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ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > God The Terrible Tyrant!
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 1 2004, 02:17 AM
As a Christian, I come across many different ideas of who God is.
People will say, "I like to think of God as...(fill in the blank)." Or, "I believe God is...(fill in the blank, again)."
The truth is, I always want to reply with, "When did you become an authority on God?"
I can see it now, "OH YEAH JAY, when did YOU become an authority on God? HUH?!"
I'll answer it right now by saying that I am not - but I believe the Bible is. And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him. With this being said, I also want to add that I've never come here claiming to know it all. I'm still learning just like everybody else.
Now, back to the subject at hand: God.
Being a Christian, I've also been asked several times about the nature of God; why He did certain things, why bad things happen to good people, why there's so much war started in His name, etc. etc. Well, the purpose of this post is to begin to take a closer look at these Biblical references to these difficult topics.
Primarily I'd like to look at the apparently perceived Biblical references to genocide, rape and mistreatment of women, and slavery. These were brought up in a different post by my friend Chefranden (thanks Chef), and I'd like to provide answers.
However, due to my limited time (and the fact that it's currently after 2:00AM here), I'll be posting the first answer regarding GENOCIDE in my next post. It'll be in this thread, but it'll have it's own post. This will hopefully make the reading aspect easier for everybody, (and it'll allow me to get some sleep in the meantime).
So until then, I'll say that I'm looking forward to the discussions we'll have. Good night everybody!
Our first destination: GENOCIDE - The first "Terrible Topic" to be addressed.
Love, peace, and all good things to all of you,
Jay
Posted by: Doug2 Feb 1 2004, 02:36 AM
Jay, you can use the bible as a reference to god as soon as you prove the bible is the word of god and not man. Do that and you have us. Muslims could say the same thing, native americans can say their ideas of spirits are the true identity. Why is the bible correct? Many of us believe the problems in the bible help solidify our belief that it is not the word of god.
Telling us these things are ok since the bible says they are ok, does not help. First you must prove the bible.
Posted by: Fweethawt Feb 1 2004, 02:49 AM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 1 2004, 02:17 AM)
Our first destination: GENOCIDE - The first "Terrible Topic" to be addressed.
I've got a better idea. Instead of starting with GENOCIDE - The first "Terrible Topic" , I would say that a good place to start would be with:
The planting of the "Tree of Knowledge", why it was a sin to eat of its "fruit", and why the supposed "Creator" of that tree was completely ignorant about the effects that it would have on his very first "children".
After all, he should have known that genocide would have been an inevitability if it was not for the entrance of sin in the world. (an entrance that He, and He only, provided. Unless I'm completely ignorant?)
Posted by: 603269726 Feb 1 2004, 04:09 AM
Posted by: Ms CD Feb 1 2004, 08:53 AM
My Dad chose this one to comment on:
QUOTE
but I believe the Bible is. And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him.
Unfortunately, you probably have never really examined the history of yor "holy script", how it came to be, when it came to be, how it was faked from the very start, how most of it was written after the fact and how few of the attributed authors were actually the authors (even your Christ Cultist scholars buy that information). You have probably not looked at the sum total of your Cult's early history and how it came to be! If you had, you probably would be a non-believer.
(I haven't figured out how to put his bouncy smiley at the end - sorry) otherwise i think i did a good cut and paste from his email -Ms CD
Posted by: TruthWarrior Feb 1 2004, 09:38 AM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 1 2004, 06:17 AM)
I'll answer it right now by saying that I am not - but I believe the Bible is. And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him. With this being said, I also want to add that I've never come here claiming to know it all. I'm still learning just like everybody else.
= "Don't shoot the messenger." OK, no problem. But don't expect people to be happy if you support "god ordained" genocide.
Posted by: PseudoGod Feb 1 2004, 10:16 AM
QUOTE (Ms CD @ Feb 1 2004, 08:53 AM)
You have probably not looked at the sum total of your Cult's early history and how it came to be! If you had, you probably would be a non-believer.
Ms CD,
This is what finally did it for me. In fact a several weeks ago Discovery Channel had a six hour special on the Bible and how it came to be what we know today. When I saw that, it just confirmed what I already suspected..... the Bible we know today is nothing like what early Christians believed. There were to things that stood out to me most:
1. The Book of Enoch - Was widely accepted as being God inspired in early Xianity. The book told of angels coming to earth and having sex with human women, who bore half man/half angel giants. These giants supposedly roamed the earth. It was not included in the Bible as we know it today because of the subject matter. The point is that the church would pick and choose which "god inspired" books were more "believable" to them and went with those.
2. End Times - There are actually two known versions of end times, The Revelation of John and the Apocolypse of Peter. One of the main reasons Revelation of John was incorporated into our Bible today over Apocolypse was that the apocolypse version talked of universalism (the salvation of the world) over a fire and brimstone hell. The church chose eternal hell over universalism, because they believed the wicked should be punished, not saved. Hmm, who cares what God really intended, huh?
And I guess there are hundreds of other books in the dead sea scrolls that were widely accepted and believed in early Xianity that were not incorporated into the Bible we know now, simply because the authoritarian church decided they didn't fit into their traditions and world view. There was much more than this, but these stood out to me.
I wish everyone could have seen the Discovery Channel program, it was an eye opener simply because it showed how much more evidence is out there that suggests the Bible is so much ancient mythology.....
Posted by: TexasFreethinker Feb 1 2004, 10:33 AM
Just a few examples of genocide ordered by god. Of course some of the biggest incidents include the flood and passover and those were entirely at god's own hand.
QUOTE
Joshua 6:17 “The city and all that is in it, shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction”. And in verse 21, which was the next verse after the end of the section we read: “ Then they devoted to destruction by the edge of the sword all in the city, both men and women, young and old, oxen, sheep and donkeys”.
Genocide is defined nowadays by the United Nations as follows:
QUOTE
acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group
It is regarded by the signatories of the Genocide Convention as
QUOTE
a crime under international law, contrary to the spirit and aims of the United Nations and condemned by the civilized world
What many modern-day readers of the Bible rightly find perplexing and distressing is that these acts of genocide are commanded by God. The destruction of Jericho is only one of many examples of genocide commanded by God in the Old Testament.
To pick another example, one of many, we read in 1 Samuel 15 where Samuel is giving King Saul the a message from God:
QUOTE
“Thus says the Lord of hosts, “I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelities when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”.
Now Saul did this, he wiped out the Amalekites utterly except that he spared the king and kept some livestock he fancied. For this, ie for not carrying out total destruction King Saul was punished by God and lost his job as King to David – even though he tried to put things right later by hacking the king of the Amalekites to pieces “before the Lord”.
Posted by: moorezw Feb 1 2004, 02:27 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 1 2004, 05:17 AM)
I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him.
JayS8NT-
We can read, too. That's why we're here.
We're also very patient with Christian arrogance. That's why you're here.
Posted by: Farasha Feb 1 2004, 02:40 PM
Ok Jay, so you're saying that, since God is all-powerful and the originator of morality, who are WE to look at him and judge his actions as immoral???
Well my question for you is, if all morality comes from God, then why is it that I look at the instances of God-ordained rape and genocide and murder in the Bible, and I think they are immoral? Where did this definition of immorality that I hold come from, if not from God?
You'll probably most likely reply that I view certain actions of God as immoral because I am perverting God's original definition of morality with my hopelessly flawed mind. So in essence, my view of God's actions as immoral is sinful. Is this right? Is it sinful to look at genocide and say, "that's wrong"???
What you're getting into is theonomy: the idea that the only definition of morality is that which is in accordance with God's will. By that definition, God can never be immoral, even if he murders millions of people, because he is acting according to his will.
Right away, it becomes apparent that theonomy is very ugly. God could make murder, rape, genocide, and theft moral and love, kindness, honesty, integrity wrong. If such a god existed, I would have no desire to serve him.
Posted by: fortunehooks Feb 1 2004, 03:01 PM
How very sweet? Another person who has supreme confidence
in the invisible. Your holy trash book is full of fables and tall tales. The Tower of Babel being one of those tall tales.
Many more fables,but i won't name those yet i'd like to see you research those yourself.
Posted by: Shadfox Feb 1 2004, 03:13 PM
QUOTE
And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him.
Those would be my exact words, Jay. I base my opinion of "god" strictly by "his" actions in the Bible, which are deplorable in the least. Now, I know there's some verses that say he's loving and just and you'll recommend I read those and forget the rest, but those verses don't undo the wickedness of the xian god concept. At best, it shows "he's" a complete hypocrite.
Since you think everything "god" does is perfect and just, why don't you print out these stories for your children to color?
http://www.alternativebiblestories.com/
I have a feeling that was Jay's last post.
Posted by: Matthew Feb 1 2004, 04:06 PM
QUOTE
Unfortunately, you probably have never really examined the history of yor "holy script", how it came to be, when it came to be, how it was faked from the very start, how most of it was written after the fact and how few of the attributed authors were actually the authors (even your Christ Cultist scholars buy that information). You have probably not looked at the sum total of your Cult's early history and how it came to be! If you had, you probably would be a non-believer.
(I haven't figured out how to put his bouncy smiley at the end - sorry) otherwise i think i did a good cut and paste from his email -Ms CD
Ms CD, are you a daughter of a beloved poster of ours? Any relation to Consummate Deist?
Matthew
Posted by: Matthew Feb 1 2004, 04:13 PM
QUOTE
People will say, "I like to think of God as...(fill in the blank)." Or, "I believe God is...(fill in the blank, again)."
The truth is, I always want to reply with, "When did you become an authority on God?"
Why do you feel the need to ask them when they became an authority on "God"? The above statements are simply expressing an opinion and one need not be an authory in any subject, divinity or not, to form an opinion.
QUOTE
I'll answer it right now by saying that I am not - but I believe the Bible is. And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him. With this being said, I also want to add that I've never come here claiming to know it all. I'm still learning just like everybody else.
You may not consider yourself an authority but you're making authoritive statements based on what you believe to be an authoritive source. I don't think you're learning like everyone else. You strike me as thinking that you have all the answers in the holy book you live your life by. You might try to come across humbly but you've already vested your trust in a source that claims to be authortive. What supports your statements about God and his character from the Bible? You can't just presume the truth of the Bible in here. Very few agree with you and you're going to have a tought time here if you expect that to be a given in any dialouge on this website.
Matthew
Posted by: Erik the Awful Feb 1 2004, 04:34 PM
Jay,
There are lots of logical people who have already posted to this thread, so I'll take the emotional tack...
If you worship and defend the God described in the Bible, you condone racially motivated genocide, murder, and rape as long your God says its OK.
Most people who act that way in this society end up in prison.
With Gods like yours, who needs demons?
Posted by: Starflier Feb 1 2004, 05:02 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 1 2004, 02:17 AM)
As a Christian, I come across many different ideas of who God is.
I believe the Bible is. And any of my statements about God, and His character, have been supported and come strictly from that source. I'm not an authority, but I can read and relay what the Bible says about Him. With this being said, I also want to add that I've never come here claiming to know it all. I'm still learning just like everybody else.
Now, back to the subject at hand: God.
Hi Jay,
I'm an exChristian for some 37 years now & fairly new on these forums myself. Welcome. I have many question for you to answer so please do inform me.
The subject matter is "God" (male deity) you stated. For whom you said the Bible writers are your authority on "his" (male deity) existence. So you're a Bible worshipper eh? You worship the words written a book? So you worship the ideas in a book? So you worship the images in your imagination, your mind's eye that form inside you conjured up from the words you read in the Bible?
Do you always believe all the words written by book authors? Especially those of thousands of years old long dead men? Are ancient, dead book writers always your authority figures?
Do you always consult the writings of long dead men to make current major life decisions & form your beliefs about everything ongoing in your life? Do you always believe that long dead men had a more direct communication line with the source of creation than you, I or anyone else ever had? Do you think they knew or experienced a creating source at all or if there ever was a creating source at all?
How would you or they know of any source without direct contact or personal experience of it? Why take their word about their personal experience or contact with whatever they thought was any sort of source of creation? Do you think they they there "In the beginning" as they stated? Do you think they had any more experience or direct knowledge of a beginning at all? Or if there ever was a beginning? Why would you think they would know there was a beginning anymore than you, I or anyone else would know of a beginning of creation as we know it?
Do you think those long dead men were wiser, smarter or had more brainy intellience than you, I or anyone else has or had? Do you think those long dead men's life experience was any better or more valid, meaningful or purposeful than yours, mine or anyone else's?
Do you ever read the writings of any other global cultural creation myths written by their long dead writers/thinkers or of those of currently living writers/thinkers? What makes you think those long dead men's writing/thinking was any better, wiser, more truthful or more knowledgeable than any currently living person's is?
What's the difference in the validity of those other global cultures' long dead people's writings or thoughts or ideas than those of the Bible writers? What's the difference in the validity of any currently living writers/thinkers ideas or words than those of any other long dead persons or people?
Why would any of them have any more validity or truth than to it than any others or to you, me or anyone else who ever lived? Why would the existence & experience of any global cultural writers/thinkers about anything at all related to creation or existence or the whys, wherefores or reasons for any of it be any more wise or knowing or experienced or valid than any one else's, including you, me or anyone else now alive?
After you've answered these question, we can continue with more.
Starflier
Posted by: michelle Feb 1 2004, 06:29 PM
that was very real.
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 2 2004, 04:34 PM
Hi everybody,
Contrary to what Shadfox said:
QUOTE
I have a feeling that was Jay's last post.
I will be posting soon - just haven't had the time. Most of you know I don't have online access at home yet, so I either come to work early and begin typing, or have to post during lunch or after work.
Thanks for all the replies. And thank you also for your patience!
Jay
Posted by: Starflier Feb 2 2004, 05:53 PM
QUOTE (michelle @ Feb 1 2004, 06:29 PM)
that was very real.
Thanx, Michelle,
It oughtta keep him busy thinking it over anyway.
Posted by: Reality Amplifier Feb 2 2004, 09:33 PM
Maybe before you try offering your interpretation and providing justifying answers to anything in the bible, you should probably first establish that the bible holds authority. If you want any of your explanations to hold any weight, the Bible itself must first be proved true (and the true word of God). This is kind of important, because if the Bible is not true, or the truth of it is doubtful, it ceases to have authority, and your efforts become quite pointless.
I could use the J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of The Rings to argue that there were (and maybe are) really Orcs, Elves, and there was a Frodo…and my arguments and explanations would hold the same validity as any “explanations” you provide for stories in the bible.
Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Feb 2 2004, 09:56 PM
Frodo Lives!
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 09:32 AM
Hi RA,
QUOTE
Maybe before you try offering your interpretation and providing justifying answers to anything in the bible, you should probably first establish that the bible holds authority. If you want any of your explanations to hold any weight, the Bible itself must first be proved true (and the true word of God). This is kind of important, because if the Bible is not true, or the truth of it is doubtful, it ceases to have authority, and your efforts become quite pointless.
I could use the J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of The Rings to argue that there were (and maybe are) really Orcs, Elves, and there was a Frodo…and my arguments and explanations would hold the same validity as any “explanations” you provide for stories in the bible.
Point taken - maybe I should. But the idea behind this thread was to attempt to destroy some of the preconceived opinions of these apparent stories (genocide, rape, etc.). The point wasn't to "prove" a story one way or another, true or not true. The point was to look deeper into these stories and see what's really happening.
I've just seen a lot of misconceptions and opinions about what the Bible teaches about these topics. I was out to set the record straight so to speak.
Hi Starflier,
Welcome to the board. Contrary to what you may have thought, your questions weren't really much to think about. I've just been busy, and I've also been considering whether or not to answer them.
There are some here (myself included) that post questions in a way that request an answer for the purpose of learning, growing, or really seeking an answer. There are others that post in a way that portrays an intention of causing trouble, promoting pride, or simply just to be difficult. They have no intention of learning. They have no desire to look at the answers objectively.
I'm interested to see which of these descriptions will fit your intentions best.
With that being said, my answers to your many questions are as follows:
QUOTE
The subject matter is "God" (male deity) you stated. For whom you said the Bible writers are your authority on "his" (male deity) existence. So you're a Bible worshipper eh? You worship the words written a book? So you worship the ideas in a book? So you worship the images in your imagination, your mind's eye that form inside you conjured up from the words you read in the Bible?
No. Not a Bible worshipper. I don't worship the words. I don't worship the ideas. I don't worship my imagination.
I worship God, as He has defined Himself to us by way of His word. The subject of the words - not the words themself.
Do you always believe all the words written by book authors? Especially those of thousands of years old long dead men? Are ancient, dead book writers always your authority figures?
QUOTE
Do you always consult the writings of long dead men to make current major life decisions & form your beliefs about everything ongoing in your life?
No. Although I do believe the Bible provides answers to all of lifes major questions. I consult with God.
QUOTE
Do you always believe that long dead men had a more direct communication line with the source of creation than you, I or anyone else ever had? Do you think they knew or experienced a creating source at all or if there ever was a creating source at all?
I believe that God has the ability to communicate to any of us, in any way He wants. Whether it's "more" or less direct isn't really the issue. Either the Spirit of God worked through the writers, or the Spirit didn't.
Based on what the Bible is comprised of, how it was written, and the proof's that confirm its authority, I believe it is as it says: "God-breathed."
QUOTE
How would you or they know of any source without direct contact or personal experience of it? Why take their word about their personal experience or contact with whatever they thought was any sort of source of creation? Do you think they they there "In the beginning" as they stated? Do you think they had any more experience or direct knowledge of a beginning at all? Or if there ever was a beginning? Why would you think they would know there was a beginning anymore than you, I or anyone else would know of a beginning of creation as we know it?
God did have direct interaction with them by way of His Spirit. God also had direct interaction by way of speaking to them. God also had direct interaction by walking among them.
QUOTE
Do you think those long dead men were wiser, smarter or had more brainy intellience than you, I or anyone else has or had?
No. God consistently uses "ordinary" people for His extraordinary purposes. It was no different then, than it is now.
QUOTE
Do you think those long dead men's life experience was any better or more valid, meaningful or purposeful than yours, mine or anyone else's?
Depends. More "better, valid, meaningful, or purposeful" by who's definition? If you're looking for my own opinion on it, I'd have to say no. The same life is available to anyone who wants it. God doesn't give one believer a "bigger/better" purpose than another. The difference is whether or not we know and use our purpose.
QUOTE
Do you ever read the writings of any other global cultural creation myths written by their long dead writers/thinkers or of those of currently living writers/thinkers? What makes you think those long dead men's writing/thinking was any better, wiser, more truthful or more knowledgeable than any currently living person's is?
Yes. I've read and studied many other theories regarding the origin of life. The second part of your questions can be answered the same as many of your others: Divine intervention.
QUOTE
What's the difference in the validity of those other global cultures' long dead people's writings or thoughts or ideas than those of the Bible writers? What's the difference in the validity of any currently living writers/thinkers ideas or words than those of any other long dead persons or people?
See above.
QUOTE
Why would any of them have any more validity or truth than to it than any others or to you, me or anyone else who ever lived?
If the same "truth" is presented, it doesn't make their "truth" more or less valid. If there is a contrary "truth" presented or suggested, it would depend on the evidence that can support it. Otherwise, it's not "truth" at all - but rather, opinion, theory, philosophy, religion, idea, etc.
QUOTE
Why would the existence & experience of any global cultural writers/thinkers about anything at all related to creation or existence or the whys, wherefores or reasons for any of it be any more wise or knowing or experienced or valid than any one else's, including you, me or anyone else now alive?
See above.
Jay
Posted by: Redshift Feb 3 2004, 10:25 AM
Okay, enough dilly-dallying already. I want to hear Jay's justification for YHWH's genocidal streak.
Jay?
Posted by: Reality Amplifier Feb 3 2004, 11:21 AM
Jay:
If you don’t fist establish that there is sufficient authority for believing the Bible to be the word of God, your explanations of the more ghastly parts of the bible just become your own subjective interpreting readings.
However, if want to just plow ahead and give your interpretive reads and justifications for the horrible accounts of slaughter in the bible anyways, ask yourself if these shocking tales could have really be done at the express command of God. There are events reported that are as shocking to humanity, as the events of 9/11; Hitler’s Holocaust; Slobodan Milosevic’s ethnic cleansing, etc.
The books attributed to Moses, Joshua, etc. report that the Israelites rained death upon whole nations of people. The books report that God commanded killings, including women and children. The books report that they spared neither age nor infancy. The utterly destroyed men, women and children. They left not a soul to breathe. Are you so sure that the Creator of man really commanded those things to be done?
Without first establishing that those books were written by his authority, where rests your certitude or authority in providing justifications for those purported events?
Keep in mind the antiquity of a story does not necessarily make the story true. Neither does a history of people believing in the story necessarily make it true. All we have are indications that the people who promoted the stories believed they were true. Man has held and promoted erroneous notions before. Man has also believed that the earth was flat, and that the sun orbited the earth.
To believe the Bible to be true word of God, and to accept whatever the pending explanations you will provide to justify the murders, rapes, and slaughtering of pregnant women and smiling/crying children and infants (and even animals), we must drastically alter or give up our beliefs in the moral justice of God.
Best Regards,
RA
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 01:22 PM
QUOTE
Okay, enough dilly-dallying already. I want to hear Jay's justification for YHWH's genocidal streak.
Redshift - your request has been heard! Although it doesn't come from an intent of "justification" but rather, the intent to understand.
Here are some insights as to WHY God commanded Israel to destroy certain inhabitants of other nations – We’ll look at the story of Canaan in particular here.
Leviticus 18:
1Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: "I am the LORD your God. 3According to the doings of the land of Egypt, where you dwelt, you shall not do; and according to the doings of the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you, you shall not do; nor shall you walk in their ordinances. 4You shall observe My judgments and keep My ordinances, to walk in them: I am the LORD your God. 5You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, which if a man does, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.
6"None of you shall approach anyone who is near of kin to him, to uncover his nakedness: I am the LORD. 7The nakedness of your father or the nakedness of your mother you shall not uncover. She is your mother; you shall not uncover her nakedness. 8The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness. 9The nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father, or the daughter of your mother, whether born at home or elsewhere, their nakedness you shall not uncover. 10The nakedness of your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter, their nakedness you shall not uncover; for theirs is your own nakedness. 11The nakedness of your father's wife's daughter, begotten by your father--she is your sister--you shall not uncover her nakedness. 12You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's sister; she is near of kin to your father. 13You shall not uncover the nakedness of your mother's sister, for she is near of kin to your mother. 14You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father's brother. You shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. 15You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law--she is your son's wife--you shall not uncover her nakedness. 16You shall not uncover the nakedness of your brother's wife; it is your brother's nakedness. 17You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness. 18Nor shall you take a woman as a rival to her sister, to uncover her nakedness while the other is alive.
19"Also you shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness as long as she is in her customary impurity. 20Moreover you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, to defile yourself with her. 21And you shall not let any of your descendants pass through the fire to Molech, nor shall you profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 22You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
24"Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27(for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30"Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God."'
This is particularly interesting: Deuteronomy 9:
1 "Hear, O Israel: You are to cross over the Jordan today, and go in to dispossess nations greater and mightier than yourself, cities great and fortified up to heaven, 2a people great and tall, the descendants of the Anakim, whom you know, and of whom you heard it said, "Who can stand before the descendants of Anak?' 3Therefore understand today that the LORD your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the LORD has said to you.
4"Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, "Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land'; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you. 5It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6Therefore understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.
It seems to me that NO ONE – not even Israel – was exempt from God's execution of justice in the days preceding the cross. In fact, no other nation underwent more trials, more death, and more destruction than that of God's own nation of Israel! When Israel would disobey, God would have other nations attack them. The purpose of God was to make His nation a pure one.
The Canaanites practiced all kinds of lewd, perverted, wicked, and just basically inhumane deeds that led to their demise. For 700 years, they basically thumbed their noses to God and acted in disobedience. Even after God sent warnings. God simply refused to allow them to rise to power or have any kind of cultural influence on the world. He had them wiped out. The same holds true if we read about any other nations that were destroyed.
And it's interesting to note, the Canaanites weren't weak little helpless people that the Israelites could just walk over! This isn't comparable to the Holocaust, where the Jewish people were basically defenseless against the Germans. The only way the Israelites were able to defeat the Canaanites was through God's power. Canaan chose to fight God - and Canaan lost.
Is this unloving? I don't know. I don't necessarily think it would have been loving of God NOT to deal with these nations, considering the kind of activities they were involved with. I suppose it would have been unloving if God didn't give them a chance to surrender. But if you read through the Torah, you'll find that everywhere the Hebrews went, they stopped and asked the king of that land if they could pass through peacefully. Some of the kings said yes...some said no, and preferred to fight Israel for the land. In such cases, they were defeated.
The story of Rahab is an interesting one, because it paints a picture of God's love for (and redemption of) the Gentiles.
Throughout these books, God is described as a consuming fire. We have to realize that God is both loving and just. He loves sinners, but doesn't tolerate sin...and tolerating sin wouldn't be an act of love, anyway.
Allowing the Canaanites to continue their lifestyle while being rewarded with riches, glory, and land are not the actions of a loving God. Nor is it God's pattern of behavior to force people into repentance. He gave the Canaanites 40 years...40 years in which they heard about the glory of the Hebrews and their God. Some of the Canaanites believed and feared the God of Abraham after hearing the reports (case in point, Rahab), and some did not. The kings who DID allow the Hebrews to pass through remained in tact, and their cities weren't destroyed.
Why do we question the justice of God in this situation? Why are we angry with Him, and not with the Canaanites who were sacrificing their children and mating with animals and such?
I think it's because God is described to us as love...and we expect God to be merciful beyond what we deserve, to shower grace and love beyond what we could ever comprehend.
Which leads us to the cross...far from being a picture of God "tolerating" sin, the cross is a picture of God dealing with it in justice, mercy, and love. The Canaanites lived before the cross, of course...but Jesus died for everyone like them, everyone who deserves death and worse but instead receives life and more.
Still, even the cross requires an action our part – an act of surrender. God doesn't force Himself upon us. That would not be true love. Ultimately, the decision is left up to us...just as it was left up to the Canaanites.
Jay
Posted by: Redshift Feb 3 2004, 01:35 PM
QUOTE
22You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination
Okay, so this is one of the reasons why "it would not have been very loving of God not to deal with these people"?
Posted by: Starflier Feb 3 2004, 01:41 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 3 2004, 09:32 AM)
QUOTE
The subject matter is "God" (male deity) you stated. For whom you said the Bible writers are your authority on "his" (male deity) existence. So you're a Bible worshipper eh? You worship the words written a book? So you worship the ideas in a book? So you worship the images in your imagination, your mind's eye that form inside you conjured up from the words you read in the Bible?
No. Not a Bible worshipper. I don't worship the words. I don't worship the ideas. I don't worship my imagination.
I worship God, as He has defined Himself to us by way of His word. The subject of the words - not the words themself.
So then elimating the Bible's word, Preachers' thoughts/speech, others' thoughts/speech/writings, the image in your mind's, eye, imagination conjured up by all these, where elso does your god exist then as real male personage described in the Bible & elsewhere & in pictures?
I've also read/heard, seen pictures of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy & the easter bunny. But sooner or later we all grown up to understand it was only our parents who fed us those myths which existed only in books, spoken words or pictures & no where else in reality.
So if your male deity indeed does exist, then where else is he exactly?
Another thing, you're saying "God defined Himself" in the Bible. No such thing. Men wrote the Bible, not any deity. That was their idea of god in only their mind's eye, imagnination, words, human created pictures & speech. So we're back at square one again. Where else exactly is your male deity located in reality?
Posted by: Redshift Feb 3 2004, 01:41 PM
QUOTE
17You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness. They are near of kin to her. It is wickedness.
This one really does confuse me. My wife happens to be woman's daughter! Or this this apply to a manage a trois situation?
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 01:45 PM
I thought there might be some that would twist the direction, the topic, the intention, the focus, to something else.
Red, homosexuality is a complete other topic. Agree?
If you want to discuss that, let's start another thread.
Short answer to your question: God loves homosexuals, but cannot tolerate the act therein. Just like any other sin. I think I've been through this one before...
Respectfully,
Jay
Posted by: Redshift Feb 3 2004, 01:58 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 3 2004, 11:45 PM)
I thought there might be some that would twist the direction, the topic, the intention, the focus, to something else.
Red, homosexuality is a complete other topic. Agree?
If you want to discuss that, let's start another thread.
Short answer to your question: God loves homosexuals, but cannot tolerate the act therein. Just like any other sin. I think I've been through this one before...
Respectfully,
Jay
Well, Jay, the bit I quoted falls under your heading: "Here are some insights as to WHY God commanded Israel to destroy certain inhabitants of other nations – We’ll look at the story of Canaan in particular here."
Which part am I distorting? Am I supposed to ignore the part about the gay men?
Your intent - correct me if I'm wrong - is to help us understand why God would be so merciless towards these Canaanites.
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 01:59 PM
Hi Star,
QUOTE
So then elimating the Bible's word, Preachers' thoughts/speech, others' thoughts/speech/writings, the image in your mind's, eye, imagination conjured up by all these, where elso does your god exist then as real male personage described in the Bible & elsewhere & in pictures?
I never said I'm "eliminating" the Bible, or contents therein. My God exists as a real male personage in Jesus Christ.
QUOTE
I've also read/heard, seen pictures of Santa Claus, the tooth fairy & the easter bunny. But sooner or later we all grown up to understand it was only our parents who fed us those myths which existed only in books, spoken words or pictures & no where else in reality.
That's right - all those characters have one thing in common, they always have and always will be, a myth. It is (and has always been) universally accepted and proven as a true definition of these characters.
God only becomes a member of that list in the individual lives of those that choose to catagorize Him as such. It doesn't change the truth, it only makes your list longer.
QUOTE
So if your male deity indeed does exist, then where else is he exactly?
There are many references, historical and modern, secular and Christian, that attest to His existence.
QUOTE
Another thing, you're saying "God defined Himself" in the Bible. No such thing. Men wrote the Bible, not any deity. That was their idea of god in only their mind's eye, imagnination, words, human created pictures & speech. So we're back at square one again.
We're only there because it's where you want me to be. Not going to happen that way unfortunately. God revealed Himself to us in His word, and through the life of Jesus. Men wrote the Bible - you are correct. However, the Bible teaches that God spoke through these men, that it was written with Divine intervention. And it has been proven as such so far.
Jay
Posted by: moorezw Feb 3 2004, 02:02 PM
JayS8NT-
QUOTE
The Canaanites practiced all kinds of lewd, perverted, wicked, and just basically inhumane deeds that led to their demise. For 700 years, they basically thumbed their noses to God and acted in disobedience. Even after God sent warnings.
Where is this recorded in the Bible, or anywhere else for that matter?
And even if it were true, it seems really unfair of Yahweh to give his commandments to only one group of people, then hold others accountable for them.
Here's a more likely reason for the genocide of Canaan:
QUOTE
Genesis 9:22-26 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it upon both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers." He also said, "Blessed by Yahweh my god be Shem; and let Canaan be his slave." God enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem; and let Canaan be his slave."
Posted by: Reality Amplifier Feb 3 2004, 02:05 PM
As suspected, nothing new to us ex-Christians in your explanation for our understanding Jay.
So back to the more salient point underlying your suppositions...how do you KNOW your explanations for our understanding are explaining the actual words of God?
BTW - If God wanted to provide a land to the Israelites, why not North America, Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Cuba, Hawaii? He could rain fire and brimstone, part the Red Sea, create everything, but not transport them to a land of their own? Lot's of real estate was available.
If God wanted to wield the Israelites as his weapon to "purify them" (by having them murder babies), why just the poor old Canaanites? What about everybody else on the planet? They didn't require holy smiting too?
Posted by: Redshift Feb 3 2004, 02:06 PM
QUOTE
That's right - all those characters have one thing in common, they always have and always will be, a myth. It is (and has always been) universally accepted and proven as a true definition of these characters.
Universally accepted? I know a 5 year old who would beg to differ.
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 02:07 PM
Hi Red,
QUOTE
Well, Jay, the bit I quoted falls under your heading: "Here are some insights as to WHY God commanded Israel to destroy certain inhabitants of other nations – We’ll look at the story of Canaan in particular here."
I understand.
QUOTE
Which part am I distorting? Am I supposed to go ignore the part about the gay men?
I'm not asking you to "ignore" anything. I'm just trying to stay on the subject at hand. I never said you were "distorting" either - I said you were changing direction (I used the word "twist") of the subject.
QUOTE
Your intent - correct me if I'm wrong - is to help us understand why God would be so merciless towards these Canaanites.
Correct. What do you need to understand and I'll see if I can help. Please note the difference in intention - If you really do intend to gain understanding, or if you simply intend to ask without reason. My answers to everyone will be based accordingly.
Respectfully,
Jay
Posted by: =Veritas= Feb 3 2004, 02:17 PM
Hi Moorezw,
QUOTE
Where is this recorded in the Bible, or anywhere else for that matter?
It requires some math. It's figured out through Biblical timeline of when events happened, to certain birth's, etc. A compilation.
QUOTE
And even if it were true, it seems really unfair of Yahweh to give his commandments to only one group of people, then hold others accountable for them.
God's law is universal to all people. He commanded the Israelites directly because it is through His people that he has always revealed Himself, His ways, His law, etc. God used them as an example in different ways. There's other reasons, just not worth elaboration right now.
As for your reasoning behind the destruction of Canaan, ummm...the reference you included is talking about a person named Canaan during the time of Noah - not the land/nation of Canaan.
Nice try though.
Jay
Posted by: Lokmer Feb 3 2004, 02:30 PM
QUOTE
It seems to me that NO ONE – not even Israel – was exempt from God's execution of justice in the days preceding the cross. In fact, no other nation underwent more trials, more death, and more destruction than that of God's own nation of Israel! When Israel would disobey, God would have other nations attack them. The purpose of God was to make His nation a pure one.
Interesting, don't you think, that being God's favorite meant that he fucked with you more than with the surrounding pagan nations, in't it? All thoughout this time we have the Egyptians with their diefication of death, the Hindus with their diefication of just about everything, the Chinese/Mongolians with their atheistic/pantheistic religions, and all of the ancient near-east with their tribal gods. Yahweh was a tribal god, too. And if YHWH's purpose was to make Israel "pure" he sure did not do a good job of it, did he, if they killed him as soon as he showed up among them and then rejected him forever after? I think what you're doing here, Jay (and I don't think you know you're doing it), is a post-hoc ergo propter-hoc rationalization. i.e. Babylon fell after they opressed Israel, therefore YHWH did it for revenge. This also fails to take into account that 1) YHWH couldn't defeat the Canaanites when they fought in chariots, and 2) Babylon was MONOTHEISTIC worshiping the creator God most high of the universe at the time of the captivity (Zoroastrianism was the state religion).
QUOTE
The Canaanites practiced all kinds of lewd, perverted, wicked, and just basically inhumane deeds that led to their demise. For 700 years, they basically thumbed their noses to God and acted in disobedience. Even after God sent warnings. God simply refused to allow them to rise to power or have any kind of cultural influence on the world. He had them wiped out. The same holds true if we read about any other nations that were destroyed.
This is simply not true. They worshiped many gods, to be sure, and practiced sympathetic magic, but so did the Hebrews. Ashoreth, Baal, El, El Shaddi, Yahweh, and the Serpent God were all honored and sacrificed to until the reign of King Josiah when all other cults were supressed. Do you not find it odd that God would command "Make no graven image" and then have Moses make a brass snake idol (which from the description - and 2 Kings where it is destroyed - is an image of the Canaanite serpent god)? Or have him make an Ark of the Covenant with IDOLS of seraphim (sphinx - the cat god of Egypt) on it? Israel was clearly not monotheistic until very late in its life. What hints there are in the Masoretic text of the Tanakh (the sources that most trasnlations use) are sparse, but in the Septuigent (the translation that Jesus read) and the Dead Sea Scrolls it's much more pronounced.
QUOTE
And it's interesting to note, the Canaanites weren't weak little helpless people that the Israelites could just walk over! This isn't comparable to the Holocaust, where the Jewish people were basically defenseless against the Germans. The only way the Israelites were able to defeat the Canaanites was through God's power. Canaan chose to fight God - and Canaan lost.
Actually, not even the Bible claims that Canaan lost. It claims that Joshua took a handful of cities, and then stopped. Canaan and Israel became one nation, their gods and cultures melting into each other. Yahweh, you see, was also the storm god of the canaanites, Ashoreth their fertility goddess, El their most high, El Shaddai the god of the mountain, and so on. The very language used by the Hebrews is Canaanite in origin, as can be seen in the names of all the prophets: EL-isha, El-ijah, Dani-el, etc. and in the VERY NAME OF THE NATION: Isra-EL.
The biblical justification of their "wickedness" was twofold:
1) Some seen them as decendents of Ham, and therefore deserving of the curse Noah laid on him for laughing at his dick.
2) The only other crime they are accused of in the Bible (aside from not being Hebrew) is owning the land that the Heberws were promised. YHWH did not give the law to the Gentiles. The only law he supposedly gave to everyone was "Do Not Murder." (Genesis 6 or 7)
QUOTE
Is this unloving? I don't know. I don't necessarily think it would have been loving of God NOT to deal with these nations, considering the kind of activities they were involved with.
What sort of activities do you have in mind? Have you forgotten that it was the Hebrews in Judges that sacrificed children to God, committed mass murder, supported a thriving prostitution trade and fertility cult, slaughtered thousands of their own people after a gang rape, and generally behaved worse than anything the mind of man has dreamt up in any other culture in the world? Have you forgotten that it is the HEROS of Israel that did most of these things in God's name? Have you forgotten that God's favorite, David, who "did not sin except in the matter of the wife of Uriah the Hittite" condoned incestuous rape under his own roof, seized territory, was a thief (stealing from YHWH's own priests!), and cut the dicks off of 200 Philistines in order to buy the girl he was bedding from his boss?
QUOTE
I suppose it would have been unloving if God didn't give them a chance to surrender. But if you read through the Torah, you'll find that everywhere the Hebrews went, they stopped and asked the king of that land if they could pass through peacefully. Some of the kings said yes...some said no, and preferred to fight Israel for the land. In such cases, they were defeated.
Sounds remarkably like the crusades. >>knock knock<< Hello, we're the Israelites. We're looking for a new place and yours looks pretty good. Would you mind letting us take over your country and property and - yeah - we'd like some of your women while we're at it. What? No? You've just pissed off our God. Now we're gonna take it all from you anyway and kill you for being such a butt-munch.
QUOTE
The story of Rahab is an interesting one, because it paints a picture of God's love for (and redemption of) the Gentiles.
Hey, a good hooker who can keep secrets is an asset to any army.
QUOTE
Throughout these books, God is described as a consuming fire. We have to realize that God is both loving and just. He loves sinners, but doesn't tolerate sin...and tolerating sin wouldn't be an act of love, anyway.
I agree - the God I worshiped looked a lot like the one you do. But that God is not to be found in the Bible, except in fleeting glimpses. The God of the Bible is capricious, dishonest, cruel, stupid, short-sighted, sadistic, does not keep his promises, impotent, and in general no better than any other pagan god in the history of the world (and worse than some of them).
QUOTE
Allowing the Canaanites to continue their lifestyle while being rewarded with riches, glory, and land are not the actions of a loving God. Nor is it God's pattern of behavior to force people into repentance. He gave the Canaanites 40 years...40 years in which they heard about the glory of the Hebrews and their God.
No he didn't. He didn't like the Israelites bitching about "but they're bigger than we are" so he made them march around the desert until they all died. He wasn't "Giving the Canaanites a chance." That was never in the game plan. From the very beginning he told the Hebrews that they were going to take the land by force.
QUOTE
Why do we question the justice of God in this situation? Why are we angry with Him, and not with the Canaanites who were sacrificing their children and mating with animals and such?
If God is truly God and truly just, then our own sense of justice must come from him. The events in the OT (not just in the conquest of Canaan) that were said to be commanded by God do not bear the marks of a just God, or a righteous God, or a loving God who was capable of weaving together the beauty of this universe, nor to they bespeak a wise God. God obviously does not know how people will react to his cohersion and vengence, he didn't realize that sending the flood wouldn't abolish sin and evil (he hadn't figured out that original sin thing yet), he didn't know that the Hebrews would turn their back on him at every whim, and he didn't know how to make them like him.
This is not the picture of an omnipotent God. This is the picture of a 4 year old with a new toy that breaks it when it won't do something it wasn't designed to.
QUOTE
I think it's because God is described to us as love...and we expect God to be merciful beyond what we deserve, to shower grace and love beyond what we could ever comprehend.
That would be nice, of course, but I'd honestly settle for an explaination and some instructions. The Bible is useless as a source of both.
QUOTE
Which leads us to the cross...far from being a picture of God "tolerating" sin, the cross is a picture of God dealing with it in justice, mercy, and love. The Canaanites lived before the cross, of course...but Jesus died for everyone like them, everyone who deserves death and worse but instead receives life and more.
That's the Nicean theolgy in a nutshell, but it's probably the least compelling version of the atonement that was formulated. Peter Abelard and Jack Miles both came up with one that makes a hell of a lot more sense than did the councils - one that does not require pagan doctrines of hell or demons or whatnot. They posited that God in the form of Jesus was atoning for his own sins - specifically the failed promise of the throne of David and of the everlasting land grant - in order to demonstrate his passion for the Jews and bring all the world back to himself.
The classical orthodox theology A) Can't be easily justified from scripture,
depends on the ancient 3-tiered univers cosmology, and C) makes no sense at all (didn't even when it was formulated - read the Ante-Nicene library to find out why).You seem to be a good man Jay, and an honest one. But the God you believe in is not the God of the Bible - at best he is refracted in the Bible in a distorted fashion.
-Lokmer
Posted by: moorezw Feb 3 2004, 02:36 PM
JayS8NT-
QUOTE
It requires some math.
I'll tell you, I've been playing with my calculator for some time now, and it still hasn't told me that the Canaanites were perverted. Maybe you can help.
QUOTE
God's law is universal to all people.
OK, and how exactly would the Canaanites have known something that was revealed to a completely different nation out in the desert?
QUOTE
As for your reasoning behind the destruction of Canaan, ummm...the reference you included is talking about a person named Canaan during the time of Noah - not the land/nation of Canaan.
Oh, you got me. I must have been confused, seeing as how a man named Israel(Jacob) founded a nation of Israelites. Also how his brother named Edom(Esau) founded a nation of Edomites. Also how Lot's son Moab founded a nation of Moabites. Obviously, a man named Canaan couldn't possibly found a nation of Canaanites. My mistake.
Posted by: Starflier Feb 3 2004, 02:36 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Feb 3 2004, 09:32 AM)
QUOTE
Do you always consult the writings of long dead men to make current major life decisions & form your beliefs about everything ongoing in your life?
No. Although I do believe the Bible provides answers to all of lifes major questions. I consult with God.
I believe that God has the ability to communicate to any of us, in any way He wants. Whether it's "more" or less direct isn't really the issue. Either the Spirit of God worked through the writers, or the Spirit didn't.
Based on what the Bible is comprised of, how it was written, and the proof's that confirm its authority, I believe it is as it says: "God-breathed."
QUOTE
How would you or they know of any source without direct contact or personal experience of it? Why take their word about their personal experience or contact with whatever they thought was any sort of source of creation? Do you think they they there "In the beginning" as they stated? Do you think they had any more experience or direct knowledge of a beginning at all? Or if there ever was a beginning? Why would you think they would know there was a beginning anymore than you, I or anyone else would know of a beginning of creation as we know it?
God did have direct interaction with them by way of His Spirit. God also had direct interaction by way of speaking to them. God also had direct interaction by walking among them.
QUOTE
Do you think those long dead men were wiser, smarter or had more brainy intellience than you, I or anyone else has or had?
No. God consistently uses "ordinary" people for His extraordinary purposes. It was no different then, than it is now.
QUOTE
Do you think those long dead men's life experience was any better or more valid, meaningful or purposeful than yours, mine or anyone else's?
Depends. More "better, valid, meaningful, or purposeful" by who's definition? If you're looking for my own opinion on it, I'd have to say no. The same life is available to anyone who wants it. God doesn't give one believer a "bigger/better" purpose than another. The difference is whether or not we know and use our purpose.
QUOTE
Do you ever read the writings of any other global cultural creation myths written by their long dead writers/thinkers or of those of currently living writers/thinkers? What makes you think those long dead men's writing/thinking was any better, wiser, more truthful or more knowledgeable than any currently living person's is?
Yes. I've read and studied many other theories regarding the origin of life. The second part of your questions can be answered the same as many of your others: Divine intervention.
QUOTE
What's