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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 13 2004, 02:09 PM |
| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > I Feel Offended Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 02:37 PM I want to address something. It is the issue about why did people leave Christianity. Over & over Christians come here and rant that the reason some of left Christianity is that we were hurt. It is true for some but I have to add that it was the hurt that got some of questioning it. After questioning ourselves and thinking long & hard, we I should say "I" came to the very same conclusion that those who studied their way out. There is no God/No Jesus. Usually what happens after a Christian says we left out of being hurt is that the people who studied their way out will jump in and say "I didnt leave because I was hurt". So Im wondering, is your point about not leaving out of hurt a way to prove your atheism and defend yourself about something? Im wondering about the something. Are there atheists who feel that those who were hurt in it are hiding something? That we didnt fit into the Christian group because we were doing something wrong? I feel offended at that. I dont want to set up a dividing thing but thats exactly what Christians seem to do when they ask "why did we leave". THEY DIVIDE. Anyway what I am trying to say (Im no writer) is that it makes no fucking reason WHY you left. You left and thats that. I dont beleive in God and you dont beleive in God, does it really matter how we got here? If you are trying to PROVE that Christianity doesnt exist then I can see your point but if you are saying it for some other reason you are wrong. It sounds to me like people are trying to make it a moral issue. I can understand an atheist not wanting a Christian to see atheism as an emotional decision but it is sometimes a fact that emotional pain can put your mind into action. Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 02:42 PM I mean really, do you have to "earn" your way into your own beleif system? Do you have to earn it through pain & suffering or years of studying? Posted by: Farasha Feb 1 2004, 02:48 PM Good question. I would say that although you do not have to "earn" your way into your belief system, you should be able to support it. Blind atheism is no better than blind Christianity. We all embarked on a journey to get where we are, and where we are now is a result of that journey. For some that journey involved deep hurt, guilt and suffering; for others it involved intense study. It doesn't matter precisely HOW we got here. All that matters is the fact that we're here, and we all got here somehow, and that each of our journies, although different, are all valid. Of couse the experience is going to be different for everyone because it is an intensely personal experience. I agree with you in saying that Christians have no right to judge whether we "earned" our way into our current belief system and whether that journey was "valid". They have a right to ask for curiosity's sake, but not to pass judgement. Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 03:12 PM Farasha, Thanks I hear what youre saying. I just realized that I did not need to start this thread because it just adds feul to something that doesnt even matter much. You ever do that? Start a thread & then wish you could just erase it? I dont think the computer does this. Anyway, I could support being an atheist without too much studying for the simple fact that God doesnt talk to me & Ive never seen him. I dont have faith. What is faith anyway? I should be able to describe that much. Faith is beleiving without seeing isnt it? Beleiving something that cant be proven? You wanna know what I really hate? When some Christian says to me: "You have faith that the can of beans youre about to open has beans in it dont you?" No I dont. For all I know that can has carrots in it, I wont beleive it until I open it and look. You know what I mean Im sure. I do like what you said Farasha about being able to support what you beleive. Its good to have when youre being attacked. Ya gotta love being defensive no? Well its the superbowl and I guess defensive & offensive both have their strenghths. ha ha Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 03:16 PM Maybe this is part of it too: People dont want to admit to being hurt? How could you not experience guilt in that fucking religion. Even when your morals are very good, that crap reeks of guilt. Okay maybe not for men it doesnt. I think I found my answer now. Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 1 2004, 03:24 PM michelle, This kind of fits my earilier point about ignorance vs. education. For me personally, I need to be able to explain to myself WHY I "believe" something or not. I'm sure I seem needlessly complicated to some, but that's just me. In case I didn't state earilier, I think education comes from experience, reading, studing, lecture, etc etc. For me, Farasha's point fits. Blind belief is blind belief and ignorance, and just doesn't work for me. I have difficutly respecting other people's blind beliefs as well, although Its not really any of my business. Ultimatly, its up to you. If blind belief works for you, great. Fuck everybody else, who cares that they think? When has worry about what someone else thought of you helped you? When has worry about what someone else thought of me helped me? If you can't accept blind belief, I recommend education. There are probably other paths, but those are the paths I'm aware of... Posted by: Shadfox Feb 1 2004, 03:38 PM The reason why they want to jump to this conclusion, that we left christianity because of someone's behavior towards us, is because they cannot admit one can leave the faith on their own with full conviction. This angers me as well. When my mother found out I was experimenting with alternative religions she believed that New Age, New World Order conspirators set up something in my school to brainwash us out of Xianity. Why the hell couldn't she understand I had legitimate reasons for leaving and that I put much thought into the decision? She also blames the Spiritual Warrior I was dragged to for exorcism. Even she realized the lady was a nut. She also blames my suicidal, fundie Aunt who takes everything to the extreme. She also blames mental illness for my atheism, because her father was a schizophrenic who also happened to be a nonbeliever. In this this painfully linear cognition, atheism is the effect of dementia. When speaking of my deconversion, I specifically point at the Bible. If Christianity is as fantastic as everyone says it is, I would have stayed despite all these looneys getting me down! Posted by: TexasFreethinker Feb 1 2004, 03:50 PM QUOTE (Shadfox @ Feb 1 2004, 06:38 PM) When my mother found out I was experimenting with alternative religions she believed that New Age, New World Order conspirators set up something in my school to brainwash us out of Xianity. Why the hell couldn't she understand I had legitimate reasons for leaving and that I put much thought into the decision? Same here. The first words out of my mother's mouth were something like "who corrupted you?" Posted by: Lokmer Feb 1 2004, 05:05 PM I'm very big on informed opinions, and not very big on emotional ones - if the truth is uncomfortable or terrible, I would still rather know it than not. That's what leaving Christianity was for me. Those that leave for emotional reasons are perfectly entitled to do so, and those reasons are sometimes as truthful or more truthful than those based on study. For myself, emotion is important but I understand how it can alter a mind in ways that are not in accord with reality - have you ever been in love with a person for whom you were not well matched and had disaster ensue? I sure have. Leaving Christianity for the right reasons was important to me, because I had to know that it was not true. Too often in our culture people chose their beliefs based on whether they like it, whether it "works" for them, whether they can "agree" with it, as if truth were somehow determined by majority vote. I know many who believe in God because they "can't imagine a world without God" (I've heard this called the "argument from personal incredulity") - as if the limits of one's imagination deliniate the truth of the broader world. For me, I was perfectly willing to put up with the evil, the bullshit, the falseness, and what all (although I was very outspoken when I encountered those things in the church) because I believed it was true. I believed that Christianity was unique and the embodiment of truths that were strewn all through religion around the world - that only Christianity had all of that truth in one place, because it revolved around a historical event rather than a mythical one. I have been privy to contract murders, witness to rape, blackmail, and embezzlement, and watched institutional power abused in many other quite illegal and disgusting ways. All of that was enough to get me out of churchgoing and being involved in leadership work, but people's behavior doesn't determine truth either (if there is any outside truth). So I did not leave the faith - in fact, I counted my blessings for having open eyes and the strength to oppose these things, which I believed came from God. It was not until I ran hard up against things I could not reconcile - Christian doctrines that come out of Zoroastrianism and Egyptian necromancy, for example - that my faith began to falter. I am no longer convinced that there was a historical resurrection, or a historical Jesus that looked anything like the picture we have of him from the Gospels. But I think the biggest thing that got me was the false prophecy, which refutes the claims of divine inspiration (and Diety of Christ) by the Bible's own standards. Then it all blew away, and that was it. I still happen to believe in a God - I just don't know what God is, whether God is a property of the universe, or the universe a property of God, etc. - but I do not belive in a theist God, because as much as I want to I am not convinced of the truth of the construct. Emotion leads people to do stupid things as often as smart things. I know many people who left Christianity for Druidism or Wicca because they were running from sexual abuse. They objectified their problem and projected it onto the religion. While religion may have helped the victimization along, it did not perpetrate it, and running from one myth system to another does not fix the problem, it just gives them somewhere new to hide. I am not big on hiding. There are those here, like you Michelle, who left for emotional reasons and have grown in wisdom as a result, and I think that's wonderful. But for me the real issue about Christianity is whether or not it is true. As far as I can tell, all of its claims are demonstrably false on a dogmatic, empiric, and realistic level (although I still think it communicates spiritual and philosophical truths through its stories, its doctrine is bankrupt). Something as serious as religion - which supposedly deals with the ultimate nature of the universe - is for me too important to treat like a preference for one kind of pizza over another. That said, I think that the amount of evil done by the church on people - both by the doctrine itself and by the cultures it creates - bears powerful witness against the falseness of its claims. As such, people who leave for emotional reasons are justified, I think, but I would hope that (for the sake of their own stability and happiness) they learn about why Christianity is false from all these other angles as well. -Lokmer Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 05:58 PM As far as joining Christianity, I did it because I thought that the people who had it, had something good going for themselves. I was very much brainwashed into it. As for leaving, I made that decision on my own, without advice & suggestions. It seems that one path was a brainwashing and one was a choice. You have to begin with choice. You have to begin with a will. I refuse to take full responsibility for myself being a Christian. Is it my responsibility to show 2 five year olds thats its false, yes. Recently somebody was so stupid as to say: "Why bring religion up at all to them"? Thats great, dont address anything, just let them raise themselves, somebody give me a gun, I have emotions. Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 1 2004, 08:56 PM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 1 2004, 04:12 PM) When some Christian says to me: "You have faith that the can of beans youre about to open has beans in it dont you?" No I dont. For all I know that can has carrots in it, I wont beleive it until I open it and look. I say I've opened many cans and there was always beans in it. How many times have I asked gawd to answer a prayer or show me a sign and received nothing? There's the difference. There's a reasonable expectation that there would be beans in it. If on the other hand quality control was horrendous at all the bean canneries and we ended up with empty cans, cans with dead mice, cans of creamed corn al the time, you wouldn't have "faith" that there would be beans. Posted by: Tocis Feb 2 2004, 01:14 AM Hi, I'd agree with most of you in that all that matters is that we made a decision, the reason is irrelevant to others. Of course people have a right to ask us for reasons (if they are polite enough, that is ) but they have no right to persist on receiving answers if we don't want to give them (especially if they realized that the answers we gave them are not what they want to hear) and they have no right to judge. And yes, I agree that many fundies probably want to believe that we were hurt by xians because they can then blame our leaving on individual xians who did wrong, instead of having to accept that people can leave the fold without "negative outside influence", so to say. Posted by: HeathenM0M Feb 2 2004, 06:38 AM QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 1 2004, 05:37 PM) Anyway what I am trying to say (Im no writer) is that it makes no fucking reason WHY you left. You left and thats that. I dont beleive in God and you dont beleive in God, does it really matter how we got here? Michelle, I do feel the need to defend myself when someone asks if I left because I was hurt. I guess because it feels to me like they're implying that I made an emotional decision that I will regret once things calm down. However, I completely agree with what you said. It doesn't make any difference what one's reasons are for being an Atheist! Posted by: michelle Feb 2 2004, 02:39 PM Vixentrox, Very very nice post. Posted by: Vixentrox Feb 2 2004, 07:20 PM Thank you and DAMN! I thought I was a little post slut...you got me beat! Posted by: michelle Feb 2 2004, 07:44 PM Posted by: Buddy4me17 Feb 5 2004, 10:34 AM Michelle, I don't think it matters why you are not a theist, but to a certain extent I think it is a good idea to know (for yourself) why you choose not to believe. I was never in a religois household, nor was I ever religous. But I did investigate the probability of a diety and the odds always pointed to the logical conclusion that a diety is too complex and unlikely for our natural world. My investigation has allowed me to explain my position to other people in a rational manner, and I think that is a good thing. So knowing why has been helpful for me. Posted by: biggles7268 Feb 10 2004, 09:17 AM My father is an atheist and my mother is a Jehova's witness Growing up my dad would not allow her to teach either me or my sister anything about religion until we were old enough to understand it and make up our own minds about it. When I was 17 or 18 I tried very hard to read the bible, but I just couldn't accept anything in it. It didn't seem even remotely plausible to me. I heard someone say something like "I don't think they should be allowed to teach religion to anyone under 18. Because if it wasn't pushed into our heads while they're still soft nobody would buy it." And that pretty much sums it up for me, I really don't care what anyone else believes. It's your choice and if it helps you get thru the day then fine, just leave me alone I don't need it. Too bad they can't accept that it's perfectly ok to believe the world was created by a giant John Madden Pezz dispenser if you want to. I think the world would be better off if we did for that matter. Posted by: Doug2 Feb 10 2004, 09:35 AM Why must everyone bash the john madden pezz dispenser? Must be some kind of evil spirit trying to hide the truth of the great Pezz! Ingrates. The Pezz dispensed you and the whole universe but all you do is bash it. 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