minded and self-serving definition:

“From the theological position, then, a cult can be best defined as:

A system of religious beliefs and rituals with a body of adherents deeply devoted to an extra-biblical person, idea, or thing; it cultivates worship in a religion that, with reference to its basis for man's salvation, is considered to be unorthodox, spurious, or false, thereby insulating its members against true salvation in Christ. And inasmuch as the central doctrine of Biblical Christianity is the sacrificial death of Christ for man's sin (Eph. 2:8,9), all cultic deviations tend to downplay the finished work of Christ and emphasize the importance of earning moral acceptance before God through one's own religious works.”
(from BDM, http://www.rapidnet.com/%7Ejbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm)

According to BDM anything NOT Xian is automatically a cult. How convenient.

I personally dislike using the term “cult”. It is an obvious shibboleth. A hot button pejorative utilized to denigrate a group of people, relegating them to a “non-serious” or irrelevant role. By slapping the label of “cult” on a religion, opponents seek to render them inconsequential, as people are viscerally frightened away when the stigma of “cult” is attached to a group. Once spooky images of secret meetings, bizarre behaviors and glassy-eyed members are invoked, those labeled “cultish” are automatically disregarded as serious-minded opponents. I prefer NOT to resort to such childish tactics.

Historically, a cult has always been any new religious group, small in numbers, not formally recognized by the government nor the people. Such groups maintained cult status until they grew numerically significant and withstood the test of time. At such time they were then recognized as a religion of merit.

Speaking on the same subject, Ed Babinski says:

“…every new religion begins with a founder and a few dedicated disciples (whom outsiders call "fanatics"). Next it is denounced as a "cult" or as an "unauthorized" "heretical" offshoot of a previous religion. After a hundred years or so the budding faith will grow and mature, or it will fail. It has either satisfied many of its members of its authenticity and importance in their lives, or it has not. If it continues to grow, then it will eventually include millions of satisfied customers drawn from all walks of life. There is Judaism (with its ancient and new branches, and its most famous "heretical" offshoot, Christianity); Christianity (with its denominations and "heretical" offshoots like Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventism, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Unification Church, and the Unitarian Church); Islam (with its divisions and "heretical" offshoots like the universalistic Bahai faith); Hinduism (with its thousands of sects - including the Sikh religion that believes in one God and no caste system - and its most famous "heretical" offshoot Buddhism). All of them boast millions of followers from all walks of life.”
(Edward T. Babinski, critique of http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_babinski/experience.html by Josh McDowell)

So. IS Xianity a cult? Don’t answer just yet. Let’s give the Xians the benefit of the doubt and use their own standard of judgment. In their article on The Marks Of A Cult, BDM lists fourteen ways to identify a cult. They say that any religion that meets even ONE standard, qualifies as being a cult.

When I applied these same exact standards against Xianity I noted that it met 12 out of 14 standards to be considered a cult! Click on the http://www.rapidnet.com/%7Ejbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm and give it a try.

Now, personally, I don’t give a damn what anyone calls themselves. Cult, religion, or a personal relationship with the Invisible Man. Bullshit is still bullshit, and I want no part of it.

Xians need to make up their minds. If everyone else is a cult, then it's time for Xians to admit that so are they.

I am simply asking if Xians can be honest for ONCE, and stop this childish name calling? It’s like the pot calling the kettle black. Wendyloser.gif

All religious people are equally fucking wacky, and need to be fitted for straight jackets.

Thank you and good night.

Posted by: Euthyphro Mar 9 2005, 07:16 PM
It is a death cult. It values the afterlife as more important than LIFE.

Posted by: michelle Mar 9 2005, 08:35 PM
Rick Ross and Margaret Singer know alot about cults. I use to belong to an A.A. group that was pretty cultish. I would say that most of Christianity is a cult. Most churches have a charasmatic leader and it's not always the pastor. I would hate to judge an entire religion based on one church though. The same for A.A., you can't judge the whole system on one group. I don't beleive in God, that's all I know.
The desire to have idols and people to look up to is gone.

Posted by: Tocis Mar 9 2005, 10:07 PM
QUOTE (Euthyphro @ Mar 10 2005, 04:16 AM)
It is a death cult. It values the afterlife as more important than LIFE.

Absolutely. Though I have to admit that, for example, with the "salvation through works" believers the fixation on death at least isn't as painfully obvious and damaging.

Posted by: Bruce Mar 10 2005, 12:26 AM
The real world, working definition of a cult is any religion that is not accepted by the majority of people as legitimate or that is different from a generally accepted religion. If you read ancient Roman writers, they considered Christianity to be a new, false belief system and a cult and they considered Christians to be atheists.

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 10 2005, 02:57 AM
*looks up from a large copper tub with tiny carved bones in it*

*sets down the dead chicken*

*wanders over to the crowd with glazed eyes*

Yeeesss, itsss a culllt. Youuu shouuldd joinnn uuusss.
Ittss peeeaaaaacccceful.

*begins to fiddle with the feathers and tiny stone necklace he wears around his neck*


-----------------------------------------------

'Cult' is jut a term for the organization to which someone with a different belief system belongs.


Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 04:09 AM
QUOTE (Euthyphro @ Mar 9 2005, 07:16 PM)
It is a death cult. It values the afterlife as more important than LIFE.

True. In all fairness, however, it attempts to answer some of the questions pertaining to an "after-life."

And Christianity is a cult, by the most widely acceptable standard, the published definition, found in the most respected dictionaries. Trust your dictionary.

Posted by: Eccles1:2 Mar 10 2005, 04:34 AM
Hey, don't knock cult status. Without that, how would we describe the Simpsons and Dr Who?

But I think christianity as a whole is too large and institutionalised to be a cult even though it undoubtably harbours some under its hugely diverse umbrella. Also, the term has been largely hijacked by christians to apply to "that which looks a bit like us, but is not us". As Peter Gabriel put it:

There's safety in numbers
When you learn to divide
How can we be in
If there is no outside
All shades of opinion
Feed an open mind
But your values are twisted
Let us help you unwind
You may look like we do
Talk like we do
-But you know how it is

You're not one of us
Not one of us
No you're not one of us

- Peter Gabriel, "Not One Of Us", 1980

Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 05:07 AM
QUOTE (Eccles1:2 @ Mar 10 2005, 04:34 AM)
Hey, don't knock cult status. Without that, how would we describe the Simpsons and Dr Who?

FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

I think Christianity has infected many of us with a mindset to see the word, cult, in a negative light.

The dictionary is trustworthy; the mindset is not.

Posted by: skankboy Mar 10 2005, 05:13 AM
QUOTE
'Cult' is jut a term for the organization to which someone with a different belief system belongs.


I believe MG got in one on this point. The word cult, as it's used today, is nothing more than a way of drawing a line between two sets of worldviews. Creating an "us" and "them" mentality that at once creates a sense of community w/in the group and giving them a external "enemy" upon which to focus their energies.

But, I'm also w/Reach and some of the others. By definition, christianity is definitely a cult.

Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 05:27 AM
QUOTE (skankboy @ Mar 10 2005, 05:13 AM)
QUOTE
'Cult' is jut a term for the organization to which someone with a different belief system belongs.
The word cult, as it's used today, is nothing more than a way of drawing a line between two sets of worldviews. Creating an "us" and "them" mentality that at once creates a sense of community w/in the group and giving them a external "enemy" upon which to focus their energies.

But, I'm also w/Reach and some of the others. By definition, christianity is definitely a cult.

If I may be so bold... these statements are weakened by the careless use of absolutes.

QUOTE (MG)
'Cult' is just a term...


QUOTE (Skankboy)
The word cult, as it's used today, is nothing more than...


The word cult is a tool and a weapon, among other things. It is *NOT* just a term. It's divisive, as stated, but more than that, its use is most often born of the desire to define, delineate and to weaken or conquer the opposing structure.

Use absolutes sparingly and with great caution. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Posted by: Heimdall Mar 10 2005, 06:10 AM
Why do you think I have been calling them, "Christ Cultists" all of these years? PageofCupsBounce99.gif

Posted by: Bruce Mar 10 2005, 06:16 AM
QUOTE (Heimdall @ Mar 10 2005, 09:10 AM)
Why do you think I have been calling them, "Christ Cultists" all of these years? PageofCupsBounce99.gif

Because "You Da Man", Heimdall!

Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 06:18 AM
QUOTE (Heimdall @ Mar 10 2005, 06:10 AM)
Why do you think I have been calling them, "Christ Cultists" all of these years? PageofCupsBounce99.gif

Exactly!

You nailed it with that one.

Posted by: anony~mouse Mar 10 2005, 06:54 AM
QUOTE (Eccles1:2 @ Mar 10 2005, 07:34 AM)
Hey, don't knock cult status. Without that, how would we describe the Simpsons and Dr Who?

I don't know about you, but I describe The Simpsons as the rotting corpse of a former love, the decomposing zombie still limping around on its ragged feet despite having long since died. It wears the face of your beloved, yes! but all it wants from you are your delicious brains.

It used to be a cult. When it was good. Then all the good writers grew up and got more lucrative jobs and now it betrays me anew every Sunday night at 8pm.

Posted by: Reach Mar 10 2005, 07:21 AM
QUOTE (anony~mouse @ Mar 10 2005, 06:54 AM)
QUOTE (Eccles1:2 @ Mar 10 2005, 07:34 AM)
Hey, don't knock cult status. Without that, how would we describe the Simpsons and Dr Who?
I don't know about you, but I describe The Simpsons as the rotting corpse of a former love, the decomposing zombie still limping around on its ragged feet despite having long since died. It wears the face of your beloved, yes! but all it wants from you are your delicious brains.

It used to be a cult. When it was good. Then all the good writers grew up and got more lucrative jobs and now it betrays me anew every Sunday night at 8pm.

Addicted to love!?! FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Posted by: Slayer-2004 Mar 10 2005, 07:30 AM
Ive seen some christians use this in circular logic before .

1.According to our god , all other religions are cults
2.therefore , all other religions are wrong because cults are bad .
3.Thus , we know our religion is true .

I swear I actually saw something like this on CF once . Man I laughed my ass off when I saw it . Wendyloser.gif



Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 10 2005, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (Reach @ Mar 10 2005, 05:27 AM)
The word cult is a tool and a weapon, among other things. It is *NOT* just a term. It's divisive, as stated, but more than that, its use is most often born of the desire to define, delineate and to weaken or conquer the opposing structure.

Such as gerbil's use of the word 'mere' when describing biochemicals. FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

Posted by: Lokmer Mar 10 2005, 03:33 PM
QUOTE (Reach @ Mar 10 2005, 06:18 AM)
QUOTE (Heimdall @ Mar 10 2005, 06:10 AM)
Why do you think I have been calling them, "Christ Cultists" all of these years? PageofCupsBounce99.gif

Exactly!

You nailed it with that one.

Am I the only one who finds the above quotation deliciously ironic? crucified.gif

-Lokmer

Posted by: Fweethawt Mar 10 2005, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (Lokmer @ Mar 10 2005, 06:33 PM)
QUOTE (Reach @ Mar 10 2005, 06:18 AM)
QUOTE (Heimdall @ Mar 10 2005, 06:10 AM)
Why do you think I have been calling them, "Christ Cultists" all of these years? PageofCupsBounce99.gif

Exactly!

You nailed it with that one.

Am I the only one who finds the above quotation deliciously ironic? crucified.gif

-Lokmer

Not any more. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif lmao_99.gif GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

This reminds me of another church sign
that is posted in my town.

QUOTE (Church sign that is posted in my town)
We fix problems with tape and glue.
God does it with nails.

Posted by: AUB Mar 10 2005, 10:56 PM
"Cult" works for me, subdivided among doomsday cults (Rapture nuts) and personality ones, ("Relationship" nuts). In some ways it has changed from it's cultic roots, (liberal, progressive denominations), but the more extreme are a throw back and have the same elements that characterised it when it was just a bunch of Gnostic and Pauline nutters corrupting the Roman fringes.


Posted by: dannyboy Mar 11 2005, 12:05 AM
The answer... Ex-Christianity is a cult.

Posted by: NIGHTFLIGHT Mar 11 2005, 12:49 AM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Mar 11 2005, 12:05 AM)
The answer... Ex-Christianity is a cult.

But we don't condemn you to hell for not being an ex-christian. Big difference, huh?

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 11 2005, 02:55 AM
QUOTE
But we don't condemn you to hell for not being an ex-christian. Big difference, huh?


Not really. I imagine you would if you could... However, why would you condemn me to a place you don't believe exists? Instead you condemn me to a hell on earth... your version of hell, where idiots like me go... and other idiot fundies not powerful enough to compete with your strong mind.

Hell is only frightening to those that believe in it after all. There is nothing I can do to condemn you. According to Jesus, if you do not recieve God's gift that pays the fine you owe, you stand condemned already. Really nothing I personally, as a Christian, have to do one way or the other to finalize that.

Posted by: Cerise Mar 11 2005, 04:33 AM
dannyboy:

You are Christian and yet under "Gods" you have put "none" hm? Is this deliberate deception or were you just forgetting your invisible friend for a minute?

Posted by: NIGHTFLIGHT Mar 11 2005, 07:20 AM
QUOTE
Not really. I imagine you would if you could...


Nope. Wrong again.

QUOTE
However, why would you condemn me to a place you don't believe exists?


See above.

QUOTE
Instead you condemn me to a hell on earth... your version of hell, where idiots like me go... and other idiot fundies not powerful enough to compete with your strong mind.


So your life is that hard? Why do you call it hell on earth?


Posted by: Peyton Mar 11 2005, 07:40 AM
I think there's an assumption out there that a cult couldn't possibly be a group like AA with its millions of members or Christianity with its billion or however much it has. I too was a member of a 12 step group and they seriously f*cked my head up and was bitterly unhappy there, it was VERY cultish in behaviour ... using slogans as answers, thought-stopping techniques, downplaying people's achievements "if you get sober it's because of God but if you go out and drink it's because of you and your own weak and feeble mind" plus various other ways of controlling.

I can remember one such meeting where the Chair interrupted someone sharing because he had mentioned he was a Pagan, he said something along the lines of "we don't want to hear about f*cking witchcraft, if you've got nothing important to share then p*ss off, people here wish to get sober not hear sh*t like that!" Funnily enough, it was after the Chair had shared his views of sobriety with the night's Speaker on how Catholicism and Jesus Christ had saved him from himself eek.gif

Same with Christianity. I was always being told of the 'evils' of other religions and of the cults 'out there' but the very behaviours they were warning us about I could see within my own congregation. Controlling attitudes telling us who we could and couldn't mix with, I can remember one specific home group where the home group leader told us that "it doesn't matter how sincere a Hindu or a Jew is, they've denied Christ and they're going to Hell." I mean, that was a disgraceful thing to say. We were told we had Freedom in Christ yet I never felt I had any personal freedom at all, I seemed to be always afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.

To finish I would say that there are very many cultish ideas and groups out there but I also strongly believe that instead of worrying about those still involved, we should celebrate the fact that we got out. Perhaps those still involved don't wish to leave, after all there is a sense of there being safety in numbers. Are 12 step programs a cult? Is Christianity a cult? There are genuinely good churches out there even though I don't like the religion and there are good 12 step programs out there that genuinely help people to get their lives back together again and offer support. However, I do see both groups as cultish in certain ways.

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 11 2005, 01:01 PM
QUOTE
You are Christian and yet under "Gods" you have put "none" hm? Is this deliberate deception or were you just forgetting your invisible friend for a minute?


Descirbe your religion or lack of religion here:

None. Oh I certainly believe in God... but I try to be as unreligious about the Truth of who He is as possible. Unreligiously seeking God is the only way to do it. wicked.gif

Posted by: Cerise Mar 11 2005, 01:04 PM
So you have no docterine, you do not follow the bible or its teachings?

Posted by: dannyboy Mar 11 2005, 01:10 PM
I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, that is was written by men God has write, and then that witnessed and knew Jesus Christ Himself. I believe in that, but I believe unless you experientially seek God for yourself... It's never going to do you any good. You can't just carry a book around, and enter a building with a cross atop a pointy steeple... and call yourself a Christian. I suppose you could but that wouldn't be true, necessarily. It is not the moment you touch a Bible, and put yourself within relative proximity of a place of worship that you become a Christian... A lot of people seem to think it is and are going to be just as surprised as those who openly rejected the Will of God on Judgment Day.

You become a Chrsitain the moment you repent of your former life, seeking God, and put your faith in Christ to save you from it. The moment you know Christ, you become a Christian.

If a person has never known Christ, they have never been a Christian before in there lives. I would actually ask this question to many 'ex-Christians.' --- When did you know the Lord Jesus Christ?

Posted by: quicksand Mar 11 2005, 01:15 PM
Yes yes, I know no one on this site was ever a True Christian™. Only you oh Dannyboy are a True Christian™. Even if I say I felt all those things that you felt and did all the same things you did, you would always be the True Christian™ blah blah blah.

Excuse me, I've got honey to pour on my porridge.

Posted by: Cerise Mar 11 2005, 01:18 PM
QUOTE
You become a Chrsitain the moment you repent of your former life, seeking God, and put your faith in Christ to save you from it. The moment you know Christ, you become a Christian.


And you know this because of what was written in the bible. Sorry, sounds an awful lot like a religion to me.

And oh no, not another "you never were christian" argument. I get tired of the same old thing. You guys got anything new and interesting?

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 11 2005, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (dannyboy @ Mar 11 2005, 01:10 PM)
You become a Chrsitain the moment you repent of your former life, seeking God, and put your faith in Christ to save you from it. The moment you know Christ, you become a Christian.

How is you that one can come to know christ? Can I just talk to him and he will tell me all about himself or do I need to know who the bible says he is and talk to him like I really know him. Because, I would have no idea who he is without reading the bible. Would you?

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