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Posted by: Baal Jan 4 2004, 03:02 AM
...how many of u practice other religions when u stop believeing in christianity and why?
Posted by: michelle Jan 4 2004, 06:40 PM
if all religions include an unseen higher power then I would have to say no religion
Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 06:57 PM
Well I switched from Christianity to Deism because I find the concept of a Creator appealing. I have always thought that there was some sort of existential nihilism about atheism or anything like a non-theistic agnosticism. In fact..I thought that any kind of ontological meaning to the existence of the universe or life was pure question-begging. If I am led to atheism by pure intellect- so be it but I would rather not because I am fearful that atheism would make my life apathetic. I feel certain that there is some kind of nihilism about atheism. Any objective meaning or even moral values in life would be pure question-begging. A completely material universe would make me very apathetic.
Matthew
Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 4 2004, 07:40 PM
Hmmm...how can I pose this...Goddess-acknowledgement? I don't believe in any being that sits in judgement of me or anyone else. My knees don't bend and will never bend in supplication and I don't fear her holy wrath or vengence. In my mind any higher being really wouldn't care whether or not I kiss up to them. Worship requires just that. I see her as a divine reflection of myself. Don't know if that makes any sense or not.
Posted by: nightbreeze Jan 4 2004, 07:42 PM
QUOTE
I feel certain that there is some kind of nihilism about atheism.
Matthew, do you think that maybe atheism could be a gateway to something totally different? Like a whole new way of viewing ourselves?
Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 08:01 PM
QUOTE
Matthew, do you think that maybe atheism could be a gateway to something totally different? Like a whole new way of viewing ourselves?
You'd have to be more specific than that. A gateway to what precisely? What would a whole new way of viewing ourselves be in this case? If I sound like Nietzsche, then it's on purpose (assuming I understand him and his ideas right).
Matthew
Posted by: nightbreeze Jan 4 2004, 08:07 PM
QUOTE (Matthew @ Jan 4 2004, 08:01 PM)
QUOTE
Matthew, do you think that maybe atheism could be a gateway to something totally different? Like a whole new way of viewing ourselves?
You'd have to be more specific than that. A gateway to what precisely? What would a whole new way of viewing ourselves be in this case? If I sound like Nietzsche, then it's on purpose (assuming I understand him and his ideas right).
Matthew
I guess I am saying that maybe aheism is a way of shaving off old beliefs and paradigms. Its hard to put in words.
Posted by: chefranden Jan 4 2004, 08:09 PM
Here is a link that I think may be pertinent to the discussion.
http://www.memes.org.uk/meme-lab/DART96.HTM
Posted by: Matthew Jan 4 2004, 08:17 PM
QUOTE
I guess I am saying that maybe aheism is a way of shaving off old beliefs and paradigms. Its hard to put in words.
Even if atheism served to "shave off" old beliefs and paradigms how would that erase the inherent nihilism that I see in atheism? As far as I see it..purposeful existence..even if it's a matter of subjectivity is pure question-begging. Why should I live? To help humanity? Why should I help humanity? What does it matter? There would be no objective purpose in humanity's existence and well-being that could be established without question-begging. This is the way I have come to see it.
Matthew
Posted by: Doug2 Jan 4 2004, 08:53 PM
Matthew,
Why does everything need a finish line? Why not do something because you enjoy it? Isn't there anything you want out of life? If I understand Deism correctly, you are not getting some reward afterward anyway. How does that change your goals or purpose in life?
Posted by: likeafish Jan 4 2004, 09:30 PM
Good point Doug.
I'm going to rant:
Maybe it is not so much "Why should I live?" because you are, in fact, living now. Rather ask "now that I am alive how shall I live?" This moves things from the ontological to the existential, which is where the rubber hits the road anyway.
It's like getting in a car accident and asking "why, why, why?"
That is a normal response for a guy who ends up in a wheel chair, but eventually, I would think, there comes a time when one must decide "what now?" How do I go on? On what terms? What will I make of this situation? That is to give life its purpose through the choices you make in the way you live it out, not in finding some over-arching objective defintion for what life is, like a narrative or play you must be given your role to play in and handed a script. You must decide what the drama will be yourself. Do you want to possess your life or not?
How will asking "why" get you any closer to a purpose? You proved it yourself that it won't. It merely continues to beg the initial question of meaning, and until you see that meaning is created through your choices, through how you apply yourself to life, then you will forever get kicked back to this "why?" Pick the symbols that work for you and carry on. Everything is temporary. Life is precious.
This is important, because it will define how you deal with relationships and decisions for the rest of your life. When your girlfreind dumps you, eventually you will have to get past the why and decide you have a future ahead to think about. When your career falls apart, you will have to eventually move on to something else. Now, I'm not saying it isn't worth asking why and just blowing by it. It is imposrtant for self-awareness and so you don't retrace the same mistakes as much as possible. It is just not worth getting stuck there hoping an answer will eventually arise to give you the final answer, except maybe via negativa--what you don't want to do again. You will have to look ahead at what the possibilities are and move outinto the next moment and the next set of risk to find a new purpose.
Okay, I know everything!!! Not really, but as to your specific questions Matthew--why help humanity? Because that is the way you want the world to be, because that is the kind of person you are, because you are a good person at heart. Why isn't that enough? Why should you live? What else is there to do but live?
Steve
Posted by: Matthew Jan 5 2004, 01:28 AM
Doug-
QUOTE
Why does everything need a finish line?
Probably it's just the way I have been conditioned to look at life. I see everything in terms of function and purpose. I think that there should be a final, purposeful explanation for everthing. If not..it's question-begging all the way down.
QUOTE
Why not do something because you enjoy it?
I don't see what the point of it would be. I don't see what purpose there would be to enjoying life or activities in life. My life and my feelings about life would be mere biochemistry, no? What would it ultimately matter if I enjoyed something. A nihilistic death would rob everything of meaning and for me..each day that I would live would just be delaying the inevitable making each day of life pointless and worthless. Nothing could objectively give life meaning because everything from beauty to values would be subjective. I wouldn't see the point in attaching values to anything if the universe of matter and energy is all that exists.
QUOTE
Isn't there anything you want out of life?
What would it matter what I wanted out of life? What would it matter what anyone wanted out of life? I would be just some biochemical comglomeration..nothing more. My feelings would be the result of mere chemical reactions. No meaning, no objective values, no rhyme or reason to it. Therefore, nothing I ultimately want or feel would ultimately matter. Desire would be nothing but a chemical reaction or the consequence of such.
QUOTE
If I understand Deism correctly, you are not getting some reward afterward anyway. How does that change your goals or purpose in life?
Doug..with all due respect I don't know that for sure and I doubt anyone does, including yourself. Deism carries the possibility of an afterlife and while I am forcibly agnostic about wether there is one and what it's like, what I like is that I don't see Deism as being necessarily nihilistic, but I am afraid atheism implies as much.
Steve..
You have always been one of my favorite people to discuss deep issues like this with, so here goes:
QUOTE
Maybe it is not so much "Why should I live?" because you are, in fact, living now.
Steve, I think you might have fallen into the very trap I was trying to avoid: question-begging. The mere fact of my biological existence doesn't in itself give it any objective meaning or purpose to it.
QUOTE
Rather ask "now that I am alive how shall I live?"
Why should I ask this question? Why should I even live in a nihilistic universe? What purpose would there be to my existence? Why should I even be concerned about how to live if I can't objectively qualify my own existence in terms of ontological purpose.
QUOTE
This moves things from the ontological to the existential, which is where the rubber hits the road anyway.
And it begs the question of why someone like me would want to exist, in the process of moving to the existential.
QUOTE
That is a normal response for a guy who ends up in a wheel chair, but eventually, I would think, there comes a time when one must decide "what now?" How do I go on? On what terms? What will I make of this situation?
In order to get at that point..I would have to have answered "Why should there be a now? Why would I want to go on? Why should there be any terms and why would I want to exist to abide by these terms? Why do I have to exist to make anything of this existence? What point is there to moving on and making something positive of the situation?"
QUOTE
That is to give life its purpose through the choices you make in the way you live it out, not in finding some over-arching objective defintion for what life is, like a narrative or play you must be given your role to play in and handed a script. You must decide what the drama will be yourself. Do you want to possess your life or not?
Why would I want to possess my life? What purpose would there be in the "here and now" if it will be nihilistically snuffed out upon death? What your suggesting is to subjectively give life it's purpose, but I can't see how subjectivity in my case can move beyond begging the question. Suppose I wanted to end the drama and take my own life? Why should I live if I didn't want to?
QUOTE
How will asking "why" get you any closer to a purpose?
Asking why of itself will not get me any closer to a purpose. I would actively seek out purposeful answer and if there's no objective purpose, I would terminate my own existence- no questions asked. This is why I am terrified of atheism.
QUOTE
You proved it yourself that it won't. It merely continues to beg the initial question of meaning, and until you see that meaning is created through your choices, through how you apply yourself to life, then you will forever get kicked back to this "why?"
Only subjective meaning is created through my choices and it's mainly subjective meaning where I see all the question-begging at. But I won't ever "see" this day where somehow merely subjectivity solves the problem without any begged-questions and that will be the termination of existence for me personally.
QUOTE
Life is precious.
A begged question. If you attack subjective meaning to life in a way that becomes precious to you..I applaud you but I see no point in the subjectivity myself. It's like wine. If you like the taste of wine I am happy for you but I could never drink that stuff myself.
QUOTE
This is important, because it will define how you deal with relationships and decisions for the rest of your life.
If subjectivity is what's important..I am doomed then because my life can never have any meaning to it. On the contrary, nothing will define how I deal with relationships or decisions because I will not live with subjectivity.
QUOTE
Matthew--why help humanity?
I am all ears!
QUOTE
Because that is the way you want the world to be, because that is the kind of person you are, because you are a good person at heart.
But why would it matter how I personally want the world to be? Why would anything I want or feel matter? Who would I be that my opinion or ideas matter if I am just an organic life form, just a complex piece of matter and nothing else? No soul, no mind, just a chemical marvel of nature? Why would my life matter? Why would anyone's life matter? So far your digression has begged a huge question. Sorry Steve..but I find that there's no way of getting around the great ontological "why".
QUOTE
Why isn't that enough?
But what would it matter if I was the way I was and why should I give a damn about existence at all? I would be mere chemicals..mere cells, now matter how complex the assembly or congregation if matter is. If I am just the sum of my chemistry..then I find no reason to really live. I am just going to die anyways and so my continued existence would just delay a cold and uncaring termination to that existence.
QUOTE
Why should you live? What else is there to do but live?
Easy..quit delaying the inevitable and get my death over with.
Matthew
Posted by: Tocis Jan 5 2004, 01:31 AM
QUOTE (Baal @ Jan 4 2004, 03:02 AM)
...how many of u practice other religions when u stop believeing in christianity and why?
Well, I never was a very fervent christian, let alone a fundie, but after I turned my back on the German protestant church I went... well... see my signature
Posted by: michelle Jan 5 2004, 04:44 AM
Matthew
It's people like you that have caused me to put a dictionary on my list of favorites for the computer. lol
Well, that's a good thing, right?
I've out of school for 20 yrs.
Youre description of atheism led me to look up 2 words, although I had a pretty good idea what the words meant, its good to get specific. Sentences which are not specific cause the reading in syndrome, something I like to avoid. lol
Anyway, nihilism = existance is senseless
apathetic = having little emotion or no concern
I have to conclude that those 2 things arent present in my thinking but its good to check these things out, no?
Maybe I will come up with a list of things & people in my life that are meaningful to me. Without having been born nothing on my list could have happened. Right now I have to run to work because my twins need new Reeboks this week, my half of the rent is due, my half of the heat bill is due & I need to see my freinds at work. If there was a God I wish he would send me down a new blouse or something. I get sick of shopping for clothes at the salvation army store but if thats what it takes for the twins to get brand new stuff oh well I can handle it, Im an adult, their just kids. I do think materialism is an okay thing, some might not agree but buying what you want is one of the nice things in life to enjoy.
Also I think deism is a beautiful thing but its kinda like the wine example you gave: Im happy if you like wine but I couldnt drink the stuff myself. Is one better off beig Deist compared to atheist? Probably. Maybe. I dont know. Whatever works for you freind. Deism is a much prettier blouse than atheism but I still cant wear it. lol Have a good day Matthew, you teacher.
Posted by: Lokmer Jan 5 2004, 05:09 AM
On the subject of "needing a finish line":
QUOTE
Probably it's just the way I have been conditioned to look at life. I see everything in terms of function and purpose. I think that there should be a final, purposeful explanation for everthing. If not..it's question-begging all the way down.
This I can sympathize with a great deal, Matthew - it took me a long time to break through this sort of conditioned thinking. The reason is not merely religious conditioning I think, but it is cultural. Western culture - particularly in its American incarnation - is highly utilitarian. The utilitarian mindset requires imposed ontological purpose on activity before that activity becomes valuable. Now, I am a Western Culture junkie - there is a reason that Western culture sits atop the world financially and politically, and that utilitarianism is a part of it. But Americans, with their tradition of anti-intellectual and anti-aesthetic bias have stripped Western culture of much of its beauty, leaving as the predominant facet the utilitarian and often dehumanizing aspect of the culture. European Western culture is (and has been) far more humanistic, with an emphasis on the existential as well as the ontological. I think both are important to a sense of meaning, but that belief of mine is tempered witht he realization that even if there is a non-Theistic, a Diestic, a Theistic, or even a Christian God, any perceived ontological meaning is ultimately a subjective construct imposed from without by my culture group, my intellectual party, or whoever else I happen to be influenced by at the time. Ontological meaning is the grand illusion of Western thought, because objective reality cannot provide a purpose that carries much weight with a human mind.
Does this mean that everything is reduced to biological determinism? Perhaps. Does that matter? Perhaps not. I don't happen to believe in biological determinism. Although I think that the process of consciousness itself is understandable, I do not think that consciousness as a phenomenon is completely effable or quantifiable.
The process I hear behind your questions is one of abject terror at a vast and purposeless universe that you are finding yourself pressed to reconcile with. What you are going through is no different than what most people go through at some point between the ages of 16 and 29. It's a turning point in the "adulting" process (if I may be indulged in my wanton invention of terms) - some people never do it, some are pushed into it far earlier than others. It is part of coming into your own as a person. You are in a position of disadvantage because you have no structure to assist you. For me, Christianity was the scaffolding, and the last part of that process was dismantling that scaffolding to find what had been built behind it - and in that sense I have very fond memories of my former faith (my only problem with it, in the end, was that the object of that faith was not true). Your fear is understandable, even justified. But nihilism is not the only solution, and question-begging is not perhaps the correct label for the phenomenon of meaning.
My approach runs something like this: Whether there is a God, of any sort, or not, life is here. The fact that we can even ask about its meaning is a profound gift. Does life have an ontological purpose? I don't know. It would be nice, but whether it does or not it is a profound privilage - not an easy one, nor always a pleasant one, but without life I would not be me, and I would certainly object to that. I am a big fan of honoring gifts. Whether God is a personality or simply a name we give to the blind process of progenation, I owe it to live as best I can. Otherwise, I am dishonoring the gift.
This is where utilitarian thought breaks down. Even if the Christian God exists (let alone any other God), he certainly has not communicated the purpose of life to us. Therefore, any meaning we come up with is a mere guess - question begging. You are in the same boat as a Diest, as am I as a quasi-panentheistic agnostic, as is Steve as an atheist. A belief in a creator does not solve the problem, it simply makes it Someone Else's Problem.
You mentioned Neitzche, you should read him. Read him alongside Kierkegaard - the two of them wrestled with the same problems, in the same era, in very similar cultures, with very different solutions to the problem of meaning. Both of them have some very profound insights.
QUOTE
A nihilistic death would rob everything of meaning and for me..each day that I would live would just be delaying the inevitable making each day of life pointless and worthless. Nothing could objectively give life meaning because everything from beauty to values would be subjective. I wouldn't see the point in attaching values to anything if the universe of matter and energy is all that exists.
Au, Contraire! All value attatchments are subjective. All sense of meaning is - whether you believe in a god of some sort or not. Beauty IS subjective. That's why you can have the sort of diversity in the arts, where baroque music is tranquil to a fault, and Bono looks for beauty "under the trash" in a grungy, harshly vocoded voice - and both can move you to tears of joy and sorrow. The idea that everything is ontological - that there is the PURE form of beauty, that there is the PURE form of good - is a neoplatonic metaphysical idea, and comes from a spiritual paradigm that was later embraced by gnosticism. A death with no afterlife or no hope of one does not have to rob this life of meaning - it can just as well give this life more meaning, since life itself is rare we must do well with it what we can. None of us is guarranteed a time - either now or in any future life (not even Christianity guarrantees resurrection, it merely proffers the hope of it). We have only now for certain. Tomorrow is the gift we might not have the chance to open.
That is why we write, sing, and build. They keep yesterday for us, and stay after we are gone to remind others of who we were. As Theoden, who (having no hope of an afterlife) faced the prospect of certain death in the glittering caves said to Aragorn, "If this is to be the end, then I would have my men make such an end as to be worth a song."
QUOTE
The mere fact of my biological existence doesn't in itself give it any objective meaning or purpose to it.
And the mere fact of objective meaning or purpose does not mean that such purpose or meaning wil translate to the subjective. When existential reality and ontological reality line up, that's all fine and dandy. But such an alignment is not guarranteed, and is in fact rare. More often than not all understood ontological meaning is a retrograde projection of existential desires and decisions. The ancient Hebrews understood this. God(s) creates the Earth and everything in it, and then gives Adam the most useless job in the world: have children and tend a perfect creation. There's nothing of grand purpose in that, it's just busy-work. A structure in which Man can experience creation. In the end, purpose and meaning are only the structure with which we quantify our experience.
QUOTE
Steve said:
Rather ask "now that I am alive how shall I live?"
You said:
Why should I ask this question? Why should I even live in a nihilistic universe?
Your universe is what you make of it. There is no good ontological reason why you should live in a nihilistic universe if you do not wish to.
Having said that, eventually you reach a level in analysis where you have to take certain things as givens. You exist. That is a given. You can't do anything about the fact that you exist now. You certainly could insure that your existence will not continue, but you are helpless to prevent yourself from ever having existed. This is why Steve said that the existential questions are far more important than the ontological ones. Ontology is important for understanding, but it is useless for meaning, in the same way that science does not (and cannot) address the existence of some sort of god. You are asking a question to which there is no answer.
To this chain of reasoning, you say:
QUOTE
And it begs the question of why someone like me would want to exist, in the process of moving to the existential.
That does not beg a question. The question you just asked is an existential question. "That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulas, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence."
You ask some pretty loaded questions, which I'll deconstruct one by one:
QUOTE
"Why should there be a now? Why would I want to go on?
These questions are nonsensical in the abstract, they only take on meaning when they are concrete. Why do you want to go on (assuming you do)?
Now that you've answered that, look at your answer. Does the reason you just gave require a God construct? If it does, then so be it - there's nothing wrong with a God construct. If it does not, you have greater philosophical freedom.
QUOTE
Why should there be any terms and why would I want to exist to abide by these terms?
You assume there are terms (unless you mean basic things like death, time, etc.) when there may not be. In regards to the parenthetical, it is in the nature of things that division and differentiation make up definition. If there were no terms - basic rules of functionality, so to speak - there would be nothing to speak of.
QUOTE
Why do I have to exist to make anything of this existence?
That is a tautology.
QUOTE
What point is there to moving on and making something positive of the situation?"
None, unless there is a point that you wish to pursue. You should not live if you don't want to - death is everyone's destiny, it is also everyone's right (Heinlein). But before you throw that switch or open that vein, you should ask yourself whether a general lack of purpose is really a good enough reason to end it. It will end soon enough on its own anyway - it is here, and understanding such as can be had can only be gained through experience. If you stop your existence prematurely you eliminate all possibility that you will ever understand more than you do now.
QUOTE
If subjectivity is what's important..I am doomed then because my life can never have any meaning to it. On the contrary, nothing will define how I deal with relationships or decisions because I will not live with subjectivity.
Matthew, the very way we're constructed consigns us to subjectivity. That which we know as "fact" or "objective reality" is simply the consensus of a number of subjective beings cross-checking their perceptions through the inadequate apperatuses of their five senses extensed through the instruments they have constructed. There is still no lack of subjectivity anywhere. You will never know who or what the Creator is, you only have your best guess. I happen to think it may be a good one, but that's only my best guess. No objective reality can provide meaning, only existential reality can (and anything existential is subjective by definition). You are seeking an arithmatical formula for jazz - it doesn't exist. Everything about who you are, what you see, what you experience, is subjective by definition. If you cannot live with subjectivity or uncertainty, then you cannot live at all. You cannot prove that the words you are reading actually exist - they might only be a projection of your biochemical components into a visual hallucination through eyes you can't ontologically know you have.
Ontological reality is a contruct. It is an abstract. It is a logical theory that we use as a model because it is agreed upon and convinient, not because it really exists. On a VERY basic leve, we can never be sure. If everything we understand about the brain and mind is accurate, none of us can ever know that we are not simply brains in a petri dish hooked up to chemicals and imagining our lives. And if what we understand about the brain is not accurate, then we have no way of being sure that our reasoning process bears any relation to reality - if reality exists at all. God is not an answer to that problem, because we cannot know if our God-construct is accurate any more than we can know that we really have eyeballs. All reality is existential, that is a given of the way we are constructed. A man can drive himself crazy with these questions (many have), and wind up committing suicide. Sometimes it is best to accept the givens (such as "I exist") and move on with the existential questions rather than trying to puzzle out the ontology. There comes a point where one must be willing to shelve certain questions for later, lest one go mad.
QUOTE
Sorry Steve..but I find that there's no way of getting around the great ontological "why".
There is no such thing as an ontological "why." "Why" is an existential question, by definition. It asks for meaning.
QUOTE
If I am just the sum of my chemistry..then I find no reason to really live. I am just going to die anyways and so my continued existence would just delay a cold and uncaring termination to that existence.
Matthew, you have my phone number. Give me a call, let's get together for coffee this week. Your road sounds familiar - I've been where you are. Sometimes it's just good to have an ear.
-Lokmer
Posted by: Cerise Jan 5 2004, 03:04 PM
QUOTE
Who would I be that my opinion or ideas matter if I am just an organic life form, just a complex piece of matter and nothing else? No soul, no mind, just a chemical marvel of nature?
Not to add another question to the alarming pile of impossible inquiries in this thread but, why do some people consider a life brought forth from some higher being to be more meaningful then a life brought forth from some chemical reaction?
Why "just" a chemical marvel? Why "just" an organic life form? What makes chemicals and marvels of nature somehow less meaningful options then a pie-in-the-sky deity?
I think my life has meaning, chemical marvel or planned creature aside. Finding out a higher power created me (and random chemical reaction can't be considered a "higher power?) would not give my life more meaning just as finding out there is no higher power would not give my life less meaning.
At least, that's what I think anyway.
Posted by: michelle Jan 5 2004, 03:59 PM
And I might add that you think very well Cerise!
Wanna know what I think. I think its all been some really beautiful accident. I havent studied where we might have come from & the question is simply not important to me anymore. It seems that nobody has ever been able to PROVE exactly how it all happened anyway. I mean thats why the God story exists isnt it? People want to know how we were created, well I just dont care anymore. I'm here so I DEAL WITH IT and most days I enjoy it too. I also dont know which came first in the human mind, FEAR or WANTING TO KNOW HOW WE GOT HERE. Probably was fear. Oh who cares, Im rambling about nonsense.
Posted by: Matthew Jan 7 2004, 01:15 AM
QUOTE
This I can sympathize with a great deal, Matthew - it took me a long time to break through this sort of conditioned thinking.
What if I told you I agreed with this conditioning? That I see things in terms of an ojbective purpose to existence or existential nihilism. This just has become part of my philosophy for better or for worse.
QUOTE
The reason is not merely religious conditioning I think, but it is cultural. Western culture - particularly in its American incarnation - is highly utilitarian.
I noticed that too!
QUOTE
The utilitarian mindset requires imposed ontological purpose on activity before that activity becomes valuable.
Well a utilitarian mindset follows a pragmatic philosophy if I am not mistaken. But couldn't a realist also impose ontological purpose on activity if it means that the activity was a means to a purposeful end, with the end being realistic?
QUOTE
Now, I am a Western Culture junkie - there is a reason that Western culture sits atop the world financially and politically, and that utilitarianism is a part of it. But Americans, with their tradition of anti-intellectual and anti-aesthetic bias have stripped Western culture of much of its beauty, leaving as the predominant facet the utilitarian and often dehumanizing aspect of the culture.
Americans with an anti-intellectual and anti-aesthetic bias? This I find interesting- can I get you to elaborate on this a bit more? We can start a interesting thread devoted to this alone!
QUOTE
European Western culture is (and has been) far more humanistic, with an emphasis on the existential as well as the ontological.
It's a pity we have departed from this. I think that both are equally as important. I think we have become far too pragmatic.
QUOTE
Does this mean that everything is reduced to biological determinism? Perhaps. Does that matter? Perhaps not. I don't happen to believe in biological determinism. Although I think that the process of consciousness itself is understandable, I do not think that consciousness as a phenomenon is completely effable or quantifiable.
Agreed here. I do not think conciousness is completely effeable or quantifiable. I think biological determinism would depend on quantification of the mind. I think that it's possible that everything can be reduced to biological determinism but I think one has to argue in terms of probability. There is nothing logically impossible about it.
QUOTE
The process I hear behind your questions is one of abject terror at a vast and purposeless universe that you are finding yourself pressed to reconcile with.
Pretty much. I am deeply persuaded that there is an intrinsic nihilism inherent in an atheist viewpoint, especially when one views the universe as just the sum of matter and energy, and that the physical universe is all there ever was, is, and well be to put a Sagan-esque twist on my comment. That's why I cling rather emotionally to Deism because it's the only thing I can think of right now that really gives freethought meaning to me.
QUOTE
What you are going through is no different than what most people go through at some point between the ages of 16 and 29. It's a turning point in the "adulting" process (if I may be indulged in my wanton invention of terms) - some people never do it, some are pushed into it far earlier than others. It is part of coming into your own as a person.
If I can inject a bit of levity into this post- it's good to see that I am not alone!
QUOTE
You are in a position of disadvantage because you have no structure to assist you.
Couldn't Deism be the structure, the scaffolding so to speak?
QUOTE
For me, Christianity was the scaffolding, and the last part of that process was dismantling that scaffolding to find what had been built behind it - and in that sense I have very fond memories of my former faith (my only problem with it, in the end, was that the object of that faith was not true). Your fear is understandable, even justified. But nihilism is not the only solution, and question-begging is not perhaps the correct label for the phenomenon of meaning.
It seems to be the only solution for me.
QUOTE
Does life have an ontological purpose? I don't know. It would be nice, but whether it does or not it is a profound privilage - not an easy one, nor always a pleasant one, but without life I would not be me, and I would certainly object to that.
I would like to think that it does. But if I come to conclude that it doesn't, I can't help but think that would cause apathy on my part. I don't see any point to giving a damn about a purposeless universe.
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I am a big fan of honoring gifts. Whether God is a personality or simply a name we give to the blind process of progenation, I owe it to live as best I can. Otherwise, I am dishonoring the gift.
I can respect that you are a big fan of honoring gifts. But lacking an objective source for purpose, I would be rather the opposite. I wouldn't see the point of honoring gifts and what meaning there would be to honoring any gift of life? What does it mean to honor and why would I give a care? Who do I owe my life to live it the best I can and why?
QUOTE
This is where utilitarian thought breaks down. Even if the Christian God exists (let alone any other God), he certainly has not communicated the purpose of life to us. Therefore, any meaning we come up with is a mere guess - question begging.
Yes..I have some agnostic leanings. Deism is my best guess inference for right now. Perhaps I so long for ontological purpose that I have clinged to Deism more emotionally rather than making it a purely intellectual.
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You are in the same boat as a Diest, as am I as a quasi-panentheistic agnostic, as is Steve as an atheist.
Um..I am a Deist.
QUOTE
A belief in a creator does not solve the problem, it simply makes it Someone Else's Problem.
Actually I think it might. The agnostic in me won't allow me to assert it as though I was absolutely certain of it. I can't be and I shouldn't in the least pretend that I am. It's my best guess inference and so I have to say that it has the potential. I agree with some of the founding Fathers that belief in a Creator can provide the basis for the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To me, in a purposeless universe of pure physicalism, such natural rights would be an illusion and would have no real meaning beyond some words written on paper. The pursuit of happiness would be an exercise in futility because it wouldn't answer in my mind why would want to to live, to experience life and pursue any happiness.
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You mentioned Neitzche, you should read him. Read him alongside Kierkegaard - the two of them wrestled with the same problems, in the same era, in very similar cultures, with very different solutions to the problem of meaning. Both of them have some very profound insights.
I will. I just hope I didn't misrepresent Neitzhe with all of this babbling about nihilism in my posts. Ihave dabbled a tad bit with philosophy and I plan to make a more serious study of it in a few years down the road.
QUOTE
All value attatchments are subjective. All sense of meaning is - whether you believe in a god of some sort or not. Beauty IS subjective.
True, all value attachments are subjective. I know I should've qualified my statement. Death, for me, would rob me of any meaning because it would delay the envitable snuffing out of my existence, if death was really the end to it all.
QUOTE
The idea that everything is ontological - that there is the PURE form of beauty, that there is the PURE form of good - is a neoplatonic metaphysical idea, and comes from a spiritual paradigm that was later embraced by gnosticism.
I consider my philosophical position to be that of objective idealism. I consider it that the idealism gives ontological meaning to the objective as I see it. A purely naturalistic world of the objective, with no idealism or anything like that, is what gives me the nihilist shivers.
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A death with no afterlife or no hope of one does not have to rob this life of meaning - it can just as well give this life more meaning, since life itself is rare we must do well with it what we can.
It doesn't have to, but it does for me personally. I wouldn't dream of stopping you or anyone else if no afterlife or idealism gave your life more meaning. As I would see it, if I become a physicalist, that life is rare- so what? Why must we do well with it? If I was a pure physicalist, my cry would be "So what?". Apathy, thy name is man.
QUOTE
And the mere fact of objective meaning or purpose does not mean that such purpose or meaning wil translate to the subjective. When existential reality and ontological reality line up, that's all fine and dandy. But such an alignment is not guarranteed, and is in fact rare.
As much as I wish for it, I can't expect a guarantee. Let each man hope for what he can if he wants to.
QUOTE
More often than not all understood ontological meaning is a retrograde projection of existential desires and decisions.
If it was the retrograde projection of my existential desire, and nothing more, then honestly..I would choose not to live.
QUOTE
Steve said:
Rather ask "now that I am alive how shall I live?"
You said:
Why should I ask this question? Why should I even live in a nihilistic universe?
Your universe is what you make of it. There is no good ontological reason why you should live in a nihilistic universe if you do not wish to.
Yes. If I find myself in a nihilistic universe- I would bid you farewell. Hopefully I will not wake up to that day.
QUOTE
Having said that, eventually you reach a level in analysis where you have to take certain things as givens. You exist. That is a given. You can't do anything about the fact that you exist now.
Yes I can. I can choose not to exist- as unpleasant as that sounds to people on here.
QUOTE
You certainly could insure that your existence will not continue, but you are helpless to prevent yourself from ever having existed.
In a nihilistic universe, my extinguishment would be enough to solve the problem in my mind.
QUOTE
This is why Steve said that the existential questions are far more important than the ontological ones. Ontology is important for understanding, but it is useless for meaning, in the same way that science does not (and cannot) address the existence of some sort of god. You are asking a question to which there is no answer.
I don't necessarily agree with Steve. To me the ontological questions are just as important as the existential questions. If there is no objective purpose- there is no me. That's simply how I have come to see it. I would only agree that there is no certain answer in the same way we can be certain that the sum of any two primes will always be an even number.
QUOTE
That does not beg a question. The question you just asked is an existential question. "That is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebulas, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence."
I think it does beg a question. I think that if ontological questions are meaningless or answered in the negative (i.e. there is no purpose)..all existential questions become begged. Let me say that this is just my opinion and I don't expect it to be true for you or Steve.
QUOTE
You ask some pretty loaded questions, which I'll deconstruct one by one:
I didn't mean to load my questions.
QUOTE
"Why should there be a now? Why would I want to go on?
These questions are nonsensical in the abstract, they only take on meaning when they are concrete. Why do you want to go on (assuming you do)?
Perhaps I should rephrase them. Why should I deal with the here and now, of my physical existence? If I lack any sense of ontological purpose, to hell with any existential purpose that I subjective attach to my life. To hell with it! I wouldn't even bother! I would only want to go on to find meaning to my life only if I conclude that there is meaning behind the universe or life in general.
QUOTE
Now that you've answered that, look at your answer. Does the reason you just gave require a God construct? If it does, then so be it - there's nothing wrong with a God construct.
That's how I would operate unless I concluded otherwise. If I concluded that there was no idealism, be it a God or anything else- click-click-boom! Goodbye.
QUOTE
If it does not, you have greater philosophical freedom.
And I can leave it to you to guess what I would do with that freedom.
QUOTE
You assume there are terms (unless you mean basic things like death, time, etc.) when there may not be. In regards to the parenthetical, it is in the nature of things that division and differentiation make up definition. If there were no terms - basic rules of functionality, so to speak - there would be nothing to speak of.
I was quoting Steve. Steve said there were terms. I should've asked him what he meant by suggesting terms and give examples. Slangfully speaking-my bad.
QUOTE
That is a tautology.
Correct. My apologies for formulating it as such. I assumed that everyone would know what I meant. Rephrase: Why would I want to live so that I could attach meaning to the life I would be living? That's what I meant to ask Steve.
QUOTE
None, unless there is a point that you wish to pursue. You should not live if you don't want to - death is everyone's destiny, it is also everyone's right (Heinlein). But before you throw that switch or open that vein, you should ask yourself whether a general lack of purpose is really a good enough reason to end it. It will end soon enough on its own anyway - it is here, and understanding such as can be had can only be gained through experience.
If conclude there is none, I would also conclude that there aren't any points to pursue for me. I want only to live to see if I can find that higher ontological purpose. If nihilism is inevitable for me, then the vein comes open or the trigger gets pulled. As for asking myself wether a general lack of purpose- I have already made up my mind. This is not something that I just started thinking about last week. This is a vexing issue that I have struggled with ever since I was about 16.
QUOTE
If you stop your existence prematurely you eliminate all possibility that you will ever understand more than you do now.
If I decided to stop my existence prematurely, it would only be because I decided that more understanding was pointless and futile. I terminated the means because I foresaw meaninglessness in the ends.
QUOTE
Matthew, the very way we're constructed consigns us to subjectivity. That which we know as "fact" or "objective reality" is simply the consensus of a number of subjective beings cross-checking their perceptions through the inadequate apperatuses of their five senses extensed through the instruments they have constructed.
In other words, if I understand what you're saying, we have come to accept "facts" or "objective reality" because the majority of us can test our understanding against one another. Granted. What I meant is that if I conclude that there is no ontological purpose to objective reality..no idealism..then I would and will choose to cease existing. I agree- all value judgements are subjective but what I was getting at is that if my subjective experience convinced me that there was no ontological purpose to objective reality trying to establish my own subjective purpose to an otherwise nihilistic reality would be pointless for me.
QUOTE
There is still no lack of subjectivity anywhere. You will never know who or what the Creator is, you only have your best guess. I happen to think it may be a good one, but that's only my best guess.
Granted.
QUOTE
No objective reality can provide meaning, only existential reality can (and anything existential is subjective by definition). You are seeking an arithmatical formula for jazz - it doesn't exist. Everything about who you are, what you see, what you experience, is subjective by definition. If you cannot live with subjectivity or uncertainty, then you cannot live at all. You cannot prove that the words you are reading actually exist - they might only be a projection of your biochemical components into a visual hallucination through eyes you can't ontologically know you have.
Okay, okay, I agree. All existential questions, judgements, and so forth are subjective. I cannot prove objective reality. I am attaching a subjective meaning to it all. But I tend to think that my subjectivity is justified by a belief in idealism of some sort.
QUOTE
Ontological reality is a contruct. It is an abstract. It is a logical theory that we use as a model because it is agreed upon and convinient, not because it really exists. On a VERY basic leve, we can never be sure. If everything we understand about the brain and mind is accurate, none of us can ever know that we are not simply brains in a petri dish hooked up to chemicals and imagining our lives. And if what we understand about the brain is not accurate, then we have no way of being sure that our reasoning process bears any relation to reality - if reality exists at all. God is not an answer to that problem, because we cannot know if our God-construct is accurate any more than we can know that we really have eyeballs. All reality is existential, that is a given of the way we are constructed. A man can drive himself crazy with these questions (many have), and wind up committing suicide. Sometimes it is best to accept the givens (such as "I exist") and move on with the existential questions rather than trying to puzzle out the ontology. There comes a point where one must be willing to shelve certain questions for later, lest one go mad.
I agree. We must live with the construct of ontological reality because it's convenient and useful for us. We can never be sure, we can only refine our inferences and hope they're as well-grounded as our logic allows us to reason they are.
QUOTE
There is no such thing as an ontological "why." "Why" is an existential question, by definition. It asks for meaning.
If so..I appreciate you pointing that out to me. Perhaps I need to dwell on the matter a bit more before I agree with you. Perhaps I only thought I knew what I was talking about. Even though I am very happy when I do know that I am takling about, sometimes I have the impression that while I am close, I am not quite there yet.
Matthew
Posted by: Guest Jan 7 2004, 04:32 AM
its amazing how a simple question like "After CHristianity" can lead to such a long debate on another subject altogether ... amazing
Posted by: Matthew Jan 7 2004, 10:33 AM
QUOTE
Not to add another question to the alarming pile of impossible inquiries in this thread but, why do some people consider a life brought forth from some higher being to be more meaningful then a life brought forth from some chemical reaction?
Why "just" a chemical marvel? Why "just" an organic life form? What makes chemicals and marvels of nature somehow less meaningful options then a pie-in-the-sky deity?
I was just asking why should I attach any meaning to chemical marvels of nature or mere organic lifeforms? The comments that I have quoted seem to imply that the universe, life, and human existence have some kind of intrisic meaning apart from a Creator. I am not sure that I agree that existence as we know it has any intrinsic meaning in itself.
Matthew
Posted by: Cerise Jan 7 2004, 11:15 AM
QUOTE
I would only want to go on to find meaning to my life only if I conclude that there is meaning behind the universe or life in general.
That somehow seems very sad to me. I could not live that way. But to each his own, I guess.
I don't quite understand your apathy argument. You ask why you would wish to live the best you can if life had no Creator, but I want to ask, why wouldn't you want to live the best you can? Why wouldn't you want happiness or freedom? Why would you suddenly become apathetic without a Creator?
If I say that my purpose for living is being happy, and you ask why be happy, then I can only ask back, why not? Why would you want to be unhappy?
I guess I just don't get where you're coming from.
Posted by: Vixentrox Jan 7 2004, 11:58 AM
QUOTE (Baal @ Jan 4 2004, 04:02 AM)
...how many of u practice other religions when u stop believeing in christianity and why?
When I ceased being Xtian I tinkered around with Islam and Buddhism, neither of them seemed any better really than Xtianity. Now I am atheist or perhaps agnostic. I don't belive in gods but I don't 100% deny that it's impossible that there are supreme (to us) beings that could very well appear godlike, just like we would to ancient man.
Posted by: JezebelLeFey Jan 7 2004, 02:20 PM
QUOTE (Vixentrox @ Jan 7 2004, 11:58 AM)
<snip>
I don't belive in gods but I don't 100% deny that it's impossible that there are supreme (to us) beings that could very well appear godlike, just like we would to ancient man.
Ooh...that's deep. I guess we would with our cellphones that can call someone thousands of miles away and our knowledge of the workings of the universe (so far). Good one.
Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 7 2004, 10:52 PM
Matthew,
You said: "What purpose would there be in the "here and now" if it will be nihilistically snuffed out upon death?"
I can relate to this, it is kind of what I am going through right now. I went my whole life being a Christian until just this year and I am trying to figure out what I believe. I am at a place right now where I am thinking existence seems kind of absurd and futile if there is no greater purpose and then I just cease to exist when I die. Actually in my opinion existence with no purpose *is* absurd, there is no beating around the bush.
It seems like what you are saying (correct me if I am wrong) is that you have a problem to solve, that problem being "what is my purpose?" And if the answer is "there is none" then nihilism is the end result of existence. Which is why you chose deism over atheism. If that is correct, this seems to be my issue also, and I am kind of teetering between deism and atheism. The more I was thinking about it though I started wondering.... if our existence is just arbitrary and there is no ultimate purpose, and nihilism is the ultimate end, then is the problem of purpose really a problem that needs solving? It seems to me that if existence is futile, not only is purpose not a problem, but there are in fact NO problems. And thus, there are no problems to solve
. At least as far as the universe is concerned. Maybe as individuals though we just say fuck it and look internally for purpose and things we enjoy.Anway, thats where I am right now. I doubt that helps at all but I am pretty much going through the same thing as you....
Posted by: Libertus Jan 8 2004, 01:07 PM
QUOTE
The more I was thinking about it though I started wondering.... if our existence is just arbitrary and there is no ultimate purpose, and nihilism is the ultimate end, then is the problem of purpose really a problem that needs solving? It seems to me that if existence is futile, not only is purpose not a problem, but there are in fact NO problems. And thus, there are no problems to solve
. At least as far as the universe is concerned. Maybe as individuals though we just say fuck it and look internally for purpose and things we enjoy.Pseudo
This is basically where I stand. I don't know if there is a purpose for the existence of all things. I really don't see one, and I don't think that their is. After years of xtian indoctrination, it is hard to accept at first, but even as a xtian I never really understood any purpose. There was the individual purpose of not dying, but on a universal scale . . . "what was god thinking?"
I don't think any of us need a purpose. Purpose in our lives comes from within us, and your last sentence kind of sums it all up. Why do we need to know "why" we are here. We have a general idea of HOW we are here, and that really doesn't even matter all that much. We're here, we just have to get used to it and enjoy the opportunity that we have to be sentient beings with dreams, ideas, and the means to do whatever we put our minds to and enjoy it before it's gone.
My $.04
Xpen
Posted by: Matthew Jan 8 2004, 09:49 PM
Pseudo..you have expressed my concern very accurately. Quite frankly I am teetering between Deism and agnosticism. I want there to be purpose, but I will surrender to the concept of nihilism although it won't be easy. It might be very grudgeful. I have however realized that my problem concerning ontology and purpose needn't have a solution right now, and a friend yesterday convinced me that I might put it aside for a while and focus on problems of personal existence and purpose. I agreed to and so..it won't bother me for some time. I have declared "undecided" in regards to purpose and metaphysics and I have no problem declaring temporary agnosticism with deistic leanings.
Matthew.
Posted by: PseudoGod Jan 9 2004, 03:19 PM
Matthew,
I am glad to hear you have decided to put things aside for awhile. While I can definitely relate to the pragmatism in your earlier posts (i.e. why live if there is no ulimate purpose), at the same time I would feel bad if you were to carry out that objective. You seem like an intelligent articulate person with a lot to offer so in my opinion that would be a terrible waste.
Anyway, nihilism is definitely not an easy pill to swallow. To be honest, my reasoning behind calling myself a deist is more to satisfy my need for a beginning of the universe. I don't believe the universe is eternal, and I can't say I believe it is self-existent, so there isn't much left. However, the definition of my creator deity is simply an undefined being that created the universe. That god may have abondoned it, or that god may have been finite and has since ceased to exist. Either way, it still leaves me in the position of accepting a universe without a purpose and thus my beliefs are ultimately nihilistic. But like everything else, there are no absolutes and I may be completely wrong.
Anyway hang in there, maybe by all of us sharing our knowledge we will have some great revelation and have it all figured out!
Posted by: michelle Jan 9 2004, 06:25 PM
Im so glad somebody fianally said it. Thank you expen!
You said you dont think any of us need a purpose. I cant stand the word & heard it all the time in Christianity. Having a purpose is like living for somebody else or some person thing club ect. My purpose happened 37 yrs ago. I was born and now I live, know what I mean? This purpose stuff sounds cultish to me. I live, I love, I share, I learn ect ect.
Having a purpose just sounds like youre doing youre living for somethinh outside of yourself. I mean I know most of have to work for the basics in life plus being able to buy what we enjoy but to say that its youre purpose to be shoesalesmen or whatever. Its too weird. Maybe some people see it as their purpose to be a doctor or a lawyer I dont know but Im not over there with that & I still cant see your education & carrer choices as "your purpose"can you?
Hope that makes sense. I know what I mean but putting into writing is another thing. Im just glad you said what you did.
Posted by: Libertus Jan 9 2004, 06:49 PM
No problem Michelle. That's just how I perceive things. I hate when peopole ask me,
"Well, why do you think you're here?"
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but I am here because my mother decided to have sex (Oooh gross . . . just kidding) and she got pregnant. Ten months later (I was a stubborn one) . . . plop . . . there I was. That's why I am here. Now it's my job to figure out what to do with it.
Xpen
Posted by: michelle Jan 9 2004, 07:01 PM
Xpen,
Exactly. Figuring out what to do with it. And doing with it partly by what you want & partly by what others need (if ya have kids) Not what imaginery God wants or what other people want.
I was born the same way. My mother had sex. But they both swear that they were deeply in love
Oh well however we get here it matters not. Right? Were here, might as well have some fun. I just played some cards & now Im having a rum & coke
Posted by: michelle Jan 9 2004, 07:09 PM
ps I work 8 to 4 and everyday when that clock strikes 4:00pm
I say "okay let the celebration begin". I never spoke these kinds of words when I was a Christian. Life was one long drag across the coals. Its funny this thread is called life after Christianity. The suffering is over.
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