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Posted by: crazy-tiger Mar 1 2005, 06:06 AM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 1 2005, 01:40 PM)
I believe for the same reasons that many of you claim not to believe, my intellect.

God simply makes sense to me. I see the universe and the life within it. I see from a mathematical and scientific perspective the odds are just too overwhelming for it all to be the result of haphazard chance.

Which odds? The odds of the universe and the life in it being EXACTLY as there are, or the odds of the universe existing with life in some form existing in it?

It's a question that needs answering, since the odds for it being EXACTLY like it is are not the same as the odds of it just existing... (little tip for you... the odds of it just existing are 1 in 1)
QUOTE
I may not understand all of God’s ways and the Bible can be a very confusing book. However, without God, nothing adds up.

Goodness, I'd never heard that arguement before... WendyDoh.gif

Do yourself a favour... Read up on TAG and why it doesn't work. (heck, just read all the posts that W.V.Quine made and see just how useless it is)

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 1 2005, 06:33 AM
I'd like to know what complex algorithms Christians use when they make arguments about "the odds".

Posted by: Reach Mar 1 2005, 06:53 AM
QUOTE (Mr. Neil @ Mar 1 2005, 06:33 AM)
I'd like to know what complex algorithms Christians use when they make arguments about "the odds".

Most of them are parroting their favorite pulpit jockeys.*


*Thanks to Jayrok for resurrecting this old term.

Posted by: invictus1967 Mar 2 2005, 07:49 AM
The probability of the chance formation of a hypothetical functional simple cell, given all the ingredients (which is a BIG given), is acknowledged to be worse than 1 in 10^57800.

That is a probability of 1 in a number with 57800 zeroes. It would take 11 full pages of magazine type to print that number.

To help you put that number in perspective, there are only 10^80 (a number with 80 zeroes) total electrons in the universe.

Even if the elements beat the odds and came together in the right place at the right time and formed a simple cell, where did the programming for the cell (encoded on the DNA) come from?

Also, where is the fossil record of evolution? Evolutionist say that man evolved from ape, where is the “missing link”? What did ape evolve from, did they just appear?

What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Evolutionist claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing into more complex and ordered arrangements. However, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (a basic law of science) says the opposite. It says arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time

Evolution is a much greater leap of “faith” than creation.

Posted by: TruthWarrior Mar 2 2005, 08:01 AM
Then God shall have a pop quiz when thou dies. Whosoever guesses not the age of the earth and how it was formed correctly shall be thrown into a pit of never ending torture.

Verily I say this, because god is the mean and unforgiving to ones he claims to love.

Posted by: invictus1967 Mar 2 2005, 08:31 AM
ThuthWarrior,

Are you saying there is a God but you just don’t like Him?

Do you agree with my post in that evolution requires a much larger leap of faith than does creationism?

You are wrong about the quiz; it isn’t given when you die. It is given every day of you life with only one question--- What do you believe?

You find out what you made on it when you die.

Posted by: EternalDarkness Mar 2 2005, 08:38 AM
Is that supposed to be a threat, Invictus? 'Cos it isn't working. And you may be the one who's in for a rude awakening once the party's over.

Evolution does not take a greater leap of faith than creationism does. The theory of evolution is backed by scientific evidence that suggests such. And before you ask me: No, I'm not going to do your homework for you. Try reading an actual scientific research book on the subject. Heck, just the average 8th grade Earth Science textbook will do.

There's nothing outside of the bible that supports the possibility of the Earth being created in only six days. Nothing, nada, nyet. Capisce?

Posted by: quicksand Mar 2 2005, 08:48 AM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 07:49 AM)
The probability of the chance...

That is a probability...

To help you put that number...

Even if the elements beat the odds....

Also, where is the fossil record of evolution?

What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

Invictus, your post here is tantamount to trying to prove a positive by our gaps in knowledge and or theory. To prove a positive you must gather your own evidence that points and supports the proposition you wish to make.

Regarding this specifically :

QUOTE
What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?

You know there is more than 2 or 3 laws do you not? Care to guess the number?

QUOTE
Evolutionist claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing into more complex and ordered arrangements.

Wrong. you are confusing two different branches of science.

Once an organism evolves to its environment, evolution stops. Therefore the developing complexity of that specific organism stops as well, or until new environmental pressures are put upon it forcing it to adapt or go exctict.

There is also the theory of "Static Equilibration" proposed by Stephen Gould. When a species hits a "population bottleneck" causing mass numbers to die off, leaving a few survivors behind to differentiate and evolve into new species. Thus, leaving an incomplete fossil record.

Furthermore, adaptation is not perfect.

QUOTE
However, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (a basic law of science) says the opposite. It says arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time

The universe might be a closed system (of which we can not conclude absolutely) however it does not prevent areas of order from rising within pockets of the universe. It's like snow pilling up in a courtyard and then being blown around from one pile to another.

But more importantly, you are confusing the 2nd Law with the 1st law. This is why we have no "perpetual motion" machines.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 09:11 AM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 10:49 AM)
The probability of the chance formation of a hypothetical functional simple cell, given all the ingredients (which is a BIG given), is acknowledged to be worse than 1 in 10^57800.

That is a probability of 1 in a number with 57800 zeroes. It would take 11 full pages of magazine type to print that number.

Everyone repeat after me...

This is only an important statistic if life popped into existence in a single event.

You completely ignore theories of process, where simple structures becomes more complex through processes. I'm tired of creationists treating these things as if life just popped up off of a rock and then reporting "the odds" as if they're fucking C-3P0 or something.

"But, sir! The possibility of life forming from non-life is approximately 10^57800 to 1!"

QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 10:49 AM)
What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Evolutionist claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing into more complex and ordered arrangements. However, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (a basic law of science) says the opposite. It says arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time

Evolution is a much greater leap of “faith” than creation.

You've just demonstrated that, like most creationists, you don't understand the second law of thermodynamics. You just enjoy parroting what you've heard on creationists sites, regardless of whether or not you actually understand the laws of thermodynamics.

The only way to violate the second law of thermodynamics is to use more energy than is available. If it was impossible for simple structures to become more complex, then nothing would ever work. The universe would be inert.

Jesus Christ! Try something new.

Posted by: Michael S. Tutwiler Mar 2 2005, 09:17 AM
Invictus, please cite your sources for those probabilities. Submitting work without sources is an intellectual faux pas!

Also, consider this:

The amount of time that "life" on earth was single-cellular ("simple" from here on, for ease) far far exceeds the amount of time that complex life has existed.

Spread your arms as wide as you can and designate that as the geographical timeline of the earth...moving from your left hand to your right.

The amount of time that complex life has been on earth is occupied in the space of the fingers of your right hand (and that's a conservative estimate). Taking the extreme amount of time involved for life to develope up to that point into account idea life without a creator becomes perfectly rational.

(See "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by Bill Bryson for more details!)

Posted by: crazy-tiger Mar 2 2005, 09:24 AM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 03:49 PM)
The probability of the chance formation of a hypothetical functional simple cell, given all the ingredients (which is a BIG given), is acknowledged to be worse than 1 in 10^57800.

How many planets are there in this galaxy alone that are capable of supporting life as we know it? The acknowledged figure is in excess of 100,000,000.
How many galaxies are there? Not sure myself, but it's in excess of 1,000,000 that we know of. (very likely a low figure, but we'll run with it for now)
How many times do you think the possible ingredients might have combined over the billions of years that the universe has been in existence? Personally, I've no idea, but I know it's going to be a lot more than just ONCE.

Start doing the maths...
Say it happens just once a day on each planet, these ingredients coming together...
That results in 1,000,000,000,000,000 possible combinations A DAY!
Now multiply that by the 4.5 BILLION years the universe has existed for...
The result is that there would be 16,425,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chances.

That just assuming once a day, which is an impossibly low estimate. Considering the size of a planet, it's going to be in the region of several billion times a second.
Lets do the maths on that one...
It results in 559,417,100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
chances for a self-replicating molecule to appear. Once you have that, you have everything you need for a functional simple cell to evolve.

That's where you make a mistake... working on the odds for the cell to appear when it's not the first step.

The odds for a self-replicating molecule appearing somewhere in the universe are LESS than the number of possible chances. Or in plain English... it's a certainty.
QUOTE
Also, where is the fossil record of evolution? Evolutionist say that man evolved from ape, where is the “missing link”? What did ape evolve from, did they just appear?

Unfortunately, evolution doesn't say that man evolved from ape. Try learning something about it before you parrot all the lies you've been taught.
QUOTE
What about the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics? Evolutionist claims that over billions of years everything is basically developing into more complex and ordered arrangements. However, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (a basic law of science) says the opposite. It says arrangements actually tend to become simpler and more disorderly with time

That's been thoroughly debunked enough times.

2nd Law states that entropy increases in a closed system... Only problem is, the Earth isn't a closed system as it recieves MASSIVE amounts of energy from the sun.

Please learn about what you're trying to debunk... You'll find that what you think you know and what you've been taught is not what evolution is.

Posted by: TruthWarrior Mar 2 2005, 09:30 AM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 12:31 PM)
ThuthWarrior,

Are you saying there is a God but you just don’t like Him?

I do not know whether or not there is a god. There is insufficient evidence for me right now. Certainatly creation is beautiful and complex to us, but that does not mean that there is even a creator God. That is just an assumption. Atheists assume there isn't a god. Apparently its anyones guess.

QUOTE
Do you agree with my post in that evolution requires a much larger leap of faith than does creationism?


No it takes more faith to believe in young earth creationism claims.

QUOTE
You are wrong about the quiz; it isn’t given when you die. It is given every day of you life with only one question--- What do you believe?


I realize that a person can worry about this "quiz" all the days of his life. Looking at creation brings many questions to a person mind, not always just one. A person questions the nature of man and nature and existance of God by examining it. Though profound and inspiring its provides no easy answers. So I would say I still dont know. Some days I guess there is a god, others I don't.

QUOTE
You find out what you made on it when you die.


I would hope so. It would be nice to know how things formed. We do now at least know how we are formed in the womb. From and couple of cells to a complex form of a human. The church if I'm not mistaken had another theory on the particulars of that in the past. I wonder if they burnt people who questioned their assumptions on it. Seems the same worry also happened over the question of a speherical earth revolving around the sun. A bit stubborn to admit they were wrong weren't they?

But the real matter you seem to be worrying about is the consequence of not knowing this particular thing right now. I would assume you are really just worried about the fate of eternal souls. Or maybe you are worried about your own also. I for one and hopeful enough to believe that if there is a god he would be nice to forgive our lack of knowledge of these particulars and love everyone, at least eventually. Maybe I'm too nice.

Do you think I should be more pessimistic? Should I also worry about how to properly be baptised and how the world is going to end? Should I drink grape juice or wine. Should I have a common communion cup or and individual one? So many things to worry about. Sometimes I think god thinks people are just silly.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 09:57 AM
QUOTE (crazy-tiger @ Mar 2 2005, 12:24 PM)
2nd Law states that entropy increases in a closed system... Only problem is, the Earth isn't a closed system as it recieves MASSIVE amounts of energy from the sun.

Please learn about what you're trying to debunk... You'll find that what you think you know and what you've been taught is not what evolution is.

Every time I see a creationist utter the phrase "the second law of thermodynamics", I throw up in my mouth a little. Nothing reveals the intent of creationists than when they try to make a point from that which they clearly don't understand.

Posted by: quicksand Mar 2 2005, 09:59 AM
QUOTE
...as if life just popped up off of a rock and then reporting "the odds" as if they're fucking C-3P0 or something.


Fucking brilliant! GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

Posted by: invictus1967 Mar 2 2005, 11:15 AM
The second law of thermodynamics is a straightforward law of physics with the consequence that, in a closed system, you can't finish any real physical process with as much useful energy as you had to start with, some is always wasted.

How can things “evolve” to more complex if the process leaves you with less energy than you had before?

How can there be an eternal universe when this law is applied? Eventually the energy would be used up. Eventually the sun will burn itself out and so will every other star. Eventually gravity will weaken to the point that the universe flies apart.

In short, the universe (based on this law) can NOT have an infinite history.

There had to be a beginning and thus Something to begin it.

As one of you said, a perpetual motion machine is impossible.

Brilliant you say?????

Posted by: quicksand Mar 2 2005, 12:03 PM
QUOTE
The second law of thermodynamics is a straightforward law of physics with the consequence that, in a closed system, you can't finish any real physical process with as much useful energy as you had to start with, some is always wasted.


Neil said it best: "The only way to violate the second law of thermodynamics is to use more energy than is available. If it was impossible for simple structures to become more complex, then nothing would ever work. The universe would be inert"

Apparently you just selectively choose not to read it.

QUOTE
How can things “evolve” to more complex if the process leaves you with less energy than you had before?


CT said it best: "2nd Law states that entropy increases in a closed system... Only problem is, the Earth isn't a closed system as it recieves MASSIVE amounts of energy from the sun."

Apparently you just selectively choose not to read this as well.

QUOTE
How can there be an eternal universe when this law is applied? Eventually the energy would be used up. Eventually the sun will burn itself out and so will every other star. Eventually gravity will weaken to the point that the universe flies apart.

In short, the universe (based on this law) can NOT have an infinite history.

Unh unh.

Quicksand to Wiredoutreach: "I guess you already know that we can only observe some billions of light years of the universe in one direction, which is light that is several billions of years old in itself, and that beyond that limitation of what our instruments can detect – we have no idea. You know that, don't you?

You are being presumptuous."


QUOTE
There had to be a beginning and thus Something to begin it.

Only when your question begs that answer.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 12:15 PM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 02:15 PM)
How can things “evolve” to more complex if the process leaves you with less energy than you had before?

I can't believe you're even asking that. Because life on planet earth is the result of a local gain at the expense of energy loss of the whole. Don't you understand physics? Why can't creationists grasp the difference between local energy gains versus total energy loss.

A good example is your car battery. Your car gets energy from an external source, which is gasoline. The gasoline powers the engine, which turns the alternator, and charges the car battery. The car battery is your local energy gain, which comes at the expense of the entire car engine system. Eventually the car will run out of fuel, and the battery will lose the energy it gains from the gasoline. That's the second law applied properly.

Local energy gain versus total energy loss! It's not that difficult.

What you're suggesting is that the energy gain of the battery is impossible, which is absurd! If energy gain was impossible, nothing in the universe would work. The universe would be inert.

Stop reading creationist websites! Your pitiful logic is defeated when it's applied elsewhere.

Posted by: quicksand Mar 2 2005, 12:22 PM
Invictus, you still need to gives us evidence of your God. All you've done is whip up some statics, as incredible as they might be, and gaps in our scientific knowledge base. None of which are evidence for God, but for either the limitations of that science or how many decimal places that a subjective number of odds that you can produce.

Still not evidence.

Bring me God's fingernail, since you seem to think that his fingerprints are over everything.

Til then, you got nothing – except a way to lull and sway the gullible.

Posted by: Euthyphro Mar 2 2005, 12:36 PM
1) My bible is the word of a gawd. My bible is proof of my gawd.
2) I will only make arguments for my gawd through arguments to ignorance, without defending my premise i.e. "My bible is gawd breathed."
3) I will expect folks to not point out my circular reasoning, and arguments to ignorance.
4) I have won in decieving myself.

Hehe.

Posted by: Michael S. Tutwiler Mar 2 2005, 12:37 PM
Invictus...I think you're forgetting a very important part of the thermodynamic nature of the biosphere (aka Earth).

It's not a closed system.

*GASP*

The Sun constantly pumps energy into it, some of which is retained, some of which is reflected and lost. Additionally, radiant heat and energy from the Earth's core makes your overly-simplistic model very very wrong.

Your point of view of the Earth is like treating your car's engine like a Carnot engine...fine for ideal situations...but totally unrealistic in application.

Mr. Neil hit in on the head...stop regurgitating intellectual vomitus from apologetic websites.

Come original or stay at bay.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 12:38 PM
QUOTE (Euthyphro @ Mar 2 2005, 03:36 PM)
4) I have won in decieving myself.

That's basically what they accomplish. That's the irony of creationists who insist on using their alternate sciences to explain away difficult things that don't match up with their theology. They only succeed in deluding themselves.

Posted by: invictus1967 Mar 2 2005, 01:59 PM
Alternate science???? I am not the one trying to twist physics to accommodate my desired history of the world. Energy gets used up, that is fundamental and basic physics.

The car battery that was thrown at me is a GREAT example. It must be constantly charged by the alternator which is powered by the engine which relies on gasoline. When the engine runs out of gas it stops and the alternator then stops and the charging of the battery stops. Is there an endless supply of gas? Even if there were, would the battery, alternator, or engine last forever? The same can be said about this universe, it will eventually use itself up. The laws of physics dictate it.

Are you trying to say the sun is an endless supply of energy? I assume you do know that it is a big ball of fire. All fires eventually burn themselves out. Just as the Earth does not have an endless supply of oil, the sun does not have an endless supply of hydrogen.

Clinging to “closed systems” as your rescue is weak at best. Are you saying the laws of physics only apply to laboratory settings?

The BASIC laws of physics do not allow for eternal perpetual motion. Please give me your version of (alternate?) science that disputes that.

Fundamental physical laws do not allow for an eternal universe. If our universe is not eternal it must have had a beginning and consequently a Beginner.

In regards to showing God’s fingerprint, do you need flashlight to see the sun???

Where is the evidence for evolution? There is no evidence; species simply and abruptly appear in the fossil record. Consider this from a prominent EVOLUTIONARYbiologist:

"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?," Paleobiology, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 1980, p.127).

And how about this:

"The 'modern evolutionary synthesis' convinced most biologists that natural selection was the only directive influence on adaptive evolution. Today, however, dissatisfaction with the synthesis is widespread, and creationists and antidarwinians are multiplying. The central problem with the synthesis is its failure to show (or to provide distinct signs) that natural selection of random mutations could account for observed levels of adaptation." (Leigh, Egbert G., Jr. [Biologist, Smithsonian Institution, USA], "The modern synthesis, Ronald Fisher and creationism," Trends in Ecology and Evolution, Vol. 14, No. 12, pp.495-498, December 1999, p.495).

Exactly who is being deceived?????

Posted by: quicksand Mar 2 2005, 02:07 PM
QUOTE
Alternate science???? I am not the one trying to twist physics to accommodate my desired history of the world. Energy gets used up, that is fundamental and basic physics.

HAHAHAHAHAAH!

Yer kidding right?

QUOTE
In regards to showing God’s fingerprint, do you need flashlight to see the sun???

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Maybe you should stick to cut-n-paste, independent thought doesn't seem to be your strongest assets.

QUOTE
Where is the evidence for evolution? There is no evidence; species simply and abruptly appear in the fossil record. Consider this from a prominent EVOLUTIONARYbiologist:

I answered you buddy. Again, you choose to ignore it.

"The theory of "Static Equilibration" proposed by Stephen Gould. When a species hits a "population bottleneck" causing mass numbers to die off, leaving a few survivors behind to differentiate and evolve into new species. Thus, leaving an incomplete fossil record."

Besides we have plenty of evidence by indirect observation of other species.

QUOTE
"The absence of fossil evidence...

"The 'modern evolutionary synthesis' ....


Quote mining once again.

Listen buddy, you're still doing exactly the same thing. You're trying to prove god without evidence and proof of your own.

Posted by: TruthWarrior Mar 2 2005, 02:11 PM
Sure does sound scientificy. I thinks I'll reconvert! Cryotanknotworthy.gif

Posted by: Michael S. Tutwiler Mar 2 2005, 02:21 PM
QUOTE
Are you trying to say the sun is an endless supply of energy? I assume you do know that it is a big ball of fire.


QUOTE
Clinging to “closed systems” as your rescue is weak at best. Are you saying the laws of physics only apply to laboratory settings?


I, as a DoE certified nuclear technician and high school physics teacher, will not debate physics with someone who calls a star a "big ball of fire" and doesn't understand the critical difference between closed and open systems, and why that distinction is so important.

My parting words to you are:

Spend the money and take a few classes at your local institution of higher learning, or, spend a bit less and sit yourself down in the library with some core astronomy and physics books. You're seriously lacking in a lot of basic knowledge to try and debate those subjects.

Stop being a Hovind-bot.

Cheers!

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 2 2005, 02:30 PM
In answering the Laws of Thermodynamics wouldn't it be true that the universe is a closed system?

It seems to me that while it is true that the sun is constantly feeding energy into the earth one might wonder how the entire universe got to the point of non-equilibrium. Assuming the universe is eternal, how on earth (no pun intended) did we get to the point where the sun has all of this lovin' energy to give when one might expect the universe to have assumed a state of perfect entropy in eternity past?

Oh sure, one can focus on the sun and the earth but there is no reason whatsoever that the universe, at this point in time, should be in anything other than a perfect state of entropy.

Ya can bawl all ya want to on that one -- you can invoke repetative big bangs -- but whatever point in time you wish to start all of eternity past still remains. In short, there are some pretty large fundamental questions that remain unanswered here -- and they do get brushed aside.

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 2 2005, 02:38 PM
Just a note:

I'm not meaning to be an ignorant Creationist dumbbutt here, it just seems silly to me to think the universe can be eternal while also holding that a closed system is destined to run down. Explain to me how these aren't contradictory if I'm really messed up here...

Posted by: Michael S. Tutwiler Mar 2 2005, 02:48 PM
QUOTE
Assuming the universe is eternal...


That's a mighty big assumption that most astronomers don't make.

They say that entropy and time both move "forward" from "time zero" (aka the Big Bang).

In fact, one need only look upward to see that the universe isn't eternal. The light and energy produced by stars and other stelar objects would have occupied all of the available visible space, making the universe a very unpleasant place to be at the moment.

By assuming that time and entropy started at a point, and continue to move forward (i.e. there was a time "zero", and the universe is expanding), we defeate the "white wash" universe paradox.

Stephen Hawking has mentioned this in at least one of his books, if anyone wants to look it up (I'm not sure which!). The later chapters of "A Brief History of Time" also outline the Entropy / Time arrow models.

I do agree that assuming an eternal universe leads to the paradox you stated, but I don't think many modern astronomers make that assumption. Many don't even try to explain what "caused" the big bang though...though the number of researchers studying the state of the very-young universe has been steadily growing.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 02:51 PM
Well, first of all, are we talking about evolution or are we talking about the origins of the universe. Here we go slipping back and forth between evolution and godlessness. These are two principles I accept for two very different reasons. They are not the same thing.
My point is simply this: Evolution does not violate the second law of thermodynamics, whether a God exists or not.

As far as origins go, I'm not as knowledgable about cosmology as I am about biology, but I can honestly say that I simply don't know. I don't see how inserting God solves the problem of where we came from. If anything, it just compounds the problem.
When the inevitable question is asked, where did God come from and under what conditions God can even exist, what is usually offered is either assertions that God is timeless or that God created the laws of physics or excuses for why those questions don't need to be answered.

I reject it because there's nothing to support it. You guys are locked into this system where you just keep inserting God wherever there's something that we don't know. "How did we get here. I don't know. God did it." "Where did energy and matter come from? I don't know. Must be a God."

FUCK! THAT!

I don't know where the universe comes from. I don't know why there's something instead of nothing. And I don't know if or how the universe began.
That's the whole point. I don't know, and I refuse to insert easy answers whenever there's a difficult question.

Posted by: mrtruth Mar 2 2005, 02:59 PM
Call me crazy....but have we been seeing the same 3 arguments for the past month here?

(Pascal's wager, 2nd law of thermodynamics, God is obvious)

I haven't been reading here that long...and I still know how to refute these in my sleep....while taking a dump....while cooking a turkey dinner...or whatever!

Seriously...it makes me miss presupp arguments....

Posted by: Michael S. Tutwiler Mar 2 2005, 03:01 PM
Well said!

Evolution debates seem to slip into cosmological origins discussions every time thermodynamics is introduced.

That being said, I second your points.

Posted by: Bruce Mar 2 2005, 03:12 PM
QUOTE
Alternate science???? I am not the one trying to twist physics to accommodate my desired history of the world. Energy gets used up, that is fundamental and basic physics.

The car battery that was thrown at me is a GREAT example. It must be constantly charged by the alternator which is powered by the engine which relies on gasoline. When the engine runs out of gas it stops and the alternator then stops and the charging of the battery stops. Is there an endless supply of gas? Even if there were, would the battery, alternator, or engine last forever? The same can be said about this universe, it will eventually use itself up. The laws of physics dictate it.

Are you trying to say the sun is an endless supply of energy? I assume you do know that it is a big ball of fire. All fires eventually burn themselves out. Just as the Earth does not have an endless supply of oil, the sun does not have an endless supply of hydrogen.

Clinging to “closed systems” as your rescue is weak at best. Are you saying the laws of physics only apply to laboratory settings?

The BASIC laws of physics do not allow for eternal perpetual motion. Please give me your version of (alternate?) science that disputes that.

Fundamental physical laws do not allow for an eternal universe. If our universe is not eternal it must have had a beginning and consequently a Beginner.

In regards to showing God’s fingerprint, do you need flashlight to see the sun???


I agree to a degree. Eventually the sun will burn out and compress into a neutron star and all life on Earth will cease. Eventually, the energy and matter in the universe will equalize and all life will cease everywhere., as no more energy will be available to inject into sub-systems. If, as a Creationist, you insist that the Second Law of Thermodynamics prohibits evolution, then you are at the same time faced with problems in explaining how a snowflake forms, a baby gestates and how you are able to use the electronic computer to type your ridiculous mis-statements concerning physics.

QUOTE
Where is the evidence for evolution? There is no evidence; species simply and abruptly appear in the fossil record. Consider this from a prominent EVOLUTIONARYbiologist:


The fossil record is a record of the death of species, not the birth or life of species. Your argument is a nonsequitor, in that using it one can say that the population of humans throughout history is small, because we only have a small amount (perspectively) of the remains of the humans that have lived. It is extremely rare that a life form becomes fossilized, as most are consummed by other life forms and never are in the condition or position to become a fossil.

QUOTE
"The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution. (Gould, Stephen Jay [Professor of Zoology and Geology, Harvard University, USA], "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?," Paleobiology, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 1980, p.127).


You make a fundamental eroor in pasting quotes from creationist sites or publications. Like the deceitful frauds they are, the quotes are taken out of context , changed or incomplete. Why would a Good Christian ™ engage in this type of deciet? Here is the full quote:

QUOTE
In another publication, Gould described the lack of fossil evidence for serial change between major groups of organisms saying, "The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution" (Gould, Stephen Jay, "Is a new and general theory of evolution emerging?," Paleobiology, Vol. 6, No. 1, January 1980, p.127).


Notice that Gould was not saying evolutionary science is without foundation and has problems. He was saying that the gradualistic theory to explain the observed fact of evolution is inadequate. This is how science works, a theory is proposed and tested to determine if it can explain an observation. Gradualistic evolution, in this case, is not incorrect, it just does not provide a full theory or explanation to address the observed fact that life evolves. The purely gradualistic theory has been expanded to incoroprate punctuated equilibrium, which has further refined evolutionary theory and has been observed in the rapid mutations of pathological organisms. But don't let the truth of the matter bother you, keep lying for your God.

QUOTE
"The 'modern evolutionary synthesis' convinced most biologists that natural
selection was the only directive influence on adaptive evolution. Today, however,  dissatisfaction with the synthesis is widespread, and creationists and antidarwinians are multiplying. The central problem with the synthesis is its failure to show (or to provide distinct signs) that natural selection of random mutations could account for
observed levels of adaptation." (Leigh, Egbert G., Jr. [Biologist, Smithsonian Institution, USA], "The modern synthesis, Ronald Fisher and creationism," Trends in Ecology and Evolution, Vol. 14, No. 12, pp.495-498, December 1999).


Again, this is taken out of context. The "Modern Evolutionary Synthesis" was developed by two Christian scientists who were trying to integrate creationism (ID) and evolutionary biology. The critique igiven in the paper is against this inclusion of a "god of the gaps" explanation, simply because we do not have a completely adequate naturalistic theory yet. In short, again this is a clever way of lying used by the moral people of Jesus and in fact argues against their magical explanations, when read in context. See: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Modern-evolutionary-synthesis

Invictus, if you are going to claim to be a Christian, at least act like one...you know..the whole "Thou shalt not lie" part.


//Bruce//

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 2 2005, 03:13 PM
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 04:59 PM)
Alternate science???? I am not the one trying to twist physics to accommodate my desired history of the world. Energy gets used up, that is fundamental and basic physics.

Pot. Kettle. Black!

Need I refer you to my topic about angular unconformities? Or all those times I've repeatedly hawked the Apo-AIM mutation as proof that positive mutations do happen?

And what do I get? The same lies repeated over and over. I can't tell you how many times I've had creationists that I know in real life look me right in the face and tell me, without blinking, that there are no examples of positive mutations or that there are no missing links. Then I show them that they're wrong, and then without actually addressing my refutation, they just repeat it again!

I am sick and fucking tired of this! This shit that you read from AiG and Kent Hovind is wrong! These people do not do science. They sit around thumbing through scientific journals, looking for quotes they can abuse.

Lucy's knee... LIES! No positive mutations... LIES! No geologic column... LIES! DAMNED LIES!!!

Calling it "alternate science" was kind! I should have called it bullshit!

QUOTE
The car battery that was thrown at me is a GREAT example. It must be constantly charged by the alternator which is powered by the engine which relies on gasoline. When the engine runs out of gas it stops and the alternator then stops and the charging of the battery stops. Is there an endless supply of gas? Even if there were, would the battery, alternator, or engine last forever? The same can be said about this universe, it will eventually use itself up. The laws of physics dictate it.

WHAT THE FUCK!!!!

I'm not arguing that! Stop switching back and forth between cosmology and evolution. What I'm demonstrating to you is the evolution does not violate the second law of thermodynamics, then you switch over to this crap.
I'm not arguing that the universe is eternal. That's a completely different topic! That's cosmology.

Please stick to one topic.

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 2 2005, 03:16 PM
QUOTE (Mr. Neil @ Mar 2 2005, 11:13 PM)
I'm not arguing that! Stop switching back and forth between cosmology and evolution. What I'm demonstrating to you is the evolution does not violate the second law of thermodynamics, then you switch over to this crap.
I'm not arguing that the universe is eternal. That's a completely different topic! That's cosmology.

Please stick to one topic.

*somewhere, in the back of MG's mind a tiny light flicks on*

Posted by: FlybyStardancer Mar 2 2005, 03:27 PM
QUOTE (Mad_Gerbil @ Mar 2 2005, 05:38 PM)
...it just seems silly to me to think the universe can be eternal while also holding that a closed system is destined to run down. Explain to me how these aren't contradictory if I'm really messed up here...

It's simple. The universe is not eternal and will eventually run down and collapse on itself due to too much entropy and gravity.

And here I could start parroting our lectures on Big Bang and the origin of matter from my 1st semester Chemistry class...I could do an especially well job of it if I could find my Chem110 notebook... And my text book only seems to have info on the formation of it, where as we went beyond that in class.

Posted by: Jayrok Mar 2 2005, 03:29 PM
In the midst of creationism/evolution debates, I often wonder if evolution is not true, then why would God allow so many apparent evidences for evolution to exist in the first place?

If evolution did not happen, think of all the countless ways God could have prevented it from even getting off the ground as a scientific theory..

If a supernatural creator did use billions of years of evolution to allow creation, then it is obvious that the God of the christian bible is not that creator, since that book claims the earth is under 10,000 years old.. Certainly a deity that created this world would not endorse such a book filled with lies..

Maybe God created the world in 6 days, then planted all this evidence for billions of years of evolution as a big joke for his party guests.. I can hear him now.. "Look at all those idiots arguing about how the world came to be".

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 2 2005, 04:00 PM
QUOTE (Jayrok @ Mar 2 2005, 11:29 PM)
In the midst of creationism/evolution debates, I often wonder if evolution is not true, then why would God allow so many apparent evidences for evolution to exist in the first place?

If evolution did not happen, think of all the countless ways God could have prevented it from even getting off the ground as a scientific theory..

If a supernatural creator did use billions of years of evolution to allow creation, then it is obvious that the God of the christian bible is not that creator, since that book claims the earth is under 10,000 years old.. Certainly a deity that created this world would not endorse such a book filled with lies..

Maybe God created the world in 6 days, then planted all this evidence for billions of years of evolution as a big joke for his party guests.. I can hear him now.. "Look at all those idiots arguing about how the world came to be".

I've a hard time imagining how the earth could be created in a way that those wishing to mis-attribute the source would be incapable of formulating a mythos that would make such mis-attribution possible.

Posted by: CRCampbell Mar 3 2005, 08:33 PM
QUOTE (Mad_Gerbil @ Mar 2 2005, 07:00 PM)


QUOTE (Gerbil)

I've a hard time imagining how the earth could be created in a way that those wishing to mis-attribute the source would be incapable of formulating a mythos that would make such mis-attribution possible.

Could you re-word the question for clarity please? It's kind of awkward.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 4 2005, 11:57 AM
QUOTE (Mr. Neil @ Mar 2 2005, 09:11 AM)
QUOTE (invictus1967 @ Mar 2 2005, 10:49 AM)
The probability of the chance formation of a hypothetical functional simple cell, given all the ingredients (which is a BIG given), is acknowledged to be worse than 1 in 10^57800.

That is a probability of 1 in a number with 57800 zeroes. It would take 11 full pages of magazine type to print that number.

Everyone repeat after me...

This is only an important statistic if life popped into existence in a single event.

You completely ignore theories of process, where simple structures becomes more complex through processes. I'm tired of creationists treating these things as if life just popped up off of a rock and then reporting "the odds" as if they're fucking C-3P0 or something.

"But, sir! The possibility of life forming from non-life is approximately 10^57800 to 1!"


But Neil, that is how they think. They think life did just pop into existence and those are the odds that god had going for him. They're not our odds. They are really odd aren't they? GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 4 2005, 12:14 PM
Yeah, I know that's how they think, and that's the problem. They have to distort the real facts into lies and then argue against the lies. They think the birth of life, they think it happened instantaneously.

Non-life -> *poit!* -> LIFE!

But that's not what scientists think at all. That's why Hovind's "evolved from a rock" quote pisses me off, because he's deliberately oversimplifying abiogenesis to the point where it sounds ridiculous. Of course the starting point was rock, but we didn't literally evolve from rocks. The actual theory of abiogenesis has many more steps than that. I wish more creationists would at least take the time to learn about what they're criticising.
Invictus doesn't even know if he wants to argue evolution or cosmology. And I'm sorry, I'll argue one or the other, but I'm not going to argue both. I like to tackle one issue at a time. If we keep jumping around all over the place, then I have a more difficult time conveying my argument.

Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Mar 4 2005, 12:21 PM
QUOTE (Mr. Neil @ Mar 4 2005, 12:14 PM)
Yeah, I know that's how they think, and that's the problem. They have to distort the real facts into lies and then argue against the lies. They think the birth of life, they think it happened instantaneously.

Non-life -> *poit!* -> LIFE!

But that's not what scientists think at all. That's why Hovind's "evolved from a rock" quote pisses me off, because he's deliberately oversimplifying abiogenesis to the point where it sounds ridiculous. Of course the starting point was rock, but we didn't literally evolve from rocks. The actual theory of abiogenesis has many more steps than that. I wish more creationists would at least take the time to learn about what they're criticising.
Invictus doesn't even know if he wants to argue evolution or cosmology. And I'm sorry, I'll argue one or the other, but I'm not going to argue both. I like to tackle one issue at a time. If we keep jumping around all over the place, then I have a more difficult time conveying my argument.

You know, I was just thinking that they must think the only time that entropy did not apply was at the begining of all life. (I'm trying to think like them, so bear with me...) Because, a child grows in the womb from a single cell to a person because of the energy it receives from the mother. Kill the mother and the child dies...no energy source. Oh, I give up...I can't do it. Even the first cell would have outside energy to support it.

What the hell are they trying to prove?

Posted by: Messi Mar 4 2005, 12:35 PM
I'm asking curiously. Is Origen the last truly original Xtian for a long time? Who were the first Xtian scoffer? Who were the first really verifed early Xtian?
Messchird demands to know!

Posted by: Bruce Mar 4 2005, 12:56 PM
Origen is the earliest Christian apologist that there are records of, if one discounts the epistles on the NT as apologies (since they are now considered scripture). The earliest pagan skeptic of Christianity that we have detailed records of his arguments is Celsus, of which Origen wrote his rebuttal "Contra Celsum" and quoted almost all of Celsus' book in it. There are other extant records of other scoffers, but none of these are in the form of detailed, systematic arguments, Celsus is the earliest for that.

//Bruce//

Posted by: mrtruth Mar 4 2005, 01:17 PM
Mr Neil, are you quoting "Pinky" with your POIT!?

If not...ignore me. wicked.gif

Posted by: Madame M Mar 4 2005, 02:12 PM
QUOTE
That's why Hovind's "evolved from a rock" quote pisses me off,

(snip)
Of course the starting point was rock, but we didn't literally evolve from rocks.

Well, maybe Hovind did. Except I do not think he has evolved much from his origin. LOL!

Posted by: Mad_Gerbil Mar 4 2005, 02:17 PM
QUOTE (CRCampbell @ Mar 4 2005, 04:33 AM)
QUOTE (Mad_Gerbil @ Mar 2 2005, 07:00 PM)


QUOTE (Gerbil)

I've a hard time imagining how the earth could be created in a way that those wishing to mis-attribute the source would be incapable of formulating a mythos that would make such mis-attribution possible.

Could you re-word the question for clarity please? It's kind of awkward.

How could the world have been created as to make a lie about it's origin impossible?

Posted by: Messi Mar 4 2005, 04:51 PM
Maybe yes, Origen is the EARLIEST but I think there's a Xtian who lived earlier: Clement of Alexandaria. It is verifed that he wrote a letter in 190AD but not further than that. Maybe Clement was really was the first Xtian.
Prove me wrong if ya can but I reckon, it's true.

Posted by: Mr. Neil Mar 4 2005, 04:54 PM
QUOTE (mrtruth @ Mar 4 2005, 04:17 PM)
Mr Neil, are you quoting "Pinky" with your POIT!?

If not...ignore me. wicked.gif

Sort of. "Poit" is just my favorite spontaneous generation noise.

Posted by: Clergicide Mar 4 2005, 05:23 PM
QUOTE (Bruce @ Mar 4 2005, 03:56 PM)
Origen is the earliest Christian apologist that there are records of, if one discounts the epistles on the NT as apologies (since they are now considered scripture). The earliest pagan skeptic of Christianity that we have detailed records of his arguments is Celsus, of which Origen wrote his rebuttal "Contra Celsum" and quoted almost all of Celsus' book in it. There are other extant records of other scoffers, but none of these are in the form of detailed, systematic arguments, Celsus is the earliest for that.

//Bruce//

"Celsus On the True Doctrine: A Discourse Against the Christians" Is the reconstruction of Celsus' original argument from the citation in Origen's "Contra Celsum". It's a good read. It illustrates that even around 170AD intelligent men were launching the same arguments that exist today against the Christians.


QUOTE
I doubt very much that any really intelligent man believes these doctrines of the Christians, for to believe them would require one to ignore the sort of unintelligent and uneducated people who are persuaded by it.  And how can one overlook the fact that Christian teachers are only happy with stupid pupils--indeed they scout about for the slow-witted.
    A teacher of the Christian faith is a charlatan who promises to restore sick bodies to health, but discourages his patients from seeing a first-class physician with a real remedy for fear superior skill and training will show him up.  Thus the Christian teachers warn, "Keep away from physicians." And to the scum that constitutes their assemblies, the say "Make sure none of you ever obtains knowledge, for too much learning is a dangerous thing: knowledge is a disease for the soul, and the soul that aquires knowledge will perish."
      Your teacher acts like a drunkard who enters a saloon and accuses the customers of being drunk--a blind man who preaches to nearsighted men that they have deffective eyesight.  I bring these accusations against the Christians and could bring many more.
Celsus On the True Doctrine pg. 75

Posted by: Messi Mar 4 2005, 05:32 PM
Wendytwitch.gif Celsus did this? I thought people in 170 AD was phililstines.
ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! Our arguements came from Celsus?
But was there real apologists in 170AD? That'd be useful in detrimining the origin of Xtianity....

Posted by: Bruce Mar 4 2005, 06:29 PM
QUOTE (Messchird @ Mar 4 2005, 07:51 PM)
Maybe yes, Origen is the EARLIEST but I think there's a Xtian who lived earlier: Clement of Alexandaria. It is verifed that he wrote a letter in 190AD but not further than that. Maybe Clement was really was the first Xtian.
Prove me wrong if ya can but I reckon, it's true.

Ok Messchird,

If you want the name of the first verifiable Christian, it would have to be Saul of Tarsus, whose authentic epistles are even accepted by non-christians to have been written in the mid to late first century CE.

If we discount Paul, who is definitely a Christian, and the named Christians and congregations he wrote his epistle to at this time, there is a short list of known "first" Christians.

These church fathers/apologists that we have partial or complete knowledge of, were born in the 1st century CE and died in the 1st - 3rd century. I'll list them by their approximate bith date.


1. St. Ignatius of Antioch c. 50 - 98/117 CE - wrote early letters outline Christian theology. governance, etc. Some letters are considered authentic to some degree, some are considered completely spurius. Not an apologist refuting skeptics.

2. Polycarp 65 -155 CE - wrote letters dealing with internal Christian doctrine

3. Quadratus of Athens - mid 1st century - early 2nd century - Christian apologist made apology to Hadrian between 117 - 138 CE. No record of his work survives, may be spurious.

4. Aristides the Apologist - birth and death unknown. Purported to have delivered an apolgy at the same time as Quadratus. Work is lost, spurious novel written in the 7th century purports to quote from his apology.

5. Aristo of Pella - b. unknown - purported to have written apology around 140 CE. Work is lost, but referenced in Celsus' Critique of Christianity and in the rebuttal by Origen.

6. St. Justin the Martyr - 2nd century. Three of his work survive, Apology against Judaism and attempts to reconcile Hellenistic philosophy to Christianity and present a case for Christians being good citizens. Apology did not address .skeptical arguments.

7. Claudius Apollinaris - 2nd century. Reported apology against pagans and skeptics. No works survive.

8. Miltiades the Rhetorician - 2nd century. Works lost.

9. St. Theophilus - mid to late 2nd century. Only surviving writings compare Christianity to pagan beliefs. Does not address skeptics.

10. Melito, bishop of Sardis - mid to late 2nd century. argues for Christianity and Imperial Rome being partners. No works remain, except as quotes which may be spurious.

11. St. Irenaeus c. 130 - 202 CE, Bishop of Gaul (France) - partial works survive. Against Gnosticism.

12. Origen - late 2nd to mid 3rd century. Wrote extensively against skeptics and gnostics.

13. Clement of Alexandria - late 3nd to mid-3rd century - wrote extensively and focused mainly upon Christian doctrine and integration with Hellenism.


So, Messchird, I think that this proves Clement was not the first Christian. However, Origen is the first major apologist that we have works from, which directly deal with arguments formulated by skeptics.

//Bruce//

Posted by: Messi Mar 4 2005, 06:44 PM
Thanks, Bruce. So the same Saul who was blinded was the first Xtian?
So what about the first known skeptics apart from Celsus?
That'd be cool if you did know...

Posted by: Bruce Mar 4 2005, 06:51 PM
Celsus is the earliest known skeptic to specifically refute Christian mythology. There wer other skeptics, as this was a major school of Hellenistic philosophy, but no earlier known attacks upon Christian mythology are known.

Posted by: Conscious Entity Mar 4 2005, 09:26 PM
Invictus' last post stated, "Fundamental physical laws do not allow for an eternal universe. If our universe is not eternal it must have had a beginning and consequently a Beginner."

Whoa! Allowing that the universe is not eternal, and that it had to have a beginning (a kick-start if you will), how was it concluded that it had to have a "Beginner"?

If a finite universe is subject to certain physical laws, what laws apply to an eternal system, such as the afformentioned "Beginner"? One would theorize that this eternal "Beginner" could neither be created nor destroyed (thus eternal) and that it could effect non-eternal systems.

I'm not a physicist by any means, but I was taught that ENERGY can neither be created nor destroyed and that it can effect non-eternal systems. I also know that this ENERGY exists in our so-called finite universe.

Therefore, if this same "Beginner" and ENERGY share the same characteristics, and yet ENERGY exists in the finite universe, could it be that the finite universe does not need a "kick-start" from an outside "Begginer", but rather use the ENERGY already inherint in the physical, finite universe to "kick-start" itself?

Furthermore, if I understand E=MC^2, mass, or the known elements are just slow energy, and as mentioned above, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Energy can be transferred and change form, but it always exists.

Hmmm, a universe that creates itself? No, a universe that always existed: ENERGY can neither be created nor destroyed.

All I'm saying here, is that the known universe would not necessarily need an outside "Beginner" to get all the galaxies, solar systems, life, etc. started. The universe contains all the ENERGY it needs within itself.


Posted by: Clergicide Mar 4 2005, 10:20 PM
CE,

Check out Steven Hawkings "The Beginning of Time" for an educated answer to those questions. He IS a physicist.

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