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| Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Rants and Replies > Christmas (without the Christ) |
| Posted by: Java Dec 12 2004, 01:04 PM |
| So, it's my second Christmas as an atheist, and my first at my own apartment. I was planning on being kinda low-key, not really decorating the place, listening maybe to some various holiday songs, etc. It started with the candles. Then my Uncle sent me ornaments. So now I've got a tree with angels, and lights, and instumental Christmas music blaring, and a cat who thinks chewing on the tree is a good idea. O_o;; I dunno. Most of the things I have, I've kinda dug out the sociocultural meanings instead of religious ones. Like the candles. I was told a tavern put a lit candle in each window of an open room, so it's a symbol of charity, of opening your house to those less fortunate. I've done this before - I've opened my house to my friends, and more. Once, when one of my coworkers I didn't know so well got totally shitfaced at a company party with no one else to help her, I drove her car and her to my house and gave her my bed while I slept on the floor. So, the candles really have a meaning to me. And the songs, I sing along to them all. Especially "God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen" which is the most blatantly religious of them all, I might think. And unlike when I used to sing in chorus, I don't mind the Christ and Satan and soul-saving. It's like singing about Zeus, and Robin Goodfellow. And when I have kids, I want to tell them about Santa, and Rudolph, and the myth of Jesus. Mostly Santa though. Is this all somehow wrong? I mean, is it wrong to take the culture of Christmas without the religion? It's true like the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. We know they don't exist, but we tell our children and it's a pretty dream, and one day they find out and they perpetuate the meme to their children. In The Hogfather, Death tells his granddaughter that we grow up believing the little lies like Santa and the Tooth Fairy to get us ready to believe the "big lies" like Truth and Justice and Fairness. Are they lies or ideals? Bleh. I have to give my cat a drop of eggnog. Please tell me if I'm off me rocker or what. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 12 2004, 01:19 PM | ||
Yes |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 12 2004, 01:42 PM | ||||
Maybe, just a little bit...  Seriously, "it's your Christmas and you can have it anyway you want it." Just like a hamburger... Or you can ignore it altogether... well, sort of. Life is meant to be enjoyed. Make it what you want and be at peace about it.
Like Chef said, yes, to both. |
| Posted by: Valgeir Dec 12 2004, 02:51 PM |
| It's a Christian vulgarisation of pagan traditions anyway. It's all good. I'll be putting up lights with my dad and decorating the tree too. |
| Posted by: Zoe Grace Dec 12 2004, 06:03 PM | ||
No. First of all, Christmas isn't even original. It was originally a pagan holiday or actually several diff pagan holidays depending on the area you were in. This isn't the first dying/rising savior godmyth to celebrate on this day. Christmas trees and electric lights have NOTHING to do with Jesus, period. Christmas has become largely secular and commercialized now also (i.e. santa claus) My atheist best friend celebrates Yule with me every year, because the only thing you have to believe in for yule is the existance of that big bright shiny ball in the sky called the sun. |
| Posted by: Fweethawt Dec 12 2004, 07:59 PM | ||
I thought this comment was pretty funny since I can relate somewhat.  We already have a bunch of wrapped presents under our tree. These are gifts for people outside of our home. The cat won't leave them alone! He likes to climb over them until he gets to the base of the tree, then he pushes some of them around until they're no longer under the tree. It's funny to watch him do this. He uses his head like a little bulldozer. As far as your post goes, you're not any crazier then the rest of us. It just sounds like you still have a few residual habits from an earlier time.  If you make it through the holidays as peaceful as possible, you've celebrated them correctly.  (don't forget to get your kitty a present! ) |
| Posted by: Astreja Dec 12 2004, 09:35 PM |
| As far as I'm concerned, Christmas is a pagan celebration that got hijacked by the Xians. And I make a special effort to celebrate it in a non-Xian way. On the Friday closest to the winter solstice, I bring home-baked cookies to work. Lots of them, enough for all the clerical and administrative staff (25+ people) and anyone else who happens to wander by. At my place, Yule (12/21 this year) is the big celebration. We invite as many friends as will reasonably fit in the house, and treat them to a huge buffet. On Christmas Eve in the early afternoon, we go to the mall for the Rite of the Sacred Cappuccino: We stake out a table at a coffee bar and order a round, then watch last-minute shoppers go rushing by. Then we go to my parents' home for the evening, eat another nice meal, listen to the NORAD Santa-Tracking report and perhaps watch a movie. No Xian content there, either. After that, 12/25 is positively anti-climactic... Essentially a mini-Yule for immediate household only. None of our decorations are on a Xian theme. We have lights, an evergreen wreath, but no Nativity scene. No carols, either. And we have cats, too. One of whom likes to *eat* Christmas lights. (I think he enjoys the little electric jolt when the light breaks... Weird little guy.) So we built a two-dimensional tree that hangs off the living room door. And, when we sit down to eat holiday dinner, the katzen get a big plateful of tuna in another room. Mind you, I do miss my old tree. Had a Buddha statue meditating underneath, and a Beanie Baby bat occupying the "angel" spot at the top. I vaguely remember having a blue woolen octopus "angel," too. Astreja |
| Posted by: Fyrefly Dec 13 2004, 12:13 AM | ||
I don't see how it could be construed as wrong. Even while I was a Christian, I never saw it that way - my family, excluding myself, only got that way when my brother and I started at the Christian school here in town. And like others have said, it started out as a Pagan tradition - Christians just poached it for their own uses, just as they did with Easter. I always get extremely annoyed when people say to consider the true meaning of Christmas, because I know that they're deluding themselves and there's shit all I can do to make them see that. Like for instance, there was this poll on http://www.ninemsn.com.au over the weekend: 'Are commercial interests overtaking the true spirit of Christmas?' Out of the 38,384 people who voted, only 3,323 people said 'No'. NINE PERCENT. It's a disgrace. I know that Australia is a predominantly Christian nation (I think it's 26% Catholic, 24% Anglican, but I could be wrong), but I say it again - they're deluding themselves. And I wish that there was some way of making them see that they're wrong. |
| Posted by: Pseudonym Dec 13 2004, 01:11 AM |
| Hhmmm, on the issue of "Santa Claus", I always wonder who its more fun for; the kids who go through their childhood wondering whether their parents are lying to them or not, or the adults who seem to feel that a pretty lie adds some measure of magic and ambience to a child's life. I say, tell the truth; I think you'll find most kids don;t really care so long as they get their pressies on Christmas morning. As for all the hymns, decorations, christmas carols etc; who cares one way or the other? just because you describe yourself as atheist doesn't mean you can't appreciate the aesthetic or symbolic beauty of things with a religious bent. I for example absolutely adore Norman-style churches; the architecture is just fabulous on some of the older ones. Doesn't mean that I still don't find what they stand for reprehensible. |
| Posted by: notblindedbytheblight Dec 13 2004, 08:48 AM |
| I always go all out. One year I won 2nd place in the neighborhood for best decorated house. I also have people taking pictures of my halloween decorations. I just love to decorate. I don't believe in halloween any more than christmas, but decorating is just a blast! It's putting it up that I hate... |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 13 2004, 01:30 PM |
| I celebrated Christmas ever since <s>small kid time</s> I was little, with my Buddhist mother and my nominally Xian dad, and I did not convert until I was a teenager. My first few Christmases as a believer were awkward, as there was a pressure to have the celebration be more religious or spiritual. Those early Xmases were more fun because I could focus on the PRESENTS and all the fun trappings of Xmas, like Xmas specials on tv, and music, and decorations, and good food. I sort of lost the Xmas spirit after a while and haven't done much more than scurry to buy presents for people the last few years. This Xmas is going to be low key, and possibly celebrated late due to travel plans and things. But I want to hold a big, spectacular Solstice bash next winter.  |
| Posted by: Lokmer Dec 13 2004, 04:13 PM | ||
Very well stated. For me, I hope to be back to that point some time - hopefully next year. However, it's only been a year since my apostasy, and the wounds are still to fresh - my favorite Xmas music puts me in tears and tempts me back, even though to go back I would have to lie. I do love the aesthetics of some of the better Xmas music, and the feeling of specialness to the season. But this year, it ain't happening. Hopefully, next year there will be enough distance. -Lokmer |
| Posted by: Diogenes Dec 13 2004, 04:02 PM |
| Lokmer, for some reason, you seem to always say the things I'm thinking, but can't say quite so eloquently. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 13 2004, 04:26 PM |
Absolutely nothing Christmas will appear in this house this year. I spent Christmas 1971 as sargent of the guard on Fort Ord with nothing of Christmas.  That was the worst Christmas ever. Now I'm looking forward to nothing of Christmas. |
| Posted by: Amethyst_Moonstar Dec 14 2004, 04:46 AM |
| I agree, Christmas is a Pagan holiday that was taken over. I don't think it's wrong to celebrate. I will probably continue to go to church with my family, mostly because I like the music. Although I have to take allergy stuff with me because the incense drives my allergies up the wall. Blech. For those who say that the true meaning of Christmas is about Jesus, you could always remind them that it's also about hope, love and peace (something this world needs more of, imho.) |
| Posted by: MonkeyBoy Dec 14 2004, 06:15 AM | ||
I know what you mean. Since I was a kid, I would sing (to myself, since my singing has been described as "hitting a colicky baby with a sack of kittens") 'God rest Ye merry gentlemen' every xmas eve; but the one that says "For Jesus Christ our Savour was born on Christmans Day". Then, 1 minute after midnight, I would sing the other version that says, "For Jesus Christ our Savour was born upon this day". OCD, anyone? Still, I love the season and the materialism and the FOOD (god, I love the food) and the snow. I still sled, although in a few years I may need to have hip replaced. Enjoy the holidays, enjoy EVERYTHING for that matter. Screw the fundies attempt to STEAL traditions and call it theirs, claiming they have christian roots. Lyin' bastards. Happy holidays/Yule/Soltice/christmas/xmas!! Mr T |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Dec 14 2004, 10:34 AM |
| http://www.chrismahanukwanzakah.com/ |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 14 2004, 12:18 PM | ||
I'm going to be chuckling at that mental image for weeks now.   |
| Posted by: fortunehooks Dec 14 2004, 02:49 PM |
| fuck it, i am doing something, might have to do it alone for the most part. which means baby heyzeus is coming nowhere near me or my mind. if you want to enjoy the holidays do it,just along as you realize how you came about doing it. |
| Posted by: fuct> Dec 14 2004, 04:17 PM |
| I've been having an argument with an agnostic co worker who says its hypocritical to celebrate christmas by putting up a tree and decorating your house. His reasoning is that even if it is a pagan ceremony, its still religious, so if I'm a true atheist it's something I shouldn't participate in. What do you guys think, am I a hypocrite? |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 14 2004, 04:28 PM | ||
You're celebrating the shortest day of the year, the day when we are closest to the sun, and the day marking the beginning of the return of the sun. That is science, not religion. No hypocrisy. Just decorate the tree with star trek collectible ornaments instead of angels. |
| Posted by: MrSpooky Dec 14 2004, 04:36 PM |
| Your coworker is an idiot. Atheism is a position stemming from epistemology and metaphysics, not about aesthetics. All you really do on Christmas as an atheist is to enjoy the literary and aesthetic traditions of your culture, spend time with family, and find an excuse to renew your love for each other. Besides, Chrismahanukwanzakah is for everyone! http://roadtrip.typepad.com/ca2fl/files/virgin_mobilesnowflakes.mov |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 14 2004, 07:41 PM | ||
Sometimes a tree is just a fucking tree. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 14 2004, 07:45 PM | ||
Some times a tree is just a guldang big air-freshener. |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 14 2004, 08:06 PM | ||
And sometimes a tree is your kitty's scratching post and dangly toy holder.  |
| Posted by: spamandham Dec 14 2004, 09:18 PM | ||
A foolish consistency if the hobgoblin of a small mind. Be a hypocrite on the right occasions and have some fun! |
| Posted by: Merlinfmct87 Dec 14 2004, 11:11 PM | ||||||||
Sounds cool to me kitten .
 Merlin(With a tree) |
| Posted by: Pseudonym Dec 15 2004, 02:35 AM |
| The problem here is a misconception those who adhere to any particular "faith" commonly employ against "atheists", and that is that "atheism" itself negates the very possibility of any spiritual or metaphysical element in your existence. Which is nonsense; I'm a spiritual atheist; I entertain the possibility that there may be some merit in the notion of some form opf continuation after "death", and that there may be realms, entities, plains of existence or whatever that MIGHT exist beyond the parameters of our sensory limitations. I don;t believe in them, or even think it likely; I merely entertain the possibility. Atheism simply means that you don't conform or buy into a pre-established schema of spiritual dictates, that impose upon the adherent particular, unasailable notions of spirituality which cannot be challenged or gainsaid. So go ahead and put up your Christmas tree; as I said earlier, you can appreciate the aesthetic appeal without buying into the symbolism. Besides which, on the idea of the Christmas tree in general, I think you'll find it's the damn Christians who are hypocrites in this particular case, since the tree, like the entire bloody holiday, is STOLEN and perverted from the ancient pagan ceremony of the rebirth of the everlasting sun; a ceremony stolen from those very cultures Christianity as a theology has gone all out to ridicule and eradicate. Hypocrites. |
| Posted by: et64142 Dec 15 2004, 05:20 AM |
| When I went to Hawaii, I built an altar out of lava rocks to Pele. That doesn't mean I believe in Pele; I just wanted to be a part of ancient Hawaii,appreciate the beliefs and culture, and pay my respects. I love christmas. I'm singing "What Child is This" and "O Holy Night" at the top of my lungs to the radio in my car (I hope I don't sound like MonkeyBoy ). I don't believe in "christ" anymore than I do Pele, but I can appreciate the more aesthetic parts of christianity (beautiful ancient cathedrals, songs, art, etc.). Whether we like it or not, this has been a huge part of our socialism and culture for 2,000 years. The difference is that now I just appreciate Christmas for the things I like, and I don't have to feel guilty about whether or not I'm pleasing biblegod by making the holiday about him and not about just having fun, eating good food, putting up lights, giving gifts, receiving gifts, etc. etc. Xmas is much more fun when you're free. |
| Posted by: MonkeyBoy Dec 15 2004, 06:00 AM |
| A Xian tried to tell me that I was hypocrite if I celebrated Xmas; aside from the incredible inaccuracy of his assertion that Xmas was in any way a Christian holiday, he is still a fuckwit. I celebrate my birthday and I am not a Satanist or Wiccian. I celebrate Halloween with as much fervor as Xmas and Thanksgiving. I love to celebrate things! My son has a makeshift Budda area, and he meditates almost daily, has a few statues of the Budda and a small rock garden. I have raked sand, read about the Budda and reflected on the Path of Enlightenment; we are not Buddists. We extract the good things out of some beliefs and if they prove to be benefitial and/or "fun", we adopt them into our own lives. That agnostic co-worker is bereft of imagination and passion (yeah, I'm judging him across the internet) and he needs derives self importance by pointing out the made up flaws of others. Fuck him and ass he rode in on. T |
| Posted by: spamandham Dec 17 2004, 10:24 PM | ||
My standard response to accusations of hypocrisy is "...and your point is?". |
| Posted by: fuct> Dec 17 2004, 11:38 PM |
| |
| Posted by: Java Dec 18 2004, 09:49 AM | ||
Oh my random fluctuations in the space-time universe. You have perfectly described my mindset to a lot of things. *snuggles* |
| Posted by: .:webmaster:. Dec 18 2004, 10:46 AM |
| We have 5 trees in our home, decorated in a variety of themes, and a couple dozen nutcrakers on display. One is nearly 4 feet tall. Christmas was a forbidden holiday in some ultra conservative circles in the past. For a time it was even illegal. The pagan roots of the holiday are well known to any history buff. Oh, and my son is the Nutcracker Prince in the area production of the Nutcracker Ballet. http://www.artscenternews.com/gallery/Nutcracker2004/apu to see him in action. I don't say "Merry Christmas," but I do say, "Have a great holiday!" |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 20 2004, 09:16 AM | ||
Same here. I'm too fresh out of Christianity to want any of its dead wood around me, be it audio or visual. Food, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I guess I'm a shameless hypocrite, in that regard. Reach |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 20 2004, 09:17 AM | ||
As I PMd Nivek last night - there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The food STAYS! |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 20 2004, 09:19 AM | ||||
Absolutely!!! All of the food stays! |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 20 2004, 09:21 AM | ||||
Y'all are folk after my own heart. |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 20 2004, 09:23 AM |
| Among we who are heretics, there are no doctrinal discrepanicies, nor concerns about being kosher, when it comes to food choices. Freedom is tasty! |
| Posted by: TexasFreethinker Dec 20 2004, 09:25 AM | ||
The only thing I've stopped eating since becoming an Ex-C are communion wafers.  |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 20 2004, 09:28 AM | ||||
Same here... with one notable exception: I've quit eating a lot of crap, as well. |
| Posted by: ChefRanden Dec 20 2004, 11:19 AM | ||||
Not, me. I make sure I have plenty of those tasty morsels around. |
| Posted by: spamandham Dec 20 2004, 11:30 AM | ||
I've never been Jewish, but I much prefer Kosher hotdog's over the usual nitrate saturated ear and snout sausages. |
| Posted by: sexkitten Dec 20 2004, 11:39 AM | ||||
Eating kosher dogs for personal preference is different from *having* to find kosher butchers or being limited to prepared foods marked with a "K" on the label. |
| Posted by: jaded Dec 20 2004, 01:46 PM | ||
I beg to differ... The holy cookbook of Antioch clearly states that "verily I say unto you, though shalt not eat anything that beareth the mark of low fat, low carb, or diet between thanksgiving and new years." Then it goes on to say something about the fiery pits of the sauna at the local gym and swearing allegiance to the Stair Master. I can't wait for the second coming of desert |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 21 2004, 06:57 AM | ||||
I stand corrected. Thank you, Jaded. Desert=the hot place Dessert=the stuff you eat Here's a hint for you to remember the correct spelling: Dessert has two "s" because we want more than one serving. If you ever get stuck in a desert, you never want it to happen more than once. |
| Posted by: jaded Dec 21 2004, 07:27 AM | ||
Thanks Reach, I was...ah...actually using the OLD English spelling of dessert.... from the KJV... to make the newest crop of christians feel at home... Yeah, that's it. |
| Posted by: Reach Dec 21 2004, 07:33 AM | ||||
Damn, Jaded! So, that's why I have so much trouble keeping those two words straight and have to resort to the aforementioned tricks!Former King James student, Reach |