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| Printable Version of Topic Click here to view this topic in its original format ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > The Definition Of A "christian" Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 22 2004, 10:29 AM So far, among all the questions I’ve been given here, the one I keep running into is, “How do you define a ‘TRUE’ Christian Jay?” – Or some rendition thereof. To my knowledge (as far as I remember) I’ve only given an answer to that question to one person here: Bob. Bob asked me how I would define a “true Christian” and I answered him by saying that my opinion or definition isn’t important, and I suggested that he read the Bible to find out. While I do admit that probably wasn’t the answer he was looking for (or any of you for that matter), I was attempting to drive home a point; that among the many definitions of a “Christian,” the only one that really matters is that of the Bible’s. To many of you, it may just seem like a “pat” answer, one to ridicule and suggest that I’m only evading, dismissing, or just plain dumb (actually “ignorant” is the word I see a lot). That’s completely understandable to me, since making reference to read a book that you don’t believe in is comparable to me being told to leave cookies for Santa Claus. I understand however, that this doesn’t communicate anything directly about me, my beliefs, and my definition – which is what was asked of me in the first place. That’s why I was inclined to write this; to give my answer and hopefully provide a better understanding of what I believe a “true Christian” is. So I’ll begin (and I’ll try to keep it short). I read something that Tocis said, and I think he’s onto something! QUOTE “We aren't talking about "the" bible, but about each and every person's personal interpretation of the bible…” I would agree that the definition of a “true” Christian would largely depend on one’s interpretation of scripture as it pertains to the life of a “believer.” Let’s not speculate though, let’s look at what the Bible defines a true Christian to be (through my POV). Jesus says when talking about false teachers in Matthew 7:16 “By their fruit you will recognize them.” What is this “fruit”? Well, we find out in Galations 5:22-23, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." To study further, we would have to see how the Bible defines these fruits individually. For the sake of avoiding a novel, we’ll move along for now. The Bible also says that the world will know a true Christian by their love: Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” In 1 John 3:14, we see how to “know” a true believer, “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.” We “know” because we “love our brothers.” The Bible has a lot to say about love! 1 John 4:7-12 Gives us a pretty good summary, “Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.” I personally believe the single biggest way to recognize a true believer, is to see the way they treat other people – look at how they love. Biblical love: - Accepts every person, regardless of anything! No prejudices. - Doesn’t delight in evil – in doing wrong, to people, places, in any way shape or form. - It isn’t boastful, or self-seeking. No pride, looks for ways to serve others first. - Isn’t rude or easily angered. (More on this is in 1 Corinthians 13) Biblical love is self sacrifice – that’s why Christians believe Jesus is the perfect example of that love; He was the ultimate sacrifice. I believe a “true Christian” would emulate the life of Jesus the best way possible. Hence, the word “CHRIST-ian” = “little Christ” or “Christ follower.” Now I admit, every Christian has their issues, and we all fall short of this goal. That’s where the topic of grace comes in. But according to the Bible, a true believer will continue to persevere – regardless of how many times they “fall short.” Pitchu, you brought up a good point in regards to my statement given as to why I'm still a Christian: "The lives that reflect it." To answer, I would simply say this. That the reason behind my statement was based on certain people I know personally, that reflect the kind of life I've spoken about here. I can't and won't hold that same statement to people I don't even know. In other words, I will knowingly only apply that statement to people that I am able to witness first hand, the "fruit" of their lives and therefore make that determination. If you'd like to talk more about this, I'll be more than happy to oblige. WOW! Another novel - sorry everybody. Jay Posted by: No surprises Jan 22 2004, 11:11 AM Jay, I think that it was a good idea to start this thread. For me, it's easier to look at things, THAT IN AND OF THEMSELVES; Don't make you a "true Christian." 1.)Church attendance 2.)Bible reading/knowledge 3.)Christian parents/household 4.)A position of leadership in a Christian organization 5.)National origin 6.)Baptism 7.)Religious Rituals 8.)Repeating a prayer that means nothing to you Jesus Christ is the only one that has the right to judge if we are a "true" Christian or not. People judging other people...is not of Christ. Jeff Posted by: moorezw Jan 22 2004, 11:28 AM JayS8NT- Jesus said a lot of things. Does a True Christian follow everything he said? He says in Matthew 19:12- QUOTE For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. Does that mean that some True Christians don't have testicles? Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 22 2004, 12:02 PM Hey Jeff, Great idea! Thanks for that post - I agree with every one of those. You're right, we aren't called to "judge" other people's character or eternal destination. But we are called to be "fruit" inspectors, in order to use discernment as to who is walking vs. who is talking. Moorezw, Pretty clever indeed! However, this wasn't a command from Jesus. The disciples are asking Jesus about celibacy, divorce, marriage, etc. (those kinds of issues) in the previous verse. Jesus answers by saying that there are some that have been born with the inability to reproduce. There are some that have been castrated. And there are some that have simply claimed a vow of celibacy for the sake of their ministry ("the kingdom"). Not all are "called" to this, which is why Jesus prefaced the statement by saying, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given..." Jay Posted by: Redshift Jan 22 2004, 12:02 PM QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 22 2004, 09:28 PM) Jesus said a lot of things. Does a True Christian follow everything he said? Here's another gem from Mat 15. He likens the gentile woman to a dog and He only grants her her wish once she admits to being a dog. I wonder if He includes all modern Christians, apart from Jews for Jesus, in this category? QUOTE 22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast [it] to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. 28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour Posted by: Reach Jan 22 2004, 12:05 PM Matthew 19:12- For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 22 2004, 11:28 AM) Does that mean that some True Christians don't have testicles? LOL. Silly moorezw! You know that is figurative and refers to a chosen life of abstinence from sexual relationships. Silly moorezw! *wink* reach Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 22 2004, 12:10 PM Hi Redshift, Are you looking for an explanation of those verses? Or, are you simply making a statement for me to consider? I'm not sure what the intention behind your post is. If you're looking for the explanation, I'll oblige. I just didn't want to go all into the explanation if you're not looking for one, make sense? Thanks, Jay Posted by: BillJ Jan 22 2004, 12:14 PM Jesus condones the killing of his enemies... Lk. 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be a king over them — bring them here and kill them in front of me. Mt. 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Mt. 10:35 For I have come to turn “`a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-inlaw Mt. 10:36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ [Micah 7:6] Mt. 10:37 “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; Mt. 10:38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Mt. 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Jesus comes to bring violence, he comes to make family members enemies of each other. He says that anyone who loves their family more than him is not worthy. Mt. 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. Mt. 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Jesus believes that parts unrelated to thinking are the cause of sins. Jesus also used the fear of hell because this is around the time when this horrible religion almost died, and only the use of fear would make it an effective tool. If you are a true christian you are expect to gouge your eyes out or cut off your hands if they make you sin, you are expected to condone the killings of unbelievers and cursing children. Mt. 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, Mt. 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Mt. 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? Mt. 15:4 For God said, `Honour your father and mother’ [Exodus 20:12; Deut. 5:16] and `Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’ [Exodus 21:17; Lev. 20:9] Jesus accepted the sick teachings of the old testament. Mt. 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. Mt. 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (Old testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. Mt. 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Mt. 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practises and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Posted by: BillJ Jan 22 2004, 12:23 PM QUOTE (reach @ Jan 22 2004, 03:05 PM) Matthew 19:12- For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to receive this, let him receive it. QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 22 2004, 11:28 AM) Does that mean that some True Christians don't have testicles? LOL. Silly moorezw! You know that is figurative and refers to a chosen life of abstinence from sexual relationships. Silly moorezw! *wink* reach I have to disagree, eunuch is a castrated man, and it says that there have been eunuchs who have been so from birth. I don't know why they woud talk about sexual abstinence from birth when we know that babies aren't sexually active. eu·nuch n. A castrated man employed as a harem attendant or as a functionary in certain Asian courts. A man or boy whose testes are nonfunctioning or have been removed. Informal. An ineffectual, powerless, or unmasculine man. Posted by: Redshift Jan 22 2004, 12:23 PM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 10:10 PM) Hi Redshift, Are you looking for an explanation of those verses? Or, are you simply making a statement for me to consider? I'm not sure what the intention behind your post is. If you're looking for the explanation, I'll oblige. I just didn't want to go all into the explanation if you're not looking for one, make sense? Thanks, Jay Hi I'd say that I phrased it as both an expression of outrage (the Bible tends to outrage me a little) and also a question. If you feel that it is a question that you would like to answer, feel free to do so. In the interests of clarity, I'll rephrase it a little. Given that Jesus seems to have little regard here for any but the lost sheep of Israel, are non-Jewish Christians really welcome in the Kingdom of Heaven or will they always be a little more dog-like in the eyes of God? EDIT= Sorry I should have included that my example was inspired by one of your listed true Christian traits: QUOTE - Accepts every person, regardless of anything! No prejudices. Posted by: God's Prosecutor Jan 22 2004, 12:24 PM You've done a good job of describing all of the Muslims that I've ever gotten to know personally. QUOTE The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Yup! QUOTE "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself." Yup! QUOTE "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death." Yup! QUOTE "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. This is how God showed his love among us: [Insert your dogma here.] Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us." Yup! I will admit that I only know a handful so my statistics may be skewed. Could they really be Christians and not even know it? You cast a very big net. I think you might have even caught an agnostic or two. Posted by: michelle Jan 22 2004, 12:34 PM Okay. I never ever read bible versus but I did read this whole thread and what did I find out? I am not a Christian. Thanks Bill. Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 22 2004, 12:48 PM Hi Prosecutor, Although I agree that many Muslems practice much of this in their lives, there is one screaming difference: These verses are in reference to believers of the Hebrew God - the God of the Bible. Point taken though. It's true that there are many people that apply these things to their lives, and aren't necessarily Christians. On another note, it looks like the definition was clear enough for Michelle to determine that it doesn't define her. Many thanks Michelle. Jay Posted by: Lokmer Jan 22 2004, 12:55 PM Jay, if your definition (love, fruits of the spirit, etc.) were all it took, I would still be a Christian today. There are a couple of problems: 1) The people that wrote and allegedly said these things did not demonstrate that which they preached. Jesus was brutal to his enemies - vindictive and foul in insults to them, wishing them blood and death (As illustrated above). Paul called the "Judaizers" tools of Satan spewing lies from the pit of hell (Galations and Phillipians IIRC, and perhaps Romans as well). James (one of the Judaizers - suprise suprise) returned the favor in his epistle by calling Paul's gospel of faith alone a lie from satan, and those who espouse it "antichrists." However, that in itself is not enough for me to chuch Christianity altogether if all it is is a gospel of love/loving behavior modeled on the words of a man who could not live up to his own standards. The standards are still good. But the problem comes from the creeds. 2) A Christian, as far as I'm concerned, should be able to recite at least one of the historic creeds (Apostles, Nicean, or similar) with integrity. I realized I was not a Christian when I could no longer recite the creeds. I do not believe that Jesus was God, I do not believe in a literal trinity, I do not believe in original sin as formulated by Paul (a doctrine which Jesus apparently did not share, BTW), I do not believe in the resurrection, I am certain that the holy spirit does not dwell in the church, and I am not a theist (I'm wavering between agnostic and panentheist if you're interested). The church that Paul built, supposedly on the words and work of Jesus (let's give the benefit of the doubt for the moment) has not consistantly demonstrated any of the fruits of the spirit - not even the early church of Paul's era. Or did you not notice that he is continually trying to get those who are born of the spirit to behave properly? Did you not notice his own arrogance and doubletalk and self-aggrandizement at the expense of the original 12 disciples? His abusive language towards those of whom he disapproves? The utter lack of compassion he shows Christians who continue to sin? He does not demonstrate the qualities that he advocates - at least not consistantly. Nor did Jesus. Nor did James. Nor did the Popes, the bishops, or the clergy from then until the reformation. Nor did Calvin and Luther, both of whom murdered and called for the murder of Protestants who disagreed with them, "farted at the children of Satan" (Luther gloried in doing this), encouraged witch burning, championed slavery, and urged the exile and murder of the Jews. Nor has much changed since then. If the fruits of the spirit are the measure of God's presence, then Christianity is not from God. And so, I am not a Christian. -Lokmer Posted by: No surprises Jan 22 2004, 01:22 PM Bill, Here is the definition from the greek. NT:2135 eunouchos (yoo-noo'-khos); from eune (a bed) and NT:2192; a castrated person (such being employed in Oriental bed-chambers); by extension an impotent or unmarried man; by implication, a chamberlain (state-officer): (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Posted by: moorezw Jan 22 2004, 01:40 PM QUOTE (reach @ Jan 22 2004, 03:05 PM) LOL. Silly moorezw! You know that is figurative and refers to a chosen life of abstinence from sexual relationships. Silly moorezw! *wink* reach Reach- LOL. Silly Origen! You know that is figurative and refers to a chosen life of abstinence from sexual relationships. Silly Origen! *wink* Posted by: Tocis Jan 22 2004, 01:44 PM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 10:29 AM) I read something that Tocis said, and I think he’s onto something! QUOTE “We aren't talking about "the" bible, but about each and every person's personal interpretation of the bible…” I would agree that the definition of a “true” Christian would largely depend on one’s interpretation of scripture as it pertains to the life of a “believer.” Let’s not speculate though, let’s look at what the Bible defines a true Christian to be (through my POV). [...] Jay, your definition of a "true christian" is largely the same that Germans tend to use - those who still try to take their faith seriously, that is. It is, I think, a very sensible definition, and if all christians would be like that I guess there would be much less problems. However, even with your own definitions problems arise. You wrote that true christian love does not engage in evil, and is all-encompassing... ...now what is a christian to do when he encounters homosexuals? All-encompassing demands that he treats them no different than heterosexuals, but still the bible condemns homosexuality (if we take it literally). Does extending his love toward homosexuals make him an evil person? And this is but one of the many contradictions in the bible that make christian life terribly hard. I agree with your point of view (it was mine too when I was a christian), but there are altogether too many possibilities to say "no, a true christian is like THAT: (insert any other definition here)"... almost everything can be backed up by the bible. My personal "way out" was to, whenever in doubt, choose the possibility that will result in the least harm to others if it should be the wrong one... or in other words, when in doubt, be as nice as possible. It worked... at least as far as I can tell. Pity that others see it differently. Posted by: BillJ Jan 22 2004, 01:57 PM QUOTE (No surprises @ Jan 22 2004, 04:22 PM) Bill, Here is the definition from the greek. NT:2135 eunouchos (yoo-noo'-khos); from eune (a bed) and NT:2192; a castrated person (such being employed in Oriental bed-chambers); by extension an impotent or unmarried man; by implication, a chamberlain (state-officer): (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) Eunuch is an improper word to use if that verse is meant to mean sexual abstinence. Eunuch is a castrated person or someone who has testicles that do not function anymore, but why would it teach abstinence when it tells you to be fruitful and multiply? I thought it was a sin to not have any kids am I wrong? Posted by: No surprises Jan 22 2004, 02:12 PM Bill, The Bible advocates abstinence to unmarried people. Paul advocated staying single so that there wouldn't be any distractions in your walk with Christ. He conceded that this wasn't for everybody though. Jeff Posted by: God's Prosecutor Jan 22 2004, 02:22 PM I only have a minute to reply right now, but I'll have more to say later... Jay, you may not be aware of this, but Muslim's claim Abraham as the father of their faith and the god of Abraham as their god. Posted by: pitchu Jan 22 2004, 02:30 PM Y'know, I have no way to, nor any interest in, requiring the filling out of the religious SATS in order to determine whether or not I'm in the presence of a "real" Christian. And since, as an atheist, I can't for the life of me fathom why one would care to call her or himself a Christian (I mean, are there just lots of people who think this is a great practical joke?) if they didn't consider themselves to be, I have no option but to take their word for it. No? Do the Christians here think I have an obligation to sort them out? Or think I have an obligation to take the word of Christian "X" that Christian "Y" falls short of the mark? Then do I have an obligation to tell "Y" she is not a real... oy, oy, oy. This is, to me, just another "Christianity Insanity" which you guys will never resolve because muddlement and befuddlement is in the interests of keeping any particular flock feeling special, looking to other than reason for answers, and in a desperately tithing mood. This is crazy stuff. Posted by: BillJ Jan 22 2004, 02:34 PM Thanks Jeff!! QUOTE Mt. 19:12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage [Or have made themselves eunuchs] because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it. The only part I don't understand is when it says "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way" I don't understand how a new born child could practise abstinence when new borns aren't sexually developing. That is the only problem I have with this above verse. I know that the bible uses the word eunuch in other verses but is refering to a chamberlain [eunuch]. Ester 2:14 "In the evening she went, and on the morrow she returned into the second house of the women, to the custody of Shaashgaz, the king's chamberlain, which kept the concubines: she came in unto the king no more, except the king delighted in her, and that she were called by name". Chamberlain is the exact same word [caric] that is also translated to eunuch. Eunuchs were generally given much authority over women's quarters and the management of these chambers. Posted by: gecko Jan 22 2004, 02:35 PM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 12:48 PM) Although I agree that many Muslems practice much of this in their lives, there is one screaming difference: These verses are in reference to believers of the Hebrew God - the God of the Bible. Jay, You do realize the typical Christian position on this is heavily debated, right? While I do understand your point in relationship to your faith, I think it's only fair to let the Muslim's speak for themselves as to just who that God is they believe in. Thus, from: http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=4814 The Holy Qur’an, which is the guidance of God revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) emphatically says, God is One and One Only. And what is more, it emphasizes that the Muslim is a person who believes in all the Books of God and in all His prophets. This is clearly stated in Surah 2, verse 136: *{Say: “We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in [the Books] given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will [in Islam].”}* From the foregoing, the following points become clear: The God of the Qur’an is the same as the God of the Torah and the Gospel. Muhammad (pbuh) taught the same religion taught by all the prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them all). I find the distinction you make about these verses only referencing "believers" (i.e. Christians) very interesting in light of the FACT that Christians often use this very same sermon to point the finger at any people who believe differently than them. For instance: Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Two verses commonly thrown in my face during debates to imply they are describing me. So which is it? This is wisdom that can be utilized in all of life's situations, or this is exclusive to Christians? With all due respect, I find this very thing to be more of the double standard (not saying you necessarily) I've been observing for a couple of years now in Christian forums. That is to say, the typical interpretation coming forward through the Christian mindset is this, know them by their fruit, but the fruit doesn't reveal anything or mean anything "good" or spirtually connected to God unless the person is a follower of Christ. If it's "bad" fruit then by all means this verse applies and refers to non-believers. Or, if you are a Christian (and I don't like your interpretation or your views) then certainly I can use this against you too. Same thing can be done with the wolf in sheep's clothing. It's quite a loop hole that basically states, this never describes me (the Christian) but you (the non-believer, Muslim, lukewarm, pharisee, etc.) and whenever I want it to. Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Do you believe these verses? Let me guess. The answer is yes, but only as long as what is given, found, and openned is a Christian belief just like yours? Posted by: Libertus Jan 22 2004, 02:37 PM QUOTE (No surprises @ Jan 22 2004, 02:12 PM) Bill, The Bible advocates abstinence to unmarried people. Paul advocated staying single so that there wouldn't be any distractions in your walk with Christ. He conceded that this wasn't for everybody though. Jeff Jeff Actually Paul said that it would be great or ideal for a man to stay single, BUT since we are human each man SHOULD take a wife. It's not quite as simple as, "not for everyone". Xpen Posted by: chefranden Jan 22 2004, 06:42 PM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 02:48 PM) Hi Prosecutor, Although I agree that many Muslems practice much of this in their lives, there is one screaming difference: These verses are in reference to believers of the Hebrew God - the God of the Bible. Point taken though. It's true that there are many people that apply these things to their lives, and aren't necessarily Christians. On another note, it looks like the definition was clear enough for Michelle to determine that it doesn't define her. Many thanks Michelle. Jay Belief is the rub, is it not. A person can practice all the qualities listed above in your first post, yet with out belief s/he is nothing. Filthy rags, I think the term is. Now do we know that you are a Truechristian by what we see you do? Of course not you; must believe correctly to be a Truechristian. You have decided that part of believing correctly is how you act. If you reject even one sect of xtians because of certain belief or non-belief in spite of the fact that said sect produces the behavior already described, then something else determines in your mind what a Truechristian is. If it is only the behavior that determines the Truechristian then a Muslim, or indeed even an atheist can be a Truechristian. Are any of these not Christians? * Jehovah's Witnesses * Mormons * Christian Scientists * Nestorians * Amish * Branch Davidians * Unitarian Universalist Christian Fellowship Posted by: bob Jan 22 2004, 07:38 PM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 10:29 AM) I would agree that the definition of a “true” Christian would largely depend on one’s interpretation of scripture as it pertains to the life of a “believer.” Let’s not speculate though, let’s look at what the Bible defines a true Christian to be (through my POV). Well, we find out in Galations 5:22-23, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." The Bible also says that the world will know a true Christian by their love: Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” In 1 John 3:14, we see how to “know” a true believer, “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.” I personally believe the single biggest way to recognize a true believer, is to see the way they treat other people – look at how they love. Biblical love is self sacrifice – that’s why Christians believe Jesus is the perfect example of that love; He was the ultimate sacrifice. I believe a “true Christian” would emulate the life of Jesus the best way possible. Hence, the word “CHRIST-ian” = “little Christ” or “Christ follower.” Hi Jay, Just a few thoughts of mine. They will most likely be a jumbled mass of confusion due to my very week grasp around the handle of continuity. You have given a biblical description of the attributes you consider a true christian will exhibit. Mostly consisting of love. One thing you didn't address was how one becomes a true christian. By the way, please don't be offended by my use of the lower case "c" in "christian". It's my own form of protest. You quote Matthew 7:16 “By their fruit you will recognize them.” I have to assume that this was written to christians. Christians will recognize other christians by their fruit. How am I, a heathen, apostate, infidel, child of Satan, going to be able to recognize whether a person is a true of fake christian? At this point, I have no choice but to throw out the bible as a source for defining the attributes of a true christian. It is not relevant to the debate since many participants in the debate do not consider it valid. In my mind, a true christian is anyone who believes in the biblical god/Jesus. If I questioned 10,000 people, asking this one question; Do you believe in the biblical god and the biblical Jesus?, and 80% answered "yes", I would consider them all christians. We can eliminate the word "true". You are either a believer or not. But just because you believe doesn't mean you are a fundamentalist. You may be a liberal backslider, but still a believer in the bible god/Jesus. You probably can not accept my criteria due to the concept of heaven and hell. In your mind, true christians go to heaven, while fake ones go to hell. Since I don't believe in either location, anyone who claims christianity as their faith, in my mind, is a christian. It seems to me that you actually have to follow my criteria. It's fairly easy to use the term "true christian", but if you confront two people who claim to believe in the bible god/Jesus, the only way you would actually know if one was not a christian is if they told you secretly that they were lying. The use of love as the determining factor is completely irrational (biblical). I am an atheist. I love my friends and family. I hate injustice, even when I see a complete stranger experiencing it. I hate to see anyone treated with anything other than compassion and respect. I watch the show "COPS" on occasion. I even hate to see how they treat criminals. Is compassion a form of this love you talk about? If so, how can an atheist display the same characteristics that you use to define a "true christian"? I'm afraid that the only criteria that makes any sense is whether the person believes in the bible god/Jesus. When it comes to religion, a person is what he/she claims. If you use any other criteria, every christians authenticity can be called into question by the christian standing behind them in line at the grocery store. Posted by: SpaceFalcon2001 Jan 22 2004, 07:42 PM chef, take out UU and tack on Messianic Jews and Catholics, and you've got the list of christians that really make me shudder. Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 22 2004, 07:48 PM QUOTE (gecko @ Jan 22 2004, 02:35 PM) QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 12:48 PM) Although I agree that many Muslems practice much of this in their lives, there is one screaming difference: These verses are in reference to believers of the Hebrew God - the God of the Bible. Jay, You do realize the typical Christian position on this is heavily debated, right? While I do understand your point in relationship to your faith, I think it's only fair to let the Muslim's speak for themselves as to just who that God is they believe in. Jay, I picture Muslims recoiling at that statement too. Maybe you feel that they've evolved the Hebrew god beyond recognition by christians, but christians have evolved the Hebrew god beyond recognition by the Jews as well. Muslims honor the ONE and ONLY godhead, the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who created the universe. I think that's a little closer to the original than what the christians did with the Hebrew god. QUOTE Now I admit, every Christian has their issues, and we all fall short of this goal. That’s where the topic of grace comes in. But according to the Bible, a true believer will continue to persevere – regardless of how many times they “fall short.” I appreciate you comment about perseverance being a qualifier for true christianity. It sounds like we all sort of fall in and out of the boundary lines of love and fruits, but a christian just has to try harder to stay in bounds. I'm particularly interested in what gives you your initial feeling of assurance that you're saved. If one has said the words over and over with no confirming feeling, will it come magically one day once they've tried hard enough? Several here have reported being re-born-again several times to try to make the experience feel legitimate. Do you just get confirmation on the days that you persevere well enough? And that scripture; QUOTE Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. sounds awfully exclusive and arrogant if you don't recognize Allah as God. Eerily like, "Whoever is not for us is against us." Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 23 2004, 09:11 AM As usual, you all have given me so much to chew on! I really appreciate all your feedback. Unfortunately, today is going to require a lot of time at work. It's going to be a pretty busy Friday for me. I do want to answer all your questions, and I definitely will. I'm going to attempt to get myself to a computer over the weekend and tackle each of the posts. Until then, I hope you all have a great Friday! Jay Posted by: No surprises Jan 23 2004, 09:31 AM QUOTE (No surprises @ Jan 22 2004, 02:12 PM) Bill, The Bible advocates abstinence to unmarried people. Paul advocated staying single so that there wouldn't be any distractions in your walk with Christ. He conceded that this wasn't for everybody though. Jeff Jeff Actually Paul said that it would be great or ideal for a man to stay single, BUT since we are human each man SHOULD take a wife. It's not quite as simple as, "not for everyone". Xpen Xpen, this was the verse that I was thinking of: 1 Cor 7:32-39 32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord--how he may please the Lord. 33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world--how he may please his wife. 34 There is a difference between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman cares about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she who is married cares about the things of the world--how she may please her husband. 35 And this I say for your own profit, not that I may put a leash on you, but for what is proper, and that you may serve the Lord without distraction. 36 But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry. 37 Nevertheless he who stands steadfast in his heart, having no necessity, but has power over his own will, and has so determined in his heart that he will keep his virgin, does well. 38 So then he who gives her in marriage does well, but he who does not give her in marriage does better. NKJV Jeff Bill, We were discussing eunuchs, and you said:"The only [COLOR=blue]part I don't understand is when it says "For some are eunuchs because they were born that way" I think what it is saying is that their are 3 types of Eunuchs. 1.)Born that way 2.)Done surgically for various reasons(ie..chamberlain) Although eunuchs by birth were also great for that job...talk about job discrimination! 3.)Men that are intact and functional, but choose not to use their organs for devotional reasons. It is the same as today as far as terminology goes...people say "Joe doesn't have any balls." It usually means gumption...but it is possoble that joe is a toddler whose testicles never dropped. I think that the writer was trying to clarify which "eunuch" that he was talking about. Jeff Posted by: Human1345KWTX5 Jan 23 2004, 10:59 AM QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 22 2004, 10:29 AM) The Bible also says that the world will know a true Christian by their love: Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” Hi Jay, Hi everybody & a belated Happy New Year to you all, wishing you nothing but the very best for 2004! Did you get my mail, Jeff? Great to see you here again! Perhaps you could shed some light on some later questions of mine? I've been on Mars for a spell, trip was great, hence my late return... Once upon a time I was an xian. That's probably the reason I'm here today. I really struggled with that one. In fact, I've given up on it. I think it's quite impossible for anybody to love one's neighbour as though he was one's self. Anybody care to disagree? I interpret that scripture as follows: pretend the next person is you. Now care for that person as though he was yourself. Make sure he's got food on his table, AT ALL COSTS!!! Make sure his rent/bond is paid. etc etc. Basically, pretend he's you, and care for him as if he were you. Does any xian do this? CAN any xian do this? Now if the xian standpoint is that Jesus died for each and every one of us, but we cannot follow his examples, then can we actually call ourselves xians? I've heard some folk paraphrase it as "Jesus expects us to lay down our lives for our fellow xians". I suppose everybody may from time to time find need to alter the rules to suit them, but I read it as talking about "neighbours" rather than "fellow xians". All my neighbours are Muslim. My xtion to xians would then be: Should I treat them as myself? Or did Jesus exclude them in an aside? Of course, Jesus' telling the desciples to not take even sandels with them when they go off to spread the word, he was naturally talking only to them 12 specifically. Naturally, we are worth more than the 12, and thus can keep all our riches, along with a few sets of sandels, shoes, etc. We as xian desciples of this radical millenium can keep all our riches, since it was only to the biblical period folk that he commanded to give all their riches to the needy. Us modern folk only need tithe 10%. Jay, I've given up quite some time ago. See, when I imagined Jesus talking to me, as one of his desciples, I found it to be simply too tall an order. Sure, I gave it all away a few times, but I simply one day had to conclude that I really have to look after my own ass, since nobody else will. Some church folk would even "rebuke me" for being so stupid, and this did influence my outlook somewhat. If following Jesus' teachings was being stupid, then I had two options to consider: 1) Perhaps they are right, and I should cease to be so stupid. 2) Perhaps they are wrong, and I should stop listening to their crap. So among many other considerations I began "grasshopping". I found it everywhere. It just seemed to me that all xian churches were composed of nothing more than people. People. Rather normal people. People who were looking after their own asses every day, gave only what they felt would make them feel better about themselves, and not let them feel "in the eyes" at their church. Everybody was fully entitled to be as selfish as can be, and so long as they said "Amen!" to whatever the pastor said, all was okay. Even if nobody, including the pastor himself, actually lived those preached scriptures out in their own lives. Jay, sorry to elongate this post, but I did also find something very interesting: All xians seemed to group in their cliques, and certainly evangelism, leading by example to others, etc, was top-priority. Spreading the good word was left rather to those who were endowed with such calling. Billy Graham, and such evangelists were clearly doing ample to spread the good word, that's why we're not all xian today. Jay, I gave up before I even was exposed to all the ambiguities and contradictions in the bible. Naturally, I'm not going to go into that, since this board has covered it in more detail than I could even read in a night! I suppose you could say that I ate of the tree of knowledge of good&evil, fell from grace, and have come to the conclusion that it was all a blindfold after all. Now that my blinkers have been removed, I find myself trying to navigate limbo. I conduct my life as anybody would, but I have no explanation as to why I exist - only a biological explanation as to why everybody else exists. But me? Don't see why I'm here observing all this? Any x-xian here care to comment on this? Webmaster? Seems to me I've been waiting for a bus where there was not even road? Posted by: God's Prosecutor Jan 23 2004, 11:37 AM Jay, QUOTE (Me) I only have a minute to reply right now, but I'll have more to say later... Jay, you may not be aware of this, but Muslim's claim Abraham as the father of their faith and the god of Abraham as their god. Jay, looks like others have already said what I wanted to say and did a better job of it than I would have...Gecko, chefranden, and bob in particular. QUOTE (You) On another note, it looks like the definition was clear enough for Michelle to determine that it doesn't define her. Maybe I read it wrong, but I think she was talking about Bill's post. But, yes, your run of the mill atheist would not fit your definition of a Christian, but only because of the parts of your definition that require a "relationship" with the "hebrew god." The VAST majority of people that I know "bear the fruits" that you listed every hour of their existence whether they are Christian or not. Maybe I don't get out enough, but I see nothing that would indicate that this is not true for the entire world...maybe even Michelle. Question: Your definition of "Christian" depends heavily on the definition of "love." What is the definition of "love" that you are using. I cannot think of any sensible definition of love that would require a third party to notify the "lovee" of the existence and nature of the "lover." I never need an outside party to tell me that my wife loves me. I don't even need a third party to tell me that one of my two cats loves me. (The other is completely indifferent, even though I love her to bits. Do you think she has ever questioned my existence?) How can the love of a house cat be more palpable, more self-evident, more life altering, and more undeniable than the love of a god? How would you know that the "hebrew god" existed and loved you if you didn't have someone else tell you? ... Oh! Wait! Nevermind... I just thought of one definition that would work. It's the kind of love where the "lovee" ends up on the dinner plate of the "lover." ( Just kidding.... I hope. ) Note to self: I have another question about "theological entropy" but I'm out of time right now. Posted by: No surprises Jan 24 2004, 03:01 AM Human! Welcome back, I missed you...I hope all is well. Jeff Posted by: No surprises Jan 24 2004, 04:48 AM {PITCHU QUOTE} Y'know, I have no way to, nor any interest in, requiring the filling out of the religious SATS in order to determine whether or not I'm in the presence of a "real" Christian. And since, as an atheist, I can't for the life of me fathom why one would care to call her or himself a Christian (I mean, are there just lots of people who think this is a great practical joke?) if they didn't consider themselves to be, I have no option but to take their word for it. No? Do the Christians here think I have an obligation to sort them out? Or think I have an obligation to take the word of Christian "X" that Christian "Y" falls short of the mark? Then do I have an obligation to tell "Y" she is not a real... oy, oy, oy. This is, to me, just another "Christianity Insanity" which you guys will never resolve because muddlement and befuddlement is in the interests of keeping any particular flock feeling special, looking to other than reason for answers, and in a desperately tithing mood. This is crazy stuff. Pitchu, I don't believe that this thread was intended to be 'The Atheists pocket Guide for Identifying Christians'. Jay used the expression "True Christian" a few times, and was questioned about it...I think that it took some guts to explain himself...In retrospect I wonder if maybe I should have just stayed clear of the topic altogether...There are other topics from you and Tex that have been very provocative and productive. I realize that on a daaily basis...some idiot gets on here and spouts off "You never were Christians, you weren't real Christians...blah, blah, blah"...I hate that with a passion. I can understand how this topic can be construed as very offensive...I don't think that it has to be. I do want to share my heart with you...I've gotten to know many of you quite well...I consider you my friends. In the course of our discussions, many have said that there was a time in their life where they prayed and asked God to forgive them, and surrendered their life to Jesus Christ...Folks, at that time you officially became a "true Christian" that was the initiation...hopefully it was a life-changing experience, and you sensed the presence of God in your life, followed by an attempt to live a Godly life. Contrary to some "Christian" opinions offered here...You CAN step away from, turn your back on, and reject Christ... after this point(see the eternal security thread)... I've been there and done that myself. There has also been many people that have said they were Christians previously...but then stated various reasons such as:I was born into a Christian family, I attended church twice a week and a bible study, some of you have flat-out said..."you know, I never really had any kind of a relationship wiith Christ", or "I prayed some prayer as a four yr old, to make my parents happy." I think that everyone here has experienced "Christianity" in some way, shape, or form...To be a "Christian" the way that Jesus Christ defines it...there has to be a point in your life where you have surrendered your life, and entered into a close personal relationship with Him. You can experience religion or Christianity, and still not be identified as a Christian by Christ. It doesn't matter if Timbuktu Congregational Church identifies you as a member and "Christian." It doesn't really matter what Jay or Jeff thinks about it...unless you're a Jaythian or Jeffthonian. I fear that many of you have experienced an ugly side of Christianity...the human side...been disgusted, and rejected it...never having the life-changing privilege of '"knowing Christ." There is also a large number of friends here that have researched the subject thoroughly, found the Christian faith/Bible to be illogical and unreasonable...whether they have experienced a personal relationship with Christ or not...and have rejected it. Most will probably never change this perspective...I love you no less, and am proud to be considered your friend...my attitude toward you will NEVER change. I pray that I never come across as anything more than humble...many here are more intelligent than I am, more educated and logical, I'm not even in the running here...hopefully, someday, when you talk about some of the more loving participants in this "community/family...some may think of me...that is my desire. Love, Jeff Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 24 2004, 05:28 AM QUOTE (No surprises @ Jan 24 2004, 04:48 AM) ...many have said that there was a time in their life where they prayed and asked God to forgive them, and surrendered their life to Jesus Christ...Folks, at that time you officially became a "true Christian" that was the initiation...hopefully it was a life-changing experience, and you sensed the presence of God in your life, followed by an attempt to live a Godly life. ...You can experience religion or Christianity, and still not be identified as a Christian by Christ. ...I fear that many of you have experienced an ugly side of Christianity...the human side...been disgusted, and rejected it...never having the life-changing privilege of '"knowing Christ." ...There is also a large number of friends here that have researched the subject thoroughly, found the Christian faith/Bible to be illogical and unreasonable...whether they have experienced a personal relationship with Christ or not...and have rejected it. Most will probably never change this perspective...I love you no less, and am proud to be considered your friend...my attitude toward you will NEVER change. Thank you for recognizing the amount of effort, intellectual and spiritual, that many on this site have expended in an effort share your faith. And the amount of effort they continue to expend to make sense of it. They followed the prescribed 3 or 5 step process, and some even felt that they had a close relationship with Jesus. For a while at least. It seems to take a lot of perseverance and continual effort to make that feeling stick. Especially once one starts to question the basis for their faith. God forbid that they should ever start to analyze those seeds of doubt. I'm curious about that statement that you can experience Christianity and not be identified by Christ as Christian. Posted by: .:WebMaster:. Jan 24 2004, 05:29 AM I had what you call a life changing experience and relationship with Christ. I spoke in tongues, witnessed on street corners and in houses, suffered persecution willingly in my job, was a leader to some and a fool to others, prayed for hours at a time and heard god speak directly to me in my heart. It is simply amazing the power that a healthy human imagination is capable of wielding over the person who possesses it. As I've grown older, I've discovered that I am an excellent manager, a fine actor, have photography skills, can envision and create original web design and imaging, and am able to express myself fairly well on paper - enough to earn a living at it. All these abilities come from an active imagination. I would suggest that those who really think a god speaks to them and that they really have a personal relationship with an invisible, immaterial entity, are not out of their minds, but do have a very active and convincing imagination. If that imagination were to be directed in productive ways, instead of following a myth, the heights of accomplishment by that person could be quite varied and impressive. Since accepting that I was only self-hypnotizing when it came to my Christian walk, I have been able to use the same basic "mind trick" to be much more effective in the many "roles" I find myself playing in life. Instead of just acting the part, I really believe and become the part. To a degree I am of the opinion that this is an unmined resource available to people everywhere to help them be more successful in life. I may be losing some who are reading, so let me bring the topic home. If I work as a salesman, and I am selling a product I believe is crap, I will be living a lie and a contradiction. Undoubtedly I will not make many sales. However, if the product I am selling, I really believe to be something everyone needs, I will make significantly more sales and have a whole lot more fun. That is the strength to believing. Reality in this example is nothing more than my perception of the product. My perception determines my behavior and success. When we learn to harness our ability to believe, through the power of imagination, we can do more, in all our endeavors. When I believed in Christ, I perceived all kinds of things as reality, which I now know was only pretend. I accomplished much with that belief and led many to Christ. Now I use that same mind technique to tell myself that I can do all these things listed above. Admittedly, I already had some talent in those directions, but by really believing in myself, I've been able to far surpass my initial goals. Okay, enough with the high-brow philosophizing. Back to reality... Posted by: bob Jan 24 2004, 07:59 AM Jeff, A few things you wrote stand out to me. QUOTE To be a "Christian" the way that Jesus Christ defines it...there has to be a point in your life where you have surrendered your life, and entered into a close personal relationship with Him. I just can't remember a passage in the bible where Jesus is defining what it means to be a christian. It has been so long since I have picked up the good book, so it may just be my lousy memory. I do remember the most oft quoted verse used to draw the lost into the fold; "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (Jesus) that whosoever believeth in him (Jesus) should not parish (in hell) but have everlasting life (in heaven)." It seems to me that if christians are going to use that verse in witnessing, then they should let it stand. Does the prospective convertee have to read the fine print? Do they have to "surrender" their life to Jesus also? (what does that mean?), before they are officially a "true" member of the club? Jeff, this is one of the reasons why those of us who have left, scratch our heads in amazement as to why so many people stay. QUOTE You can experience religion or Christianity, and still not be identified as a Christian by Christ. In essence, what you are saying is that you can never be 100% certain that you will go to heaven when you die. bob - How can I become a true christian? Reverend - Simple. Believe in Jesus. Jeff - No, don't tell him that, he has to surrender to Christ. Jay - You are both correct, but he also has to display love. QUOTE I fear that many of you have experienced an ugly side of Christianity...the human side...been disgusted, and rejected it...never having the life-changing privilege of '"knowing Christ." Dear, dear Jeff. There is only one side of christianity - the human side. Sometimes it is ugly, sometimes it is nice. That's humanity. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. If there was a good god, who allowed his followers to do bad things, he wouldn't be much of a god. As far as "knowing Christ" being a "life-changing privilege", it's all in your head. You changed your life. maybe with the help of your christian friends, but ultimately, your attitude changed because of you. QUOTE I love you no less, and am proud to be considered your friend...my attitude toward you will NEVER change. And I think I can speak for most on this forum....we are grateful. A person can't have to many friends. But we would also wish that you could see that your attitude toward us comes from inside you. Possibly influenced by some verses in the bible, but it is you that cares for us. Why give the credit to an ancient mythical being? You are a nice guy. You probably were a nice guy before you became a christian. I was a nice guy before I "surrendered". I was a nice guy after. And I am a nice guy since I have...uh...unsurrendered. Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 24 2004, 09:21 AM QUOTE (bob @ Jan 24 2004, 07:59 AM) ...that whosoever believeth in him (Jesus) should not parish (in hell) but have everlasting life (in heaven). Pun intended? Perish the thought. Good one either way! The talk of eunuchs and castration earlier on this thread and my earlier reference to the Monica leaf reminded me of another passage I read in "Angels and Demons" about The Great Castration; QUOTE It was one of the most horrific tragedies in Renaissance art. In 1857, Pope Pius IX decided that the accurate representation of the male form might incite lust inside the Vatican. So he got a chisel and mallet and hacked off the genitalia of every male statue inside Vatican City. He defaced works by Michelangelo, Bramante, and Bernini. Plaster fig leaves were used to patch up the damage. Hundreds of sculptures had been emasculated. Langdon had often wondered if there was a huge crate of stone penises someplace. Posted by: SuicydeAlley Jan 24 2004, 09:40 AM I was always taught that the definition of the word meant simply..."Follower of Christ". Posted by: panda Jan 24 2004, 10:03 AM Hi everyone, I'm new...and don't intend to post often, for lack of time. Jay is my friend and he sent me here. I'm a Christian. QUOTE It is simply amazing the power that a healthy human imagination is capable of wielding over the person who possesses it. |