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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Greetings Posted by: Jay Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM Just thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Jay, I live in Wisconsin, and I am a Christian. I did not come here to convert any of you. I was directed here by a friend, and I find many of the discussions here fascinating and heartbreaking at the same time. I would like to say that I have been where many of you are. I lost my faith completely at one point and was a millisquidgen away from becoming an atheist. My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity. So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. I do not have a lot of time to post here, but I will when I can. All I ask is this: I come in peace. I do not come as an enemy. While We no doubt will disagree on numerous issues, I certainly enjoy good discussion, provided we do not make it personal. I will not attempt to convert or belittle any of you, and I trust you will treat me the same way. So, out of curiosity, I understand that most people here are gotmer Christians. Are you also atheists? I just ask because I ran up to the brink of atheism, and couldn't do it. So, that's it: Does being an ex-Christian mean that you are an atheist? Posted by: AltarEgo Jan 27 2004, 11:02 PM hey jay! welcome, just wanted to say glad you made it over. thanks for the polite introduction. i hope you find yourself in good company here. and no it doesn't mean that we are atheist necessarily Posted by: Fweethawt Jan 27 2004, 11:05 PM Hello Jay, Welcome to the ExChristian Forum. If the attitude that you presented in your greeting message stays with you, you will make a great many friends here at this site. When you stated, "My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity.", that put you on the level with (just about) everyone here. There are Atheists here, and to answer your question as to whether or not an ExChristian is an Atheist, your answer is NO. An ExChristian is anyone who does not consider themselves as being a Christian, that's it. However, you will find some Christians here who make an admirable effort in trying to understand why some people choose not to be Christian. For the most part though, an ExChristian is someone who used to be a Christian then at one time, they realized the same thing you did when your "life turned around". Hope that explains some things for you. Welcome and peace! Posted by: Tocis Jan 27 2004, 11:14 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) All I ask is this: I come in peace. I do not come as an enemy. While We no doubt will disagree on numerous issues, I certainly enjoy good discussion, provided we do not make it personal. I will not attempt to convert or belittle any of you, and I trust you will treat me the same way. You know, of course, that this is what many "Christians" claim when they post here for the first time... and a fair number of them change their attitudes when they realize that the ex-christians here are not easy to re-convert et cetera. Your introduction surely is a polite one. If you stay that way, welcome. (Quotation marks above are used to symbolize that I don't consider those people christians if they become aggressive very fast) QUOTE So, that's it: Does being an ex-Christian mean that you are an atheist? Obviously not... though many fundie fanatics, in their childish black-or-white worldview, equate "non-christian" with "atheist". To name but one example, early last summer I left German protestantism for Asatru - the faith of the pre-christian Germans and Vikings. Am I an atheist? Only if one considers all deities but the christian one to be illusions... and even then it could be argued "that's in the eye of the beholder". Posted by: edasher Jan 28 2004, 12:01 AM "Atheism is in the eye of the beholder..." Thats a good one Tocis. In "A history of God" Karen Armstrong says that the pagans who first observed monothesim called the monothesist "atheisths," without GodS. Funny... Posted by: Redshift Jan 28 2004, 12:09 AM QUOTE My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity. Welcome What good is Christianity then? Ironically, it was that very realisation that started me on the path towards apostacy and freedom. Posted by: Matthew Jan 28 2004, 12:52 AM QUOTE Does being an ex-Christian mean that you are an atheist? Not necessarily. When my faith collapsed, I swtiched to being a Deist. I had a crush on Deism for some time and when I was a Christian, it angered me that I felt compelled to conclude Christianity was true. I felt I was "stuck" with historical evidence that it was true. Now that I am skeptical of the faith, I have been a Deist. Matthew Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Jan 28 2004, 03:32 AM Ex-Christian means just Ex-Christian, i.e., no longer believes in Christianity. There is plenty of variety represented here. Posted by: 603269726 Jan 28 2004, 03:38 AM Hi Jay! nice to meet you! we have lots of different kinds of people here. i like the ones made of candy Posted by: HeathenM0M Jan 28 2004, 05:43 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 01:51 AM) So, that's it: Does being an ex-Christian mean that you are an atheist? Welcome, Jay. Being an ex-Christian can mean any number of things. I, personally, went through a couple of stages after leaving Christianity before I considered myself an Atheist. Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 07:58 AM QUOTE (Redshift @ Jan 28 2004, 12:09 AM) QUOTE My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity. Welcome What good is Christianity then? Ironically, it was that very realisation that started me on the path towards apostacy and freedom. Indeed! Many of my Christians friends and I discuss the same thing... It seems that this religion of Christianity has emerged to be something other than what Christ taught, and really is not about serving God and others anymore. Instead, it seems to have become a self-serving thing, more about advancing a political agenda... Honestly, I find fundamentalism repugnent, and, when I left evnagelicalism to find Christ, I discovered there is a lot of truth that is simply ignored by those who claim to follow Christ. In any event, thanks for the welcome. Really, I have no interest in fighting with anyone. Since we have the pseudo-anonymity of the message board, I will tell you this once, because it sounds a little arrogant. A good friend of mine, who is a lofe-long agnostic, told me once that I was the only honest Christian he has ever met. I don't have exhaustive knowledge of the other Christians he has met, but I found that statement quite humbling. In any event, it honestly is not my role to convert any of you. I can explain what I know, and I hope to make some good friends here - many of you are very bright, and I love a good debate! If anyone's heart is going to change, it will be an act of God, not an act of Jay. So, I can tell you what I know and how God has affectd my life and why it seems to me that there simply must be a God, but it is not my role to make you believe it, nor would I even try. That action is up to God. Thanks again for the kind welcome. btw...I am freer now than I ever have been... Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 28 2004, 08:25 AM Welcome Jay! Looks like there's two of us now - both Christians. Look out everyone, I'm cloning myself!!! Jay, if you've come to be challenged, come to build relationships, and come without pre-judgements, you'll find it a good place to be. I've already met so many great people. Once again, welcome brother... JayS8NT Posted by: Redshift Jan 28 2004, 08:34 AM Jay I'm gratified that we're attracting an increasing amount of unfundies on these forums. I'm curious about which aspects of Christian dogma you accept and which you reject. For example, do you believe in: 1. A Holy Trinity? 2. That Jesus is God? 3. Original sin? 4. The holy sacraments? 5. Hell? 6. The Ten Commandments? 7. Angels? 8. Demons? 9. Sola scriptura/Biblical inerrancy 10. Acceptance of Christ as the only path to salvation? etc. Posted by: moorezw Jan 28 2004, 10:24 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 01:51 AM) There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. Jay- This is not a universally accepted opinion. Nature is sufficient; there is no need to imagine more. Posted by: starstuff Jan 28 2004, 11:04 AM QUOTE Just thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Jay, I live in Wisconsin, and I am a Christian. I did not come here to convert any of you. I was directed here by a friend, and I find many of the discussions here fascinating and heartbreaking at the same time. Welcome. I like to see some sincere Christians here--especially since you add variety to the discussions. Just don't start trying to re-convert us (though a bit of debate if fine with me) and you will be welcome here. QUOTE I would like to say that I have been where many of you are. I lost my faith completely at one point and was a millisquidgen away from becoming an atheist. My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity. So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. I do not have a lot of time to post here, but I will when I can. What do you mean "God is not the leader of Christianity"? Who is? That almost sounds like something a Deist would say -- that is, someone who believes in God but not in Christianity (or any other organized religion). But I think I must have misunderstood your intent, because you did say you are a Christian . . . QUOTE All I ask is this: I come in peace. I do not come as an enemy. While We no doubt will disagree on numerous issues, I certainly enjoy good discussion, provided we do not make it personal. I will not attempt to convert or belittle any of you, and I trust you will treat me the same way. Sounds good to me. QUOTE So, out of curiosity, I understand that most people here are gotmer Christians. Are you also atheists? I just ask because I ran up to the brink of atheism, and couldn't do it. So, that's it: Does being an ex-Christian mean that you are an atheist? I am an ex-Christian atheist. On my way to this point I went through evangelical Christianity, to agnostic Christianity, Catholicism (brief spurt), to agnostic atheism, to atheism. I've seen others on the site with many other beliefs as well: Deists, Buddists, Pagans, and someone who worships the Norse gods if I remember right (I don't know what that system of belief is called). So no, being ex-Christian does not make someone an Atheist. Hope this is helpful. Posted by: Reach Jan 28 2004, 11:13 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 07:58 AM) ... I will tell you this once, because it sounds a little arrogant. A good friend of mine, who is a life-long agnostic, told me once that I was the only honest Christian he has ever met. I don't have exhaustive knowledge of the other Christians he has met, but I found that statement quite humbling. Welcome Jay! The truth sometimes has a little arrogant ring to it, doesn't it? Well, I'm an honest Christian except I don't call myself a Christian because I find that term to be repugnant. I choose to say I'm a follower of Christ. I know it's only semantics but, I'm an editor, so... I'm kind of a word person. Now when you meet pitchu; she's the dictionary so get yourself a good one. All in fun. Welcome brother. Enjoy the place. Hang up your hat and stay a while. reach Edit: Uh-oh! With this post, I'm promoted to Total Apostate. Oh well! Some of the fundies have been calling me a heretic for months. Posted by: PW Jan 28 2004, 12:49 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) I understand that most people here are gotmer Christians. No comprende? Did you mean to say former? Posted by: Reach Jan 28 2004, 01:17 PM QUOTE (PW @ Jan 28 2004, 12:49 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) I understand that most people here are gotmer Christians. No comprende? Did you mean to say former? Excellent deduction, PW. Judging by the keys... Posted by: TexasFreethinker Jan 28 2004, 01:20 PM Hi Jay, welcome to the forums. Civil christians are always welcome! Enjoy your stay. Posted by: sexkitten Jan 28 2004, 01:24 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 07:58 AM) A good friend of mine, who is a lofe-long agnostic, told me once that I was the only honest Christian he has ever met. My husband and I heard this, or variations of this, a lot from friends and acquaintances. Only true Christian, only honest Christians, only Christians who exemplified Jesus' example of love, "if the Christians I grew up with were like you, maybe I wouldn't have left." Words like that made my husband weep for the state of the church, and realize how little the fruits of Christianity pointed to truth. It led, in part, to his deconversion. As for me... to be honest, at the time I started hearing this, I had stopped caring about pleasing God and was a lapsed Christian just trying to do what's right. Posted by: Tocis Jan 28 2004, 02:03 PM QUOTE (starstuff @ Jan 28 2004, 11:04 AM) I've seen others on the site with many other beliefs as well: Deists, Buddists, Pagans, and someone who worships the Norse gods if I remember right (I don't know what that system of belief is called). Hey Starstuff, the fitting name is Asatru, meaning "true to the Aesir Gods". Followers of the Aesir are called Asatruar. And, to be honest, those who predominantly follow the "other" group of deities would be called Vanatruar (true to the Vanir). If you happen to want more information, methinks a good place to start is www.thetroth.org Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 02:27 PM 1. A Holy Trinity? I am a binitarian. 2. That Jesus is God? I do accept the deity of Christ as a true doctrine. 3. Original sin? I do believe the doctrine of Original Sin. 4. The holy sacraments? I believe the sacraments are institutions established to enhanceour relationship to God. 5. Hell? I do not believe in a fire and brimstone hell. When you die, you wither inherit eternal life or you do not. 6. The Ten Commandments? They seem like good rules to me. 7. Angels? They exist. 8. Demons? They also exist. 9. Sola scriptura/Biblical inerrancy I believe the Bible consists of some history, some poetry, some personal opinion, and some teaching from God. However, since this teaching is passed through through fallible men, it is difficult to claim that it is without error. 10. Acceptance of Christ as the only path to salvation? I believe the sacrifice of Christ presents the only way to salvation, but God is able to reveal himself to people in different ways. However, I am not a universalist. Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 02:32 PM QUOTE (starstuff @ Jan 28 2004, 11:04 AM) QUOTE I would like to say that I have been where many of you are. I lost my faith completely at one point and was a millisquidgen away from becoming an atheist. My life turned around when I discovered that God is not the leader of Christianity. So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. I do not have a lot of time to post here, but I will when I can. What do you mean "God is not the leader of Christianity"? Who is? That almost sounds like something a Deist would say -- that is, someone who believes in God but not in Christianity (or any other organized religion). But I think I must have misunderstood your intent, because you did say you are a Christian . . . Well, as I see it, the leaders of Christianity are a bunch of well known preachers. Many who claim Christ follow these leaders around as if they were mini-Messiahs. That bothers me. I follow Christ, not a hierarchy established by men. I trust God, and him alone. Christianity is a separate religion from what Christ taught. Thus, I reject the bulk of it and try to stick to what Christ actually taught... Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 02:34 PM QUOTE (reach @ Jan 28 2004, 01:17 PM) QUOTE (PW @ Jan 28 2004, 12:49 PM) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) I understand that most people here are gotmer Christians. No comprende? Did you mean to say former? Excellent deduction, PW. Judging by the keys... hehe...I even did the spell check and everything...Indeed, I meant former... Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 02:57 PM QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 28 2004, 10:24 AM) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 01:51 AM) There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. Jay- This is not a universally accepted opinion. Nature is sufficient; there is no need to imagine more. Hmmm...I do want to explore this some more...perhaps I will sart a new thread... Posted by: Libertus Jan 28 2004, 03:40 PM QUOTE Greetings, I am Jay, and I am a Christian Hiii Jayy! Sorry, but this kind of sounded like an intro at a 12 Step meeting. Welcome to the forum! As has already been stated, civil christians are always welcome. If you're here to learn, then I am sure that you will. Enjoy your stay. Xpen Posted by: starstuff Jan 28 2004, 05:39 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 02:32 PM) QUOTE What do you mean "God is not the leader of Christianity"? Who is? That almost sounds like something a Deist would say -- that is, someone who believes in God but not in Christianity (or any other organized religion). But I think I must have misunderstood your intent, because you did say you are a Christian . . . Well, as I see it, the leaders of Christianity are a bunch of well known preachers. Many who claim Christ follow these leaders around as if they were mini-Messiahs. That bothers me. I follow Christ, not a hierarchy established by men. I trust God, and him alone. Christianity is a separate religion from what Christ taught. Thus, I reject the bulk of it and try to stick to what Christ actually taught... OK, that does clear things up. Thanks. BTW, what exactly is a binitarian? Someone who believes in 2 persons of the Deity, rather than 3? I've never heard of this before. Posted by: Jay Jan 28 2004, 10:48 PM QUOTE (starstuff @ Jan 28 2004, 05:39 PM) OK, that does clear things up. Thanks. BTW, what exactly is a binitarian? Someone who believes in 2 persons of the Deity, rather than 3? I've never heard of this before. There are a couple of dfferent versions of binitarianism out there. I believe there are two persons of the Godhead, The Father and the Son. I believe the Spirit is an extension of the Father, not a separate person...believe me, I have been called everythng from a heretic to an idolator for not believing in the three person God idea, but I can't really find any scriptural support for it. There is a remarkable amount of support for the two-person God, however. And the evidence is clear from the first century that the eaerly church did indeed worship two persons. There is also some remarkable evidence from the Hebrew scriptures that there were two separate persons, known then as Yahweh and the Angel of the Lord. Anyhow, that is a different topic altogether, and I would be happy to discuss it if you so wish. Posted by: Fweethawt Jan 29 2004, 12:01 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 02:27 PM) 7. Angels? They exist. 8. Demons? They also exist. I would like to hear what you might have to say to support these beliefs. I went from believing in them, to not believing in them. Then I read Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, and did a little research on the subject of "infra-sound". Now, I am fully convinced that they do exist but not in the mythical sense. It's more like the equivalent of hysterical ignorance and naturally induced hallucinations. Posted by: Jay Jan 29 2004, 12:29 AM QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Jan 29 2004, 12:01 AM) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 02:27 PM) 7. Angels? They exist. 8. Demons? They also exist. I would like to hear what you might have to say to support these beliefs. I went from believing in them, to not believing in them. Then I read Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, and did a little research on the subject of "infra-sound". Now, I am fully convinced that they do exist but not in the mythical sense. It's more like the equivalent of hysterical ignorance and naturally induced hallucinations. Forget about me...I want to hear more about what you have to say about them! I have never studied the topic in depth. However, I have seen enough stuff in my life to conclude that there are sometimes other forces at work that we cannot see. So, it seems that angels and demons are a reasonable enough conclusion to arrive at. Obviously, they cannot be proven, but so many things in life that we depend on cannot be proven, either. I believe they exist, but I also fascinated by some of the recent mind research out there, suggesting that there is something to psychokenesis...but again, that is an entirely different thread... Posted by: Tocis Jan 29 2004, 12:45 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 29 2004, 12:29 AM) I have never studied the topic in depth. However, I have seen enough stuff in my life to conclude that there are sometimes other forces at work that we cannot see. Agreed. QUOTE So, it seems that angels and demons are a reasonable enough conclusion to arrive at. Possibly... but not automatically. Supernatural != christian. QUOTE Obviously, they cannot be proven, but so many things in life that we depend on cannot be proven, either. I believe they exist, but I also fascinated by some of the recent mind research out there, suggesting that there is something to psychokenesis...but again, that is an entirely different thread... Yep, the supernatural is definitely the realm of belief, not proof. And as long as one is aware of that fact, there's no problem. Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 29 2004, 12:50 AM First of all, before I "throw down the gauntlet," as it were, welcome aboard. Always glad to have another reasonable, cooperative member among us, regardless of which side of the Xian fence you currently stand on. On to my proverbial gauntlet (a gentle one, of course); I don't mean this as an attack in any way, but.... QUOTE I have seen enough stuff in my life to conclude that there are sometimes other forces at work that we cannot see. I agree that there are forces at work which we cannot see. However, I'm curious as to why you seem to have decided upon concepts which are not only unproveable, but also--in essence--unknowable. We can't see gravity, but it is quite obviously at work in the world. Air currents, as well. Temperature too. The list goes on. Yet these are all scientifically observable phenomena, if indirectly. A lack of understanding on our part does not constitute supernatural phenomena on the universe's part. Perhaps I read you wrong. Would you care to enlighten me as to your views on the matter? Posted by: Fweethawt Jan 29 2004, 12:57 AM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 29 2004, 12:29 AM) QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Jan 29 2004, 12:01 AM) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 28 2004, 02:27 PM) 7. Angels? They exist. 8. Demons? They also exist. I would like to hear what you might have to say to support these beliefs. I went from believing in them, to not believing in them. Then I read Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, and did a little research on the subject of "infra-sound". Now, I am fully convinced that they do exist but not in the mythical sense. It's more like the equivalent of hysterical ignorance and naturally induced hallucinations. Forget about me...I want to hear more about what you have to say about them! I have never studied the topic in depth. However, I have seen enough stuff in my life to conclude that there are sometimes other forces at work that we cannot see. So, it seems that angels and demons are a reasonable enough conclusion to arrive at. Obviously, they cannot be proven, but so many things in life that we depend on cannot be proven, either. I believe they exist, but I also fascinated by some of the recent mind research out there, suggesting that there is something to psychokenesis...but again, that is an entirely different thread... I don't know if you've ever read Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World - Science as a Candle in the Dark, but he covers a very broad sweep in history all the way up to modern times showing how our "demons" have evolved along with us. How they are in our heads, and only in our heads. It pretty basically narrows it down to a lack of rational thought, and how easily people "believe" in things without in depth study. The "demons" are our way of projecting our own ignorance away from ourselves and wholeheartedly embracing an illusion placed into our minds by others. (gullability) I can't really put it into simple terms that I think you might understand. But if you ever get a chance to read that book, go for it. You will never look at the subject the same way again. On the subject of infra-sound, what I've found is that there is a level of sound, that is referred to as Super-bass, that changes our brain-waves to an extent to where we can "feel" a presence, or even see what we've come to call "apparitions". This is what I meant by natural hallucination. It is something that we do not completely understand, but it definitely points us away from what primitive man has taught us. Posted by: Jay Jan 29 2004, 09:35 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 29 2004, 12:50 AM) First of all, before I "throw down the gauntlet," as it were, welcome aboard. Always glad to have another reasonable, cooperative member among us, regardless of which side of the Xian fence you currently stand on. On to my proverbial gauntlet (a gentle one, of course); I don't mean this as an attack in any way, but.... QUOTE I have seen enough stuff in my life to conclude that there are sometimes other forces at work that we cannot see. I agree that there are forces at work which we cannot see. However, I'm curious as to why you seem to have decided upon concepts which are not only unproveable, but also--in essence--unknowable. We can't see gravity, but it is quite obviously at work in the world. Air currents, as well. Temperature too. The list goes on. Yet these are all scientifically observable phenomena, if indirectly. A lack of understanding on our part does not constitute supernatural phenomena on the universe's part. Perhaps I read you wrong. Would you care to enlighten me as to your views on the matter? Well, I was using the word 'see' in a broader sense meaning that we cannot completely define, study, or understand them. I think there are supernatural forces at work, and I am working on a new thread to that effect...it is just a text file right now, but look for it in the next week or so. By supernatural, I am referring to things that cannot be explained in terms of nature. But, if we can, let's save this discussion for a different thread so I can properly lay out my observations and position on this... Posted by: Jay Jan 29 2004, 09:38 PM QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Jan 29 2004, 12:57 AM) On the subject of infra-sound, what I've found is that there is a level of sound, that is referred to as Super-bass, that changes our brain-waves to an extent to where we can "feel" a presence, or even see what we've come to call "apparitions". This is what I meant by natural hallucination. It is something that we do not completely understand, but it definitely points us away from what primitive man has taught us. Interesting...I have read much about various scientific experiments with very low frequencies, including how they can disrupt weather patterns when projected into the atmosphere...I will have to look more into this... Posted by: Baby Eater Jan 29 2004, 09:48 PM "Well, I was using the word 'see' in a broader sense meaning that we cannot completely define, study, or understand them. I think there are supernatural forces at work, and I am working on a new thread to that effect...it is just a text file right now, but look for it in the next week or so. By supernatural, I am referring to things that cannot be explained in terms of nature. But, if we can, let's save this discussion for a different thread so I can properly lay out my observations and position on this..." Just give an example. PS:Weird coincidences are explained by probabilities. ;) Posted by: Fweethawt Jan 29 2004, 10:03 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 29 2004, 09:38 PM) QUOTE (Fweethawt @ Jan 29 2004, 12:57 AM) On the subject of infra-sound, what I've found is that there is a level of sound, that is referred to as Super-bass, that changes our brain-waves to an extent to where we can "feel" a presence, or even see what we've come to call "apparitions". This is what I meant by natural hallucination. It is something that we do not completely understand, but it definitely points us away from what primitive man has taught us. Interesting...I have read much about various scientific experiments with very low frequencies, including how they can disrupt weather patterns when projected into the atmosphere...I will have to look more into this... I don't think that the discovery of infra-sound was made through experiment. It's been a while since I looked at this but I vaguely remember something about the super-bass (inaudible) may originate from black-holes. If you wish to learn how mere (inaudible) sounds can change the brain frequency in order to achieve a physical affect. Look into Holosync Technologies. Posted by: Starflier Jan 31 2004, 05:34 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) God is not the leader of Christianity. So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. I do not have a lot of time to post here, but I will when I can. Hi Jay & welcome, I'm new here myself & an ex-christian/catholic for 37 years now with no intention of going back to it, ever. Still haven't figured out exactly what to call myself other than "Eclectic" or possibly Atheist or Humanist. Not sure though. Just a human being with my own intelligent beliefs like anyone else I guess, no other label needed. As someone else asked you, If the alleged "god" you speak of is not the leader ofthe christian myth/cult, then who or what is? For isn't christianity based on the original presumption of father god (jehovah/yahweh) & son god (jesus/yeshua) as one & the same? Jesus christ being "god" then? So if you still worship a god then that's what all Judeo-Christians & other religionists do in one form or another. Though many, like myself worship only The Goddess as Mother & Daughter Creatrix. Though GODdess can be applied to both genders as well as it contains "GOD" so neither is left out or excluded. But Goddess is to me also, the Feminine Principle in all cosmic & Earthly things as is the god as father & son creator the masculine principle. These are the polarities or "opposites", that go into the creation of all we know with other ingredients added along the way. At least the opposite polarities show up in the male deity relgions. In Christianity they are god & satan. But if god is male, the his opposite would be Goddess (female). But then many Christians have flat out told me that Goddess is Satan in drag. Some insult for all feminity, isn't it? The male (god) is all Good, the female (Goddess) is all evil/bad. Not such a nice feeling for any female is it? Nor for the feminine in all males from their mother's genes in them. Kind of like despising half of oneself,the evil half, isn't it? As for Nature, that's usually called "Mother Nature". I see that "Mother Nature" (The Goddess) is alive & well in everything cosmic, universal & material included. So again why is anything else necessary for things to exist besides Her? For Cosmic Goddess Mother Nature exists everywhere in the cosmos, planets, stars, you name it. And every father & son, jehovah & jesus included had a mother somewhere else they wouldn't exist & neither would you, me or anyone or anything else. Would they? So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Or in this case, the rooster's sperm or the hen's egg? The male sperm or female egg? Cosmic Mother Nature or father god? Btw, in case you're thinking of telling me that "god" has no gender well then Goddess has no gender either, all thing being equal, that is. But as long as the gender referencing language exists in English, Goddess is considered generally female. Since there is no other gender but male, god is male. Therefore to worship god is to worship the almighty male ego projected into everything in the cosmos with no room for the female at all except as a mere creature or thing created by god. So I just tossed him out of my mind's eye & thoughts as nonexistent years & years ago. Blessings, Starflier Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 31 2004, 07:41 PM Hi Jay, welcome to the board. Ok.....on to business You said: "I lost my faith completely at one point and was a millisquidgen away from becoming an atheist." Me: So what was it that made you decide to abandon reason and jump back on the faith bandwagon? Christianity to "almost atheistm" and back to Christianity again is a rather big swing of the pendulum. What happened? Posted by: ~Josalo~ Jan 31 2004, 08:08 PM QUOTE So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world examples please Posted by: Jay Feb 1 2004, 12:26 PM QUOTE (Starflier) QUOTE (Jay @ Jan 27 2004, 10:51 PM) God is not the leader of Christianity. So, I worship God. There seems to be no doubt that there is something other than nature at work in the world. I do not have a lot of time to post here, but I will when I can. As someone else asked you, If the alleged "god" you speak of is not the leader ofthe christian myth/cult, then who or what is? For isn't christianity based on the original presumption of father god (jehovah/yahweh) & son god (jesus/yeshua) as one & the same? Jesus christ being "god" then? I think I can best answer these questions with a story... Suppose someone came to your house and stole your hat and coat. Then, let's suppose that person, let's call her Lucy, went into town and broke into a jewelry store, wearing your hat and coat. Lucy stole as much jewelry she could carry, and went back to your house, leaving your hat and coat right where you had left them, with a few small pieces of jewelry in the pocket. The next day, you went into town wearing your hat and coat, and some recognized your hat and coat from the security camera video. They called the police and you were arrested. Your clothing matched the video, and the police found the gems in your pocket. You were then tried and convicted for a robbery you did not commit. As I have come to realize, Lucy did to you what Christians have done to God. They have stolen his clothing and his name and have committed all sorts of crimes and misdemeanors. Many people thought God was responsible, since these people came wearing his clothes. But, just as Lucy was a counterfeit Starflier, so Christianity is a counterfeit of what God desires. As far as the remainder of your post, God has no sex. Posted by: Jay Feb 1 2004, 12:28 PM QUOTE (PseudoGod @ Jan 31 2004, 07:41 PM) Hi Jay, welcome to the board. Ok.....on to business You said: "I lost my faith completely at one point and was a millisquidgen away from becoming an atheist." Me: So what was it that made you decide to abandon reason and jump back on the faith bandwagon? Christianity to "almost atheistm" and back to Christianity again is a rather big swing of the pendulum. What happened? Well, my faith is not the faith of the bandwagon. I am really not welcome in most evangelical circles, and I am ok with that. Honestly, I would say that my new found faith was the result of a renewal of reason, not the abandonment of it. Posted by: PseudoGod Feb 1 2004, 01:24 PM QUOTE (Jay @ Feb 1 2004, 12:28 PM) Well, my faith is not the faith of the bandwagon. I am really not welcome in most evangelical circles, and I am ok with that. Honestly, I would say that my new found faith was the result of a renewal of reason, not the abandonment of it. While I understand what you are saying, faith is faith, regardless of which flavor you choose. And one who has arrived at a conclusion based on faith has decidedly abondoned reason. I guess I am asking because it is hard for me to understand why someone would become atheist (or "almost atheist" in your case) and then swing back. It sounds like your "almost atheism" was the result of a struggle with faith, as opposed to a quest for truth based on reason. Is this correct? Posted by: Jay Feb 1 2004, 06:32 PM QUOTE (PseudoGod) QUOTE (Jay) Well, my faith is not the faith of the bandwagon. I am really not welcome in most evangelical circles, and I am ok with that. Honestly, I would say that my new found faith was the result of a renewal of reason, not the abandonment of it. While I understand what you are saying, faith is faith, regardless of which flavor you choose. And one who has arrived at a conclusion based on faith has decidedly abondoned reason. Hmmm...I think you may be looking at this in a somewhat skewed manner. While I happily admit that some of what I believe is based on faith alone, a lot of it is based on reason. I guess I do not see this conflict between faith and reason that you seem to. Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position. You must by faith believe there is no God, since you cannot prove it logically. However, I would never accuse an atheist of abandoning reason. The same would be said of an agnostic. With that position, the person holding it claims they do not know, but almost all agnostics I know have taken it even further than that, claiming that, not only do they not know, but that it is impossible for anyone to know. That seems to be an even broader leap of faith. Yet I would never say that an agnostic has abandoned reason. Several have identified themselves as deists. Have they abandoned reason as well? I guess that just seems like an awfully harsh statement to make to someone you do not know. I laid my arms down at the door, and have not come here attacking anyone or accusing anyone of not employing reason, yet you do this to me... QUOTE (PseudoGod) I guess I am asking because it is hard for me to understand why someone would become atheist (or "almost atheist" in your case) and then swing back. It sounds like your "almost atheism" was the result of a struggle with faith, as opposed to a quest for truth based on reason. Is this correct? No, it is not correct. Believe me, no one has ever searched for truth more diligently than me. I examined the evidence thoroughly. Let me give you some history: Whe I was a child, my mother took us around to numerous churches. We never really did settle in one, and I was exposed to a wide variety of belief. However, it was clear that they could not all be correct. So I did have a struggle with faith each time we went to a new church. However, when I left home and went to college, my struggle changed. I no longer went from church to church, in fact, I left church altogether. No one seemed to care, and I did not talk with my parents much anyway (my father is an agnostic). I had some questions, though, like 'why am I here', 'is life nothing mroe than living and dying', and 'did the entire world simply pop into existence'. There were also many more. I had myself nearly convinced that there was no God. In fact, Nietzsche had become one of my heroes. However, there were lingering questions that were hanging in my mind from Nietzsche's writings that simply didn't add up when compared to real life. One night, I stayed up all night reading (everythig but the Bible), thinking, and making some notes, and I concluded, through reason alone, that Nature is not the only force we are contending with in this life. I then went on to discover what the character of this other force is, and found God. I will be starting a new thread when I get it finished stepping down the path I walked. There definitely is faith involved in my faith, but it is not a reasonless faith, any more than atheism is a reasonless faith. I think it is rather inflammatory to tell someone they have abandoned reason when you have no basis - other than a general prejudice against anyone who believes a certain way, which in itself lacks reason - to make such an accusation. Read what I have to say, and then make your judgement. Posted by: PseudoGod Feb 1 2004, 09:19 PM Jay, You said: Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position Me: The existence of the tooth fairy cannot be disproven either, but I don't need faith to claim that the tooth fairy does not exist. I can say that based on nothing but reason. Jay: The same would be said of an agnostic. With that position, the person holding it claims they do not know, but almost all agnostics I know have taken it even further than that, claiming that, not only do they not know, but that it is impossible for anyone to know. That seems to be an even broader leap of faith Me: Jay, c'mon now. It doesn't take faith for someone to *not* know something. If I ask you if alien beings exist and you say "I don't know", are you honestly going to tell me it takes a great leap of faith to not know, even if you think it is impossible to know? Jay: I guess that just seems like an awfully harsh statement to make to someone you do not know. I laid my arms down at the door, and have not come here attacking anyone or accusing anyone of not employing reason, yet you do this to me... Me: I apologize if I sound like I am attacking, that is not my intent. As a person who used to be a Christian and has since stepped back and analyzed his former beliefs, I don't see how it is possible to reach a conclusion based on anything other than faith absent of reason. Since there is no logical proof that the Bible is true or that God even exists, when you say "alot of it is based on reason", I am going to be very skeptical, just as I would be of any other Christian making similar claims. Jay: I think it is rather inflammatory to tell someone they have abandoned reason when you have no basis - other than a general prejudice against anyone who believes a certain way, which in itself lacks reason - to make such an accusation. Me: Just for the record I have no prejudice whatsoever against Christians. My father and a couple of my friends are devout Christians and I have nothing but love and respect for all of them. So you might be sorta doing what you are accusing me of doing, do ya think? Anyway, back to reason. You said you read the entire Bible.....so what is your opinion on talking donkeys, talking snakes, flying horses, sticks turning into snakes, the earth standing still, the earth going backwards, burning bushes that don't burn, just to name a few. How is a belief in this reasonable? Do you believe all this stuff? And by the way, I do appreciate you taking the time to give your story. Again I am not trying to be mean, but you must understand that I have been in your shoes and believed the same thing as you....I was born into Christianity and was a Christian almost all my life. So, whatever I say is drawn from my own experience as a Christian. So again, I apologize if I sound harsh. John Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 1 2004, 09:37 PM QUOTE (Jay) Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position. You must by faith believe there is no God, since you cannot prove it logically. Sir, you've invoked "Label me an ignorant fundamentalist" clause #23: "Atheism requires just as much or more faith than theism." Please come with us and refrain from speaking until you've had the opportunity to learn and understand both sides of this discussion. Come on, Jay. You seem like a smart guy, so what gives with this obviously less-than-intelligent cliche invented by apologists in a desperate and pitiful attempt to criticize the lack of beliefs held by atheists as a counter to our criticism of your belief in an unproveable deity? You're playing the old apologetics game of shifting the burden of proof. The statement that a deity cannot be disproven is irrelevant. "Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence." You made the claim, so the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders. It doesn't take faith to withold belief in something for which there is little to no legitimate evidence. That is the default of human psychology. What does take faith is casting aside logic and skepticism and making that leap to believe in a deity in spite of the total lack of supporting evidence. How is that, in their alleged browsing of the forums before posting, most if not all the mission-Xians seem to miss these basic hallmarks of fundamentalism which we've all seen umpteen times? It's good that you don't make the claim that atheistshave abandoned reason, as it would be one of the most assenine accusations ever made. Most atheists do not abandon reason, they cling to it above all else. Again, it takes no faith to discard unworkable theories and concepts such as God and revealed religion. I agree that it is an opinionated belief held by some agnostics that it is impossible to know wether or not a deity exists. However it does have some basis in reason in that any deity presented in modern times by any group of people requires a leap of faith to be believable. The only faith Deists lay claim to is the existence of a Creator or Creative Force of some kind--and even this founding tenet of their religion is widely varied from Deist to Deist. Please don't start with the "pity-poor-me here in the spirit of learning and you all jump on me just like the pharisees did to Jebus." It's ill-suited to a geck of the intelligence we've perceived you to possess. QUOTE (Jay) Believe me, no one has ever searched for truth more diligently than me. And what do we have for him, Johnny? An industrial-size crock o' shit! This is rather a controversial and ignorant claim to be making, isn't it? After all, you've said yourself you're only human, so there's no possible way you could know how dilligently everyone alive today has searched for truth--let alone everyone ever to have existed. Would you care to supply us with an honest list of the various churches your mother attended and took you along for the ride to? Let me guess.... Baptist, protestant, presbyterian, catholic, lutheran, etc. Maybe Islam, Hindu, or Buddhism; but I doubt it. I'd say it's a safe bet she never took you to a Druidic grove, or attended a Wiccan coven. Nor, I imagine, did she teach you the heritage and encourage you to participate in a Native American ceremonial dance in tribute to their deity. How about Greek Pantheism? Asatru? Even run-o-the-mill Earth/Goddess worshipping paganism, how about that? I didn't think so. I'm with PseudoGod. Seems to me like you were on a theological and emotional roller coaster for many years, and after so long of not finding what you were looking for, you finally got fed up with it all and turned to near-atheism almost in rebellion against the system that had betrayed you. What is this mental complex Xians have declaring that we have to be at odds with the natural world? Most people aren't contending with nature at all, they're trying to find their place in it so they can coexist peacefully with the rest of the world. The only time one might interpret us as "contending" with nature is in the event of a natural disaster. Even then, it's not like nature's out to get us, it's just following it's course and we happen to be in it's path. In closing, once again, atheism is not a faith! "If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease." Posted by: meizonmouei Feb 1 2004, 09:46 PM Jay, let me give you a perspective i come from to show you what other things there are to think in this world...these are just my ideas, not truth of course: i understand where you're coming from and have been there myself before. your mind is pushing you in a certain direction, and being aware of that might help you. you probably rejected a few ideas here and there, then eventually rejected what you see as established religion, and soon enough this momentum will no doubt throw you off the other edge. it may seem scary now, but it is so beautiful to be free and let the real possibilities of the universe still be completely open. what's funny is the question of whether rejecting christianity is the same as atheism. as a christian, you have already rejected scores of thousands of gods that have been created and worshiped and still are in all the world. you are not afraid of their hells and desirous of their heavens because you have not had them hammered into your head as mechanisms for giving your life meaning and keeping yourself in line, because you are an American and that's "our" religion...the one that still "feels" real to so many people here. take a look at history. the jewish people begins writing very late in history, a tradition which is well predated by others with the same principals, laws, and even stories. the noah's ark story is mirrored in the Sumerian flood story. Even the name sometimes used for god in the old testament "El" is borrowed from a semitic group that came after the Sumerians. We are talking about one to three thousand years before any people called "Israel" even exist. They have a god which travels around in a box (an egyptian idea) and helps them win wars. He also kills, and allows murder and in some cases, rape. He repeatedly "tricks" people to think the wrong thing, and "hardens hearts" to blind people to the truth, thus dooming them. why have you chosen such a silly, copied war god from a small group of semitic ancients to be the one you hold up and say, "if not him, then no god at all".? study history, learn greek and hebrew, but only if you want to see the truth. people in all religions and even atheists have strange coincidences, healings and seeming miracles happen every day. look around you and ask! we have a little bit of luck, take it very personally, and suddenly, there's a being in the sky helping us. why does he not help sometimes? and why does he sometimes help the evil? why isn't it consistent?...because it's chance. people develop ritual for high-stress situations, and always have. baseball batters still kiss crucifixes and have little rituals, while other players simply go out on the field and do well...because batting is far less consistent and recourse to magic is the only psychological help available. in south america, there was a tribe that, as they got farther out to sea on fishing expeditions, had more ritual, sacrifice and complicated rites...because they were in more risk. we all face the same certain danger: our death, the loss of our ego, which we can't imagine. it is around this principle that we have developed systems that say we can preserve our ego forever, and have pleasure too, because of sacrifice, ritual, books, etc. and we all pretend it's working to make ourselves feel better. the truth is, there is always another explanation for everything, and as a being born with no knowledge, i am simply not equipped to make a judgment on where the universe came from and how based on what i have. and certainly, if there was a truth, it would be more than a copied, unoriginal story of a death and rebirth so that i can have pleasure forever while others are tortured who never even asked to exist. can you be in heaven knowing some are in hell? of all religions to pick and run with, why such a contradictory, ineffective one? is it really more than the fact that it is all you know that assures you the one thing it knows it can get some ass-kissing out of? i only wrote so much because i feel for you. my apologies to everyone on the thread... Posted by: PseudoGod Feb 1 2004, 10:04 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 1 2004, 09:37 PM) It's good that you don't make the claim that atheistshave abandoned reason, as it would be one of the most assenine accusations ever made. Haha, I can't even imagine the number of nasty posts a person would get if they claimed that atheists have abandoned reason. Hopefully nobody will make that mistake. Posted by: PseudoGod Feb 1 2004, 10:06 PM QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 1 2004, 09:37 PM) It's good that you don't make the claim that atheistshave abandoned reason, as it would be one of the most assenine accusations ever made. Haha, I can't even imagine the number of nasty posts a person would get if they claimed that atheists have abandoned reason. Hopefully nobody will make that mistake. Posted by: chefranden Feb 1 2004, 10:12 PM QUOTE (Jay) Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position. You must by faith believe there is no God, since you cannot prove it logically. However, I would never accuse an atheist of abandoning reason. Your assertion is slightly incorrect. Allow me to help by correcting it for you. The existence of a god cannot be disproven. It is a great leap to go from that to christian god. Unfortunantly for you, christian god is easily disproven. Posted by: Jay Feb 2 2004, 07:18 AM QUOTE (PseudoGod) You said: Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position Me: The existence of the tooth fairy cannot be disproven either, but I don't need faith to claim that the tooth fairy does not exist. I can say that based on nothing but reason. Really? Then, seriously, please lay out your syllogistic argument that the tooth fairy does not exist. I am not talking here about determining whether the tooth fairy replaces teeth with money. I am simply asking you to provide an argument against the existence of the tooth fairy that is based only in reason. It seems to me that, if you can't prove it logically, you have moved into the area of belief. On the issue of the tooth fairy, I share your belief, but that does not make it a belief based on reason alone. However, I will be interested in seeing your argument... QUOTE (PseudoGod) Jay: The same would be said of an agnostic. With that position, the person holding it claims they do not know, but almost all agnostics I know have taken it even further than that, claiming that, not only do they not know, but that it is impossible for anyone to know. That seems to be an even broader leap of faith Me: Jay, c'mon now. It doesn't take faith for someone to *not* know something. If I ask you if alien beings exist and you say "I don't know", are you honestly going to tell me it takes a great leap of faith to not know, even if you think it is impossible to know? No, it takes great faith to say to someone that it is impossible for anyone to know whether God exists or not...that is what I was referring to... QUOTE (PseudoGod) Me: I apologize if I sound like I am attacking, that is not my intent. As a person who used to be a Christian and has since stepped back and analyzed his former beliefs, I don't see how it is possible to reach a conclusion based on anything other than faith absent of reason. Since there is no logical proof that the Bible is true or that God even exists, when you say "alot of it is based on reason", I am going to be very skeptical, just as I would be of any other Christian making similar claims. Very well! Skepticism is great. I am an eternal skeptic. Much will be explained in the next thread I start... QUOTE (PseudoGod) Anyway, back to reason. You said you read the entire Bible.....so what is your opinion on talking donkeys, talking snakes, flying horses, sticks turning into snakes, the earth standing still, the earth going backwards, burning bushes that don't burn, just to name a few. How is a belief in this reasonable? Do you believe all this stuff? Well, some of the things you mentioned above are taken from allegorical passages, and some are claimed to be miracles. I suppose that all depends on whether or not it is possible for a miracle to occur. I will be addressing this as well... Posted by: Jay Feb 2 2004, 07:44 AM QUOTE ("woodsmoke") QUOTE (Jay) Since the existence of God cannot be disproven, it would appear to me that there is a certain type of faith that must be employed to take that position. You must by faith believe there is no God, since you cannot prove it logically. Sir, you've invoked "Label me an ignorant fundamentalist" clause #23: "Atheism requires just as much or more faith than theism." Please come with us and refrain from speaking until you've had the opportunity to learn and understand both sides of this discussion. Come on, Jay. You seem like a smart guy, so what gives with this obviously less-than-intelligent cliche invented by apologists in a desperate and pitiful attempt to criticize the lack of beliefs held by atheists as a counter to our criticism of your belief in an unproveable deity? ... It doesn't take faith to withold belief in something for which there is little to no legitimate evidence. That is the default of human psychology. What does take faith is casting aside logic and skepticism and making that leap to believe in a deity in spite of the total lack of supporting evidence. ... Hmmm...sorry to bore you with a cliche. I guess I will need to get the book and see what the previous 22 are so I can avoid them as well. However, it cannot be denied that believing that there is no God requires something other than reason, since that cannot be proven. Atheism is more than simply a lack of belief in God. Atheism is an affirmative denial of the existence of God. A denial which cannot be proven and certainly requires some faith to accept. It seems to me that merely withholding belief in a deity is the agnostic position, and hey, if someone does not know, or the evidence does not seem adequate, so be it. They do not know. However, as I mentioned before, some agnostics take it step further and insist that no one can know. Again, that is an unproveable assertion. So, while you may simply dismiss my statement as being cliche, there is a degree of faith employed in either affirmatively denying the existence of God or insisting that no one can know. QUOTE ("woodsmoke") You're playing the old apologetics game of shifting the burden of proof. The statement that a deity cannot be disproven is irrelevant. "Extraordinary claims required extraordinary evidence." You made the claim, so the burden of proof rests squarely on your shoulders. Indeed, and I intend to carry the full burden of the load. QUOTE ("woodsmoke") How is that, in their alleged browsing of the forums before posting, most if not all the mission-Xians seem to miss these basic hallmarks of fundamentalism which we've all seen umpteen times? Hmmm...perhaps you should define fundamentalist... QUOTE ("woodsmoke") It's good that you don't make the claim that atheists have abandoned reason, as it would be one of the most assenine accusations ever made. Most atheists do not abandon reason, they cling to it above all else. Again, it takes no faith to discard unworkable theories and concepts such as God and revealed religion. Your correct. However, it seems that it does take some degree of faith to affirmatively assert, "Not only do I discard that unworkable theory, but I insist that there is NO theory that is workable". QUOTE ("woodsmoke") Please don't start with the "pity-poor-me here in the spirit of learning and you all jump on me just like the pharisees did to Jebus." It's ill-suited to a geck of the intelligence we've perceived you to possess. hehe...not looking for pity...just trying to keep things civil. I am trying to avoid calling people names and making accusations, and I ask for the same in return. If you want to attack my belief, live it up. There is no need, however, for personal attack... QUOTE ("woodsmoke") QUOTE (Jay) Believe me, no one has ever searched for truth more diligently than me. And what do we have for him, Johnny? An industrial-size crock o' shit! This is rather a controversial and ignorant claim to be making, isn't it? After all, you've said yourself you're only human, so there's no possible way you could know how dilligently everyone alive today has searched for truth--let alone everyone ever to have existed. Mental note: Do not use hyperbole when posting messages here... QUOTE ("woodsmoke") Would you care to supply us with an honest list of the various churches your mother attended and took you along for the ride to? Let me guess.... Baptist, protestant, presbyterian, catholic, lutheran, etc. Maybe Islam, Hindu, or Buddhism; but I doubt it. You know, it was a long time ago, but I remember that one, in particular, used to view episodes of Star Trek for spiritual guidance as part of their worship services... QUOTE ("woodsmoke") In closing, once again, atheism is not a faith! "If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease." Wow! I thought only fundamentalists used cli |