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| Posted by: sexkitten Oct 20 2004, 12:45 PM |
| Posted by: shinchy Jul 27 2004, 07:20 PM People who have been through the Exodus ministries, Desert Streams, Homosexuals Anonymous, conversion therapy, etc, please share your experiences. I understand the Mormons have a group as well. Here is a link discussing one man's experience: http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/exgay2.htm Posted by: shinchy Jul 27 2004, 11:24 PM I posted this in another discussion but here's most of it: I was in a group known as Homosexuals Anonymous in the early 90's for a year. The group in San Diego broke down and another one came up in its place known as Alternatives. Both groups met in a classroom in my neighborhood's Assembly of God church. HA, as the members called Homosexual Anonymous, was structured similarly to AA with first name only basis, a loosely structed meeting and discussion, and reading of our steps at the beginning. AA has 12 steps, which was not enough for HA. HA had 14 and they all addressed helplessness, the sin of homosexuality, and our need for God to work with this problem in our lives. Alternatives was simply a support group without the steps. Both groups liked to open the meetings with Prayer, of course. I knew of another group at the time known as Spatula, which was a support group for fundementalist parents who weren't happy with their children being gay and stuggled to love them unconditionally while not accepting their gayness. I went to a couple of those meeting and it felt like a P-Flag meeting in a perverse way. I was only involved in HA for a year and Alternatives for another on and off. I was eighteen years old when I found out about HA from a column in a The Good News, a free weekly Christian newspaper. I called the columnist, whom I'll call Brian, left a message asking for information, and he told me about HA, which he was deeply involved with. Brian's columns often confronted both homophobia and condemned homosexuality at the same time, asking the church in general to be supportive to the homosexual struggler. After HA's disbanding, Brian led a small discussion group of men he counseled (not Alternatives). I became friends with many of the people in the group. We often went out for dinner at Denny's or some other late night diner after meetings and there was a phone list where we could call each other. I became very good friends with a guy I'll call Erik. I often carpooled with him to the meetings (which met on Friday nights), and he called me every other weekend. I called him as well and the calls soon became more frequent. I was attracted to him and he was attracted to me. Sexual tension wasn't that unusual at HA meeting but we both cultivated some kind of relationship over a couple of years while dancing around the issue. A year after HA disbanded, Erik and I had sex. It was my first time. I later learned from another former member that hooking up wasn't so unusual. Because I was in the born again Christian context and I more or less broke HA's/Alternatives'/the church's taboos on fornication and having sex with another guy, I felt a guilt about the experience and maintaining a relationship with Erik. Erik lived out of town at the time I had sex with him and the few month following so there was a phone bill that went with the relationship (and sex was a major topic of our discussions). One day, I called Erik and told him I did not want to call him anymore. I cried really hard after I hung up the phone and decided I wanted to get my life right with God. I continued to go to Alternatives for a while but I eventually decided to stop going. --------- After that, I wound up in a cult known as the Assembly and I left that group seven years ago. Coming out, which was coupled with deconversion, was difficult the first two or three years. Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 28 2004, 06:09 AM ex-gay? Conversion therapy? Homo- anonymous? Jeezus fuck. Being gay isn't a disease. It isn't something you need a cure for. WTF is conversion therapy? Where a perfectly normal gay person goes to hear how he or she is a sinner and that what and who they are is wrong? That they will go to hell for being who they are? I find this sort of thing completely disgusting. Sometimes Christians really make me sick. I'm sorry that you had to go thu this and I am happy that you were able to finally come out, now you can be yourself. It must have been awful trying to supress your feelings, keeping everything inside while having the church make you feel like you were a sinner and trying to turn you into something you aren't. Posted by: Tocis Jul 28 2004, 06:50 AM QUOTE (rainyday8169 @ Jul 28 2004, 06:09 AM) WTF is conversion therapy? You don't want to know. Honestly, you don't want to know. It's much too disgusting. But if you choose to ignore my warning, I think a google search for "reparative therapy" (that's the term I know for that bullcrap) should provide you with all the horror you need. Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 28 2004, 07:22 AM I actually saw a documentary on the subject. And Ill repeat........Sometimes Christians really make me sick. How can they justify this? And do they really think that God will be pleased with they way they fucked up one of his "creations”? There are many things that "Christians" do that I have a hard time stomaching and this practice is probably in the top 5. Buncha self righteous, judgmental, intolerant, hypocrites. Just thinking about this makes so mad I could spit Sometimes I wish that there was a god just so I could see the look on the Christian's faces when they arrive in hell. Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 08:21 AM QUOTE (rainyday8169 @ Jul 28 2004, 06:09 AM) ex-gay? Conversion therapy? Homo- anonymous? Jeezus fuck. Being gay isn't a disease. It isn't something you need a cure for. WTF is conversion therapy? Where a perfectly normal gay person goes to hear how he or she is a sinner and that what and who they are is wrong? That they will go to hell for being who they are? I find this sort of thing completely disgusting. Sometimes Christians really make me sick. I'm sorry that you had to go thu this and I am happy that you were able to finally come out, now you can be yourself. It must have been awful trying to supress your feelings, keeping everything inside while having the church make you feel like you were a sinner and trying to turn you into something you aren't. Conversion therapy, or reperative therapy, is it's known, is where someone sees a pyschologist or psychologist willing to help them change their sexual orientation. Since the American Psychiatry Association has had homosexuality off the list of mental illnesses since the early 1970's, most psychologists and psychiatrists will not "treat" homosexuality. The ones who are willing to do this are usually religiously conservative in orientation and believe these poor souls need their services. Dr. Joseph Nicolosi is one such example and he has been shown in prime time documentaries from time to time. Of course, this type of thing typically does not go one without one's consent - with the adults, they are often pressured by the whatever opressive belief system to consent. I've heard of parents forcing their teenagers who show signs of homosexuality to see one of these quacks. Thankfully, conversion therapy isn't something I had to deal with. Posted by: Muggy Knubber Jul 28 2004, 08:42 AM I think it is very sad that these groups are taking advantage of confused gay men by telling them that there is something wrong with them. The only thing that IS wrong with them is that they are trusting a church group for advice. I wonder if there is a high suicide rate in those groups. Posted by: I Broke Free Jul 28 2004, 08:57 AM I'm thankful that gay kids today have some exposer to gay men and women who lead happy, coupled, productive lives. For those of us over 35 or 40 it was quite different. I have many gay friends who have been married in the past. Some have kids and some do not, but all of them have to some extent raked an innocent party through the coals because of the fear instilled by Christian theology. One of the constant refrains I hear on Christian forums is "I wish they (gay people) would all go back in the closet!" That closet is full of innocent heterosexual spouses and children too! Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 28 2004, 10:02 AM My mother married a man in 1968 that the Catholic Church they both attended at the time, had told getting married would cure his gender confusion. I was born in 1969 and my brother in 1970. In 1971 our father left us to have a sex change and become an author of fantasy fiction and a lesbian. My mother was devastated and decided the church was to blame and that’s when we started searching for a new religion. She finally settled on some wacky version of Buddhism. I was too young to remember my father but I do remember growing with a mom that was never home because she worked two jobs I believe that if the Catholic Church hadn’t convinced this guy that marriage would cure him, a lot of pain and heartache could have been avoided. I rarely tell people about my family, mostly because it sounds so outlandish that I am afraid people won’t believe it. If ya want you can check out my “dad” her name is Jessica Amanda Salmonson. There are tons of websites. Back when I was born her name was Walter Amos. And get this………..(I swear I could never make up stuff this weird) He was raised by his sword swallowing grandmother and fire eating grandfather in the traveling circus. I stopped researching that side of my family because not only does it just get weirder and weirder I think it’s horrible that anyone has children and never once try to see if they are ok, or if they are even alive. You make a very good point IBF, while they are busy judging and “curing” people of being gay , they give no thought as to the damage they can do to the lives of the unsuspecting wife and future children. Posted by: Muggy Knubber Jul 28 2004, 10:06 AM QUOTE (I BROKE FREE @ Jul 28 2004, 08:57 AM) I'm thankful that gay kids today have some exposer to gay men and women who lead happy, coupled, productive lives. For those of us over 35 or 40 it was quite different. I have many gay friends who have been married in the past. Some have kids and some do not, but all of them have to some extent raked an innocent party through the coals because of the fear instilled by Christian theology. One of the constant refrains I hear on Christian forums is "I wish they (gay people) would all go back in the closet!" That closet is full of innocent heterosexual spouses and children too! My best friend as a child is gay and because of my homophobic religious upbringing, I wasn't there for him when he came out. He has never spoken to me about the subject (he had the same religious upbringing as me). I guess it was just be weird for him so we ended up avoiding each other as teenagers. We've long since lost contact and I still feel horrible about it. I know for a fact that homosexuality was not a choice for him. Why would he choose to get alienated by his mega-religious family and by some of his childhood friends? He may very well require the services of a support group after the things he has been through, but he doesn't need one to try to make him stop being gay. Posted by: I Broke Free Jul 28 2004, 10:29 AM QUOTE (rainyday8169 @ Jul 28 2004, 02:02 PM) My mother married a man in 1968 that the Catholic Church they both attended at the time, had told getting married would cure his gender confusion. I was born in 1969 and my brother in 1970. In 1971 our father left us to have a sex change and become an author of fantasy fiction and a lesbian. My mother was devastated and decided the church was to blame and that’s when we started searching for a new religion. She finally settled on some wacky version of Buddhism. I was too young to remember my father but I do remember growing with a mom that was never home because she worked two jobs I believe that if the Catholic Church hadn’t convinced this guy that marriage would cure him, a lot of pain and heartache could have been avoided. I rarely tell people about my family, mostly because it sounds so outlandish that I am afraid people won’t believe it. If ya want you can check out my “dad” her name is Jessica Amanda Salmonson. There are tons of websites. Back when I was born her name was Walter Amos. And get this………..(I swear I could never make up stuff this weird) He was raised by his sword swallowing grandmother and fire eating grandfather in the traveling circus. I stopped researching that side of my family because not only does it just get weirder and weirder I think it’s horrible that anyone has children and never once try to see if they are ok, or if they are even alive. You make a very good point IBF, while they are busy judging and “curing” people of being gay , they give no thought as to the damage they can do to the lives of the unsuspecting wife and future children. Rainy I do believe you. I'm sorry for the pain your family had to endure, but having a family history like yours to fall back on when conversations get dull must be some compensation. Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 10:45 AM QUOTE (Muggy Knubber @ Jul 28 2004, 08:42 AM) I think it is very sad that these groups are taking advantage of confused gay men by telling them that there is something wrong with them. The only thing that IS wrong with them is that they are trusting a church group for advice. I wonder if there is a high suicide rate in those groups. I don't know how many people in those groups commit suicide but when I was in Homosexuals Anonymous, one person from my group committed suicide by jumping off the Coronado Bridge. Somehow the news got to all of us that his body was found in the San Diego bay. He was emotionally needy (which many of us were) coupled with his attempts to suppress being gay. It's something that haunts my thoughts from time to time when I think about HA. Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 11:04 AM QUOTE (I BROKE FREE @ Jul 28 2004, 08:57 AM) I'm thankful that gay kids today have some exposer to gay men and women who lead happy, coupled, productive lives. For those of us over 35 or 40 it was quite different. I have many gay friends who have been married in the past. Some have kids and some do not, but all of them have to some extent raked an innocent party through the coals because of the fear instilled by Christian theology. One of the constant refrains I hear on Christian forums is "I wish they (gay people) would all go back in the closet!" That closet is full of innocent heterosexual spouses and children too! There were a couple of married people in those ex-gay groups as well. One person was married before he got into the group. Most of the time, if someone in the group started dating somone of the opposite sex (and eventually got married), it was seen as a succcess story. I think the founders of Exodus had wives (before they got to the point where they left the ministry they founded and married each other). Andrew Comiskey, founder of Desert Streams, also married. Marriage seemed to be highly encouraged but I always wondered how fair it was to the spouses. The ex-gay ministry seems to be a convenient way for the church to put people back in the closet. Interestingly, I think a lot of those people were probably in the closet at their church about their involvment in groups like HA. Posted by: Ender Jul 28 2004, 01:41 PM QUOTE (shinchy @ Jul 27 2004, 07:20 PM) People who have been through the Exodus ministries, Desert Streams, Homosexuals Anonymous, conversion therapy, etc, please share your experiences. I understand the Mormons have a group as well. I'm still in reparative therapy if you want to call it that. I have been for just over 2 years now. I went through about half of Living Waters (Desert Stream) but my work schedule kept me from attending the second half of the program. My falling out from Christianity happened at about the same time as I was forced to quit. I do believe homosexuality is developmental. I will not know however if its changable unless I experience change myself. I'm skeptical, but I identify too much with what others who have 'come out' of homosexuality say to dismiss it. Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 02:06 PM QUOTE (Ender @ Jul 28 2004, 01:41 PM) QUOTE (shinchy @ Jul 27 2004, 07:20 PM) People who have been through the Exodus ministries, Desert Streams, Homosexuals Anonymous, conversion therapy, etc, please share your experiences. I understand the Mormons have a group as well. I'm still in reparative therapy if you want to call it that. I have been for just over 2 years now. I went through about half of Living Waters (Desert Stream) but my work schedule kept me from attending the second half of the program. My falling out from Christianity happened at about the same time as I was forced to quit. I do believe homosexuality is developmental. I will not know however if its changable unless I experience change myself. I'm skeptical, but I identify too much with what others who have 'come out' of homosexuality say to dismiss it. Ender, your perspective is very interesting and I'd like to hear more of it. I've always wondered what Desert Streams was like. I've read Comiskey's book before but that was a long time ago. I won't bite. Posted by: Ender Jul 28 2004, 03:57 PM QUOTE (shinchy @ Jul 28 2004, 02:06 PM) Ender, your perspective is very interesting and I'd like to hear more of it. I've always wondered what Desert Streams was like. I've read Comiskey's book before but that was a long time ago. So that I don't go on with some long winded testimony, what would you like to hear exactly? Posted by: Geftakys Jul 28 2004, 06:07 PM Hey Shin it is me David Mauldin, I just read something in the paper today about Exodus Ministries. It seams that the two guys who started in in the 70's decided that they were in love with each other and left fundamentalism! What a kick! Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 08:27 PM QUOTE (Ender @ Jul 28 2004, 03:57 PM) QUOTE (shinchy @ Jul 28 2004, 02:06 PM) Ender, your perspective is very interesting and I'd like to hear more of it. I've always wondered what Desert Streams was like. I've read Comiskey's book before but that was a long time ago. So that I don't go on with some long winded testimony, what would you like to hear exactly? I would like to hear more about where you are now with being in reparative therapy - or at least your beliefs on homosexuality being developmental - or even what can be gained from changing your orientation. I'm so used to the religious perspective on why it should be done. A different perspective would be interesting. Just something brief. You can always say more later if you feel like it. Posted by: shinchy Jul 28 2004, 08:44 PM QUOTE (Geftakys @ Jul 28 2004, 06:07 PM) Hey Shin it is me David Mauldin, I just read something in the paper today about Exodus Ministries. It seams that the two guys who started in in the 70's decided that they were in love with each other and left fundamentalism! What a kick! Hi David, Yes, it's true. They hooked up and actually came out at one of Exodus's conferences (their last one). They said the people who came to heckle them during their lecture turned out to be the ones to cheer them on as they gave a message the conference goers were not prepared to hear. They talk about this in the documentary _One Nation Under God_. The film also interviewed people in gay ministries and people who were no longer involved. One of the more unusual cases was Sy Rogers, a former candidate for a sex change operation, who was a major apologist for the ex-gay ministries and a right winger. The use of hormones in his "previous" life showed in his feminine voice and androgynous appearance. The oddest thing was how one ministry thought they could straighten men through sports (while there are plenty of sports loving gay men) and make over lesbian's sexual orientation by teaching them how to wear make-up and dress feminine (for the longest time there have been lipstick lesbians). Posted by: Ender Jul 28 2004, 11:22 PM Hey Shinchy, QUOTE I would like to hear more about where you are now with being in reparative therapy I continue to read as much as I can about the developmental theories of homosexuality, and I apply what I think is valid to my own life. I'm not part of any support group and dont plan to be. I see a councillor about every 3 months. In terms of where I am in the 'process' is difficult to answer. I have experienced some real emotional healing in my life. But I also have some bad habits that I think are a hinderance to me. Those will be worked out in time. I could go into more detail but this is a public forum. QUOTE or at least your beliefs on homosexuality being developmental In a nut shell, I believe homosexuality is an attempt at finding masculinity (gay) or feminity (lesbian) in another person. To basically make up for what you dont perceive yourself as having. What causes this is probably a combination of a number of factors. Biological predisposition, defensive detachment from same-sex parent or substitute, sexual abuse, peer rejection, or a dominant opposite sex parent. I'm sure I'm missing a few there. *gets ready for his stoning* QUOTE or even what can be gained from changing your orientation Personal wholeness. Not fearing other men. Having my own sense of masculinity and not trying to find it in the arms of another man. Perhaps one day a wife, and kids. Posted by: shinchy Jul 29 2004, 12:04 AM Ender, thanks for sharing. I respect your views and you know where I stand on it. No stoning, no judgment. I remember a lot of the people in Homosexuals Anonymous and the Alternatives group I was in were intensely emotional and were looking for that emotional healing. However, both groups struck me as so gay even if they weren't acting on it. Guys brought their queeniness with them. Guys brought their butchness with them. And the women brought their dykiness with them. No fault in it; people are who they are. Posted by: I Broke Free Jul 29 2004, 05:22 AM QUOTE (Ender @ Jul 29 2004, 03:22 AM) In a nut shell, I believe homosexuality is an attempt at finding masculinity (gay) or feminity (lesbian) in another person. To basically make up for what you dont perceive yourself as having. What causes this is probably a combination of a number of factors. Biological predisposition, defensive detachment from same-sex parent or substitute, sexual abuse, peer rejection, or a dominant opposite sex parent. I'm sure I'm missing a few there. *gets ready for his stoning* Ender: Please don't worry, no stones will be thrown by me. I appreciate your candor and desire to here more. (No need to get too personal, just your thoughts) I too recognize that human sexuality is very complex and I have not shut my mind off to any information that may change my opinions. My older sister is a lesbian and my identical twin brother is heterosexual, so I have all kinds of theories regarding the development of a homosexual orientation. I have also read several books regarding the ex-gay movement and would like your insight. QUESTION You made reference above to a number of factors that may contribute to a homosexual orientation. All of these factors were explored by my therapist when I was 18 and was struggling with my homosexual feelings. He seemed agitated that I would not embrace any of these possibilities for myself. Do the ex-gay ministries insist that their members adopt this philosophy before success is possible? Posted by: Ender Jul 29 2004, 06:35 AM QUOTE Ender: Please don't worry, no stones will be thrown by me. Thanks IBF! QUOTE Do the ex-gay ministries insist that their members adopt this philosophy before success is possible? I don't know of a ministry or reparative therapy program that isn't based on the developmental theory. So I would imagine that those who don't believe that childhood factors led to their same-sex attraction would be troublesome to their therapist or group leader. Whether or not its 'insisted' upon I guess would just depend. Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 29 2004, 09:02 AM QUOTE In a nut shell, I believe homosexuality is an attempt at finding masculinity (gay) or feminity (lesbian) in another person. To basically make up for what you dont perceive yourself as having. What causes this is probably a combination of a number of factors. Biological predisposition, defensive detachment from same-sex parent or substitute, sexual abuse, peer rejection, or a dominant opposite sex parent. I'm sure I'm missing a few there. *gets ready for his stoning* *throws stones* I'm kidding I would never do that , everyone has a right to their opinion and to chose the path they think is best for them. I may disagree some of what you you say in general but if you feel that this is right for you then who am I to "throw stones" I wish you all the best that this world has to offer. Posted by: Ender Jul 29 2004, 09:56 AM Dammit! Well if you guys aren't going to stone me could you at least chase me with some torches and pitchforks? Posted by: Muggy Knubber Jul 29 2004, 10:03 AM Pitchfork? Here ya go! Posted by: shinchy Jul 29 2004, 01:56 PM Here's a link: http://www.exgaynoway.org/ Posted by: I Broke Free Jul 29 2004, 01:57 PM QUOTE In a nut shell, I believe homosexuality is an attempt at finding masculinity (gay) or feminity (lesbian) in another person. To basically make up for what you dont perceive yourself as having. What causes this is probably a combination of a number of factors. Biological predisposition, defensive detachment from same-sex parent or substitute, sexual abuse, peer rejection, or a dominant opposite sex parent. I'm sure I'm missing a few there. *gets ready for his stoning* QUOTE Dammit! Well if you guys aren't going to stone me could you at least chase me with some torches and pitchforks? Sorry, but my pitchforks and torches are in short supply. I keep them handy for far more threatening prey. Ender, you have brought up your beliefs regarding homosexuality, so even though I promise not to throw any stones, I do feel the need to respond. To keep this simple for me I am only going to deal with homosexual males. Every piece of literature I have read regarding reparative therapy for homosexuals always includes a piece dealing with how homosexual are created. They typically list all of the theories you listed above. 1) Distant father 2) Aggressive mother 3) Sexual abuse 4) Same sex peer rejection and a few others. While I don’t discount this as a possibility for ‘creating’ a homosexual, I often wonder if these conditions are a result of having a gay child rather than the condition that create a gay child? I think my partner would be typical in this regard. His father has always expressed (non-verbally) that he is disappointed with my partner. As a child my partner was never interested in sports or hunting or anything that his father wanted to do. Though there was never any sexual or verbal abuse, the relationship was always strained. My partner came from a working class family, but he excelled in school and eventually got a scholarship to Stanford and graduated with honors. None of my partner’s accomplishments meant anything to his father. Today my partner’s father has a live-in grandson (by his daughter) who just barely graduated from high school, but received a baseball scholarship to a nearby college. He cannot stop talking about it. You would think the kid was Einstein the way he brags about him. It hurts my partner terribly to know that his father is capable of such devotion but never gave it to him. There is also the issue of the ‘statistical sample’ that reparative therapy groups use. Where do they get their data? If they are getting their data only from homosexuals who want to change their sexual orientation, then this would hardly represent a good sample. It would for example exclude me and all of my friends, none of which have ever sought to change their orientation. I was at a BBQ last week to celebrate the 46th birthday of a gay friend of mine. Who was there? His partner of 19 years, three gay couples and his PARENTS, who live close by. The birthday boy and his father had just finished building a deck together on the house. They have always been close and enjoy working on projects together all the time. As for me, my father (died two years ago) were always close too; my father took me everywhere as a kid. We hunted and fished together, (I only did target practice, I could never kill anything, and my father did not care) he was never in the least bit abusive; he was a model dad in every respect. When I came out as gay, he gave me a big hug and told me he loved me and went to the trouble to read up on it. He has been there for me at every turn of my life and adored my partner. He helped us buy our first home and was thrilled he could be a part of our lives. I guess what I am trying to say is that people like my friend and I are just not included in the statistics people use to claim they understand how homosexuals are created. I just think these groups do a great disservice to claim they understand how homosexuals are created when they exclude such a huge portion of the gay community. Ender, I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts on this issue. If you are truly unhappy with your orientation than I wish you all the best at creating a life that you are happy with. There may be some truth to what you have said, I honestly don’t know. But it was important for me to let you know that there a many gay men and women out there who would not change their orientation even if it was as easy as taking a pill. Posted by: Ender Jul 30 2004, 12:21 AM Thanks IBF, my real name is Greg. I have many thoughts and feelings regarding this issue. I don't think I could ever adequately put them all into words. Its a subject that has pre-occupied my mind relentlessly for the last 2 years, and my view continues to evolve and change as I grow in my understanding. I don't view this process as an attempt to change my orientation. I tend to view it as an attempt at reaching a sense of personal wholeness. Of understanding my past, why I feel the way I do, and why I behave the way I do. If in the end real, natural heterosexual feelings develop then so be it. This is also an internal journey, and a personal one. While groups such as Exodus have in the past offered me some insights, I do not associate myself with them or any other ex gay organization. I have heard the arguments of both sides, but I find myself in the belief that at least in my case homosexuality is developmental. But I could be wrong. While things like my relationship with my father, biological predisposition, peer rejection etc may provide clues into my same-sex attraction, or a model to work from...I don't believe psychology could even begin to touch the complicated maze of emotions that lead to same-sex attraction. Assuming its developmental. Looking back over my life there are things that make me suspicious of the idea that I was born gay. The kind of fantasies I had as a child and as a teenager, and a deep rooted fear of men are the two most prevalent. From the time I was 17 until about the age of 23 I was happy with being gay. I embraced it completely. I couldn't wait to leave my rural hometown and move to the big city so I could revel in all that the gay community had to offer. But eventually a growing sense that something wasn't quite right began to set in. I wasn't sure what that something was, but I suspected it had to do with my orientation. I came across a few books written by 'former homosexuals'. I connected so much with what they talked about, the more I read the more convinced I became that perhaps there was more to my attractions and desires then what I had thought. In a way its like being in the closet all over again. Most of my friends are gay, and very politically correct ones at that. They don't know what my real thoughts are. I'm thankful that you all have been open to me. I appreciate that. I was hoping to get at least a few stones thrown at me...but I'll leave my S&M theories for another thread I'm tired now and I'm going to bed. I'll be heading out of town for the weekend but would love to discuss this more, and to address some of the things in your post IBF. TTYL! Posted by: I Broke Free Jul 30 2004, 06:41 AM Hi Greg: Thank you again for sharing your thoughts. I know one's sexuality can be very personal and difficult to discuss in a public forum like this one. I hope that you will stay around here long enough and be brave enough to keep us posted as to your progress. It was not until I was 30 that I was able to take complete control over how I felt about myself. It is obvious from my previous post how I feel about Christian based programs dealing with homosexuality. But I do recognize that not everyone is comfortable labeling themselves gay. Good luck with your personal quest. I wish you only happiness. IBF (Dennis) Posted by: shinchy Jul 30 2004, 08:42 AM Thanks Greg. So now that you shared... *friendly jab with a pitchfork* Sorry, couldn't resist. I definitely enjoyed your posts and wouldn't mind seeing more in the future. Shinchy (Shin) Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 30 2004, 09:04 AM QUOTE Every piece of literature I have read regarding reparative therapy for homosexuals always includes a piece dealing with how homosexual are created. They typically list all of the theories you listed above. 1) Distant father 2) Aggressive mother 3) Sexual abuse 4) Same sex peer rejection and a few others. While I don’t discount this as a possibility for ‘creating’ a homosexual, I often wonder if these conditions are a result of having a gay child rather than the condition that create a gay child? these are my thought exactly. While I do hope that Greg can come to grips with whatever orientation he is I disagree with the theory that homosexuals are created. I am not gay but many of my family members and friends are and this has been a topic of discussion many times. I suppose whether or not homosexuality is created or doesn't really matter, what matters to me is that if someone is gay for whatever reason that is, they be allowed to be what they are without feeling shame or guilt because of it and these deprogramming groups make me sick. The techniques they use, in my opinion, are bad, wrong, evil even. Being shamed and being made to believe you have done a bad thing and need to be "cured" etc. is never a good thing. Posted by: Yaoi Huntress Earth Jul 30 2004, 08:13 PM QUOTE (Muggy Knubber @ Jul 28 2004, 10:06 AM) [QUOTE=I BROKE FREE,Jul 28 2004, 08:57 AM]Why would he choose to get alienated by his mega-religious family and by some of his childhood friends? He may very well require the services of a support group after the things he has been through, but he doesn't need one to try to make him stop being gay. The usual answer I get to that question is the choice comes from admitting that you are gay instead of repressing it. I was also told by another fundy that you're only gay if you have gay sex not because of your feelings. Posted by: TruthWarrior Jul 30 2004, 08:50 PM QUOTE (Yaoi Huntress Earth @ Jul 31 2004, 12:13 AM) The usual answer I get to that question is the choice comes from admitting that you are gay instead of repressing it. I was also told by another fundy that you're only gay if you have gay sex not because of your feelings. Probably because that fundy had gay feelings himself? Posted by: shinchy Jul 30 2004, 09:57 PM [QUOTE=Yaoi Huntress Earth,Jul 30 2004, 09:13 PM] [QUOTE=Muggy Knubber,Jul 28 2004, 10:06 AM] [QUOTE=I BROKE FREE,Jul 28 2004, 08:57 AM]Why would he choose to get alienated by his mega-religious family and by some of his childhood friends? He may very well require the services of a support group after the things he has been through, but he doesn't need one to try to make him stop being gay. [/QUOTE] The usual answer I get to that question is the choice comes from admitting that you are gay instead of repressing it. I was also told by another fundy that you're only gay if you have gay sex not because of your feelings. [/QUOTE] I must have skipped a step when I first realized I was gay in my last year in high school. I was a virgin and I had gay feelings for someone and it became clear to me I was gay. When I was in the ex-gay movement, I definitely felt like a liar if someone asked me I was gay and said no, which happened several times. Plus, people always suspected. Posted by: BlueGiant Jul 31 2004, 06:21 AM Greg, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I am pretty sure that these are not the standard knee-jerk ideas, but the result of your research and extensive thought on the matter, I respect your views. Also someone here who put up a polygenic theory on sexual devlopment gets some serious props from me. *puts down the drum he has been beating* I have to say that there is a lot I agree with you about in this regard, though I may disagree with the environmental factors you've named, but that is most likely appropriate for another thread. In any event, I have one beef with your thoughts, mostly since I may act as a counter example for a generalized case. I am considered by most to be a very masculine-acting gay, sort of a "stealth" model (in that I sporadically ping on "gaydar"). And I do not consider my self particularly feminine or effeminate, so I would question that part of your theory. Was it to be taken in the general case, or just for yourself? Either way, the factors, IMO, react early enough and in such a way, that it is tantamount to not having a choice in the direction that development takes. I know I didn't ask for it, and some days, I wonder why I couldn't be like evryone else, just a full-on normal joe, in all senses, just not in my hand, it seems. I am interested in hearing more on your thoughts, and probably wouldn't mind the long-winded testimonial, may give a better place from which to ask questions. And not to disappoint you: *skipps a stone across a lake in your general direction* BlueGiant Posted by: rainyday8169 Jul 31 2004, 09:10 AM QUOTE and some days, I wonder why I couldn't be like evryone else, just a full-on normal joe, in all senses, Just so ya know, I think there are many people that share my thoughts on this (and some of them are even straight hehehe) Really tho, There isnt anything "abnormal" about being Gay. There are certainly abnormal people that happen to be gay but being gay isnt abnormal And LOL@ "gaydar" My brother uses that word alot he's very nelly, a flamer and proud as can be about it, wears a t- shirt that says "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is" likes being called a Faggot, great dancer, hairdresser, owns a business where they sell wine and chocolate, talks with that finger snapping gay accent, his homosexually oozes all over the place, you can't miss it. His boyfriend of 12 years is the total oposite, suit and tie, all business-like, very masculine, quiet, never draws attn to himself, you would never see a hint. They are an adorable odd couple. Posted by: Ender Aug 2 2004, 06:46 PM Well I just got back from my ex-gay weekend retreat. I had such a great time! I learned how to play baseball, basic engine repair, how to recognize 'hot chics' and I was the best in my 'how not to sound like a sissy' class. My nipples are still a bit sore from the electroshock therapy...but thats normal. (just kidding) QUOTE I am interested in hearing more on your thoughts, and probably wouldn't mind the long-winded testimonial, may give a better place from which to ask questions I was raised in an isolated, conservative, rural area of Western Canada. My Dad was in forestry, and my mom stayed home to take care of my sister and I. The only male influence in my life for the better part of my childhood was my Father. My parents had moved out West from Atlantic Canada before my sister and I had been born. I had no older brothers, uncles or grandfathers around. My Dad came from a physically abusive home. My grandfather was an alcholic and used to beat my father, his brothers and sisters and my grandmother. He never received any professional help for the abuse he experienced. Before entering into forestry he had been enlisted in the armed forces. He was a hardworking, disciplined man. Well respected in the community. Even has a small forestry museum named after him. At home though it was not the same. He clearly didn't know how to be a father. Although he was there physically he was emotionally detached from my mom, my sister and I. It didnt seem like he was a part of our family. I have few good memories of my father for about the first 8 years of my life. I only remember his temper and the violent things he did. One particular memory (I was about 5) was the day our puppy bit my sister. When my Dad found out he grabbed our puppy, hoisted him over his head and slammed him down to the floor. Later that night he put the puppy down, probably by shooting him. After that incident he didn't speak to any of us for what seemed about 3 weeks. On another occasion he got into a fight with my Mom (had nothing to do with me and my sister) and vowed he wouldn't have anything to do with any of us again (although he continued living in the house). This went on for about a month. He wouldnt look at me or speak to me. I remember one time throwing myself at this feet in tears because he wouldn't even look at me when he came home from work. As I grew older our relationship did get a little better. My Dad put me in Scouts and he became our troop leader. We had plenty of scouting trips together. We both enjoyed walking and being outdoors so we went on many walks together. He showed up for some of my football games. He did try to be a Dad, he just never really knew how. He was a very broken man himself. No matter what though I was always intimidated by him. I never felt that there was any sort of bond between us. I was nervous around him, and never knew how to relate to him. I carried that same fear onto other men. I felt uncomfortable anytime I had a male doctor. I quit swimming lessons when I got a male instructor. I was nervous about going into the 4th grade because I would have my first male teacher. I still catch myself gravitating towards female cashiers when im at the grocery store, or hoping that I will get a female teller when Im in line at the bank. There are many other examples of how this pattern has repeated itself over and over again in my life. My Dad died when I was 17. As a child and throughout my teenage years I would play out fantasies almost every night in my head as I fell asleep. They brought me a sense of comfort. Every fantasy would involve a situation where I would be alone with another boy where neither one of us could escape. We would be stranded on an island or kidnapped and imprisoned. I loved thinking about these fantasies because it would force another boy to come to love me, and we would bond with one another. But looking back the most striking thing for me is how I felt about myself in these fantasies. I had no identity myself. There was no real me. It was almost as though I was trying to become one with this other boy, in an attempt perhaps of gaining an identity. As I hit puberty sexual fantasies began to replace the other ones. Its obvious to me that homosexuality (in my case) is an attempt at meeting unmet needs. I do not believe that my same-sex attractions and desires are on par with heterosexual ones. This post is getting long so im going to shorten it a bit here. QUOTE In any event, I have one beef with your thoughts, mostly since I may act as a counter example for a generalized case. I am considered by most to be a very masculine-acting gay, sort of a "stealth" model (in that I sporadically ping on "gaydar"). And I do not consider my self particularly feminine or effeminate, so I would question that part of your theory. Was it to be taken in the general case, or just for yourself? Im not sure what you mean by this question? But what I think your asking is if homosexuality is an attempt at gaining a sense of gender, then how do I explain masculine gay guys (or feminine lesbians). The only answer that I can give, is that perhaps its possible for a man to know biologically hes a man, be interested in other typical 'guy things', have masculine characteristics and mannerisms but still not know deep inside or feel confident that he is a man. I don't mean a man among gay men, but a man among heterosexual men. Almost as though they are lacking in gender-esteem. If there is such a thing. In any case what I say here is only meant for myself, but may be similar for many other gay men and women. I too am quite masculine. I played on my Jr High school football team, no one ever guessed I was gay. Not my Mother, my sister...any of my friends. In fact it took me a whole evening to convince my own best friend I was gay. I'm 250 pounds, with a large build and beard and can be very intimidating when I need to be. People tell me Im the 'butchest' gay person they know. But I couldn't tell you whether or not I am a man, because I dont know what a man is. Which leads to the next point I want to address: QUOTE While I don’t discount this as a possibility for ‘creating’ a homosexual, I often wonder if these conditions are a result of having a gay child rather than the condition that create a gay child This might be possible. What this idea suggests is that (if) children are born gay, then they are unlike their mother and their father. Almost like a 3rd sex. A gay male would know he is unlike his mother (otherwise he would be trans-gendered), but he also senses he is unlike his father. But because a boy isn't interested in fishing, sports or aggressive play doesn't make him gay. And just because he is interested in those things doesn't make him straight. Reparative therapists acknowledge this happens. And will suggest that Fathers take interest in the things their sons are interested in rather then expect the boy to be interested in the same things he is. But whether or not its the boy detaching from the Father, or the Father from the son...you still end up with a boy who may feel rejected by his Father. Thus setting off a chain reaction that could lead to homosexual development. I have a few questions I would like to ask you guys, and get your thoughts: 1) Of the millions and millions of people who identify as gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered is it reasonable to believe that we were all born this way? 2) If your answer to question 1 is no, then is it fair to treat the idea of reparative therapy with hostility? 3) Its not crazy to believe that a girl who is ignored by her father as a little girl might develop promiscuous (heterosexual) tendencies when she gets older. So what besides anger might be the result of a boy who is ignored by his father? Wouldn't homosexual activity almost make sense in a way? 4) If helping someone to change their orientation is immoral, where is the morality in forcing them to live a life that may not be right for them. Which is what gay activists are doing when they try to make reparative therapy illegal. Okay well this has been 2 hours in the writing so I'm leaving it at that for now...I look forward to your responses! Posted by: rainyday8169 Aug 2 2004, 07:26 PM QUOTE Well I just got back from my ex-gay weekend retreat. I had such a great time! I learned how to play baseball, basic engine repair, how to recognize 'hot chics' and I was the best in my 'how not to sound like a sissy' class. My nipples are still a bit sore from the electroshock therapy...but thats normal. Well no one can accuse you of not having a aense of humor Posted by: shinchy Aug 2 2004, 09:38 PM QUOTE (rainyday8169 @ Aug 2 2004, 08:26 PM) QUOTE Well I just got back from my ex-gay weekend retreat. I had such a great time! I learned how to play baseball, basic engine repair, how to recognize 'hot chics' and I was the best in my 'how not to sound like a sissy' class. My nipples are still a bit sore from the electroshock therapy...but thats normal. Well no one can accuse you of not having a aense of humor Rainy, you are a hot chick. All my female friends are hot chicks. Posted by: Erik the Awful Aug 2 2004, 10:55 PM Ender, I personally don't buy the idea that gay people are created by abusive or poor or emotionally detached enviornments. A. If true, that'd mean that maybe homosexuality is a disorder. B. If true, I think there'd be more homosexuality. I'm not really educated enough to make the above arguments, its just the "gut feeling" test for me. QUOTE I have a few questions I would like to ask you guys, and get your thoughts: 1) Of the millions and millions of people who identify as gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgendered is it reasonable to believe that we were all born this way? I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in between. Some were born. Some made a choice. QUOTE 2) If your answer to question 1 is no, then is it fair to treat the idea of reparative therapy with hostility? In the manner I see "reparative therapy" being done now, YES. Some *suspicion* if not hostility is warrented. But this comes back to CHOICE. Free Choice works both ways. I think the "politically gay" want to make it safe to choose to be gay, but not safe to "deconvert." I think that's a problem. But I don't trust the Christian orinizations doing the "therapy" either. I guess I'd want it checked out by a licensed agnostic psychologist or nine. We need some studies. QUOTE 3) Its not crazy to believe that a girl who is ignored by her father as a little girl might develop promiscuous (heterosexual) tendencies when she gets older. So what besides anger might be the result of a boy who is ignored by his father? Wouldn't homosexual activity almost make sense in a way? I still think that's an oversimplification. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there are some steps missing. Maybe if you'd expalin in more detail it would make sense to me. QUOTE 4) If helping someone to change their orientation is immoral, where is the morality in forcing them to live a life that may not be right for them. Which is what gay activists are doing when they try to make reparative therapy illegal. I totally agree with you on this point. Free Choice is Free Choice. It might go down easier with the gay activists if it wern't called "reparative therapy" AND if in the course of the therapy, there was a clear "OUT" for those who said to them selves, "Hey, Wait a second. This doesn't make sense to me. I think I'd like to keep being gay." Calling it "reparative therapy" means something is broken. We are not all agreed on that point. Posted by: Ender Aug 2 2004, 11:47 PM Erik the Awful, QUOTE Some were born. Some made a choice. I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'made a choice'. QUOTE QUOTE 3) Its not crazy to believe that a girl who is ignored by her father as a little girl might develop promiscuous (heterosexual) tendencies when she gets older. So what besides anger might be the result of a boy who is ignored by his father? Wouldn't homosexual activity almost make sense in a way? I still think that's an oversimplification. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but there are some steps missing. Maybe if you'd expalin in more detail it would make sense to me. My Sister and I discussed this the other night. She was no closer to my Dad than I was and became promiscuous in high school. Her friends who had little or no relationship with their fathers were also promiscuous. On the other hand her friends with good, strong relationships with their fathers were the least promiscuous. I saw the same pattern when I was in high school. We all probably did. So the point of my question was, if having a neglecting father increased the likelihood of a girl being promiscuous, then what effect does a neglecting father have on a boy? QUOTE Calling it "reparative therapy" means something is broken. We are not all agreed on that point. If homosexuality is developmental then something is broken. Posted by: Lanakila Aug 3 2004, 02:10 AM QUOTE If homosexuality is developmental then something is broken. Not necessarily. Since being homosexual doesn't harm those persons that are that way, or anyone else for that matter. It is sad that your father was detached and not there for you. I am a woman with a similar situation, and became promiscuous as a teenager. But, I recently discovered I am bisexual as well, and am wondering where bisexuality fits into this discussion. I haven't acted on my bisexuality yet, (had sex with a woman) but desire to do so. However I am still orientated towards relationships with men. I am not sure if that is cultural, or innate. Frankly I don't care. Life is too short to spend it unhappy. I am thinking that is what IBF thinks, and most gays that have settled with the "fact" of their homosexuality. While there may be environmental factors that helped lead to someone becoming gay. (that is up for debate btw) There is most likely a genetic component as well. I applaud you for having the courage to post this on this board, and those respondents for not throwing stones as well. IBF's testimony of his relationship with his father does disprove some of the arguments though. In other words there are exceptions, who don't feel the need to be repaired, because they don't feel broken. Posted by: Ender Aug 3 2004, 07:01 AM QUOTE I applaud you for having the courage to post this on this board Thank you Lanakila QUOTE IBF's testimony of his relationship with his father does disprove some of the arguments though. I disagree that his testimony disproves what I have said. I hold the door open that some people are born gay. But I also think that there are many, many factors that are involved in developing same-sex attraction. As I said in an earlier post the idea of a distant father may only provide a clue as to homosexual attraction. At any rate I can only speak from my own experience. For those whose same-sex desires are a result of environment the factors would vary from individual to individual. For some a rejecting father may have been a great factor, for others not so much. Posted by: I Broke Free Aug 3 2004, 08:15 AM QUOTE (Ender @ Aug 2 2004, 10:46 PM) Well I just got back from my ex-gay weekend retreat. I had such a great time! I learned how to play baseball, basic engine repair, how to recognize 'hot chics' and I was the best in my 'how not to sound like a sissy' class. My nipples are still a bit sore from the electroshock therapy...but thats normal. Welcome back Ender. I see your absence has not harmed your sense of humor. You had me going for the first couple of sentences. You have brought up many interesting points and posed some good questions. But I have to admit that it feels like we are talking casually about an issue while there is a 5-ton pink elephant in the room. That 5-ton pink elephant is “Christianity!” I have never come across a secular approach to reparative therapy for homosexuals, and I don’t believe there is one. I have to assume then that any group you are in is a Christian group and therefore your approach to healing the emotional scars of your youth is already crippled from the start. Huge numbers of people who enter the ex-gay movement eventually learn to accept their homosexuality and move on to happy productive lives. If you are a Christian then you have already excluded self-acceptance as a “choice.” By denying yourself even the possibility that you could be happy as a homosexual, you are denying the most successful reparative technique available. If it is your desire to do God’s will regardless of the personal consequences then you are in the right place. Posted by: Ender Aug 3 2004, 09:23 AM QUOTE (I BROKE FREE @ Aug 3 2004, 08:15 AM) QUOTE (Ender @ Aug 2 2004, 10:46 PM) Well I just got back from my ex-gay weekend retreat. I had such a great time! I learned how to play baseball, basic engine repair, how to recognize 'hot chics' and I was the best in my 'how not to sound like a sissy' class. My nipples are still a bit sore from the electroshock therapy...but thats normal. Welcome back Ender. I see your absence has not harmed your sense of humor. You had me going for the first couple of sentences. You have brought up many interesting points and posed some good questions. But I have to admit that it feels like we are talking casually about an issue while there is a 5-ton pink elephant in the room. That 5-ton pink elephant is “Christianity!” I have never come across a secular approach to reparative therapy for homosexuals, and I don’t believe there is one. I have to assume then that any group you are in is a Christian group and therefore your approach to healing the emotional scars of your youth is already crippled from the start. Huge numbers of people who enter the ex-gay movement eventually learn to accept their homosexuality and move on to happy productive lives. If you are a Christian then you have already excluded self-acceptance as a “choice.” By denying yourself even the possibility that you could be happy as a homosexual, you are denying the most successful reparative technique available. If it is your desire to do God’s will regardless of the personal consequences then you are in the right place. Hey Dennis, Christianity has absolutely nothing to with what I believe about homosexuality. I am not a Christian. Although I do come from a religious background, I stopped giving a shit what the Bible said about homosexuality when I was 17. QUOTE I have never come across a secular approach to reparative therapy for homosexuals, and I don’t believe there is one. www.narth.com Posted by: Lokmer Aug 3 2004, 09:27 AM I'd like to take a moment to point out that it's probably not terribly likely that a "gay gene" will ever be found. Sexual desire/attraction is controlled by the brain, and by particular parts of the brain that form as the result of neurochemistry in utero and shorly thereafter. While it's possible that there's a genetic component to homosexuality, everything I understand about fetal neuology seems to suggest that the formation of the sexual centers of the brain have more to do with the mother's biochemistry (the timing of hormone baths on the fetus, their intensity, et.al.) than with anything inherent in the embryo. This debate is too often broken down into "gentic" or "psychological" where it is assumed that people are either gay from conception or they are made gay by the actions of their parents. I submit that neither is the case - at all. Ignoring homosexuality, it is clear that the range of human sexual expression, experience, and attractions are fare more complex than "me want woman" or "me want man." Everything that happens to us from conception on has an effect on our sexuality becuase it effects the development of our brains and neurological system. It is a deeply complex interplay of psychological-environmental, biochemical, prenatal, genetic, neurological, behavioral, and emotional factors that we may never fully understand. That said, is it conceivable that someone could be homosexual as a behavioral disorder - serial killing, fetishism, vomiting, scat, bestiality, and the like are all psyhco-sexual behavioral disorders, I see no reason why an overdeveloped kink couldn't manifest as homosexuality in a person who, given a different set of neuroses, would be hetero. But that is a long way from saying that all gay people are simply just looking for Daddy. Given Ender's testimony here I'm inclined to agree with him - I don't know if that's why he's gay, I do know that he has stuff in his life that needs to be resolved because it dogs him. If he becomes straight as a result, that's fine. If he doesn't, that's fine too. But every man needs, on a basic level, to know what it is to be a man. He doesn't know this in his heart, and that's a vital part of himself that is missing. Best of luck to you in your quest, Ender. Find your identity - the sexuality thing will work itself out when you work the rest of you out. All the best! -Lokmer Posted by: Lokmer Aug 3 2004, 09:29 AM QUOTE (Ender @ Aug 3 2004, 10:23 AM) QUOTE I have never come across a secular approach to reparative therapy for homosexuals, and I don’t believe there is one. www.narth.com NARTH is a religious organization, founded and staffed by conservative Christians and orthodox Jews. Although they do offer a refreshing "rest of the story" approach by linking to medical studies that most mainstream media do not, they ARE a religious organization. -Lokmer Posted by: I Broke Free Aug 3 2004, 10:15 AM I am going to drop out of this discussion. I do not feel that I can be objective. Ender, wherever your journey leads you, I wish you all the happiness in the world. You deserve it. Sincerely, IBF Dennis Posted by: Geftakys Aug 4 2004, 07:36 AM Hi Shin, Wasn't Sy Rogers the guy who was the subject of a Kieth Green article back in the early 1980's?? I would like to know how he is doing these days? It has been very enlightening to raed these post thanks to all who have posted. Posted by: shinchy Aug 5 2004, 09:13 AM QUOTE (Geftakys @ Aug 4 2004, 08:36 AM) Hi Shin, Wasn't Sy Rogers the guy who was the subject of a Kieth Green article back in the early 1980's?? I would like to know how he is doing these days? It has been very enlightening to raed these post thanks to all who have posted. I found the article. And yes, it's the same person: http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles...nthemir |