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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Fear And Religion Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 22 2004, 11:28 PM Definition - Fear 1. archaic : FRIGHTEN 2. archaic : to feel fear in (oneself) 3. to have a reverential awe of <fear God> 4. to be afraid of : expect with alarm intransitive senses : to be afraid or apprehensive "My young son asked me what happens after we die. I told him we get buried under a bunch of dirt and worms eat our bodies. I guess I should have told him the truth--that most of us go to Hell and burn eternally--but I didn't want to upset him." – Jack Handy As Thomas Paine, said, "Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system." Fear has been, and continues to be a strong motivator and sustainer of the world’s religions, including Christianity. Even today, the purported existence of the Devil and Hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all Christian creeds. Go to a Christian church, and you will hear preachers giving sermons on salvation one Sunday, then a sermon laced with gospel-laced fear tactics on damnation the next. They’ll preach about fear of death, fear of the Devil, fear of Hell, and of course, fear of God. They will openly employ fear to expertly terrorize their followers and potential initiates with stories of the sadistic, painful and cruel suffering of nonbelievers after death. A subtle form of conditioning. We sometimes even see Christians that venture into Ex-Christian.com who will occasionally try to wield unreasoned fear against us. Fear does not attempt to convince through logic or reason. Fear fails against skepticism, logic and reason. Fear does not attempt to appeal to the better nature of individuals. Religions often attempt to whip the flock into line through threats, through appeals to some of the basest parts of human nature—fear and cowardice. What an individual believes has no effect on truth in reality. However, our beliefs do affect us, and those around us. That’s why it's important that we use logic, skepticism and reason as a compass to help us determine what to have faith in. There are many Christian’s out there who claim to know for certain what the truth is, and who tell us there are dire consequences if we don’t believe them. Only the dogmatist claims absolute certitude. It is prudent that one should be skeptical of doctrines that hold an open hand of professed love in one hand, and an angry fist of hellfire (and fear) in the other. -Reality Amplifier ===================================== Some thought-provoking quotes on fear and religion: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil. Pr 16:6 “A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." - Albert Einstein Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God. - Dt.6:13, 10:20 Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson "For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods. Ps.96:4 Fear is the basis of the whole thing [Religion] -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. – Bertrand Russell The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him -. Ps.147:11 Worshipping a god out of fear is the same as a slave placating his master by being submissive. - Aaron Spielman Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.- Ec.12:13 If we go back to the beginning, we shall always find that ignorance and fear have created gods. –Baron d’ Holbach Fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. - Mt.10:28, Lk.12:5 My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race. -Bertrand Russell Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come:- Rev.14:7 “There can be no doubt...of our dependence upon forces beyond our control. Primitive man was so impotent in the face of these forces that... fear became a dominant attitude, and, as the old saying goes, fear created gods.” - John Dewey You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to frighten you.- Eric Hoffer I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.Ex.23:27 "The conquering of fear is the beginning of wisdom"--Bertrand Russell THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE: BUT FOOLS DESPISE WISDOM AND INSTRUCTION-Pv 1:7 All religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few -Stendhal Thou shalt fear thy God:for I am the LORD your God. - Lev.25:17 Fear of things invisible is the natural seed of that which everyone in himself calleth religion. – Thomas Hobbes Teach me thy way, O Lord; I will walk in they truth: unite my heart to fear thy name-Ps 86:11. No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear. –- Edmund Burke And so it was at the beginning of their dwelling there, that they feared not the lord; therefore the Lord sent lions among them, which slew some of them --2 Ki 17:25. Our repentance is not so much regret for the ill we have done as fear of the ill that may happen to us in consequence.- François Duc de La Rochefoucauld It is and evil thing… that my fearis not in thee -Jere 2:19. And fearnot them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. – Mt. 10:28 "Religion is the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable."--Ambrose Bierce "Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science."--Robert Ingersoll Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 May 23 2004, 12:15 AM There is fear from being scared, and there is fear of respect. Christianity enjoys spawning the former, i.e. hell. Posted by: Java May 23 2004, 04:32 AM "Fear of Respect?" I find that a bit contradictory. When I respect someone, I want to earn their respect. If I fear doing something that would hurt their opinion of me, that might be a factor in my choice but not at all the deciding factor. I don't really think fear and respect can coexist in any way that is healthy. Posted by: chefranden May 23 2004, 07:17 AM QUOTE (Reality Amplifier @ May 23 2004, 01:28 AM) Even today, the purported existence of the Devil and Hell are cardinal doctrinal tenets of almost all Christian creeds. Go to a Christian church, and you will hear preachers giving sermons on salvation one Sunday, then a sermon laced with gospel-laced fear tactics on damnation the next. They’ll preach about fear of death, fear of the Devil, fear of Hell, and of course, fear of God. They will openly employ fear to expertly terrorize their followers and potential initiates with stories of the sadistic, painful and cruel suffering of nonbelievers after death. A subtle form of conditioning. We sometimes even see Christians that venture into Ex-Christian.com who will occasionally try to wield unreasoned fear against us. ] When I was preaching I never preached about damnation, though I may have alluded to it here and there. I stuck to the message of love of the Johnin letters. So, much to my surprize years later when discussing religion and the old days with my oldest boy, he told me that he was frightened nearly out of his mind that he was going to hell, from age 8 to about 20 when he finally figured out it was bullshit. Even the "good" side of the gospel carries the fear of hell. Posted by: R.C. May 23 2004, 08:30 AM Thanks RA! That was the best sunday morning sermon I have ever heard! RC Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 09:42 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 23 2004, 07:17 AM) When I was preaching I never preached about damnation, though I may have alluded to it here and there. I stuck to the message of love of the Johnin letters. So, much to my surprize years later when discussing religion and the old days with my oldest boy, he told me that he was frightened nearly out of his mind that he was going to hell, from age 8 to about 20 when he finally figured out it was bullshit. Even the "good" side of the gospel carries the fear of hell. I’ll echo your son’s sentiments. The majority of the sermons I remember did not focus on damnation. But when you’re taught the religion from a young age, over time the concept is implied and begins to take root. Fear begins lurking in the back of your mind. Once the concept is implanted, I think it must have some kind of psychological impact on the very thoughts of those who believe in it. It is a subtle form of behavioral conditioning. I wonder how many Ex-Christians struggled not to sin based on the doctrine of fear, as opposed to the doctrine of love? Christians believe God is ALWAYS watching and judging them, recording their every deed and judging for it. All the time. God hates sin, and will punish sin. and then when you perceive sin in your life... I think the concept can begin to breed fear of living up to Bible-God's standards. I recall living under the sense of being under constant scrutiny by an omnipresent God. That sense of scrutiny fosters a sense of guilt in that Bible-God is watching your every move. I’ll even venture that if one constantly dwells on the concept, it can even become an invasive source of neurosis. Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 09:45 AM QUOTE (R.C. @ May 23 2004, 08:30 AM) Thanks RA! That was the best sunday morning sermon I have ever heard! RC Thanks RC. Posted by: Judyism May 23 2004, 09:56 AM I bet all those morons with the xtian "Ain't Skeered" bumper stickers would feel silly after reading that post. Good reading, RA Posted by: Madame M May 23 2004, 01:40 PM Very good post, RC!! (RA) QUOTE The majority of the sermons I remember did not focus on damnation. But when you’re taught the religion from a young age, over time the concept is implied and begins to take root. Fear begins lurking in the back of your mind. Once the concept is implanted, I think it must have some kind of psychological impact on the very thoughts of those who believe in it. It is a subtle form of behavioral conditioning. Spot on! Once one is indoctrinated with the fear of hell, the fear of losing salvation (which leads back to hell) and the fear of blaspheming (which leads back to hell)- notice all roads lead back to hell- it is easy from then on for the Christian to hear a sermon in which hell is not mentioned and still be in fear. I remember the pastor would preach and I would note that I was not living up to whatever the standard of the week was, and fear that it proved that I was not really saved and thus- going to hell. Posted by: Reach May 23 2004, 01:59 PM Reality Amplifier, I must compliment you on a really good piece of writing. Tight and concise. You might be interested in taking a look at this topic that Lokmer and I have worked on together and several members have contributed to. http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3262 Thanks for an excellent read. -Reach Posted by: phoenix May 23 2004, 02:32 PM i think fear is the main reason so many people stay with xtianity. i know that's why i did - and why i sometimes lie awake hoping that i made the right choice... Posted by: JimmyDtD May 23 2004, 03:52 PM Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. Posted by: R.C. May 23 2004, 04:08 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ May 23 2004, 03:52 PM) Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. Like running out in front of fast moving cars or playing with live gorillas! Good point Jimmy! Can anyone else think of ways that fear helps us keep from killing ourselves? RC Posted by: extremeone May 23 2004, 05:53 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ May 23 2004, 03:52 PM) Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. why would you think of it in that sense?... Posted by: MrSpooky May 23 2004, 05:56 PM EDIT: NM Posted by: nightbreeze May 23 2004, 06:00 PM QUOTE Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. And fear can be bad, like a horrifying belief choking the life out of you. Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 06:04 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 23 2004, 01:59 PM) Reality Amplifier, I must compliment you on a really good piece of writing. Tight and concise. You might be interested in taking a look at this topic that Lokmer and I have worked on together and several members have contributed to. http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3262 Thanks for an excellent read. -Reach Wow. Thank you Reach. That is a great thread you Lokmer have going on over there. I hadn't seen it before, and have to admit I'd never really perused that part of the forum before. Thanks for the interesting read I see a parallel with this topic... RA Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 06:15 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ May 23 2004, 03:52 PM) Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. As an evolutionary survival mechanism, yes, fear can certainly be useful. The impact of fear in the context of religion was the point though... Posted by: JimmyDtD May 23 2004, 06:22 PM Not only killing yourself, fear can keep you from injuring yourself. You don't touch the hot stove. You're careful with a sharp knife when you're cutting up your food. Etc. Posted by: Bill Johnson May 23 2004, 06:28 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ May 23 2004, 09:22 PM) Not only killing yourself, fear can keep you from injuring yourself. You don't touch the hot stove. You're careful with a sharp knife when you're cutting up your food. Etc. QUOTE The impact of fear in the context of religion was the point though... Jimmy, we understand the point you are trying to make, but the topic is relating to "fear in the context of religion," as Reality Amplifier already explained. By the way Jimmy, I notice that you still quote the horrible translation know as the KJV Bible. Would you like a link to an honestly translated .pdf format Bible? Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 06:46 PM QUOTE Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. QUOTE Not only killing yourself, fear can keep you from injuring yourself. You don't touch the hot stove. You're careful with a sharp knife when you're cutting up your food. Etc. I've never met anyone who could blend the terms fear and common sense that well. Jimmy, I really think you're on to something here! Excellent post RA! Thanks for the contribution. Posted by: formerfundie May 23 2004, 06:51 PM Wow, R.A., this was, as Reach said, an EXCELLENT read! I wished I'd gotten here earlier, but trying to stay balanced between this and other stuff. Fear - I was, and in some degree, just like Phoenix (I still wonder if I made the right choice, but in being honest with who I am and how I think, I think I did) still am, inundated with fear, even as a christian I was- there was just too much I couldn't seem to overcome or live up to in order to avoid going to hell. Everything's a sin. I always "sinned." It still haunts, even though the thread Lokmer and Reach started and all the links and info were VERY helpful - it's a deep psychological thing I guess. It will just take time, lots of time. Thanks for posting this. FF Posted by: Reach May 23 2004, 06:53 PM QUOTE (nightbreeze @ May 23 2004, 09:00 PM) QUOTE Fear can be good. Think about it. Fear can keep you from killing yourself in a hundred different ways. And fear can be bad, like a horrifying belief choking the life out of you. I agree. I'm reminded of what Loren said regarding teaching imprintable children (and for that matter, anyone else, all of us being somewhat imprintable) about hell in the topic http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3262: QUOTE (Loren) Neurological sabotage. This is what has been done to you. Neurological sabotage. This is the primary reason these doctrines make me want to beat the shit out of whoever's responsible. Neurological sabotage. Almost makes you want to go and get a baseball bat and start hitting something with it. Thanks again, RA. Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 06:58 PM QUOTE (JimmyDtD @ May 23 2004, 06:22 PM) Not only killing yourself, fear can keep you from injuring yourself. You don't touch the hot stove. You're careful with a sharp knife when you're cutting up your food. Etc. Hmm. I don’t know where you’re going with your random points Jimmy, but I suspect you’ve got a point you're trying to get to somewhere. Does your train of thought have a caboose, or are you just making disconnected observations? Posted by: Reality Amplifier May 23 2004, 07:03 PM Thanks again for all the thumbs up from everybody. I really appreciate it, and I'm gratified to hear that most of you can relate to this topic. Posted by: Shadfox May 23 2004, 07:09 PM QUOTE Not only killing yourself, fear can keep you from injuring yourself. You don't touch the hot stove. You're careful with a sharp knife when you're cutting up your food. Etc. I know where you're going with this, Jimmy. If you're going to set us up with examples alluding to how fearing god protects us from the eternal stove, I suggest a more direct approach: Fear can keep you alive by making you submit to the dictator's demands by giving him endless praise and ego strokes! Fear protects you from rebelliousness so you don't upset your violently abusive father! Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 07:19 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 23 2004, 10:53 PM) Almost makes you want to go and get a baseball bat and start hitting something with it. Baseball bat, http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4272&view=findpost&p=73594, who cares! The source would be an excellent start, no? Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 07:30 PM QUOTE (Shadfox @ May 23 2004, 11:09 PM) I know where you're going with this, Jimmy. If you're going to set us up with examples alluding to how fearing god protects us from the eternal stove, I suggest a more direct approach: Fear can keep you alive by making you submit to the dictator's demands by giving him endless praise and ego strokes! Fear protects you from rebelliousness so you don't upset your violently abusive father! He knows where he's going with it, Shad. The poor dude just can't seem to get any converts though. I had an abusive father who liked to use fear to keep the home in line. The fear stopped for me when I was either 12 or 13 years old. He showed some really puzzling expressions while I blankly stared at him during his last facial back-handing session. Maybe that's the purpose of abusive fathers, huh? They are here to teach us fear, and beat all other emotions out of us. Dang Jimmy, your right again! Fear is a good thing! You bring more truth to this forum than you can possibly imagine. Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 08:12 PM I almost forgot to mention that I didn't even spill my cup of Kool-Aid either. So now. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 May 23 2004, 09:26 PM QUOTE (Java @ May 23 2004, 08:32 AM) "Fear of Respect?" I find that a bit contradictory. When I respect someone, I want to earn their respect. If I fear doing something that would hurt their opinion of me, that might be a factor in my choice but not at all the deciding factor. I don't really think fear and respect can coexist in any way that is healthy. That's exactly my point Java. Fear of respect is not fear at all. It is an expression of extreme respect. Such respect that you do not wish to do something that the respected one would be against. Such as the steryotypical person who meets a celebrity and is awe-struck. That is a fearful respect. Posted by: Reach May 23 2004, 09:30 PM QUOTE (Shadfox @ May 23 2004, 10:09 PM) I know where you're going with this, Jimmy. If you're going to set us up with examples alluding to how fearing god protects us from the eternal stove, I suggest a more direct approach: Fear can keep you alive by making you submit to the dictator's demands by giving him endless praise and ego strokes! Fear protects you from rebelliousness so you don't upset your violently abusive father! Shadfox, I had a mother who became abusive for about 15 years when she went from mothering three children to nine children in about 30 days. Fear kept me quiet and when I opened up my mouth not a hint of sarcasm or rudeness could ever be expressed in the slightest tone of voice. Her choice of punishment for me and my eight siblings was a "spanking" with an extension cord folded over a few times. I generally received about twenty or thirty lashes but since the cord was folded that meant a minimum of 40 or 60 cuts and/or welts. Because I wanted justice served, I used to enjoy wearing a sleeveless shirt to school the next few days and making it a point to raise my hand in a few classes, so my arms could be seen. Of course, anyone who asked what happened to my arms (and legs) got the truthful answer. I did such and such and my mother gave me a "spanking." This did make high school pretty interesting for me, to be sure. I've forgiven my mother for all of this and we have a wonderful relationship BUT... I never could quite understand that this punishment was laid on us by a Christian™ woman in the first place and I was very saddened by the fact that God never showed up to punish her, nor protect any of us. Strange that. More neurological sabotage, like Loren said. Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 09:41 PM Dang Reach. ....... Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 10:01 PM You know what Reach? Your post got me to think a little bit. I just now realized that my parents had somewhat of a systematic approach when it came down to physical abuse. Yeah. Now that I think about it, they never did hit us in a way that would mark our bodies during school times. OY! When summer rolled around, look out! We got hit with everything from closed hands, to garden tools! My mother's favorite was the metal french-fry spoon! Sure, it left quite a unique pattern on our tushies, but it hurt like crazy! I don't recall any blood being drawn though. Posted by: Reach May 23 2004, 10:17 PM My arms and the backside of me were generally a bit of a bloody mess when she got done. So unnecessary. And no help from God in sight... Chef says there is no God. Posted by: Fweethawt May 23 2004, 10:23 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 24 2004, 02:17 AM) My arms and the backside of me were generally a bit of a bloody mess when she got done. So unnecessary. And no help from God in sight... Chef says there is no God. I do recall seeing the effects of an extension cord lashing on a friend of mine when I was in grade school. I know what it looks like. No child deserves that. Chef says that there ain't no strawberries to be found in the middle of an onion either. Posted by: Casey May 23 2004, 11:52 PM QUOTE QUOTE (reach @ May 24 2004, 02:17 AM) My arms and the backside of me were generally a bit of a bloody mess when she got done. So unnecessary. And no help from God in sight... Chef says there is no God. I do recall seeing the effects of an extension cord lashing on a friend of mine when I was in grade school. I know what it looks like. No child deserves that. (Fweethawt) Three times that I can recall, I watched children being used as punching bags in front of a whole class. Twice in Primary School, once in Senior School. It happened to me twice. Each time, it was done by one of the Catholic God's representatives. And this was nothing as to what happened in certain other schools they ran. We all learned a bit from this kind of thing. How to keep a poker face was one. How to put the same expression on one's face as everyone else had was another. Yet another was how to stand there and look as if one had nothing but solid concrete between one's ears. Y'know, soldiers are taught these techniques in case of capture. Funny that we should have learned them at school. Amazing what fear can do, isn't it? Casey Posted by: formerfundie May 24 2004, 04:53 AM Dang - I wonder if any of them ever felt guilty about all that. Fwee, Reach, Casey When I read your post last night Fweetie - I cried. I just will never understand how people can be so cruel, so needlessly, to each other like that. FF Posted by: biggles7268 May 24 2004, 05:04 AM Reach and Fwee I'm so sorry to hear that this was done to you, that goes beyond just being wrong. Fear is one of the greatest behavioral motivators there is, that is how we are trained in boot camp. 3 months of solid fear. The worst I ever got from my dad was switch across the knuckles one time when I was being a total bastard . I totally deserved that one lol. When i got to big for spankings (which were never all that bad, no belt or paddle) he would do things like take the door off my room or chain my bike up or some other loss of priviledge until my behavior improved. I think it worked fairly well. Posted by: chefranden May 24 2004, 07:09 AM QUOTE (Bill Johnson @ May 23 2004, 08:28 PM) By the way Jimmy, I notice that you still quote the horrible translation know as the KJV Bible. Would you like a link to an honestly translated .pdf format Bible? Don't you know that if king James english was good enough for god it is good enough for us? Posted by: chefranden May 24 2004, 07:24 AM Now I think I understand the conditional of the commandment: Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long upon the earth. That is, they won't beat you do death. My dad used a cuff on the back of the head. Sometimes it would knock you half way accross the room, sometimes not. Ma used a wooden mixing spoon, or the broom, and the worst of all -------- "WAIT 'TIL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME!!" Oh boy, then you had to sweet it out all day. Better to get wacked and get it over with. Posted by: Bill Johnson May 24 2004, 08:48 AM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 24 2004, 10:09 AM) QUOTE (Bill Johnson @ May 23 2004, 08:28 PM) By the way Jimmy, I notice that you still quote the horrible translation know as the KJV Bible. Would you like a link to an honestly translated .pdf format Bible? Don't you know that if king James english was good enough for god it is good enough for us? No, because I am superior to the Christian God due to his non-existence. My superiority comes with high expectations. If the Christian God existed so could square-circles, but I would still be superior in my morals and rational thought to that pitiful being. Posted by: Reach May 24 2004, 05:50 PM QUOTE (Casey @ May 24 2004, 02:52 AM) We all learned a bit from this kind of thing. How to keep a poker face was one. How to put the same expression on one's face as everyone else had was another. Yet another was how to stand there and look as if one had nothing but solid concrete between one's ears. Y'know, soldiers are taught these techniques in case of capture. Funny that we should have learned them at school. Amazing what fear can do, isn't it? Casey Casey and Fwee, Yes, it's amazing what horrible things we learn from fear. I learned how to mask my face in cheerfulness that only the most compassionate and discerning would be able to see through. I have a great poker face. Learned from the religious school or learned from the religious home, either way we got the lesson down. It was some years before I realized that it was my tears that helped get me through those rugged and cruel years. Tears have a way of melting the heart that is frozen in grief. It never should have been that way. Many thanks to all our dear friends who have shared here with us! Casey and Fwee, embracing you in great love, Reach Posted by: Reach May 24 2004, 05:57 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 24 2004, 10:24 AM) Now I think I understand the conditional of the commandment: Honor thy father and thy mother that thy days may be long upon the earth. That is, they won't beat you to death. Oh! The humor that can sometimes be found in the most unlikely of places! Thanks Chef. Have you written the whole set of the Ten Comedies? ;-) -Reach Posted by: Cerise May 24 2004, 06:00 PM QUOTE (Fweethawt @ May 23 2004, 10:01 PM) Now that I think about it, they never did hit us in a way that would mark our bodies during school times. Sometimes the most painful marks are where no one can see. Fear taught me how to be invisible, and when I couldn't be invisible I could at least be pleasing. Kids shouldn't have to worry about being pleasing. Posted by: Casey May 24 2004, 08:03 PM QUOTE Fear is one of the greatest behavioral motivators there is, that is how we are trained in boot camp. 3 months of solid fear. (Biggles) My Grade 7 and Grade 8 years were about 18 months worth of total fear. I joined our Army Reserves when I turned 18. Recruit training was a breeze by comparison, because I'd learned most of the survival tricks already. I know that must seem strange to someone who has gone through Marine Boot Camp, but that's honestly how it was. QUOTE The worst I ever got from my dad was switch across the knuckles one time when I was being a total bastard . I totally deserved that one:) lol. (Biggles) I'd like to say this. In my late teens I used go out with my peers occasionally for a bit of a mag. (Shooting the breeze or chewing the fat, whatever). Now because all of us had been children not so long ago, when we were done talking girls/boys, or the state of the nation, we'd turn to home, family or school stuff, especially if we'd all a drink or two taken. That's when I realized there was something different about me. Whereas the others would, as you just did above, mention having done something and thereafter getting "the helicopter treatment" (as in "Hell, he copped 'er, didn't he?") over it, then laugh about it, I COULDN'T DO THAT. A sort of slide show would start up in my head, a jumbled up mixture of ugly voices yelling, pain and gut-twisting fear. The only way to stop it was to change the subject (not easy when the rest had got the bit between their collective teeth) or drink myself paralytic. I'm over that now, but I thought I'd mention this just to show a comparison between a normal and an abusive childhood. QUOTE Casey and Fwee, embracing you in great love, Reach Thank you for that Reach Regards, Casey Posted by: Fweethawt May 24 2004, 08:33 PM FF wrote: QUOTE Dang - I wonder if any of them ever felt guilty about all that. That is a hard one to answer from my little corner of the world. The reason I say this, is because while we were growing up, my father actually boasted to the rest of the family, friends, and neighbors about his disciplinary techniques. The neighbors even threatened their own children by saying, "Do you want me to whip your ass the way (my dad's name) does his kids?" QUOTE When I read your post last night Fweetie - I cried. I just will never understand how people can be so cruel, so needlessly, to each other like that. I think part of it is from the perpetuation of abusiveness from one's parents. My dad never really knew his own father, but his mother, from what I hear, was abusive. My father, who is also a very hard-headed, and stubborn man, also liked to use the requests from other family members, asking him to take it easy on us, as a reason to do it all the more. He's one of those, "You ain't gonna tell me what to do with my own kids." kind of guys. I never really reached a state of forgiveness the way that Reach has. The relationship between my parents and I, is one of what seems to be tolerance and obligation. Thanks for the FF. Back at'cha! Posted by: Fweethawt May 24 2004, 08:50 PM QUOTE (biggles7268 @ May 24 2004, 09:04 AM) Reach and Fwee I'm so sorry to hear that this was done to you, that goes beyond just being wrong. That's OK Biggles. You see, Reach and I are buddies™. So a lot of this stuff really doesn't matter. When she gets around to reading this post, she is going to smile just like I am right now because I know that she is going to. (you probably are too!) It's stuff like that, that keeps our minds off of it. Posted by: Fweethawt May 24 2004, 08:55 PM QUOTE (chefranden @ May 24 2004, 11:24 AM) Ma used a wooden mixing spoon, or the broom, and the worst of all -------- "WAIT 'TIL YOUR FATHER GETS HOME!!" Oh boy, then you had to sweet it out all day. Better to get wacked and get it over with. Hey Chef, I got hit with the wooden spoon (when she couldn't find the metal one) AND the good'ol "Wait 'till your father gets home." Of course I didn't "sweet" it out the rest of the day, but I sure did sweat a lot waiting for him to get home. Gotcha Cheffy! Posted by: Fweethawt May 24 2004, 09:01 PM QUOTE (reach @ May 24 2004, 09:50 PM) Casey and Fwee, embracing you in great love, Reach Hey Casey, did you feel that? Ain't she the sweetest? Posted by: Reach May 25 2004, 12:05 PM We are your children. Out of the infinite we have come to you, and through you. We are the old, yet ever new, miracle of incarnation. Give us a chance to grow, within the warmth of your unfailing love, into souls sensitive to beauty, hearts open to love and hungry for the imperishable values of life. Do not shrink and wither us with fear, but quicken with faith the springs of courage within us. Enter with us, through the gates of wonder, into the wider perspectives of the morrow. Accept us, as we grow, into a fellowship of mutual respect and shared responsibilities, that we, in our turn, may be worthy fathers and mothers of the coming generation. ~W. Waldemar W. Argow~ Posted by: Lokmer May 29 2004, 10:06 PM Growing up in Dallas, in a fundie church, regular beatings for the slightest infraction was the order of the day - it was so blase and normal that it was routine and didn't really result in terror, though I think the reason for this is that my mother (who was the only one who was home) hated doing it and refused to lord it over us. She simply did it because it was how God said children should be raised. Dad was another matter. My father needed control. Some people get their PhDs because they are pursuing something, some of them because they are running from something, and some of them because they need the credentials to make themselves feel worthwhile. He was a mix of the three, with a heavy emphasis on the latter. And although I missed him throughout my childhood, as he was off pursuing his degree and using any excuse he could to be away from the family, in retrospect it was a good thing. When he was around he was the man with two faces - very affectionate and otherwise reserved most of the time, punctuated by violent fits of rage in which most everyone would cower. And the rage was undirected - it did not fall on the person who had irritated him, and it was never proportional. There were a number of occasions where I was picked up by my hair and thrown down the stairs, though luckily there were never any broken bones. Most of the time, my mother was able to get us all to go to our rooms or play outside when my father was in tinderbox mode, but there were moments. The final moment came when I was fifteen. One of my younger brothers attacked another one with a knife (I think it was a knife - the lead in part of the memory is a bit fuzzy). So, I disarmed him and pinned him to the fgorund, and called Mom in. Well, Dad came. He picked me up by my throat and lifted me, slamming me against the kitchen cabinet and started screaming in my face that I had no right to protect anyone in his house. Something inside me snapped. Too many years of terror from him, and bullying from others (as a good Christian, my parents had taught me that it was sinful to stand up for myself). I punched him in the diaphragm and lifted him up by the lapels and slammed him against the other cabinet, and screamed something terrible in his face. I can't even remember the words I used, only that they were the foulest, most hateful things I have ever said in my life, before or since. My mother and brothers evacuated the house, and Dad and I tussled for another five minutes before he grabbed for my throat again. I grabbed a weapon (I think it was a baton or a bar from my weight set) and swung as hard as I could at the light bulb hanging from the lamp over his head. I wanted to kill him, but I loved him too much and I couldn't bring myself to damage him. When I slammed into that lightbulb, his face changed, and I saw on him a look of abject terror that I will never forget. He fell back against the wall and hugged it - he couldn't move. I turned around and left the room, apologized to my mother, and left. I stayed at a friend's house for a few days, until a mutual friend was able to broker a deal between us. Fear of hell did not ever play a big role in my very Calvanist household, because we were all Christians. But fear was always there. And from that fear I learned cruelty and terror - how to inflict them, and how to survive them, and how to completely shut everything down (to the point where I once cut my finger nearly off with an axe and didn't feel it). And I learned about the terrible monster that I could become, and for a long time I lived in terror of the beast within myself that came out that night. In the three years that followed, though, I learned that fear is a soluble substance. Love drives it out - particularly reckless love. I was recklessly loved by a particular friend, who was strong enough to give me the permission to be ugly when I needed to, and did not leave me as long as I needed him. He became a second father for me my last couple of years at home, and to this day I'm certain that his friendship saved my life in more than one fashion - and on many different occasions. And because of that friendship (and others), I was able - after several years - to not only forgive my parents, but to become very good friends with my father. Love is honest. It shows you yourself stripped of all illusions, the beautiful and the ugly. And it shows you others in the same light. Dad was (and still is, really) a very frightened and insecure man - a scared six year old wrapped in an adult body who is most often way out of his depth. But he is also a man of great integrity and honor, who is far too hard on himself, with great potential yet to be realized, and tremendous beauty of the soul. When you see someone for who they truly are, you are able to love them without fear. Love is the acid that eats away at the walls that fear builds. And gratitude is the smoke arising from the crumbled, burning walls. That changed everything. And it continues to, every day. -Lokmer Posted by: formerfundie May 29 2004, 10:53 PM Dontcha just LOVE this guy? *Big sigh* He's astute and philosophical - an intellectual gem, not only that but he has a cute butt (okay, ya know I had to throw that in there - hope SK doesn't mind too much). I'm posting while under the influence - you know how hard it is to type like this???? It is so fortuitous we are able to have him here, ya think? Posted by: sexkitten May 30 2004, 07:19 PM QUOTE (formerfundie @ May 29 2004, 10:53 PM) Dontcha just LOVE this guy? *Big sigh* He's astute and philosophical - an intellectual gem, not only that but he has a cute butt (okay, ya know I had to throw that in there - hope SK doesn't mind too much). Hee! Don't worry... I'm not the jealous or possessive type. (I think it would be unfair to the world to keep him to myself ) Anyways, comments like yours make me almost as happy and glowy inside as it makes him. And, yeah... he IS a pretty great guy. Posted by: formerfundie May 30 2004, 10:15 PM QUOTE (sexkitten @ May 30 2004, 07:19 PM) QUOTE (formerfundie @ May 29 2004, 10:53 PM) Dontcha just LOVE this guy? *Big sigh* He's astute and philosophical - an intellectual gem, not only that but he has a cute butt (okay, ya know I had to throw that in there - hope SK doesn't mind too much). Hee! Don't worry... I'm not the jealous or possessive type. (I think it would be unfair to the world to keep him to myself ) Anyways, comments like yours make me almost as happy and glowy inside as it makes him. And, yeah... he IS a pretty great guy. Glad you cleared that up - I'd hate to have a run in with "sniper kitty" - I think you need to incorporate that somehow in the, "When Biggles gets bored" thread, hehe. No one EVER wants to fall victim to the feline wrath of....ta da...SNIPER KITTY! Just thought I'd throw that out there, see where the wind blows it, whatever... Posted by: Reality Amplifier Jun 25 2004, 10:43 PM I thought about posting this on a new thread, but this fits in right in with this thread... I was driving to work this morning, and read this bumper-sticker on a car in front of me: IF YOU’RE LIVING YOUR LIFE LIKE THERE’S NO GOD YOU’D BETTER BE SURE YOU'RE RIGHT! The top caption was black font on a white background. The bottom half where with the caption "You'd Better be Sure You're Right!" had flames licking up around the letters, with the flames coming up out of a black background, as if out of a pit - similar to above, but minus the devil faces. It's amazing to me how fear-based Christianity is... Turn or Burn Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com) © Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com) |