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Open Forums for ExChristian.Net > Rants and Replies > All positive press for my old pastor

Posted by: nonni Feb 21 2005, 02:58 PM

My old pastor, televangelist Joel Osteen, is getting really really popular now that he's a bestselling author (Your best life now). As some of you may know, my old church Lakewood church has taken posession of the old Houston Rockets basketball arena, and are doing millions of dollars of renovations to it so it can "look more like a church". (To which I say, what the fuck, just take down the scoreboards and give it a fresh coat of paint). But Joel and Lakewood church announced during my last weeks of church attendance that the renovations to the old compaq center were going to cost 75 million dollars. I left shortly after watching a good friend of mine break down in tears because she could not afford to give the asked 2400 dollar pledge (above your tithe of course). While she was breaking down, about ten people were praying around her, but they weren't praying that she would feel better about not being able to give (and be let off the hook), they were praying that she get the money to "be obedient" and give. I never went back to church, and that was over a year and a half ago.
Now that the compaq center is almost complete and Joel is a best selling author, he is getting a lot of press. He has been on the O'Reilly factor, several news clips, paper articles, and so on. I have been following the press, and am rather sickened to hear that none of it is negative. In fact, the total renovation costs of the old compaq center have gone up from 75 million dollars to 100 million dollars. AND, from recent press, it seems like church attendance has gone down. They used to give attendance numbers at 35,000 people per week, and recent press keeps quoting it nowdays as 25,000 people per week. The press keeps talking all sweet about the church and the ministry. I totally wish someone would give some negative press for once. And I am NOT talking about some other fundies trying to point out what a "heretic" Joel is- I am talking about a real, sensible person, exposing how the people are tricked and manipulated into giving him TONS of money when many there are quite poor themselves. I want it to be exposed the people there who have had serious and life threatening illnesses and were shunned for being "evil" just for not having been healed in an instant. I also wish someone would expose the many times Joel's wife Victoria stood up there and stated that the only way to get out of debt was to give above your tithe, and how God "can't" bless you if you don't tithe.
But all the press is fluffy bunny.

Although, I must admit, Bill O'reilly did a great job of trying to piss Joel Osteen off.

Posted by: Rhodacat Feb 21 2005, 03:19 PM

Fuck I hate that guy. He has that put on "just a good ole down home boy" bullshit expression on his face all the time!!!!

Posted by: Amethyst_Moonstar Feb 21 2005, 03:52 PM

QUOTE

I left shortly after watching a good friend of mine break down in tears because she could not afford to give the asked 2400 dollar pledge (above your tithe of course).

OMG. I haven't heard of many churches pressuring people that much. Don't they realize that most people just don't make that much money? Jeez.

Posted by: nonni Feb 21 2005, 04:03 PM

I think they do realize it, but they have the right arguments to back their claims up. Every service, Joel's wife Victoria would get up and do a five minute "Why you must tithe" shpeal. She often used the "Now don't say you can't afford to tithe- You can't afford NOT to tithe". Because of course, if you tithe then God will prevent the demon of poverty upon your life. The same was said for any asked offering (offerings were given above the tithe). If it was asked by the church officials, it was to be considered a commandment to be obeyed.

Posted by: nonni Feb 21 2005, 04:17 PM

QUOTE (Rhodacat @ Feb 21 2005, 03:19 PM)

Fuck I hate that guy. He has that put on "just a good ole down home boy" bullshit expression on his face all the time!!!!

My mother thinks he's cute.

Posted by: Reach Feb 22 2005, 08:14 AM

QUOTE (nonni @ Feb 21 2005, 02:58 PM)

The press keeps talking all sweet about the church and the ministry. I totally wish someone would give some negative press for once. And I am NOT talking about some other fundies trying to point out what a "heretic" Joel is- I am talking about a real, sensible person...

My favorite Osteen links...

http://www.iconbusters.com/iconbusters/docs/letter/letter.htm

http://www.internetmonk.com/archives/2005/01/019842.html

http://cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm

You may not like where the bad press is coming from, Nonni, but until someone else comes along, cares enough about this and is willing to take the time to expose this kind of stuff, we will have to be content that there are some honest dissenters in the crowd, even if they are Christians.

Quite often, it's the insider who has the greatest story to tell. The press likes the guy because he preaches a positive attitude type of message and does not speak much of Jesus Christ and the attendant cost of commitment. And the press does not attend his church.

Better the church police some of her own than the same be left unchecked.

Posted by: nonni Feb 22 2005, 08:37 AM

I know, reach. I have seen those and they are hilarious. In fact, the first time I saw them, I was still a Christian, going to Lakewood, and I started freaking out because I wasn't "really" Chrisitan. Lol.

Of course, if anyone ever did come forward with some article or editorial, Lakewood church would just brush them off as "from the devil".

Posted by: nonni Feb 22 2005, 08:52 AM

I also wanted to say this:

The main reason why those other fundies want to trash Joel Osteen so badly, is simply because he *is* positive. To them, anything positive that tells people they can have dreams and aspirations in this life is not "really" Christian. The positivity is what drew me to this ministry in the first place, to the point where I wanted to be a minister myself, just like Joel. (Not on TV, though, lol).
There are many people at Lakewood who come from really crappy lives. A lot of people who were abused as children, had long lines of bad luck, a lot who come from the po-dunk back country in a trailor and from the inner city ghettos. To most of the friends I had at Lakewood, this was the first ever positive force in their lives, whether they had Christian backrounds or not.

So when they (and I) started hearing the preaching that, in order to have this fulfilling life, they must give ten percent of their incomes no matter what, that if they don't give X amount, they are disobedient and "can't be blessed", they go along with it, and are manipulated into doing whatever the church tells them to do. I have had friends have lights turned out and lost homes so that they could "sow seeds". Countless other friends left debts unpaid, building up interest so that they could "sow seeds" and tithe. I think that when something is the only or the first positive force in your life, telling you that you are someone and that you can have a great future, you will do anything.

I, on the other hand, struggled. For me also, this was the first positive thing in my life, telling me that I could have a positive future. But I didn't feel right about giving all that money, and thank goodness the total amount that I gave over the year that I attended Lakewood was only about 200 dollars, instead of 10% of my income.

The problem that I have personally is not that Joel preaches positivity and striving for dreams in life, etc. I am still a big believer in that. The only thing that has changed is that I don't think you need Christianity or Lakewood church anymore to get it. I am still big time practicing a lot of what Joel taught in my every day life, and that's because I truly believe in it still (Without the Biblical part, lol). The problem that I had with Lakewood was the manipulation with money. The, if you really want a positive life, you must give ten percent of your income, you must give 2 thousand dollars above the tithe, you must give 75 dollars above the tithe, you must give XXX amount over the tithe. The, your debts will never be paid if you don't tithe and give. The, you will never be prosperous, you will always be poor if you don't tithe and give. The fact that most of the church members lived in poverty while Joel has a million dollar mansion... that's the problem I had.

So yes, even though this is negative press, it's still not "exposing" the place for the same thing I would. In fact, these sources that bash Joel for being "not really Christian" probably believe in tithing and giving no matter what also!

Posted by: Madame M Feb 22 2005, 09:00 AM

QUOTE

I am talking about a real, sensible person, exposing how the people are tricked and manipulated into giving him TONS of money when many there are quite poor themselves.

Read this week's edition of People Magazine. They have an expose on some shyster who was selling an investment opportunity to churches. Supposedly it was supposed to reap a 50% return in 6 months. Who would believe this, right? Well, normal looking middle class people emptied out their savings accounts, giving such large sums as 25k and even 50k to this scheme. The church kicked in like 100k of it's "own" money- which is really the money of the tithers. They were promised that the return on the money would afford the church a new olympic sized pool and a huge new gymnasium. Now, one might ask, why the hell does a church need a huge pool and a gym. But, I think the driving factor was greed, the promise of a fat return in a short amount of time and some nice updates to their middle class country club (ie: church). The shyster even sent out progress reports showing how they had already gained a 30% increase after 4 months. One couple was driving around looking at bigger houses. Apparently, they felt this all was "from God" and "God's will". While the good sheep were waiting for their returns and subsequent luxuries, the huxster was out bilking other churches and living it up with expensive cars, vacations and 3,000 bottles of champagne.

Of course, everyone is crying now that they have lost their kids college funds, retirement funds and life savings. I think that someone would have to be a sociopath to cheat people out of their hard earned money and then waste it on luxuries. But, I also think that people have got to stop losing their common sense just because something is attached to their religion or God, or they are all worked up after an emotional sermon. I felt sorry for them but wanted to slap them.

It was noted that it is easiest to bilk people out of their money when religion is attached. Benny Hinn was also featured briefly, but he was just complaining that he also has been bilked by this guy. Which is funny, coming from Hinn, the master bilker himself.

Posted by: Reach Feb 22 2005, 09:17 AM

QUOTE (Madame M @ Feb 22 2005, 09:00 AM)

Benny Hinn was also featured briefly, but he was just complaining that he also has been bilked by this guy. Which is funny, coming from Hinn, the master bilker himself.

I daresay that Benny Hinn deserved it! Serves him right!

Posted by: Reach Feb 22 2005, 09:24 AM

QUOTE (nonni @ Feb 22 2005, 08:52 AM)

The fact that most of the church members lived in poverty while Joel has a million dollar mansion... that's the problem I had.

So yes, even though this is negative press, it's still not "exposing" the place for the same thing I would.

That's the problem I had with him, too. I believe that the clergy ought to live at about the same economic level as the people they serve.

You are good at writing, Nonni. Why don't you put together a nice human interest piece on leaving Lakewood behind, why you left and what beliefs you found meaningful enough to retain. Perhaps one of the local papers would like to print it for you. Just a thought...

Reach

Posted by: Godless Wonder Feb 22 2005, 09:39 AM

Your best bet for some bad press for Joel Osteentatious is probably http://www.houstonpress.com/.

Though, I suppose they've http://www.houstonpress.com/search/results?search_keyword%3Astring=Joel+Osteen&Submit=GO.