| Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format |
| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Rants and Replies > I read the bible |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 9 2005, 05:18 PM |
| I read the bible for the last time. I worked my way through the New Testament during the last few weeks and I realised that my position in regards to religion had changed. I can now proudly say that I am completely tolerant towards religious people. This is something I have wanted to feel for a long time now. It does not bother me that people hold what I believe are silly beliefs equivalent to superstitions. If you really read the bible, especially Revelations, it’s hard not to laugh. If people really want to believe in talking animals and dragons that look like lions and all that stuff, let them. I have heard the arguments put forth by Christians- the watch analogy, the 99% knowledge, the eyes of the heart, the God of the gaps. Amazingly it’s not the ignorant fundies that come and with the accusations of never being a True Christian (which I wasn’t) or that we turned our backs because we are rebellious that turned me off Christianity, it’s people like Soil, Mad_Gerbil and my girlfriend that did the job. It’s people who I can tell see the problems but choose to ignore them. I realise that the average Christian does not see contradictions, absurdities or outright evil within the bible. However some do. The ones that do but blame humans for seeing these problems are the people who made the biggest impact on me. My best friend told me yesterday that he is no longer Catholic. He left the religion because of the things I said to him about a year ago. If he had left Catholicism a year ago I would have been very happy. Today, I feel no joy. I feel responsible, I feel guilt. Who am I to change someone’s ways? My friend has always been a happy person. I know that he will remain happy even though he is no longer Catholic but my point is that he was already happy being one. That said, I still believe it is important to fight against the mind virus religion. However I believe that the battle should be fought against the institutions trying to spread religion, not against certain individuals. One of the reasons I believe this is my dad. He is 53 years old. He has left religion over 30 years ago but he is still scared of hell. I have been asking myself lately, is it really worth deconverting someone only to have them feel this way? The people that I will still try to deconvert are Mormons and JW’s. I had a couple of Mormons who use to come to my house. It was a funny experience for me. They would start with a prayer and then say something along the lines of “Did you know that Jesus died for you”? That is when I would start speaking and would remain being the only speaker for about half an hour. I would point out to them all these about the bible and also the history of their own religion, which that had no answer for. The reason that I kept it up for so long is that one of the Mormons, sorry I mean Elders (The amount of times they asked me to call them Elder…) had come over from Chile. He told me that he would remain in Australia for two years and that he can only speak to his family twice a year. When he told me this, it broke my heart. I thought to myself how dare this stupid cult do this to a young boy. Sending him off like this, it’s wrong. He wasn’t even allowed to socialise with people outside of the house he lived in and he could not take days of or go sightseeing. It was very sad. Anyway, I hope that everyone keeps the passion that I lost. Religion is a lot of fun… If you don’t take it too seriously. Diego |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 9 2005, 05:21 PM |
| Having typed that so quickly I now realise that I should have read over it. I can see that it's all over the place. |
| Posted by: lalli Feb 9 2005, 06:20 PM |
| I think I understand what you mean. And don't worry about the disorganized nature of your post; your thoughts were still very coherent amongst the disarray. Why try to change a person when you run the risk of changing them for the worse? But how could you leave them be if what they are doing is hurting them? Why try to change a person when you could go for the source and change the institution? But how can you change an institution without starting with a single person? Why fight the people with whom you don't agree when you could simply live and let live? But how can you stand by when so many of those people are oppressing themselves and the people around them? No matter where you go, who you're with or what you do, you'll have an effect on everything around you. It's inevitable that sometimes you'll do more harm than good. Success is in finding the balance between inaction and action; knowing when to draw your sword and when to let go. And now I've waxed poetic for far too long. |
| Posted by: LloydDobler Feb 9 2005, 08:03 PM |
| Institutions don't change from the top down, they change from the inside out. The ONLY way (I believe) to change an institution is to change the people in it, one at a time. One on one contact is all we have anymore. If you try to change a group they gang up with mob mentality and dig in to their dogma. When you talk one on one you can reach a person. Christians have used these tactics to get people to believe for years. I'm not going to actively seek to deconvert people, but I can't keep my mouth shut if a friend asks what I think. Your post was totally coherent and I do think it's a positive thing to not feel a drive to change people. You can focus on yourself and what's important for you, and you're not going to go nuts worrying about what someone else thinks or doesn't think. |
| Posted by: Cerise Feb 9 2005, 08:21 PM |
| Have you ever read Conrad's Under Western Eyes? In the novel, Conrad discusses the possible dangers of ideas. The main character, Razumov says at one point, "What do you know of my ideas? My ideas may be poison to you." The idn't to say that Conrad though ideas were a bad thing. It is equally dangerous (maybe even more so) to have no ideas as it is to have one idea. But there are dangers in ideas in that they change people. And sometimes people would rather not be changed. The idea that there is no God is poisoness to some people. They cannot bear the thought, of what it would mean for them to live in a godless world. They would rather have the veil. It is often a hard thing, to become disillusioned. It is often painful. But I tell you I would rather be disillusioned and have a small grain of true, then keep my illusions and live a lie. |
| Posted by: Totallyatpeace Feb 9 2005, 08:38 PM |
| I believe our faith, or lack of a faith is a personal thing that is at the very core of who we are. I don't go around preaching at people or trying to change them. But if you ask me what I believe and you genuinly want to know, I'll take the time to tell you. I have a good friend who is a Buddhist, another one who is Agnostic and yet another one who is an Atheist. Of course down inside, I wish they could understand what I know to be true for me. But I know they feel as strongly about what they believe. Somehow, it has become a beautiful friendship and not a single one of them would try and pull me away from my faith. It's no secret that I am a Christian, but my signature is how I want to live my life. I also believe it's the way Christ taught us to live. The church is what has done damage to Christianity. Just my POV~ TAP |
| Posted by: Brother Jeff Feb 9 2005, 10:17 PM |
| Excellent post, Brother Lucifer! I have mixed feelings about trying to deconvert people. I strongly believe that people should have the freedom to believe as they choose, but at the same time I strongly believe that religious fundamentalism and the ignorance, bigotry, and intolerance it stands for must be vocally opposed. My website is my vocal opposition. It's fine with me if religious people want to believe comfortable mythological bullshit privately, but it's not okay with me if religious people want to impose their bullshit beliefs on me, legislate their ignorant, bigoted and intolerant religious beliefs into law, or replace science with their absurd, ignorance-laden religious pseudoscience in our schools. I will oppose any such efforts vocally and loudly. In my personal daily life, I don't discuss religion unless I'm asked about it. But, if the subject comes up, I will be happy to tell anyone why I don't believe in god or in the Christian religion. I'm sorry to hear about your Dad's fear of hell, but I certainly understand it because I go through it sometimes, too. I'm sure your Dad knows intellectually that there isn't a hell and he probably realizes that it is a morally reprehensible concept as well. It's just years of religious brainwashing and indoctrination that still has a hold on him. Brother Ed Babinski sent these quotes about Hell to me a while back, and reading them helps me a lot: God recently remodeled hell. He replaced the flames of eternal damnation with a microwave. Now, instead of taking forever, His revenge is complete in seconds. (The only hard part is hanging on while the plate rotates.) - E.T.B. ____________________________ According to Christianity eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love. That's the message we're brought up with, believe or die. "Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options." - Bill Hicks, Rant in E-minor, CD ____________________________ As a tot I was given the usual terrifying mixed message: a) God is love; and  If you don't believe how much he loves you, you will stand in thecorner for eternity. - James Lileks, "God Has Call Waiting," Notes of a Nervous Man ____________________________ God says do what you wish, but make the wrong choice and you will be tortured for eternity in hell. That's not free will. It's like a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says this we call him a psychopath. When god says the same we call him "loving" and build churches in his honor. - William C. Easttom II ____________________________ I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being. - Dan Barker, Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist ____________________________ Any religion that teaches there is only heaven or hell is gonna be a haven for manic-depressives. - E.T.B. ____________________________ I'm a universalist because I believe that God and time are the best teachers, and there's plenty of time in eternity for everyone to learn their lessons, including Ghengiz Khan, Adolf Hitler, and the makers of Jolt Cola. - E.T.B. ____________________________ Some conservative Christians argue in favor of hell by calling it "God's great compliment." I'd like to ask such people what God does when he wants to insult somebody. - E.T.B. ____________________________ It is strange to me that people can consign others to hell without a scruple. One only has to remember a toothache, not to wish it eternally on anyone. - Lucy Daugalis (daugalis@arcom.com.au) ____________________________ ...love and pity for hell's occupants will not enter our hearts. - J. I. Packer, "Hell's Final Enigma," Christianity Today, April 22, 2002 (Mr. Packer is an executive director of Christianity Today, and professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver.) ____________________________ When all has been considered, it seems to me to be the irresistible intuition that infinite punishment for finite sin would be unjust, and therefore wrong. We feel that even weak and erring Man would shrink from such an act. And we cannot conceive of God as acting on a lower standard of right and wrong. - Lewis Carroll (author of Alice in Wonderland), "Eternal Punishment," Diversions and Digressions of Lewis Carroll ____________________________ I read in the Gospels that Jesus forgave the men who nailed him to the cross. He even promised "this day you shall be with me in paradise" to a thief crucified next to him -- a thief who addressed Jesus simply as a "man" rather than as "the son of God." Yet, today, this same Jesus cannot forgive my kindly old aunt and allow her to dwell in paradise, simply because her "beliefs" do not match Reverend So-and-So's? - Arthur Silver ____________________________ They say that when god was in Jerusalem he forgave his murderers, but now he will not forgive an honest man for differing with him on the subject of the Trinity. They say that God says to me, "Forgive your enemies." I say, "I do;" but he says, "I will damn mine." God should be consistent. If he wants me to forgive my enemies he should forgive his. I am asked to forgive enemies who can hurt me. God is only asked to forgive enemies who cannot hurt him. He certainly ought to be as generous as he asks us to be. - Robert Ingersoll ____________________________ There are in fact so many strong Biblical, doctrinal, and logical arguments against the existence of a literal hell that this question naturally arises: Why do the churches teach it and why do people often believe it?...The churches tend to believe that fear, rather than love conquers all. - Robert Short, Methodist clergyman, U.S. Catholic, April 1980 ____________________________ Given headaches, backaches, toothaches, strains, scrapes, breaks, cuts, rashes, burns, bruises, PMS, fatigue, hunger, odors, molds, colds, yeast, parasites, viruses, cancers, genetic defects, blindness, deafness, paralysis, mental illness, ugliness, ignorance, miscommunications, embarrassments, unrequited love, dashed hopes, boredom, hard labor, repetitious labor, accidents, old age, senility, fires, floods, earthquakes, typhoons, tornadoes, hurricanes and volcanoes, I can not see how anyone, after they're dead, deserves eternal punishment as well. - E.T.B. ____________________________ When I was a boy I heard tell of an old farmer in Vermont. He was dying. The minister was at his bedside -- asked him if he was a Christian, if he was prepared to die. The old man answered that he had made no preparation, that he was not a Christian, that he had never done anything but work. The preacher said that he could give him no hope unless he had faith in Christ, and that if he had no faith his soul would certainly be lost. The old man was not frightened. He was perfectly calm. In a weak and broken voice he said, "Mr. Preacher, I suppose you noticed my farm. My wife and I came here more than fifty years ago. We were just married. It was a forest then and the land was covered with stones. I cut down the trees, burned the logs, picked up the stones, and laid the walls. My wife spun and wove and worked every moment. We raised and educated our children -- denied ourselves. During all these years my wife never had a good dress, or a decent bonnet. I never had a good suit of clothes. We lived on the plainest food. Our hands, our bodies are deformed by toil. We never had a vacation. We loved each other and the children. That is the only luxury we ever had. Now I am about to die and you ask me if I am prepared. Mr. Preacher, I have no fear of the future, no terror of any other world. There may be such a place as hell -- but if there is, you never can make me believe that it's any worse than old Vermont." - Robert Ingersoll, "Why I Am An Agnostic" ____________________________ An idea, which has terrified millions, claims that some of us will go to a place called Hell, where we will suffer eternal torture. This does not scare me because, when I try to imagine a Mind behind this universe, I cannot conceive that Mind, usually called "God," as totally mad. I mean, guys, compare that "God" with the worst monsters you can think of -- Adolph Hitler, Joe Stalin, that sort of guy. None of them ever inflicted more than finite pain on their victims. Even de Sade, in his sado-masochistic fantasy novels, never devised an unlimited torture. The idea that the Mind of Creation (if such exists) wants to torture some of its critters for endless infinities of infinities seems too absurd to take seriously. Such a deranged Mind could not create a mud hut, much less the exquisitely mathematical universe around us. If such a monster-God did exist, the sane attitude would consist of practicing the Buddhist virtue of compassion. Don't give way to hatred: try to understand and forgive him. Maybe He will recover his wits some day. - Robert Anton Wilson, "Cheerful Reflections on Death and Dying," Gnoware, February 1999 ____________________________ Primates often have trouble imagining a universe not run by an angry alpha male. - Source unknown ____________________________ Any infinite Being who feels it is their duty to torture me for eternity, should switch to decaf. - E.T.B. |
| Posted by: Rameus Feb 9 2005, 11:00 PM |
| I think there is a common misconception in the world today. There is a belief that an individual’s ideas do not affect others. From an anthropological perspective I would say that is simply not the case. Humans are cultural beasts. Our actions are largely determined by our interactions with our environments, and by the ideas we construct for ourselves. This applies on a cultural level, and also on an individual level to some extent. Roleplay Mode: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - You are Xochi, a native of 15th century Mesoamerica. You live in a small rural village on the outskirts of the Aztec empire, with your wife Huantlee and your three wonderful children. You wake up one beautiful September morning, and after making love to your wife you go outside to discover an Aztec emissary conversing with the members of your local calpul. The Aztecs have run out of war captives to sacrifice to the god Huitzilopochtli, and although your village has always been a loyal subject to Aztec rule, they have decided that in one week’s time they will return with an army and attack your village for the sole purpose of procuring new sacrificial victims for their religious rites. One week later they return, provide the warriors of your village with weapons, and proceed to wage war upon your people. You and the other warriors are captured and brought back to Tenochtitlan; your wife and children crying and wailing as they watch you being taken away. The priests, some of which are dressed in the flayed skins of other human beings, a few of which you recognize, lead you up a tall platform, cut your heart out and bathe the altar in your blood. Your last conscious thought was for your beautiful wife and children back home; a home you will never see again. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Xochi was an innocent victim of the Flower Wars, which were a direct result of the Aztec's religious beliefs. The Aztecs believed themselves to be the "chosen people" of Huitzilopochtli. Huitzilopochtli could be an angry god, and as such the Aztecs did everything they could to placate him to avert his wrath. What Huitzilopochtli wanted most of all was human sacrifices, but not just any human sacrifices, they had to be humans captured in battle. When the Aztecs ran out of enemies to attack, they literally had to attack towns and regions that were already under their rule, simply to satisfy their religious beliefs. Xochi was a happy farmer, with a beautiful wife and three children. He tended his crops, made love to his wife, taught his children to be moral human beings and respect the beliefs of others. Xochi didn't have any dangerous religious beliefs, but his neighbors did; and he died because of them. His wife became a widow, and his children were fatherless, all because of an idea that another group held as sacred. People tell me all the time that religions don't kill people, people kill people. People tell me all the time that people should believe whatever they want to believe, and no matter how insane that belief might seem to you, its not your place to try and change the world. After reading poor Xochi's tale (which is fictitious but based on events that did transpire in 15th century Mesoamerica) does anyone want to tell me that we should just bury our heads in the sand and not worry about the fact that religious fundamentalism is on the rise again in the world? Rameus |
| Posted by: MalaInSe Feb 9 2005, 11:33 PM | ||
I'm with you. Y'know, Rameus, for about the millionth time this month, my husband told me that I have become intolerant. Intolerant? Well, what is it that I should tolerate? One's religious belief is a choice. It's not a race, a gender, or even a sexual orientation. It's a decision to adopt a particular philosophy by which one should run one's life. I believe that these philosophies should be examined on their own before we determine if we should be "tolerant." My husband calls me intolerant only because religion is a "sacred cow," if I may be reflexive. It shouldn't be, as it's a matter of choice, not predetermination. Christianity has at it's very basis the concept of intolerance in that it finds humanity to be inherently sinful. I'm reminded of the Homer Simpson approach to the avoidance of jury duty: "Tell them you're prejudiced against all people." In practice, Christianity has been used to justify invasions, slavery, oppression of women, and the murder of millions of people. It engenders a sense of superiority in the person practicing, as only they are worthy of God's favor. After all, everyone else is going to hell. Don't tell me your faith doesn't stand for that, that those people were not "true Christians." Two thousand years of practice tells me otherwise. Yes, some Christians are nice people. I shouldn't paint with so wide a brush. However, as I'm of Western European descent, neo-Nazis are quite nice to me as well. Is that reason enough to be tolerant of neo-Nazism? It's not, and I'm sick unto death of being criticized for being "intolerant" of an inherently intolerant group of people who have adopted a faith that carries with it an extensive history of genocide and bloodshed. I'm expected to turn a blind eye to these people who set logic aside and attempt to dictate how my child learns science. I'm supposed to be polite when they walk up to me uninvited and tell me I'm going to hell because they're right and I'm wrong. Yes, I am fucking intolerant. As a reasonable person should be. Renee |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 10 2005, 01:35 AM | ||
| When some of my fellow Homosapiens insist that they have a God inspired book that everyone must live by or be forever separated from God they are advocating/perpetuating chauvinism, bigotry, and slander of their own fellow human beings self worth and beliefs. In some cases bible worship causes violence and suicides. My cousin became a junky and alcholic and a few years later commited suicide. He was a gay man who was very effeminate and was fucked with by his family and people in our community ALL HIS LIFE. He died at age 29. He was a good and decent man. Junky or not.
Because of these passages people will continue to believe the bible is the word of God. Xian's cherry pick the bible. The hateful bigoted xians love the O.T. I wonder were they got the notion that they can cherry pick the O.T. laws? Scripture maybe? Christian dogma changes. Who knows what the xian dogma of the future will be? Politics and Religion can be a leathal mix. The liberal Christian may say "We are not responsible for those xians." But in reality they are because they perpetuate the belief that the bible is the word of God. What makes that book so dangerous is the good examples and bad examples in combination with the ambiguous and contradictory philosophy within. That’s why you have good christians as well as bad christians. The inherent evil is insidious as the evil is often ignored; swept under the rug, because of the deeds of the good or tolerant denominations. Jesus leaves wiggle room for evil people to do their thing. This business of salvation based on belief instead of good works is evil. Threats (Hell) and bribes (Heaven), that ensure obedience from the masses is anti-human. A politicians wet dream. X'ers do what the bible says and encourage others to follow it to the letter, but they can break the rules, especially if it eliminates "evil". "Jesus will forgive me." For some, salvation only requires belief and not good works or responsible behavior. Contradictions remember? The bible has something for almost all tastes. It will always be a potential threat to humanity. Missionaries make spiritual prostitutes out of disenfranchised peoples over seas. Is it moral to make spiritual/mental prostitutes out of nonbelievers or should cultures just evolve because people actually like and choose aspects of different cultures and religions? Isn’t it a moral thing to let cultures evolve through choice instead of through christians preying on the hungry? Missionaries do some sick shit over seas sometimes, and people get killed over it. Those Books should not be considered the word of God, and if religion is exposed as mythology then so be it. Even I realize this and I am an 8th grade drop out getting his GED. I have lived in a fundy community all my life. Arent we entitled to a life free from religious morality? Persecution? Soft Persecution? Is it wrong to want something better? Is it wrong to change peoples minds about thier religions when it is a fact that a lot of misery and destruction have come from bible worship? Does the world belong to Jesus/Alah? Should it belong to them? |
| Posted by: ficino Feb 10 2005, 03:06 AM |
| Dear IAL - like you I'm willing to let people find their own way. I disagree though about the Bible's being something that we can essentially chuckle at. I do not at all see Revelation as something to laugh over. The last time I read it straight through I had to force myself to finish it. The whole thing reeks of hatred and resentment. I was left with the impression that it was written by the sort of person who was the most picked-n kid in the 8th grade. But certainly the writer's sense of resentful victimization and self-justification came from other causes - like feeling that people of his religion were picked on by Romans and who knows who else and therefore getting off on imagining how the big-dick deity in the sky will fuck over his enemies really, really harshly. Forever. Spread that mentality among a whole group and open up political power to them and then you've got the history of persecutions that we've had. (Not that Christianity is unique in persecuting - they did a hell of a better job than pagans at that, though). |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 10 2005, 03:28 AM |
| I really appreciate everyone's reply. I have to admit though, I didn't expect my spontaneous rant to get much of a response. I am short of time today and probably will be most of tomorrow but I would like to say thank you and that I will get back to those of you who took your time to read through my post and reply. |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 03:48 AM | ||
I think I understand where you are coming from, Diego. Some people have more of a temperment that is disposed to taking up arms and confronting the evils they find; others don't have a sustainable passion for the fight. I don't want to judge those conscientious objectors too harshly as they have their reasons but to influence one person at a time is to stay in the fight, indeed. And don't forget, there is some R & R (Rest and Recreation) for the soldiers when they come out of battle.  |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 04:01 AM | ||||||
TAP, your philosophy reminds me of the Christian I tried to be. These are higher principles you have chosen to live by and I daresay that you would have culled these from other sources had you not been exposed to Christianity. I think that that's how you are, at the core of you.
I think Christianity is flawed, Paul defaced it and the Church has destroyed whatever fragments might have been worth keeping (locked in a museum, no less). Nevertheless, artifacts of antiquity are worth studying for what we can learn from them. |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 04:34 AM | ||
I agree, Rameus. Worry can drive one to work. Growing up in a family with eight siblings, in teaching her children about rights and responsibilities and the necessity of boundaries, my mother often quoted her deceased father, "Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins." The problem with religious fundamentalism and fanaticism is that its swinging fist bloodies the noses of the victims, bashes in their faces, breaks their jaws and bruises their minds, oftimes to the very point of incapacitation. We ought not be afraid to continue the fight against a very real enemy and religious fundamentalism is a very real enemy whose arm needs to be cut off, and if we cannot cut it off entirely, we ought to shred it of its very muscles, down to the bone. |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 04:49 AM | ||
I feel the same way, Ren. When I'm accused of intolerance, I normally say, "Thank you. I make quite an effort at being so." I call it discriminating and I think it most wise that we learn to exercise our rational minds in developing our gifts of discrimination. That is one of the lessons I have been trying to teach my children since they were toddlers. Let's face it; one major reason we got caught in the web of Christianity in the first place, for those of us who did, is due to the fact that we were not discriminating enough to begin with. We were tolerant, too tolerant. In this context, I think gullible is a good synonym for tolerant. |
| Posted by: Lokmer Feb 10 2005, 04:55 AM | ||||
Indeed! It is indeed tragic that such a word as "tolerance" is so employed. The deliberately intolerant, discriminating person is far more capable of courtesy, mercy, and patience than is the casual "tolerant" person. Tolerating someone, or something, is "putting up with them." Although I am a big believer in courtesy towards humans, I refuse to put up with idiots. I prefer to make fools suffer, rather than suffering fools. Likewise for foolish ideas. Discrimination and thoughfulness at all times, courtesy as well. Never tolerance or unthinking acceptance. -Lokmer the militant |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 05:19 AM | ||
Damn good thinking here, my friend! It would be great for you to write an essay on ethics. You have some great insights and the way you frame your sentences and turn a phrase is inspiring. Regardless of the level of formal "education" you completed... I'm very sorry about your cousin, Euthyphro. I had a struggle with heroin in my youth. I understand that addiction. I think we have a responsibility to avail ourselves of every oportunity to work within our realm of influence to educate others. And the thing is, we can all do that much. |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 05:28 AM | ||
Based upon my opinion, naturally, I'd answer your questions thusly: 1.) One illusion at a time. 2.) By trying to change peoples' minds with education where you are the teacher. 3.) Deconversion is the answer. 4.) I'm not aware of fundamentalists playing nice either. |
| Posted by: Rameus Feb 10 2005, 05:48 AM | ||||||||
(by malainse)
It's absurd isn't it Mala? The Christians, particularly the evangelicals are pushing hard to initiate large scale social changes in America and in the world. Then when we criticize them for their religious views (which translate directly into political actions) we are called intolerant. Fundamentalist Christians have been trying to shape the world for 75 human generations; it continues to this day. Yet somehow most people succumb to the popular American cultural belief that we should allow ourselves to be evangelized, but to return the favor to the fundamentalists is off limits. To put it bluntly, fuck that. When Christianity and Islam stop preaching to convert the masses, then so will I. But that's never going to happen because ever since the moment that Mark 16:9-20 was forged, preaching the truth to the world has been a vital part of their deranged belief. (by Euthphro)
I honestly believe it started with the conversion of the gentiles. Circumcision and the Jewish diet were probably the first to go in order to glean non-Jewish converts. That's the impression I get from reading the New Testament documents anyway. (by Ehtuphro)
I've been reading about the Tsunami and missionaries, it's sickening. I remember when I first heard about the Tsunami while in Egypt. The first thing I thought of was that those poor people in the Indian Ocean region were going to be subjected to thousands of missionaries. Why can't these people just go and help without trying to culturally assassinate? China suppresses missionaries, and although it may seem draconian to some it really is the only way to ensure that the bastards don't get a toe hold in your civilization. As we all know, once they infect a small area they spread, and spread, and spread. When I hear about missionaries dying on the news, I can honestly say I feel absolutely no pity. Sadly these people think they are doing good in the world. (by Reach)
I grapple with this issue on occasion. The problem I have is that if we reduce Christianity and Islam to merely the liberal elements, then we still have to deal with the firebrand preachers and religious revivals that history shows us have always occurred, and likely will continue to occur in the future. We might tame the beast only to have it get rabies again in the near future. That's why I think the three systems (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) need to be discarded entirely. Rameus |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 06:02 AM | ||
Agreed. Unfortunately, most structures have to be dismantled one brick at a time so it behooves us to work where we are most effective. I believe that words are the most important weapons we have at our disposal at this time. I wish these three systems would simply implode on themselves but I don't see it happening any time soon. And as I mentioned, anyone who is tired of the fight is free to take some R & R, but be warned; there may be another bathing Bathsheba beauty out there. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 10 2005, 06:12 AM | ||||
When I was getting clean in jail I had a lot of time to read. My sponsor is a freethinker as well. Logic and a little philosophy was a part of my indoctrination in his brand of N.A. heh. But I'm still learning from him. I lost faith in xianity long before I met him though. So here I am, workin my way up to college level. I plan on being a Chemical Dependancy Councelor. I want to work with teens. And yea I'd say I'm very bitter about my cousin. He was a good guy. I miss him.
I couldn't agree more. I am still ignorant. And I can shoot my mouth off and all but I hope I don't piss people off so much that they wont answer my questions. I really do want to learn from folks here. Educating ignernt heathens is as important as educating the fundies in this battle. hehe. --Reason and Respect-- |
| Posted by: Brother Jeff Feb 10 2005, 08:44 AM | ||
Amen! O, AMEN! Preach it, Sister Reach! That's the TRUTH! Glory!  May I have your permission to quote you on my glorious site? |
| Posted by: Reach Feb 10 2005, 08:50 AM | ||||
 Why thank you, Brother Jeff!You may, indeed, use that quote if you will do me the honor of also posting some of your quotes from this thread (or some other favorites) right here: http://exchristian.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93&hl=quotes I'm much obliged to you, brother! Glory! Glory! Sister Reach |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 10 2005, 04:08 PM |
| I was going to reply to everyone individually but I am going to make a general reply instead. When I said that I was now completely tolerant to religious people I wasn't saying that everyone should feel the same. It's just that during the last two years I could not look at a religious person without rolling my eyes or thinking something in my head. Before this two year period, I really did not care what others believed and I wanted to feel that way again. I know I never will completely (I wish I had not read the bible that day). Being tolerant is something I needed because my girlfriend is Catholic and I didn't want to go every day thinking she was stupid. I think it made me a better person. That said I realise that the only reason I thought it was wrong to convert people was because I was worried about what would happen to my friend when others around him found about he left the religion. I was concerned for my friend but now I think I did him a favour. In my opinion, the non-religious are more happy and his attitude the last few months is proof. I realise that I could never completely turn away from debating. I was going to leave but I guess I'll be staying after all.  |
| Posted by: Rameus Feb 10 2005, 05:14 PM |
| Good to hear it IAL. Keep up the good fight and the world will one day be a better place. Rameus |
| Posted by: nivek Feb 11 2005, 07:58 AM |
| At some point folks, there are those of we who make decision(s) to walk away from it all, leave what was considered "the norm", tell those around us to lead, follow, or get the fuck out of the way. Far too many folks fear so much striking out on their own, leaving the ersatz comfort of assemblies, groups and social mores that they never find what they may have been looking for. Seen so many different people unhaoppy, unsatisfied, unfulfilled, looking at pills, doctors, professionals to aid them in their life. Many of same are followers of some stripe of daGoodeLard.. I've often wondered while I was doing my time in the fyndie ranks why I was unsetled, angry and solutionless... Seems to be a common human condition when Freeman dons chains that are handed to him, and as freely chained down. There are no motorcycles at psychiatrists offices When religion and its perpetual dammning caustic garbage is finally reduced to a *really personal level* item, rather than driving the nation and our society, things will have been made better. Until that time when Reason is Regent, it is incumbent for any Freethinker to be able to keep his or herself Free. It isn't just *big guns*, but a slip away from the various tits that gov dot org offers for us to hook into and continue dependency... Get economically and socially free as you might be. Live with a little less than you may be used to. Become mentally and more physically fit. Learn skills that while not *your thing* may be useful someday to others *if*. Continue to make your mind an open and learning place, able to teach your replacements what you know and think. Be well prepared to put your fist up to the jerk whose fist is aimed at your nose and stop that aggression.. Learn to ride a motorcyle, skip those visits to the "professionals" office.. ;) n, Freeman by choice |
| Posted by: Diogenes Feb 11 2005, 09:00 AM |
| Awesome post, Nivek. I do understand your moon language, and I find it not crazy, but rather sane. |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 11 2005, 01:17 PM | ||
QUOTE (Reach)
Some of the other posts in this forum section illustrate exactly why this is. We have one kid that can't handle even the most trivial decisions without first consulting his Christ-O-Meter..his life is just that devoid of any other meaning, that every aspect of his life is consumed by the persuit of a lie. I see him as a shell of a person, nothing more than a human-looking electronic pocket bible. Then we have the post about one woman who explodes on one of her co-workers and, though later she knows she was wrong, she apologizes for satan's outburst through her. Neither of these people are capable of accepting personal responsibility for their lives. If you want to use such a broad term as 'life' to describe..they eat, they breath, they shit(concentrated evil comes out the back of them), but that's the extent of it. As far as they're concerned, their social interactions and decision making is based entirely on which of the two forces, good and evil, happen to be at play that day. It's no stretch to say that once you become a 'true' believer, you enter a state of mental death. Then before the 'Jewiness' thread was closed, Rameus was quoting from members of God's army that are examining Revelations in attempt to make the prophecy fit present conditions. These sick bastards 'want' it to fit. They can't wait til armageddon. The other post was a 'rapture-ready' site, helping instruct good Xtians to be prepared for what will hopefully occur tomorrow. What kind of empty life do you lead when you are anxious to die, and for the world to end? It's not like this is a small cult movement, like Heaven's Gate. There's no shortage of these twisted fruitcakes. I'm sure in short time we could compile thousands of testemonies from these misguided cretins, that from their own mouths can't wait for the world to end, and will claim it will be the most glorious event ever. No one here can tell me honestly that those are thoughts and notions of someone in good mental health. The other problem I have with keeping silent on the issue has to do with this notion of 'hedging your bets'. I've seen packs of these jibbering-mouthers say "we'll if i'm right, I'm going to heaven..and if you're wrong you're going to hell. So I'll believe and at least have a shot at salvation." I say this to any of you that think this way. If you're wrong, Sparky, and we only get one run at this wild circus called life, you've wasted yours chasing a lie. Instead of being out living your life, and figuring out how to spend your time doing things that truly make you happy, you spent that precious time in church being brainwashed, and trying to appease someone that isn't even there. Getting back to lacking personal responsibility... The outlooks expressed in those other threads is evidence enough why morality should be taught 'for the sake of being moral', and not to appease a sky-daddy. Abstractifying it has these Christards firmly believing any bad they do or harm they cause is the fault the devil(a figment of their imaginations). But the crime rates in America are because of the devils influence, not because the Christian method for teaching morals is a resounding failure....ugh. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Feb 11 2005, 01:59 PM | ||
But what is a church without people? A building... Lucifer, Your post was great and I do understand what you are saying and agree. I would not want to change my mother's mind at all. She has relied on her belief many times in her life to help her jump over the hurdles. Of course, I know it was her own strength that accomplished the tasks, she doesn't. It's a placebo for the ones that need it. I just wish she could look back and say...wow, I did it didn't I? Instead of giving all the credit to something that doesn't exist. She did do it! |
| Posted by: Clergicide Feb 11 2005, 04:16 PM | ||
I think you should have the courage to look your mother square in the eyes, and tell her the truth. Why tiptoe around the issue? Do you feel Xtians extend that curtesy to the rest of us? Fuck no they don't! They show no mercy in their conversion tactics. If you're lying in your deathbed wallowing in a puddle of your own blood and piss, they'll be damned if they won't try to convert your ass. They will kick you no matter how down for the count you are, in fact they seek out prey of just that condition. They saw the tsunami as a godsend, opening the doors for missionary work. If you want to see change, you're going to have to accept that a certain level of aggression is in order. Xtians feel more than comfortable smashing their idiocy over the heads of their loved ones, or anyone else in view for that matter, so why should anyone be afraid to at least challenge them and make them think a little, and maybe even succeed in waking them up. Do you really want your mother to go to the grave suffering from these delusions? I watched my grandmother piss her life away on this shit, I'm not about to let it happen to anyone else I care about. I would only wish this sickness on my worst enemy. |
| Posted by: Euthyphro Feb 11 2005, 05:39 PM | ||||
Er... she could tell her mom about Deism? |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 11 2005, 10:09 PM | ||||
These are the reasons why i am so against religion. It's not just christianity. Ask a muslim why the Tsunami happened. Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone when I say this but christians are not all there upstairs. To believe in a religion for your whole life you are suspending logic, reasoning skills and common sense. It is easy for me to say it because I'm not religious but a conversation with the average christian is evidence of this. That is why I wanted to deconvert people all this time. However I have always been worried about deconverting the wrong person. There are people who have really bad lives, are lonely or have some other major problem in their life. I know this girl who I never spoke about religion with her. It was because she was so alone in life. Her parents had died, she had no family and practically no friends. Christianity was her escape and I knew that. I just worry that I will make someone's life worse. |
| Posted by: nivek Feb 11 2005, 10:16 PM |
| IAL.... You don't *de-convert* anyone.... Logic, Reason, Human Kindness begin to open up a world that is a step or two beyond what the person is used to. "Wow, I don't need all the religious shitte to do good things, be a decent human, nor do I need religion and a bi-weekly money sucking organization to belong to to have a good life!" What you do to *them* is show opportunities to get out of the flock and pack of fools to live a life that is self-determining and self-existant. If you plant the seeds of self-reliance in a persons mind, they may grow up and become a Human... Shit happens. It may be you that gets the fertilizer turned over so the seeds can grow.. n, Fat and Freeman, by inclination and choice |
| Posted by: EmersonDrive Feb 12 2005, 11:40 AM |
| wow that's very huge of you. You're on your way to being a better human being, in fact you already are a better human being, by trying to understand and tolerate beliefs you are trying to live at peace with others and that's important. You're not angry if others believe different than you and that's a very cool thing. Way to go! |
| Posted by: IAm_Lucifer Feb 12 2005, 03:00 PM | ||||
Thanks a lot. I'm happy about it too.
You are right Nivek. You don't deconvert someone but as it's been said before, you can plant a seed. It's been a long time since I last spoke about religion with this friend of mine and so it was such a shock when he just announced he was no longer Catholic. Now he tells me that I was right all along and how the things I said make sense. Now only if all christians were so open minded... |
| Posted by: Pseudonym Feb 14 2005, 02:28 AM |
| Religion becomes dangerous the minute it establishes itself in people's heads as a universal truth; Christianity and Islam harbour and promote this particular factor as an inherent aspect of their respective ideologies. It is at this point that people begin impressing their preconceptions on those they perceieve as existing and functioning outside their self-knitted, insulating bubble of belief, and which therefore constitute a direct threat to the means via which they define their existence. Ergo, the desire to make one's religious beliefs public policy is a direct by-product of fear; fear that the existence or promotion of alternate ideologies or schools of thought will prove caustic to what one desires to be "true". Tolerate that? Forget it. |