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ExChristian.Net Open Forums > Debating with Christians > All You Know About Me Is That I Am A Christian...
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 26 2004, 03:23 PM
Jarcaines-
I think you're the victim of 2000-odd years of misinterpreted mythology.
...but if you want to try to make a point about prejudice, go ahead.
Posted by: 603269726 Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM
and what if i were to say i was a satanist? what would you think of me?
ok. now how many fingers am i holding up?
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Absolutely nothing...
Welcome aboard.
What'd you expect? Bitter condemnation?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 03:34 PM
QUOTE (TheBackwoodsCreep @ Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM)
and what if i were to say i was a satanist? what would you think of me?
ok. now how many fingers am i holding up?
I would say, you must wroship satan, because that is all I know of satanists.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 03:37 PM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Absolutely nothing...
Welcome aboard.
What'd you expect? Bitter condemnation?
It should mean something though.
Thanks for the welcome.
Posted by: 603269726 Jan 26 2004, 03:38 PM
tee hee! yer cute! and no i don't worship satan.
you never guessed how many fingers i was holding up... (it was 4)
Posted by: =Veritas= Jan 26 2004, 03:42 PM
You guys crack me up - your sarcasm, your cleverness - way to welcome a new Christian to the site! So funny...
Hi Jarcaines,
I'm a Christian so my view of you would probably be considerably different than most others here.
Just wanted to say welcome! Words of advice:
#1. Don't be a "hit and run" Christian (post and leave) - and...
#2. Don't come here for the purpose of conversion by a "turn or burn, or you'll die and fry" attitude. It won't be accepted by anyone - including me.
Other than that, I hope you'll stay a while and get to know everyone!
Welcome brother,
Jay
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (TheBackwoodsCreep @ Jan 26 2004, 03:38 PM)
tee hee! yer cute! and no i don't worship satan.
you never guessed how many fingers i was holding up... (it was 4)
1. what makes me cute?
2. Then are you a Satanist?
I got this from dictioary.com: Sa·tan·ism
Pronunciation Key (stn-zm)
n.
The worship of Satan characterized by a travesty of the Christian rites.
3. my guess was 5 so I guess I was wrong.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 03:50 PM
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 26 2004, 03:42 PM)
#1. Don't be a "hit and run" Christian (post and leave) - and...
#2. Don't come here for the purpose of conversion by a "turn or burn, or you'll die and fry" attitude. It won't be accepted by anyone - including me.
Other than that, I hope you'll stay a while and get to know everyone!
Welcome brother,
Jay
your two points told me more about how people view people who call themselves "christians" then any of the other responses, Thanks
and thanks for the welcome.
Posted by: 603269726 Jan 26 2004, 03:58 PM
1. you're cute cuz "stone cold said so"
2. i am more satanist then anything else (more along the lines of Anton Szandor LaVey... i do not believe in any "devils" or "gods")
3. better luck next time ;)
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 04:03 PM
QUOTE (TheBackwoodsCreep @ Jan 26 2004, 03:58 PM)
2. i am more satanist then anything else (more along the lines of Anton Szandor LaVey... i do not believe in any "devils" or "gods")
I guess I am confussed on how you can call yourself a Satanist, when you don't beleive in Satan.
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Jan 26 2004, 04:21 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Absolutely nothing...
Welcome aboard.
What'd you expect? Bitter condemnation?
It should mean something though.
Thanks for the welcome.
OK, tell me what it ought to mean to me.
BTW, LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in Satan - they believe that the satanic archetype (knowledge, ego, individuality) is an ideal modis operandi. And I was not being sarcastic. Your Christianity means absolutely nothing to me. Your character is much more important, and I will treat you based on that alone.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 26 2004, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:37 PM)
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 03:26 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Absolutely nothing...
Welcome aboard.
What'd you expect? Bitter condemnation?
It should mean something though.
Thanks for the welcome.
OK, tell me what it ought to mean to me.
BTW, LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in Satan - they believe that the satanic archetype (knowledge, ego, individuality) is an ideal modis operandi. And I was not being sarcastic. Your Christianity means absolutely nothing to me. Your character is much more important, and I will treat you based on that alone.
okay, thanks for the clarification on LaVeyan Satanisim. But I don’t understand or agree that knowledge is a satanic archetype.
I am glad that you would judge the person I am on my character, that is great. But Christian as definition, should mean that I believe and have accepted Christ, no more, no less.
Posted by: pitchu Jan 26 2004, 04:55 PM
Suppose someone came up to you and said, "All you know about me is that I am a Hun, what do think that means about who I am?"
For myself, I'd sure be curious as to why that person would choose to include himself under such a wantonly destructive banner, then I'd wait for the inevitable explanation that Huns have done a lot of wonderful things nobody gives them credit for, and how the Hun Way is the one true Way, except there are some Huns who aren't "true" Huns, like the maurading Hun hordes.
Then I'd probably get bored.
Posted by: MalaInSe Jan 26 2004, 05:01 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:50 PM)
QUOTE (JayS8NT @ Jan 26 2004, 03:42 PM)
#1. Don't be a "hit and run" Christian (post and leave) - and...
#2. Don't come here for the purpose of conversion by a "turn or burn, or you'll die and fry" attitude. It won't be accepted by anyone - including me.
Other than that, I hope you'll stay a while and get to know everyone!
Welcome brother,
Jay
your two points told me more about how people view people who call themselves "christians" then any of the other responses, Thanks
and thanks for the welcome.
Actually, it should say something to you about the majority of people that identify themselves as Christian and post on these boards.
Jay, from my rather limited visiting of the boards these past few weeks, seems to be outside of this majority, as do stank and reach.
The two types Jay mentions seem to actually be one type with two obvious character traits.
Ren
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Jan 26 2004, 05:21 PM
QUOTE
okay, thanks for the clarification on LaVeyan Satanisim. But I don’t understand or agree that knowledge is a satanic archetype.
OK, you could probably find a copy of the LaVey Satanic Bible online, or you could try http://www.satanism101.com if you want to understand their interpretation of knowledge as a Satanic archetype.
QUOTE
I am glad that you would judge the person I am on my character, that is great. But Christian as definition, should mean that I believe and have accepted Christ, no more, no less.
Well, I'm glad you find meaning in it. If it brings out the best in you, I cannot argue with success.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 26 2004, 05:48 PM
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
Actually, it should say something to you about the majority of people that identify themselves as Christian and post on these boards.
Exactly.
Now, Jarcaines, I am an ex-christian. What do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe ex-christian.
Posted by: For your eyes only! Jan 26 2004, 06:33 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Been checking with my illuminati sources deep undercover and they say they're onto something, and will be getting back with us real soon!
O here it is now...I'd guess you're a graphic designer from Olympia, WA who's into Art, Music, Faith, Hiking, Climbing and has a lot of posts over here-> http://www.relevantmagazine.com/boards/profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1246&sid=2d0da99d3946258a9faf8ad95a35335b
Posted by: For Your Eyes Only! Jan 26 2004, 06:38 PM
QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 26 2004, 05:48 PM)
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
Actually, it should say something to you about the majority of people that identify themselves as Christian and post on these boards.
Exactly.
Now, Jarcaines, I am an ex-christian. What do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe ex-christian.
Cat Stevens,
Is it really you!!! Welcome back! er, i mean welcome to the board.
Posted by: chefranden Jan 26 2004, 07:22 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 05:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Odd way to introduce yourself, but effective.
Joe is a poor deluded son of a bitch, but as to who you are I dassn't know.
Welcome.
Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 26 2004, 07:40 PM
Welcome Jarcaines,
I only got the answer to the music question. Good choices!
QUOTE
U2
Ben Harper
Coldplay
Dave Matthews Band (select few songs)
Bob Marley (select few songs)
Collective Soul
David Grey
Depeche Mode (very spiritual, really)
Indigo Girls (beleive it or not)
Jack Johnson
Johnny Cash
Moby
Bob Dylan
Natalie Merchant
Radiohead
REM
Simple Minds
The Call
The Cranberries
Van Morrison (defnitely)
Marvin Gay
Actually I cheated by reading the link someone posted. Damn, you got a lot of posts, but I got lucky and found that answer on page two. I'll read further for the next clues if you really want the answers. Is this a test or something?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 09:08 AM
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 05:21 PM)
If it brings out the best in you, I cannot argue with success.
What if Christ does?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 09:10 AM
QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 26 2004, 05:48 PM)
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
Actually, it should say something to you about the majority of people that identify themselves as Christian and post on these boards.
Exactly.
Now, Jarcaines, I am an ex-christian. What do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe ex-christian.
It tells me that somewhere along the line you were turned off by Christianity and then I think, they this guy is not much diferent then me.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 09:11 AM
QUOTE (chefranden @ Jan 26 2004, 07:22 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 05:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
Odd way to introduce yourself, but effective.
Joe is a poor deluded son of a bitch, but as to who you are I dassn't know.
Welcome.
Hahaha, good post, this made me laugh!
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 09:13 AM
QUOTE (PriorWorrier @ Jan 26 2004, 07:40 PM)
Welcome Jarcaines,
I only got the answer to the music question. Good choices!
QUOTE
U2
Ben Harper
Coldplay
Dave Matthews Band (select few songs)
Bob Marley (select few songs)
Collective Soul
David Grey
Depeche Mode (very spiritual, really)
Indigo Girls (beleive it or not)
Jack Johnson
Johnny Cash
Moby
Bob Dylan
Natalie Merchant
Radiohead
REM
Simple Minds
The Call
The Cranberries
Van Morrison (defnitely)
Marvin Gay
Actually I cheated by reading the link someone posted. Damn, you got a lot of posts, but I got lucky and found that answer on page two. I'll read further for the next clues if you really want the answers. Is this a test or something?
These were bands that I feel have drawn me closer to an understanding of God. The Thread was for "Secular" music that you can worship to. I love all those bands, but that is the context of that thread were you found them.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 27 2004, 09:44 AM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 12:10 PM)
It tells me that somewhere along the line you were turned off by Christianity and then I think, they this guy is not much diferent then me.
Jarcaines-
Good, now that we've ascertained the minimum level of assumption, why don't you spend some time in the Testimonies of Former Christians section to find out about our individual stories.
Mine is http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=623.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 09:56 AM
QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 27 2004, 09:44 AM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 12:10 PM)
It tells me that somewhere along the line you were turned off by Christianity and then I think, they this guy is not much diferent then me.
Jarcaines-
Good, now that we've ascertained the minimum level of assumption, why don't you spend some time in the Testimonies of Former Christians section to find out about our individual stories.
Mine is http://www.vanallens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=623.
Thanks for the link, that is a very interesting story. I have to say for the most part I would agree with you and your bliefes, except the one thing that guides my search for truth, which I beleive is much bigger then a book, is Christ.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 27 2004, 11:32 AM
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
except the one thing that guides my search for truth, which I beleive is much bigger then a book, is Christ.
Interesting. Have you considered the possibility that the truth may not include Christ, and that by espousing Christ as the premise of your search for truth, you preclude yourself from finding it?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 11:37 AM
QUOTE (moorezw @ Jan 27 2004, 11:32 AM)
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
except the one thing that guides my search for truth, which I beleive is much bigger then a book, is Christ.
Interesting. Have you considered the possibility that the truth may not include Christ, and that by espousing Christ as the premise of your search for truth, you preclude yourself from finding it?
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
Posted by: Tocis Jan 27 2004, 11:38 AM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
What you are only rarely means anything. It's all what you do.
Or, to abuse the bible for an answer:
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13)
Statements of the type "I am ..." may mean something, or they may not. Another valid question of that type would be "I am an Asatruar (to be exact, a follower of Thor). Depending on what clichees and/or facts run through your head, I could be just about anything...
...oh, and before I forget it: Welcome!
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 11:40 AM
QUOTE (Tocis @ Jan 27 2004, 11:38 AM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 26 2004, 03:11 PM)
If all you know about me is that I am a Christian, what do you think that means about who I am, what I beleive, how I vote, what I drive, what I eat, what I listen too, how educated I am, ect. Tell me, what do you think about me, Joe Christian.
What you are only rarely means anything. It's all what you do.
Or, to abuse the bible for an answer:
"For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Romans 2:13)
Statements of the type "I am ..." may mean something, or they may not. Another valid question of that type would be "I am an Asatruar (to be exact, a follower of Thor). Depending on what clichees and/or facts run through your head, I could be just about anything...
...oh, and before I forget it: Welcome!
yes, I agree, I was curious to see what cliches run through your head when you hear that I am a Christian.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 27 2004, 12:21 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 02:37 PM)
through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
Jarcaines-
Excellent answer. I know better than to argue with faith.
Posted by: Consummate Deist Jan 27 2004, 12:42 PM
One last quick post 'fore I takeoff -
QUOTE
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
As a third generation Deist, who has never worshipped the Hebrew Demon and his bastard son, I can make the same statement for the Creator. I would not expect anyone to understand nor accept this on my say so, nor can I give secular proof - so to others it is meaningless, just as your take on Jesus is meaningless!
Posted by: jjacksonRIAB Jan 27 2004, 12:44 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 09:08 AM)
QUOTE (jjacksonRIAB @ Jan 26 2004, 05:21 PM)
If it brings out the best in you, I cannot argue with success.
What if Christ does?
Does what? Argue with success?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 01:29 PM
QUOTE (Consummate Deist @ Jan 27 2004, 12:42 PM)
One last quick post 'fore I takeoff -
QUOTE
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
As a third generation Deist, who has never worshipped the Hebrew Demon and his bastard son, I can make the same statement for the Creator. I would not expect anyone to understand nor accept this on my say so, nor can I give secular proof - so to others it is meaningless, just as your take on Jesus is meaningless!
but the point is that it is not meaningless to me, just as your view is not meaningless to you, but the very fact that a lot of you here talking about searching for something, talking about needing something, trying diffrent ideoligies, ect. Is a testament to the fact that there is something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
Posted by: Redshift Jan 27 2004, 01:42 PM
QUOTE
something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
Define spiritual. Do you mean that warm fuzzy feeling inside?
Posted by: brij Jan 27 2004, 02:43 PM
QUOTE
Thanks for the link, that is a very interesting story. I have to say for the most part I would agree with you and your bliefes, except the one thing that guides my search for truth, which I beleive is much bigger then a book, is Christ.
Yeah christ is right up Dionysus a dying, resurrected savior's alley.
http://www.medmalexperts.com/POCM/pagan_christs_dionysus.html
These two guys got alot to talk about, i wonder which one was telling the truth?
QUOTE
Define spiritual. Do you mean that warm fuzzy feeling inside?
The problem with a warm fuzzy feeling is everyone in every religion has them. Letting you emotions run away with you is not the best evidence for anything.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 27 2004, 03:09 PM
QUOTE
but the point is that it is not meaningless to me, just as your view is not meaningless to you, but the very fact that a lot of you here talking about searching for something, talking about needing something, trying diffrent ideoligies, ect. Is a testament to the fact that there is something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
A lot of us here are searching for something. A way to put to rest all the personal demons left over in the aftermath of leaving your sad excuse for a pathetic cult. Very few of us are looking for something to "fill the void," because there is no void. There's only mountains of residual guilt and fear left over from years of indoctrination and suppressment of ouselves as natural human beings.
There is something that we would like to think could fill that "unknown" area of our lives. For those strong, intelligent, or brave enough not to need the Jesus crutch, that something is knowledge of the universe we live in, and an isatiable driving curiosity to constantly learn and grow in that knowledge.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 03:31 PM
QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 27 2004, 03:09 PM)
[QUOTE]For those strong, intelligent, or brave enough not to need the Jesus crutch, that something is knowledge of the universe we live in, and an isatiable driving curiosity to constantly learn and grow in that knowledge.
So anyone who has a beliefe in Christ is leaning on some crutch, and lacks knowledge of the universe we live in? That sounds as closed minded as anything I have heard from a fundie.
Think beyond that, you are just taking the opposite side of what the idiots who believe in God without think about it are saying, give me a break.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 27 2004, 03:37 PM
I'm not saying that everyone who believes in X is ignorant and stupid. I was merely pointing out that "spirituality" is not the necessary component for existence that most theologians (sp) consider it to be. You seemed to convey the point that everyone is looking for some kind of fullfillment which can only be found through a spiritual medium, and I was merely contesting that.
Twisting words to fit your meaning isn't appreciated around here. Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by doing so.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 03:47 PM
QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 27 2004, 03:37 PM)
I'm not saying that everyone who believes in X is ignorant and stupid. I was merely pointing out that "spirituality" is not the necessary component for existence that most theologians (sp) consider it to be. You seemed to convey the point that everyone is looking for some kind of fullfillment which can only be found through a spiritual medium, and I was merely contesting that.
Twisting words to fit your meaning isn't appreciated around here. Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by doing so.
Be careful how you word things, becuase it took very little twisting to get that out of your last post.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 03:49 PM
QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 27 2004, 03:37 PM)
I'm not saying that everyone who believes in X is ignorant and stupid. I was merely pointing out that "spirituality" is not the necessary component for existence that most theologians (sp) consider it to be. You seemed to convey the point that everyone is looking for some kind of fullfillment which can only be found through a spiritual medium, and I was merely contesting that.
Twisting words to fit your meaning isn't appreciated around here. Please don't insult everyone's intelligence by doing so.
According to most of the testominies I read, most of you are looking for something, maybe you are one of the few who arn't, but read the testominies.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 03:52 PM
QUOTE (Redshift @ Jan 27 2004, 01:42 PM)
QUOTE
something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
Define spiritual. Do you mean that warm fuzzy feeling inside?
I mean something bigger then life, bigger then we know or can comprehend, something to grasp for, a higher meaning to all of this.
Posted by: moorezw Jan 27 2004, 04:04 PM
Jarcaines-
QUOTE
something... bigger then we know or can comprehend
I'm confused. How can we experience something that is beyond our knowledge and comprehension?
Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 27 2004, 04:16 PM
QUOTE
I mean something bigger than life, bigger than we know or can comprehend, something to grasp for, a higher meaning to all of this
Here's a question I feel confident I can say a lot of us are asking:
Why does there have to be something something bigger than life and beyond our comprehension?
Why do you need more? Why do you need a "higher purpose?" Look around you. Even our most advanced sciences know so very little about the universe we live in. There is so much knowledge to be gained it seems infinite! So why do you continue to insist that there must be more, something beyond what we already can't begin to comprehend the vastness of. Why do you constantly degrade the wonderful gift that's already been given us in the form of this life and this universe we inhabit? You make it seem as if the greatest aspect of the world and universe we live in is a trivial matter to be discussed by 3rd graders who don't know any better.
Answer me this question to the satisfaction of all here, and I'll have gained respect beyond reckoning for you.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 04:24 PM
QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Jan 27 2004, 04:16 PM)
QUOTE
I mean something bigger than life, bigger than we know or can comprehend, something to grasp for, a higher meaning to all of this
Here's a question I feel confident I can say a lot of us are asking:
Why does there have to be something something bigger than life and beyond our comprehension?
Why do you need more? Why do you need a "higher purpose?" Look around you. Even our most advanced sciences know so very little about the universe we live in. There is so much knowledge to be gained it seems infinite! So why do you continue to insist that there must be more, something beyond what we already can't begin to comprehend the vastness of. Why do you constantly degrade the wonderful gift that's already been given us in the form of this life and this universe we inhabit? You make it seem as if the greatest aspect of the world and universe we live in is a trivial matter to be discussed by 3rd graders who don't know any better.
Answer me this question to the satisfaction of all here, and I'll have gained respect beyond reckoning for you.
How am I degrading the wonderful gift of life, of the universe? I am embrassing it, searching it, learning from and about it. That is what we should be doing. I hope you are too.
"You make it seem as if the greatest aspect of the world and universe we live in is a trivial matter to be discussed by 3rd graders who don't know any better."
What the hell do you mean by this? I do not see where I wrote anything like that in any of my posts.
Posted by: MalaInSe Jan 27 2004, 04:29 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 03:49 PM)
According to most of the testominies I read, most of you are looking for something, maybe you are one of the few who arn't, but read the testominies.
The only thing I am looking for right now is a big brownie sundae with lots of whipped cream.
I keep making the brownies and eating them before I buy the ice cream or hot fudge.
Seriously, I'm not really looking for anything "spiritual." I find there's lots of places that offer "spiritual fulfillment." I have a nice social group devoted to historical recreation. The social group seems to cover anything I got out of my religious experiences without the group guilt.
Still, a brownie sundae would be nice.
Ren
Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 27 2004, 04:38 PM
Okay, time to swallow a bit o' pride.
You're right, I was making unfair assumptions with my statements about you attacking the worthfulness of the secular knowledge we have. For that, I apologize.
This is kind of a sensitive topic for me. I feel offended when someone insists that there has to be more to the universe than the unimagineable vastness of unknown that's already there. To me, at least, it's like they're trivializing the whole thing. Almost like an elementary student telling the teacher, "All this addition and subtraction stuff doesn't really matter, let's just move straight to advanced calculus."
I mean no personal offense by this, but I think Zach was right. The fact that you have concluded that Jesus is the truth and you will seek the rest of it through him tells me that you have closed your mind at least that much. You have effectively slammed the door and thrown the deadbolt on the possibility that Jesus is just another figment of myth and that actual truth resides somewhere entirely different.
Posted by: chefranden Jan 27 2004, 04:44 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines)
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
What, does he come over for tea? Did he shovel your sidewalk? Why didn’t he shovel mine? What does he wear these days? Does he still have long hair, or has he gone bald? What is this act that is absolute proof and why are you so special that you get to have the proof, and so many don’t? This sort of vague reference to, “my life” doesn’t impress me much.
QUOTE
but the point is that it is not meaningless to me, just as your view is not meaningless to you, but the very fact that a lot of you here talking about searching for something, talking about needing something, trying diffrent ideoligies, ect. Is a testament to the fact that there is something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
So what ever truth you make up inside your head should be accepted by us.? Is this your argument?
1. Some people think, “is this all there is my friend”
2. Since some people think “is this all there is my friend” there must be something else.
Therefore Jesus is real.
How do you handle the fact the millions of Buddhists and Hindus feel that this is all there is?
QUOTE
I mean something bigger then life, bigger then we know or can comprehend, something to grasp for, a higher meaning to all of this.
Do you really suppose that this sort of non-sequitur, “that which cannot be known has meaning” is any kind of answer to anything?
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 04:45 PM
Its not that I am closing my mind to things outside of Jesus, its that I have opened my mind to include Jesus. As i have already said, I can not prove Jesus from anything, I can not tell you anything you haven't already heard. All I know is what he has done in my life, and because of that I do beleive. I am not closing my mind to the fact that I may be wrong about a lot of things, but I have seen so much proof of God that it would be stupid for me (with my experinces and what I have learned) to not belive. The more I learn, the more I explore, the more knowledge I gain, the closer I feel to God.
Posted by: Jarcaines Jan 27 2004, 04:52 PM
QUOTE (chefranden @ Jan 27 2004, 04:44 PM)
QUOTE (Jarcaines)
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
What, does he come over for tea? Did he shovel your sidewalk? Why didn’t he shovel mine? What does he wear these days? Does he still have long hair, or has he gone bald? What is this act that is absolute proof and why are you so special that you get to have the proof, and so many don’t? This sort of vague reference to, “my life” doesn’t impress me much.
QUOTE
but the point is that it is not meaningless to me, just as your view is not meaningless to you, but the very fact that a lot of you here talking about searching for something, talking about needing something, trying diffrent ideoligies, ect. Is a testament to the fact that there is something that is suppose to be there, something that is suppose to fill that area of our lives, something spiritual.
So what ever truth you make up inside your head should be accepted by us.? Is this your argument?
1. Some people think, “is this all there is my friend”
2. Since some people think “is this all there is my friend” there must be something else.
Therefore Jesus is real.
How do you handle the fact the millions of Buddhists and Hindus feel that this is all there is?
QUOTE
I mean something bigger then life, bigger then we know or can comprehend, something to grasp for, a higher meaning to all of this.
Do you really suppose that this sort of non-sequitur, “that which cannot be known has meaning” is any kind of answer to anything?
Why do you think I am trying to sell christianity?, I am not trying to convince anyone anything, I am just saying these are some things that have lead me to believe in God. And, really, it is not about proof, it is about faith, proof has just lead me to a place were I can rely on faith to make me believe.
I would think about the way you respond to posts next time, this came across as very rude, if you want me to really understand you and were you are coming from, I would suggest not atacking.
Posted by: woodsmoke Jan 27 2004, 05:22 PM
Okay, I think it's about time for me to step out of this topic, because if I don't I'm going to go crazy and bash in my monitor.
You avoid issues raised by other people. You say things that are absolutely ridiculous to any logical human being. When we bring to light valid thoughts contradicting points you have made, you claim we are attacking you. Overall, you stink of fundie trying to fit in among freethinkers.
Now you're putting words in others' mouths. Chef never said you were trying to sell Xianity. You made that assumption--and an assenine one at that. Of course, if you're NOT trying to sell Xianity, that doesn't make you much of a Xian now does it? After all, that's the bottom line of the entire religion. Convert others to the truth so when Jebus rains his firey torment from the sky there will be a minimum of people roasting in the pools of molten lava he creates.
When you come to the conclusion that there are some things beyond human comprehension, you effectively close off your mind to the possibility otherwise. The early church did the same thing. Why does the sun seem to have planets orbiting it instead of orbiting us? After all, aren't we the center of the universe?
Some things are simply beyond human comprehension, my son.
Bull shit. Even that statement is a paradox. To say such is to recognize, or comprehend that there exists things outside the realm of possible comprehension. That's like saying you know that you dont' know. Cut out the middle man and just say you don't fucking know!
Besides, centuries on down the road when your "beyond comprehension" views have been disproven to the point of it being common knowledge, who's going to look the fool in history's eye?
Posted by: Doug2 Jan 27 2004, 06:03 PM
QUOTE
I have considered it, but through what he has done in my own life I know that he is not outside of the truth. I can not back it up with the bible, I can not back it up with what my parents beleive, I can not back it up with what my church says, but I can back it up with what he has done in my life.
Why do you think this is christ then? Why would it be the god of the bible if it is not backed by the bible. Could it be another god, the god of the deists, or maybe just you?
You are here, telling us that god contacted you, but that the message was only for you. Why are you telling us then? If this is your basis of reason, maybe you should tell us what it is, not so that we believe, but that we can understand your viewpoint. How, or why should we respond to "God gave me the answer, but I can't tell you what it is"? I wouldn't have a problem with this, except that you came to us and told us about it. It is not really something that can be debated, or is helpful at all.
Posted by: chefranden Jan 27 2004, 06:14 PM
Jarcaines,
Well I have to admire your politics, if not your thought process.
Sorry I’m not much into this ooy-gooy everyone has their own truth, BS. If you are going to make unreasoned statements in a forum labeled “Debating with Christians” you ought to expect some disagreements.
QUOTE ( Jarcaines)
Why do you think I am trying to sell christianity?, I am not trying to convince anyone anything, I am just saying these are some things that have lead me to believe in God. And, really, it is not about proof, it is about faith, proof has just lead me to a place were I can rely on faith to make me believe.
I don’t think I said that you are selling Christianity, but even if you were so what? Your non-commercial stance does not make nonsense into sense. You make a vague claim about how wonderful things have happened so that means Jesus. If you want to say, “isn’t Jesus wonderful, sigh” without being challenged go down to the last forum on the list.
QUOTE
I would think about the way you respond to posts next time, this came across as very rude,
I always think about my response to posts. It is a challenge but not rude. Are you up to it?
QUOTE
if you want me to really understand you and were you are coming from, I would suggest not atacking.
No, I don’t think that our relationship has developed to the understanding phase yet, but if you choose to understand challenges to your thinking on a debating forum as personal attack that is your right. It is an attack in the sense of a chess game, and I have one of your rooks and a bishop skewered on a knight fork and Its your move.
Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 27 2004, 06:34 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 03:49 PM)
According to most of the testominies I read, most of you are looking for something, maybe you are one of the few who arn't, but read the testominies.
Jarcaines,
I appreciate your unbridled exuberance for sharing your insight with us. Aren't you trying a little too hard to create a market for your faith around here? I think most of us who still pump blood are looking for some answers. That's not so unusual. It's just that xtianity didn't quite do it. Read a little more and you'll see that we're quite happy to be free of your infectious brand of faith. We just a community of real people celebrating the realization that we didn't have a void after all that needed to be filled by an oppressive faith in a myth.
QUOTE
Its not that I am closing my mind to things outside of Jesus, its that I have opened my mind to include Jesus.
If you're referring to competing or challenging claims, I think the xtian mandate demands that you reject all other faiths.
Posted by: edasher Jan 27 2004, 06:51 PM
Jarcaines,
I'm not sure why you are here. The original thread and question was (if I understand correctly) "All you know about me is that I'm a Christian."
I suppose I'm here to respond to that: Christians don't have a very good reputation, particularly here. Lots of people (myself included) have had intensely negitive experineces with Christians and their Christainaty.
Still, I've also had POSITIVE experiences with Christians and their Christainaty. My pastor is a great example: Last Sunday, after church, I told him that I was working on deconverting, and that I didn't belong in a bible study group he had invited me to. He said that he respected my search, and that he considered it gods will that he love me no matter where my search took me. He offered any help that he had.
No condemnation. No arguments. He also said that he'd still be happy to have me in his bible study because he thinks christians need to be challenged by people with questions like mine.
You've got to understand, this kind of treatment isn't at all what anybody expects when they tell you they are a Christain.
SOOOO, if you want my take? The "Christian" label has become largly meaningless. One who describes themselves as Christian claims to be a follower of Christ.
This can mean you've got someone like the pastor I described above, who treats you with respect and love, or it can mean you've got someone who wants to change your mind about something, or it can mean you've got someone is going to tell you that you're going to hell if you don't change your evil ways. I might mean someone who's going to rape your wife and children if you don't agree to convert, although a bit less now that the crusades are over.
When I called my self a Christian, I called most of the people in the above paragraph "false" christians.
Now I just think one stereo-type is just as good as the next. Some people say women are bad drivers. Some people say men are jerks.
If you tell me that you are a christian, you haven't really told me anything at all.
Posted by: Lokmer Jan 27 2004, 06:55 PM
Took the words right out of my mouth, Erik!
Welcome BTW
-Lokmer
Posted by: PriorWorrier Jan 27 2004, 07:13 PM
QUOTE (Jarcaines @ Jan 27 2004, 04:45 PM)
... I have seen so much proof of God that it would be stupid for me (with my experinces and what I have learned) to not belive. The more I learn, the more I explore, the more knowledge I gain, the closer I feel to God.
Jarcaines,
The jury's still out on these hollow-sounding claims. I guess you'll have to elaborate a little. We're a tad short on faith around here.
Posted by: michelle Jan 27 2004, 07:33 PM
Jarcaines says that Christ has done great things in his life.
I only wish that he could realize that its him who did it, not Christ. This is one of the things that bugs me with Christianity, giving all the credit to God for what you did yourself.
Posted by: edasher Jan 27 2004, 08:21 PM
I dunno Michelle. I suppose there are dangers in taking this idea too far, but I think this behaivior might be one of the positive things about Christianity. Can you imagine how annoying the typical fundy would be if their doctrine included taking credit for everything good? That'd be worse then politicians!
Posted by: For Your Eyes Only! Feb 1 2004, 07:13 AM
Jarcaines, Gone so soon?
OK, here's where the influx of concerned christians came from.
http://www.relevantmagazine.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=107221&highlight=#107221
Some selected overheard conversations for your edification.:
QUOTE
it would important for us to approach this site with the knowledge that some the responses to us generally wanting to be in community with these people will be rough at first.
anyone who goes over should do so with an extra measure of grace and humility. many Christians who have posted there seem to have been less than respectful so we have that baggage. admittedly, there are many wounded people and then some people who have poor message board skills like any message board as well.
How we should live our lives - it would avoid pages like that alltogether, me thinks.
There are christians that are accpected in their fourms but they are their to debate and not to convert.
PS: There is a Jewish guy with strong views there also.
Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers.
It seems that many are actually thanking exchristian for recommending such an enlightening website. If it were not for the picture of the little boy pissing on the name of Jesus, the anti-cross emblem, the plea for us to "avoid the addiction, say NO to religion", and the mockery of the Bible maybe I would join the bandwagon and thank exchristian for challenging my faith or giving me things to think about. I guess what I am trying to say is a basic "be careful" and realize that some of those on this site are never going to stop questioning and their intellect will always be their guide
I've been through this with Freedom From Religion's website. These websites will challenge your faith and if I were to live my life based on my reasoning and intellect I would never follow Jesus because it doesn't make sense and the Bible doesn't add up, it is only faith that will get me through. But, I am not discouraging anyone from challenging the exchristians, that is what should be done, I just want you guys to be careful and guard your faith. I look forward to your feedback.
From my experience, reasoning and intellect hardly makes sense in the end and doesn't add up either
The common denominator I saw while reading is that people left Christianity because of other people and their lame, selfish, dogmatic, insignificant views on how Christianity is and how they feel the need to make everyone else fit into that mold as well
I have joined and started posting over there, it is very interesting.
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 11:05 AM
QUOTE (For Your Eyes Only! @ Feb 1 2004, 07:13 AM)
anyone who goes over should do so with an extra measure of grace and humility.
In other words, "We shouldn't behave with these people the way we usually do with others."
I would expect a serious Christian to show their very best behavior all the time, with anyone, regardless of who they may be.
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 11:16 AM
QUOTE (For Your Eyes Only! @ Feb 1 2004, 07:13 AM)
From my experience, reasoning and intellect hardly makes sense in the end and doesn't add up either
"I have had difficulty in understanding complex things, therefore, I come to the intellectual conclusions that these complex things are not valid, and that other people could not have done a better job at it than I have, and even if they did, I still should not trust their conclusions."
This reminds me of the mentally challenged guy who's struggling with a complex tax form. Eventually, he gets frustrated and says,
"This tax form is stupid!
Well, *something* is certainly stupid, but I don't think it's the tax form.
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 11:47 AM
QUOTE (For Your Eyes Only! @ Feb 1 2004, 07:13 AM)
The common denominator I saw while reading is that people left Christianity because of other people and their lame, selfish, dogmatic, insignificant views on how Christianity is and how they feel the need to make everyone else fit into that mold as well
The common denominator?
The common denominator????
Here we go again. Another dingaling comes over, reads a few posts and thinks that the reason we all left is the same reason that they have had embedded in their heads by incompetent and ignorant apologists. Once again, we see some damned Christian wanting to earn brownie points with God, so they use people like us as their stepping stones to Glory.
For me, the issue of the rotten behavior of Christians is an extremely important issue, but it's certainly not the reason why I left. I was aware of atrocious behavior of Christians when I was a Christian.
The things that gave me the most impetus out of Christianity were the Biblical errors, flaws, ignorances, lies and inescapable immorality of the supposed God of the Bible.
The more I really studied my Bible, the more I became convicted that the entire faith is a shameless pack of lies built on a foundation of styrofoam.
I didn't leave because of the bad behavior of other Christians: I left because it became thunderously clear that Christianity is a thoroughly false religion!
With the tremendous amount of information available on this site, these blind idiots keep coming over here with the attitude that they already know all they need to know about us, and, showing the true shallowness of what they call "love", don't even care enough about us as people to make the effort of doing any actual reading before they pop up with one of their form letters.
"It hurts me deeply (sniffle) to see that you all have been abused by Christians so much that you left the One True Faith."
Fuck off, you transparent liars! If you were everything you claim, you wouldn't be coming to us from such an obviously uncaring and self-absorbed standpoint.
When you learn to speak truth, and learn to behave in a straightforward manner, I will welcome you, regardless of your beliefs. But until then,
FUCK OFF!
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 12:34 PM
By the way, thanks to For Your Eyes Only for exposing that agenda!
Posted by: woodsmoke Feb 1 2004, 12:58 PM
Preach it, brother Loren!
*snicker*.....*chuckle*......BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Why does it not surprise me that one must register in order to post over there? I would swear Dave's forums are the only ones on the entire fucking 'net which have the option of posting as a guest.
QUOTE (Loren)
Here we go again. Another dingaling comes over, reads a few posts and thinks that the reason we all left is the same reason that they have had embedded in their heads by incompetent and ignorant apologists. Once again, we see some damned Christian wanting to earn brownie points with God, so they use people like us as their stepping stones to Glory.
For me, the issue of the rotten behavior of Christians is an extremely important issue, but it's certainly not the reason why I left. I was aware of atrocious behavior of Christians when I was a Christian.
I told him as much in the thread he started here. Not that he was in any mind whatsoever to listen. He did his divine duty, preached the "truth" to us poor ignorant heathens, then moved on. No reason to complicate things by opening his mind to the possibility of learning. Can't have that.
What really got to me was the member over there who made the honest admission that the bible and Xian doctrine/dogma clearly do not honestly and logically add up--then turned completely around and blatantly declared that's why he's not honest or logical about it! He's so far gone he's to the point at which he'll openly--and possibly even proudly--admit that he has just turned off his brain to the possibilities and through totally blind faith believes simply because he wants to.
And these people see fit to criticize us? Am I the only one seeing a flaw in this pattern?
I was going to post a response to their thread, letting them know how we've come to detest the popular Xian notion that everyone who leaves their cult does so due to personal offense or hurt at the actions of other Xians, but of course I would have to register to do that. As the likelihood that I'll ever even look at that site again, let alone contribute to the discussions, is slim to none, I just don't consider it worth the effort. If they really care that much, they can come over here and duke it out with us on our home turf--where they won't have to register to post.
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 02:12 PM
QUOTE (woodsmoke @ Feb 1 2004, 12:58 PM)
I told him as much in the thread he started here. Not that he was in any mind whatsoever to listen. He did his divine duty, preached the "truth" to us poor ignorant heathens, then moved on. No reason to complicate things by opening his mind to the possibility of learning. Can't have that.
What really got to me was the member over there who made the honest admission that the bible and Xian doctrine/dogma clearly do not honestly and logically add up--then turned completely around and blatantly declared that's why he's not honest or logical about it! He's so far gone he's to the point at which he'll openly--and possibly even proudly--admit that he has just turned off his brain to the possibilities and through totally blind faith believes simply because he wants to.
And these people see fit to criticize us? Am I the only one seeing a flaw in this pattern?
I was going to post a response to their thread, letting them know how we've come to detest the popular Xian notion that everyone who leaves their cult does so due to personal offense or hurt at the actions of other Xians, but of course I would have to register to do that. As the likelihood that I'll ever even look at that site again, let alone contribute to the discussions, is slim to none, I just don't consider it worth the effort. If they really care that much, they can come over here and duke it out with us on our home turf--where they won't have to register to post.
I recall you telling him the various ways it could go, Woodsmoke. I thought it was interesting to watch the steady deterioration of the original high ethical tone he started with. It was almost a mathematical curve. Interesting to watch. In the unlikely event that any of them come back, I'll haul out Uncle Loren's Patented BFS Scale and show them how it works.
I saw the same thing you did, where that eedjit is proud of how virtuous he is for wisely refraining from the awful vice of thinking.
Really, what can you say? Man, oh man.
I'm certainly not going back to that website. What reason? Better things to do. (like play video games!)
We'll see if the boarding party has actually retreated or not. If not, I gots me my sword, and I likes to use it!
Posted by: Reach Feb 1 2004, 02:27 PM
QUOTE (Loren @ Feb 1 2004, 02:12 PM)
We'll see if the boarding party has actually retreated or not. If not, I gots me my sword, and I likes to use it!
Just for your Loren ~ Not to encourage the use of your old sword but just to pass along a quote. I've no idea who said it but I like it. Hope it flies.
Dip the sword in honey and drive it deep.
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 02:47 PM
QUOTE (reach @ Feb 1 2004, 02:27 PM)
Dip the sword in honey and drive it deep.
EEEUWWWWWWW!!
Thank you, dear!
Posted by: Loren Feb 1 2004, 02:59 PM
Hey! Now my sword is all covered with ants! There are clouds of insects following me around! Now I can't get the damned thing out of the scabbard! Hell! Now I'm going to have to explain to the guy at the sword shop about the honey. This is going to be more embarrassing than when I had to explain how the peanut butter sandwich got jammed in the vcr.
Posted by: moorezw Feb 1 2004, 03:32 PM
QUOTE
This is going to be more embarrassing than when I had to explain how the peanut butter sandwich got jammed in the vcr.
Food does not dock!
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