Printable Version of Topic
Click here to view this topic in its original format
ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > Christianity ~ No Defense
Posted by: Reach Mar 23 2004, 09:31 PM
This topic is continued from http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2967&st=105
It is my personal, strongly held belief that we can not defend Christianity and represent Christ at the same time.
Kevin, my position is stated. What do you have to say to oppose this stance? Does Christianity need to be defended?
It's your turn.
My nickname: The Black Knight
Posted by: pitchu Mar 23 2004, 09:43 PM
Well, while we're waiting for Kevin I want to say you just blew the top of my head off, girl.
Wow!
(Can't hardly wait for more of this....)
Posted by: KJPee Mar 23 2004, 09:51 PM
QUOTE
Kevin, my position is stated. What do you have to say to oppose this stance? Does Christianity need to be defended?
Reach:
Your statement doesn't mean anything unless you define some parameters to it. Why do you assume that I oppose it?
I would rather clarify my post which has obviously got your back up. I really don't see the importantance of your question, at this particular moment, so I don't have an answer for you.
Kevin:
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 23 2004, 10:08 PM
QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 23 2004, 09:51 PM)
QUOTE
Kevin, my position is stated. What do you have to say to oppose this stance? Does Christianity need to be defended?
Reach:
Your statement doesn't mean anything unless you define some parameters to it. Why do you assume that I oppose it?
I would rather clarify my post which has obviously got your back up. I really don't see the importantance of your question, at this particular moment, so I don't have an answer for you.
Kevin:
There is a nifty 106 thread usenet thread with a similar spin.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=1ctb0vo0qrhvpmg756rsrmohmq8ejfnmq8%404ax.com&rnum=52&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D1ctb0vo0qrhvpmg756rsrmohmq8ejfnmq8%25404ax.com%26rnum%3D52
I think it's a great read.
$0.02
-UV
Posted by: Reach Mar 23 2004, 10:09 PM
The first thing I asked you to do was to clarify your post, Kevin. You chose to post to Chef and others. I'm waiting for you to clarify your position.
QUOTE (reach @ Mar 23 2004, 11:20 PM)
Kevin,
Perhaps you should just come out and say what you really mean instead of implying something and leaving it up to me to editorialize and guess at your words. Is this a game of craps or do you really have something to say?
Secondly, we were never told to go and defend the gospel or Christianity or Christians. Paul mentioned that kind of thing but guess who didn't? Yes. That's right. As far as I've been able to tell Jesus Christ told us to go love people and Paul said go contend for the faith. Which one of those two are you following?
It is my personal, strongly held belief that we can not defend Christianity and represent Christ at the same time.
I have to walk in the light I have and that's my understanding so that's how I live. I will not defend myself against your attacks either, Kevin. You are entitled to share the views of the Frothing Theist. I'm accustomed to attacks from Christians, many of whom are more comfortable with hatred than love. Hatred is easy and comes natural. Love is hard work and it always costs one something. I know that because I pay regularly.
reach
I'm still waiting. Come on buddy.
The Black Knight
Posted by: Reach Mar 23 2004, 10:21 PM
QUOTE (pitchu @ Mar 24 2004, 12:43 AM)
Well, while we're waiting for Kevin I want to say you just blew the top of my head off, girl.
Wow!
(Can't hardly wait for more of this....)
How on earth did I do that, pitchu? Just curious... ;-)
This little showdown thing is exciting, isn't it? And fun! Kevin loves fun.
The Black Knight
Posted by: Reach Mar 23 2004, 10:44 PM
Kevin ~ Oh brother! I'm just too nice.
Why don't you go get SOIL and we can make this a two on one? I always wanted to try a threesome. That's a joke.
He may word it differently but he agrees with you.
<Why am I helping Kevin?>
The Black Knight
UV ~ Thanks for the link. I'll read it on the other side of some sleep.
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 12:00 AM
Kevin,
I need to get one thing off my chest.
I'm a little frustrated by this debate for this reason: Kitty started a topic today on Depression. I would like to be spending my time reading her topic, the responses she's gotten and responding myself, in the hopes I might have one little thing to say that might comfort her. See, that's one of the things I believe I should be doing here. So, I'm a little frustrated, but just a little. This politely worded, yet obvious accusation you've made against me needs to be addressed and so actually, I'm thanking you for bringing this up.
The purpose of this site is to encourage Ex-Christians. Now you may disagree but I believe that the church (speaking in general) and Christianity has done some damage and made a mess and I'd like to help clean up some of the mess and repair a tiny bit of the damage, or at least try.
Veritas, for example, posts here in a gentle debate sort of style. He is doing what he thinks he should be doing. He has also questioned me about my position (or behavior) here but he has come to understand it better than any other Christians here. He does what he does and I do what I do.
QUOTE (KJPee @ Mar 23 2004, 11:04 PM)
Reach:
QUOTE
You don't have to understand what I'm doing. I did not owe you an explanation for anything. The only reason I'm even disclosing this to you is to challenge you to go find someone to love and then do it. I bear no shame in loving Dr. Neil and others on this site and I will NEVER apologize for doing so. We have been commanded to love people and I've come to love doing just that. And calling Neil, "Doctor Neil," is out of two things: respect and pure affection. Oh! Make it three. It's fun too.
Reach
I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I see the love you are spreading here to be a very positve thing, although I would say it is more a Reach thing, than a christian thing. Your presence here as a christian is very low key. You do not get into many heated discussions to defend christianity, or the points that christians raise here. Whether folk are visiting or registered does not make any difference to me, it is their opinions that count. I have no allegiance to anyone here, and will not compromise my faith in order to be popular. I suppose what I am trying to say in the nicest way possible, is that I can see why some unpleasant things have been directed at you. (I suppose you remember it was me who accused you of trying to earn brownie points). I do not say these things lightly, please believe that, but this has been on my heart now for some time.
Kevin:
Now, I've gone and dragged this post of yours over here for you to clarify what you are saying. I may be ready to do battle with you but I plan on acting like a lady through this entire affair. I do hope your sword is sharp. One of my favorite quotes is, "Dip the sword in honey and drive it deep." All the best to you.
The Black Knight
Posted by: .:ºstankdeezº:. Mar 24 2004, 01:04 AM
i didnt see kevin's post... but my first reaction to the statement was.. well that's not true at all.. then i thought... i thought about me.. and my parents [who i often allude to for purposes of anecdotes and examples].. i thought about you ... i thought about the Few and the Proud. i think you should name yourself something marine-like but thats just me and i have no imagination..
anyHOOTERz, at two in the morning, hungering for ICE CREAM, i find that for me, that statement is VERY VERY TRUE. ahhhh more later. im introducing a friend to the site.
Posted by: Guest Mar 24 2004, 02:18 AM
QUOTE
I really don't see the importantance of your question
...because you're dumb as a post, and also a coward because you threw out those words and now absolutley will not defend or explain them. When I was a Xtian I never preached at, or argued with, anyone - my conviction was that, if my faith wasn't evident to people in the way I approached tham and dealt with them, there was no point in talking about it. I see the way you conduct yourself and I don't want to hear a thing about your beliefs; I see the way Reach conducts herself and I see a heart transformed by belief, a heart of compassion. And that is what motivates her to be here; believe me, she has less need to be liked than you have to have people join you and give you a feeling of validation. "
'But go and learn what this means: 'I desire compassion more than sacrifice'..." Jesus, in Matthew 9:13
bdp
Posted by: _NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 04:01 AM
Reach
I think that it is class what you're doing here! Jesus wouldn't come in fighting and shouting, he would build friendships. That's what you've down. By defending Christianity we are imposing our own believes and standards on to others, who have no reason whatsoever to to listen to them as they don't believe in them. Therefore we could defend Chrstianity till we're blue in the face with no avail other than no annoy people and get their backs up. You have an amazing gift here and I thank God for that. I had a friend who thought that in order to be a witness you always had to talk about God and give peolpe leaflets and stuff, and this was at a night club! People simple weren't interested, but she was relying on human effort alone. Her mere presence there I fully trust has an impact, as does yours here. I hope you don't think me presumptous in saying this, but I know God is so proud of what you're doing
your sister in Christ
Mae (ps i forgot to log in!)
Posted by: Guest Mar 24 2004, 04:29 AM
QUOTE
it really a psychological reaction rather than a rational one.
bullshit.
QUOTE
Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sartre,
what do any of these people have to do with Xtianity? probably what you have to do with intellect - nothing.
you are a dickweed. you have not a scrap of compassion, and you have nothing - nothing - I want. Anyone who makes any association between you and 'Christ' is going to run screaming from your 'gospel,' as they should. You whitewashed tomb.
bdp
ps - if you were here before me I'd bloody your nose for disrespecting such a lovely human being as reach.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 04:31 AM
was he insulting her? I thought that was good what he said! Maybe not though!
Posted by: Guest Mar 24 2004, 04:32 AM
QUOTE
it really a psychological reaction rather than a rational one.
...so loving unconditionally is irrational..?
bdp
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 04:36 AM
Did he not mean that it's not a planned out tactic, but one that comes naturally? I see your point though, hopefully he can clear it up when hes on. What does bdp mean?
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 04:38 AM
QUOTE (The Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 04:20 AM)
Don't defend Christianity, just "represent" it...many great thinkers would certainly agree! Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Sartre, even Dan Barker said something similar on campus last fall.
Let the atheists capture the field without any opposition! It the Christian thing to do. People like reach remind me of the hostages who start to identify with their captors and actually begin to defend them...it really a psychological reaction rather than a rational one.
I'm curious now,
So this means go around defending water-walking, food-multiplying, strom-halting stories as truth? But, claim all other miraculous events come from the demonic?
If one must believe the bible as fundamentalists preach it, we must believe in a literal Satan too, one that has demons running around trying to draw people to himself through the work of "false religions" and whatnot.
A fundamentalist told me he saw "physical manifestations of the demonic" right in front of his face. Ok, so if Satan's goal is to draw glory away from the god Jesus Christ, then why does this Satan not physically manifest on TV so he can reach a larger audience and make people believe in one of the "false religions" that are out there? It just doesn't add up.
Satan cannot be both smart enough to physically manifest to fundamentalists and yet so dumb that he avoids manifesting in front of the television camera to attract a larger audience.
Or perhaps that's what satan did during the events depicted at http://www.milkmiracle.com. Satan and his demons made statues drink milk so as to draw glory away from the true god of the universe, Jesus Christ, and bring glory to the false religion of fundamentalist Hinduism.
Wow, listen to this stuff:
http://acs.ucsd.edu/~idea/miracles.htm
---
Barry also said that once he became a Christian, he was the victim of what Christians often call spiritual attack. This is a real phenomena, because there are evil spiritual beings who oppose God. He says that he saw demons come in the form of elf-like creatures, and also as leprochauns. He says that right after he gave his life to the Lord he will never forget how he was mysteriously confronted in a man dressed in black whom Barry is sure was satan. The man in black threatened Barry that Barry would never be able get away from him. Barry had been involved in the satanic church before he went to jail, and experienced attacks and threats from evil spiritual beings often right as he was becoming a Christian. However, Barry also recounted many incidents where he witnessed the power of God to help people overcome spiritual attack in their lives.
Barry also recounted seeing an angel flying as a young boy. It was floating in an upright walking posture and had full wings. He recalled seeing it and immediately running home.
---
I ask it again loud and clear: if the demonic and satanic are real and can manifest themselves physically as certain believers are sure they can and do, then why don't these demonic beings manifest themselves so as to be captured on film in order to draw maximum glory away from "the true god Jesus Christ"?
It just doesn't add up. If satan and his demons are real and can physically manifest, then we should fully expect them to be on the nightly news drawing glory to "the false religions".
-UV
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 04:41 AM
Mae ~ Thank you sister.
Anti-Atheist,
Man! I just logged in to respond to a post from you, Anti-Atheist, and whoosh! It's been deleted. See what rudeness and name-calling gets you?
You have drawn the conclusion that I've come to identify with my "captors" as a prisoner sometimes does. Thank you Dr. Freud, for your analysis.
Let me make myself clear. I'm not interested in your opinions at all. If you would like to offer some verses from the Bible to defend your position, that's what I'm willing to hear. If you would like to do that, be it known to you that I use the King James Bible. I will not get into any discussion with you that does not include references from the alleged words of Jesus Christ.
http://www.justbible.com/
Posted by: Neil Mar 24 2004, 04:47 AM
Well, I got that reply notice, too, Reach. I guess I'll just make a short rebuttal, even though the original post isn't here...
Anti-Atheist... The point was that you misrepresented a quote. You lied. Worse yet, you got caught lying. You knowingly tried to deceive us by changing the context of what Richard Dawkins said. And try as you might, no ammount of equivocation is going to make his words mean what you want them to.
Posted by: Guest Mar 24 2004, 04:50 AM
QUOTE
What does bdp mean?
big dumb puffin. My last name derives from the same old Norse word (lunde) that meant 'puffin,' but also meant 'awkward or clumsy.' If you've ever seen puffins do anything you know how the one word came to mean both. So I figure way back when some Norse guy was walking around and just tripped over his own feet, fell flat on his face, and his Norse buddies all laughed and said 'You big dumb puffin!' And it stuck, and eventually became a regular name. At least that's my theory. Now back to the debate...
bdp
Posted by: THE Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 04:51 AM
Interesting argument; but it such beings did manifest themsevlves, it could certainly backfire on them because it would leave no room for atheism...
Or it could certainly be explained by "free" thinkers as contact by a hostile alien intelligence.
As to defending Christianity, it's world view represents the idea that a creative mind is responsible for all existence, rather than mindless forces. Questions of the problem of evil are separate. (I always like to ask the survival of the fittest crowd about the problem of good.)
The atheists problem is that they must maintain that all existence, all knowledge, all reason, and even mind itself are a product of mindless forces...they then must maintain that this mind is an objective guide to reality but this can only be supported by reference to the mind itself...which has evolved (in their view) to deal with this particular environment in this particular era.
They then go on to project the processess of this mind to the processess of the entire known univerce.
Frankly, by itself, this is as irrational as fundamentalism.
I need more detail, and I haven't found it from atheists.
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 04:56 AM
QUOTE (Neil @ Mar 24 2004, 07:47 AM)
Well, I got that reply notice, too, Reach. I guess I'll just make a short rebuttal, even though the original post isn't here...
It looks like UV captured the post, Dr. Neil, at least part of it. Check the top of this page.
The Black Knight
Posted by: THE Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 05:01 AM
Oh, by the way reach, since you have encouraged the Webmaster to delete my posts, on a thread which invites unregistered users to post and to EXPECT HEATED RESPONSES...its clear that you are not interested in a two sided argument.
As to you Neil, same thing.
But as to your remark reach, about the "alleged" words of Jesus, see what I mean? As long as you curry favor with the atheists, they will pretend to like you...but try taking a stand of serious opposition to them on one of their pet issues and watch them turn on you like a mob.
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 05:03 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 04:51 AM)
Interesting argument; but it such beings did manifest themsevlves, it could certainly backfire on them because it would leave no room for atheism...
Or it could certainly be explained by "free" thinkers as contact by a hostile alien intelligence.
As to defending Christianity, it's world view represents the idea that a creative mind is responsible for all existence, rather than mindless forces. Questions of the problem of evil are separate. (I always like to ask the survival of the fittest crowd about the problem of good.)
The atheists problem is that they must maintain that all existence, all knowledge, all reason, and even mind itself are a product of mindless forces...they then must maintain that this mind is an objective guide to reality but this can only be supported by reference to the mind itself...which has evolved (in their view) to deal with this particular environment in this particular era.
They then go on to project the processess of this mind to the processess of the entire known univerce.
Frankly, by itself, this is as irrational as fundamentalism.
I need more detail, and I haven't found it from atheists.
I do not feel think this is a valid argument at all.
Why?
Let's take a simple example.
Say that moderate atheism leaves most people in the position of trying to do best by themselves and their loved ones and strangers, while extreme atheism makes people very angry and anti-anything God like. Ok, fine.
Now, let's say there is a "false religion" out there that requires human sacrifice, and lots of it, and the sacrifices must come at random on the streets. When a practicioner commits this sacrifice, the demons inhabit the body of a beautiful man or woman or several and make them the sex slaves of the practicioner depending on the observed sexual habits of the practicioner.
The demons know that they can cause more strife and chaos on this earth by manifesting themselves through the human sacrificial form than by remaining silent and allowing atheism.
This argument has to be this absurd because the notion that demonic beings can physically manifest themselves in order to help bring glory away from Jesus and toward the false religions is equally absurd if not more absurd coupled with the fact that we have no irrerfutable proof of such things happening in our modern day and age of video reproduction. If you count http://www.milkmiracle.com as proof, then read about about capillary action and apply the principle of parsimony.
-UV
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 05:06 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 04:51 AM)
Interesting argument; but it such beings did manifest themsevlves, it could certainly backfire on them because it would leave no room for atheism...
Or it could certainly be explained by "free" thinkers as contact by a hostile alien intelligence.
As to defending Christianity, it's world view represents the idea that a creative mind is responsible for all existence, rather than mindless forces. Questions of the problem of evil are separate. (I always like to ask the survival of the fittest crowd about the problem of good.)
The atheists problem is that they must maintain that all existence, all knowledge, all reason, and even mind itself are a product of mindless forces...they then must maintain that this mind is an objective guide to reality but this can only be supported by reference to the mind itself...which has evolved (in their view) to deal with this particular environment in this particular era.
They then go on to project the processess of this mind to the processess of the entire known univerce.
Frankly, by itself, this is as irrational as fundamentalism.
I need more detail, and I haven't found it from atheists.
AA, then if you are not a fundamentalist I don't expect you to believe such stories as Jesus casting demons into swine.
I myself do not consider myself an atheist that would believe in completely mindless forces giving rise to mind, but I have no trouble believing the Christianity is yet another attempt to explain the true nature of the divine, but is not The Truth.
-UV
Posted by: THE Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 05:13 AM
Hey UV, but what if such being did manifest themselve and it would caught by say CNN? What would the implications of that be? Atheists would have to explain it somehow.
And that could be a factor in their limiting their manifestations. (This is just meant to be a wild card speculation, but you have brought up an interesting question that I had not really thought about.)
In other words, couldn't such manifestations backfire on their "cause" so to speak?
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 05:15 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 08:01 AM)
Oh, by the way reach, since you have encouraged the Webmaster to delete my posts, on a thread which invites unregistered users to post and to EXPECT HEATED RESPONSES...its clear that you are not interested in a two sided argument.
As to you Neil, same thing.
But as to your remark reach, about the "alleged" words of Jesus, see what I mean? As long as you curry favor with the atheists, they will pretend to like you...but try taking a stand of serious opposition to them on one of their pet issues and watch them turn on you like a mob.
I believe you are mistaken. Can you recheck that? Did I say that or was that someone else? I admit I've been up all night.
Consider your audience, Anti-Atheist. Using the term "the alleged words of Jesus Christ" eliminates the need to get into five different debates here. I would think of it as a slight temporary "concession" while we stay focused on what your MAIN complaints are. Understand? Your negative attitude towards me is coloring your objectivity.
I have no intention of opposing the atheists and ex-Xtians in this community. I didn't come here for that reason. If you want to oppose them, go ahead and they'll spit with even more force on your "Jesus."
The Black Knight
Dr. Neil... in addition to tracking this topic NOW, I have my board setting so that the actual replies are emailed to me, just in case we lose another post from our friend. Couldn't resist calling him friend.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 05:15 AM
I am so confused! plus i have a paper to do...
Posted by: moorezw Mar 24 2004, 05:24 AM
QUOTE
As long as you curry favor with the atheists, they will pretend to like you...but try taking a stand of serious opposition to them on one of their pet issues and watch them turn on you like a mob.
This is http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2694 the case.
Posted by: bdp Mar 24 2004, 05:31 AM
...and now that I'm re-registered...
I'm going to back out of this thread lest I incur the wrath of the great Black Knight who set it up in the first place to do battle with Kevin and anyone else from that camp - Reach, you can handle all comers with no help from me - the pinheads just irritate me so. Your thread, and my attempt to turn it back over to you. *bowing low before you*
bdp
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 05:35 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 08:30 AM)
Well has the stupid bitch ever tried?? Don't think so! All she does is lick ass! So moorezw this IS the case. And noreligion, who gives a shit about your paper! Why don't you go lick reaches ass!
Anti-Atheist,
Could you answer with Scripture, please? Not your opinion. Not name calling. Just Bible. Are you able to come up with three passages to establish you might have a leg to stand on?
There is no such thing as Matthew 195:94-99*
*courtesy of posts arriving in email
The Black Knight
Posted by: THE Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 05:50 AM
Look Reach, I apologise. I was out of turn to use language like that. Please forgive me.
Posted by: biggles7268 Mar 24 2004, 05:52 AM
QUOTE
Hey UV, but what if such being did manifest themselve and it would caught by say CNN? What would the implications of that be? Atheists would have to explain it somehow.
I can't speak for all athiests, but if something like this happened and provided proof then i would no longer be an athiest. But until then I'll still be waiting.
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 05:55 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 08:50 AM)
Look Reach, I apologise. I was out of turn to use language like that. Please forgive me.
Let's just move ahead. You have a problem with Tocis, Dr. Neil and me.
In polite language please state your exact complaint.
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 05:58 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 05:13 AM)
In other words, couldn't such manifestations backfire on their "cause" so to speak?
What would that "cause" be, to start with?
Anyway, there's always the possibility that you have been in error, whatever the topic in question. Humans do make mistakes, that's normal and no reason to be ashamed of. The abomination starts when people cling to their mistakes, unable to say "Okay, I was wrong".
So far, there's no proof at all (at least as far as I know) for any religion of the world being the One True Faith™, or for any deity being real. If such proof is discovered, no matter if tomorrow or in the year 9000, many things will change - no doubt about that.
Posted by: THE Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 05:58 AM
I think that you are complimenting the ex-christians at the expense of your faith. You are allowing them to insult Jesus in front of you and you smile at them like a doting mother.
Tocis lives in his on little worlds of vikings and dragons, and Neill is an arrogant litte pest.
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 05:59 AM
QUOTE (reach @ Mar 24 2004, 05:55 AM)
Let's just move ahead. You have a problem with Tocis, Dr. Neil and me.
In polite language please state your exact complaint.
Wait a moment, a problem with me? Gee, what did I miss?
(Later)
Ah, I see now. Should have stuck with the first thread. Reading that now...
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 06:12 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 08:58 AM)
I think that you are complimenting the ex-christians at the expense of your faith.
Please state what "the expense of my faith" entails.
QUOTE
You are allowing them to insult Jesus in front of you and you smile at them like a doting mother.
Of course I am "allowing" them to insult Jesus. If Jesus is God, is he so impotent that he needs me, a mere mortal human to defend him? That's preposterous! Some would call it blasphemous (yet they would be in error to do so).
QUOTE
Tocis lives in his on little worlds of vikings and dragons...
Surely you can do better than that.
QUOTE
...and Neil is an arrogant litte pest.
Surely you can do better than that. I'll grant that he's arrogant. So what?
Scripture, please... just lay it out. You don't have to have the exact verses. What kind of things did Jesus say?
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 06:31 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 05:58 AM)
Tocis lives in his on little worlds of vikings and dragons
Ts ts ts... actually the world I live in is very real, especially right now as I'm posting from our office, on evening shift, and just on the other side of the wall to my right, 800 "Volkswagen Touran" minivans are built per day. My faith is but one part of my life.
Judging from your babblings, your faith is your whole life. That's your problem fundie boy. I can have a problem with my faith but continue to live while dealing with that problem. If you find a problem with your idols you imagine your whole life in mortal peril.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 06:41 AM
QUOTE
NoReligion is a stupid little cow who trys to take on the big guys. She hasn't used one bit of scripture yet she's your 'sister'. How does that work?
Huh? Where did that come from? Are you not a Christian? If you are, why are you attacking reach and myself?
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 06:48 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:41 AM)
QUOTE
NoReligion is a stupid little cow who trys to take on the big guys. She hasn't used one bit of scripture yet she's your 'sister'. How does that work?
Huh? Where did that come from? Are you not a Christian? If you are, why are you attacking reach and myself?
Because Reach and you are not hurling hatred left and right in the name of a "loving god" like (what this anencephalos thinks is) a True Christian™.
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 06:50 AM
Now what, AA? Can't find scripture to support your hatemongering position, eh?
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 06:51 AM
Tocis, I want to apologisse on behalf of anti atheist. It's attitudes like this which get me so angry! Please don't take him as the sole representative of our faith.
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 06:52 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 05:13 AM)
Hey UV, but what if such being did manifest themselve and it would caught by say CNN? What would the implications of that be? Atheists would have to explain it somehow.
And that could be a factor in their limiting their manifestations. (This is just meant to be a wild card speculation, but you have brought up an interesting question that I had not really thought about.)
In other words, couldn't such manifestations backfire on their "cause" so to speak?
I do not think this is valid at all.
We have to consider the fundamentalist's oft cited protest that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in this discussion. The fundamentalist asserts that the scriptures are true. The scriptures speak of a man "casting out" demons that physically transfer into other creatures. Fundamentalists assert that demonic activity exists and physically manifests itself in the world. Fundamentalists and non-fundamentalists alike assert that Satan is a real being and exerts influence over human beings. He is said to do this because he wants to draw glory away from Jesus and to himself through false religions and other tactics.
Now, given these assertions, I think it's reasonable to expect to see some completely irrefutable attestation to satan's miraculous powers recorded on video for the world to see.
Why?
Take a counter argument to "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" that reads this way: "the presence of evidence is evidence of presence".
For example, if a satanic being can physically manifest, then it would make perfect sense for a satanic being to demon possess someone who disagrees with a fundamentalist on certain key doctrines to the point of exhibiting miraculous powers. Why? Because doing so would draw glory away from the fundamentalist conception of Jesus as God and bring glory toward the false doctrine speaking demon-possessed heretic.
A further example: we should reasonably expect a being that is capable of unleashing his minions on the world in physical capacities to wield highly documentable miracles in the "false religions" that would draw people in to the point of absolute apostasy from Christ. Necessarily, the only possible response by Jesus would be to send his angels in response to exert their miraculous counter measures.
What would be an irrefutable satanic miracle? I discussed this in another thread, but basically I think that if Satan restored a hand to a human being, say a Muslim, through the action of an Islamic fundamentalist who declared allegiance to Osama Bin Laden that this would constitute a miracle. This would have to be documented on CNN for the entire planet to witness.
Without any doubt in my mind, atheists would have to come up with some explanation, AA, but you neglect the fact that most people are not atheists, and therefore Satan would not be interested in such a small population. Rather, Satan would be much more interested in folks like those videotaped at http://www.milkmiracle.com.
What is a reasonable Christian response to this? I don't know. Maybe that angels are battling demons right this moment to prevent the demons from physically manifesting on TV so that Jesus doesn't have to send his angels in full force to redeem the world. Honestly, that is the only possible explanation I can think of for a Christian response. The question then is what is more parsimonious? That this world is as it is without need for recourse to demonic and angelic beings or that a tenuous balance exists between satanic and angelic beings that is so precise that there has never been and never will be any irrefutable documentary evidence of satanic or angelic activity recorded on CNN for the world to see.
I don't see this as a false dichotomy if the person to whom I direct this question is a Bible-believing, Satan-is-real-believing person. If anyone sees it as such, please explain.
To recap, I believe the following is a highly reasonable statement:
It is not rational to believe that a being of supernatural power, namely Satan of the Bible, who is viewed as wanting to draw glory away from Jesus and towards himself, would fail to physically and irrefutably manifest his powers on national and global television so as to maximize his potential for drawing glory away from God and to the "false religions" and "false ideologies".
-UV
If anyone disagrees, please explain why a supernatural being like Satan would fail to use the most incredibly mass medium of the day to draw glory away from Jesus and to himself and also why angelic beings fail to irrefutable demonstrate their powers.
It's not that difficult, really, just show me the money.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 06:54 AM
UV, even Satan is under God's command. For example in Job he went to God to ask permission to have Job. Dunno if that answers your big long thing, but its a stab
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 06:55 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:51 AM)
Tocis, I want to apologisse on behalf of anti atheist. It's attitudes like this which get me so angry! Please don't take him as the sole representative of our faith.
Thanks. Actually I wouldn't dare to compare fundie bastards like him with decent Christians like Reach and (as far as I can tell from the short time since you started posting here) you.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 06:55 AM
By big long thing i mean your post. Just in case there was any confusion!
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 06:56 AM
QUOTE (Guest @ Mar 24 2004, 09:15 AM)
So what's with you and 'Dr' Neil? You doing more than licking his ass for him??
I pity you.
I also challenge you to take one day and one person whose conduct you normally deem unrighteous and show mercy.
I am posting the following clip just for you. This is not for anyone else on this site, Guest; it's only for you. This was written by a much loved, Christian Pastor and the President of Southeastern College in Lakeland, Florida.
The Mercy We Need
I sat by the hospital bed of an angry man who was dying of AIDS. He was a nineteen-year-old Hispanic, wearing a frilly pink negligee
and holding a teddy bear.
"I guess you came to tell me God hates gays," he said.
"No. I was afraid that's what you thought. I came to tell you God loves gays."
"I'm nearly twenty," he spat out. "I've had several thousand men as lovers since I was twelve. You mean God's not mad about that?"
"He's not mad. He's sad. You gave yourself AIDS and your Creator is so very sad."
"Well, you're a strange preacher," he said, tears of frustration brimming in his eyes.
"Am I? In what way?"
"Well, don't you think sodomy is a sin?"
"Yes, I certainly do. Just like adultery and fornication and murder and stealing are sins. But I also know God still loves you. He's no
more horrified at your sins than He is by mine."
We talked for about an hour before he prayed with me to confess his sins and trust in Christ as his Saviour. When we looked up
at each other from that prayer, he immediately asked for an orderly.
"Please," he said. "Tell him to hurry. I don't want to die in a pink nightgown."
A few hours later, that young man died in a plain green hospital gown. Just before he died, he whispered to me, "At my funeral,
there'll be a lot of gays. Preach…" His voice trailed off.
"What?" I urged him. "Preach on what?"
"Mercy."
Streams of Mercy
Dr. Mark Rutland
1999
Now what were you saying about me and Dr. Neil?
Let he that is without sin cast the first stone!
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 06:57 AM
QUOTE (Tocis @ Mar 24 2004, 06:55 AM)
Thanks. Actually I wouldn't dare to compare fundie bastards like him with decent Christians like Reach and (as far as I can tell from the short time since you started posting here) you.
I hope i will continue earning your respect!
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 07:00 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:54 AM)
UV, even Satan is under God's command. For example in Job he went to God to ask permission to have Job. Dunno if that answers your big long thing, but its a stab
It certainly does not answer it, but thanks for the attempt.
-UV
Posted by: Neil Mar 24 2004, 07:02 AM
QUOTE (THE Anti-Atheist @ Mar 24 2004, 07:01 AM)
Oh, by the way reach, since you have encouraged the Webmaster to delete my posts, on a thread which invites unregistered users to post and to EXPECT HEATED RESPONSES...its clear that you are not interested in a two sided argument.
As to you Neil, same thing.
No one encouraged anything. Reach and I went to answer your post within minutes of getting the notice, and it wasn't there when we got there.
And beside the point, I responded to it, even thought it wasn't there anymore. I think that was being more than fair in answering it, because I didn't actually have to do shit. I could have just pretended like your post never existed.
Besides, you misrepresented a quote. What you wanted Dawkins to say isn't what he said. Get over it.
How about you contact the mods and ask them why your post got deleted.
QUOTE
In other words, couldn't such manifestations backfire on their "cause" so to speak?
I don't have a cause. I don't have an agenda, outside of showing people that presuppositions should be based on what we actually know about the world rather than supernatural mysteries.
QUOTE
I think that you are complimenting the ex-christians at the expense of your faith. You are allowing them to insult Jesus in front of you and you smile at them like a doting mother.
She's not being a "team player". Boo effing hoo...
She's not being the Christian™ you think she should be.
QUOTE
Tocis lives in his on little worlds of vikings and dragons, and Neill is an arrogant litte pest.
Yeah, it must be so annoying when I caught you quote-mining http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2825&st=185 and when I pointed out the problems with your uncle story http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2967&st=82.
Let me ask you something. Am I a pest because I'm not a Christian or because I keep mercilessly persuing your dishonesty?
QUOTE
NoReligion is a stupid little cow who trys to take on the big guys. She hasn't used one bit of scripture yet she's your 'sister'. How does that work?
Sticks and stones may break her bones, but names...
Uhh... perhaps we shouldn't give the Frothing Theist any ideas pertaining to throwing stones. You know how those fundies think.
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 07:02 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:55 AM)
By big long thing i mean your post. Just in case there was any confusion!
Hahahahaha, haven't found an "answer" to that yet hahahaha.
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 07:02 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:57 AM)
I hope i will continue earning your respect!
You're well on your way to continue earning respect from me - that much is true. Right on!
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 07:06 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 06:55 AM)
By big long thing i mean your post. Just in case there was any confusion!
And just a bit about why it does not: fundamentalists claim that satanic activity it always going on behind the scenes, but they are CERTAIN that it's there. There is no defensible logical answer as to why this activity must always be behind the scenes. None.
Chip Ingram, www.lote.org, told me face to face that he has witnessed "demonic activity" in physical manifestations when I asked him why I should disbelieve in miracles from other religions but believe that many dead saints came back to life in Matthew 27:52 but are not attested to by any secular history whatsoever. He said "the false religions" have all sorts of demonic activity. Ok, Chip, where? Show it on film, on tape, now, because there is no defensible position as to why a being that wants to take as much glory as possible from Jesus would fail to use his the optimal medium in which to do so, in my opinion.
Remember, all it takes is for an Osama Bin Laden follower to have a severed hand regenerated on CNN. It can be cut off again and regrown instantly. This would prove physical supernatural "demonic" activity or at least undeniably strange activity, but we see none of it, anywhere. Visit http://www.randi.org for more discussion about this type of thing.
-UV
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:07 AM
QUOTE
Hahahahaha, haven't found an "answer" to that yet hahahaha.
I have no idea what your talking about! ( lol!)
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:11 AM
There are many things that go onthat could be considered as demon activity. For example people who encounter spirits ect or getting caught up in the occult- black magic. Basically something as innocent a physic ability, which i beileve is gifted by God, can be used by the devil to drag people from God. Then there is the Nephilim... but that would take tooo long. it's a cool topic, you should look into it, but i don't have any links!
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 07:21 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Neil @ Mar 24 2004, 10:02 AM)
Let me ask you something. Am I a pest because I'm not a Christian or because I keep mercilessly persuing your dishonesty?
You guessed it. A relentless pursuit of the truth earns you the label of "pest," as long as what you find does not support the name-caller's version of truth.
QUOTE (Dr. Neil)
QUOTE (The Fool)
NoReligion is a stupid little cow who trys to take on the big guys. She hasn't used one bit of scripture yet she's your 'sister'. How does that work?
Sticks and stones may break her bones, but names...
Uhh... perhaps we shouldn't give the Frothing Theist any ideas pertaining to throwing stones. You know how those fundies think.
Ssshhhh....
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:25 AM
Do you guys get many people like that?? He's quite vicious!
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 07:26 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:11 AM)
There are many things that go onthat could be considered as demon activity. For example people who encounter spirits ect or getting caught up in the occult- black magic. Basically something as innocent a physic ability, which i beileve is gifted by God, can be used by the devil to drag people from God. Then there is the Nephilim... but that would take tooo long. it's a cool topic, you should look into it, but i don't have any links!
None of it answers my question:
Why do we have no irrefutable attestatoin in today's day and age of video reproduction to these things on CNN for the whole world to see so that Satan can draw maximum glory away from Jesus?
I believe it is because Satan exists in the human mind, in the psyche, not in the universe as an independent being.
It's simple:
Put a Jesus follower on TV and show him restore a severed hand from someone, then show an Islamic fundamentalist do the same thing to a Bin Laden follower.
Since Jesus is "biggr'n" Allah, we would expect to see a momentous battle the likes of which cannot be rivaled by any Hollywood movie.
I'm tired of hearing Christians say that non-Christians will say anything to deny Christ when their very own doctrines dictate that Satan will do anything and can do miracles to draw glory away from Jesus, but yet Satan fails to do this for all to see!
That would be like me, were I a Muslim, saying that people will do anything to deny that Mohammed was God's last and final prophet and that Allah is the Most High God!
-UV
Posted by: Tocis Mar 24 2004, 07:27 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:25 AM)
Do you guys get many people like that?? He's quite vicious!
Every so often one of these idiots arrives here. I believe it was Reach who named them "Seagull fundies" some time ago (flies in, craps on everything non-christian, flies out).
Posted by: Neil Mar 24 2004, 07:30 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 09:25 AM)
Do you guys get many people like that?? He's quite vicious!
Oh man, do we... And then we're mean because we point out all the problems in their arguments and we get labeled as "pests" because we're just doing our thing.
I mean... HONESTLY! What are we doing here that's so wrong? I've never once gone to a Christian forum to spread hate propoganda.
What would atheist propoganda sound like?
"You better stop believing in God because... uh... because... Well, I guess nothing's going to happen."
hehehe... seagull fundies. That's good.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:32 AM
hmm well i don't have a definite answer. In my opinion Satan is already drwaing people away from God successfully enough without have to go on tv. I don't know whether this is biblical or not, but maybe satan is not permitted by God to reveal himself, on saying that though, soe people have the spiritual gift of seeing angels, and therefore as the devil was an angel, of seeing him. Ultimately though, the devil is doing a good enough job of taking the glory away from Jesus. Every day there are reports on the TV of oeople being killed and raped. The devil loves that! When those reports are coming out people turn the finger of blame to Jesus and the devil laughs.
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 07:43 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:32 AM)
hmm well i don't have a definite answer. In my opinion Satan is already drwaing people away from God successfully enough without have to go on tv. I don't know whether this is biblical or not, but maybe satan is not permitted by God to reveal himself, on saying that though, soe people have the spiritual gift of seeing angels, and therefore as the devil was an angel, of seeing him. Ultimately though, the devil is doing a good enough job of taking the glory away from Jesus. Every day there are reports on the TV of oeople being killed and raped. The devil loves that! When those reports are coming out people turn the finger of blame to Jesus and the devil laughs.
With all due respect, I don't see this as rational at all.
One last post today for me:
Christians believe such things as Jesus "casting out" demons and tossing them into swine.
Fundies to this day have told me, face to face, that demonic physical manifestations occur that include miraculous activity.
Satan is held as a being that wants Maxium Glory for himself, rather than Jesus.
The best possible way to acheive maxium glory is to go on tv and miraculous heal a non-Christian so as to bring glory to a "false religion", and I'm not talking about healing a typical ailment. I'm talking about a bonafied miracle like a hand being regrown instantly. This is something that would bring maxium glory away from Jesus.
Your post is full of bald assertion. I think mine delineates a clear and testable hypothesis based upon the texts of the bible and the doctrines of fundamentalists of today.
To postulate that God doesn't allow this or that or that Satan is doing a good enough job is to enter in a world where you must apply the principle of parsimony:
What is the more likely answer to the issue? What requires less fantastical analysis and less complication?
A) No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic activity exists because of a tenuous balance forced by God and his legions of angelic beings fighting spiritual tooth and nail against demonic forces, such that only naturalistic manifestations that bare no resemblance to anything clearly out of the ordinary (like hands regrown) are ever caught on video tape or live feeds.
or
No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic acitivity exists because it does not exist.Seems like a reasonable question to me, given fundi doctrine and bible reading.
-UV
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:51 AM
You don't see it as rational? Would you care to expand? Perhaps you don't see it as rational beacuse it does not fit it to you're beliefs. I don't think that some atheistic aruements are rational. I think it would only be manners to expand, as I took the time to answer your posts!
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:52 AM
oops i just read the rest of your post and realised that you did expand! Sorry for being rude!! lol!!
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 07:56 AM
UV no evidence exists to refute that the world was created by a God. Yet you still believe that it wasn't. Lack of evidence does not equal impossibility. My hypothesises can be proven by methods that you would not believe in, or would make excuses about, therefore you will never find the evidence to answer your question.
Posted by: The Actual Anti-Atheist Mar 24 2004, 07:57 AM
I find this fascinating...you people ARE desparate...the bulk of the above posts above are not even mine, as the WEBMASTER is well aware, so I assume he is participating in this charade.
Sorry to tell you reach, and Tocis, but you are arguing with one of your own people
Posted by: Reach Mar 24 2004, 07:58 AM
QUOTE (Tocis @ Mar 24 2004, 10:27 AM)
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:25 AM)
Do you guys get many people like that?? He's quite vicious!
Every so often one of these idiots arrives here. I believe it was Reach who named them "Seagull fundies" some time ago (flies in, craps on everything non-christian, flies out).
That's correct, Tocis; I did say that (in slightly different words). Thanks for reminding me but honestly, I can smell it and it stinks around here at the moment.
QUOTE (Dr. Neil)
hehehe... seagull fundies. That's good.
Thanks professor.. I aims to please. *rubbing seasalt in the fundygull wound*
Posted by: moorezw Mar 24 2004, 08:03 AM
Actual Anti-Atheist-
All of the above unregistered posts come from a common IP range that is shared by many non-registered posters who contribute similar content, but under different names. If you would like to distinguish yourself from the others, I would suggest that you register.
Posted by: channelcat Mar 24 2004, 08:07 AM
QUOTE (UV2003 @ Mar 24 2004, 07:43 AM)
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:32 AM)
hmm well i don't have a definite answer. In my opinion Satan is already drwaing people away from God successfully enough without have to go on tv. I don't know whether this is biblical or not, but maybe satan is not permitted by God to reveal himself, on saying that though, soe people have the spiritual gift of seeing angels, and therefore as the devil was an angel, of seeing him. Ultimately though, the devil is doing a good enough job of taking the glory away from Jesus. Every day there are reports on the TV of oeople being killed and raped. The devil loves that! When those reports are coming out people turn the finger of blame to Jesus and the devil laughs.
With all due respect, I don't see this as rational at all.
One last post today for me:
Christians believe such things as Jesus "casting out" demons and tossing them into swine.
Fundies to this day have told me, face to face, that demonic physical manifestations occur that include miraculous activity.
Satan is held as a being that wants Maxium Glory for himself, rather than Jesus.
The best possible way to acheive maxium glory is to go on tv and miraculous heal a non-Christian so as to bring glory to a "false religion", and I'm not talking about healing a typical ailment. I'm talking about a bonafied miracle like a hand being regrown instantly. This is something that would bring maxium glory away from Jesus.
Your post is full of bald assertion. I think mine delineates a clear and testable hypothesis based upon the texts of the bible and the doctrines of fundamentalists of today.
To postulate that God doesn't allow this or that or that Satan is doing a good enough job is to enter in a world where you must apply the principle of parsimony:
What is the more likely answer to the issue? What requires less fantastical analysis and less complication?
A) No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic activity exists because of a tenuous balance forced by God and his legions of angelic beings fighting spiritual tooth and nail against demonic forces, such that only naturalistic manifestations that bare no resemblance to anything clearly out of the ordinary (like hands regrown) are ever caught on video tape or live feeds.
or
No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic acitivity exists because it does not exist.Seems like a reasonable question to me, given fundi doctrine and bible reading.
-UV
I agree with UV. Satan is merely an archetype of the imagination; the personification of all that's evil.
If Satan were smart,and really wanted to defeat God, then he would summon his legions of demons and retire to the furthest reaches of the universe. This way God would only be reaping the souls of those who had no temptations. Christian doctrine holds that God desires that we come to Him by CHOICE. Without the devil there to blind our eyes, or lead us off into sin, there would be no other choice BUT God.
It's kind of like two people holding the ends of the same rubber band, and stretching it. If one let's go, it will snap the other one in the face.
Posted by: channelcat Mar 24 2004, 08:10 AM
QUOTE (UV2003 @ Mar 24 2004, 07:43 AM)
[
What is the more likely answer to the issue? What requires less fantastical analysis and less complication?
A) No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic activity exists because of a tenuous balance forced by God and his legions of angelic beings fighting spiritual tooth and nail against demonic forces, such that only naturalistic manifestations that bare no resemblance to anything clearly out of the ordinary (like hands regrown) are ever caught on video tape or live feeds.
or
No irrefutable documentation of demonic or angelic acitivity exists because it does not exist.Occams Razor :The simplest and most direct answer is usually the right one.
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 08:13 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 07:56 AM)
UV no evidence exists to refute that the world was created by a God. Yet you still believe that it wasn't. Lack of evidence does not equal impossibility. My hypothesises can be proven by methods that you would not believe in, or would make excuses about, therefore you will never find the evidence to answer your question.
What evidence do you have that this "god" was not Allah?
I did not argue at any point that the world was not created by "a god" or sorts. My argument was about the physical manifestation of the Christian idea of Satan and his minions.
Edit: You put words in my mouth here saying that I said the world not created by a god. I challenge you to find in this thread anywhere that I said the world was not created by a god. I'm not aware that I have ever even said that on this site, but I could be wrong, but know I didn't say it on this thread. I think the universe itself could be some type of "god", but I don't know. I just don't think satanic and angelic beings are dueling it out.
Posted by: NoReligion Mar 24 2004, 08:19 AM
ok, but i used that as an example. Do you really want an answer? Cause i've tried to give you my opinion and you've either dismissed or ignored it. I've already answered the manifestation part- all evil on this world is an example of satan. People have free will and in order for them to have free will God cannot let satan run around appearing to peope as it would be forcing them to believe, thus creating contradictions! And we don't want those now do we!?
Posted by: UV2003 Mar 24 2004, 08:24 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 08:19 AM)
ok, but i used that as an example. Do you really want an answer? Cause i've tried to give you my opinion and you've either dismissed or ignored it. I've already answered the manifestation part- all evil on this world is an example of satan. People have free will and in order for them to have free will God cannot let satan run around appearing to peope as it would be forcing them to believe, thus creating contradictions! And we don't want those now do we!?
I've dismissed it using biblical thinking and fundi doctrine that does not add up.
As an aside, what makes Satan in the bible more real than Satan in the Quran?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/satan.htm
I don't claim that link is truth, but it just illustrates religious battles between differing faiths.
I've posted about this many times: how do the Christian and the Muslim sit down at the table with their holy books and convince the other one that his or her faith is objectively wrong?
-UV
Posted by: Neil Mar 24 2004, 08:26 AM
QUOTE (NoReligion @ Mar 24 2004, 09:56 AM)
UV no evidence exists