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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Rants & Replies > Help! Posted by: whatifidont Jun 25 2004, 12:50 PM Help! A freind of mine's mother got out her study Bible to the question about Num 31:17-18. it says "Kill all the boys and all the women who have had sex. Only the little girls may live, and you may keep them for yourselves." (NIV) Her mother says that it ment they could only take the children if they married them! How can I help her? -Jake Posted by: Cerise Jun 25 2004, 12:54 PM Um...help her do what? Posted by: Christ is Lord Jun 25 2004, 12:59 PM it is so much fun to read out of context! Posted by: Cerise Jun 25 2004, 01:03 PM Aha, so in context it's perfectly okay to slay all the non-virgins and take the virgins so you can rape them yourself. You're right CIL. Rape and murder of heathens is so much fun to read about. Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Jun 25 2004, 01:04 PM QUOTE (Christ is Lord @ Jun 25 2004, 12:59 PM) it is so much fun to read out of context! Please see this rule: http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4815&view=findpost&p=86917 Posted by: Vixentrox Jun 25 2004, 01:04 PM Care to explain the "proper" context? Posted by: Christ is Lord Jun 25 2004, 01:18 PM My bad, I admit fault here, I mistook this for another passage in the bible. I flipped to it in the bible and realize I haven't really studied this part before. Sorry for jumping my mouth. I haven't even really read this part so I have no clue what the context was. Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Jun 25 2004, 01:25 PM QUOTE (Christ is Lord @ Jun 25 2004, 01:18 PM) My bad, I admit fault here, I mistook this for another passage in the bible. I flipped to it in the bible and realize I haven't really studied this part before. Sorry for jumping my mouth. I haven't even really read this part so I have no clue what the context was. Thanks CIL...honesty is admirable and appreciated. Posted by: Ro-bear Jun 25 2004, 01:54 PM QUOTE (Christ is Lord @ Jun 25 2004, 01:18 PM) My bad, I admit fault here, I mistook this for another passage in the bible. I flipped to it in the bible and realize I haven't really studied this part before. Sorry for jumping my mouth. I haven't even really read this part so I have no clue what the context was. Christ is Lord: If you would set aside some time to study this passage in context, I'm sure everyone would appreciate your take on it. I think I'll review it myself. I'm curious as to what circumstances might justify such instructions. -Rob Posted by: Vixentrox Jun 25 2004, 01:59 PM Well, should only take a few minutes to read the whole chapter. Please tell us again about your loving and mercyfull god. I'm pretty sure most of the ex-christians here know exactly what that story is about. Posted by: Christ is Lord Jun 25 2004, 02:07 PM ok, just for the record. A hard question is easy to ask, but it is not always easy to answer. You have proposed a good question, and I want to give you a good answer, so you will need to give me time to study this. And being read in context doesn't mean just reading before and after. You have to know all about what was going on to know exactly what the point of this passage was. Give me time and I will answer this question to the best of my abilities. Posted by: whatifidont Jun 25 2004, 02:25 PM Okay... *deep, calming breath* My freind has just recently started to deconvert from Christianity. Her parents are a little psycho about it, her mother went out to buy a study bible. In this study bible it said that it was okay for them to kill everyone (The 2 day old males included) except for the virgin girls. But they could only have sex with the girls if they got married! I think that this is a bunch of bull sh*t. She was very upset at the fact that no matter what she did her parents would have an excuse, wheather it was "You are taking this out of context," or "You just say this because you have been brain-washed." They have a lot of umbrella answers that you can not say anything back too. And as for context I beleive that the Christian (Jewish?) god dirrected them to smite this city because it was full of adulterers(sp?), which I think is very wrong. I am just worried that she will become depressed again and fall back into the fundy bull that she beleived for so long. Posted by: sexkitten Jun 25 2004, 02:36 PM How old is your friend, and does she live with or is she financially dependant on her parents? Can you get her involved in social groups with other nonXians? Does she have any other non-Xian friends besides you? That sort of thing can make a big difference in what we can advise for your friend, and for you as her friend. Good luck supporting and encouring her. Posted by: A. Uiet Bhor Jun 25 2004, 03:04 PM Simply pile biblical horror after horror on her. You have plenty more quotes than that one 1 sam 15 for eg. Also demo the cultic nature of the NT pauline bits, creepy stuff if you know what to look for. Posted by: Lokmer Jun 25 2004, 03:04 PM QUOTE (whatifidont @ Jun 25 2004, 03:25 PM) In this study bible it said that it was okay for them to kill everyone (The 2 day old males included) except for the virgin girls. But they could only have sex with the girls if they got married! I think that this is a bunch of bull sh*t. It IS bullshit. The virgin girls became their property - they could marry them or take them as house slaves as they saw fit, and house slaves and wives were both property of the husband. The obligations for the husband/master are similar (i.e. feed, clothe, and shelter the woman and her progeny) as are his rights to her (the right to her labor, her obedience, and her sexual submission). The rights of the wife are greater than the rights of the slave by the standards of that time, but not by a whole hell of a lot (a wife is entitled to alimony if turned out, a slave is not - a wife has a family that might stick up for her, a slave does not). There is no requirement in the Bible that they marry the girls in order to have sex with them - quite the opposite. They are explicitly listed as war booty, with a goodly number of the girls being given over as sex slaves to the priests (if I'm recalling the same incident). The NIV editors are performing a very subtle sleight-of-hand here. Because a wife and a slave were entitled to similar things from the master, and the master had similar rights over them, they are fudging the language. They are also performing retrospective eisigesis by reading their own sexual ethic ("I believe that God created sex for marriage only") into a text which clearly undermines that ethic ("God endorses and commands sex outside of marriage, and sexual slavery at that"), so they are dishonestly harmonizing them with the rationale "Well, a slave and a wife have a similar position." The dishonesty is given a third level of varnish because they know very well that their readers envision marriage as a monogamous union between equals who voulentarily join thier property and lives together, when marriage at the time was a financial arrangement for the betterment of the clan/family/tribe in which the woman became the property of the man, and not his partner. By doing this they also avoid having to admit that a man having sex with a slave, a prostitute, a second wife, or an unmarried mistress did not constitute adultery - ever, but the woman having sex with anyone but her husband was put to death for adultery. Marriage then and marriage now are not the same thing, but the Study Bible editors deliberately omit this information in order to make the text sound more civilized and easier to swallow. -Lokmer Posted by: JasonLong Jun 25 2004, 03:24 PM Perhaps the most important aspect of your conversation should deal with the notion that God (if such a creature exists) had nothing to do with the passage. A major roadblock in the deprogramming process is getting the Christian to realize the "God wouldn't do such a thing" mindset doesn't conflict with your viewpoint. Make sure your friend knows that you're in total agreement with her parents: no kind and loving god would ever order the rape of young girls. For this reason, the passage is obviously suspect because it gives implicit permission to commit such acts. Upon further investigation of biblical and nonbiblical sources, we can determine the unlikelihood of such Old Testament events ever taking place. I have written a book, available for free at the link in my signature, that may help your friend understand reality a little better. She is more than welcome to contact me for unbiased answers to her questions. Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jun 25 2004, 04:26 PM Bitch slap her and tell her to use her brain? Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jun 25 2004, 04:28 PM QUOTE (Christ is Lord @ Jun 25 2004, 04:18 PM) My bad, I admit fault here, I mistook this for another passage in the bible. I flipped to it in the bible and realize I haven't really studied this part before. Sorry for jumping my mouth. I haven't even really read this part so I have no clue what the context was. Don't apologize you need to learn how to fling insults around like me! Posted by: whatifidont Jun 25 2004, 05:20 PM My freind is only 16, and I have encouraged her to hide her beleifs from her parents. She did not listen to my advice adn told her parents that she wanted to be Pagan... That is the day we refer to simply as "The Night" (her parents screamed at her for three hours and then called me and yelled at me) It was realy bad for a few months until she told her mother, "Jesus never preached to a closed ear" and that all it did was make her upset and push her farther away. Her mom said okay and hasnt brought it up since... She was looking over her shoulder when she was on messenger today, that is what brought it up. *sigh* I did not want her to tell her parents because that would lead to a very painful conflict. The past cannot be changed, however, and steel is stregthened by fire. -Jake Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 25 2004, 06:25 PM QUOTE (whatifidont @ Jun 25 2004, 03:25 PM) Okay... *deep, calming breath* My freind has just recently started to deconvert from Christianity. Her parents are a little psycho about it, her mother went out to buy a study bible. Whatifidont... Several years ago I moved to Tucson, AZ (from Phoenix) to start and run a partial hospitalization program for adolescent mentally ill gang bangers. Zog only knows what the heck was wrong with me, I must have thought life was too easy and uncomplicated. ;o) Well, we got these really hard core kids in that didn't have the slightest idea what it meant to feel safe in their own home, they didn't know what nurturing meant. They didn't have the slightest idea that there was a difference between severe abuse and loving redirection. I really questioned if I was just warehousing these kids or if I was doing anything. I didn't have a lot of hope for most of these kids. Thing is, I can usually see beyond someone's issues. I'm pretty good at sizing up people in real time and I can usually figure out what I can expect from someone. I know what is expecting too much and I know when I'm being conned and someone can do *much* better. Gradually I got to know these kids and I really liked them. They were cool. I'm from Iowa, I don't know the first thing about gangs. I live all around them now (everyone in Phoenix does) and I still know very little about them. There was a lot of give and take and over time they taught me a great deal. Due to my willingness to learn from them they opened up to me and we talked. On weekends I would have all the kids go to bed at a given time and the one that needed the most time I would tell him to wait until everyone else was asleep and them come out and talk to me. One kid was Joey. Joey was bright, he was artistic, he was funny, he was honest... he was a lot of really great things. Sometimes we would just talk until 4AM-5AM. He had never had an adult that didn't want to hurt him around before. I don't think he really realized there was such a thing as an adult that didn't want to molest him, force him to eat hot peppers until he threw up and then make him eat his own vomit.... well, you get the idea. One day it hit me that although overall my kids were doing really well when they left my care they would be going back to abusive homes again and smack in the middle of their gangs. I was heartsick, it made me wonder if I was doing more harm than good. Would they go back to the abuse and now realize there is another life but they have no rights to it? What good was I doing if they were going back to the same environment that created their personal demons anyway? This is one of the reasons that I left that job. I really questioned if I was doing more harm than good. That wasn't the only reason but that was a big one. A few months after I left I got a call from Child Protective Services. Joey's case manager wanted to know if Joey could write to me. She said that he could send the letters to her if I wanted so he wouldn't have my home address. I laughed, of all my kids I knew I had no concerns about Joey ever harming me or my family in any way. I told her she could give him my address and/or phone number, that was fine. Joey called me and periodically we would write back and forth but I still had the same nagging thoughts and I started backing off. I didn't answer most of the letters and I didn't take any of the phone calls. A couple years after that Joey was of legal age and he contacted me again. He wanted to know what he had done, why was I ignoring him... he didn't get it. So, I told him the truth. I was absolutely honest with him and told him that it bothered me that he would go from a place where all the staff really liked him a great deal, treated him well, expected nothing but acceptable behaviors from him just so he could go back in the same horrible situation he came from. I was worried that we did him more harm than good. He started laughing. He gave me a pretty good lesson in reality. Basically he said that I planted a seed. I showed him there is another side to life. I showed him that not all people are bad and some are pretty damn nice and they are sincere about it. Yeah, he went back to the gangs and he went back to an abusive family but for the first time he knew there was another life outside of the bullshit. I may not have made a huge difference in his life at that point in time... when I was taking care of him but he was quite clear that I made a very large impression on him just by planting the seed. He was especially clear that I made a difference in how he was raising his own son. The infamous seed is quite powerful. Smother the seed and attempt to force it to grow your way and you'll kill the seed. Plant the buggar and let it grow on its own and it will do quite well without you. IOW, plant the seed and be there if she has questions. But trying to save her from xtianity... you'll push her right into the arms of the bible. She has the right to make her own choices in life IN HER OWN TIME. Not your time, hers. Do that and you'll see her grow. Smother her and you'll be able to sit back and watch the seed die out. Posted by: whatifidont Jun 25 2004, 07:16 PM I am not trying to force her into anything... She knew about my decision in religion and we dropped it until she started to question Christianity. She asked me what Pagans beleived, so I told her my beleifs and also told her a few websites she could go to. She was very enthusiastic about different religions, and I encouraged her study. I asked her many, many times if she was just doing this because she wanted to make her parents mad or if she realy wanted to do it. That was 6 months ago. She constantly wants me to teach her more and in many ways has surpassed my knowledge! She wants to know how to cast spells so I give her formulas for it, that seems to be the only part that she is having trouble grasping, aside from the whole deity thing. (She does not totaly understand how all the gods are one god and all the goddesses are one goddess...) I beleive that she realy wants to do this for real. And for my part I do not bring up religion unless it is to answer a question she had asked. Sorry if I read your post wrong but I felt like I was being accused of being a fundy... No harm done though! -Jake Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 25 2004, 07:42 PM QUOTE (whatifidont @ Jun 25 2004, 08:16 PM) I beleive that she realy wants to do this for real. And for my part I do not bring up religion unless it is to answer a question she had asked. Sorry if I read your post wrong but I felt like I was being accused of being a fundy... No harm done though! -Jake I didn't accuse you of being a fundie. Didn't even come close. From your post what I did gather is that you are very much wanting her to see the light, per se. You don't want her being sucked into hate in the name of love, etc. That's admirable. I think everyone meets someone where they are anxious to see them live life instead of living a lie. When you are passionate about something it sometimes comes off different from intended. Nothing fundie-like in the least about that. Posted by: Cerise Jun 25 2004, 08:11 PM I would just like to point out that, marriage or no, this passage was still a direct order giving permission to rape captive virgins. Unless you would like to wager on these young girls being totally willing to "marry" the men who had just killed their mothers, fathers, brothers, and, if I'm not mistaken, all their livestock as well. Forced marriage = forced sex. Posted by: Fweethawt Jun 25 2004, 08:18 PM QUOTE (AzAtheist @ Jun 25 2004, 10:25 PM) The infamous seed is quite powerful. Smother the seed and attempt to force it to grow your way and you'll kill the seed. Plant the buggar and let it grow on its own and it will do quite well without you. Posted by: Doug2 Jun 25 2004, 10:30 PM why is it that most people who have read the bible are the ones who are not christians? Posted by: Lokmer Jun 26 2004, 01:59 AM QUOTE (Cerise @ Jun 25 2004, 09:11 PM) I would just like to point out that, marriage or no, this passage was still a direct order giving permission to rape captive virgins. Unless you would like to wager on these young girls being totally willing to "marry" the men who had just killed their mothers, fathers, brothers, and, if I'm not mistaken, all their livestock as well. Forced marriage = forced sex. Dead-on-balls accurate with no bullshit as usual, Cerise. ::high five:: -Lokmer Posted by: whatifidont Jun 26 2004, 02:53 AM I would like to thank all of you so much! *hugs all the posters* I sent her to look at this forum and explained some things in it, she said it was okay to use her name but I still wont. Anyways she still had a few questions about different Bible contradictions, wich I was suprised at(She had more contradictions memorized than I have ever heard of!) Thank you all again! -Jake Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 26 2004, 07:40 AM QUOTE (Doug2 @ Jun 25 2004, 11:30 PM) why is it that most people who have read the bible are the ones who are not christians? Amazing how that works, eh? ;o) When I read the bible (trying to increase my fading faith) it suddenly dawned on me that in all those years of going to church I didn't recall a single time that we were encouraged to read the bible. Certainly NEVER cover to cover. Not once. A very dear friend of mine is a catholic priest and one day I asked him why? Why aren't catholics (don't know about other brands of xtianity) encouraged to read their bibles. He said it wasn't necessary. He went on to explain that if one goes to mass weekly the bible is basically completely covered every three years in sermons. That's a load of crap, I didn't recognize 99% of the bible when I was reading it and I went to church every bloody Sunday, CCD, etc. and I knew nothing about what was really in there. It was one of those times we had to agree to disagree. Posted by: PseudoGod Jun 26 2004, 10:38 AM QUOTE (AzAtheist @ Jun 25 2004, 06:25 PM) I'm from Iowa, I don't know the first thing about gangs. I live all around them now (everyone in Phoenix does) and I still know very little about them. AZ that was a good story. I always thought it be cool to be able to help people like that, it must make you feel really good to know you are making a difference. By the way I live in phoenix also (hey neighbor), do you really think there are gangs everywhere in phoenix? I am a native of los angeles and one of the reasons I ended up here was to get away from all that. I have lived in several areas in Phoenix and so far I have yet to see anything even close the problems of other cities. At least that has been my experience. Posted by: AzAtheist Jun 26 2004, 11:39 AM QUOTE (PseudoGod @ Jun 26 2004, 11:38 AM) By the way I live in phoenix also (hey neighbor), do you really think there are gangs everywhere in phoenix? I am a native of los angeles and one of the reasons I ended up here was to get away from all that. I have lived in several areas in Phoenix and so far I have yet to see anything even close the problems of other cities. At least that has been my experience. I don't think our problem is as bad as CA, not by a long shot but it is still a big problem. Working in hospitals has made me see trends over time. When I first got into medicine it seemed as though our trauma units were full of drunk drivers. Later that progressed to drug abusers that hurt themselves driving high, jumping off buildings, killing each other for their drugs... now it is gangs. Gang wars, etc. Since you live in Phoenix (hey neighbor) you know where county hospital is? Maricopa county hospital is right in the middle of four different gang districts. County has a 'lock down' program. Meaning that when the gangs start fighting each other the hospital is right smack in the middle of all four gangs, right in the middle of gunfire. So they lock down the hospital. Doesn't matter who you are or what you are doing, when the doors lock if you are inside, you stay there. If you are outside, you had better find shelter. After it is over the doors open and the traumas start coming in. That just doesn't happen in the midwest. A friend of mine is a deputy in Missouri and he refers to the midwest as 'normal america' vs. Phoenix with gang wars and such. About a year ago the police officers in Phoenix went door to door in my neighborhood (north central phoenix) and suggested we make plans away from home that evening. They were expecting a gang war and thought it best for people to get out of the area. Perhaps since you are from LA it seems so toned down here that you don't notice it? Or, perhaps since I deal with them all the time due to my work I see it more? Not sure. BTW... are you aware that there is an 'atheist meet-up' monthly here? If you want to meet real time atheists they get together monthly at various restuarants. It's a group thing. I haven't done it yet but I keep meaning to go to one someday. What part of the valley do you live in? What field of work do you do? From what I understand there are lots of different atheists that go to the meet up and they are from varying careers and varying parts of the valley. Posted by: PseudoGod Jun 26 2004, 12:11 PM QUOTE (AzAtheist @ Jun 26 2004, 11:39 AM) Perhaps since you are from LA it seems so toned down here that you don't notice it? Or, perhaps since I deal with them all the time due to my work I see it more? Not sure. This is a very good point, it could be that both of us have a bias on the opposite ends of the scale. The other thing that is interesting to note is that I read somewhere that something like 60% of the net migration to AZ during the 90's was from California, and I am sure that trend hasn't let up. It could be that what you are seeing in your line of work is a direct result of that, which is the same thing I left to get away from. It's following me! Such irony. Anyway I would be interested in meeting some other atheists in the area.... I will PM you later today, I actually have to run right now I am supposed to pick someone up at the airport and I am late. Talk to you a little later! Posted by: Lalli Jun 28 2004, 07:31 PM QUOTE (whatifidont @ Jun 25 2004, 09:50 PM) Her mother says that it ment they could only take the children if they married them! How can I help her? Your friend sounds like she'll be a-ok Her mother, on the other paw... Maybe one day, someday, you or your friend can ask her mother to imagine that she's a 6 year old girl, say, and one day this army of men raid her village, hack her parents and siblings to death, then drag her away to their camp. Once there, she gets 'married' to one of the men by a priest. That night he rapes her, and she'll spend the rest of her life being raped by him and being forced to have his kids. And I'm leaving out all the *really* nasty bits. What kind of God would not only condone but *order* that? Posted by: whatifidont Jun 28 2004, 07:55 PM Her mother can not put herself in that position because she has never been raped, trust me on this. It is the worst experience anyone can have, short of watching their children get killed/raped. And she will also say that, "It was God's will" And I say, "Bullsh*t" -Jake Posted by: BlueGiant Jun 28 2004, 09:41 PM Straght up on that account, Jake. It seems as though threre was a big fraggin' asterisk on the "Don't kill" command, you know? I also have to agree that passages like the one you kicked off the thread with point to a fundamental problem with the Abrhamic god-concept, that a good deity would not order this, making the work where the order is placed suspect, or that it was inspired by said deity, which kind of shoots the omnibenevolent (all good) thing down. Kind of a Christian (and potentially Jewish and Islamic as well, not too sure on those counts) catch 22. Best of luck to your friend. There is a lot of misunderstanding about Pagans and minority religions in general, especially by fundie sects. Maybe this will serve as a clue-by-four for the rest of the family. Keep us posted. Posted by: whatifidont Jun 29 2004, 04:50 PM I think that it is all good for now but... well if you want to hear more about her and her family go here: http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4754&st=15&#entry88883 This is the one thread she has started and posted in, she is Hi Mom! And I am gonna get in trouble for this me thinks... -Jake P.S. just in case anyone cares I didnt get in trouble for it! Posted by: whatifidont Jun 29 2004, 05:02 PM What about Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There are some standing here, who shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." Her parents say that like it mean THIS generation. -Jake Posted by: BlueGiant Jun 30 2004, 12:47 AM Some people are just terminal. I don't know her parents, but something tells me that she should get out of Dodge asap. I'm not sure how fundie-nuts her parents are, but I don't want to hear about a "botched exorcism" or something of that nature. Jake, you should be careful, too, if they ever figure out the extent of your role in all this. From your description her parents don't sound like they have a very tight grip on reality. That said, keep fighting the good fight, and help her on her path. Posted by: formerfundie Jun 30 2004, 04:42 PM QUOTE (whatifidont @ Jun 29 2004, 05:02 PM) What about Matthew 16:28 "Verily I say unto you, There are some standing here, who shall not taste of death, till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." Her parents say that like it mean THIS generation. -Jake That's because that is what her parents believe - they believe that it is meant for this generation - as they probably believe many other things about or that are in the bible - like the number 666 - revelations - the beast - etc - closest thing I see us to havin right now as a 'beast' is Bush - and I haven't seen any 'chariots of fire' or flying saucers or angels coming to take anyone away lately either, nor have I seen any talking snakes or donkeys (well, that's debatable) - but I'm pretty sure her parents likely believe the bible is THE word of TRUTH... FF Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |